WEBVTT - From the Vault: Before You Could Remember, Part 2

0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:09.360
<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb.

0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.840
<v Speaker 2>And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We are

0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.880
<v Speaker 2>going into the old Vault to get an episode from

0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.919
<v Speaker 2>April sixth, twenty twenty three. This is part two of

0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.000
<v Speaker 2>our series called Before You Could Remember.

0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:28.520
<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.080
<v Speaker 1>Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:36.959
<v Speaker 1>name is Robert.

0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:45.280
<v Speaker 2>two of our series on childhood amnesia, which is the

0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.240
<v Speaker 2>name for the fact that most adults and even most

0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.040
<v Speaker 2>older children don't really seem to have any memories from

0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.240
<v Speaker 2>before about the age of three or four, and that

0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.480
<v Speaker 2>number is slightly different depending on the culture you grow

0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.880
<v Speaker 2>up in and some other factors that we may continue

0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.959
<v Speaker 2>to explore in this series, but generally, on average, around

0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:09.800
<v Speaker 2>three or four is when the memories start kicking in,

0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.120
<v Speaker 2>and even then people don't seem to have as many

0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.679
<v Speaker 2>memories as they will for later years in life. That

0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.080
<v Speaker 2>the number of memories people seem to be able to

0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:21.120
<v Speaker 2>recall sort of goes up each year after that. More

0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.280
<v Speaker 2>from year five more from six. More from seven. Now,

0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:26.280
<v Speaker 2>if you haven't heard part one yet, you should probably

0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.800
<v Speaker 2>go back and check that one out first. It is

0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:32.120
<v Speaker 2>where it is where we learned that the rob here

0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.720
<v Speaker 2>was indeed once a very naughty boy and smashed a

0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:37.600
<v Speaker 2>jar of cherries on the floor or something.

0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:39.960
<v Speaker 1>What is it you did? Well, I mean, I guess

0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.119
<v Speaker 1>the naughty part was going into the refrigerator to get

0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.720
<v Speaker 1>them anyway, because I don't think I was supposed to

0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:44.280
<v Speaker 1>have them.

0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, where you explicitly forbidden cherries or I guess it's

0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.120
<v Speaker 2>just a general understanding if you're a child you should

0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.560
<v Speaker 2>not climb into the fridge to serve yourself anything.

0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I don't know. I guess looking back

0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.240
<v Speaker 1>on it it As a child, you're often sort of

0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.280
<v Speaker 1>testing the boundaries of your world, and part of the

0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:04.480
<v Speaker 1>a memory like that is when you realize you're not

0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.120
<v Speaker 1>supposed to Apparently I was not supposed to go back

0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.240
<v Speaker 1>and get cherries for a number of reasons, some practical, uh,

0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.320
<v Speaker 1>some may be you know, arguable from from my standpoint,

0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.600
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, that's that's kind of a There's a lot

0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:18.679
<v Speaker 1>of stuff going on in those early years, which I

0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.120
<v Speaker 1>think is something we we tried to get across in

0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:24.640
<v Speaker 1>all of this is that the brain of a of

0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.120
<v Speaker 1>an infant or a small child is not inert. It

0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:31.920
<v Speaker 1>is it is extremely busy, but the brain remembers what

0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.840
<v Speaker 1>it needs to remember. And and so we're going to

0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:36.720
<v Speaker 1>continue with that in mind in this episode.

0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.799
<v Speaker 2>That is a scary and kind of thrilling headspace to

0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:44.000
<v Speaker 2>get back into the moment when you're like a child

0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.760
<v Speaker 2>and you're doing something where you you really don't know

0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:48.840
<v Speaker 2>if you were allowed to do this or not, and

0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.160
<v Speaker 2>you suspect that you might not be, but you it's

0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.240
<v Speaker 2>never been said outright, you know.

0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:55.680
<v Speaker 1>Or you just suspect that you are.

0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:55.960
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's there's so much that that comes up

0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.839
<v Speaker 1>and raise a child on this end where you're like, oh, yeah,

0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.680
<v Speaker 1>I can't really be mad at him for thinking this

0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.440
<v Speaker 1>or acting in this way because we've never said don't

0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.320
<v Speaker 1>approach whatever the topic is this ways. This is the

0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:13.240
<v Speaker 1>learning experience.

0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So to start us off today, I just wanted

0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.200
<v Speaker 2>to share something that I got to thinking about after

0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.519
<v Speaker 2>the last episode. So this particular tangent is not something

0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.040
<v Speaker 2>I have like direct scientific evidence for. It's just something

0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I started wondering about after the last part in the series.

0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:35.120
<v Speaker 2>So I was thinking about childhood amnesia in the context

0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:39.080
<v Speaker 2>of another subject we covered, I guess sometime last year.

0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.360
<v Speaker 2>It was the Hot Cold Empathy Gap. Do you remember

0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.040
<v Speaker 2>this episode, Rob, I do, Yes. This is an observed

0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:53.800
<v Speaker 2>psychological phenomenon where we not only sometimes fail to understand,

0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:58.920
<v Speaker 2>accurately model and predict the thoughts and behaviors of other people.

0:03:58.960 --> 0:04:04.200
<v Speaker 2>We not only have interpersonal failures of empathy, we also

0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:09.960
<v Speaker 2>sometimes fail to accurately model ourselves in different affective states,

0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:14.280
<v Speaker 2>so we have intra personal failures of empathy. So a

0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.440
<v Speaker 2>simple way to put this is that people who are

0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.799
<v Speaker 2>not currently in an affective state, so not currently angry

0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:25.960
<v Speaker 2>or not currently hungry or not currently sad, are actually

0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:31.599
<v Speaker 2>somewhat bad at predicting how they themselves would react in

0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:35.360
<v Speaker 2>a situation if they were actually in one of those states,

0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and vice versa. If you are currently hungry, you're not

0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.479
<v Speaker 2>very good at predicting how you would behave and react

0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:43.760
<v Speaker 2>if you were not hungry.

0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like the fear area, for example, I mean, it's

0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.320
<v Speaker 1>easy to sort of rehearse what you're going to do

0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.600
<v Speaker 1>in a certain situation, but then when the frightening thing

0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.000
<v Speaker 1>occurs you're in a different frame of mind, and you

0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.800
<v Speaker 1>may behave entirely differently. I'm reminded of there's a great

0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.320
<v Speaker 1>thing in Congo with Ernie Hudson. Do you remember this

0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.159
<v Speaker 1>scene where he's he's a very cool cucumber his character

0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.799
<v Speaker 1>the whole movie, there's a part where he's he's putting

0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:10.640
<v Speaker 1>up a brave front. But then when the scary thing

0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.920
<v Speaker 1>happens involving a gorilla like you, you turn back to

0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.960
<v Speaker 1>him and he's he's he's moved away and or he's

0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:18.880
<v Speaker 1>run away just a little bit, and ask him what happened.

0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:20.560
<v Speaker 1>He's like, I ran away. Yeah.

0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:22.719
<v Speaker 2>He had just given us a speech about how you

0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.120
<v Speaker 2>can't run away because that will show. Yeah, then the

0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.760
<v Speaker 2>gorilla will chase you, so you got to stand your ground.

0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But then I run away.

0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, So when.

0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.280
<v Speaker 2>We're not in these affective states, we actually can't relate

0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.680
<v Speaker 2>very well to the person we are when we're in them,

0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.080
<v Speaker 2>and vice versa. When we're in them, we can't really

0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.080
<v Speaker 2>relate very well to the person we are when we're

0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.560
<v Speaker 2>not in them, And so the hot cold empathy gap

0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.840
<v Speaker 2>can be demonstrated over a span of only a few minutes,

0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:54.200
<v Speaker 2>but it got me thinking about a similar self reflective

0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:58.880
<v Speaker 2>empathy gap that applies not across different affective states, but

0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.440
<v Speaker 2>different stage of life. So what I'm talking about here

0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:08.160
<v Speaker 2>is when I think back on a memory of doing something,

0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.479
<v Speaker 2>or saying something, or dressing a certain way or liking

0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.440
<v Speaker 2>a certain thing when I was young, and especially if

0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.240
<v Speaker 2>I pick something embarrassing, but not just with embarrassing things,

0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.560
<v Speaker 2>with all kinds of things, I can often find myself

0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:28.800
<v Speaker 2>totally unable to relate to that person. I say that

0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.680
<v Speaker 2>thing that you've probably heard people say of similar reactions

0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.479
<v Speaker 2>to their own past. What was I thinking? And at

0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.960
<v Speaker 2>least when I say this, I truly often do not know.

0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:45.080
<v Speaker 2>It's like I cannot internally simulate the mindset that led

0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.760
<v Speaker 2>me to wear that T shirt, even though it was me.

0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.200
<v Speaker 2>I can't relate to that person, and I can't even

0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.560
<v Speaker 2>really remember or imagine what it was like to be them,

0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.120
<v Speaker 2>even though again it was me. From what I gathered,

0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.719
<v Speaker 2>this is a common experience. It's I'm not alone here, right.

0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like basically comes down

0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.640
<v Speaker 1>to the reality that we are not consistently the same

0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.600
<v Speaker 1>across small lengths of time, much less across the course

0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:16.120
<v Speaker 1>of a lifetime. And yeah, I mean it's a you know,

0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:19.080
<v Speaker 1>a turn of phrase, what was I thinking? Sometimes we

0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.160
<v Speaker 1>can piece together some of what our thought processes were.

0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, you'd be like, well, I was a teenager

0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:26.480
<v Speaker 1>and I thought this band was cool, so of course

0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.760
<v Speaker 1>I wore that T shirt, even if I would not

0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.800
<v Speaker 1>be into that band. And now as a as a

0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:33.720
<v Speaker 1>grown person or what have you, or with you know,

0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a certain amount of clarity based on

0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.040
<v Speaker 1>where you are now in life. But other times, yeah,

0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:41.760
<v Speaker 1>you may genuinely look back and you're like, I just

0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.800
<v Speaker 1>don't know what was going through my mind. I'm not

0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.800
<v Speaker 1>sure what the thought process was. I seem to have

0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:48.560
<v Speaker 1>a different thought process going on now.

0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so obviously it's not this way with all

0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.760
<v Speaker 2>memories from different stages of life. Like I have a

0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.480
<v Speaker 2>feeling that I can re experience or relate to lots

0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.360
<v Speaker 2>of memory from childhood but not other ones. And so

0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't always know what makes the difference. But I

0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:11.920
<v Speaker 2>wonder if the proportion of memories for behaviors and experiences

0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:17.280
<v Speaker 2>we can no longer empathize with tends to increase the

0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.080
<v Speaker 2>farther back you go into childhood. I don't know this

0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.280
<v Speaker 2>is the case. I'm wondering if it does or if, say,

0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.400
<v Speaker 2>it actually doesn't go up in a linear fashion. You

0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.360
<v Speaker 2>could imagine it also like peaking in teenage years or

0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:32.040
<v Speaker 2>something like that. But so that's one question I was

0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.480
<v Speaker 2>wondering about. And then I was also wondering if there's

0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.880
<v Speaker 2>any kind of relationship between our current ability to empathize

0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.720
<v Speaker 2>with our feelings and behavior in a past event and

0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:48.720
<v Speaker 2>our tendency to actually remember that event in the first place. So,

0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.080
<v Speaker 2>in other words, are we more likely to remember doing

0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.319
<v Speaker 2>or feeling or saying something when we can empathize with it,

0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.360
<v Speaker 2>like when we can get back in that mind space,

0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.320
<v Speaker 2>and less likely to remember it when we can hand

0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.160
<v Speaker 2>no longer empathize with it. And I asked this specifically

0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.839
<v Speaker 2>because I, uh, Robi, I wonder if you have the

0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.840
<v Speaker 2>same experience. I feel like a lot of these what

0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:15.720
<v Speaker 2>was I thinking memories are prompted by external intrusions, like

0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.480
<v Speaker 2>seeing a photo of yourself that you didn't expect to see,

0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.640
<v Speaker 2>or having somebody say, hey, do you remember when we

0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.360
<v Speaker 2>did this or when you said that.

0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And it does make me I was thinking

0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.120
<v Speaker 1>about this in terms of like childhood versus say, like

0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.920
<v Speaker 1>junior high, teen years sort of reflections or even like

0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.720
<v Speaker 1>early or really all of one twenties. I guess, depending

0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.720
<v Speaker 1>on where you are in life how far removed you

0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.679
<v Speaker 1>are from particular time period. But like for very young children,

0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.800
<v Speaker 1>it seems like so much of what you end up

0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.520
<v Speaker 1>doing and wearing, et cetera is almost entirely shaped by

0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.080
<v Speaker 1>your parents. Anyway. Yeah, yeah, so like what was I

0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.040
<v Speaker 1>thinking is not really a question because it's like you

0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:57.400
<v Speaker 1>weren't thinking, you were just doing or you were just

0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.800
<v Speaker 1>you wore this because it was provided to you, and

0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:02.760
<v Speaker 1>everyone else in your family liked it, so it seemed

0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.720
<v Speaker 1>like you liked it that sort of thing. Not all

0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.800
<v Speaker 1>the time, but like I feel like maybe like eighty

0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.680
<v Speaker 1>percent of the time that may be the case. But

0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:11.600
<v Speaker 1>then it's when you're getting into that area where you

0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.640
<v Speaker 1>are willfully setting out on your own, choosing things for yourself,

0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.320
<v Speaker 1>that might be the area where I mean, you're legitimately

0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.320
<v Speaker 1>asking what was I thinking? What was my intention in

0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:24.120
<v Speaker 1>all of that?

0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.160
<v Speaker 2>That is a good point, like what role agency or

0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:31.760
<v Speaker 2>self control has in the event that you're remembering? So, yeah,

0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if our empathy gap with our past

0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.400
<v Speaker 2>self actually does just increase the farther back you go.

0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.959
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if that could be measured. But if it does,

0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.080
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how does that also relate to the relative

0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:49.000
<v Speaker 2>paucity of memories from early childhood and the for most people,

0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:52.680
<v Speaker 2>complete lack of memories from before ages three or four.

0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, now, I this is interesting to think about, and

0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.040
<v Speaker 1>one possible answer to this might be, well, the reason

0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.240
<v Speaker 1>that you have trouble knowing or understand what you were

0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.000
<v Speaker 1>thinking about in a particular time might be because you

0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.640
<v Speaker 1>have completely blocked it out because their thought process was

0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:16.440
<v Speaker 1>so traumatic that you just had to erase it from

0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:18.800
<v Speaker 1>easy access of the conscious mind.

0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Ah, speaking of what were we thinking? I guess, as

0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:26.320
<v Speaker 2>with many topics in psychology, unfortunately, if you want to

0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.559
<v Speaker 2>trace the history of how we understood this over the

0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:31.720
<v Speaker 2>past one hundred years, really you have to go back

0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.880
<v Speaker 2>to freud not because the Freudian explanations carry any scientific

0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.320
<v Speaker 2>currency today they almost never do. Instead, it's just because

0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:44.439
<v Speaker 2>you've got to understand how influential Freudian theories were in

0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the history of how people thought about this exactly.

0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, And of course you we're talking about Sigmund

0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:55.320
<v Speaker 1>Freud here Austrian neurologist and founder of psychoanalysis, and he

0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.960
<v Speaker 1>too explored the topic of quote unquote infantile amnesia, postulating

0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:05.120
<v Speaker 1>that these lost memories constitute repressed memories repressed due to

0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.920
<v Speaker 1>their psychosexual nature. Here's a quote from Freud, obviously in

0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.120
<v Speaker 1>translation quote. I believe that the infantile amnesia, which causes

0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.280
<v Speaker 1>the individual to look upon his childhood as if it

0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:21.160
<v Speaker 1>were a prehistoric time and conceals from him the beginning

0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.400
<v Speaker 1>of his own sexual life. That this amnesia is responsible

0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.440
<v Speaker 1>for the fact that one does not usually attribute any

0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.000
<v Speaker 1>value to the infantile period in the development of the

0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 1>sexual life.

0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, So, I think the common understanding of the Freudian

0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:42.000
<v Speaker 2>view is that early childhood is a time of strange

0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:46.960
<v Speaker 2>sexual fixations and realizations that we can't bear to think

0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:51.280
<v Speaker 2>back about as adults, so we repress those memories as

0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.440
<v Speaker 2>a type of trauma. I don't think there's any good

0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 2>empirical evidence for the Freudian psychosexual view of development today.

0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:02.319
<v Speaker 1>It frankly doesn't gel with any of the science we've

0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.800
<v Speaker 1>we've looked at in our research for these episodes, and

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 1>it's mainly worth mentioning because of its place in the

0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.440
<v Speaker 1>history of the topic and so forth. But it's also

0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.520
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting to think about, like what's going on with

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:20.600
<v Speaker 1>this approach to infantile amnesia, to the seeming lack of real,

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.679
<v Speaker 1>congrete memories from early life, because you can think of

0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 1>them as sort of like blank spots upon which you

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:31.640
<v Speaker 1>can focus ideas like this. There's there's no possible memory

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 1>there to contradict the backward looking explanation. You know.

0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, Yet not only because it's a blank spot you

0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.800
<v Speaker 2>can fill in with your explanations, but because of the

0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.360
<v Speaker 2>particular characteristics of memory as a function of human brains,

0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:50.080
<v Speaker 2>it's also actually not only possible, but quite trivial to

0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 2>place memories. There are things that feel like memories that

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>do not reflect events that actually happened.

0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it brings to mind that the use of you

0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.080
<v Speaker 1>so called repressed memories not only in psychotherapy, but in

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.800
<v Speaker 1>the pursuit of paranormal experiences as well, such as alien

0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.720
<v Speaker 1>abductions and ritual satanic abuse.

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Right, And this is a really dangerous area because, for

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.080
<v Speaker 2>one thing, I think it's important to acknowledge that it's

0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:22.480
<v Speaker 2>impossible to rule out the idea that repressed memories exist, right,

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:27.040
<v Speaker 2>it is possible that the brain somehow does retain memories

0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.000
<v Speaker 2>that are not easily retrieved with you know, just regular

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 2>conscious effort, but that could be retrieved by some other method.

0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:40.360
<v Speaker 2>But while it's possible, one thing that research makes very

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 2>clear is that it is incredibly easy to mistake false

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.600
<v Speaker 2>recovered memories for real ones. And the false memories feel

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.440
<v Speaker 2>completely convincing, just as real as actual memories. In fact,

0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 2>they are often even stronger and more vivid than real memories.

0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.840
<v Speaker 2>And you can show this with experiments where you know,

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.880
<v Speaker 2>people will say, like, we we consulted with your family

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 2>and they they told us a story about a time,

0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, that you got lost at the playground, but

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>then you met this person and whatever, and this will

0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.600
<v Speaker 2>be completely made up for the purpose of the experiment,

0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:17.640
<v Speaker 2>but many people will start to believe that is a

0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:21.760
<v Speaker 2>real memory they have in their head. Just vividly imagining

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>a scenario proposed by someone else is often enough to

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.920
<v Speaker 2>make someone totally convinced of it as a memory.

0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, these alien abductions and ritual satanic abuses are both

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.480
<v Speaker 1>the topics we've discussed on the show before. But like

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.080
<v Speaker 1>very briefly, like just the the the idea is so

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:45.080
<v Speaker 1>heartbreaking that you could be manipulated into creating a memory

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 1>of trauma and the memory would be traumatic like like

0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 1>once it has been sort of created and or augmented

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.480
<v Speaker 1>in your memory, like it's you know, it's it's a

0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.800
<v Speaker 1>thing that is that is real to you. So yeah,

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.480
<v Speaker 1>but heartbreaking, is it is? It also just drives home

0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.640
<v Speaker 1>something that is possible in all of our memories and

0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.360
<v Speaker 1>really is going on on a less traumatic level with

0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.120
<v Speaker 1>so many everyday memories in our lives.

0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and while I would also point out that it

0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 2>seems especially easy to do this with the idea of

0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.440
<v Speaker 2>early childhood memories, this also works for adults, like you

0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.160
<v Speaker 2>can get adults to remember events that did not take

0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.520
<v Speaker 2>place by causing them to vividly imagine the event or

0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>something like that.

0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 1>All right, well, well, getting away from from even the

0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 1>idea of alien abductions, let's get back into what the

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.680
<v Speaker 1>actual research seems to illuminate about this topic.

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, one thing I think we should say at the

0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.800
<v Speaker 2>beginning is that it's still somewhat an open question why

0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.280
<v Speaker 2>childhood amnesia occurs, and there are competing theories that might

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 2>that are to some degree compete, but they might also

0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 2>be complementary. There might be multiple factors contributing to this

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:09.800
<v Speaker 2>overall pattern where most adults can not really remember much

0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.600
<v Speaker 2>of anything from before age about three or four, and

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.440
<v Speaker 2>then have this gradual accumulation of more memories to about

0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 2>seven or eight. We'll probably explore some hypotheses in this

0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.439
<v Speaker 2>part and then more in the next part in this series,

0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.680
<v Speaker 2>but there was one I wanted to talk about because

0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:32.400
<v Speaker 2>it seems like a pretty straightforward explanation based on neural development,

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.879
<v Speaker 2>the development of regions of the brain, especially a region

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>known as the hippocampus, And so this was in a

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.480
<v Speaker 2>paper I was reading by Christina m. Alberini and Alessio

0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Travaglia published in the Journal of Neuroscience in twenty seventeen

0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.920
<v Speaker 2>called infantile amnesia a critical period of learning to learn

0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.280
<v Speaker 2>and remember. And this paper highlights a seeming paradox. So

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>on one hand, there's this phenomenon we've talked about at

0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.440
<v Speaker 2>length now early speriences seem to be forgotten very rapidly,

0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:09.760
<v Speaker 2>and yet simultaneously, early experiences seem to be incredibly influential

0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:14.919
<v Speaker 2>on adult behavior and adult brain development, to the extent

0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.120
<v Speaker 2>that early childhood experience is a very well documented risk

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:23.560
<v Speaker 2>factor for various adult psychopathologies and disorders. Just to cite

0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:28.280
<v Speaker 2>one example, there is extensive evidence that neglect during early

0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:33.120
<v Speaker 2>childhood development can lead to disorders including depression and anxiety,

0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:37.040
<v Speaker 2>as well as learning and cognitive disabilities in later life,

0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.960
<v Speaker 2>and there are similar findings about childhood poverty leading to

0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.119
<v Speaker 2>cognitive and learning deficits that persist into later life. A

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of these effects are thought to be at least

0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.520
<v Speaker 2>in part related to chronic stress in early childhood, though

0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the authors of this paper propose that it might not

0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.520
<v Speaker 2>just be the effects of stress leading to these outcomes,

0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.359
<v Speaker 2>but also the absence of what they call enrichment in

0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:07.639
<v Speaker 2>episodic or declarative experiences in early development. So we know

0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:13.000
<v Speaker 2>that early childhood experiences have this profound impact on how

0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 2>your brain works later in life, and yet much of

0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.160
<v Speaker 2>what we learn in this period cannot be recalled later

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.400
<v Speaker 2>in narrative or episodic form. So the authors say, quote,

0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:28.159
<v Speaker 2>how then can memories that are rapidly forgotten and of

0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:31.879
<v Speaker 2>which there is virtually no recollection in adulthood exert a

0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:36.280
<v Speaker 2>lifelong effect on the brain and cognitive function. And the

0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.640
<v Speaker 2>answer that the authors of this paper propose lies in

0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:46.119
<v Speaker 2>the hippocampus. So the hippocampus is crucial for the formation

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.919
<v Speaker 2>and maintenance of episodic memories. It's thought to be necessary

0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 2>for certain kinds of learning, for the encoding of long

0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.119
<v Speaker 2>term memory, and related brain functions like spatial memory and

0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.840
<v Speaker 2>navigation of spaces. And an int intersting fact is that

0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.120
<v Speaker 2>this is not true just of humans, but it's true

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.800
<v Speaker 2>of humans and non human mammals. The hippocampus is part

0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:09.800
<v Speaker 2>of the limbic system, so it is part of the

0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.280
<v Speaker 2>brain that we share with other mammals, and the authors

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.119
<v Speaker 2>write that in both humans and non human mammals what

0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.960
<v Speaker 2>they call wwww memories, which I guess is more of

0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:23.840
<v Speaker 2>a shorthand when you type it than you say it

0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.359
<v Speaker 2>out loud, but that stands for who, what, when, and

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:31.800
<v Speaker 2>where memories, So these are explicit memories that require conscious recollections.

0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.879
<v Speaker 2>This would have some overlap with the idea of like

0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.240
<v Speaker 2>episodic memories, memories of events that happened that you can

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.400
<v Speaker 2>recall in detail. The authors say that these memories are

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:46.000
<v Speaker 2>processed by the hippocampus dependent learning and memory system, also

0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.959
<v Speaker 2>known as the medial temporal lobe. Dependent learning and memory system.

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.720
<v Speaker 2>So based on comparing what we know about hippocampal development

0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.359
<v Speaker 2>in humans with the results of studies based on learning

0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:05.080
<v Speaker 2>and early development in rats, the authors actually argue that quote,

0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:10.400
<v Speaker 2>the hippocampal memory system, like sensory functions and language, matures

0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:17.360
<v Speaker 2>through experience and undergoes what they call a developmental critical period. Now,

0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:20.240
<v Speaker 2>they deal with a couple of pre existing hypotheses about

0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:24.920
<v Speaker 2>what's going on here. One they identify as the developmental hypothesis,

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.919
<v Speaker 2>which basically says that these wwww memories they are not

0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:33.560
<v Speaker 2>stored in the long term quote because the hippocampus is

0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:38.400
<v Speaker 2>immature and therefore unable to process, consolidate, and store contextual

0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.919
<v Speaker 2>and episodic representation. So it's just functionally not competent to

0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:45.879
<v Speaker 2>do this yet. And then on the other hand, there's

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.160
<v Speaker 2>this hypothesis known as the retrieval hypothesis, which quote posits

0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:53.800
<v Speaker 2>that infantile memories are not gone, but are instead stored

0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 2>in some form that cannot be expressed due to retrieval failure.

0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.600
<v Speaker 2>And they essentially thread the needle. They argue that both

0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.840
<v Speaker 2>of these kind of get something right, but neither one

0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:09.480
<v Speaker 2>is exactly right, and instead they end up arguing that

0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 2>the hippocampus and the hippocampal learning system are very active

0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:19.560
<v Speaker 2>in early childhood, and they are very much processing experiences

0:22:19.680 --> 0:22:25.040
<v Speaker 2>during this early developmental period, but instead of storing memories

0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:27.600
<v Speaker 2>exactly the same way it will once it is a

0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:31.280
<v Speaker 2>mature organ it is learning how to learn.

0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:34.919
<v Speaker 1>I also have to mention here though, that it is

0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:39.440
<v Speaker 1>interesting that the developmental hypothesis and the retrieval hypothesis, both

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:44.440
<v Speaker 1>of these in their own way reflect different former ideas

0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:48.640
<v Speaker 1>about the minds of young children. Developmental being, well, that's

0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:50.760
<v Speaker 1>not a full blown human yet, of course, it's not

0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.239
<v Speaker 1>gonna think the way we think or remember the way

0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.159
<v Speaker 1>we think. And in the retrieval hypothesis, it's kind of

0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.920
<v Speaker 1>in some you know, it's not exactly like Freud, but

0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:00.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, it gets into that similar like, oh, those

0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:02.919
<v Speaker 1>memories are there, they're just not in a way in

0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.000
<v Speaker 1>there in a place that we can easily get to them, right.

0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:08.440
<v Speaker 2>And I think these authors think that there is an

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 2>element of truth to both of these views, but that

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.480
<v Speaker 2>neither one is exactly correct. That instead, it's that the

0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.600
<v Speaker 2>hippocampus is working really hard to process experiences during this time,

0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.840
<v Speaker 2>but the main thing it's doing with those experiences is

0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.560
<v Speaker 2>learning how to learn. So the hippo campus does store

0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:32.440
<v Speaker 2>memories which can be maintained they say, through frequent recalls,

0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.760
<v Speaker 2>but they say without some form of ongoing recall or

0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.480
<v Speaker 2>subsequent activation or modulation, those memories can tend to decay

0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:43.679
<v Speaker 2>rather quickly. And so they say, quote the types of

0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 2>experience to which an individual is exposed during development shape

0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 2>learning abilities an important implication that highlights the fundamental roles

0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:56.199
<v Speaker 2>of developmental environments. So this period is very important, and

0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.240
<v Speaker 2>it does change the brain in a way that will

0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.080
<v Speaker 2>affect the the person throughout the rest of their life.

0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.280
<v Speaker 2>But a lot of that, they argue, is through affecting

0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.920
<v Speaker 2>how the hippocampus develops and thus how the brain learns

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.760
<v Speaker 2>to learn. And I'm not going to go into great

0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:17.480
<v Speaker 2>granular detail on what the mechanisms are within this, but

0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.919
<v Speaker 2>basically they propose a process by which there's sort of

0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 2>a sequence of different stages of development within critical periods

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.000
<v Speaker 2>for development in the brain. And this is true of

0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.399
<v Speaker 2>not just learning and memory. It's true of sensory functions,

0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 2>like certain sensory things come online and the development of

0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:40.359
<v Speaker 2>one seems to affect the development of the subsequent one,

0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:42.840
<v Speaker 2>and then the next one and so forth, and they

0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:45.239
<v Speaker 2>argue that the same thing may well be happening with

0:24:45.400 --> 0:24:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the maturation of hippocampus dependent learning. So they say, quote,

0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:54.919
<v Speaker 2>our hypothesis is supported by the observation that complex hippocampal

0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:59.520
<v Speaker 2>learning takes place only after simple learning has matured. For example,

0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.639
<v Speaker 2>the abilit to learn about a single queue or object

0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:06.880
<v Speaker 2>seems to mature earlier than episodic learning and memory, which

0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:10.760
<v Speaker 2>require the more complex function of binding together several objects,

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 2>sequences and time. Again, this is the four W learning.

0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:19.040
<v Speaker 2>And then finally they say, thus we speculate the different

0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:24.560
<v Speaker 2>types of hippocampal learning mature sequentially in order of increasing complexity.

0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 2>So they have like a diagram where they speculate that

0:25:28.640 --> 0:25:31.560
<v Speaker 2>it might go sort of learning about objects, and then

0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:35.400
<v Speaker 2>learning about places, and then learning about space more generally,

0:25:35.760 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 2>and then finally the four W learning.

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:40.919
<v Speaker 1>But once again kind of goetting back to what we

0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:43.520
<v Speaker 1>were talking about in the first episode, it's like childhood

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 1>and chadhood development as a series of gates that you

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:50.400
<v Speaker 1>pass through, as a series of phases that you progress

0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:55.000
<v Speaker 1>through towards full integration into society as an adult.

0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and under this model at least how and when

0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:01.720
<v Speaker 2>you pass through the pre gate affects how and when

0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:03.800
<v Speaker 2>you pass through the next gate and the next gate

0:26:03.840 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>and the next gate. But also too, as I said earlier,

0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>that this is one take within this sort of broader

0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:16.240
<v Speaker 2>genre of explanations of childhood amnesia. This is sort of

0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:30.479
<v Speaker 2>the structural brain development type argument. Now, there are some

0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:34.440
<v Speaker 2>other types of explanations, maybe some involving language, interestingly and

0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.680
<v Speaker 2>other things, but maybe we will save that for the

0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:41.160
<v Speaker 2>next episode. Because I know Rob you today in your

0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:45.320
<v Speaker 2>heart there's a burning icon on the surface of your

0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 2>heart and it is in the shape of a super baby.

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we mentioned the possibility of discussing mythic babies, babies

0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 1>of religious significance, and actually we actually heard for at

0:26:57.359 --> 0:26:58.960
<v Speaker 1>least from a couple of people that were like, yes,

0:26:59.000 --> 0:27:02.520
<v Speaker 1>bring on the babies. So yeah, to whatever extent it

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 1>helps us understand this topic, we will give you mythic

0:27:05.840 --> 0:27:10.280
<v Speaker 1>babies that to some degree each exhibits superior abilities and

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.600
<v Speaker 1>or cognition or or something else that's worth touching on.

0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.199
<v Speaker 1>So in general, though I think in most, if not all,

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:18.760
<v Speaker 1>of these examples, we're going to be touching on a

0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:23.680
<v Speaker 1>very widespread religious archetype, that of the divine boy. And

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:28.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, once you see it, you can recognize it

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:32.680
<v Speaker 1>in all its various forms and incarnations. And I suppose,

0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:35.160
<v Speaker 1>especially in modern media, you also have to consider its

0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:39.720
<v Speaker 1>opposite in the form of various like damiens and various

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:40.480
<v Speaker 1>health children.

0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Right, yeah, the cursed boy.

0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:46.879
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean I almost think that in the modern

0:27:46.920 --> 0:27:49.720
<v Speaker 2>era we I'm about to say something I don't really

0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 2>know its true. Okay, well, go with it anyway. What

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:53.600
<v Speaker 2>I was going to say is it seems like today

0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:59.440
<v Speaker 2>we're more likely to interpret a child with like superabilities

0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:03.920
<v Speaker 2>or super intellect as creepy rather than as something really cool,

0:28:05.400 --> 0:28:08.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, like yeah, or we're more predisposed to the

0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:12.040
<v Speaker 2>Damien direction than the than the child uh, you know,

0:28:12.160 --> 0:28:13.520
<v Speaker 2>the child sage direction.

0:28:14.320 --> 0:28:16.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think it's very well illustrated in a

0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:18.760
<v Speaker 1>couple of fictional examples I'll bring up here in a

0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:21.720
<v Speaker 1>bit too. Yeah, that it's even if you're going for

0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the divine, you end up touching on the uncanny, because

0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:28.240
<v Speaker 1>it is there is an uncanny aspect to it, for sure.

0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 1>If you're imagining like a baby that has or a

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:34.919
<v Speaker 1>small child that has uh, like the rational demeanor of

0:28:34.960 --> 0:28:37.720
<v Speaker 1>a full blown adult. All right, well, let's let's start

0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.720
<v Speaker 1>with baby Jesus, who we've talked about on the show before.

0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:42.960
<v Speaker 1>I think we did a whole episode one Christmas about

0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:47.280
<v Speaker 1>images of the Christ Child from Renaissance art that look

0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.160
<v Speaker 1>like tiny ugly men and why they look like tiny

0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:51.920
<v Speaker 1>ugly men. Go back and listen to that if you

0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:56.440
<v Speaker 1>need more weird baby action. But yeah, depictions of the

0:28:56.520 --> 0:29:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Christ Child in the history of Western art, it varies

0:29:02.240 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 1>greatly from believable human infant to tiny mandlings that sometimes

0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:10.320
<v Speaker 1>exude a philosophic air other times look like vaguely grumpy

0:29:11.520 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 1>getting into that, you know what we've talked about in

0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:17.920
<v Speaker 1>the last episode about babies or like are like old people,

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.240
<v Speaker 1>and we can't quite get that out of our heads.

0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:25.239
<v Speaker 1>And we have accounts of the adventures that range from

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:29.360
<v Speaker 1>basically nothing, from just like Christ's early life being just

0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 1>a just unrecorded, to other traditions such as the like

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:36.720
<v Speaker 1>Christ's roll lowering the chur not just Christ but the

0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:40.240
<v Speaker 1>Christ infant lowering Christmas gifts from Heaven on a golden string.

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:43.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, that is a that is a tradition in

0:29:44.120 --> 0:29:47.480
<v Speaker 1>parts of Europe. To other even wilder adventures.

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, Rob, I think you're trying to set me

0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:52.360
<v Speaker 2>up to talk about the the infancy Gospel of Thomas.

0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Is that right, Yes, Okay, this is an ancient text

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:57.960
<v Speaker 2>that we have discussed off Mike here.

0:29:58.080 --> 0:29:58.160
<v Speaker 3>So.

0:29:58.840 --> 0:29:58.959
<v Speaker 1>Uh.

0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, if if you read the four gospels that

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 2>are canonical to most Christians, the ones that are in

0:30:05.560 --> 0:30:08.640
<v Speaker 2>the New Testament, there's very little about the baby Jesus.

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 2>We don't get really many stories of what Jesus did

0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:15.480
<v Speaker 2>before he was a full grown man. Two of the

0:30:15.520 --> 0:30:18.880
<v Speaker 2>gospels have a story of his birth, Matthew and Luke do,

0:30:19.040 --> 0:30:22.040
<v Speaker 2>but he doesn't do anything. He just gets born. There's

0:30:22.120 --> 0:30:25.600
<v Speaker 2>really only one story in the canonical gospels of the

0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:29.640
<v Speaker 2>baby Jesus or the boy Jesus, and that is the

0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:33.400
<v Speaker 2>so called finding at the Temple story in the Gospel

0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.840
<v Speaker 2>of Luke, which is essentially kind of a boy wonder story.

0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:41.120
<v Speaker 2>It is that Mary and Joseph take Jesus to the

0:30:41.160 --> 0:30:43.840
<v Speaker 2>temple and then they leave and then realize that he's

0:30:43.920 --> 0:30:45.720
<v Speaker 2>not with them anymore, so they go back to the

0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:50.800
<v Speaker 2>temple and he is there teaching the wise men about

0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:54.560
<v Speaker 2>the law and about the scripture. So he's showing off

0:30:54.640 --> 0:30:57.320
<v Speaker 2>just his great learning and intellect even as a child.

0:30:57.960 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, I definitely this one from Sunday School days

0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:02.600
<v Speaker 1>of old.

0:31:02.960 --> 0:31:07.400
<v Speaker 2>But if you go outside of the New Testament canon,

0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:11.160
<v Speaker 2>there are gospels from the ancient world that do talk

0:31:11.160 --> 0:31:13.960
<v Speaker 2>about that tell other stories of Jesus as a child,

0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:19.760
<v Speaker 2>including the frankly hilarious Infancy Gospel of Thomas. This is

0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:22.520
<v Speaker 2>a text from I think it's generally believed to be

0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:26.280
<v Speaker 2>from the second century that you can find and read

0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:29.479
<v Speaker 2>online in an English translation. The translation I found was

0:31:29.600 --> 0:31:34.000
<v Speaker 2>by M. R. James from Clarendon Press, Oxford, nineteen twenty four,

0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 2>published in a collection called the Apocryphal New Testament. I

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 2>think the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is sometimes considered a

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Gnostic text, but I know there are some texts that

0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.320
<v Speaker 2>were previously considered gnostic that now scholars don't so much

0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:51.160
<v Speaker 2>think of as gnostic, So I'm not sure where this

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:55.840
<v Speaker 2>lands on the gnosticism scale of today. But the stories

0:31:55.840 --> 0:32:01.680
<v Speaker 2>in it are wild and consist of child jes running around,

0:32:02.160 --> 0:32:05.760
<v Speaker 2>actually Jesus basically in this is Damien from the Omen.

0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>He's just running around cursing and killing other children. So

0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:13.760
<v Speaker 2>there's like a scene where he is playing by a brook,

0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:17.600
<v Speaker 2>and he at one point he takes these he takes

0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:21.360
<v Speaker 2>clay and fashions that into twelve little birds made out

0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:24.960
<v Speaker 2>of clay. And then baby Jesus is accused of having

0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:28.440
<v Speaker 2>violated the Sabbath because he did this on the Sabbath day.

0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>And then he gets mad and rebukes that, and he

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 2>turns the clay sparrows into living sparrows and they fly away.

0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:40.440
<v Speaker 1>I have to say too, this version of it that

0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:42.480
<v Speaker 1>you shared with me, it's really hard not to read

0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:44.920
<v Speaker 1>it in your head in the voice of like an

0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:49.080
<v Speaker 1>ecclesiastical eric Idol from Monty Python and in the Holy Grail,

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:51.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, reading about the Holy hand grenade.

0:32:51.400 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm not going to do eric Idle voice, but

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.120
<v Speaker 2>you can imagine eric Idol as I read from the following.

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:56.640
<v Speaker 1>This is the m R.

0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:00.200
<v Speaker 2>James translation. It says, but the son of Annas, the scribe,

0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.680
<v Speaker 2>was standing there with Joseph, and he took a branch

0:33:02.720 --> 0:33:05.880
<v Speaker 2>of a willow and dispersed the waters which Jesus had

0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:10.240
<v Speaker 2>gathered together. Oh yeah, Jesus he gathered together waters from

0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:11.120
<v Speaker 2>the from the brook.

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:11.560
<v Speaker 1>I guess.

0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 2>So he does this. And when Jesus saw what was done.

0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:19.240
<v Speaker 2>He was wroth and said unto him, Oh, evil, ungodly

0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 2>and foolish one, what hurt did the pools and the waters?

0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:24.480
<v Speaker 2>Do thee behold?

0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:24.880
<v Speaker 1>Now?

0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Also, thou shalt be withered like a tree, and shalt

0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:32.840
<v Speaker 2>not bear leaves, neither root nor fruit. And straightway that

0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:36.560
<v Speaker 2>lad withered up Holy, But Jesus departed and went unto

0:33:36.640 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Joseph's house. But the parents of him that was withered

0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 2>took him up, bewailing his youth, and brought him to

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:45.960
<v Speaker 2>Joseph and accused him for that, Thou hast such a child,

0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:49.560
<v Speaker 2>which doeth such deeds. And then I'm not going to

0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:52.560
<v Speaker 2>keep reading, but it goes. Jesus gets like mad at

0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:55.200
<v Speaker 2>the people who were accusing them, and further curses and

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:56.800
<v Speaker 2>kills people. It's intense.

0:33:57.320 --> 0:34:01.080
<v Speaker 1>So Babe, the kid Jesus straight space vampire. This kid

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:03.920
<v Speaker 1>essentially yes, withered him right there on the spot.

0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:08.719
<v Speaker 2>It's like, yeah, it's like the movie Life Force. So

0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:11.399
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting. I don't know. One thing I don't fully

0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:15.839
<v Speaker 2>understand is how this type of story would have been

0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:19.879
<v Speaker 2>received by its intended audience. So, if you are one

0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 2>of the people reading this story in the second century,

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:25.239
<v Speaker 2>and you think this is an authentic story about the

0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:29.800
<v Speaker 2>child Jesus, Like what are you supposed to think about it? Like, wow,

0:34:29.880 --> 0:34:32.520
<v Speaker 2>he did you know? He really did show that kid

0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:34.240
<v Speaker 2>or I'm not sure.

0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Like they're different. Way. You can sort of

0:34:36.680 --> 0:34:39.400
<v Speaker 1>read this and instantly go in the Damien direction like

0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:42.160
<v Speaker 1>that's dangerous for a child to have those kind of powers,

0:34:42.680 --> 0:34:44.919
<v Speaker 1>or I can easily imagine someone going in a more

0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:49.120
<v Speaker 1>sort of theological direction, like what does this say about

0:34:49.160 --> 0:34:52.480
<v Speaker 1>like the power and authority of Christ and so forth?

0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:57.279
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, it's it's certainly a head scratcher for us.

0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:00.479
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, I think later in the text he does sort

0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.960
<v Speaker 2>of take back or magically undo at least some maybe

0:35:04.000 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 2>all of his curses and killings.

0:35:05.719 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 1>So okay, well that would that would sound appropriate? Yeah,

0:35:10.480 --> 0:35:12.440
<v Speaker 1>all right, well let's move through some other examples from

0:35:12.480 --> 0:35:17.800
<v Speaker 1>major world religions. First stop, the infant Muhammad, so according

0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:21.640
<v Speaker 1>to the Prophet Muhammad and Ritual by Marion Holmes Cats

0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:25.359
<v Speaker 1>published in twenty tens, the Cambridge Companion to Muhammad. There

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:29.400
<v Speaker 1>are also miraculous accounts of Muhammad as a child quote

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:33.120
<v Speaker 1>as depicted in the most widely circulated moulded texts the

0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.400
<v Speaker 1>infant prophet was a luminous figure whose radiance ignited his

0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 1>mother's room and whose holiness blessed all who approached him.

0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:44.000
<v Speaker 1>So there are accounts of him as an infant causing

0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:46.320
<v Speaker 1>the breast of his foster mother, who was also caring

0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:50.160
<v Speaker 1>for another child, to overflow with sustaining milk. This was

0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:53.520
<v Speaker 1>in a time of drought and famine, if I remember correctly.

0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:57.480
<v Speaker 1>And also it said that her emaciated donkey was invigorated

0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.760
<v Speaker 1>simply by being in the presence of the child.

0:36:00.160 --> 0:36:02.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so one could see this as a legend of

0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:06.640
<v Speaker 2>the prophets sort of prefiguring the future blessings he would

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:10.680
<v Speaker 2>help facilitate bringing even in his childhood or even as

0:36:10.680 --> 0:36:11.160
<v Speaker 2>a baby.

0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:14.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his whole presence is just kind of brilliant and empowering,

0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:17.960
<v Speaker 1>all right. Up next, baby Krishna or Bala Krishna, which

0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:20.000
<v Speaker 1>I think just means like the child Krishna or kid

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Krishna or something to that effect. Is of course, Krishna

0:36:24.239 --> 0:36:26.799
<v Speaker 1>is the blue skinned avatar of Vishnu who plays a

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:30.440
<v Speaker 1>major role in Hinduism. But he was also once a baby,

0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:33.120
<v Speaker 1>a little blue skinned baby, and there are a lot

0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:35.840
<v Speaker 1>of tales of him and his exploits, and generally speaking,

0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.359
<v Speaker 1>these tales tend to exhibit a very young child with

0:36:38.400 --> 0:36:41.160
<v Speaker 1>abilities beyond his years, which is very much a part

0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 1>of the whole divine boy archetype. But there's still also

0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:47.000
<v Speaker 1>a trickster element to him as well, with the main

0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:49.840
<v Speaker 1>thing that he does being the stealing of butter, like

0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.920
<v Speaker 1>it's such a big deal. You'll find numerous images and

0:36:52.960 --> 0:36:57.480
<v Speaker 1>illustrations of this blue skinned Krishna stealing a little butter,

0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:02.040
<v Speaker 1>And so you have infant Krishna also doing things that

0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.440
<v Speaker 1>are not necessarily or certainly not attributes of the adult Krishna.

0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:07.520
<v Speaker 1>Like adult Krishna is not going around stealing butter.

0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:10.800
<v Speaker 2>Wait a minute, so you attached a picture of Bala

0:37:10.880 --> 0:37:13.799
<v Speaker 2>Krishna here and does he have his hand in a

0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:14.439
<v Speaker 2>butter jar?

0:37:15.000 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 1>I believe so, I believe that is what this image represents.

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:22.360
<v Speaker 1>And there are numerous images that have this basic this

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:24.319
<v Speaker 1>this basic theme going on.

0:37:24.600 --> 0:37:30.560
<v Speaker 2>This is his trying to get the Marischino cherries experience exactly.

0:37:30.719 --> 0:37:33.960
<v Speaker 1>There's also another tale that I ran across, and this

0:37:34.080 --> 0:37:37.880
<v Speaker 1>is one of another child accusing child Krishna of eating mud,

0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 1>So basically saying, mom, Krishna is eating mud make him

0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:45.880
<v Speaker 1>stock right, and so his foster mother says, okay, Krishna,

0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:49.400
<v Speaker 1>open your mouth, let's see. And then he opens his mouth,

0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:53.080
<v Speaker 1>but within his mouth she sees herself and then has

0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:59.640
<v Speaker 1>a cosmic vision of all universal matter within. So that

0:38:00.200 --> 0:38:02.399
<v Speaker 1>love because it starts out like seeming like a very

0:38:02.520 --> 0:38:05.439
<v Speaker 1>childhood story, and then takes a sharp turn into more

0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:08.280
<v Speaker 1>the sort of an ally and become death, the destroyer

0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:11.040
<v Speaker 1>of worlds, you know, that sort of aspect of the

0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:12.360
<v Speaker 1>grown Krishna.

0:38:13.160 --> 0:38:16.520
<v Speaker 2>Because all of my references are low brow trash, what

0:38:16.600 --> 0:38:21.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm imagining with this inspiring myth is Tim Curry is

0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 2>penny Wise opening his mouth to show the dead lights.

0:38:24.560 --> 0:38:26.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, I mean kind of a similar vibe,

0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:30.680
<v Speaker 1>except on the sacred end of the spectrum, as opposed

0:38:30.680 --> 0:38:35.000
<v Speaker 1>to the horrific. All right, next up, baby Buddha. Yes,

0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:37.040
<v Speaker 1>And I have to admit I hadn't really thought about

0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:39.719
<v Speaker 1>this as much of a possibility, because first of all,

0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:42.360
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't familiar with any stories of the historical Buddha

0:38:42.440 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>as an infant am I sort of go to understanding

0:38:45.960 --> 0:38:50.080
<v Speaker 1>of Sidhartagatoma, the man who had become the Buddha, is

0:38:50.120 --> 0:38:53.560
<v Speaker 1>that of a prince who undergoes an existential crisis and

0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:57.239
<v Speaker 1>turns his back on riches to instead pursue equanimity, right,

0:38:57.320 --> 0:38:59.759
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's that's kind of the standard. But they're all,

0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:03.240
<v Speaker 1>of course, a lot of different interpretations of and writings

0:39:03.239 --> 0:39:06.920
<v Speaker 1>about the Buddha, and some of them do discuss the

0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:11.360
<v Speaker 1>idea of the Buddha as a baby, and in fact,

0:39:11.560 --> 0:39:15.399
<v Speaker 1>there are traditions depicting the newborn Buddha or Buddha as

0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:18.239
<v Speaker 1>a divine child in both Chinese and Japanese traditions.

0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:21.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, this image of Hercules. Sorry, yes, please do.

0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:25.040
<v Speaker 1>The Oh yeah, let's move things back in the mythic direction,

0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:28.520
<v Speaker 1>because of course we have to mention Hercules. Baby Hercules,

0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:32.040
<v Speaker 1>famous for strangling the snake that was placed by an

0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:35.759
<v Speaker 1>assassin in his cradle, and if memory serves, the Luferigno

0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:38.040
<v Speaker 1>Hercules movie that we watched on Weird House Cinema also

0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:40.680
<v Speaker 1>has a scene with baby Hercules strangling snakes.

0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:46.160
<v Speaker 2>Bam and hold, I'm sorry you attached an image. It's like,

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, a mosaic of baby Heracles that does

0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:52.160
<v Speaker 2>look like it's from the ancient world in which the

0:39:52.280 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 2>artist has tried to simultaneously capture like muscles because it's Heracles,

0:40:00.239 --> 0:40:02.920
<v Speaker 2>so he's muscily, but also give him the little like

0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:05.040
<v Speaker 2>chubstick legs of a baby.

0:40:05.360 --> 0:40:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a strange image. It's some sort of like

0:40:07.480 --> 0:40:10.960
<v Speaker 1>mosaic image. I don't know the exact origins of it.

0:40:11.120 --> 0:40:14.120
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, he has a serpent in each hand, like

0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:18.279
<v Speaker 1>crushing their necks, strangling them. A very fierce looking baby here.

0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:21.640
<v Speaker 2>So he's just got a little like balloon legs like

0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:25.080
<v Speaker 2>a baby has. But then also some ripples indicating he's

0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>ripped underneath that.

0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:32.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it's it's uncanny. Now, briefly skipping into

0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:35.759
<v Speaker 1>more modern ideas of the divine child, I mean, I'd

0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:37.239
<v Speaker 1>be remiss if I didn't point out that in our

0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:40.800
<v Speaker 1>modern myth making, Anakin Skywalker is a child with abilities

0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:44.600
<v Speaker 1>to surpass that of other children and even humans human adults.

0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:46.720
<v Speaker 1>In his midst, at a very young age, he's already

0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:50.080
<v Speaker 1>a phenomenal pilot, and his ability as a pilot factor

0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:51.520
<v Speaker 1>into his earliest adventures.

0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Is he not also a product of parthenogenesis?

0:40:55.200 --> 0:40:58.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, yes, yes, so yeah, Anakin, that's a choice,

0:41:00.080 --> 0:41:03.760
<v Speaker 1>good George Lucas. It was born out of the force

0:41:04.560 --> 0:41:09.640
<v Speaker 1>there are various theological treatments of this as well. Then,

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.400
<v Speaker 1>of course, there are three main examples of exceptional children

0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:16.560
<v Speaker 1>in Frank Herbert's Dune saga. You have a Leah a

0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Treades who pops up in the second half of the

0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:23.479
<v Speaker 1>book Dune. So she hasn't appeared in the new movies yet,

0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:26.799
<v Speaker 1>and due to the exposure to her exposure to the

0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:29.319
<v Speaker 1>water of life while still in the womb, she's born

0:41:29.360 --> 0:41:32.279
<v Speaker 1>with the full powers of an adult Benny jesterid reverend Mother.

0:41:32.560 --> 0:41:35.480
<v Speaker 1>I think people who've seen the David Lynch adaptation are

0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:38.719
<v Speaker 1>well familiar with this figure, and it certainly comes off.

0:41:39.080 --> 0:41:43.000
<v Speaker 1>I would say that the Dune saga in general embraces

0:41:43.080 --> 0:41:46.680
<v Speaker 1>the creepiness of the divine child as well as the

0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:48.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, the sacred aspects.

0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 2>I was about to say, can we admit that this

0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:54.640
<v Speaker 2>character is creepy and maybe is supposed to be creepy?

0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Certainly Lynch plays. It'll be interesting to see what the

0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.680
<v Speaker 1>new film adaptation how it approaches it. But yeah, I mean,

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 1>how can she not be because she's a small child

0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:07.480
<v Speaker 1>talking about like ruthless murder and so forth, and revenge,

0:42:07.560 --> 0:42:11.799
<v Speaker 1>and it is very unchildlike in the way that she

0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:12.640
<v Speaker 1>talks to people.

0:42:13.160 --> 0:42:15.440
<v Speaker 2>You don't want a child telling you who is and

0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:16.799
<v Speaker 2>is not the quisat's head.

0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Rack. Yeah. Now, by the third book, in Children of Doune,

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:25.400
<v Speaker 1>we have two more super Dune babies. We have Leto

0:42:25.480 --> 0:42:30.440
<v Speaker 1>the second and Ganima Treades, who both possess adult consciousness

0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:34.960
<v Speaker 1>before birth due to their mother's spice consumption, and so

0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:38.520
<v Speaker 1>a lot of a lot of space in Children of

0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:42.360
<v Speaker 1>Dune and Children of Dune is a long book, or

0:42:42.360 --> 0:42:44.799
<v Speaker 1>at least in my experience, it was a long read.

0:42:45.920 --> 0:42:48.640
<v Speaker 1>There are a lot of scenes of these two like

0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:52.400
<v Speaker 1>talking to and out talking adults and like burning adults

0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:56.160
<v Speaker 1>with various insults and reminders that they are in fact

0:42:56.600 --> 0:43:00.200
<v Speaker 1>of brilliant minds, just sort of encased in the boi

0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:04.000
<v Speaker 1>of small children. Oh yeah, yeah, plenty of creepy content

0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:06.000
<v Speaker 1>going on in this book as well well.

0:43:06.120 --> 0:43:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Rob, I think we need to wrap up today's episode there,

0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.399
<v Speaker 2>but I'm loving your super baby sidebars, and I think

0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:14.279
<v Speaker 2>we will have to continue this in the next part

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:16.640
<v Speaker 2>of the series as well, So we'll be back next

0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:20.759
<v Speaker 2>time to talk more about childhood amnesia, this gap in

0:43:20.800 --> 0:43:23.520
<v Speaker 2>the memory of children, what might cause it, and other

0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:27.480
<v Speaker 2>interesting facts about it, and yeah, we are certainly not

0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:31.520
<v Speaker 2>done with super babies and babies with super brains all right.

0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 1>In the meantime, if you want to check out other

0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:35.600
<v Speaker 1>episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you'll find our

0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:37.719
<v Speaker 1>core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff to

0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Blow your Mind podcast feed, which you can get wherever

0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:42.880
<v Speaker 1>you get your podcasts, and will remind you that Mondays

0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:45.560
<v Speaker 1>that's our listener mail episode. Wednesdays we do a short

0:43:45.560 --> 0:43:48.719
<v Speaker 1>form artifact or monster fact episode, and on Fridays we

0:43:48.760 --> 0:43:51.239
<v Speaker 1>set aside most series concerns to just talk about a

0:43:51.239 --> 0:43:53.160
<v Speaker 1>weird film on Weird House Cinema.

0:43:53.320 --> 0:43:56.680
<v Speaker 2>Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. If you

0:43:56.719 --> 0:43:58.720
<v Speaker 2>would like to get in touch with us with feedback

0:43:58.760 --> 0:44:01.400
<v Speaker 2>on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

0:44:01.440 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 2>for the future, or just to say hello, you can

0:44:03.520 --> 0:44:06.640
<v Speaker 2>email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

0:44:06.800 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 2>dot com.

0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:18.000
<v Speaker 3>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:21.920
<v Speaker 3>more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:44:22.000 --> 0:44:38.000
<v Speaker 3>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.