1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Habits are only 2 00:00:25,476 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: good or bad in relation to your goals. Every year, 3 00:00:29,716 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: the New Year approaches all across America, millions of us 4 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:36,356 Speaker 1: take a look at our lives and think about making changes, 5 00:00:36,956 --> 00:00:39,876 Speaker 1: changes in how we exercise, the money we say, the 6 00:00:39,916 --> 00:00:42,956 Speaker 1: hours we spend on the internet. We always think of 7 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:48,516 Speaker 1: discipline a sort of self denial. It's the kind of 8 00:00:48,556 --> 00:00:52,756 Speaker 1: white knuckling it through. We're going to make ourselves do it. 9 00:00:53,156 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: So that's a high effort sort of a process. For 10 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:00,676 Speaker 1: those of us who actually make fresh goals, fewer than 11 00:01:00,756 --> 00:01:03,396 Speaker 1: half of us will stick with them. Many of us 12 00:01:03,436 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: won't even get through January. But research psychologists Wendy Wood 13 00:01:08,196 --> 00:01:11,316 Speaker 1: thinks that's because we're thinking about our goals upside down. 14 00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: A lot of goals aren't about making fresh habits. So 15 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: we really are trying to change a habit that we've 16 00:01:19,196 --> 00:01:26,356 Speaker 1: already formed, and that requires different strategies than willpower and motivation. 17 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: Doctor Wendy Wood is Provost Professor of psychology and Business 18 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:35,556 Speaker 1: at the University of Southern California, and she thinks persistent 19 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:42,356 Speaker 1: behavior change is solvable. Just to start out, Wendy to 20 00:01:42,436 --> 00:01:46,356 Speaker 1: ask for perhaps obvious question, what is a habit? A 21 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:51,476 Speaker 1: habit is Actually it's an answer, it's a solution. It's 22 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: a way that people stick with behavior. It's a way 23 00:01:55,596 --> 00:01:59,236 Speaker 1: they persist. Habits. You can think of as a sort 24 00:01:59,276 --> 00:02:04,596 Speaker 1: of learning mechanism. Something good happens, some good outcome happens. 25 00:02:05,156 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 1: You form habit memories that allow you to repeat it 26 00:02:08,396 --> 00:02:13,036 Speaker 1: again in the nature. So when we talk about bad habits, 27 00:02:13,196 --> 00:02:16,156 Speaker 1: and just about everybody I know I think would say 28 00:02:16,196 --> 00:02:19,316 Speaker 1: they have some bad habits, however hard they're trying or 29 00:02:19,396 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 1: not trying to change them. Is it that you're somehow 30 00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 1: getting rewarded or you've gotten into a pattern of being 31 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:30,996 Speaker 1: rewarded for that bad habit. Bad habits are habits that 32 00:02:31,036 --> 00:02:35,796 Speaker 1: are inconsistent with our goals. They conflict with our goals. 33 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:38,676 Speaker 1: So there are things that we don't want to do 34 00:02:39,276 --> 00:02:43,196 Speaker 1: and they got rewarded in the past. Rewards are really 35 00:02:43,236 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 1: important for forming a habit. They're not quite so important 36 00:02:47,916 --> 00:02:51,836 Speaker 1: once you've formed one. And that's the real challenge. We 37 00:02:51,916 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 1: keep doing what we did in the past that was rewarding, 38 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 1: but right now we've changed our mind and we want 39 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:04,676 Speaker 1: to be doing something else. But the habit memory sticks, 40 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:08,676 Speaker 1: and so it keeps us doing that thing. You know, 41 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:11,636 Speaker 1: you've reminded me. I grew up in Chicago and went 42 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 1: to a school that was across the street from a zoo, 43 00:03:15,036 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: and as a result, we had a course that I 44 00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:21,316 Speaker 1: took which was called Patterns in Animal Behavior. And what 45 00:03:21,356 --> 00:03:23,756 Speaker 1: we did was we went over to the zoo and 46 00:03:23,876 --> 00:03:27,196 Speaker 1: watched animals for a long time, like an hour or two. 47 00:03:27,436 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 1: And what you saw was repetitive habits. I don't know 48 00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: if you call them habits when they're animals and not humans, 49 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:37,916 Speaker 1: but these animals just did the same thing again and again. 50 00:03:37,956 --> 00:03:40,636 Speaker 1: And it might have been a complicated routine, but over 51 00:03:40,676 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 1: tom you would see the repetitive behavior. And it's always 52 00:03:45,276 --> 00:03:47,956 Speaker 1: made me think that, well, humans are animals and we 53 00:03:48,076 --> 00:03:51,396 Speaker 1: do the same thing. We just have these repetitive grooves 54 00:03:51,436 --> 00:03:54,956 Speaker 1: that we get into exactly what a great class. You're 55 00:03:54,996 --> 00:03:58,596 Speaker 1: absolutely right. Habits are a form of learning that we 56 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:02,236 Speaker 1: share with all mammals. I mean, because it's how your 57 00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: dog learns, right, It's how you train your dog, giving 58 00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:08,436 Speaker 1: them rewards for doing the same thing over and over. 59 00:04:09,236 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: The challenge for humans, though, is that we have this 60 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:18,196 Speaker 1: very elaborate, more thoughtful decision making parts of our brain 61 00:04:18,676 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 1: as well as the habit systems that we share with 62 00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:27,076 Speaker 1: all mammals, and those sort of more elaborate, thoughtful areas 63 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:31,196 Speaker 1: are what makes us decide geez, I wish I didn't 64 00:04:31,236 --> 00:04:35,356 Speaker 1: do this, and that's where we get into conflict with 65 00:04:35,676 --> 00:04:39,036 Speaker 1: the habits system. So it's that time of year when 66 00:04:39,356 --> 00:04:42,796 Speaker 1: lots of people make New Year's resolutions, and I think 67 00:04:42,796 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 1: the evidence suggests that most people won't keep most of 68 00:04:46,596 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 1: those resolutions. So what's your advice for changing habits that 69 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 1: we want to change and having the change stick. Yeah, 70 00:04:56,716 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that most people don't stick with them. 71 00:05:00,916 --> 00:05:05,196 Speaker 1: At best, about half of us will be successful at 72 00:05:05,316 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 1: keeping our New Year's resolutions. Most people say if I fail, 73 00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:15,316 Speaker 1: I didn't have enough willpower. We tend to ascribe it 74 00:05:15,396 --> 00:05:19,116 Speaker 1: to ourselves and our own limitations. But keep in mind 75 00:05:19,316 --> 00:05:25,636 Speaker 1: that most of the resolutions we make are changing and 76 00:05:25,796 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 1: existing behavior. So we really are trying to change a 77 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:37,116 Speaker 1: habit that we've already formed, and that requires different strategies 78 00:05:37,316 --> 00:05:41,676 Speaker 1: than willpower and motivation, because you're not going to stay 79 00:05:41,716 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: motivated as long as your habit memory is going to persist. 80 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:51,356 Speaker 1: The best way to change a habit is to alter 81 00:05:51,516 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: the cues in the environment what is activating that response. 82 00:05:58,116 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 1: And let me give you an example. So I get 83 00:06:01,836 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 1: up in the morning and I walk into my kitchen 84 00:06:04,996 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 1: and I make coffee and I do so I don't 85 00:06:08,316 --> 00:06:11,436 Speaker 1: ask myself do I want coffee this morning? Am I 86 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:17,276 Speaker 1: tired enough? I just make it automatically without thinking about 87 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 1: what I'm doing. You might have had this experience when 88 00:06:20,516 --> 00:06:23,316 Speaker 1: you get in your car, right you just automatically put 89 00:06:23,356 --> 00:06:26,876 Speaker 1: your seatbelt on. You don't think about all of the 90 00:06:26,916 --> 00:06:30,796 Speaker 1: reasons why you should or shouldn't. It's something that's automatic. 91 00:06:31,556 --> 00:06:35,316 Speaker 1: So that's what keeps us repeating behavior, and we want 92 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:39,156 Speaker 1: to change up those cues so that the old pattern 93 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: isn't activated. Well, that's an interesting example about seatbelts because 94 00:06:44,836 --> 00:06:47,876 Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who didn't use seatbelts 95 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 1: when it was purely a matter of choice. But we've 96 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 1: actually taken that discretion away from people, at least for 97 00:06:54,516 --> 00:06:57,516 Speaker 1: cars made and I don't know the last however many years, 98 00:06:57,916 --> 00:07:01,956 Speaker 1: because legislation requires that there's that annoying beeping noise if 99 00:07:01,956 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: you don't have your seatbelt on, and so you no 100 00:07:04,236 --> 00:07:07,116 Speaker 1: longer have the option of having a bad habit. Does 101 00:07:07,196 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 1: that point the way to creating systems that take our choice, 102 00:07:12,836 --> 00:07:16,276 Speaker 1: the element of will or willpower away from us when 103 00:07:16,276 --> 00:07:18,676 Speaker 1: it comes to habits that we should want to change 104 00:07:18,756 --> 00:07:22,076 Speaker 1: or break. Well, I wouldn't say so much. It takes 105 00:07:22,116 --> 00:07:26,596 Speaker 1: our willpower away from us as encourages us to do 106 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:31,036 Speaker 1: the right thing. And we've done this already in public 107 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:37,836 Speaker 1: health campaigns with anti smoking. Right, we have changed the environment, 108 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:42,196 Speaker 1: the smoking environment, to actually make it more difficult to smoke, 109 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 1: and that's involved removing cues. So there are no longer 110 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:52,276 Speaker 1: cigarettes on shelves and stores, we don't get advertising for cigarettes, 111 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:57,836 Speaker 1: there aren't cigarette vending machines anymore. So they've taken away 112 00:07:57,836 --> 00:08:00,916 Speaker 1: a lot of the queues to purchasing. But they've also 113 00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:06,196 Speaker 1: made it more difficult to smoke, smoking bands and public places, 114 00:08:06,356 --> 00:08:09,956 Speaker 1: taxes on cigarettes make it harder to buy them. So 115 00:08:10,236 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: that's sort of a two pronged approach here. One is 116 00:08:14,396 --> 00:08:19,476 Speaker 1: changing the cues that kept people smoking, and the second 117 00:08:19,756 --> 00:08:25,716 Speaker 1: is making it more difficult to smoke, adding friction on 118 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:29,156 Speaker 1: the behavior so it's more difficult, and our habits are 119 00:08:29,276 --> 00:08:31,716 Speaker 1: very responsive to that. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to 120 00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 1: talk about smoking because obviously that's a behavior that involves 121 00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:43,156 Speaker 1: an element of addiction. Nicotine's an addictive chemical. And it's interesting, 122 00:08:43,236 --> 00:08:47,036 Speaker 1: first of all, that changing the scenarios and the way 123 00:08:47,076 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 1: you talk about still has an effect even though it's addictive. 124 00:08:50,356 --> 00:08:54,356 Speaker 1: But for some people it doesn't because they're addicted to 125 00:08:55,036 --> 00:08:58,156 Speaker 1: the chemical of nicotine and change Trying to do all 126 00:08:58,196 --> 00:08:59,996 Speaker 1: the things you're talking about isn't going to get you 127 00:09:00,036 --> 00:09:02,836 Speaker 1: across the line of quitting. Well, let me point out 128 00:09:03,036 --> 00:09:07,116 Speaker 1: that in the middle of the last century, fifty percent 129 00:09:07,316 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: of Americans smoked, and now only fifteen percent do so. Yes, 130 00:09:13,516 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: I'm not denying the effects of nicotine, but I'm saying 131 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: that these forces on our behavior are very powerful, maybe 132 00:09:22,236 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 1: more so than many of us want to admit. I mean, 133 00:09:27,076 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 1: if I could be the guinea pig here for a minute, 134 00:09:28,716 --> 00:09:31,516 Speaker 1: let me tell you about a habit, a bad habit 135 00:09:31,556 --> 00:09:33,116 Speaker 1: I would like to break that I've had a really 136 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:38,876 Speaker 1: hard time breaking, which is having my phone in bed. 137 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:42,756 Speaker 1: I definitely as a result of having the phone. I 138 00:09:42,796 --> 00:09:44,636 Speaker 1: don't do have it there every night, but when I do, 139 00:09:44,996 --> 00:09:46,556 Speaker 1: I don't sleep as well. If I wake up in 140 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:48,516 Speaker 1: the middle of the night, I'm inclined to reach for 141 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:50,196 Speaker 1: the phone, and then I'm less likely to go back 142 00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:52,796 Speaker 1: to sleep, And just in general, when I don't have 143 00:09:52,796 --> 00:09:58,116 Speaker 1: the phone there, I feel better about things. But I 144 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 1: keep having my phone in bed for you know, I 145 00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 1: have various reasons and excuses, but honestly, I think the 146 00:10:04,836 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 1: bottom line is I want to check my phone like 147 00:10:07,396 --> 00:10:11,476 Speaker 1: it's something. You know, it's pleasurable or important or whatever 148 00:10:11,556 --> 00:10:14,876 Speaker 1: it is. But even if I get in the groove 149 00:10:14,956 --> 00:10:17,716 Speaker 1: of putting it in another room for a while, I 150 00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,276 Speaker 1: somehow break the good habit and go back to the 151 00:10:20,316 --> 00:10:24,596 Speaker 1: bad one. Can you help me, Well, you're responding to rewards. 152 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: The phone is designed to keep you using it in 153 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: a very habitual way if you use much social media. 154 00:10:33,876 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: Social media comes in a big scroll, and every once 155 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:41,476 Speaker 1: in a while you get this wonderfully interesting tidbit from 156 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:46,916 Speaker 1: a friend or something else that just keeps you scrolling. 157 00:10:47,196 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 1: So what you have to do is you have to 158 00:10:49,276 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 1: figure out how to reverse engineer those cues. You need 159 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 1: to figure out how to change them or to put 160 00:10:58,716 --> 00:11:02,916 Speaker 1: friction on them. Maybe you just need a little bit 161 00:11:02,956 --> 00:11:08,476 Speaker 1: more practice repetition in leaving the phone in a specific 162 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:12,876 Speaker 1: place before you go to bed, so that it starts 163 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: to become automatic. I would say, probably just haven't practiced 164 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:22,036 Speaker 1: it enough. Well, that term friction you talked about is 165 00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:25,996 Speaker 1: really interesting. You know, our company makes a podcast with 166 00:11:26,356 --> 00:11:29,716 Speaker 1: doctor Lory Santos at Yale called The Happiness Lab, and 167 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:32,876 Speaker 1: she's done a number of episodes that have touched on 168 00:11:32,956 --> 00:11:36,996 Speaker 1: this question of, you know, how you can create friction 169 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:39,196 Speaker 1: around the things you don't want to do. But then 170 00:11:39,276 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 1: I guess a kind of you know less friction or 171 00:11:42,236 --> 00:11:44,676 Speaker 1: a system of rewards around the things you do want 172 00:11:44,716 --> 00:11:48,116 Speaker 1: to do. And the thing about friction is we don't 173 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 1: give it a whole lot of credibility simply because most 174 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 1: of us think we're in charge right as you said earlier, 175 00:11:57,116 --> 00:11:59,876 Speaker 1: We think we have free will. We think we are 176 00:12:00,156 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 1: making decisions and doing things all the time. We're not 177 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:07,116 Speaker 1: aware of how much of the time we're simply responding 178 00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 1: to the environment around. My favorite study right now on 179 00:12:11,756 --> 00:12:15,596 Speaker 1: friction is one that was done in an office building 180 00:12:15,836 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 1: as a four story office building, and it was done 181 00:12:19,676 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: with researchers who wanted people to take the stairs and 182 00:12:24,316 --> 00:12:29,196 Speaker 1: stop using the elevator. And it's a four story building, 183 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:33,476 Speaker 1: so that's possible. So what they started with is sort 184 00:12:33,476 --> 00:12:36,516 Speaker 1: of how we start with our New Year's resolutions. They 185 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:40,356 Speaker 1: started off trying to convince people right, motivate them, get 186 00:12:40,356 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: them to do the right thing. So they put up signs, first, 187 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:50,476 Speaker 1: take the stairs, it uses many more calories than the elevator, 188 00:12:51,356 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: good for your health. That had no effect. So they 189 00:12:55,476 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: tried a different approach. They tried take the stairs, saves energy, 190 00:13:00,276 --> 00:13:05,836 Speaker 1: good for the environment, save our planet. No effect. So 191 00:13:05,876 --> 00:13:09,876 Speaker 1: what they did is they slowed the clothes closing of 192 00:13:09,956 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: the elevator door by sixteen seconds, and that was enough 193 00:13:15,316 --> 00:13:20,796 Speaker 1: to reduce elevator trips by a third. So just the 194 00:13:20,996 --> 00:13:27,076 Speaker 1: simple friction of having a slow door closing stopped people 195 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:30,116 Speaker 1: from taking the elevator. And the cool thing about the 196 00:13:30,156 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 1: study is that four weeks later, when the researchers set 197 00:13:35,156 --> 00:13:39,476 Speaker 1: the elevator door back to its normal speed, people kept 198 00:13:39,516 --> 00:13:44,356 Speaker 1: taking the stairs. They still avoided the elevator because they 199 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:47,596 Speaker 1: had formed habits to take the stairs. See, and that's 200 00:13:47,636 --> 00:13:50,956 Speaker 1: maybe four weeks every day it would be enough practice 201 00:13:51,036 --> 00:13:54,836 Speaker 1: for you, Jacob in keeping your cell phone out of 202 00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 1: the bedroom. Yeah, well, well that's a good example of 203 00:13:57,596 --> 00:14:00,436 Speaker 1: adding how adding a tiny bit of invisible amount of 204 00:14:00,516 --> 00:14:05,836 Speaker 1: friction health. So we'll give me some friction examples around exercise. 205 00:14:05,876 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 1: For example, I have pretty good habits around exercise. I've 206 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,676 Speaker 1: aloys been a runner, and I get pleasure from doing it, 207 00:14:11,836 --> 00:14:13,396 Speaker 1: so you know, but I know a lot of people, 208 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 1: just especially this time of year when it's cold and 209 00:14:16,716 --> 00:14:19,916 Speaker 1: most of the country, it's just really hard to get motivated. 210 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:23,236 Speaker 1: How can you remove friction that will make it easier 211 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 1: to get out and exercise. Well, I think that the 212 00:14:27,036 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 1: motivation would come from finding ways to make it reboarding. 213 00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: I used to be a runner too. It's not easy 214 00:14:35,596 --> 00:14:38,556 Speaker 1: for me to do. So I started using an elliptical 215 00:14:39,556 --> 00:14:43,156 Speaker 1: and if you've ever used an elliptical machine, it is 216 00:14:43,196 --> 00:14:47,476 Speaker 1: the most boring thing in the world. So hated it 217 00:14:47,556 --> 00:14:51,996 Speaker 1: for a while until I figured out I can watch 218 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:55,476 Speaker 1: really stupid TV shows that I would never normally watch, 219 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: read trashy novels that I would never normally spend the 220 00:14:59,556 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: time reading, just when I use the elliptical. And since 221 00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 1: I started doing that, which is about four years ago, 222 00:15:07,076 --> 00:15:10,436 Speaker 1: five years ago, now I of it. I look forward 223 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:14,116 Speaker 1: to it, and I look forward to it because it's 224 00:15:14,196 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: that combined experience. I've been able to figure out how 225 00:15:17,436 --> 00:15:21,236 Speaker 1: to add a reward to it that makes it rewarding. 226 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,236 Speaker 1: I mean that reward in another context might be a 227 00:15:24,276 --> 00:15:27,916 Speaker 1: bad habit. Right, Watching trashy TV might be a habit 228 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:30,516 Speaker 1: you would want to break or change is part of 229 00:15:30,516 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 1: your UNI Year's resolution. But why is it it's okay 230 00:15:33,636 --> 00:15:36,836 Speaker 1: in the context of using it to create a good habit, 231 00:15:36,996 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: or because it's limited by the good habit of What's 232 00:15:39,476 --> 00:15:42,076 Speaker 1: how do you think about that? Habits are only good 233 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:46,196 Speaker 1: or bad in relation to your goals. So my goal 234 00:15:46,316 --> 00:15:50,036 Speaker 1: is to get myself exercising, and I'm going to spend 235 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 1: the time exercising anyway, So what does it matter what 236 00:15:55,636 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about when I exercise? That's how I think 237 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:03,356 Speaker 1: of it. My priority is exercise how to get myself 238 00:16:03,356 --> 00:16:06,276 Speaker 1: to do it. It's interesting what we think of as 239 00:16:06,636 --> 00:16:09,316 Speaker 1: discipline versus a habit. I mean, I have in a 240 00:16:09,356 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: few books, and I always just thought of it as 241 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:14,316 Speaker 1: a button chair problem. You know, if I was in 242 00:16:14,796 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: if I had my button the chair from nine to 243 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:19,716 Speaker 1: one every day, the book got written, and if I didn't, 244 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:23,676 Speaker 1: it didn't. So I guess I built the habit. But 245 00:16:23,956 --> 00:16:27,036 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, I disciplined myself to sit 246 00:16:27,076 --> 00:16:29,876 Speaker 1: there six days a week from nine to one, and 247 00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 1: when you thought about it. You know, nine to one, 248 00:16:31,556 --> 00:16:34,076 Speaker 1: it's only four hours a day, So it wasn't you know, 249 00:16:34,116 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 1: it wasn't like you could have a life outside of 250 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: doing that. The problem was if you didn't have the 251 00:16:38,836 --> 00:16:41,956 Speaker 1: discipline of doing that, you'd have to be kind of 252 00:16:41,996 --> 00:16:46,916 Speaker 1: doing it all the time exactly. But you know, you've 253 00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:51,556 Speaker 1: touched on an interesting point I think, which is, so, 254 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 1: what's the difference between a habit and discipline or willpower? 255 00:16:57,156 --> 00:17:02,076 Speaker 1: How can we understand that? We always think of discipline 256 00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:06,316 Speaker 1: a sort of self denial. It's the kind of white 257 00:17:06,356 --> 00:17:10,236 Speaker 1: knuckling it through. We're going to make ourselves do it. 258 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:16,316 Speaker 1: So that's a high effort process. And up until very recently, 259 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:21,956 Speaker 1: psychologists thought some people have high self control, like that 260 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:26,316 Speaker 1: they're just able to do that better than others. And 261 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:32,516 Speaker 1: what we've learned instead from observing people is people who 262 00:17:33,516 --> 00:17:38,996 Speaker 1: self report who say they have high self control, they 263 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: actually know how to form habits. So they start as 264 00:17:44,676 --> 00:17:48,076 Speaker 1: you did. If they want to write a book, they 265 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:51,916 Speaker 1: figure out what time of day they're best at writing, 266 00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:57,276 Speaker 1: or how many pages. Some people who are prolific writers 267 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: write a certain number of pages every day. Some people 268 00:18:00,236 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: write for a certain number of hours every day. I 269 00:18:03,156 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 1: mean the habit itself that they're forming has to do 270 00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:14,476 Speaker 1: with those markers. Of course, writing itself isn't a habit. 271 00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:21,836 Speaker 1: The habit is getting there and making yourself do it effortlessly, 272 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:25,956 Speaker 1: and that is the automaticity of habit. Of course, then 273 00:18:25,996 --> 00:18:28,676 Speaker 1: you have to do the cognitive work of writing on 274 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:32,156 Speaker 1: top of that, but that's a whole different thing. Yeah, 275 00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 1: does it change with age? I mean, given that this 276 00:18:35,156 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 1: is this is you're looking at what's happening inside our brains, 277 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 1: and our brains change as we get older. You know, 278 00:18:41,316 --> 00:18:44,756 Speaker 1: does it get easier or harder to change your habits 279 00:18:44,756 --> 00:18:49,756 Speaker 1: as you get older? Everything gets harder as you get older. 280 00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:52,356 Speaker 1: Taker that was sort of an obvious question, wasn't it. 281 00:18:52,356 --> 00:18:56,876 Speaker 1: But I did. But but on the other hand, there 282 00:18:56,956 --> 00:18:59,316 Speaker 1: is sort of the habit of having habits, and you know, 283 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:02,116 Speaker 1: the confidence that if you've changed habits in the past, 284 00:19:02,516 --> 00:19:04,556 Speaker 1: you know you can do it. And I often do 285 00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 1: observe that it may be more settled when you're older, 286 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:12,396 Speaker 1: but it may be more settled in a positive direction. Well, 287 00:19:12,436 --> 00:19:17,836 Speaker 1: I think there's pretty good data that all of our brains, 288 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:20,796 Speaker 1: all parts of our brains, all parts of our neural 289 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:26,356 Speaker 1: systems do age, and they get a little less efficient, 290 00:19:26,636 --> 00:19:31,476 Speaker 1: a little less effective as we get older. Research shows 291 00:19:31,476 --> 00:19:36,396 Speaker 1: that older people have a harder time of forming new habits. 292 00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:43,996 Speaker 1: That might seem like it is inconsistent with our observations 293 00:19:44,036 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 1: of a lot of older people who seem to do 294 00:19:47,516 --> 00:19:51,276 Speaker 1: things out of habit a lot. And the thing is 295 00:19:51,276 --> 00:19:53,756 Speaker 1: is that as you get older, you have a harder 296 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 1: time learning new habits, but you're still relying on all 297 00:19:58,916 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 1: of the old ones that you learned earlier in life. 298 00:20:02,476 --> 00:20:05,676 Speaker 1: And that may be where your sense of older people 299 00:20:05,716 --> 00:20:10,276 Speaker 1: are more stable, more sort of routine in their behavior. 300 00:20:10,756 --> 00:20:15,316 Speaker 1: They may be relying more on older habits and they 301 00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:19,636 Speaker 1: just had less variability in their behavior in general. So 302 00:20:19,756 --> 00:20:23,356 Speaker 1: let's wrap up with some advice for listeners who presumably 303 00:20:23,596 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 1: do have some habits they want to change. And it's 304 00:20:25,876 --> 00:20:27,756 Speaker 1: a little after New Year's now, so we don't have 305 00:20:27,836 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 1: to worry about the deadline. But what are three things 306 00:20:31,556 --> 00:20:34,356 Speaker 1: to think about just to get started. Is one of 307 00:20:34,396 --> 00:20:38,796 Speaker 1: them applying or removing friction? Yes, one of them is 308 00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: identifying the behaviors. First, you have to know what behaviors 309 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: are giving your problems and have a very clear sense 310 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:50,276 Speaker 1: of what new behaviors you want to become part of 311 00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 1: your habits, and then figuring out how to repeat those 312 00:20:54,716 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 1: on a regular basis those new behaviors, understanding the cues 313 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 1: that drive behavior, and understanding how to make the behaviors 314 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 1: you want easier. So we talked about friction getting in 315 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:15,836 Speaker 1: the way of behaviors you don't want, but the friction 316 00:21:16,156 --> 00:21:19,916 Speaker 1: in your life can also help you repeat behaviors that 317 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:24,596 Speaker 1: you do want. So, for example, there was a study 318 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:29,796 Speaker 1: done with cell phones, tracking cell phones how far they 319 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:33,996 Speaker 1: traveled to a paid fitness center. What they found is 320 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:37,516 Speaker 1: that if you travel five point one miles to a 321 00:21:37,596 --> 00:21:41,156 Speaker 1: gym on average, you only go once a month, but 322 00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:44,476 Speaker 1: if you travel three and a half miles on average, 323 00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 1: you go five times a month. So figuring out ways 324 00:21:48,876 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 1: to streamline it so it becomes easier, make it more rewarding, 325 00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:57,796 Speaker 1: so that you'll do it more. Those are the keys 326 00:21:57,876 --> 00:22:01,116 Speaker 1: to forming a new habit. And when it's when you're 327 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:03,636 Speaker 1: not thinking about doing it anymore at the habit, right, 328 00:22:03,676 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 1: I mean, when does it become a habit Exactly when 329 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,796 Speaker 1: the struggle ends and it's just cued by the environment 330 00:22:10,836 --> 00:22:14,556 Speaker 1: around you and you're not even noticing that you're doing it, 331 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:19,676 Speaker 1: that's when it's a happen. So you cite these examples 332 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 1: of friction that's mostly invisible to people, But then there 333 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:28,796 Speaker 1: is friction that is visible, fure friction you create. How 334 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:33,436 Speaker 1: can you be conscious of friction and the way that 335 00:22:33,476 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 1: it's affecting your habits if so much of it is 336 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: like the increment on how long it takes the elevator 337 00:22:39,796 --> 00:22:42,596 Speaker 1: door to clothes, something we're not aware of at a 338 00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 1: conscious level. That is a challenge that many of us 339 00:22:49,876 --> 00:22:55,036 Speaker 1: have because we believe in our own agency, right, we 340 00:22:55,196 --> 00:22:57,876 Speaker 1: think that we are making decisions, and so that leads 341 00:22:57,956 --> 00:23:01,356 Speaker 1: us to overlook many of the things that are actually 342 00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:06,596 Speaker 1: influencing us in our environment. But I do think people 343 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:12,796 Speaker 1: can answer the question what would make it easier for 344 00:23:12,836 --> 00:23:17,036 Speaker 1: me to do something and what would make it more difficult, 345 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:21,156 Speaker 1: Like if you want to save money taking your credit 346 00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:28,556 Speaker 1: card out of automatic pay sites like Amazon or other 347 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:34,396 Speaker 1: sorts of online retailers. That makes sense, and most of 348 00:23:34,476 --> 00:23:37,076 Speaker 1: us would be able to predict that that would make 349 00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,556 Speaker 1: it a little harder for us to buy things. So 350 00:23:40,756 --> 00:23:45,556 Speaker 1: once we start noticing these things, and once we're willing 351 00:23:45,636 --> 00:23:49,316 Speaker 1: to say, okay, maybe I'm not completely in charge. Maybe 352 00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:51,996 Speaker 1: there are a few things around me that also influence 353 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:56,316 Speaker 1: my behavior, and are they helping me. Once we start 354 00:23:56,436 --> 00:24:02,036 Speaker 1: noticing them, I think that we can start to identify 355 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:06,996 Speaker 1: what they are for us personally. For you, Jacob, I 356 00:24:07,036 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 1: would say, you already know your phone has this impact 357 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:17,796 Speaker 1: on you. You just keep hoping you're going to follow 358 00:24:17,876 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 1: through on your best intentions and not take it with 359 00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:25,836 Speaker 1: you tonight to bed. But over time, you'll probably learn 360 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 1: how to keep your phone regularly in another room, put 361 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:35,596 Speaker 1: the charger in another room, do something to make it 362 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:39,436 Speaker 1: easier for you to remember to leave it there before 363 00:24:39,716 --> 00:24:42,276 Speaker 1: you go to bed, and that's going to help you 364 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:48,236 Speaker 1: form that habit. Doctor Wendy Wood is Provost Professor of 365 00:24:48,236 --> 00:24:52,876 Speaker 1: Psychology and Business at the University of Southern California. Solvable 366 00:24:52,916 --> 00:24:56,716 Speaker 1: is produced by Joscelyn Frank, booking by Lisa Donne. Our 367 00:24:56,796 --> 00:25:01,396 Speaker 1: managing producer is Katherine Girardell and Pushkin's executive producer is 368 00:25:01,436 --> 00:25:03,716 Speaker 1: Mia Lobell. I'm Jacob Weisberg.