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Speaker 1: Happy Thursday. I'm Chuck Todd. Welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Toodcast. Look, the last week has been obviously

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Speaker 1: overwhelming to the world of politics, as the fallout from

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Speaker 1: the assassination of Charlie Kirk continues to hover over a

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Speaker 1: lot of things in the political world. It has certainly

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Speaker 1: taken up a line's share of my time with you.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying I am ignoring this issue in today's episode,

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Speaker 1: but I want to play catch up a little bit

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Speaker 1: on there. So now a lot of other things of

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Speaker 1: I think important long term consequences both politically and for

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Speaker 1: the country, and all these things that I want to

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Speaker 1: get to, including on the economy. The fact that my

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Speaker 1: guest today is somebody who is a former regulator in

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Speaker 1: the Biden and Obama administrations when it comes to business,

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Speaker 1: that former head of the Consumer Financial Protection Board, plus

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Speaker 1: former who also at one time sat on the FTC,

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Speaker 1: was a commissioner at the Federal Trade Commission as well,

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Speaker 1: Hit Chopra. So that is the interview today. So, Look,

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Speaker 1: we had some big news when it comes to interest rates,

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Speaker 1: we had some big news when it comes to the CDC,

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Speaker 1: and what's going on with public health as you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a topic I'm particularly particularly focused on, but

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Speaker 1: there's some minutes. Look, you don't lower interest rates because

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Speaker 1: the economy is healthy. You lower interest rates because you're

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Speaker 1: worried the economy is headed in the wrong direction. So

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Speaker 1: I do There's a few things that I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure you guys, my devoted listeners and viewers and

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Speaker 1: followers and all of those things I think need to

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Speaker 1: be updated on. But I do. I do want to

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Speaker 1: touch on one. There's a lot of fallout obviously coming

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Speaker 1: from the Kirk assassination, and one of it has to

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Speaker 1: do with weather, whether we're going to have public displays

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Speaker 1: of the democracy, whether it's public protests or town halls

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Speaker 1: with members of Congress and elected officials, and I just

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, the only way we we long term

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Speaker 1: lose in all of this is if we retreat from

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Speaker 1: the public square and we don't have small d democratic interactions.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to highlight a quote from earlier

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Speaker 1: this week from a senator, a Republican senator from West Virginia,

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Speaker 1: S shellymore Capito, who said that she was rethinking all

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Speaker 1: of her public events. She said, I probably can't go

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Speaker 1: on parades and she added, I think anybody who is

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Speaker 1: a public figure is going to have to think more

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Speaker 1: than twice about the kind of exposure events present. Here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. She's sadly right, but I will just say

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Speaker 1: this is the wrong. It's you know, when you make

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Speaker 1: the choice to go into public service, you can't retreat

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Speaker 1: from the public. And if you are afraid of the public,

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Speaker 1: then you need to get out of public service. I

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Speaker 1: totally understand. She's a daughter of a former governor of

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Speaker 1: West Virginia, so she's she understands politics better than you know,

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Speaker 1: and what the interaction of politics better than you know,

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Speaker 1: better than most of us, and she grew up with

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Speaker 1: it in a way. Then even I didn't grow up

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Speaker 1: with it as much as I had a family interested

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Speaker 1: in it. It's one thing to be interested in it,

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Speaker 1: it's another thing to have been a part of it.

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Speaker 1: She's probably been doing the parades, and you know when

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Speaker 1: she was a little kid, hanging out with her uh

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Speaker 1: with her father, the former governor, their arch more so.

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Speaker 1: But it's I don't say this to be critical of her.

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Speaker 1: I totally understand it. But again, if you're not willing

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Speaker 1: to meet in public with the public, with your constituents

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Speaker 1: because you're afraid of whom I show up, or you

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Speaker 1: afraid of your constituents. Look, should we have good security, yes,

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Speaker 1: But if this is going to prevent open debate eight

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Speaker 1: and you're afraid of open to maate, you need to leave.

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Speaker 1: You need to step away and let somebody else come in,

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Speaker 1: because that is that is how our democracy gets undermined,

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Speaker 1: if you're not willing to interact with voters, if you're

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Speaker 1: not willing to do these town halls. Again, I don't

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Speaker 1: feel safe. I there are times that I have not

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Speaker 1: felt safe, But in many ways when you're in the arena,

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Speaker 1: and I'm you know, in my own way in the

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Speaker 1: arena and been in the arenas for some time, dealt

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Speaker 1: with my share of threats, dealt with an FBI visitor too.

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Speaker 1: On these things, you know you have a choice. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, not great, right, if you really believe in

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Speaker 1: this and you want to stay in uh, stay in

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Speaker 1: high profile journalism or stay in the in the world

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Speaker 1: of politics. You know there's going to be some risk.

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Speaker 1: But I would remind you there's risk and everything and

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Speaker 1: there's there's living is a risk. So I you stand

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Speaker 1: the initial reaction, I empathize with the senator on this.

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Speaker 1: I do. But the answer cannot be I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do these events and you can't make them. And

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Speaker 1: you can't sit here and say you're gonna you know

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Speaker 1: you can. You got to make yourself available to your

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Speaker 1: constituents if you're going to be a public servant, hard stop.

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Speaker 1: Security precautions matter. If you tell me we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: have outdoor events, there'll be more indoor events, all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff there. There are precautions to take that are reasonable.

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Speaker 1: But what is unreasonable is not showing up. That is

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Speaker 1: what is unreasonable. What is reasonable or all those safety precautions.

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Speaker 1: All right, So that is the extent. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm not sitting here trying to say we're

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Speaker 1: moving on, moving on from this conversation. Long term, Right,

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Speaker 1: We've got a huge problem in this country and we

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Speaker 1: need the right leadership. And if we don't get the

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Speaker 1: right leadership, then we ourselves have to set the parameters

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Speaker 1: of what we want in the public square, what we

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Speaker 1: demand in the public square. And I should note, okay,

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Speaker 1: this isn't as much of an impact for those of

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Speaker 1: you that listen to me on audio, but for those

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Speaker 1: of you that watch me on YouTube. Whenever we cut

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Speaker 1: out clips, any of my criticism of algorithms, you'll be

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Speaker 1: shocked to know has been suppressed on not circulated. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's their businesses, right, and these are private enterprises. It's

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Speaker 1: a reminder that it is a private enterprise. I'm well

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Speaker 1: aware of that, which means, you know, but if they

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Speaker 1: think they deserve this protection from section two thirty, what

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Speaker 1: they're actually doing to any criticism that comes at them

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Speaker 1: with their business practices is a reminder how two thirty

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Speaker 1: is obsolete. They are the minute they suppress content and

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Speaker 1: they are a publisher. The minute they decide something's not

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Speaker 1: on the front page but it belongs in a four,

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Speaker 1: they're not a publisher. And I realized by just echoing

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Speaker 1: this again, I've probably risked a limiting of how their

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Speaker 1: algorithm might treat this on some of the platforms that

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Speaker 1: we're on. But you know, you can't. They may choose

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Speaker 1: to silence critiques of their business practices, but you got

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Speaker 1: to keep you know, this is one of those I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be a stubborn mule and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: keep bringing it up, and keep bringing it up, and

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Speaker 1: keep bringing it up. Perhaps it is like I'm punching

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Speaker 1: myself the equivalent of punching myself on the face here,

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's something that's important to highlight

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Speaker 1: to you guys. So you know this is happening, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's not surprising. And I know I'm not alone

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Speaker 1: anybody that has never done this, whether you're on the

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Speaker 1: left or the right. I mean I've heard from my

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Speaker 1: friends and the right it's saying we've been telling you

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Speaker 1: this for years, you know, type of mindset. But there's

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Speaker 1: definitely it is. Again, I don't mind that they do

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Speaker 1: this if they're transparent of what they do and if

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Speaker 1: they say, hey, if you do this, this is going

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Speaker 1: to get, you know, pushed down, and if you know

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Speaker 1: these are the things that won't be pushed down. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's not exactly a meritocracy and certainly not a very

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Speaker 1: small de democratic way to do things. But transparency would help,

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Speaker 1: and that lack of transparency, of course, can be quite frustrating.

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Speaker 1: But I do want to start for today's to focus

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Speaker 1: on the testimony of now the former head of the

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Speaker 1: Centers for Disease Control, the former head of the CDC,

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Speaker 1: doctor Susan Monarez, she testified before the Senate HELPED Committee.

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Speaker 1: The Health essentially Help is the acronym, but it's the

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Speaker 1: essentially the Health and the committee in the US Senate

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Speaker 1: that has jurisdiction, oversight, jurisdiction over HHS, basically all things

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Speaker 1: that Kennedy's in charge of, including the CDC and IH

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Speaker 1: and HHS. But in order to understand the full context

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Speaker 1: of this hearing of doctor Susan Monarez, I do want

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Speaker 1: to remind people. So she was nominated on March twenty

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Speaker 1: fourth of this year. Here's how President Trump promoted her

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Speaker 1: nomination when when he technically right, it is a presidential appointment.

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Speaker 1: He called doctor Monorez an incredible mother and dedicated public

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Speaker 1: servant who quote understands the importance of protecting our children,

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Speaker 1: our communities, and our future. And he goes, and she's

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Speaker 1: going to fix a CDC that has quote had political

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Speaker 1: bias and disastrous mismanagement. A White House official anonymously told

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Speaker 1: the Associated Press at the time of her of her nomination,

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Speaker 1: she was described as a quote longtime federal staffer who

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Speaker 1: understood how the place worked, and she was being elevated

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Speaker 1: from acting to a permanent nomination. Here's how Secretary Kennedy

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Speaker 1: at the time described her. He personally labeled her quote

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Speaker 1: a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, and said

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Speaker 1: he had quote full confidence in her ability to restore

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Speaker 1: the CDC's role as the most trusted authority in public health.

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Speaker 1: He said this at her swearing in. Okay, at her

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Speaker 1: swearing in. So here's let me give you the timeline here,

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Speaker 1: because this timeline's important. Today is September seventeenth, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: She was nominated in March of twenty twenty five. She

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Speaker 1: was confirmed by the Senate July twenty ninth, twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: pretty much on a party line vote fifty one to

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Speaker 1: forty seven. Every Democrat said no. Okay. She was sworn

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Speaker 1: in July thirty first, twenty twenty five, where Kennedy once

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Speaker 1: again called her a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials.

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Speaker 1: She didn't last a month. She was fired removed as

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Speaker 1: director August twenty seventh, twenty twenty five. That was twenty

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Speaker 1: days ago today. She testified before excuse me, I'm taping

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Speaker 1: tonight today on September seventeenth. Wednesday, September seventeenth, she testified

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Speaker 1: about the circumstances with which she lost her job in

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Speaker 1: less than a month, somebody who Kennedy said had unimpeachable

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Speaker 1: scientific credentials. I think it's really important. This is not

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Speaker 1: some Biden staffer who was held over. This is not

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Speaker 1: some you know. This is somebody that the White House

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Speaker 1: personnel shop vetted, that Kennedy vetted. They all decided this

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Speaker 1: was the pick for CDC. This was the overseeing the

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Speaker 1: childhood vaccine schedule. This was the person that they were

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Speaker 1: going to trust as the spokesperson for the Centers for

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Speaker 1: Disease Control. Arguably one of the most important positions in

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Speaker 1: the federal government. It is a one of those positions

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Speaker 1: life and death type of positions. Right, decisions they make

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Speaker 1: are life and deathlike decisions. So let me just go

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Speaker 1: through some of the highlights of this hearing, because I

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Speaker 1: think it's important for you to understand. I wanted you

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Speaker 1: to understand the context with which she was nominated, the

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Speaker 1: praise and the credentials with which she was celebrated by

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Speaker 1: Trump and Kennedy and this White House. Now, she told

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Speaker 1: lawmakers on Wednesday that while she was still director, Kennedy

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Speaker 1: instructed her not to speak with members of Congress. She

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Speaker 1: is a Senate confirmed agency head where Congress has oversight

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Speaker 1: authority over her budget, and she's going to testify. She

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Speaker 1: was told not to interact with members of Congress, she said,

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Speaker 1: and then when it came to her scientific philosophy, one

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Speaker 1: senator today questioned whether her scientific philosophy made her suitable

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Speaker 1: for the position. Mana Manaraz said this, If I am

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Speaker 1: put in a position of having to say I will

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Speaker 1: seed scientific integrity to retain my job, then I'm not

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Speaker 1: the right person for this position. She was asked whether

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Speaker 1: there was any data or science behind these What happened

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Speaker 1: is the circumstances with which she quit go as follows.

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Speaker 1: According to her. Manaras said, she was ordered by Kennedy

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Speaker 1: to resign if she did not sign off on new

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Speaker 1: vaccine recommendations, which actually are expected to be released. It

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Speaker 1: could be today, Friday, sometime in the next forty eight

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Speaker 1: hours for what it's worth, but she was expected. She

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Speaker 1: was asked that she would sign off on these vaccine

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Speaker 1: recommendations essentially before they were made by an advisory panel

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Speaker 1: that Kennedy himself was stocking with his own version of

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Speaker 1: medical experts in vaccine skeptics. She said, well, could she

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Speaker 1: see the data in science behind these new recommendations for

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Speaker 1: childhood vaccines, and she said Kennedy had none. She added

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Speaker 1: that Kennedy told her he spoke to the President every

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Speaker 1: day about changing this childhood vaccinine schedule. Then Bill Cassidy,

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Speaker 1: who's the chairman of this committee, he ended up asking

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Speaker 1: her this to be clear, He said there was not

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Speaker 1: science or data, but he still expected you to change

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Speaker 1: the schedule. Mana has said yes, that is correct. So

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Speaker 1: in fairness, the Washington Post went and got a got

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Speaker 1: some response from HHS at the moment to this testimony.

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Speaker 1: And there was also an email which the Washington Post

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Speaker 1: found out about which was read. This is an email

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Speaker 1: on August nineteenth, before she was fired, and it was

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Speaker 1: an email that Manaras had sent to her. And so

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Speaker 1: this is a top aid to Kennedy. The HHS Chief

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Speaker 1: of Staff, Matthew Buckham. He wrote in an August nineteenth

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Speaker 1: email that was read today read Wednesday at this hearing,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to elevate the absolute need for political review

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Speaker 1: of major policy decisions at the CDC. This is a

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Speaker 1: direct quote from this email. I wanted to elevate the

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Speaker 1: absolute need for political review of major policy decisions at CDC.

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Speaker 1: So the chief of staff of HHS directly said that

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Speaker 1: there was going to be political influence political review over

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Speaker 1: any scientific recommendation over childhood vaccines. The fact that he

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Speaker 1: put the word phrase political review, essentially he's copying to

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Speaker 1: the fact that they are politicizing science to make decisions

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Speaker 1: about the childhood vaccine schedule. Now this email, since, like

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Speaker 1: I said, the Washington Post went to the spokesperson for HHS,

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Speaker 1: who said, this is nothing new, and he said in

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Speaker 1: a statement, as with all federal agencies, major policy and

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Speaker 1: staffing decisions must go through established clearance channels. Susan Manarez

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Speaker 1: bypassed this established process, which is unacceptable. Yes, there's always

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Speaker 1: political appointees that are in charge of these agencies, but

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Speaker 1: they also promised to let when it comes to stuff

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Speaker 1: like HHS, CDC andih that they will let science essentially

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Speaker 1: be a part of the process, if not be the

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Speaker 1: only necessary part of the process. The most troubling aspect

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Speaker 1: of this testimony that we heard today is the fact

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Speaker 1: that there was that Kennedy had no scientific data to

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Speaker 1: back up what he wanted her to do. Which was

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Speaker 1: to change the child scene vaccine schedule, which includes delaying

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Speaker 1: the hepatitis B vaccine which may be coming, something buil

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Speaker 1: Cassidy in particular is very upset about. In fact, he

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Speaker 1: closed the hearing making the case he's a medical doctor,

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Speaker 1: making the case that that needed to be done. And

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Speaker 1: we got to remember Kennedy at his confirmation hearing said quote,

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Speaker 1: I support the childhood schedule essentially as it is now,

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Speaker 1: Manara has said, under questioning from Rand Paul, who's also

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Speaker 1: a bit of a who has is a skeptic of

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Speaker 1: the childhood vaccine, says there is there too many shots

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Speaker 1: being given before someone is too and Manara said she

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Speaker 1: is open to any scientific proof or questions about it,

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Speaker 1: but there is no science that indicates there is anything

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Speaker 1: negative about this. There's hunches, there's gut checks, there's all

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Speaker 1: those things, but the science is yet the act up

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Speaker 1: a change, and if anything, the science supports that we

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Speaker 1: have made huge progress by getting this hepatitis B in particular,

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Speaker 1: which is something Yes, we know that the risk of

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Speaker 1: a child getting hepatitis B is quite small, but getting

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Speaker 1: them that immunity early down the road just allows us

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Speaker 1: to have fewer and fewer cases of hepatitis be spreading

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Speaker 1: in the community. So it was a pretty troubling set

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Speaker 1: of testimony. It was interesting to watch it was there

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Speaker 1: were well, there were three or four Republicans who were

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Speaker 1: essentially trying to defend Kennedy and trying to defend the

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Speaker 1: White House here. Roger Marshall and Rand Paul were probably

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Speaker 1: two that stuck out the most. It was also interesting

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Speaker 1: how many Republicans were not comfortable. We're more interested in

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Speaker 1: what Manar has had to say, and we're clearly moved

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Speaker 1: and concerned about what she had to say. We're going

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Speaker 1: to get Kennedy testifying back before Congress probably next week,

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Speaker 1: especially if they roll out this new childhood vaccine schedule.

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Speaker 1: But this is again, this is a Trump appointed CDC director,

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Speaker 1: a Trump vetted CDC director, a Kennedy approved CDC director

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Speaker 1: who was fired within a month because she demanded some

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Speaker 1: scientific proof in order for her to sign off on

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Speaker 1: any changes. Kennedy himself called her and she had unimpeachable

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Speaker 1: scientific credentials, So of course she's going to demand sign

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Speaker 1: some actual data to back up any of these quote

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Speaker 1: unquote hunches that all of Kennedy's vaccine skepticism seems to

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Speaker 1: be about he has no data. He never is able

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Speaker 1: to produce any data to actually back up his criticisms.

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Speaker 1: It is just astonishing that we are at this point

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Speaker 1: where we cannot trust now what comes out of the

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Speaker 1: federal government. Frankly, any part of the executive branch these days,

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Speaker 1: you have to be skeptical of what they put out.

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Speaker 1: You have to find a secondary or a third source

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Speaker 1: or somebody to find out how you know, it does

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Speaker 1: feel like everything is slightly manipulated, right, It's not fully manipulated.

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Speaker 1: That's always the key to the sort of the way

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Speaker 1: Trump handles truth, right, which is finds a kernel of

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Speaker 1: something that's true, and then and then and then goes

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Speaker 1: off on a tangent on there. But this was troubling,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's it's something I didn't want you

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Speaker 1: folks to miss it. There's a reason results matter more

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Speaker 1: than promises, just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan

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Speaker 1: is America's largest injury law firm. For the last thirty

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Speaker 1: five years, they've recovered twenty five billion dollars for more

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Speaker 1: than half a million clients. It includes cases where insurance

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Speaker 1: companies offered next to nothing just hoping to get away

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Speaker 1: with paying as little as possible. Morgan and Morgan fought

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Speaker 1: back ended up winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania, one

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Speaker 1: client was awarded twenty six million dollars, which was a

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Speaker 1: staggering forty times the amount that the insurance company originally offered.

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Speaker 1: That original offer six hundred and fifty thousand dollars twenty

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Speaker 1: six million, six hundred and fifty thousand dollars. So with

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Speaker 1: more than one thousand lawyers across the country, they know

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Speaker 1: how to deliver for everyday people. If you're injured, you

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Speaker 1: need a lawyer. You need somebody to get your back.

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Speaker 1: Check out for the People dot com, Slash podcast or

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Speaker 1: Dow Pound law Pound five to two nine law on

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Speaker 1: your cell phone. And remember all law firms are not

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Speaker 1: the same. So check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee

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Speaker 1: is free unless they win. But I want to stick

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Speaker 1: with this theme here by the way, on I'm about

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Speaker 1: to bridge us between health and the economy. And here's

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Speaker 1: how I'm doing it. I'm going to protect the name

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Speaker 1: of my listener, but a listener who I'm quite close with,

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Speaker 1: meaning they're a relative, They're not a relative that lives

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Speaker 1: with me or where I pay their tuition. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: it's not my immediate family who was trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out why their prescription drug coverage premiums were going up

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Speaker 1: forty percent for the next year. And this person was

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Speaker 1: asking me, is this due to how many prescription drugs

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Speaker 1: are being are going to be impacted by tariffs? What

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Speaker 1: is this all about? So I've been doing some research

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Speaker 1: on this topic, frankly to answer this question properly for

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Speaker 1: my for my relative on this front. And here's basically,

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Speaker 1: here's here's what is going on. First of all, there's

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Speaker 1: you have a Medicare prescription drug plan that was essentially

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Speaker 1: subsidized this year, and they're taking away that subsidy going

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Speaker 1: into next year, and some people are going to experience

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Speaker 1: a hike of up to forty percent, and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like my relative is on the upper end of this hike.

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Speaker 1: As for the issue of whether there is any sort

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Speaker 1: of tariff potential impact on prescription drugs in general, the

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Speaker 1: fact is we do import quite a bit from Europe.

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Speaker 1: We do import quite a bit of prescription particularly generic drugs,

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Speaker 1: both in Ireland and India. Those are two big places,

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Speaker 1: and with China, so the likelihood that the cost that

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Speaker 1: the raw cost of getting certain generic prescription drugs in

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Speaker 1: particular into the country is going to be impacted by tariffs.

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Speaker 1: But to answer the question from my relative, in general,

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Speaker 1: the biggest impact is this prescription drug benefit that had

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Speaker 1: basically had an artificial sort of keeping this subsidized for

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Speaker 1: this year. They're taking that away, and some people are

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Speaker 1: getting impacted quite a bit. Look, this is the type

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Speaker 1: of stuff that starts to chip away at people's personal savings,

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Speaker 1: chip away way at you know, and you add to

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Speaker 1: the cost of life, right, you're adding to the cost

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Speaker 1: to lift on this front. A few other things that

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Speaker 1: have added to that cost of living over the last

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Speaker 1: We got a report last week and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: share with this sooner. Other things got in the way

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Speaker 1: because they were bigger stories at the time. But coffee prices,

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Speaker 1: remember I was telling you coffee is the new gas

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Speaker 1: prices that you've got to keep track of. Coffee prices

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Speaker 1: continue to surge. They are once again this month twenty

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Speaker 1: percent higher than they were last year. Because now you're

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Speaker 1: starting to see all of the tariffs kick in on

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Speaker 1: some of the biggest producers. In fact, one New York

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Speaker 1: City cafe owner said they finally had to hike the

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Speaker 1: price of just a cup of drip coffee by fifty percent.

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Speaker 1: This person said, we have held off on making this

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Speaker 1: change for as long as possible, but there's no longer possible.

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Speaker 1: This adjustment is necessary, minds you. Okay, just to remind you,

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Speaker 1: we don't grow coffee anywhere in this country. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of coffee grown in Hawaii. And if

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Speaker 1: you've ever had the ConA blend and ever bought it

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Speaker 1: at the store, it's already extraordinarily extra high priced. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I have to tell you I love that stuff. When

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Speaker 1: you I'm a I'm a coffee I'm an obsessive coffee drinker.

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Speaker 1: I have finally been turned on to a French press

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Speaker 1: and owe what a difference it makes. Totally true. My

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Speaker 1: friend Tanya Davis, she's the one former colleague of mine.

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Speaker 1: She gave this as a going away gift. She was

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Speaker 1: convinced that I would finally understand and see the light.

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Speaker 1: She is right, So I thank you, Tanya. I know

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Speaker 1: you listen, so shout out to you on that And

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Speaker 1: there's nothing like it in that ConA coffee that but

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Speaker 1: it is super expensive. It was super expensive already and

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Speaker 1: it is gone. It is getting you know, that isn't

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Speaker 1: going to go up because we're I hope we're not

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Speaker 1: going to start adding tariffs to different states, but who

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Speaker 1: knows that'll happen. But in the continentally the United States,

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Speaker 1: we can't grow coffee. We essentially are importing it everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Whatever you have, you're folgers, that's imported all of it.

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Speaker 1: This stuff is hitting, and it's starting to hit on

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Speaker 1: this front. So look, we have this interest rate cut

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Speaker 1: because everybody's nervous about this economy, and we have cost

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Speaker 1: of living is inching up. The good news is it's

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Speaker 1: not going up as fast as some feared. But part

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Speaker 1: of the reason it hasn't, you know, is a lot

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Speaker 1: of people thought all of these tariffs would be front loaded.

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Speaker 1: They haven't. We've had some of them sporadic. The President

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Speaker 1: has sort of been on again, off again with some

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Speaker 1: of these tariffs, depending on the country. So it is

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Speaker 1: really now this fall that it's starting to kick in.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course you've got the job issue. And

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Speaker 1: then you know what's really scary on the job front

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Speaker 1: is when you get headlines like one that just came

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Speaker 1: over the Transom about an hour ago from the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Anthropic, one of those huge artificial intelligence companies, who

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Speaker 1: express over the next five years massive job losses in

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Speaker 1: the white collar sector, massive job losses. So this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a real challenge. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: fact one of the AI fear of AI displacement, and

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Speaker 1: AI displacement could be sort of what NAFTA did to

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Speaker 1: the Midwest, this could do to the entire white collar world.

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Speaker 1: I think it's notable that one of the first president

431
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: one of the first new policy proposals I've heard about

432
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: AI displacement comes from somebody who's thinking about running for

433
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: president in twenty twenty eight, and it's Mark Kelly. Mark

434
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: Kelly's out there proposing that the big AI companies ought

435
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: to that there ought to be a special fund that

436
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 1: they're essentially in exchange for this lax regulatory environment that

437
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: the Trump administration is pushing for these AI companies. And

438
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: I questioned whether we should have such a lax regulatory

439
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: environment because it really went well with the tech companies

440
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: when it came to social media. They're so trustworthy. But

441
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: if we're going to do that in exchange, they ought

442
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: to help create a fund for job retraining for displaced workers. Look,

443
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: it was those were among the promises that were made

444
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: during NAFTA. They all most of that stuff fell through. Yes,

445
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: some people never took advantage of some of the new

446
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: education training that was available to them, but I think

447
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: a lot of that had to do with poor implementation

448
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: of those programs. But the fact that I think it's

449
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: interesting that it's the first presidential candidate i've heard trying

450
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: to come out with a policy proposal that I think

451
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: is going to be replicated. Right, I think you're going

452
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: to hear a lot of people try to come up

453
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: with something because the idea of of of AI displacement

454
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: and actual AI job displacement by twenty twenty eight. I

455
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: think this is an issue that I do think anybody

456
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: running for president needs to be prepared to deal with.

457
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: And have a few other items in my sort of

458
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: notebook that I wanted to essentially I have a comment

459
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: or two on them. I give Trump a lot of

460
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: grief on the economy, right. I just don't think he's

461
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: got the right right focus here with tariffs. I really

462
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: I'm very skeptical of this. But he did put out

463
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: something that I noticed there was some knee jerk criticism,

464
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: like you know, Trump critics all just say, oh, this

465
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: is a terrible idea, and it's like, I disagree. So

466
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: Trump came out against the need for quarterly earnings reports.

467
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: He said it's too frequent. There's no reason why that

468
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: you couldn't shift earnings reports from once every three months

469
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: to once every six months. What's interesting is essentially investors

470
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: didn't like this, right. They want all that data quickly.

471
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: So in many ways, one of the things about the

472
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: advent of the quarterly report, many many people credit Jack

473
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: Welch when he was CEO of GE back in the

474
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, as sort of the the godfather of

475
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: the quarterly report. And at the time when people started

476
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: pushing the idea of putting out quarterly reports, it was

477
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: an attempt to get investors to see, hey, we're really

478
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: making real progress. We need you, we need your money now.

479
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: You should be buying our stock now, right, so that

480
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,719
Speaker 1: they had more capital to invest more capital use, and

481
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: the quarterly report became mainstream. But I've talked to quite

482
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: a few CEOs who have been upset about the quarterly

483
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: report culture for some time, and including Jack Welch, himself

484
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: before he died, admitted that there were certain aspects what

485
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: he said are shareholder value culture, an over emphasis on

486
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: short term profits at the expense of long term value. Well,

487
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:08,719
Speaker 1: these quarterly reports emphasize just that short term profits and

488
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,719
Speaker 1: anytime you're investors hate when companies talk about long term investments,

489
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: apparently unless it's AI. But the point is is that

490
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: you talk to and I've talked to, like I said,

491
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: quite a few people in the C suite here about

492
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: this issue. And I remember when it first hit, I

493
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: was fascinated by this and the more you think about it,

494
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: it our entire you know, day trading culture. They want

495
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: the quarterly reports. Shoot, they take weekly reports if they

496
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: could get weekly reports. But when you do the quarterly reports,

497
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: it does sort of create a culture. And it's why

498
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: so many you know, CEOs only worry about shareholder value

499
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: for the two or three years that they're going to

500
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: stay CEO. Because in many of these cases, right, it's

501
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: just like being a general manager of a football team

502
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 1: you'll trade away or a basketball team you'll trade our

503
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: way draft picks six years from now because you're likely

504
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: not going to be the GM worrying about that draft pick.

505
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: And instead whatever it takes to hurry up and boost

506
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: what you need in the moment. And so while we

507
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: see it in sports and understand it in sports all

508
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: the time, this is the equivalent of the constant demand

509
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: to show progress on your quarter report because if you don't,

510
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: if you ever have a quarterly report that says, hey, look,

511
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: we're going to take a hit for the next couple

512
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: of quarters because we're focusing on this, Investors never reward

513
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: the focus on long term and punish the crap out

514
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: of the company for doing the short term. If there

515
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 1: is one theme I've had over the last couple of weeks,

516
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: it's incentives. Right. If you have good incentives, you can

517
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: get good outcomes. If you have bad incentives, you end

518
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: up with bad outcomes. Right, you want to know why

519
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: we're in debt? Well, because there's always short term ism

520
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: when it comes to politics too. But it is not

521
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: healthy for the long term growth of any company, in

522
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: the future of a business if you're constantly worried about

523
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: the shit short term. So the point is, look, I

524
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: understand why some people always want to question a motive

525
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: of an idea with Trump, but this is where Trump

526
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: critics sometimes don't understand why he is. There are plenty

527
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: of people who give him more of the benefit of

528
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: doubt in the public than perhaps people who are experts

529
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: in the field do, because he'll say things that people

530
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: agree with. It's it's how he executes it or what's

531
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: his motivation for it? Right? Is there some personal motivation?

532
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to have to admit some company that

533
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: he is public is doing terribly right, Like true the

534
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: parent company I in truth Social never makes any money, right,

535
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: it's a total sort of feels like kind of a

536
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: grift whatever whatever that you know, it's it's a strange

537
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, I've sort of i think turned it into

538
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: sort of where the crypto bank rolls sort of creates

539
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: phony value. I'm not quite sure that that entire culture

540
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: where you use bitcoin as a you know, if you

541
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: became a meme stock like game Stop became, you all

542
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden took whatever fake you know, it wasn't

543
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: fake profit, it was real profit, but it wasn't because

544
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: your company was doing anything innovative and you just took

545
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: that cash to buy bitcoin, and then that got people

546
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: even more excited. Like it's such a strange way to

547
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: quote create shareholder value. And it all kind of feels scammish.

548
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: So I understand considering how much Trump has used, you know,

549
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: use the federal government to enrich himself and enrich his family,

550
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, and really mixing the personal and the business.

551
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: We're seeing more evidence with what he you know, these

552
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: deals with the UAE that suddenly also seemed to benefit

553
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: companies that Witcoff and the Trump family all are part of,

554
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: and this or that it is, you know, I mean,

555
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: like you know, I am, I'm in the market for

556
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,919
Speaker 1: an expert on the teapot dome scandal because I think

557
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of recreating a version of that

558
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: where you have a whole bunch of people using the

559
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: federal government to personally profit. I mean, what's going on

560
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: at the Commerce Department with creating accelerators for investment vehicles

561
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,959
Speaker 1: that you know what? And then how about this TikTok deal.

562
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: By the way, if we had a functional Congress, if

563
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: the outlines of the TikTok deal are what's been reported,

564
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: which is the Chinese government controls still it's their algorithm,

565
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: then what the hell have we done? The whole point

566
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: was to take the Chinese government influence on the algorithm

567
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: away from them. That is the point. So if you're

568
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: just it instead, there's just a whole bunch of friends

569
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: of Trump who are going to profit off of this

570
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: own it as an American company with Chinese influence. Seriously,

571
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: if we had a functional Congress that did real oversight,

572
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: that wasn't so paranoid about, you know, the wrath of Trump,

573
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: there's no this would pass the smell test for anybody

574
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: in Congress. Remember so Republican Congress that wanted to get

575
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: rid of the TikTok it was mostly people like Marco

576
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: Rubio and Tom Cotton that we're pushing this the hardest.

577
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: This is one of those where the more you dig in,

578
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: the more alarming everything about it is TikTok itself and

579
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: the ability to influence an entire generation, and the way

580
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: it goes up and down, and the fact that that

581
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: algorithm has so much influenced by the Chinese government. And

582
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: now the US government has cut a deal with the

583
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: Chinese so it's not going to be banned, but they're

584
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: still going to control the algorithm. But it's just a

585
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: bunch of Trump friends. They get the profit from this,

586
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: but we don't actually solve the problem of having one

587
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: of America's one of small d democracy's adversaries, having influence

588
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: over an entire generation on what they see now and

589
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: how they interpret information. What did we ban? What was

590
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: the point of this TikTok man? Why are we even

591
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: bothering with this at all? So anyway, that is, I

592
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: think that is a pretty good I think I'm gonna

593
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: leave it there. I think it's time for rot Choper's interview.

594
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: We touched on a few things, the biggest thing being

595
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: I think most of you to this day don't know

596
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: what the Consumer Financial Protection Board is. It was the

597
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: brainchild of Elizabeth Warren, which fair or unfair, probably politicized

598
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: it as far as Republicans were concerned. If it was

599
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: an Elizabeth Warren idea, they were going to be against it.

600
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: But it really is a consumer watchdog thing. It's like

601
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: one of those things that, like, you know, people didn't

602
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: like Ralph Nader at the moment, but everybody loves the

603
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: fact that Ralph Nader made us had seatbelts and airbags right,

604
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: and like, over time, these consumer protections are there to

605
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: benefit everybody. And just because you don't like the politics

606
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: of the person that came up with the idea doesn't

607
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 1: mean it's not helpful to you. And there really was

608
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: not any mechanism, you know, kind of the FED is

609
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: supposed to regulate how the big bank singer interact with

610
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: the consumer, and so that's essentially the brainchild of this.

611
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: One of the more interesting things he says, and I

612
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: don't want to take away from the interview, one of

613
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: the most interesting things he says is he really questions

614
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: whether fines are a good idea or not. I meaning,

615
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: when you find these institutions, they just view it as

616
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: the cost of doing business, which means you're actually not

617
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 1: incentivizing them not to break the law. You're incentivizing them

618
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: that they can essentially take advantage of consumers. If they

619
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: get caught, they pay a fine and they don't do

620
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: it anymore, but they may the fine may be less

621
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 1: than the profits that they made. That if you don't

622
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: have actual criminal where executives would be held to a

623
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: criminal accoun out for you know, essentially misusing you know,

624
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: abusing a credit process or a loan process and and

625
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: sort of taking advantage of their customers, that if you

626
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: don't have the potential for criminal penalties for those in

627
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: the C suites you're never going to get behavioral changes

628
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: because the finds are seen as the price of doing business.

629
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: If you really were worried about actually going to prison,

630
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: that would actually impact change. All right. So that there's

631
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: my little update of sort of everything that's been happening

632
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: outside the larger story of America's alarming violent polarization on

633
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: that front. So with that, sneaking a break for those

634
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: of you listening to the entire podcast in full, Real

635
00:39:53,280 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: Hit Showproun is next well. Joining me now is Rohit Chokra.

636
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: Rohit was the former director of the Consumer Financial Protection

637
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: Board Bureaus FPB. This was an agency that sprung up

638
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: after the financial crisis, during the heat of the Great Recession.

639
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: In many ways, it was the brainchild of Elizabeth Warren

640
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: and fairly or unfairly, maybe that is why it has

641
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 1: been a polarizing agency. Just getting it off the ground

642
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: ended up being a partisan effort. It really is a

643
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 1: not a partisan operation at all. It is meant literally

644
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: what it says consumer protection in it mostly when it

645
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: comes to financial instruments, whether it's credit card statements, whether

646
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: it's your the small print and loans and so it

647
00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: is one of those agencies that, UH, if the public

648
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: understood everything about it, they generally would be in favor.

649
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: But this has been one of these agencies that is

650
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 1: that it's struggled to get to sort of take root

651
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: in Washington. And I kind of want to start there, Rohit,

652
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: before we get to sort of what regulate regulating the

653
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: economy should look like and who does it and all

654
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: of those things, because obviously, with the President's attempts to

655
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: sort of get whatever, get control of the Fed Board

656
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: means all of this is uh is part of this

657
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: conversation and the entire you know, when when Democrats have

658
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 1: had the presidency, what for the two times that the

659
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: cf PB has been in existence, it had real staff,

660
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 1: and the two times that are Republicans were in charge

661
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: of the executive branch, it was not taken seriously. So

662
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: let me start there, Rohit. Why has it been so

663
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: difficult for this agency to sort of take root in Washington,

664
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: to beyond being seen as a partisan instrument.

665
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you say the CFPB and its

666
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: mission has been politically polarizing. The funny thing is that

667
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: that's only true in Washington, d C. There is nothing

668
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: really controversial. And actually, when you ask people. No matter

669
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: whether they are in a blue state or red state,

670
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 2: it's pretty common that they have a lot of skepticism

671
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: about how powerful financial institutions are treating them, whether it

672
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 2: is the outrageous interest rates on their credit cards, how

673
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: they are treated in terms of mysterious junk fees that

674
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: pop up in their life, to often their sense that

675
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: the game is really rigged against them when it comes

676
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,959
Speaker 2: to getting ahead financially. So of course there is going

677
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: to be very deep pocketed interest who not only didn't

678
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 2: want this agency ever to be formed, but have wanted

679
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 2: to kill it from day one.

680
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: What is the agency? Let's let's back check. Let's assume,

681
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: because I do think that there are. But it's like, yeah,

682
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about, But tell me more

683
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: about this agency, like to explain. You know, there's a

684
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: great you know, explain it to me like I've never

685
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: been to Washington and I you know what the intent

686
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: and then the practice of this agency. Give me the intent. First, Well,

687
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of law.

688
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: On the books to make sure that when you get

689
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: that credit card statement or when you get that mortgage,

690
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: you are not cheated. You are supposed to be disclosed

691
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 2: the key terms, and there's not supposed to be any

692
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: funny business to rip you off. But you know what

693
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: we saw, Chuck.

694
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: What is funny business? I mean, I understand you know

695
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: you say it, but give me an example of something

696
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: that Well.

697
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: Let's say you have a credit report and I put

698
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 2: on your credit report that you owe me twenty six

699
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: hundred dollars for an unpaid auto loan, and it turns

700
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: out you don't that you already paid it, but I'm

701
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 2: going to coerce you into paying it by saying I'm

702
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: going to keep this on your credit report unless you

703
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: pay me. Or let's say that you have refinanced your mortgage,

704
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: but the old mortgage company says that you still have

705
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 2: a balance with them. These are just basic laws to

706
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: make sure that you cannot be bullied and that you

707
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: cannot be ripped off. And most of it is pretty

708
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: common sense. But what we found in the years leading

709
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: up to the financial crisis was that the agencies that

710
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 2: were supposed to be enforcing it weren't doing anything.

711
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: Who were those agencies FDIC.

712
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: It was a long leg, but the top of the

713
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 2: list was the Federal Reserve Board itself.

714
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 1: That the Federal Reserve Board should have been a regulatory body.

715
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 2: Oh it was. It had all the power to regulate

716
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 2: subprime mortgages, it had all the power to regulate credit cards,

717
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: but it didn't. And actually there was a host of

718
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: other agencies, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the

719
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,879
Speaker 2: bank regulators like the FDIC, and an obscure one called

720
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. Nobody was

721
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 2: fulfilling their responsibilities because consumer protection was last on their

722
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 2: list that they were given from Congress.

723
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: Well, what explain where they were whiffing? Like what I mean?

724
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: Because I remember, you know, in many ways, Elizabeth Warren's

725
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: political career grew out of the financial crisis, right. She

726
00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 1: was sort of this expert on these issues that that

727
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: many members of the media would put on and she

728
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: started getting traction on this, and she was pushing for

729
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: this agency. Is it something that there were It was

730
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: too spread out, like one agency was looking at credit reports,

731
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: one agency was looking at loans, one agency was looking

732
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,800
Speaker 1: at credit card statements which were different from larger loans

733
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: or what was it exactly?

734
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: It was spread out and there was not enough enforcement teeth.

735
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: So what the Congress did is consolidated it and put

736
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: forth some real powers, including taking some of these big

737
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: financial institutions to court to halt them when they are

738
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: abusing consumers, to get consumers immediate refunds, and to make

739
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: them really pay rather than just sweep it under the rug.

740
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: And the record is one that has uncovered some pretty

741
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 2: big scandals. The Wells Fargo fake account scandal, illegal auto repossessions,

742
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 2: systemic errors on credit reports, student loan abuses, and these

743
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 2: are some of the things that I think Americans are

744
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 2: pretty sick and tired of dealing with. But once you

745
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: have some real focus, a lot of that was cleaned up.

746
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: In the mark.

747
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: There's a big financial institution in quick that I believe

748
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: you had levied a huge fine on and they have

749
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: since the case was thrown out. Is that correct?

750
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: Well, it's actually more interesting than that, which is that

751
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: lots of companies were subject to orders that they agreed to.

752
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:44,440
Speaker 2: These were settlements, and now routinely the new leadership of

753
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: the CFPB is ripping up those settlements and telling companies

754
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: they now have a pardon.

755
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: So give me an example of a big one and

756
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: what the settlement was about and what the money was.

757
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 2: Well, one that really bugs me is related to Navy

758
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 2: Federal Credit Union. This is not a credit union that

759
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 2: most people bank with, but one that serves a lot

760
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: of military service members, not.

761
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: Just in their family event.

762
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 2: Yea, and they were caught in a years long overdraft

763
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: fee scheme. They agreed to pay substantial penalties and frankly

764
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: refunds to all the people they cheated, but they were

765
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: able to lobby themselves out of that agreement.

766
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is the Treasury Secretary the acting CFPB head right now?

767
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: Is that? What is he?

768
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: So? Well, after I was fired, he was put in

769
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 2: and then we don't know exactly what happened. Elon Musk

770
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: maybe got involved, and now it is russ vote.

771
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 1: Oh, the budget directors in charge of this net That

772
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: is right. This was supposed to be an agency that

773
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: was a derivative of the f which what would that

774
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 1: have meant in the Executive Branch ORG chart?

775
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all the bank regulatory agencies, Congress has tried

776
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 2: to keep them a little bit separated from the political

777
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: football of Congress, right, and so they all have dedicated funding.

778
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: They all are subjected to lots of oversight, but they have,

779
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,439
Speaker 2: just like the FED, their own budget line to draw

780
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: funds for because we have seen how special interests are

781
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: able to hijack that process in order to stop oversight

782
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: of their industries.

783
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: You're actually uniquely suited to answer this question because one

784
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: of the arguments that some Republicans made against starting this

785
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: agency is well, what we have the FTC. You've actually

786
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: served on the FTC, I believe, so what's the difference.

787
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: Well, it's a weird arg human in my view, because

788
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 2: the FTC has always been banned from bringing enforcement actions

789
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: against banks. And guess what industry is involved in offering

790
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 2: financial services to consumers banks, So it's it is a

791
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 2: little bit weird. And in fact, the FTC is also

792
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 2: supposed to be policing everything from horse racing to pharmaceuticals

793
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 2: and more. And Chuck, I'm totally open. I love the

794
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: idea of reorganizing restructuring. In fact, the CFPB when it

795
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: was created another agency was totally eliminated, So I'm up

796
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 2: for that. But this is a fake reason. There is

797
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: no duplication, and the law is clear that the CFPB

798
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 2: has exclusive authority to enforce these laws against big banks.

799
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: No one else can.

800
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 1: So is and is that the privy the CFPB is

801
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: the primary regulatory focus is banks and credit unions.

802
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: And all those other non bank companies that offer mortgages,

803
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: auto loans, student loans, credit reports, deck collectors. It's really

804
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: all those people that you're playing those monthly bills.

805
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: So in theory, the target targets credit card company.

806
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 2: That's yeah, so target's credit card, all of those credit

807
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 2: card companies were totally subject to the enforcement and the

808
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: rules of the CFPP.

809
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: And the FTC never had oversight over how Target issued

810
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: credit cards.

811
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,240
Speaker 2: Well, credit cards are issued through banks.

812
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: Usually you enter in some sort of partnership, but license exactly,

813
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. So in that sense, it would be

814
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 1: the bank that was running that's right. Yeah, Like you

815
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: know right now Apple is looking for a new bank

816
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: to back, right, it's been Goldman Sachs, and they're looking

817
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: for a different bank to back them. Uh so you

818
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have That's where the CFPB, not FTC.

819
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in fact, we brought a major enforcement

820
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 2: action against Goldman Sachs for abuses in that Apple card

821
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 2: product and against the likes of City Bank others, including

822
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 2: for those store branded cards.

823
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: What if you had to make the case to Republicans

824
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: of why they should be in favor of the CFPB,

825
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: what would be your case.

826
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 2: Well, we do, and behind closed doors often they would

827
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 2: give us ideas for things we should pursue. This is

828
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: what's so ironic when you look at the consumer complaints,

829
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: when you look at the individuals that benefit from this

830
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 2: type of watchdog agency. It is not some sort of

831
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: red or blue item. In fact, a disproportionate numbers of

832
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 2: people from red states have benefited from it. But Chuck,

833
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: this is in some way simpler than what you're asking.

834
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,800
Speaker 2: This is about big money and power and who calls

835
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: the shots in Congress and in Washington. And when you

836
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: have big financial firms with lots of power in Washington,

837
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 2: guess where they are going to try and target some

838
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: of the defanging of law enforcement. And the CFPB was

839
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 2: a prime target.

840
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: What does crypto fall into this? And you know, is

841
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 1: it something that you would argue belongs in CFPB, which

842
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: it argues, does it belong in the FTC when it

843
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: comes to regulating these stable coins, regulating how they're sort

844
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: of issued, how they're used, et cetera, or are we

845
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 1: still trying to figure that out? I mean, I know

846
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: they passed the Genius Act, which was supposed to give

847
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: some clarity to this. But if you were still the

848
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: head of the CFPB, would you be arguing that what

849
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: parts of do you think should fall under under the CFPB.

850
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, So crypto's kind of if we think of it

851
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: as a technology inasmuch that it's being used as a

852
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 2: consumer payment so that you can use at retail stores whomever,

853
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 2: that would be covered by the CFPB. As you know,

854
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: most of crypto is more in the speculative trading world.

855
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: It's more you know, kind of what we would have

856
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: our market regulators, SEC and other agencies c.

857
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: Well, that's what the big, big question is is it

858
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: is it something that belongs Is it a stock or

859
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: is it a commodity?

860
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's really the stuff that's traded. I think

861
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 2: what we're starting to see is an effort to create,

862
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, what's known as stable coins, which is

863
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: basically a kind of payment devices like a credit card.

864
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, it's more it's I mean, it's just a

865
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 1: new way to call a credit card. I mean, and

866
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 1: so it used to be a whole bunch of companies

867
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: would issue a credit card. Now they're going to issue

868
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: stable coins, that's right.

869
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 2: And so there are lots of laws and rules on

870
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: the books that for example, when your credit card or

871
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 2: debit card is misused, you have some rights to dispute

872
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 2: it when it's fraudulent. You know, those laws have to

873
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 2: apply to for these stable coins. And that was that's

874
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 2: the type of thing that the CFPB would enforce if

875
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 2: that if those technologies really came to pass. And one

876
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 2: of the things we really focused on was how these

877
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 2: big tech companies were creating new payment instruments and currencies

878
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 2: and to make sure that they were subject to the

879
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 2: same type of oversight when it came to fraud, hacks, errors,

880
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: and other places where consumers can lose a lot of money.

881
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: Were you there when Facebook floated doing their own currency

882
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 1: and then they backed off after I think after they

883
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 1: realized that the government would be all over them.

884
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: Well, I was, I was an FTC commissioner at the time,

885
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 2: and you know when Mark Zuckerberg and Cheryl sam and

886
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 2: Burg others when they concocted this. This was a big

887
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 2: moment because it showed that big tech companies, if they

888
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 2: could get their hands on currency, it would give them

889
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:19,560
Speaker 2: the power to track transactions throughout the entire economy and

890
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 2: be able to in some ways coerce merchants as well

891
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 2: as know a full picture of how we spend, when

892
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 2: we spend, our behavior, so that they could target us

893
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: even further.

894
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: Well, that gets it to who should I mean? So,

895
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: for instance, our data right you know, we right now

896
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: have so little for whatever reason, there's very few laws

897
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: are protecting our data right now. It gets bought and

898
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: sold all over the place. And I guess the question

899
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 1: is if data is being used to market to me,

900
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: that would be the FTC. If data is being used

901
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: to look under the hood of my financial transactions, I

902
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: guess that would fall under CFPB. I guess what I

903
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: is isere, if we're ever going to have a Congress

904
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 1: that tries to pass a data bill of rights, where

905
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: should where should the public assume that the government? Which

906
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: agency should the government be? Should we be expecting to

907
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: protect our abuse of our personal data?

908
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't actually think the public cares which agency.

909
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 2: They just want it done.

910
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: Well, I agree they don't care. So the question I'm

911
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: asking you is which agencies?

912
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 2: I think the SEC is probably the right place. This

913
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 2: is a they already has children's privacy, that already has

914
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: all sorts of data protections. It's true the CFPB others

915
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 2: do enforceable.

916
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: So when it floats into what you just described, that

917
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: you thought that that tech companies could suddenly understand our

918
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: spending habits in ways that just make marketing to us

919
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: even even more more aggressive and more potentially coercive. Is

920
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: the ftc up to that.

921
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 2: Well, we would need to make sure of it. But

922
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 2: of course if it involves currency and payments, it maybe

923
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: the FPP may have to do it. If it involves

924
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: your health data, there might be other agencies. We don't

925
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: want to create too much of a monopoly on enforcement.

926
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 2: You want there to be aggressive corporate enforcement. And we

927
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: also want to make sure that if the FEDS are

928
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: asleep at the switch like they were with opioids, like

929
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 2: they were in the lead up to the mortgage crisis,

930
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 2: that states and individuals can also vindicate their rights.

931
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the FED here a little bit. Right,

932
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: the President is trying desperately to sort of get more

933
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: spots to fill on the FED board. Looks like his

934
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: You know, they've spectacular failed on Lisa Cook, assuming that

935
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: the documents that have since surface that show she there

936
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: whatever whatever charges they thought they were going to be

937
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 1: able to bring against her. They're not going to be

938
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: able to bring against her, which likely locks her in,

939
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: will buy her some political immunity for some time. I

940
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: think here, but what does what is it that the

941
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: Fed is regulating that he wants control of that you

942
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: think would be doue harm to the economy.

943
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: You know, the Founders when they drafted the Constitution, they

944
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 2: were very freaked out about the idea of the president

945
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: controlling the money supply.

946
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: They had no we didn't have a Federal Reserve Act

947
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: back then, though they didn't.

948
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: They were really worried though what they saw in England

949
00:59:55,080 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 2: where the Kings were just using the money supply to

950
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 2: their own personal advantages, and in fact, a glorious revolution

951
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 2: in England was partially fomented by that. And they said

952
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 2: they wanted to make sure the Congress was in charge

953
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 2: of regulating money. You know, you fast forward through history

954
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 2: and you see that to get out of some of

955
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: the problems our country had, we formed this new central

956
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: Bank to be able to make sure that there wouldn't

957
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: be financial panics, depressions, constant booms and busts, and to

958
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 2: make sure there was some steadiness to our money. And

959
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: I actually think that we should be worried about a

960
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 2: president completely controlling the money supply, just like Kingswood, because

961
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 2: this has the power to pick winners and losers, to

962
01:00:54,640 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 2: reward friends, to punish enemies, and to use the control

963
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 2: of money in ways that can give them even more power. Right,

964
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 2: So we see the FED usually is discussed as this

965
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 2: kind of priests and priestesses who you know, are PhDs

966
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 2: in economics. But this really is a big, big question about.

967
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 3: Who has the power to regulate money.

968
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 1: Well, I guess it's just one of those things where

969
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 1: I didn't know we called it into question. Our economy

970
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 1: has been fairly successful, only when we've had a couple

971
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 1: of you know, asleep at the switches moments, only when

972
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: we politicize the FED back with Arthur Burns and Richard Nixon.

973
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: But for the most part, we see we seem to

974
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: have a pretty good blueprint of how this should work,

975
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: and yet here we are.

976
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in fact, I think that there's a lot

977
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 2: of effort to say, how do we restore Federal Reserve independence.

978
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 2: I think it's now been dead for several months now.

979
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 2: In the in the lead up to President Trump getting

980
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: inaugurated for the second time, you saw the Federal Reserve

981
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: make a lot of political moves to stave off President Trump.

982
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 2: But I think that just showed that they were willing

983
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: to bend the need.

984
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: There's every single industry, the media industry, that what's left

985
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: of it in so called traditional media did it. You've

986
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: seen it in all sorts of political spaces. You've seen

987
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: it in the corporate world. You know, I've seen you know,

988
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 1: you've even seen it. The mayor of Washington, d C.

989
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: Right like doing trying to.

990
01:02:58,760 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 2: A peace a pee.

991
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: He said, hope that he doesn't come with a sledgehammer,

992
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 1: and yet of course he always comes with the sledgehammer

993
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: no matter what you do.

994
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 2: And they see this Federal Reserve institution as in some

995
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 2: ways being able to wield immense power and chuck, look

996
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 2: at what the FED did during the financial crisis and

997
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: during COVID injecting trillions of dollars through Wall Street and

998
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 2: the financial system. While Congress is sort of debating about

999
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 2: programs here.

1000
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,520
Speaker 1: I'd argue that FED saved our economy twice.

1001
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the question is is that now who will

1002
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 2: be able to pull the strings there and what will

1003
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 2: that power potentially be weaponized to do. I think that's

1004
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 2: really the question that will give me give me some examples. Right,

1005
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 2: we have Turkey as the example.

1006
01:03:56,360 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: I had Douglas Houle Ticket, a long time sort Ofublican

1007
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 1: leaning economists, was a Republican appointee to run the CBO

1008
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 1: At one point Romney John McCain's been you know so,

1009
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 1: but he is always held up. Turkey is like, do

1010
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 1: you want to know what happens when a central bank

1011
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 1: gets politicized? Let me show you Turkey walk me through that.

1012
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's the most traditional argument, which is

1013
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 2: a president or authoritarian takes control over their central bank,

1014
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 2: tries to juice the economy by essentially printing lots of money,

1015
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 2: and the result is lots and lots of inflation. I

1016
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: think that's just like a narrow part of what could happen.

1017
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 2: But remember the Federal Reserve and other central banks, they

1018
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: also have the power to buy assets. They can determine

1019
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: what to buy. And you hear all sorts of ideas

1020
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,880
Speaker 2: now being thrown at them, should they be buying bitcoin?

1021
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: All sorts of sorts of things and the entire crypto.

1022
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: I mean that just the the mainstreaming of of of

1023
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: some of this crypto, that to this day is just

1024
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: an idea of tech people that want to make something

1025
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 1: valuable and create value out of something out of thin air.

1026
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: And the truth is is that the FED essentially has

1027
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 2: a credit card with no limit and no real interest rate.

1028
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: And people observed this.

1029
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,040
Speaker 1: King of debt as president in the United States right now,

1030
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 1: he's going to love that.

1031
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 2: And people were nervous after the financial crisis when the

1032
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: FED intervened in the economy, when it did in Congress

1033
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 2: actually strip some power from it. And then during COVID,

1034
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, injected a huge amount of money in the system,

1035
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 2: pushing up the stock market others. So I think this

1036
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 2: is a power that some people are sniffing and they

1037
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: want to use it.

1038
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: So there's some of the some of my libertarian friends

1039
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: who you know, and some of these things that the

1040
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: logic I get, but in practice it doesn't always work

1041
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 1: in a libertarian utopia. But there there's a strong bent

1042
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,600
Speaker 1: in the libertarian crowd of essentially you hear the you

1043
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,439
Speaker 1: hear the phrase audit the freat audit the FED right,

1044
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 1: and you'll have others even argue there shouldn't be a FED.

1045
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 1: What do you say to those folks, I mean.

1046
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 2: It can be it comes off as a little goofy sometimes,

1047
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 2: but I try and have good faith on what they're

1048
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 2: worried about.

1049
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 1: What do you believe they're worried about? Right, I take

1050
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 1: the good faith path with me here with Rand Paul, right,

1051
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 1: you know, And that's essentially you were talking about here.

1052
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: Who's probably the Ran and Ron have been the most

1053
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: coherent critics of the FED. And you know, doesn't mean

1054
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: that what they're advocating is mainstream, but they're probably two

1055
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 1: of the louder critics.

1056
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you see a growing spectrum of critics

1057
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 2: of the FED that have essentially said they are positioning

1058
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 2: themselves as the wizards of the economy and they have

1059
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 2: control over this enormous essentially spending an investment power that

1060
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 2: has very little checks on them.

1061
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 1: And is that a fair criticism? You think that is? Oh?

1062
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's something to be said that a

1063
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: lot of decisions that they do make would probably be

1064
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 2: better for the Congress to be making.

1065
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 1: You know, welcome to Congress gave up so much authority

1066
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: the hour of the last decades. I mean, I'm just

1067
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm so sick and tired of Congress not under members

1068
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 1: of Congress not reading the founding papers and not understanding

1069
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: what their role was intended to be.

1070
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 2: And they have totally just transferred power to someone else

1071
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 2: rather than actually playing their role.

1072
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: So this is it because that's hard. It's hard to

1073
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: do this work in Congress, and it's easier to let

1074
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,320
Speaker 1: a president do it and blame them when they mess up.

1075
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:22,720
Speaker 2: I think that's right, and I think we got to

1076
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 2: figure out what is it that we want this institution

1077
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: to be doing. I think the FED should be making

1078
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 2: sure that we're running the economy with the real economy

1079
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 2: in mind, not just the financial sector. We want family farms,

1080
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 2: small businesses, others to be able to get loans to

1081
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 2: hire people and produce. And I think that there is

1082
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 2: real questions about whether we have that system today. We're

1083
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 2: a handful of very large Wall Street institutions called a

1084
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 2: SHOT's on how credit and payments move in the economy.

1085
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: So I want to take you back. I remember when

1086
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 1: during the height of the financial crisis, when Dodd Frank

1087
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: was being written, and there were and you basically had

1088
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 1: two senators who were trying to work together, Bob Corker

1089
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:27,640
Speaker 1: and Mark Warner, who were seen as two of the

1090
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: more conversant senators on the issue, meaning they actually sort

1091
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:36,760
Speaker 1: of understood it, didn't their eyes didn't glaze over, you know,

1092
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: at the second briefing of how Dodd Frank should work,

1093
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 1: et cetera. But I also had many I remember talking

1094
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:50,839
Speaker 1: to a few Treasury officials who said, well, only Corker

1095
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 1: and Warner really understand this, and that's what makes it

1096
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: difficult for Congress to write this law. And I look

1097
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 1: at it as if something is so complicated that the

1098
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 1: representatives that are elected to Congress don't understand it, then

1099
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 1: maybe maybe the law itself is flawed. What say you?

1100
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 2: I think that sometimes we create excuses for politicians on

1101
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 2: how they can worm their way out of making decisions

1102
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 2: about big problems. And the truth is is that money

1103
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 2: and banking from the time of the British Crown as

1104
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 2: our componial ruler, these were hard and Chuck, there's lots

1105
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:43,080
Speaker 2: of hard things about defense and weapons and patents and medicines.

1106
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 2: This is their job. And I think that when we say, well,

1107
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 2: let's just substitute it for kicking the can down the

1108
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 2: road and letting someone else decide or see what happens,

1109
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 2: that's really I think malpractice and we should be willing

1110
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 2: to actually hold our leaders more accountable to get more done,

1111
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:11,719
Speaker 2: even if it's tricky.

1112
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 1: So let me ask this, did you ever try to

1113
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,479
Speaker 1: regulate or look under the hood of an algorithm that

1114
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,519
Speaker 1: was used to decide, you know, how much credit somebody

1115
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 1: was was qualified for? And if you did, what was what?

1116
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: How did the tech companies respond?

1117
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 2: So the answer is yes. And there's a law in

1118
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 2: the books that says if a lender is using some

1119
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:50,519
Speaker 2: type of third party score or data, they've got to

1120
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 2: tell you if they deny you that loan, a clear

1121
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: statement of reasons as to why. And we would come

1122
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 2: up against some financial firms who they themselves didn't know

1123
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 2: how to interpret the algorithm themselves, and the answer was,

1124
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:13,080
Speaker 2: then you can't use it. And this is what is

1125
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 2: happening throughout the entire economy. And as AI, which to

1126
01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 2: me always has been a little bit of a marketing term,

1127
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:23,639
Speaker 2: you should think of AI or an algorithm. There's really

1128
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 2: just a complex set of mathematics that is generating some

1129
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 2: sort of decision or content. And we've had that in lending.

1130
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,400
Speaker 1: Probably I always say it's a probability model. Yeah, this

1131
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:40,720
Speaker 1: is an intelligence. It's just a probability model.

1132
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,759
Speaker 2: And we've had it for a long time in financial services,

1133
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:49,440
Speaker 2: it's called a Fyico score. There's all sorts of these algorithms,

1134
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 2: and to me, they have to have some degree of accountability.

1135
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 2: When you are using those algorithms and you cannot explain

1136
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 2: why someone is being denied alone, then you have to

1137
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:03,559
Speaker 2: be accountable for that.

1138
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, how would you deal with AI pricing? You know,

1139
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:14,400
Speaker 1: when I am, I wish Delta Airlines flew to more

1140
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: places because of the major airlines. I sort of feel

1141
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: like that they're the most consumer friendly, and yet I'm

1142
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 1: upset at them because they're the ones that have although

1143
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 1: I guess to their credit, they're at least admitting that

1144
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 1: they want to do this. They want to lean in

1145
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 1: on AI pricing. What do I mean by that, Well,

1146
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 1: they want to maximize how much I pay versus how

1147
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:39,120
Speaker 1: much my daughter pays, right, and she's a grown adult

1148
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: with her own income level. I'm a grown adult with

1149
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:46,479
Speaker 1: my own income level, and so it's pretty clear Delta

1150
01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: wants to treat us as different consumers. They're going to

1151
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,560
Speaker 1: assume that I can pay more, and they're going to

1152
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 1: charge me more. They're going to assume she can pay

1153
01:13:53,320 --> 01:14:00,640
Speaker 1: less and they're going to charge her less. How's that

1154
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: not discrimination? And how are we going to deal with

1155
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:11,680
Speaker 1: this quote unquote probability model dictating personal pricing that you know,

1156
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:13,599
Speaker 1: what I see as a price and what you see

1157
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: as a price will not be the same thing. How

1158
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 1: is that legal?

1159
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? I actually think we need to have a moratorium

1160
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:26,120
Speaker 2: or ban of this. I was diagnosed with a serious

1161
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:31,679
Speaker 2: medical issue several years ago, and like many other people

1162
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 2: who deal with cancer other serious issues, sometimes notice in

1163
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:45,640
Speaker 2: targeted ads really stuff they wouldn't have gotten before. You know,

1164
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: no health exam, life insurance, all of this stuff. And

1165
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: you really got to wonder if somebody knows if you

1166
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 2: just lost a parent, or if you are struggling with

1167
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 2: mental health issues, or if.

1168
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: You're well on the airline so you have a death

1169
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 1: in your family, you're gonna have to buy this ticket.

1170
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 2: They should not be able to use that information at all.

1171
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 2: And I don't care how they try and justify it.

1172
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 2: What is the legal justification that they're using? What's what's

1173
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 2: have you heard a good? Their legal justification is that

1174
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:26,720
Speaker 2: it's not illegal. And it is true that there are

1175
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:29,759
Speaker 2: some things that are considered off limits. We have anti

1176
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:35,479
Speaker 2: discrimination laws that cover race and other protected classes, but.

1177
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 1: The socioeconomic status something that's a protected class.

1178
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 2: Though no it's not. And in fact, one of the

1179
01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 2: best consumer protections I think that is out there is

1180
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 2: the price tag, because you know how much it is

1181
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 2: before they know anything about you. And I think we

1182
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 2: should be seriously worried about the shift in even brick

1183
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:01,799
Speaker 2: and mortar retail that are moving toward digital price tags

1184
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 2: or where you have to scan a code to figure

1185
01:16:04,920 --> 01:16:06,040
Speaker 2: out the price for you.

1186
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,679
Speaker 1: I think I think it's pretty obvious this is happening

1187
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: with Uber and Lyft, but I don't know how to

1188
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:16,920
Speaker 1: come it. Fact right, I have to say, you know

1189
01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: where they're just you know, if I use the black

1190
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: car service, somebody else doesn't. You know, the black car

1191
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: price might be lower for somebody that doesn't use it

1192
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:27,920
Speaker 1: as often as maybe I do because I'm willing to

1193
01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:33,479
Speaker 1: use it, you know. It just it it feels powerless

1194
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 1: as a consumer, and it's just like, great, this is

1195
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 1: only going to get this is going to get abuse.

1196
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,680
Speaker 1: And I just worry that Congress doesn't even understand how

1197
01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:43,120
Speaker 1: to stop it.

1198
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,759
Speaker 2: Well, that's why if they don't, the states should pass

1199
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 2: laws to ban it. I think this is something we

1200
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 2: have to keep pushing on, because that is turning into

1201
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 2: a world where AI is not going to really help people.

1202
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:02,240
Speaker 2: It is just going to help come needs exploit people well.

1203
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:05,080
Speaker 1: And what it'll do is those that are truly wealthy

1204
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 1: will create false personas that make them seem poor. I mean,

1205
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 1: you know people will hack that system and it will

1206
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:14,839
Speaker 1: actually be self defeating.

1207
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:17,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe. I mean sometimes it's hard to even

1208
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 2: figure out how to avoid some of this. You know,

1209
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,639
Speaker 2: they say, oh, you get different prices if you're checking

1210
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 2: on something, checking a price with an iPhone versus an

1211
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 2: android versus a desktop. I mean, I don't want to

1212
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 2: waste all my time to thinking about all this. I

1213
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 2: want it to just be fair. Just like I don't

1214
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,800
Speaker 2: want to walk onto an airplane and have to inspect

1215
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,559
Speaker 2: some sort of records to determine if it's safe. It

1216
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 2: should just not crash when I walk on that plane.

1217
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,520
Speaker 2: And this is why I think we have big problems

1218
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:51,800
Speaker 2: on our hands. When you have an administration that is

1219
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:59,040
Speaker 2: essentially defunding and destroying law enforcement that is essentially keeping

1220
01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 2: the things we want to do fundamentally safe, so that

1221
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 2: now we have to even be worried about it.

1222
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's interesting you called it law enforcement, right,

1223
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:15,760
Speaker 1: which is basically you know, the financial police, right, And

1224
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 1: if people saw the regulators as sort of cops, they

1225
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:23,400
Speaker 1: might you know, there are those that don't want the

1226
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 1: regulators call them bureaucratic bureaucrats, and those that do call

1227
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:31,560
Speaker 1: them cops. Right Like that seems to be the messaging

1228
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:35,440
Speaker 1: fight that takes place when it comes to regular regulators

1229
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: in general, but specifically regulators for the for the financial world.

1230
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,679
Speaker 2: Well, I think here's also the issue, which is that

1231
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:48,640
Speaker 2: there are people who have had experiences dealing with nonsense

1232
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:54,439
Speaker 2: red tape. And then there's I think the big financial firms,

1233
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 2: big tech firms, others where people perceive that they seem

1234
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:02,799
Speaker 2: to be breaking the law over and over and over again,

1235
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 2: and then there's just no consequences.

1236
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: There consequences, and this is something to say, oops, we're sorry.

1237
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: They'll put out an apology sometimes.

1238
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:14,440
Speaker 2: Oh and and chuck, you will have the law enforcement

1239
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 2: agency or the Justice department or the regulator beat their

1240
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 2: chest about how tough they are because of the fine

1241
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 2: they've gotten. And then you look in the stock market.

1242
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 2: The fine is it perceived by investors as just a

1243
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:32,879
Speaker 2: tiny cost of doing business. And one of the things

1244
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 2: that the industries have criticized me for is that I

1245
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:40,160
Speaker 2: really believe that when you have a repeat offenders like that,

1246
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:46,439
Speaker 2: fines are not a deterrent. They're sometimes an incentive. If

1247
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 2: you're making money and just paying a fine out of

1248
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 2: your profits, you have to face real accountability, like individuals

1249
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,479
Speaker 2: in the C suite where they calling the shots, and

1250
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:03,160
Speaker 2: should they be accountable or should we put real limits

1251
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,360
Speaker 2: on these companies in terms of growth restrictions, or frankly,

1252
01:20:07,800 --> 01:20:15,200
Speaker 2: if they're criminally convicted of massive fraud, then perhaps they

1253
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 2: should no longer be in business.

1254
01:20:17,960 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: They should somehow lose their license, or their executives should

1255
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: be criminally charged or something like that.

1256
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 2: That's right, and that's the real deterrence that I think

1257
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 2: people know. If it's a small business, they will be

1258
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 2: shut down, and if it's a big player, they just

1259
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 2: skate it pat And I think that lack of that

1260
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 2: two tier justice is a very big frustration for a

1261
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:47,200
Speaker 2: lot of people, and everything right, and it makes them

1262
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 2: feel that their government is just on the side of

1263
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 2: people who are exploiting them. It bothers me so much

1264
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,600
Speaker 2: because we saw it with opioids, we saw it with

1265
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 2: the more crisis. There's been so many cases, and now

1266
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 2: with big tech companies routinely violating privacy other laws, it

1267
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:20,480
Speaker 2: just seems that there is no consequences.

1268
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,920
Speaker 1: Look, they're singularly I don't know what happened to the

1269
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:28,160
Speaker 1: travelers in this country, but they're singularly responsible for the

1270
01:21:28,240 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 1: current political environment that has caused all sorts of physical

1271
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 1: harm to people. I do think that Section two thirty

1272
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,520
Speaker 1: doesn't protect these tech companies the minute they create an algorithm,

1273
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 1: because the minute you create an algorithm, you have you've

1274
01:21:41,920 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: become a publisher. That's right.

1275
01:21:43,800 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 2: You are no longer some neutral pipe correct that information

1276
01:21:47,360 --> 01:21:49,439
Speaker 2: is flowing from it is I.

1277
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: Think Section two thirty is doesn't matter anymore. Once you've

1278
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: decided to start an algorithm and create one to do this.

1279
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:03,720
Speaker 2: And once you are using behavioral targeting, you are not

1280
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:08,599
Speaker 2: some sort of passive billboard or telephone wire. You are

1281
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,360
Speaker 2: actually in the business and you should be accountable for

1282
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 2: your content. And you know what, Chuck, we have had

1283
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 2: a situation in our country where this complete lack of

1284
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 2: accountability has led to many social media networks in tech

1285
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 2: platforms being havens for crime, recruiting terrorists, and so much

1286
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:35,080
Speaker 2: harm to kids and teens. And it just feels like

1287
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 2: if the current system persists, it will only get worse.

1288
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:45,519
Speaker 1: No, there's no and this is it is. It is

1289
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,200
Speaker 1: really frustrating that the tech companies are taking no responsibility

1290
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:52,400
Speaker 1: or whatsoever and they've not been held accountable. We all

1291
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:56,880
Speaker 1: know it in different ways. There that they're sort of

1292
01:22:57,439 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 1: you know that their predator, they're sent marketing predators, of

1293
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 1: using our data against us, their predators, whether it's on

1294
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 1: our what we watch or hear or see, or how

1295
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:10,599
Speaker 1: we spend our money.

1296
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 2: I think that if we don't solve this, we are

1297
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:17,840
Speaker 2: going to continue to move to a darker, darker place.

1298
01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:19,360
Speaker 2: I always tell people completely I.

1299
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:21,479
Speaker 1: Do agree with that. I mean, when the government, when

1300
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 1: people stop believing the government is there to look out

1301
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:31,920
Speaker 1: for them, it's the beginning of people deciding no, if

1302
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:33,599
Speaker 1: they're not following the law, watch should.

1303
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,479
Speaker 2: I yeah, and we that is where we're moving to.

1304
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 2: I feel that I fear that when you have a

1305
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 2: small click of companies that can control the flow of

1306
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 2: money and control the flow of information, those are the

1307
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 2: two things that a society basically rests on. And you

1308
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 2: have now a situation where it is a small group

1309
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:59,800
Speaker 2: of people who have the power to pick winners and

1310
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 2: losers commercially and politically.

1311
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:07,280
Speaker 1: How did you get here? Not how did you get

1312
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 1: here today, but how did you become a regulator? How

1313
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,639
Speaker 1: did you? You know? Is that is when you went

1314
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:19,760
Speaker 1: to college. I mean, you're very impressive degrees, both the

1315
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 1: Harvard and Wharton. But how'd you end up on this path?

1316
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 2: You know?

1317
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:26,120
Speaker 1: I I'm your origin story.

1318
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:30,120
Speaker 2: I went to business school, which really that school was

1319
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 2: a way it has produced financers, felons, everything in between.

1320
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 2: And finance was actually to me a place that was

1321
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:50,080
Speaker 2: supposed to be about creating companies, creating opportunities. And when

1322
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 2: I witnessed the financial crisis and the extraordinary failure of

1323
01:24:58,720 --> 01:25:04,600
Speaker 2: federal law enforcement and regulators, I really became so disillusioned

1324
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 2: with how the system was working. And I think the

1325
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,719
Speaker 2: only answer to it was really to choose a different

1326
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 2: path and in some ways taking on these concentrated corporate

1327
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:24,879
Speaker 2: interests who want to see the regulators as lap dogs

1328
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:30,640
Speaker 2: rather than watchdogs. That's what we have to stop. And

1329
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 2: I think that lots of people around this country. I

1330
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:39,400
Speaker 2: really spent a lot of my professional life a decade

1331
01:25:39,439 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 2: ago on confronting these big student loan companies.

1332
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:44,880
Speaker 1: Where were you doing that?

1333
01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 2: How are you doing When I was at the CFPB

1334
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 2: before I was director and after the mortgage crisis, discovered

1335
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:56,599
Speaker 2: that there was a aftershock all of those families who

1336
01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 2: were unable to afford college for their kids because they

1337
01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 2: lost everything. All of those states and cities that lost

1338
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:10,720
Speaker 2: all their tax base, tuition searched, student debts searched, and

1339
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 2: you had a whole crop millions and millions of people

1340
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 2: who were owing a trillion dollars. For a few years,

1341
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 2: there was I think over a million people each year

1342
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 2: defaulting on their student loans. And this was basically a

1343
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:37,160
Speaker 2: total and complete, just travesty for the society. Young people

1344
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:43,240
Speaker 2: owing that much money, graduating into a horrible economy in

1345
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine twenty ten, and would never The

1346
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:51,960
Speaker 2: data shows that some of them never catch up. And

1347
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:55,920
Speaker 2: now you see a response to that financial crisis that

1348
01:26:55,960 --> 01:27:00,120
Speaker 2: has pushed up asset values and no one even think

1349
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 2: they can really buy a home when they have that

1350
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,680
Speaker 2: much debt. So I think that this is part of

1351
01:27:06,880 --> 01:27:10,160
Speaker 2: a generational piece too, which is that it feels that

1352
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 2: prior generations were able to have the benefit of a

1353
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 2: country that actually gave them affordable college, lots of pathways

1354
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:27,439
Speaker 2: to be able to have a stable financial life to

1355
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 2: raise a family. And now we just don't live in

1356
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:34,320
Speaker 2: that country. We live in a place where it is

1357
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 2: basically a treadmill that you run faster and faster on

1358
01:27:40,920 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 2: just to afford the basics. And that is not what

1359
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:45,759
Speaker 2: we want.

1360
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:51,200
Speaker 1: Rob Emmanuel was famously said, and a sort of one

1361
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:55,920
Speaker 1: of these after post Obama presidencies conversations that I remember

1362
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:59,160
Speaker 1: him saying, he goes because he was an advocate against

1363
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 1: pursuing AMARE at the time, or of the Affordable Care Act,

1364
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:07,000
Speaker 1: and his argument was the public was so you know,

1365
01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:11,640
Speaker 1: hurting from the financial crisis, that really the better politics

1366
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:16,320
Speaker 1: would have been some old Testament justice, right, And the

1367
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, when people think back to the financial crisis,

1368
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: it is always nobody got frog marched, nobody got held

1369
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 1: criminally accountable or destroying frankly pieces of the global economy.

1370
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:35,880
Speaker 1: So let's say there had been old Testament justice who

1371
01:28:35,960 --> 01:28:39,600
Speaker 1: deserved to be brought up on criminal charges. You know,

1372
01:28:39,680 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 1: I think about this because you know, with during the

1373
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 1: first couple of years of this century, we had the Enron.

1374
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: Enron was sort of the poster child for a handful

1375
01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:53,599
Speaker 1: of companies that were ripping people off, and we put

1376
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:55,680
Speaker 1: the n Ron guys in jail, and I think in

1377
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,439
Speaker 1: some ways it was symbolic, but it made I think

1378
01:28:59,479 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 1: it sort of served its purpose, right, somebody paid a

1379
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 1: price with the financial crisis, nobody paid a price. Well,

1380
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:09,559
Speaker 1: actually a lot of people paid a price, but not

1381
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 1: the people that were the perpetrators. If you could go

1382
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,799
Speaker 1: back in time, who would you have brought up on charges?

1383
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 2: I think there's a long list of investigations that were

1384
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 2: never even completed. I'm sorry, I'm misspeaking, never even started now,

1385
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:32,879
Speaker 2: I can't remember what, you know, like the credit default swaps?

1386
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 1: Like where how did this start? Right? Should there have

1387
01:29:35,520 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: been an investigation to figure it out? Like where did

1388
01:29:39,200 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 1: this financial instrument start? And where did it come from?

1389
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:43,880
Speaker 1: And who thought it was a good idea? And who

1390
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:46,760
Speaker 1: who noticed the flaw the first time they realized, uh,

1391
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:48,880
Speaker 1: oh these are going to turn into really bad loans.

1392
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know what often is the excuse is

1393
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:58,479
Speaker 2: to push the blame on frontline employees or others. Maybe

1394
01:29:58,479 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 2: they're not you know, paid, but to say, well, as

1395
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:08,480
Speaker 2: a rogue actor within the bank or within the financial institution.

1396
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:14,160
Speaker 2: And Chuck, this is not just true of the financial crisis.

1397
01:30:14,200 --> 01:30:17,679
Speaker 2: This has been true of many other big corporate scandals too.

1398
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:22,519
Speaker 2: And I think that once again, we are supposed to

1399
01:30:22,600 --> 01:30:27,559
Speaker 2: be a nation of laws where people are supposed to

1400
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 2: adhere to those laws, and if they don't, they are

1401
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:35,480
Speaker 2: held accountable. And I think when you don't have that,

1402
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 2: that is just another signal that maybe the answer isn't

1403
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 2: to follow the law. Maybe it is to push the

1404
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 2: envelope so far and then deal with figure out how

1405
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:51,920
Speaker 2: political power to lobby yourselves out of it.

1406
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I could easily picture somebody at a financial

1407
01:30:57,400 --> 01:31:00,640
Speaker 1: institution saying, by the time they figured it out out,

1408
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:03,839
Speaker 1: we're going to be so much further down the road

1409
01:31:04,200 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 1: financially that we're too big to fail, we're too big

1410
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:12,360
Speaker 1: to punish, we're too big to bring charges on. I mean,

1411
01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:15,040
Speaker 1: do you think it feels like that was the mindset?

1412
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:21,040
Speaker 2: Well? In fact, there was concerns about this with Attorney

1413
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:25,759
Speaker 2: General Holder at the time about concerns and he said

1414
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 2: it about concerns about prosecuting some of these large financial

1415
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:37,160
Speaker 2: institutions because of potential market disruptions. So when too, there's

1416
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:40,680
Speaker 2: too big to fail, too big to jail, and the

1417
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 2: list goes on and Chuck, I will tell you that

1418
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 2: the accountability isn't just for those firms. Yeah, there is

1419
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 2: also a sense, I think this is true in both

1420
01:31:54,240 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 2: political parties that senior officials, politicians, abnets secretaries who were

1421
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 2: involved in supposed to policing all of this, and in

1422
01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 2: fact they just seem to keep getting jobs and keep

1423
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 2: holding positions of power. There's no question that under the

1424
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:21,080
Speaker 2: George W. Bush administration the deregulation was a pivotal reason

1425
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 2: for the financial crisis, But even those of us who

1426
01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:29,759
Speaker 2: identify as Democrats would admit that in the late nineteen

1427
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:34,400
Speaker 2: nineties the choice by top treasury officials and the Clinton

1428
01:32:34,439 --> 01:32:40,880
Speaker 2: administration to massively deregulate, of course, had a major role

1429
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:45,759
Speaker 2: in the financial system melting down and destroying trillions of wealth.

1430
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:49,840
Speaker 2: And I hope that we keep that in mind when

1431
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:54,680
Speaker 2: we determine who should be the stewards of policymaking.

1432
01:32:55,720 --> 01:33:00,639
Speaker 1: Are you making the case that, basically, because because there

1433
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,840
Speaker 1: were bad actors in both parties that in some ways

1434
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 1: it was easier to move on than do nobody want

1435
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:11,919
Speaker 1: nobody wanted to see where these investigations would go because

1436
01:33:13,200 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: there were too many friends that might get scooped up

1437
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,120
Speaker 1: in this swooped up in this investigation.

1438
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's more of that law,

1439
01:33:22,120 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 2: and there's lots of federal agencies that give white glove

1440
01:33:26,240 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 2: treatment to these big firms and big law firms. But

1441
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:33,559
Speaker 2: I also think there's a piece of this where we

1442
01:33:33,640 --> 01:33:39,760
Speaker 2: should not have key officials who were supposed to be

1443
01:33:39,800 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 2: guarding against the financial crisis, guarding against these major breakdowns,

1444
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 2: to continue to wield lots of power in our system.

1445
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:52,679
Speaker 2: And I think that is what we are seeing right

1446
01:33:52,720 --> 01:33:57,320
Speaker 2: now happening in our politics, that people are feeling like

1447
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:01,800
Speaker 2: there is a click of companies and individuals who just

1448
01:34:02,360 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 2: don't face any consequences. And I think that's what people

1449
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:07,360
Speaker 2: want to move past.

1450
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:10,720
Speaker 1: Oh, I think there's another populist firestorm coming. You know,

1451
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:14,520
Speaker 1: if you could argue that Trump was a cultural populist,

1452
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 1: it was not an economic populist, even though he wants

1453
01:34:17,479 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 1: to claim he's want But I wonder if there's going

1454
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:25,360
Speaker 1: to be this sort of Teddy Roosevelt like revolt right now.

1455
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:29,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it does feel like we're repeating at least

1456
01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:33,320
Speaker 1: or rhyming with some of the late nineteenth century early

1457
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 1: twentieth century relationships that government and industry had.

1458
01:34:38,360 --> 01:34:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is what the challenge is going forward.

1459
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:46,040
Speaker 2: We need I am the first to say, we want

1460
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 2: there to be lots of businesses, lots of enterprise, lots

1461
01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 2: of new companies, but we don't want them to be

1462
01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:01,320
Speaker 2: so big and concentrated that they take over a politics

1463
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:04,320
Speaker 2: and that they are not subject to the laws of

1464
01:35:04,439 --> 01:35:06,680
Speaker 2: the land, that each and every one of us is

1465
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:07,320
Speaker 2: opposed to it.

1466
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:15,679
Speaker 1: Here too, well, Rohn, I feel more informed and more angry.

1467
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:17,480
Speaker 1: So well done, I guess.

1468
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know, anger isn't always bad, but you have

1469
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 2: to channel it into doing something. And I think too

1470
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 2: many people right now are tuning out because they are mad,

1471
01:35:29,880 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 2: but they actually need to.

1472
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:32,960
Speaker 1: Do I kind of think they've lost trust in both

1473
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:35,280
Speaker 1: parties to do the right thing. And I don't blame them,

1474
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:37,720
Speaker 1: because when the chips were down, did the parties do

1475
01:35:37,800 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 1: the right thing? The answer is no.

1476
01:35:40,280 --> 01:35:42,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've lost trust in the media, they've lost trust

1477
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 2: in so many institutions. But again, tuning out is not

1478
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:51,000
Speaker 2: the answer. It is to fix the system, no matter

1479
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:53,240
Speaker 2: how rotten it is, and you think.

1480
01:35:53,080 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: We have all the agencies we need, We just need

1481
01:35:58,000 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 1: more resources and teeth.

1482
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want. I don't want Americans have

1483
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 2: to learn all the alphabet soup of agencies. I just

1484
01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:12,520
Speaker 2: want people to feel they have control over their government

1485
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:19,600
Speaker 2: to prosecute law breaking and to protect people from these abuses,

1486
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:25,400
Speaker 2: and frankly, so that their government is responsive when dealing

1487
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:30,160
Speaker 2: with the unbelievable challenges we face, whether it is technology

1488
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:34,439
Speaker 2: and AI or the high prices that people are paying

1489
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 2: for college and for groceries, and they haven't seen that.

1490
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 2: And the way to do that is to make sure

1491
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:46,880
Speaker 2: that politicians and leaders are standing up to these concentrated

1492
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:47,920
Speaker 2: corporate interests.

1493
01:36:48,200 --> 01:36:54,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does feel as if it is. Even if

1494
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:57,439
Speaker 1: the regulation is taking place, the public doesn't quite see

1495
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:01,519
Speaker 1: it right. Do you think what advice would you give

1496
01:37:01,520 --> 01:37:05,400
Speaker 1: a future head of CFPB. Would you tell them that

1497
01:37:05,439 --> 01:37:09,080
Speaker 1: they've got to sort of be more of a public person,

1498
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:11,280
Speaker 1: that they've got to explain their actions more, they got

1499
01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:15,920
Speaker 1: to bring people in. I mean, it feels like now

1500
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,120
Speaker 1: every entity has to have a communications strategy if you

1501
01:37:19,160 --> 01:37:22,680
Speaker 1: want to sort of protect your financing or protect your credibility.

1502
01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 1: And I hate that, you know, in some ways, I

1503
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:28,840
Speaker 1: don't want our regulators to become well known because in

1504
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:33,240
Speaker 1: many ways that might undermine their ability to regulate in

1505
01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:36,679
Speaker 1: industry where a person gets singled out and gets turned

1506
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:42,960
Speaker 1: into a political weapon in order to cover up what

1507
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:45,400
Speaker 1: it is that person's looking for. But it does feel

1508
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: as if you do kind of need to let the

1509
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:51,000
Speaker 1: public know what this agency is supposed to be doing.

1510
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:56,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really a push, especially for whoever

1511
01:37:57,000 --> 01:38:01,719
Speaker 2: will be president next and after that, at if they

1512
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:08,439
Speaker 2: are not energetically explaining how if they are pushing to

1513
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:12,640
Speaker 2: improve people's lives. I think that's been true for centuries,

1514
01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:17,000
Speaker 2: and those who succeed are the ones who let the

1515
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:20,479
Speaker 2: public know what they are doing and who they are

1516
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:21,160
Speaker 2: up against.

1517
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: Llokay, I see a state I used to joke that

1518
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: AG was short for aspiring governor if you were a

1519
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:30,559
Speaker 1: state AG. But you know what the state ags that

1520
01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:34,679
Speaker 1: became governor, it's because they were explaining to the public

1521
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:37,519
Speaker 1: what they were doing. That's exactly right, danity they were

1522
01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 1: going on, and usually it was consumer protection that was

1523
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:43,920
Speaker 1: at the heart, and that's the most bipartisan thing you

1524
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 1: could do.

1525
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 2: I think that I feel pretty proud that the CFPB

1526
01:38:50,200 --> 01:38:56,639
Speaker 2: helped to eliminate billions and billions of dollars in junk fees,

1527
01:38:56,760 --> 01:39:01,519
Speaker 2: whether it's illegal overdraft fees or being nickeled and dime

1528
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:07,280
Speaker 2: wherever you are. But you're right. It does mean that

1529
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:14,320
Speaker 2: presidents others they need to explain everything that they are doing.

1530
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: Now they do. I mean it, you know you can't. Yes,

1531
01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:21,880
Speaker 1: citizenship comes with some responsibility, but people have other things

1532
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:24,479
Speaker 1: in their lives and you can't expect them to do

1533
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:25,120
Speaker 1: all the research.

1534
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:28,920
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. They are just trying to run on

1535
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:32,200
Speaker 2: that treadmill to stay afloat, and it's our job to

1536
01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:33,400
Speaker 2: slow that treadmill.

1537
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 1: What are you doing now? Which does a former regulator

1538
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:38,519
Speaker 1: doing when they're in the private sector.

1539
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:41,759
Speaker 2: I'm not in the private sector. I am still trying

1540
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 2: to figure out what do we do to make sure

1541
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:49,400
Speaker 2: that we fix this broken economy. And I'm spending a

1542
01:39:49,479 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 2: lot of time helping out people in the States, whether

1543
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:56,280
Speaker 2: it's state ags and others do their part to fix it.

1544
01:39:57,600 --> 01:40:00,559
Speaker 1: Rather Choprah, like I said, I feel smarter about And

1545
01:40:00,600 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 1: that's what I was hoping my listeners would get out

1546
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:06,600
Speaker 1: of this and viewers and just understand that you know,

1547
01:40:07,240 --> 01:40:10,320
Speaker 1: I think I think one of the mistakes that journalism

1548
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:14,160
Speaker 1: has made is not enough consumer fronting investigations. There's too

1549
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:20,719
Speaker 1: many investigations that are about getting famous people in you know, attention,

1550
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:25,799
Speaker 1: rather than like, you know, just helping people save money

1551
01:40:26,200 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 1: or not get ripped off. And whether you're in government

1552
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:32,360
Speaker 1: or you're in media, if you're focused on consumer protection,

1553
01:40:33,000 --> 01:40:33,960
Speaker 1: that's how you're in trust.

1554
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 2: You're here, all.

1555
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:50,519
Speaker 1: Right, my friend, I appreciate the time, Thanks so much. Well,

1556
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed that conversation because I do think

1557
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 1: many people don't understand enough what these alphabet agencies do

1558
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:01,439
Speaker 1: and should be doing for you. So, you know, I

1559
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:08,360
Speaker 1: think I said this early on. You know, I am

1560
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 1: in many ways I do interviews wanting to under because

1561
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 1: I want to understand something better. I know you think

1562
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:18,439
Speaker 1: you understand what the Consumer Financial Protection Board was supposed

1563
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:21,000
Speaker 1: to do, but I wanted to learn more. And I figure,

1564
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 1: if I want to learn more, why don't I share

1565
01:41:22,479 --> 01:41:27,000
Speaker 1: with everybody else? But I do believe that you know,

1566
01:41:27,080 --> 01:41:29,400
Speaker 1: ninety percent of what I'm should be doing here is

1567
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:33,040
Speaker 1: helping to educate you, educate everybody on how something more,

1568
01:41:33,120 --> 01:41:36,120
Speaker 1: how politics is working on any given day, how these

1569
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:39,559
Speaker 1: agencies work, how politics influences them, all of those things.

1570
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 1: That's what I'm hoping you get out of this. Yes,

1571
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:45,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to have takes. You may not agree with

1572
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 1: every one of my takes. I hope you don't because

1573
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:53,080
Speaker 1: it means I've got a diverse audience. I want an

1574
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:56,880
Speaker 1: intellectually diverse audience. That's what I'm going for. This is

1575
01:41:57,000 --> 01:41:59,639
Speaker 1: it's very Most people don't want to build an audience

1576
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 1: that way. They want just to partisan audience one way

1577
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 1: or the other. That is unhealthy. I think that's why

1578
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 1: we're in the polarizing situation that we're in. I think

1579
01:42:08,320 --> 01:42:12,040
Speaker 1: the label of both sides really sort of destroyed political

1580
01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:16,400
Speaker 1: dialogue unfortunately, and it was partisan hacks that we're attacking

1581
01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:20,000
Speaker 1: anybody that attempted to do this with the with the

1582
01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:22,360
Speaker 1: both sides labels, and I think we now see what

1583
01:42:22,439 --> 01:42:25,320
Speaker 1: it's gotten us. So anyway, I hope, I hope you

1584
01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 1: got something out of that. Trust me, I did, or

1585
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:31,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have shared it with you. All Right, I'm

1586
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:33,679
Speaker 1: going to do a few questions and do my little

1587
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:38,879
Speaker 1: college football preview, uh and keep that going. It's very exciting.

1588
01:42:38,880 --> 01:42:41,400
Speaker 1: In the Todd household game days coming to the University

1589
01:42:41,400 --> 01:42:43,840
Speaker 1: of Miami in Coral Gable. So I'll have a few

1590
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 1: thoughts on that, But let's start with some questions. Ask Chuck.

1591
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 1: This one comes from Brian, and he says, check, would

1592
01:42:53,640 --> 01:42:58,000
Speaker 1: you discuss possible independent senator states? In your last episode,

1593
01:42:58,040 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 1: you knowed Nebraska's unique one house legislator and it made

1594
01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:03,559
Speaker 1: me wonder if state senates mostly duplicate their lower houses

1595
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 1: just with larger districts, why keep them at all? Wouldn't

1596
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:09,519
Speaker 1: they single chamber like Nebraska's progressive reform from the nineteen thirties,

1597
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:12,960
Speaker 1: make government more efficient other than state senators protecting their

1598
01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,719
Speaker 1: own jobs. Why hasn't this idea caught on elsewhere? Thanks Brian,

1599
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:21,519
Speaker 1: You're right, you know, it's one of those things where

1600
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:24,800
Speaker 1: most states decided to just, you know, replicate the three

1601
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:28,040
Speaker 1: branches of government and then in the legislative branch, right

1602
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 1: a lower house and an upper house. I'm with you.

1603
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 1: I think it the logic of the people's house. And

1604
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 1: at the time, remember it was the people's house versus

1605
01:43:39,439 --> 01:43:41,680
Speaker 1: what the state legislators were going to create with the

1606
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:44,680
Speaker 1: it was the House of lords. Okay, you know, if

1607
01:43:44,720 --> 01:43:47,240
Speaker 1: you want to see it essentially right with parliament. Right,

1608
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:49,080
Speaker 1: you have Parliament and then you have the House of Lords.

1609
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:51,960
Speaker 1: Well you have the US House, and we had our

1610
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:55,080
Speaker 1: version of the House of Lords senators. Now with the

1611
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:59,200
Speaker 1: redistricting wars, I do worry we are literally switching the

1612
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:02,519
Speaker 1: mindset where it is. State legislatures are now deciding who's

1613
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 1: in the House and the people get to decide who's

1614
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: in the Senate. Again. Founders would be scratching their heads

1615
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 1: over this one. I could come up with a great

1616
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:19,280
Speaker 1: defense of duplicating the House Senate thing other than I

1617
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:23,640
Speaker 1: just can't. And you're right, there's something about the unicameral

1618
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:26,800
Speaker 1: state legislature. You know, we don't notice we really don't

1619
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:28,920
Speaker 1: have it on the city level, right, we just have

1620
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 1: one city council in most places, or a county executive board,

1621
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:38,200
Speaker 1: or you know, they're different names for it. So you

1622
01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: could you make a good case. I don't have a

1623
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:46,320
Speaker 1: good defense of the two houses in the states, not

1624
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: at all, other than state house districts represent a smaller

1625
01:44:52,240 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 1: group of people. State senate districts represent a larger group

1626
01:44:55,479 --> 01:44:59,640
Speaker 1: of people. But ultimately, if you're looking at city, state, federal,

1627
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:05,040
Speaker 1: you know, then you know in some places, the state

1628
01:45:05,120 --> 01:45:08,280
Speaker 1: senate districts are sometimes as large or larger than these

1629
01:45:08,320 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 1: bigger states in the congressional districts, or they're almost about

1630
01:45:11,160 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 1: the state the same size. So you know, maybe what

1631
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:17,800
Speaker 1: you would do is is argue you'd still want I

1632
01:45:17,840 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 1: think you'd want your state legislative districts to be smaller

1633
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:25,920
Speaker 1: than your congressional districts. I think Texas it's getting close

1634
01:45:25,960 --> 01:45:28,960
Speaker 1: to where in California where it's it's starting to become

1635
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:36,640
Speaker 1: that way. But you know, I I think in this

1636
01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:41,240
Speaker 1: day and age, fewer politicians on the state level might

1637
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:44,680
Speaker 1: be a good thing I have. I will tell you this,

1638
01:45:44,800 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I always put it this way. The more

1639
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:53,719
Speaker 1: local the legislature, the fewer watchdogs there are, which means

1640
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:57,559
Speaker 1: there's more opportunity for corruption. So we have local media

1641
01:45:57,600 --> 01:46:02,200
Speaker 1: has been sort of destroyed, state bureaus been destroyed, lobbyists

1642
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:05,360
Speaker 1: and developers on the local level, lobbyists on the state

1643
01:46:05,439 --> 01:46:08,559
Speaker 1: level having a ton of influence, maybe too much influence,

1644
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,679
Speaker 1: and in some ways having too many politicians running around

1645
01:46:11,680 --> 01:46:16,680
Speaker 1: these state capitals almost invites some of that corruption. I

1646
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:19,240
Speaker 1: kind of would rather you make a good point, because

1647
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:21,320
Speaker 1: I'd also like to see these state legislatures, you know,

1648
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:22,680
Speaker 1: some of them are full time, some of them are

1649
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:24,840
Speaker 1: part time. Some of them are so part time they

1650
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:26,920
Speaker 1: can't really make a living, which then means they have

1651
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:29,320
Speaker 1: to go make a living, and then you can get

1652
01:46:29,320 --> 01:46:31,599
Speaker 1: corrupted by that, like you know, in the state of Florida,

1653
01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:34,080
Speaker 1: when you find out who the Speaker of the House

1654
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:38,080
Speaker 1: is two years in advance, which is essentially the process

1655
01:46:38,080 --> 01:46:40,160
Speaker 1: that they use in the State of Florida, suddenly there's

1656
01:46:40,200 --> 01:46:43,320
Speaker 1: almost like a bidding war to employ the speaker because

1657
01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:45,599
Speaker 1: again it's not a full time job. They can hold

1658
01:46:45,600 --> 01:46:47,360
Speaker 1: a full you know, as long as it's not too

1659
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:51,360
Speaker 1: conflict ye of interest, but there's plenty. It's obviously very

1660
01:46:51,360 --> 01:46:56,839
Speaker 1: easy for that to be manipulated. So I'd be generally

1661
01:46:56,840 --> 01:46:59,639
Speaker 1: in favor of going to single chambers in all the houses,

1662
01:47:00,240 --> 01:47:05,679
Speaker 1: as long as they made it so that I dumped

1663
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:08,880
Speaker 1: the part time legislature aspect of it. I think there's

1664
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:11,559
Speaker 1: are all of these state economies are too big to

1665
01:47:12,000 --> 01:47:14,759
Speaker 1: have state you know, we're not we're not in agrarian

1666
01:47:14,840 --> 01:47:19,679
Speaker 1: society anymore. We're meeting every other years enough, and most

1667
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:21,599
Speaker 1: of these states that still have the every other year

1668
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:23,960
Speaker 1: they end up doing special sessions. So these guys end

1669
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:27,439
Speaker 1: up having to work a lot harder for their terrible

1670
01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:31,760
Speaker 1: pittance of pay, particularly if you're a state rep in

1671
01:47:31,800 --> 01:47:37,560
Speaker 1: one of these part time legislative states. So this is

1672
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: what I love about taking questions, Brian, This is a

1673
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:44,439
Speaker 1: good idea. I will try to remember this throughout our

1674
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:47,280
Speaker 1: various reforms, and when I have one of these smart

1675
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:51,320
Speaker 1: political scientists who are talking about because I am obsessed

1676
01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:55,679
Speaker 1: with getting us interested in a constitutional convention, this would

1677
01:47:55,680 --> 01:48:00,120
Speaker 1: all obviously be state stuff, but who knows, maybe we

1678
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:03,640
Speaker 1: can interest people in streamlining government. Let's get rid of

1679
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:07,640
Speaker 1: let's go to let's copy Nebraska, go to unicameral legislatures.

1680
01:48:07,680 --> 01:48:10,240
Speaker 1: All right, Matt al Wright's love the new longer format.

1681
01:48:10,280 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 1: I remember you back from your MSNBC numbers guys days.

1682
01:48:13,840 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 1: I agree, Minnesota is the eighth swing state and could

1683
01:48:15,920 --> 01:48:19,000
Speaker 1: elect an independent again. With Governor Wall seeking an unprecedented

1684
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:21,320
Speaker 1: third term and an open senencee in twenty twenty six,

1685
01:48:21,720 --> 01:48:24,759
Speaker 1: our politics could get lively. I agree. Yet national media

1686
01:48:24,760 --> 01:48:26,600
Speaker 1: still treats us like a solid blue state instead of

1687
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 1: a light blue I also agree, and it's wrong. It's

1688
01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 1: extraordinarily light blue. Why don't we get the same attention

1689
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:34,960
Speaker 1: as Wisconsin or Michigan ps. As a Twins fan, do

1690
01:48:35,000 --> 01:48:37,439
Speaker 1: you think the team struggles stem from ownership not investing

1691
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 1: enough or is it just the challenge of being a

1692
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:43,320
Speaker 1: small market club. Go Gophers, Go Vikings, Go Timberwolves. First

1693
01:48:43,320 --> 01:48:46,360
Speaker 1: of all, I admire that you're all in all things Minnesota.

1694
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:49,320
Speaker 1: You're not like some hybrid fan like me, who's a

1695
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:53,040
Speaker 1: pack grew up in Miami, is a Packer fan, childhood

1696
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:56,800
Speaker 1: Dodger fan, now lives in Washington. So you know, I'm

1697
01:48:56,920 --> 01:48:59,280
Speaker 1: very transient with mine. You know, I've got a few

1698
01:48:59,320 --> 01:49:02,479
Speaker 1: local connects since I love I I I do pull

1699
01:49:02,520 --> 01:49:07,439
Speaker 1: for the Miami Heat. I do. And it might be

1700
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:09,720
Speaker 1: a little bandwagony on the Miami Heat, I'll admit that.

1701
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:13,560
Speaker 1: But I love my Hurricane so that that's how I

1702
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:17,880
Speaker 1: keep my hometown up and there. I do love the

1703
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:20,760
Speaker 1: skull chant for what it's worth, Matt. I think it's

1704
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:23,679
Speaker 1: one of the cooler chants. And I one other fun

1705
01:49:23,680 --> 01:49:26,600
Speaker 1: little thing to throw at you. I heard these days gamblers,

1706
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:28,559
Speaker 1: a lot of the gambling sites have been noting that

1707
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:31,200
Speaker 1: home field advantage in the NFL. Really, there is no

1708
01:49:31,439 --> 01:49:35,080
Speaker 1: excess home field advantage really except in Minnesota. There is

1709
01:49:35,240 --> 01:49:37,080
Speaker 1: there is. It does seem like you guys have a

1710
01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 1: have a pretty good, uh pretty good home field advantage

1711
01:49:41,439 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 1: advantage out there. But as for your look, I think

1712
01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:53,280
Speaker 1: I think that And here's it goes to. You probably

1713
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:56,679
Speaker 1: heard the pushback from an old colleague of mine about

1714
01:49:57,000 --> 01:49:59,800
Speaker 1: my order of the swing states, where he said that

1715
01:49:59,880 --> 01:50:03,880
Speaker 1: he thinks New Hampshire is a better sort of swing

1716
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 1: state for Republicans to try to put in plane than Minnesota.

1717
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:10,000
Speaker 1: And you noted because Minnesota does feel as if there's

1718
01:50:10,080 --> 01:50:13,360
Speaker 1: a there's certainly a high floor for the Republicans, right

1719
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:17,439
Speaker 1: it Really it reminds me very much of of what

1720
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:20,639
Speaker 1: Georgia and North Carolina were for Democrats for a good

1721
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:24,160
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years. It was easy to get forty five,

1722
01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:27,920
Speaker 1: forty six or forty seven percent. It was really hard

1723
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:30,519
Speaker 1: to get the last two or three. Minnesota is that

1724
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:34,080
Speaker 1: way for Republicans, not hard to get to the to

1725
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:36,640
Speaker 1: the floor, to the forty five forty six, And in

1726
01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:39,640
Speaker 1: many ways it's a high floor, right And you're not

1727
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:42,120
Speaker 1: going to see unless you nominate a conspiracy theorist for

1728
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:47,719
Speaker 1: the US Senate like they did last time. But in general,

1729
01:50:48,439 --> 01:50:53,040
Speaker 1: it's a there's definitely a high floor there. But I

1730
01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:56,400
Speaker 1: do think the reputation of the Minnesota state party being

1731
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:58,880
Speaker 1: a bit more conservative than the state and I think

1732
01:50:58,960 --> 01:51:02,720
Speaker 1: that's always the nominating process. They've had a convention process.

1733
01:51:03,400 --> 01:51:05,880
Speaker 1: You know, it's not lost on me that the Republicans

1734
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:09,400
Speaker 1: that have succeeded in my lifetime in Minnesota have been

1735
01:51:09,439 --> 01:51:13,920
Speaker 1: people like Norm Coleman, Rudy Boschwitz, Arnie Carlson. These were all,

1736
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:18,599
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, all pro choice Republicans, actually very

1737
01:51:18,640 --> 01:51:22,479
Speaker 1: culturally moderate. I really just running as Republicans on the

1738
01:51:22,479 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 1: fiscal side of things on that front, so I'm leaving

1739
01:51:27,080 --> 01:51:29,400
Speaker 1: out I think Dave Dernberger I should meant the late

1740
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:32,840
Speaker 1: Dave Dernberger on that one. So I do think it's

1741
01:51:34,200 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 1: it's because Republicans haven't broken through in such a long time, right,

1742
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:45,000
Speaker 1: not since Coleman O two And that was that wacky

1743
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,320
Speaker 1: where well Stone dies Mondale's a replacement candidate. All happens

1744
01:51:50,320 --> 01:51:52,880
Speaker 1: within fifteen days of election day or something like that,

1745
01:51:53,400 --> 01:51:57,920
Speaker 1: and Coleman narrowly wins. You know, when you look at

1746
01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:00,280
Speaker 1: the history of Republicans of Minnesota, the fact that that's

1747
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:03,439
Speaker 1: the that's the loan essentially, the loan victory out there.

1748
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:07,640
Speaker 1: I think it tells you and you know, as my

1749
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:11,599
Speaker 1: old colleague pointed out, if Republicans couldn't come within ten

1750
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:14,920
Speaker 1: points of Al Frankett in twenty fourteen, a great year

1751
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:18,080
Speaker 1: nationally for Republicans, it does it is a reminder that

1752
01:52:18,120 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 1: there is a maybe a high floor, but boy is

1753
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:22,320
Speaker 1: it really hard for them to get that last three

1754
01:52:22,400 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 1: or four points. So I think that that ultimately, you know,

1755
01:52:25,360 --> 01:52:28,439
Speaker 1: I always put it on our initial battlegrounds whenever I've

1756
01:52:28,479 --> 01:52:31,080
Speaker 1: done our coverage, you know, I was basically helped lead

1757
01:52:31,160 --> 01:52:35,000
Speaker 1: coverage for politics for NBC for twenty nearly twenty years.

1758
01:52:35,439 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 1: I always had Minnesota as one of the states we

1759
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:39,519
Speaker 1: may be needing to send an embed to and all

1760
01:52:39,560 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 1: this stuff, and it would always be on the list,

1761
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:44,600
Speaker 1: and then by the by the fall, we ended up

1762
01:52:44,640 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 1: pulling it off because the campaigns themselves weren't engaging, you know,

1763
01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:50,559
Speaker 1: And ultimately it was you know, if if you know,

1764
01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:53,600
Speaker 1: we didn't decide not to cover a state because we

1765
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:55,720
Speaker 1: didn't think it was in play, it's when the campaigns

1766
01:52:55,760 --> 01:52:59,240
Speaker 1: themselves don't go. So it's not as if we didn't

1767
01:52:59,320 --> 01:53:03,080
Speaker 1: want to cover the state. It's the campaigns themselves stopped going,

1768
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 1: so you're gonna get let you know, it's self reinforcement. Right.

1769
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:10,880
Speaker 1: If they really wanted to put Minnesota on the map,

1770
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:13,719
Speaker 1: you know, Trump would have been there four or five times.

1771
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:15,680
Speaker 1: And then you get more reporters coming, and then the

1772
01:53:15,720 --> 01:53:18,559
Speaker 1: more they come, the more we come. So this is

1773
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:22,519
Speaker 1: where the this is where we're just the messagers. We

1774
01:53:22,640 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: really are. We're just the reporters. If you go, we

1775
01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:29,439
Speaker 1: will come. If you don't, we won't. It's as simple

1776
01:53:29,479 --> 01:53:33,360
Speaker 1: as that when it comes to campaign coverage. Look as

1777
01:53:33,360 --> 01:53:35,200
Speaker 1: for the Twins, I have a buddy of mine is

1778
01:53:35,240 --> 01:53:39,360
Speaker 1: a scout for your fair twins. I don't want to

1779
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:41,840
Speaker 1: violate as confidence on all these things. All I'll say is,

1780
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:46,559
Speaker 1: you guys got hit hard by this ballet diamond sports

1781
01:53:46,600 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 1: bankruptcy disaster when it comes to your TV rights. And

1782
01:53:51,479 --> 01:53:56,360
Speaker 1: it's just this is where baseball's economics are screwed up.

1783
01:53:57,120 --> 01:54:00,479
Speaker 1: They don't have a good revenue sharing plan, all right.

1784
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 1: And as much as I know that you know, I

1785
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:07,439
Speaker 1: fear a lockout is coming in twenty twenty seven and

1786
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:09,680
Speaker 1: we may lose. I think I shared with you that

1787
01:54:10,240 --> 01:54:14,720
Speaker 1: the person who is my account executive trying to get

1788
01:54:14,720 --> 01:54:17,519
Speaker 1: me to renew my season tickets with the Nationals. I said,

1789
01:54:17,520 --> 01:54:20,720
Speaker 1: what you know, you know, I was unhappy with how

1790
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:23,840
Speaker 1: the nation. You know that the front office won't won't

1791
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:25,960
Speaker 1: say definitively whether they actually are going to try to

1792
01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:28,360
Speaker 1: win next year or not. He said, you know, one

1793
01:54:28,360 --> 01:54:31,160
Speaker 1: of the things that he'd been hearing is that people

1794
01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:33,320
Speaker 1: want to get a little baseball, and in twenty twenty

1795
01:54:33,320 --> 01:54:35,160
Speaker 1: six was because we may not have baseball in twenty

1796
01:54:35,200 --> 01:54:40,080
Speaker 1: twenty seven. That's how dire this financial outlook. I think,

1797
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:42,760
Speaker 1: at least how Major League Baseball the owners were played.

1798
01:54:42,760 --> 01:54:47,560
Speaker 1: This could be a harsh one, but ultimately, you know,

1799
01:54:47,600 --> 01:54:51,680
Speaker 1: we've already heard Bryce Harper, you know, essentially tell Manfred

1800
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:56,040
Speaker 1: to pound infield dirt if you will when it came

1801
01:54:56,080 --> 01:54:58,800
Speaker 1: to a salary cap. But you're never going to get

1802
01:54:58,800 --> 01:55:00,480
Speaker 1: the players that are going to a salary cap unless

1803
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:02,560
Speaker 1: the Dodgers and the Yankees agree to share an equal

1804
01:55:02,560 --> 01:55:05,400
Speaker 1: amount of revenue with teams like the Twins. And if

1805
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:07,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't happen, I don't know how you're going to

1806
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 1: get the players to accept a salary cap. And until

1807
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:12,360
Speaker 1: you know, all the NFL owners the NBA owners and

1808
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:15,000
Speaker 1: the NHL owners have all determined that even though some

1809
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:17,840
Speaker 1: of them could make more money on their own, that

1810
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:22,000
Speaker 1: they make more money sharing that the lead everybody making

1811
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:25,320
Speaker 1: money allows everybody to make money, and it's healthier for

1812
01:55:25,360 --> 01:55:29,320
Speaker 1: the league. Baseball is not does not do its finances

1813
01:55:29,320 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 1: that way, and the Dodgers probably get more revenue from

1814
01:55:32,800 --> 01:55:36,760
Speaker 1: Japan than the Twins do collectively for their entire TV deal,

1815
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:43,000
Speaker 1: and that's unsustainable. How are the Twins supposed to stay competitive?

1816
01:55:43,040 --> 01:55:45,320
Speaker 1: The only thing that gives the Twins a chance is

1817
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:49,280
Speaker 1: the playoff format because it's baseball. And as long as

1818
01:55:49,320 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 1: you guys don't have to play the Yankees in the

1819
01:55:50,560 --> 01:55:53,960
Speaker 1: playoffs because I think you're over your last fifty You know,

1820
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:56,400
Speaker 1: you guys, You guys have done it right. You've hacked

1821
01:55:56,400 --> 01:56:00,800
Speaker 1: your way into a few times. It's been those pesky

1822
01:56:00,880 --> 01:56:03,200
Speaker 1: Yankees that seem to be this whatever you guys make

1823
01:56:03,240 --> 01:56:05,400
Speaker 1: the playoffs, that they screw you. But in all seriousness,

1824
01:56:05,760 --> 01:56:07,919
Speaker 1: the only thing that levels the playing field in baseball,

1825
01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:11,680
Speaker 1: it's not the finances. It's the five game series and

1826
01:56:11,720 --> 01:56:13,960
Speaker 1: that you could, essentially, with two great pitchers, steal a

1827
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:16,760
Speaker 1: five game series over a better team because your best

1828
01:56:16,760 --> 01:56:20,800
Speaker 1: pitchers can pitch four of the five games. So anyway,

1829
01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:26,960
Speaker 1: but I digress. Next question, Jim, Hey, Chuck, longtime fan here,

1830
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:29,040
Speaker 1: really appreciated your episode on social media and wanted to

1831
01:56:29,040 --> 01:56:30,800
Speaker 1: ask if you think we should draw a sharper line

1832
01:56:31,040 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 1: between genuine debate and train wreck television. For example, Ben

1833
01:56:33,920 --> 01:56:36,880
Speaker 1: Shapiro's conversation with Ezra Klein was an actual exchange of

1834
01:56:36,920 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 1: ideas well, clips of him destroying students on campus are

1835
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:43,240
Speaker 1: just algorithm driven reality TV that fuel caricatures and division.

1836
01:56:43,320 --> 01:56:46,680
Speaker 1: Shouldn't we stop treating these as the same thing? Yes, yes,

1837
01:56:46,760 --> 01:56:52,800
Speaker 1: and one hundred times yes right. There are sometimes crazy

1838
01:56:52,840 --> 01:56:57,960
Speaker 1: algorithm you know, the these debate moments that get used

1839
01:56:57,960 --> 01:57:02,080
Speaker 1: to say, hey, you know, I see it, like Scott

1840
01:57:02,200 --> 01:57:06,920
Speaker 1: Jennings owns, you know, near a tandeon on the CNN panel,

1841
01:57:07,080 --> 01:57:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, on whatever it is. And if you actually

1842
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,920
Speaker 1: watch the whole exchange, it's interesting back and forth. But

1843
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 1: if you just clip the part that fires up your

1844
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:17,680
Speaker 1: side of the aisle, you know that it you know,

1845
01:57:17,920 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 1: I know, and you're right. It totally destroys debate, makes

1846
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:27,680
Speaker 1: people think that there is no devil's advocate argument, counterintuitive argument,

1847
01:57:27,800 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 1: things like that, you know, but there's a part of

1848
01:57:32,680 --> 01:57:34,360
Speaker 1: me that thinks, Jim, you and I might be old

1849
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:37,400
Speaker 1: men yelling at cloud right about this, and that you know,

1850
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:44,240
Speaker 1: you know, the there's a whole bunch of people criticizing

1851
01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:48,600
Speaker 1: TV sound bites back in the eighties and nineties, right,

1852
01:57:48,640 --> 01:57:51,240
Speaker 1: and then when when CNN first started and we started

1853
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:56,040
Speaker 1: to get more clips of what people were saying, people

1854
01:57:56,080 --> 01:57:59,040
Speaker 1: were saying TV soundbites they shouldn't be replacing you know

1855
01:57:59,680 --> 01:58:03,000
Speaker 1: the law, you know, you don't really and so you know,

1856
01:58:03,040 --> 01:58:05,520
Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember when we criticized the TV SoundBite,

1857
01:58:05,520 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 1: and now we're we've taken the TV SoundBite and then

1858
01:58:08,400 --> 01:58:10,800
Speaker 1: amplified it and put it in an algorithm, and then

1859
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:14,640
Speaker 1: only and then and then only showed it to people

1860
01:58:14,680 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 1: that would really get fired up. So so I'm mindful

1861
01:58:19,200 --> 01:58:23,120
Speaker 1: that every new technology, some form of this debate pops up.

1862
01:58:23,800 --> 01:58:26,400
Speaker 1: You know, when we went from print to television news,

1863
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:28,000
Speaker 1: there was a lot of people that mocked the old

1864
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:31,080
Speaker 1: TV news never going to replace the newspaper. You don't

1865
01:58:31,120 --> 01:58:33,600
Speaker 1: get the full context of a news story watching it

1866
01:58:33,840 --> 01:58:35,880
Speaker 1: then you would reading the full article in the paper.

1867
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:39,000
Speaker 1: So but I guess the problem is we keep sort

1868
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:42,360
Speaker 1: of we go from a big, long magazine story to

1869
01:58:42,440 --> 01:58:45,200
Speaker 1: the newspaper was slightly shorter, right with the wire story

1870
01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:48,280
Speaker 1: even shorter, with the TV SoundBite even shorter, and then

1871
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:50,920
Speaker 1: of course with the tweet even shorter than that. You know,

1872
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:53,400
Speaker 1: and I think we've you know, have we have we

1873
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:55,960
Speaker 1: gotten to the efficiency to the point where it's doing

1874
01:58:56,080 --> 01:58:58,680
Speaker 1: us harm? And I think we all believe we've we've

1875
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 1: gotten to that. You know, I'm gonna really show my

1876
01:59:04,400 --> 01:59:07,160
Speaker 1: age here, but there was a time where Ted Kennedy

1877
01:59:07,160 --> 01:59:09,720
Speaker 1: and Orange Hatch used to do I think monthly debates

1878
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:14,760
Speaker 1: on PBS for a time. I think the original firing

1879
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:19,000
Speaker 1: line was some form of that. You know, there's a

1880
01:59:19,040 --> 01:59:23,120
Speaker 1: famous special. There's a great famous television debate you can

1881
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:25,320
Speaker 1: go find on YouTube between Robert F. Kennedy and Ronald

1882
01:59:25,360 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 1: Reagan back I think it was in the in the

1883
01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:30,120
Speaker 1: in the late sixties. There was a great you know,

1884
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 1: CBS television special back in sixty seven where Ronald Reagan

1885
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: and Robert F. Kennedy took questions from from youth of

1886
01:59:40,800 --> 01:59:46,160
Speaker 1: the world on that front. And it was an interesting debate. So,

1887
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:50,560
Speaker 1: you know, the early days of television, we did debate

1888
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 1: really well, right, and then of course we've we've it

1889
01:59:54,160 --> 02:00:01,400
Speaker 1: keeps becoming a derivative, a derivative, a derivative, so you yes,

1890
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:07,360
Speaker 1: I totally agree. It's the clips and and of course

1891
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:11,080
Speaker 1: it's it's how the business works. Right. I put out

1892
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:15,320
Speaker 1: clips on my socials in order to hopefully I'm trying

1893
02:00:15,320 --> 02:00:17,000
Speaker 1: to use it as a way to say, hey, it's

1894
02:00:17,040 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 1: a brochure. Did you like that clip? I've got more

1895
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:24,680
Speaker 1: context here, But it's how it's on. This is the

1896
02:00:24,720 --> 02:00:28,240
Speaker 1: incentive structure in building an audience. And this gets back.

1897
02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:30,800
Speaker 1: I think I keep hitting on a theme. Right, tell

1898
02:00:30,800 --> 02:00:34,080
Speaker 1: me your incentives and I'll tell your outcomes. I think

1899
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 1: we're starting to learn that, all right, next question, I'll

1900
02:00:37,720 --> 02:00:39,480
Speaker 1: last one here and then I'll sneak in a litle

1901
02:00:39,480 --> 02:00:44,200
Speaker 1: college football preview. This one comes from James, who signs

1902
02:00:44,240 --> 02:00:47,560
Speaker 1: off with a go bills. Is there any real benefits

1903
02:00:47,600 --> 02:00:49,880
Speaker 1: political parties beyond giving people with money a way to

1904
02:00:49,880 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 1: push their agenda? Could we ever ban parties all together?

1905
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 1: And everyday life works sports everyone pulls toward one goal,

1906
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:57,800
Speaker 1: but politics feels like a football team split in two,

1907
02:00:58,120 --> 02:01:00,240
Speaker 1: each side refusing to help the other. I want to

1908
02:01:00,280 --> 02:01:03,840
Speaker 1: be better to have everyday, moderates running the country instead

1909
02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:08,160
Speaker 1: of partisans who put party over country. Yeah, I mean

1910
02:01:08,200 --> 02:01:09,640
Speaker 1: that's the world you and I want to live in.

1911
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:14,440
Speaker 1: I just think that we're in the minority on that.

1912
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:19,160
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. I even I want checks. I want,

1913
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, I want different ideologies, sort of testing each

1914
02:01:24,000 --> 02:01:28,120
Speaker 1: other's ideas, because it may be you have the better ideas,

1915
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:32,840
Speaker 1: but your skepticism can bring some more transparency to the

1916
02:01:32,880 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 1: idea and how we implement it. So I wouldn't want,

1917
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,640
Speaker 1: you know, this is why I like our arrangement. I'd

1918
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,800
Speaker 1: like a Senate, a judiciary filled with moderates. I think

1919
02:01:42,880 --> 02:01:45,440
Speaker 1: the judiciary should be center right and center leftmont they

1920
02:01:45,440 --> 02:01:48,200
Speaker 1: should all be you know, you'd need seventy five votes

1921
02:01:48,200 --> 02:01:52,000
Speaker 1: in the Senate to become a federal judge on any level. Okay,

1922
02:01:52,040 --> 02:01:54,520
Speaker 1: so I would start there. I want all the people

1923
02:01:54,560 --> 02:01:59,760
Speaker 1: interpreting the legality and the constitutionality of laws to be that.

1924
02:02:00,680 --> 02:02:03,400
Speaker 1: But I do want my House and Senate filled with

1925
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:09,160
Speaker 1: folks from the entire you know, across the spectrum, because

1926
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:11,240
Speaker 1: I want the very you know, because they're going to

1927
02:02:11,280 --> 02:02:13,920
Speaker 1: be things I'm not thinking about that will be helpful

1928
02:02:13,960 --> 02:02:17,000
Speaker 1: to you know. I want some civil libertarians in there

1929
02:02:17,040 --> 02:02:20,200
Speaker 1: that maybe are too you know, so obsessed with with

1930
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:22,400
Speaker 1: it that it you know, maybe it goes too far

1931
02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:25,160
Speaker 1: with some of these with with some of Rand Paul's ideas,

1932
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:28,120
Speaker 1: but I want his ideology and they're helping to question

1933
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:30,720
Speaker 1: some of that implementation. I want AOC in there. I

1934
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:33,360
Speaker 1: want Bertie sand You see where I'm going, right you So,

1935
02:02:33,440 --> 02:02:35,400
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think you'd want a world where

1936
02:02:35,560 --> 02:02:39,680
Speaker 1: they didn't have a voice at all on that. But

1937
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:42,640
Speaker 1: as for political parties, you know, I think what you're

1938
02:02:43,360 --> 02:02:48,040
Speaker 1: the two parties themselves are just money laundering machines. All

1939
02:02:48,080 --> 02:02:52,280
Speaker 1: they are is vehicles to move money into other places. Okay,

1940
02:02:52,360 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: both of them. That's that's essentially the function of the

1941
02:02:55,560 --> 02:02:58,200
Speaker 1: state parties and the function of the of the national parties.

1942
02:02:58,960 --> 02:03:01,440
Speaker 1: But if we had a if if you wanted sort

1943
02:03:01,480 --> 02:03:05,280
Speaker 1: of a more ideologically diverse which we really are, right,

1944
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 1: we're more diverse than two parties, you know, And you know,

1945
02:03:08,640 --> 02:03:10,400
Speaker 1: if I were king for a day, i'd have four

1946
02:03:10,440 --> 02:03:15,040
Speaker 1: major parties. And I do think that. You know, basically,

1947
02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:21,800
Speaker 1: there are four sizes of basic of your basic T shirt, right, small, medium, large,

1948
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:25,240
Speaker 1: and extra large. Right, Yes, we have double X and

1949
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:27,360
Speaker 1: you have you know, some mediums and all this Stuff'm

1950
02:03:27,400 --> 02:03:30,000
Speaker 1: not saying there aren't little sub things, right, but you know,

1951
02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:35,360
Speaker 1: four sizes would basically, you know, everybody could find a

1952
02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:38,400
Speaker 1: size that's fit enough. Well, four parties would do the

1953
02:03:38,440 --> 02:03:40,880
Speaker 1: same thing. Two is not enough, right, Small and large

1954
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't cut it right, but adding in medium and extra

1955
02:03:45,000 --> 02:03:48,600
Speaker 1: large and you feel like you're able to essentially cover

1956
02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:51,800
Speaker 1: eighty percent of the country. And I think four parties

1957
02:03:51,800 --> 02:03:54,160
Speaker 1: would do that, and then they'd be I'd do Then

1958
02:03:54,280 --> 02:03:59,960
Speaker 1: you'd get you'd actually get platforms that might be substantive

1959
02:04:00,160 --> 02:04:02,680
Speaker 1: if you had four parties, and the parties might fight

1960
02:04:02,800 --> 02:04:05,160
Speaker 1: more for their agenda, and then they would see which

1961
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:07,480
Speaker 1: side they want to have a coalition with, depending on

1962
02:04:07,520 --> 02:04:09,920
Speaker 1: which issue is a priority for them. If you're in

1963
02:04:09,960 --> 02:04:12,720
Speaker 1: the Progressive Party, it may be that the nationalists agree

1964
02:04:12,760 --> 02:04:14,920
Speaker 1: with you on something when it comes to regulating big tech,

1965
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:17,360
Speaker 1: and maybe you guys would forge a coalition government to

1966
02:04:17,480 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 1: just focus on that for a two year stent. So,

1967
02:04:21,000 --> 02:04:23,680
Speaker 1: I certainly I take your point, but I think the

1968
02:04:23,720 --> 02:04:29,400
Speaker 1: reason why our two political parties have become money laundry

1969
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:34,880
Speaker 1: vehicles to just execute political campaigns is because they don't

1970
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:38,040
Speaker 1: stand for anything because both parties are they're almost too

1971
02:04:38,040 --> 02:04:41,600
Speaker 1: big to stand for anything. I mean, look the republic

1972
02:04:41,640 --> 02:04:44,640
Speaker 1: the Democrats are debating whether they should be socialists or capitalists,

1973
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 1: right the Republicans are having arguably a huge debate of

1974
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:53,080
Speaker 1: whether it should be internationalists or protectionists. Right, free traders

1975
02:04:53,120 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 1: or protectionists. You know, these are some black and white

1976
02:04:55,160 --> 02:04:58,840
Speaker 1: issues when we don't so they're too big to stand

1977
02:04:58,840 --> 02:05:02,640
Speaker 1: for anything. So then the only way you can prove

1978
02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 1: your effectiveness is just be a place to to move

1979
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:15,400
Speaker 1: money for campaigns. So anyway, I totally fair question and

1980
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:20,320
Speaker 1: an understandable critique on that front. Obviously, our friend George

1981
02:05:20,360 --> 02:05:23,320
Speaker 1: Washington didn't think there should be any political parties on

1982
02:05:23,320 --> 02:05:25,720
Speaker 1: that front. All right, let me do my little college

1983
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:28,880
Speaker 1: football preview of how I'm watching the weekend. Again, this

1984
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:33,160
Speaker 1: is not me doing any gambling selections, but hey, you know,

1985
02:05:33,400 --> 02:05:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm running a business here and so who knows, maybe

1986
02:05:36,320 --> 02:05:38,640
Speaker 1: it will turn into that. So the games on my

1987
02:05:39,000 --> 02:05:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, this is on paper, this is not the

1988
02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, this isn't like opening weekend or even last weekend,

1989
02:05:46,280 --> 02:05:48,520
Speaker 1: where we knew we had a couple of big games

1990
02:05:48,520 --> 02:05:53,240
Speaker 1: that were going to be of interest, particularly Georgia Tennessee.

1991
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:56,760
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm very thankful for the rain, for

1992
02:05:56,840 --> 02:05:59,120
Speaker 1: the rain delay, the lightning delay, and the Miami South

1993
02:05:59,120 --> 02:06:01,640
Speaker 1: Florida game because because it allowed me to watch just

1994
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:05,120
Speaker 1: about all of that Georgia Tennessee game, which was just entertaining. Man,

1995
02:06:05,560 --> 02:06:09,040
Speaker 1: you just you know, I normally would have said, you

1996
02:06:09,120 --> 02:06:11,520
Speaker 1: never see that in the NFL. But the Giants Cowboys

1997
02:06:11,560 --> 02:06:13,600
Speaker 1: game last week felt like a college football game, didn't

1998
02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 1: it the way they were going back and forth. But

1999
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:19,680
Speaker 1: that was that was a lot of fun. This week,

2000
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:23,240
Speaker 1: I am going to be attending a game in person.

2001
02:06:23,640 --> 02:06:28,400
Speaker 1: So it is just so you know, as a Hurricane fan,

2002
02:06:29,200 --> 02:06:33,760
Speaker 1: the Gator rivalry, it's I will fully confess that we

2003
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:36,040
Speaker 1: hate the Gators more than the Gators hate Miami. The

2004
02:06:36,080 --> 02:06:39,240
Speaker 1: Gators don't care about the Hurricanes. Steve Spurrier dropped. We

2005
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:42,880
Speaker 1: used to play every year, and Steve Spurrier dropped it

2006
02:06:42,920 --> 02:06:45,280
Speaker 1: as soon as you know, because he complained that the

2007
02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:48,760
Speaker 1: I see, you know, it was the state legislature mandates

2008
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:51,440
Speaker 1: that Florida and Florida State have to play, but Miami's

2009
02:06:51,440 --> 02:06:53,160
Speaker 1: a private school, so he didn't have to do that.

2010
02:06:53,200 --> 02:06:55,680
Speaker 1: Florida State and Miami play every year now they're in conference,

2011
02:06:55,680 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 1: but even before that, they did because Florida State needed opponents.

2012
02:07:00,120 --> 02:07:02,240
Speaker 1: When they used to be at an all girls school

2013
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:05,160
Speaker 1: before they became Florida State, they were a teacher college

2014
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:07,480
Speaker 1: back in the back in the day. And then when

2015
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:11,840
Speaker 1: they transitioned to being co ed started a football team,

2016
02:07:12,040 --> 02:07:14,200
Speaker 1: they needed a team to play and Miami was always there.

2017
02:07:14,480 --> 02:07:17,800
Speaker 1: So you know, there's there's almost like a sibling Miami

2018
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:22,320
Speaker 1: and Florida State are are brothers, siblings, brothers and sisters.

2019
02:07:23,440 --> 02:07:27,120
Speaker 1: It's a sibling rivalry. Some of the fans may take

2020
02:07:27,160 --> 02:07:30,640
Speaker 1: it too far in hatred, but it's sibling. It ain't

2021
02:07:30,640 --> 02:07:33,200
Speaker 1: a sibling rivalry at the Gators, right, And there's a

2022
02:07:33,200 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of old bad just bad blood.

2023
02:07:40,360 --> 02:07:42,960
Speaker 1: There's a there's a famous story that my dad passed

2024
02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:46,680
Speaker 1: on to me called the Gator Flop, and I think

2025
02:07:46,680 --> 02:07:49,400
Speaker 1: it had to do with a quarterback. I don't think

2026
02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:51,440
Speaker 1: it was Spurriy or I think it was another quarterback,

2027
02:07:51,480 --> 02:07:54,960
Speaker 1: but it was before I was born.

2028
02:07:54,440 --> 02:07:54,600
Speaker 2: And.

2029
02:07:56,840 --> 02:08:03,400
Speaker 1: They wanted to set some record, set some all time

2030
02:08:03,480 --> 02:08:06,440
Speaker 1: passing record at the time, but Florida needed to get

2031
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:09,280
Speaker 1: the ball back, so they let Miami score a touchdown,

2032
02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:12,680
Speaker 1: and it was just sort of a humiliating way. And

2033
02:08:13,640 --> 02:08:16,000
Speaker 1: so when when when Miami got good in the late

2034
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:22,879
Speaker 1: seventies early eighties, Howich Snellenberger decided to use that story

2035
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:26,480
Speaker 1: the Gator flop, and it became known as the Gator flop,

2036
02:08:26,520 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 1: I think a sports writer, you know, in order so

2037
02:08:28,840 --> 02:08:30,440
Speaker 1: that the Gators could quickly get the ball back so

2038
02:08:30,480 --> 02:08:33,080
Speaker 1: they could throw some five yard pass, so their quarterback

2039
02:08:33,080 --> 02:08:35,000
Speaker 1: could break the all time record, which of course probably

2040
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: stood for a day or a year or a season

2041
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:41,800
Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, so that you know, that became lower

2042
02:08:42,040 --> 02:08:46,040
Speaker 1: for Miami, and we Miami owned the Gators in the

2043
02:08:46,560 --> 02:08:51,240
Speaker 1: from about seventy nine, really since like the Gators have,

2044
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:53,320
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's part of the problem.

2045
02:08:53,320 --> 02:08:55,760
Speaker 1: Why did Spurrier really stop wanting to play Miami Because

2046
02:08:55,760 --> 02:08:58,880
Speaker 1: they were always losing to Miami for one reason. In fact,

2047
02:08:58,920 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 1: one of the few times they beat Miami in my

2048
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:05,720
Speaker 1: memory was the the was nineteen eighty three, which happened

2049
02:09:05,760 --> 02:09:07,840
Speaker 1: to be the first time Miami won the national title.

2050
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:09,880
Speaker 1: Miami lost the opening game of the year. We had

2051
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:12,720
Speaker 1: to play in Gainesville. They kicked our ass twenty eight

2052
02:09:12,760 --> 02:09:18,280
Speaker 1: to three. We had this true freshman quarterback playing. No,

2053
02:09:18,320 --> 02:09:19,440
Speaker 1: it was a red shirt excuse me, it was a

2054
02:09:19,440 --> 02:09:24,120
Speaker 1: red shirt freshman quarterback. His name was Bernie Cosar, and

2055
02:09:24,160 --> 02:09:26,760
Speaker 1: he actually had a pretty good game. It just we

2056
02:09:26,840 --> 02:09:30,840
Speaker 1: hadn't quite clicked yet with the receivers, right, Eddie Brown

2057
02:09:30,960 --> 02:09:35,480
Speaker 1: was one of those receivers. If you're really wondering who

2058
02:09:35,480 --> 02:09:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm talking about here. And Miami doesn't lose another game, right,

2059
02:09:40,200 --> 02:09:42,160
Speaker 1: they end up going eleven to one beat Nebraska and

2060
02:09:42,200 --> 02:09:44,960
Speaker 1: then famous thirty one to thirty game and the rest

2061
02:09:45,000 --> 02:09:48,560
Speaker 1: is history in the Miami program is born if you will.

2062
02:09:49,080 --> 02:09:52,720
Speaker 1: That season and I remember Gators fan made t shirts

2063
02:09:52,720 --> 02:09:55,720
Speaker 1: to say, you know that they were you know, they

2064
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:57,600
Speaker 1: beat the national champs, you know, and it was the

2065
02:09:57,640 --> 02:09:59,440
Speaker 1: next year they were going to beat us, and we

2066
02:09:59,560 --> 02:10:02,400
Speaker 1: beat them in Tampa. We played them in a special

2067
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:05,520
Speaker 1: in Tampa. Miami played it was preseason rae. They played

2068
02:10:05,520 --> 02:10:10,200
Speaker 1: to play Florida. They played at Auburn in the first

2069
02:10:10,200 --> 02:10:14,560
Speaker 1: ever Kickoff Classic against Bo Jackson. Auburn always felt screwed

2070
02:10:14,600 --> 02:10:17,320
Speaker 1: out of the national title game in eighty three, so

2071
02:10:17,720 --> 02:10:21,560
Speaker 1: they matched up Miami and Auburn. Miami beats them. Trust me,

2072
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:23,680
Speaker 1: I know my brother in law is listening. Is still

2073
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:26,480
Speaker 1: he's still he's an Auburn fan. He's still mad about

2074
02:10:26,480 --> 02:10:29,080
Speaker 1: that nineteen eighty three season, believes at Auburn, which won

2075
02:10:29,120 --> 02:10:31,400
Speaker 1: the Sugar Bowl that night when Miami beat Nebraska in

2076
02:10:31,440 --> 02:10:34,280
Speaker 1: the Orange Bowl, but they beat an unimpressive Michigan team.

2077
02:10:34,320 --> 02:10:36,240
Speaker 1: Miami beat the number one team in the country. We

2078
02:10:36,240 --> 02:10:39,160
Speaker 1: were both eleven and one, and then we beat them

2079
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:42,680
Speaker 1: the next year, not by much, but we beat them.

2080
02:10:42,920 --> 02:10:44,760
Speaker 1: Then we five days later have to play Florida, and

2081
02:10:44,760 --> 02:10:45,920
Speaker 1: then a week later we have to go up to

2082
02:10:45,960 --> 02:10:48,680
Speaker 1: Michigan in the Big House, and we'd lose. And anyway,

2083
02:10:49,000 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 1: that same season, that was crazy. Season eighty four is

2084
02:10:51,320 --> 02:10:54,040
Speaker 1: the season of the Doug Fluty Hill Mary and all

2085
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:58,360
Speaker 1: this other nonsense. But my point is is that we

2086
02:10:58,480 --> 02:11:00,960
Speaker 1: Miami fans hate the Gators more than the Gators hate us.

2087
02:11:01,280 --> 02:11:05,000
Speaker 1: We know this, we get it. Florida cares probably more

2088
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:07,120
Speaker 1: about beating Georgia. I think they care more about beating

2089
02:11:07,120 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 1: Georgia than they do even Florida State anymore. But it'll

2090
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:13,800
Speaker 1: really sting if we don't win this game, that I'll admit.

2091
02:11:13,880 --> 02:11:15,440
Speaker 1: And it's nice to see that game day's coming to

2092
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:19,000
Speaker 1: corel Gables for this again. Maybe they'll say I'm trying

2093
02:11:19,040 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 1: to I wonder the last time ESPN decided to feature

2094
02:11:23,800 --> 02:11:25,640
Speaker 1: a game for Game Day where one of the two

2095
02:11:25,680 --> 02:11:34,720
Speaker 1: teams had a losing record. Anyway, I I'm weirdly confident

2096
02:11:34,720 --> 02:11:36,200
Speaker 1: about this Miami team, but I don't want to get

2097
02:11:36,200 --> 02:11:41,160
Speaker 1: over confident. But I do love how tough they are

2098
02:11:41,560 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 1: on the offensive line and defensive line, and that is

2099
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:46,840
Speaker 1: what keeps them. I think why they see the other

2100
02:11:46,920 --> 02:11:49,480
Speaker 1: games that matter that I'm watching this week that I

2101
02:11:49,480 --> 02:11:51,240
Speaker 1: think are going to be fun and you should check out.

2102
02:11:51,520 --> 02:11:54,560
Speaker 1: I'm learning about the Iron Skillet game. This is SMU

2103
02:11:54,680 --> 02:12:00,320
Speaker 1: TCU Dallas versus Fort Worth. Obviously, I've got I've got

2104
02:12:00,320 --> 02:12:03,560
Speaker 1: tuition dollars going to SMU. They're on the road. They

2105
02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:06,520
Speaker 1: got to go to Fort Worth to play there. TCU's

2106
02:12:06,560 --> 02:12:10,400
Speaker 1: favored Last year, SMU pasted them. Let's just say I

2107
02:12:10,400 --> 02:12:13,280
Speaker 1: think a lot of you fans are nervous about this game.

2108
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:17,640
Speaker 1: TCU looked really good against Bill Belichick's UNC. We're going

2109
02:12:17,720 --> 02:12:21,280
Speaker 1: to find out if they're any good. I do think

2110
02:12:21,280 --> 02:12:23,240
Speaker 1: this game will tell us a lot about both teams,

2111
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:26,960
Speaker 1: so definitely might be sneaky. One of the games of

2112
02:12:26,960 --> 02:12:30,000
Speaker 1: the day, The most underrated game of the day is

2113
02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:33,920
Speaker 1: probably Illinois Indiana. I'd love for any of my friends

2114
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:36,480
Speaker 1: in Illinois or Indiana to tell me the last time

2115
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:39,000
Speaker 1: Illinois and Indiana played a football game where they were

2116
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:44,920
Speaker 1: both ranked. And this one, I think winners in the

2117
02:12:44,920 --> 02:12:49,080
Speaker 1: catbird seat to get the fourth playoff spot out of

2118
02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:52,240
Speaker 1: the big ten. I'm assuming the Big ten gets four,

2119
02:12:52,520 --> 02:12:56,080
Speaker 1: SEC gets four, ACC gets two, and then you'll have

2120
02:12:56,120 --> 02:13:00,440
Speaker 1: one Big twelve and one. That's my guess, and so

2121
02:13:00,520 --> 02:13:04,440
Speaker 1: i think winner of Illinois Indiana probably in the driver's

2122
02:13:04,480 --> 02:13:08,080
Speaker 1: seat for that last spot, unless USC is as good

2123
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:11,360
Speaker 1: as they've looked so far. Auburn Oklahoma is another one.

2124
02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:14,080
Speaker 1: This is another one that's going to matter. Is owe

2125
02:13:14,080 --> 02:13:17,600
Speaker 1: you the fourth SEC team? Could they be the fourth

2126
02:13:17,680 --> 02:13:22,040
Speaker 1: SEC team? What about Auburn on that front? Are they?

2127
02:13:22,320 --> 02:13:25,320
Speaker 1: You know? And that's of course You've got Jackson Arnold

2128
02:13:25,440 --> 02:13:28,120
Speaker 1: returning to Oklahoma. So there's a fun little storyline there.

2129
02:13:28,160 --> 02:13:30,200
Speaker 1: That's going to be a fun game. And I'm very

2130
02:13:30,240 --> 02:13:32,440
Speaker 1: curious of the Michigan Nebraska game. I think this is

2131
02:13:32,480 --> 02:13:35,960
Speaker 1: an extraordinarily important game. Look, if Michigan has any hope

2132
02:13:36,080 --> 02:13:39,080
Speaker 1: of sneaking into the playoff. They got to win this game,

2133
02:13:39,160 --> 02:13:43,320
Speaker 1: right losing they're out after losing that Oklahoma game. But

2134
02:13:43,360 --> 02:13:47,240
Speaker 1: Nebraska's fascinating here. If they're I don't think they're quite

2135
02:13:47,240 --> 02:13:49,680
Speaker 1: a playoff team. But they win this game and there

2136
02:13:49,720 --> 02:13:52,080
Speaker 1: suddenly this could feel like what sort of what Illinois

2137
02:13:52,200 --> 02:13:54,600
Speaker 1: was last year, where they were they took a step,

2138
02:13:54,640 --> 02:13:56,120
Speaker 1: they had a winning record. I think there were nine

2139
02:13:56,160 --> 02:14:00,480
Speaker 1: to three. If Nebraska's finally, if Matt rules going to work,

2140
02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:03,400
Speaker 1: this is the game we find out that Matt Rule's

2141
02:14:03,400 --> 02:14:08,320
Speaker 1: gonna work. I got a lot of Husker friends. They're

2142
02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:11,040
Speaker 1: a fun fan base, so it would be great to

2143
02:14:11,040 --> 02:14:14,600
Speaker 1: see Nebraska relevant again. I'd like to see this happen.

2144
02:14:14,640 --> 02:14:18,240
Speaker 1: And then it's also worth noting that the old Pac

2145
02:14:18,320 --> 02:14:21,560
Speaker 1: twelve rivalries of Oregon Oregon State and Washington Washington State

2146
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:23,720
Speaker 1: are both this weekend. So you've got the Civil War

2147
02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 1: in Oregon and the Apple Cup in September. You know,

2148
02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:33,880
Speaker 1: screw you college football for screwing up all these rivalries

2149
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:36,760
Speaker 1: and all these fun things. This was a great rivalry

2150
02:14:36,800 --> 02:14:40,120
Speaker 1: when these would be in October and November, I don't know,

2151
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:42,720
Speaker 1: you know, I certainly hope one of them is cold

2152
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:44,360
Speaker 1: and rainy, but I don't think it's cold and rainy

2153
02:14:44,440 --> 02:14:46,960
Speaker 1: right now. And that's what you expect in Oregon, Oregon State, Washington,

2154
02:14:47,040 --> 02:14:51,480
Speaker 1: Washington State. So look, those are the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

2155
02:14:51,720 --> 02:14:53,720
Speaker 1: Those to me are the seven most interesting games on

2156
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,080
Speaker 1: the board. There are other really interesting games if you're

2157
02:14:57,080 --> 02:15:00,320
Speaker 1: a gambler, but again, you guys go other places for that.

2158
02:15:00,960 --> 02:15:03,000
Speaker 1: You don't come here for the gambling advice. You come

2159
02:15:03,040 --> 02:15:07,400
Speaker 1: here for the college football enjoyment advice, right, So with that,

2160
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:13,600
Speaker 1: enjoy your college football weekend, enjoy your NFL weekend, and

2161
02:15:13,640 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 1: I'll see you in about seventy two hours.