1 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: In the world of business, self improvement and management courses, 2 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: there are several books that you will continually encounter, things like, 3 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: you know, The Art of War by Sun Zoo or 4 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: perhaps just as famously, The Prince by Nicola Machiavelli. My 5 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: name is Ben, My name is Nolan Ben. Your Machiavelli 6 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: and accent was on point. Thank you very much, Thank 7 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: you so much. When you and I have done Italian 8 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: accents in the past, we have endeavored not to go 9 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: too far into uh cartoon in land. So it's it's 10 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: been a day by day thing for both of us. 11 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: Or maybe I was just trying to employ flattery to 12 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: get you to do what I want. How Machiavellian indeed? 13 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: And how could we mention Machiavelli and the Prince without 14 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: of course mentioning our own uh mentor in the lawful 15 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: evil alignment super producer Casey Pegram. But he seems so 16 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: nice listen that, so it's such a delightful sound. How 17 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: can he be such a monster? Well, what is what 18 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: is a monster? Really? That depends on perspective. What is 19 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: a person? Right? What is a question? We could go 20 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,119 Speaker 1: we could go down this rabbit hole, but instead, let's 21 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: talk about Machiavelli just a little bit. Uh. This, this 22 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: author of The Prince has become in many ways synonymous 23 00:01:54,760 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: with unethical dealing, right, wherein all actions are rated as 24 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: good if they benefit the person committing those actions, double dealing, treachery, schemering, deceit. Indeed, 25 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: so you'll find things like this The Prince is published 26 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: in fifty two, and you'll find quotes in there such 27 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: as A prince never lacks good reasons to break his promises. 28 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: M what a douche. I don't know. I don't I 29 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: don't know if we should be so quick to judge. 30 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: I'm on the fence about it, because you can see 31 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: the utility of the book. I had to read it 32 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: in grad school. Actually, I'm sure you studied international affairs, 33 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: and this is something that would certainly come into play 34 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: with things like diplomacy. I mean, a little healthy subterfuge 35 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: can go a long way, or a little bit of 36 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: a healthy flattery could maybe get someone to do exactly 37 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: what you want without having to strong arm them, make 38 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: it seem like it was their idea to sort of 39 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: accept them as it were. And you and I, in 40 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: the course of preparing for this episode, discovered that maybe 41 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: the Prince is not as original as we once thought 42 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: it was. Yes, you've arrived the topic of today's episode. 43 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Let's see if I can get this pronunciation right. It's 44 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: a little book, a little known book, and I don't know, 45 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: I mean generally little known, certainly known to some called 46 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: the Arthur Shastra. Well done, Did I get it? I 47 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: think you did. I think you did? The Arthur Shastra. 48 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: What's this book about? Well? This book, um was actually 49 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: very recently discovered, and only I think the early nineteen hundreds. 50 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: It had been transcribed from an original copy onto I 51 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: want to say a palm leaf for a series of 52 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: palm leaves, isn't that right? Ben? In this book? The 53 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: Arthur Shastra was most likely written by a group of authors, 54 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: but is typically credited to a man named Cotillia, who 55 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: served as an advisor to Chandra Gupta, who was the 56 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: ruler of the Iron Age civilization of the Marian Empire, 57 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: which was a vast section of northern India. Um and 58 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: it was actually one of the earliest ruling societies in 59 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: the continent of India. Yes, and Cotulia, we believe now 60 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: was the pen name for a minister named Chanakya. But 61 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: as as No points out, this probably wasn't just one 62 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: person writing. The text itself is divided into fifteen books 63 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: that function as a primer for kings right. It covers 64 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: military subjects, political economic subjects that the name Arthur Shastra 65 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: the concept translates to like means of life or worldly success. 66 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: Pro tip if you run it through your Google trans Late, 67 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: it will tell you the translation is economics, and I've 68 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: also seen it written as science of Politics or the 69 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: Science of Political economy. Those are also pretty commonly accepted translations. Um. 70 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: But the reason that this gets lumped in with Machiavelli, 71 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: who is much more well known comparatively, is that it 72 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: also dealt with a lot of that kind of shady 73 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: subterfuge um manipulative techniques that Machiavelli dealt with and writings 74 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: like The Prince, And in addition to things like how 75 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: to set up a ring of spies and manage your 76 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: secret agents, it gives suggestions like a king should fake 77 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: divine miracles in order to impart a sense of almost 78 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: godlike power to his his subjects, not just credibility, but 79 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: they get into the brass tacks of it. And they 80 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: say you should go to state temples fake a miracle 81 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: so you'll increase your revenue from pilgrimages, so people will 82 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: get taxed to go see that part where you know 83 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: you made a statue cry milk or something. And this 84 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: is fascinating because the book itself predates the prints by 85 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: about one hundred years or so. And I believe that 86 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 1: the copy we found in the early nineteen hundreds we 87 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: being human civilization, not just Casey and Nolan myself. Uh, 88 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: this was a copy of a copy, right, It had 89 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: already existed in some other form. So we know that 90 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: this book was valuable enough to be transcribed. And it's 91 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: a really unsentimental read. You can find free translations of 92 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: it online. You can download the PDF and and check 93 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: it out firsthand. But in this in the Arthur Shastra, 94 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: Cortilia openly writes about stuff like assassinations, when you should 95 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: kill your family members? Uh? And as Noll said, how 96 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: to manage secret agents. Also, when is it useful to 97 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: violate a treaty? Yeah, any time it suits you, right right. Uh. 98 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: This this draws comparisons, of course to the Prince, because 99 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: it is seen as intensely a moral right lacking morals, 100 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: and it it makes me think of, um, you're familiar 101 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: with D and D right, dungeons, dragons and stuff. So 102 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: there's this concept of alignments that go either from good 103 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: to evil or lawful to chaotic, and this counts as 104 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: a lawful evil, which also, you know, I think is 105 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: the alignment of the quister. Oh yeah, for sure. Who 106 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: also is in real life actual facts a dungeon master 107 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: or I could see it. I mean he has a 108 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: dungeon and he is the master of it. That's where 109 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: he dwells. Oh man, he might be in he might 110 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: be in the studio now, and we don't know. He 111 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: is such a creature, but he will. He will eventually return. 112 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: If this is your first time tuning in and you're 113 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: thinking Ben Noel, super producer Casey, who is this quister 114 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: you talk about? Just stick a stick around in one 115 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: episode or another. It'll be time. Oh gosh, I feel 116 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: like maybe we're I know, we're sort of whistling in 117 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: a graveyard here, but maybe by talking about it, he 118 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: won't show up this episode. Anyway. Back to Cartelia, there 119 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: are actually quite a few pretty serious differences between his 120 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: writings and marca Velli. Right, Yeah, this is something that 121 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: you and I were chopping it up about, and you 122 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: brought up a point that I feel they feel is 123 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: pretty observant and I would agree with, which is that 124 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: you see this as more of a I don't know, 125 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: would you say, a slightly better moral character to this work. 126 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: It does feel that way. Um, it certainly doesn't seem 127 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: to lean quite as heavily on that deceitful manipulation that 128 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: marca Velli was so fond of. See, I think I 129 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: think that's a valve point. It's strange because people still 130 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: seem somewhat divided on this. You know, there are some 131 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: people who will prefer one over the other, or feel 132 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: like one is maybe less unethical. I feel like, I 133 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: can't say more ethical less unethical. It's actually a favorite 134 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: book of Henry Kissinger. In his work World Order, he 135 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: refers to this ancient Indian treatise as something that lays 136 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: out the requirements of power and the dominant reality and politics. Yeah, 137 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: and you were mentioning to me off air that this 138 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: um kind of combines the ideas behind Confucianism and legalism 139 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,079 Speaker 1: in a sort of this hybrid very functional philosophy of governing. 140 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: It even goes so far as to set up kind 141 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: of a schedule for a ruler. Um that that I'm 142 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna give you a snippet of I think 143 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: this is great. So in your first ninety minutes of 144 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: the day, at sunrise, uh, you the ruler should go 145 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: through the various reports and documents and you know, right 146 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: checks and sign papers in the like what have you. 147 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: Then the second ninety minutes is when you should sort 148 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: of hold court and allow people to present their grievances 149 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: to you, um, you know, public audiences, let's call it. 150 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: H Then in the third ninety minutes, have a little 151 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: breakfast and um, you know, maybe take some personal time, 152 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: do some set ups and pull ups. I know you're 153 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,719 Speaker 1: fond of doing that. Ben, have a little bath, a 154 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: little spa, you know, read a book whatever. Then we're 155 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: into the fourth ninety minutes when you get to meet 156 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: with all of your cabinet and your ministers and the like. 157 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: Then the fifth ninety minutes is when you should write 158 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: your letters. Um. And then the last ninety minutes is 159 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: when you take a lunch. Apparently, yes, that's a late lunch. 160 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: It's a late lunch. And also it's pretty demanding schedule. 161 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: We found that this bakes in about what five hours 162 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: of sleep and thinking roughly four and a half less 163 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: than five. Yeah, so you really um have to burn 164 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: the candle at both ends to be a good leader. 165 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: Um as far as Cartilia was concerned, and this was 166 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: enormously influential in ancient and class passical India, but as 167 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: a result of invasions and conquests, it disappeared from widespread 168 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: usage sometime in the twelve or thirteen centuries. So that's 169 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, that's the long and short of how we 170 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: how we lost it, which is a shame because you 171 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: have to wonder, you know, in the intervening centuries, how 172 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: knowledge of this text may have changed things, especially you know, 173 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: in the centuries before the publication and spread of The Prince. Again, 174 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: these books are related, but there by no means exactly 175 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: the same. It's just this is the earlier record espousing 176 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: this brutal realism that most people associate with Machiavelli. So 177 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: it's much more an example of parallel thinking than it 178 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: is somebody ripping off somebody else. Right, Yeah, but how 179 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: Machiavellia would it have been had Micha Velli discovered this 180 00:11:52,400 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: book and just not told anyone one. Thing I thought 181 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: was really interesting that that we both came across was 182 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: this idea of the mandala theory, um, which I think 183 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: is super cool. He uh. Cartillia lays out, um the 184 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: idea of the universe as being the mandala a series 185 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: of concentric circles, with your particular kingdom or culture in 186 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: the middle, and then the concentric circle outside of that 187 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: is your enemy, and the concentric circle outside of that 188 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: is your enemy's enemy and therefore your friend, and so on. 189 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: And it's just an interesting way of kind of like 190 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: figuring out alignments. And uh, I thought it was a 191 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: really cool kind of visual device. Um he he had. 192 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: He actually has twelve levels of these concentric circles and 193 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: gives specific advice um on how to deal with them 194 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: according to which part of the mandala you find yourself 195 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: him right. Yeah, this, this author, this group of authors, 196 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: is all about list depending on the position of a 197 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: state in these concentric circles of this mandala that Noel 198 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: just laid out here very well put my day. The 199 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: author recommends different types of foreign policy. Do you pursue peace? 200 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: Do you pursue war, do you pursue neutrality? Do you 201 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: prepare for war in a public way that signals it 202 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: to your enemies? Do you seek protection from another state? 203 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: Or and this is the this is the weirdest one, 204 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: and he writes so openly about this. Do you practice duplicity? 205 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: Do you do you pursue peace and war at the 206 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: same time with the same kingdom. Is that sort of 207 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: a double agent kind of scenario or you're sort of 208 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: playing both sides? Yeah, I totally could maybe have some 209 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: rumors or leaks spread that you're preparing for war or 210 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: something while you offer peace treaty. I mean, that's complex statecraft. 211 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: I wonder what would happen, kind of a false flag scenario. 212 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: We go, Yeah, there we go, and we might be aching. 213 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: This sound like a super villain textbook. But what's fascinating 214 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: about it is it proves a long standing argument or 215 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: tenant or position in international affairs, which is that state 216 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: actors behave rationally and states do not have friends, they 217 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: have interest. So whatever neck of the global woods you 218 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: live in, when one are your politicians is telling you 219 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: that there is a friendship between your country and another country, 220 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: what that really means is they're cooperating because their interest aligned, 221 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, it's true. And that's 222 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: why it kind of becomes interesting when you start applying 223 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: this idea of machiavellian is m to like an individual 224 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: rather than a state actor, you know, because as it 225 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: turns out, it's not necessarily the people that behave in 226 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: these ways. Isn't because necessarily they've read the Prince or 227 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: they've read the Arthur shastra Um. It turns out, psychologically 228 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: certain people are just predisposed to being manipulative. And in 229 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: the nineties seventies, a psychologist by the name of Richard Christie, 230 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: along with his research partner Florence Guys, developed a test 231 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: of Machiavellianism called the wait for it, the mock four. 232 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: I love that name, and I'm so glad that you 233 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: introduced this testament as well as to Casey and you 234 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: had the proposal that we all take a version of 235 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: the mock for test, which is available online. I did, 236 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: and we have not shared our scores with each other. Right, 237 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: we don't know cases he doesn't know ours. We're all 238 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: we're all kind of in the dark. And folks, if 239 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: you want to take this along with us. You can 240 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: go to open psychometrics dot org slash tests slash M 241 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: A C H dash I V. Those are caps the 242 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: mock four parts, so M M A C H dash 243 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Roman numeral four. So there there's some interesting things about 244 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: this test, and I'm wondering I want your to take. 245 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: Do you think we should just tell each other our 246 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: scores and then uh talk about the test a little 247 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: or do you think we should talk about the test 248 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: and then tell each other our scores. Let's talk about 249 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: the test a little bit. Let's set up with the 250 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, let's just give a little introduction to the test. Okay, sure. 251 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: So this is a series of what's around twenty questions, 252 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: that's right. I think it was twenty on the nose, 253 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,359 Speaker 1: it's twenty questions on the knows you have five possibilities. 254 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: These are all questions that ask whether you agree or 255 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 1: disagree to a statement, or if you remain neutral, and 256 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: to what degree you disagree or agree right that being disagree, 257 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: slightly disagree, neutral, slightly agree, or agree, um and again. 258 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: This test was developed by Richard Christie and Florence L. Guys, 259 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: and it was released in the seventies that began their 260 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: research on it in the sixties um and they compiled 261 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: a list of statements from Marcavelli's various writings, and they 262 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: put them to you and ask you to weigh in 263 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: on whether you which level of agreement or disagreement you 264 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: have about that idea. And these will have just to 265 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: give you a taste of the statements will be reacting to. 266 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: These are statements such as, never tell anyone the real 267 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 1: reason you did something unless it is useful to do so, 268 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: that's not so shady, and it's also kind of ague. 269 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: Or one should take action only when it is morally right. 270 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: The best way to handle people is to tell them 271 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: what they want to hear, or things like it's hard 272 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: to get ahead without cutting corners here and there. And 273 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: there are also questions that don't come from the book 274 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: to our statements. Rather sure, like, you know it is 275 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: possible to be good in all respects. Would you kill 276 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: a puppy in cold blood? Would you kill a puppy 277 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: and warm milk? Whatever, whatever, whatever your flavor is. So 278 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: there are also some gut checks from the scientists where 279 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: they say, are you responding honestly to this quiz? And 280 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: of course it's an honor system. I didn't get that one. 281 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: You didn't get that one. Oh wait, because there's the 282 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: option after you complete the quiz to answer additional questions. 283 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: I didn't do that. I never, I never. I never 284 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: go the extra mile with these kinds of things. It's 285 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: like when I do tech support and they say, would 286 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: you fill out a short survey after you complete your 287 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: tech support request? I always decline. Every single time. I'll 288 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: usually decline this survey. But if I've had to be 289 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: on the phone with a living human being, then I 290 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: always love to ask them if they get any sort 291 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: of kudos for customer compliments, and unless they do an 292 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: absolutely terrible job, I'll have them transfer you over to 293 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: their manager and I'll just say this person is great. Uh, 294 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: they should get a raise. They're awesome. Ben, you are 295 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 1: a much better person than me, and I think that 296 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: will prove out in the scores of the mock four tests. 297 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: Are you prepared? I'm prepared? Should we say it at 298 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: the same time? Okay, you first, I was machiavelliam. I 299 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: thought you'd be pretty high. No offense. I was seventy four. Ben, 300 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: you must really think I'm a monster. Well again for 301 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: this whole episode. I'm the one who saying we shouldn't 302 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: be so quick to judge or call anybody a monster. Now, 303 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: to be fair, I answered slightly disagree quite a lot. 304 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: I felt like it punished me a little unfairly because 305 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: some of these questions were kind of broad, um, and 306 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: they didn't really have a hard yes or no answer, 307 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: like you know, no, I would not kill a puppy. 308 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: But also, I don't really think that everyone is inherently good. 309 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: I don't think that makes me a bad person. I 310 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: do think everyone else is kind of a bad person. Sure, 311 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: and there's another Okay, so there are two interesting things 312 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: about this test that we should definitely point out. First, 313 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: your results will probably change as if you take this 314 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: multiple times, and those changes will likely depend upon your mood. 315 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: So if you are feeling super warm and fuzzy and 316 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: something really nice has just happened to you, then you're 317 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: going to be more likely to say that you think 318 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: all people have some sort of goodness in them. Right, 319 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: this is true. This is true. That's a very good point, um, 320 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: And we have kind of missed the most important detail 321 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: of all uh to prove whether or not our super 322 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: producer Casey is as much of a monster as I 323 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: accused him of being at the top of the show. 324 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: That is true, Superproducer, Casey, pegram moment has arrived and 325 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: we are very very curious to hear your results, sir. 326 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: All right, well, I'm actually currently finishing up the last 327 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: few questions on that extended questionnaire, so I opted in 328 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: as well as you've been. That might give you a 329 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: little bit of an indicator at which direction we're heading 330 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: in here. Do you feel good about your choice though, Casey, 331 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: I was in a very mellow mood just now when 332 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: I took this, so I'm I'm I'm probably gonna be 333 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: uh more more of the live and let Live hippie 334 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: variety today and those additional questions to paint the scene 335 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: for everybody. Those additional questions are things that will help 336 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: the researchers so they don't necessarily deal with Machiavelli and stuff. 337 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: They're or like demographic questions. Uh do you know the 338 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: definitions to these words? So it don't affect your score though, No, 339 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: You're just your score ends before the extra questions. And 340 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: I just want to point out that hippies can be manipulative. 341 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: To Casey, if you heard of the Manson family. Well, 342 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: the extended questions are just to give a helping hand 343 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: to those researchers furthering their work. I'm getting really worked 344 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: up about this, you guys, Casey, I must know your score, 345 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: all right, I've just found out seconds ago when I 346 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: clicked continue. Can you put a could you? Could you 347 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: put a drum roll in? Absolutely all right? And my 348 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: score is man, Casey's the best one. He's the best one. 349 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm I'm on on the low end of the curve. Actually, 350 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: I'm like on the slope going up to the middle. 351 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm on the fat part. Yeah, the curve shows us 352 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: that an aggregate the largest amount is going to be 353 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: just under seventy. It looks like but doesn't don't I 354 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: score points for feeling guilty that I scored so high? 355 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: But do you really feel guilty or is it? Is 356 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: it part of the part of the show, because I 357 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: could see how Machiavelli or Katilia might argue that it's 358 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: smart to signal that. But I also don't think you 359 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: should feel bad. I don't even know anymore. So well, 360 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: so we pointed out that the test will probably change 361 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: depending on your mood. Casey said it was an MLO 362 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: mood crap test. And and additionally, if somebody is truly machiavellian, Casey, 363 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: then it's not hard to engineer a low score on 364 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: this test. Casey, that absolutely well, I was kind of 365 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, I might have been leaning that way a 366 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: little bit. So to the continued, the proof would be 367 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: in the putting of your actions, sir, I did not 368 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: mean that laugh to come out so sinister. See what, No, 369 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: none of us knows anymore who we are. We're all 370 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: doubting and questioning ourselves because if it's blasted internet test, 371 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: because we are old friends, I will make a confession 372 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 1: to guys, I looked up the average beforehand and aimed 373 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: for that. Wow, and I still got a little bit higher, 374 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: you son of a son in law. Yes, is so. 375 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: And so indeed, it just goes to show that these 376 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: questions that we're still asking today as individuals, as businesses, 377 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: as organizations, as governments still were relevant thousands and thousands 378 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: of years ago and will likely be just as relevant 379 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years from now. Yeah, and it 380 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: turns out, no surprise, the Arthur Shastra has played a 381 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 1: big role in the political identity and culture of India. UM. 382 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: It is considered a classic of diplomacy, and there are 383 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: quite a few universities and some diplomatic offices that have 384 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: been named after the likely author Cartilia to celebrate this work. Right, 385 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 1: this is a prof ourly important book and if you 386 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: if you haven't heard of it before this episode, and 387 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: you happen to enjoy the prints, we highly recommend you 388 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: check this out again. It's free online. You can get 389 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: a paperback copy pretty easily via Amazon or your favorite 390 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: used bookstore. And speaking of the prints, I just wanted 391 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that we are podcasting today the inaugural recording 392 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: in our new studios at How Stuff Works HQ. UM. 393 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: You can picture kind of a giant shipping container in 394 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: a room, UM, and Ben and I are inside of 395 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: that at this lovely mahogany would table with our new 396 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: fancy microphones and we have our own little headphone boxes. 397 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I'm nerning out about it. I kind 398 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: of set it up and it's the kind of stuff 399 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: that excites me. But it's great. And Casey's out there 400 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: on the outside through the window and he's got his 401 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: own mic and got a cool ikea China ball hanging 402 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: from the ceiling. And I don't know the reason I 403 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: said the princes, because I think we're gonna the studio 404 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: Prince right, We've arrived, We're we're moving on up. This 405 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: is this is a big step for us, and we've 406 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: got to send some pictures out. This is the first studio. 407 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that we would just 408 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: hang out in for funzies. It's right, it's very very comfy. 409 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: And you know, we'll we'll hop on the social media 410 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: train soon and post some pictures. And we have a 411 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: Facebook group, now, don't we. I think the ridiculous historians right, Yes, 412 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: that is correct. If you are inclined to Facebook, love 413 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: things both historical and ridiculous, join us. You can see 414 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,239 Speaker 1: some stuff that may or may not have made it 415 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: to the air, get a peek behind the scenes, and 416 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: also here from some of our peer podcast and it's 417 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: a fun place to share articles and maybe we can 418 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: delve into for future episodes of the show. And if 419 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: anyone feels inclined to be a moderator, if you're into 420 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, shoot us an email and we'll 421 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: talk about it. And while you are on the Internet, 422 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: regardless of your results on the mark for quiz. Feel 423 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: free to drop by iTunes or your platform of choice 424 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: and leave us a review. Let us know how we're doing. 425 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: It's okay if it's just to manipulate us into liking you. 426 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: As long as it's positive, it will totally work. Absolutely 427 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: I can guarantee that. So this will conclude today's episode, 428 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: but not our show. Joined us next time as we 429 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: cover the killer marketing campaign behind Guy Fox v for Vendetta. 430 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: I just said the name of the movie. I don't 431 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: know why. I just said that I like the film, 432 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: though the comic is better. Yeah, the graphic novel is 433 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: uh is a fantastic read as as a matter of fact, 434 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want us to be the people 435 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: who are always saying the book is better than the movie, 436 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: but in this case, I think it's true. Not what 437 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: the episode is about, but we will dig into that 438 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: fabled British figure Um and his bungled plot. So join 439 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: us in the meantime. You can find us on Twitter, 440 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, you can find us 441 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: on our Facebook page, or you can write us a 442 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: good old fashioned email with your reactions to the story 443 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: of the Arthur Shastra. Have you read both this work 444 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: and The Prince? If so, how would you rank them? 445 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: How do you think they compare or contrast? Let us 446 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: know you can write to us directly. We're ridiculous at 447 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot Com. So, as always, thanks to 448 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: our slightly less suffering um and and totally not evil 449 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: unless you know he is, super producer Casey Pegram. Thanks 450 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 1: to Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Also thanks to 451 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: our regular contributor Lori L. Dove, the author of Ridiculous 452 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: History Ancient India beat Machiavelli to the punch by one thousand, 453 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: eight hundred years, And of course, most importantly, thanks to 454 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 1: you for checking out the show. We can't wait to 455 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: hear about your score.