WEBVTT - Trump Refuses to Concede Election 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.360 President Trump has given no indication that he's preparing to 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.040 concede the election. In fact, Trump has indicated he's prepared 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:18.480 to explore all legal options. His personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.560 has said they're preparing to file lawsuits in several states 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.480 over ballot fraud, despite the fact that there's been no 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:29.080 evidence of widespread irregularities in the election or any fraudulent votes, 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.559 and courts have already dismissed several lawsuits in Georgia, Nevada, Michigan, 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.120 and Pennsylvania. Joining me as election law expert, Derek Muller, 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.000 a professor at the University of Iowa College of Law, 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:45.840 is litigation over the election more difficult after the votes 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.400 have been counted. Absolutely. You know, once those ballots are 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.120 taken out of the envelopes, when you're dealing with apps 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.160 and t envelopes or provisional ballots that a jurisdiction chooses 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.400 to count, you know, they're all commingled, they're all counted, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.400 they're all put the together. So legal challenges are pretty 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.920 limited at that point. You're looking at recounts recounts can 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:07.679 look at, you know, whether or not there were over 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.479 votes or under votes. That the machines are much better 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.280 at reading these things nowadays, the optical scan ballots are 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.720 very good at that. Maybe there's a little bit of 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:17.959 a dispute of a ballot here there, you know, some 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.200 set of absentee ballots that were rejected for a signature 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.440 mismatch that maybe you want to get counted. But unless 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:27.800 you're able to allege something like systemic fraud in the 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:32.640 election undermining the results, your options just become very very limited. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:34.840 Once all the ballots have been counted the first time, 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:38.240 you would be challenging ballot by ballot then, So what 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.280 would it take to have systemic fraud? What would that 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:45.400 look like? Yeah, I mean so in the jurisdictions where 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:47.800 its happened, you know, So we can think about North 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.040 Carolina congressional election that was thrown out for first systemic fraud. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.600 It was a pretty narrow election, but you know, there 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:59.240 was ample evidence of a campaign essentially bribing someone to 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:05.680 man manufacture absentee ballot requests, falsifying the absentee ballots by 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.880 completing them with forged signatures, completing them on behalf of 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.360 someone else and submitting them and that there was such 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.520 sufficient widespread evidence of fraud that the result of the 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.840 election was in doubt. Um. Now that was a few 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.079 hundred ballots, and um. Sometimes these kinds of dispute arise 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:24.400 in a in a city council or mayoral election in 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.320 a locality where it's a couple of thousand ballots that 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.760 are cast in total and someone's able to sort of 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.440 rig the election. But I mean, those are those are 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.960 pretty egregious examples, and in order to sort of achieve 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.240 fraud at that kind of scale is just, you know, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:43.919 it's very difficult to do. So I think when we're 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.399 talking about that kind of evidence, it's worth emphasizing how 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.560 rare it is and how difficult it is to achieve 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:53.480 at that at that level. Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal attorney, 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.799 on Fox on Sunday. He said that team is prepared 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:01.440 to point to dozens of witnesses in Pennsylvania who would 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.959 attest under oath that they observed instances of election mouthfeasance. Quote, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.720 there are upwards of fifty witnesses and this will be 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.160 the subject of a lawsuit that we filed Monday, for 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.320 violating civil rights, for conducting an unfair election, for violating 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.600 the law of the state, for treating Pittsburgh and Philadelphia 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.160 different than the rest of the state. What is he 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.600 referring to here. Let's say you found a couple of 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.519 witnesses who said I observed fraud. Does that just apply 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.040 to the ballot that they observed or does it apply 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.079 to the whole system there? Yeah, this is tricky. I 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.080 mean I want to work backwards for a minute to 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.200 think about the remedy. Right, Let's say you established all this, 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:40.920 what should happen? Um. You know, most of the time 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.440 we say you hold a new election, but that's you know, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.680 when when we're thinking about the Electoral College meeting December fourteenth, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.720 you know that seems pretty much impossible to do. Um. Additionally, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:54.880 you know, there's some questions about the legislature key get involved. 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.560 But so far, I think the legislature seemed satisfied to 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.600 allow the election process to play out. So we can 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:02.520 take a step back and to think about what kinds 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:04.400 of fraud and evidence they have. And there's no question 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.440 I think, Um, you know, the campaign did win on election. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.000 Observers that were in a room hundred feet away when 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:12.680 they were entitled to be six feet away. UM, to 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.640 see what was happening in those jurisdictions, and maybe you're 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:19.160 saying there's inconsistencies and how um, sort of the verification 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.320 of absentee ballots was processed from from county to county, right, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.040 and so there's a potentially an equal protection argument to 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.160 raise there. But you know, but but each of these 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.680 things it's really hard to establish that, you know, on 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:34.400 the equal protection front. Let's say that's that the treatment 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.000 across counties was so desparate as to arise the level 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.000 of arbitrary and unfair treatment, which is a kind of 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.240 level that Bush Weegre talked about, sort of arbitrary treatment 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.440 of voters from from county to county. Another is to 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.960 sort of say, well, if there's no observers, what's the harm. 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.159 You know, a lot of cases say well, observers have 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.039 a right to be there. But we also know there's 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.839 a bipartisan process of canvassing votes of Republicans and Democrats 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.960 in all counties and pencil mania uh, sort of participating 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.560 in that process even if they're not formally affiliated with 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.679 the campaign. UM. And then finally you know the fact 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:10.080 that there are witnesses who come forward and testify about 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.760 something that they can and I think the Trump campaign 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.760 has filed lawsuits where they've had witnesses saying we've observed this, 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.320 This appears to be malfeasance. This seems to be a problem. Um. 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.640 And then you know, when there's a court hearing and 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.320 an election officials given a chance to ask questions on 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.040 the other side and provide evidence about what they were doing. 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:30.720 Some of these cases have been thrown out in other jurisdictions, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:32.840 so you can have a witness alleged something, but they 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.760 might still be missing the context. So um, there's no 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.040 question I think that the Trump campaign has some legitimate 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:42.719 grievances about especially observation of the counting process. Um. I 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.880 have no doubt they're going to bring forward witnesses that 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.440 will sort of describe some regularities they saw. But then 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.320 you sort of wait for the legal process to play 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.480 out to see what the explanations are there. And again, 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.240 I think at this stage, I think it's very hard 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.719 to allege that there's such systematic fraud to suggest that 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.039 that the confidence of the election isn't doubt. Their greatest 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.520 efforts seemed to be focused on Pennsylvania. The election officials 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.640 there have said that both sides were allowed to view 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.160 the ballot counting process and that it was even live streaming. Yeah, 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:17.240 and I think again this gets to, you know, the 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.240 level of confidence you have in the election administrators at 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.000 various stages. Um, And I'll point to a couple of things. 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:24.960 So when you know, I'm a live streaming point, I 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:27.400 think it's important. But you know, it's not like it's 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.800 not like such a camera over each table providing everyone 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.159 sort of a look at what's happening in each stage 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:35.840 of the canvassing process. Right, So, Um, you know that 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.600 they're they're not concealing anything from the public, But I 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.000 don't know that it's the most servisible for us to 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.680 sort of exactly see what's happening. But you know, again, 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.160 we sort of have professional poll workers, professionals who are 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.960 sometimes some of them are full time, it's their full 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.880 time jobs. Someone more broad in part time and are 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.919 trained to handle this on a bipartisan basis. We're hopeling 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.800 some Democrats who are canvassing the vote are opening the 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.040 envelopes they're counting, and they're running through the machines if 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.719 there's a problem, if there's a dispute that arises, you know, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.120 they'll they'll they'll try to resolve it amongst themselves or 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.960 bring in a higher up to resolve the dispute. And 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.240 on top of that is a chance for campaigns to 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.040 send their own election observers to see what the workers 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:18.520 are doing. And again, I think the Trump campaign did 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.440 point out, you know, at various points in time they 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.760 were denied the kind of access they wanted, and the 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:25.200 court found in their favor that they should have had 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.560 that access. But again, what's the sort of is the 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:30.960 allegation that in the moments they weren't there, that there 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:35.640 were somehow ballots being you know, fraudulently drafted. You know, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.440 is it that, um, you know, when they're opening the envelopes, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:40.400 they're not being as careful as they should be in 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.720 verifying that all of the information on the on the 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.080 on the envelope is accurate, that that that that it's 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.960 properly sealed, that there's not stray marks on the secrecy envelope. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.320 You know that there's technical violations that can arise and 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.200 that an observer might want to challenge, But again, you know, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.400 these are you know, in my judgment, sort of pretty 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.840 small scale stuff to the extent that there's a cons 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.280 earned being raised, and without that sort of evidence that 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:07.440 there's something systemic happening, that there's some deeper concern about 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.800 the administration of the process. It's really hard to get 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:16.000 from we were denied observing to therefore we're casting sort 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.720 of doubt on the election. There's still a missing link 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.360 in there about the malfeasance that might have occurred. And again, um, 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:26.160 I just so far, I haven't seen anything to that effect. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.760 Ben Ginsburg, who has been a Republican election lawyer who 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:34.720 was behind Bush Fie Gore, he said that what he 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:38.160 thought might be happening is that the Trump campaign was 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.520 trying to slow down the count in states in the 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.000 hope that the states don't complete the job of certifying 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.280 results in time for the Electoral College to meet. So 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.840 then you have those dates coming up. Do you think 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:54.679 that they could slow it down enough that they wouldn't 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:58.160 be able to certify at least by December fourte No, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.320 I don't think so. The strategy might be to slow 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.040 it down a bit so that the legal team can 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.559 kind of gather evidence and get things together and make 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.880 sure again that some of these ballots aren't being processed 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.439 so that they can challenge them later. Right again, as 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.240 I mentioned, once they're ripped out of the envelope and 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.960 dropped into the machine are gone. They're circulated and commingled 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.640 with everything else. So I don't think it's a viable strategy, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.559 and I doubt that would be the strategies the except 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.079 they're developing one at the Trump headquarters to sort of 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.000 hold off until December fourteenth, when the electors meet. You know, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.640 that's just unrealistic. We when you think about Bush versus Score, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.760 I mean, that was thirty six days of agony with 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.280 a series of pieces of litigation happening. But there was 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:39.839 already a count in place, there was already a result. 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.080 The Secretary of State was moving forward with the certification, 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.760 and it was just a question of whether or not 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:46.760 we need to do amend that certification, whether or not 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.880 we need to change those totals, whether or not the 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.360 recount would have altered things. So at this stage, you know, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.760 I expect the count to be done in the very 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.640 near future, and then there's going to be, you know, 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.320 potentially some more litigation about whether the election results should 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:01.600 be set aside. Again, I think a very heavy lift 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:04.880 litigation over the recount, which is certainly something that can 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.199 extend a little bit longer, and how the Secretary of 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.960 State should handle uncertainty in that stage. But it's also 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:14.000 worth emphasizing as the margin grows larger in some of 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:17.319 these states like Pennsylvania, and as it's not just Pennsylvania 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.480 Trump needs to win the election, it would also be 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.800 Arizona and Georgia, and it becomes more and more challenging exponentially. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.880 So as we start to think about building that path forward, 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.679 do you know which states right now look like they 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:36.200 would be eligible for a recount? I know that Trump 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.120 said that they were going to ask for a recount 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.800 in Michigan, and I don't know. Possibly Georgia, Yeah, I 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.320 mean Georgia seems very close and could go to a recount. 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.800 Wisconsin is another place where they would be entitled to 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:48.679 a recount. You know, I think any of these jurisdictions, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.079 it depends on the state. Pennsylvania looks pretty good for 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.960 a recount to um, it depends on whether it's under 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.800 a quarter of a percent, half a percent, one percent. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.480 It can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction not You know, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.960 a recount is a recount. It it entitles you to 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.120 sort of get in there and and and look at 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.280 the ballots and rerun them through the machines. But you know, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.720 the machines are really good these days. They're very accurate 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.800 and and there's not a lot that changes in a recount. 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:17.000 Sometimes it can be a couple hundred votes. Um. So 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.800 we can go back to twenty sixteen, where there was 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.600 a recount in Wisconsin where the margin is almost exactly 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.200 the margin it was right now, and the Trump campaign 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:29.600 had won that state by about two votes and picked 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.319 up about a hundred thirty votes in the recount, um. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:34.520 And that that's something you would expect that if there's 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.320 sort of a random distribution of undercount undercounted votes, um, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.400 they're probably gonna cut slightly in favor of the candidate 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.440 who's already ahead. So when we're talking about recounts, you know, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.880 and there's that statutory entitlement to it, they can slow 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:53.280 down the process. The states have certification goals and objectives 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.600 to complete recounts by a specific period of time. Flora 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.679 two thousand was a very odd situation where there was 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.000 a lot of fighting about how to count certain ballots, 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.240 how a manual recount of these hanging chad ballots was 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.880 supposed to work, right. I think states have much more 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.840 streamlined recount procedures in place to sort of expedite this process. 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.240 And so again it will slow things down, but but 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.560 we'll just see if they choose to press forward with it, 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:20.920 what that looks like. Does the state have to do 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.959 the recount before they can certify the election? So most 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.440 states have an unofficial result and then they have, you know, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.880 sort of the lot. There's a series of stages of 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:35.680 canvassing that occur before where they get to the final certification. Now, 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.439 again in Florida, the timing was to have the recount 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.240 in place in theory, under the statute ahead of the 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.000 certification deadline. But then there might be extenuating circumstances where 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.960 you can continue and persist in your recount even after 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.360 that certification deadline. So we've seen states and I think 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:59.280 about the Al Frankin Norm Coleman election in Minnesota in 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.880 two thousand eight, a Senate election that went to a recount, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.360 and with all the judicial wrangling, it took over six 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.040 months to resolve that election. So even though there's a 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:10.800 certification deadline, sometimes the legal wrangling can also push that 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.160 much later. But one lesson we learned from Bush versus 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:16.480 Gore is that the Supreme Court was really interested in 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:21.120 having states resolve these disputes expeditiously. In presidential elections. They know, 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.199 there's that hard date of the meeting of the Electoral 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.679 College in December fourteen. Um. There's a softer date described 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.560 as the safe harbor, which this year is December eight, 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.560 Which is that states really ought to resolve all of 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.840 their election disputes pertaining to electors in order for Congress 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.800 to presume that those electors are are regularly chosen. UM. 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:42.960 And so you can miss that deadline, but they's try 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.280 not to. UM. They do update their totals a little 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:50.199 bit after after the December eighth deadline. It happens, UM. 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.720 But the point is we they're they're confident about who 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.840 the winner is at that point. Whether or not they 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.079 adjust some of the vote totals in the days after 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.800 that is a different story. UM. But but but in theory, 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:06.840 these states have statutory objectives to recount, to recount and complete, um, 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.840 you know, before the certification deadline, and only sort of 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.600 blow past that if there's some judicial problem that arises. Finally, 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.040 I want to discuss the Supreme Court in this whole thing, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:19.960 because you know, Trump repeatedly has said this is going 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.840 to be decided by the Supreme Court, and Justice Alito 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.080 issued an order. Is there any possibility at this point 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.400 that that case that the Supreme Court could still consider 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:34.400 the case of those ballots that came in after election 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.440 day three days until three days after and we're counted, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.680 So there's still a possibility they'll they'll hear that case. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.920 But I think it remains a different question about whether 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.880 they would hear it um in time to affect the outcome, 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.240 whether it would affect the outcome, and whether the remedy 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.480 they offer um would necessarily be the one that the 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:55.840 Trump campaign wants. So let me say that there's there's 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.120 a lot of like moving pieces happening here. So right 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.560 now that the mark origin in Pennsylvania is, you know, 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.800 fifty thousand votes in Biden's favor. Um, So if there's 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.280 a fight over this sort of batch of ballots after 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.200 election day, one question we ask, because it doesn't even 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.080 matter at the end of the day, right would that 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.960 batch of ballots even make a difference. It's not clear 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.440 how many are out there. It seems like a low number. 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.920 I've seen numbers, as you know, maybe around ten thousand. 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.320 I saw some report today fifty thousand, although I think 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.880 that's probably a little bit high. But even that batch 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.160 of ballots, right, it's not they're not all coming in 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.840 for one candidate. They're coming in divided amongst candidates. So 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.120 it's it's not clear that it's going to even affect 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:36.600 the outcome of the election. If the margin is wide enough, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.680 and if it doesn't affect the outcome of the election, 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.760 the court might not feel any urgency to take it 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.360 up right now. And even if they did take it up, 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.760 they might also look at it on a remedial side, 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.840 to say, listen, if we told voters before election day, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.080 these votes need to come in by election day or 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.920 won't count them, um, they're unnoticed. But after election day, 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.080 where this rule had been in place at least in 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.120 theory that if they are postmarked by election day and 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:04.880 coming in the next three days, or if they come 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:06.880 in the next three days without a postmark and we'll 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.560 count them, um, you know, it's a little unfair to 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.800 sort of pull the rug out from the from the voters. 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.160 At that point when the Supreme Court swoops in later 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.840 on and says, no, no, we're not going to count 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.200 those ballots. Now, maybe they say you're unnoticed that there 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:20.960 was litigation. Maybe you should have been a little bit 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.400 more confident. But all this is to say, the Supreme 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:27.440 Court could decide this case, you know, next year, if 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.880 it wanted to. Just that the case has been brought 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.920 up before the court. Um, it's not moot even after 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:36.480 an election. Election law cases typically sort of a vaide 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.480 muteness concerns by the Court saying, as long as you 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.280 raised it, and we know that elections are sort of 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.080 quick things, we can resolve this later. I keep referring 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.440 back to a famous case called Anderson Dress the Celebrities, 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.320 which involved John B. Anderson's campaign in nineteen eighty and 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.920 the Court issued a decision in nineteen eight three. Right, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.040 hardly hardly a kimely decision. So we can think about 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.960 the Court potentially wanted to. It has some academic interests 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.720 that wants to provide legal guidance ahead of election. Um, 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.359 but I think the odds of it deciding this case 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.359 in a way that issues a judgment that not only 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.199 affects the Trump campaign, but affects the Trump campaign. The 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.520 way that alters the outcome of the Pennsylvania litigation is 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.399 just exceedingly low. Thanks Derek. That's Derek Muller, professor at 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.680 the University of Iowa College of Law. It's been three 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.320 years since the eruption of the meat Too movement, and 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:32.080 businesses are still revamping their workplace dating policies, sometimes turning 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:36.360 to disclosure requirements that may make employees blush but don't 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.200 violate privacy laws. Joining me is employment law expert Anthony 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:43.560 on CD, a partner at Proscouer Rose. Let's start out 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.760 with the main question. Do employers have the right to 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:52.520 forbid relationships between employees because it sounds like a real 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:56.439 intrusion into their private lives. Yeah, it may seem at 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:59.240 first glance to be an intrusion into some kind of 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:03.400 a private relation ship. But when there's a workplace romance, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:08.760 there are what I call fellow travelers that go along 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.800 with the happy couple who might be involved in that relationship. 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:14.480 And what do I mean by that, Well, the number 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:19.200 one fellow traveler is the employer. If the boss is 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.760 dating somebody who reports to him or her uh, and 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:29.879 the relationship goes four as sometimes happens in that situation. UH, 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.200 it is not unusual for the employee to claim that 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.840 the boss has retaliated against that employee because of the 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.840 relationship having gone sour, and may say that I no 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.720 longer am getting the perks I was getting previously, I 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.600 didn't get the bonus. Indeed, maybe and maybe the boss 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:50.359 is on the verge of firing me. And in that situation, 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.960 everybody starts calling lawyers. The HR department will start calling lawyers, 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.080 the employee himself or herself will start calling lawyers, and 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:02.720 suddenly what was a so called private relationship now is 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.520 a very public relationship, at least within the four walls 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.920 of the employer. And in that situation, suddenly everyone's looking 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.480 at the employer as the deep pocket to make things right. 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.280 So that's the number one fellow traveler in such a relationship, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.240 and almost always if it, if it goes badly, ends 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.080 up in the lap of the employer. Another group of 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.360 fellow travelers in such a relationship in the workplace are 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.679 all the other employees who aren't dating the boss. It 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.359 is almost always the case that if one employee is 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.320 dating the boss and there are five or eight who 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:42.320 are not, and this becomes common knowledge, as it so 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.919 often does, whether it's water cooler talk or gossip, whatever, 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.040 it often becomes knowledge that is known by other employees. 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:55.320 It is I would say, certain, not even certain, but 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.760 a hundred percent certain that everybody who isn't dating the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.639 boss is going to take the position, and that the 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.080 employee who is dating the boss is receiving some form 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.880 of preferential treatment. And even if that isn't happening, it's 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.680 almost impossible to dispel that perception. And so no matter 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.400 what happens, you've got again a fellow traveler in the relationship, 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:19.199 which probably neither of the happy participants, at least at 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:23.720 the beginning they were happy, may have anticipated. So how 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:28.120 common our workplace dating policies? How long have they been 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:33.840 in place? I would say they have risen exponentially in 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.919 the last three to five years. Certainly since the Harvey 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:42.679 Weinstein scandals broke in the me too movement began, things 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.680 have very much accelerated in this regard. Employers have taken 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:53.640 a more active role in monitoring and reporting and training employees. 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.399 In connection with these kinds of things. I think maybe 0:20:56.440 --> 0:21:00.400 there was more of a propensity for employers who either 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:02.680 look the other way or considered to be a private matter. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.960 Now because of, as I say, the fellow travelers that 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.080 exist in such a relationship, Employers who are knowledgeable recognize 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.159 that these are things that are potential liability centers and 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.040 can be really problematic in the event that the relationship 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.800 goes badly. One of the things that I always think 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.080 about in terms of perspective is we know that marriages 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.560 in the United States are destined for divorce. I don't 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.600