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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist.

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Speaker 2: We're returning to you with a classic episode that some

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Speaker 2: people will argue is surprisingly relevant even five years after

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Speaker 2: we recorded it.

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Speaker 1: It's right, the course of democracy did not always run

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Speaker 1: straight nor smooth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, one thing is for sure, since democracy

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Speaker 2: became a thing, no matter who wins an election, any party,

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Speaker 2: any country, anytime history, some part of the population will say,

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Speaker 2: hold on.

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Speaker 1: I go on a tick.

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Speaker 2: This game is rigged in different accents.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely in different languages.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: In this case, we're going to Mexico. We're going to

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight, to a time when all of those

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Speaker 3: rumors were swirling around intensely so and then a little

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Speaker 3: weird thing happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, and if I'm not mistaken, guys, we were talking

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Speaker 1: off Mike. We released this at the time as sort

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Speaker 1: of a teachable moment analogous to what was going on

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Speaker 1: with a lot of accusations here in the States of

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Speaker 1: rigged elections and election tampering and interference. And to your point, Matt,

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Speaker 1: we're in the thick of that, if not worse than

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 3: Back then, and so shall we always be from this

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Speaker 3: point forward.

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Speaker 2: Which seems so let's get into it, from UFOs to

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Speaker 2: psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.

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Speaker 2: You can turn back now or learn this stuff they

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Speaker 2: don't want you to know. A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 3: my name is Noah.

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Speaker 2: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 2: our super producer, Paul Mission Control decads. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 2: are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 2: they don't want you to know. We live an interest times, gentlemen,

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Speaker 2: and it's time that we talk about Elections. Seems basic stuff, right,

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Speaker 2: but they're a big, big deal, even when they are

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Speaker 2: not perfect. Every year, billions upon billions of dollars go

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Speaker 2: into securing votes, spreading one message, attacking another, ultimately with

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Speaker 2: the aim of getting quote unquote your candidate in office.

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Speaker 2: In some countries, like in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea,

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Speaker 2: elections are more or less rubber stamp. They're a formality.

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Speaker 2: In other countries, like the US, they are hotly contested.

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Speaker 2: They are an industry as much as a political process.

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Speaker 2: And here in the States it is virtually a guarantee that,

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Speaker 2: no matter who wins the presidential election, some part of

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Speaker 2: the population is going to say that it was rigged.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's crazy if you look back over the decades.

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Speaker 2: For a long time, for many years, voters seem to

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Speaker 2: kind of trust the official results, the political system. But

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Speaker 2: over the recent decades, more and more people are more

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Speaker 2: and more concerned about the legitimacy of this process. And

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Speaker 2: part of that is due to the increased availability of information.

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Speaker 2: Part of it is due to the spread of new technologies.

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Speaker 2: The best way to look at it or describe it

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Speaker 2: as this, and it's something I think we explored a

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Speaker 2: past episode. It is not that there are more skeletons

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Speaker 2: in democracy's closet. It's just now we're able to turn

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Speaker 2: on more lights to search for them. So as we

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Speaker 2: and all of us listening here in the US approach

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Speaker 2: the presidential elections in November, we were inspired by this

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Speaker 2: anonymous voicemail to dig into the story of elections gone wrong.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps it will be a cautionary tale.

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Speaker 1: So few Marco's Mexico and research.

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Speaker 2: I found out that the nineteen eighties Mexican relations was

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Speaker 2: ratted by both parties, and according to what I saw,

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Speaker 2: it was the good of the nation there.

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Speaker 1: That's what they said, and I was wondering, that's something

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Speaker 1: that is set a president In the next question you,

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Speaker 1: I think you had maybe not to stilic into that. Thanks.

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Speaker 3: Oh. Yes, the concept that someone somewhere, specifically in Mexico

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Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty eight rigged a democratic presidential.

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Speaker 1: Election for the good of the nation.

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Speaker 3: Well, you were talking about democracy here, right, The concept

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Speaker 3: that each of us, you, me, everybody, we know that

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Speaker 3: we living as citizens of a country can make or

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Speaker 3: could make the best decision for that country about who

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Speaker 3: should lead it. Right, that's the uh painted lines on

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Speaker 3: the road faith thing that we're kind of going into

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Speaker 3: with this one, right, Ben.

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Speaker 2: Yep, So why should you care about some thing that

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Speaker 2: happened decades ago in Mexico? Here are the facts. Presidential

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Speaker 2: elections in Mexico bear a lot of similarities to elections

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Speaker 2: in the US, but there are several noticeable differences. Maybe

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Speaker 2: we can start with the similarities. I'll throw one out there.

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Speaker 2: Mexico has a president.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that definitely is the first one. Both countries

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Speaker 1: have huge public campaigns, media blitzes, personal appearances, debates, opinion polls,

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Speaker 1: and talking heads all over the news covering the election.

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Speaker 1: It's a very very similar experience to what we see

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Speaker 1: here during an election cycle. Not a great show, but

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Speaker 1: I did. It was the first time I really saw

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Speaker 1: what this looks like. The show Weeds, there's a character

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Speaker 1: that becomes the that is the president of Mexico, and

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Speaker 1: you kind of see a lot of the pomp and

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Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding that political process in one of the later

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Speaker 1: seasons of that show that was pretty maligned, but it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the first times I was aware, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is how it works there. It's very similar to

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Speaker 1: how it is here. And as the caller mentioned, that's

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Speaker 1: also something that you see a bit of in Narcos.

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Speaker 1: Is a superior show.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and when you know, when you're thinking about casting

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Speaker 3: your vote, if you are eighteen years or older, you've

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Speaker 3: likely done this. Before you go to your designated polling place,

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Speaker 3: you cast your ballot, either on paper or electronically, and

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Speaker 3: it is in all likelihood we know that in nineteen

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Speaker 3: eighty eight in Mexico, the ballots were done by hand.

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Speaker 3: It was a paper ballot, and you know that there's

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Speaker 3: something to that having a physical paper thing that then

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Speaker 3: gets counted and then your wherever you live, your local area,

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Speaker 3: all those votes get counted up, and then all of

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Speaker 3: those votes from all the different local areas get counted up,

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Speaker 3: and that's how you win an election or lose one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, so if you were voting in Mexico on election

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Speaker 2: day and you were voting in the US on election day,

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Speaker 2: odds are you would have kind of a similar experience, right,

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Speaker 2: especially in as you said, Matt, the days of paper

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Speaker 2: voting back when hanging chads meant something other than you know,

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Speaker 2: people at Abercrombie and Fitch. But there are significant differences,

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Speaker 2: and they make a big difference here. In some ways

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Speaker 2: you could argue these are changes that the US could

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Speaker 2: should consider. First, Mexico system is younger. The president's powers

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Speaker 2: of office come from the Revolutionary Constitution of nineteen seventeen.

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Speaker 2: So the first quote unquote modern Mexican president comes to

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Speaker 2: us in nineteen seventeen. And it's a very very big difference.

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Speaker 2: Unlike a president in the United States, a president in

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Speaker 2: Mexico cannot be re elected. They cannot be elected twice.

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Speaker 2: You get the one shot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's a longer. You know, we have

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Speaker 1: a four year term for a US president. And then

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Speaker 1: of course there's so much that goes into the idea

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Speaker 1: of being re elected, and I think, you know, many

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Speaker 1: folks who criticize the system would argue that that reelection

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Speaker 1: bid largely shapes the policies and the optics of that

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Speaker 1: term and what was accomplished or not accomplished or goals,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. So I don't know, I like this idea

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Speaker 1: of a single six year term and then you're done,

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Speaker 1: and that's called I believe it's called a pronounced sex

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Speaker 1: senio ben or a six year term.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct, sex saniel six year term. The main

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Speaker 2: thing is full stop you once you were president, even

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Speaker 2: for an abbreviated term, as like a caretaker of some sort,

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Speaker 2: you can never run again. That is seen as too

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Speaker 2: much power. There are other differences as well. Partially, one

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Speaker 2: of the big ones is the day of the week.

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Speaker 2: Here in the US you vote for people on for

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Speaker 2: some reason, Tuesdays, and in Mexico election always occur on Sundays.

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Speaker 1: I kind of like the ring of super Sundays over

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Speaker 1: super Tuesdays. Personally, the alliteration's got that going for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. Another major difference here is that in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight, in Mexico, there was not a pandemic

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Speaker 3: going on, so people actually went out physically to vote.

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Speaker 3: They didn't have to get paper ballots into their house

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Speaker 3: or you know, absentee ballots or do anything online. Again

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Speaker 3: hampered a bit there by the technological side, but you

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Speaker 3: had to go physically and do this. Oh and here's

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Speaker 3: the other big thing that we've talked about on this

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Speaker 3: show many a time. In the United States, there are

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Speaker 3: how many presidential parties they can buy for election? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: just two? Just two. In Mexico, on the other hand,

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Speaker 3: there are three principal political parties. But the really good

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Speaker 3: thing here, and this is maybe similar to the US,

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Speaker 3: there are a bunch of you know, smaller parties in

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Speaker 3: Mexico where if you think about thing like the Green

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Speaker 3: Party or the Libertarian Party. There are multiple parties here

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Speaker 3: in the US as well, they just don't have much

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Speaker 3: power when it comes to being able to secure enough

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Speaker 3: votes to win an election.

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Speaker 2: By design. Yeah, and I believe we've talked about that before.

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Speaker 2: The way the funding works is after as a party

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Speaker 2: in the US, if you get a certain portion of

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Speaker 2: the vote, then you get federally matched funding of a

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Speaker 2: certain type. It's really it's tremendously, unreasonably cartoonishly difficult for

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Speaker 2: a third party to break through in the US. And

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Speaker 2: again that's not a bug, that's a feature. It's very

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Speaker 2: much by design. But Matt, as he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's this plurality of parties in Mexico. And this also

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Speaker 2: goes into how the winner of the election is decided.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, it gets a little complicated when you're thinking

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Speaker 3: about elections in the United States because we have this

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Speaker 3: thing called the electoral college system. Again, we have spoken

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Speaker 3: about this before, and it's a bit weird because throughout

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Speaker 3: the electoral college or within this system, each state has

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Speaker 3: a certain number of these votes, and then when the voting,

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Speaker 3: you know, the popular vote comes in from all of

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Speaker 3: the citizens within let's say Georgia. Depending on the proportion

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Speaker 3: of you know, popular voting for candidate A versus candidate

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Speaker 3: B is going to depend how many electoral college votes

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Speaker 3: actually get cast for the president for the presidential election.

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Speaker 3: And now that here's where it gets really weird. It

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Speaker 3: changes depending on the state you're in because some states

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Speaker 3: give all the electoral college votes to the winner, others

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Speaker 3: give a proportional amount of votes to the winner, and.

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Speaker 2: The political party are in charge of the electoral college voters.

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Speaker 1: Right and off. Mike, I was confused, as many of

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Speaker 1: you may may still be, about the difference between majority

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Speaker 1: and plurality. And Ben made the great point that plurality

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Speaker 1: and theory allows more cooperation between parties, and our electoral

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Speaker 1: college system is sort of set up to be incredibly

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Speaker 1: divisive between parties and the cooperation just isn't a thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's very much an all or nothing kind of

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Speaker 1: campaign with very little cooperation across the board. And that's

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Speaker 1: sort of been a big issue with our government in general.

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Speaker 1: Is this idea of like, you know, communicating across the

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Speaker 1: aisle or whatever. So when I first heard this, I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is interesting. This seems like a better system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So that's that's one of the big differences

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Speaker 2: for how the winner is chosen. In the episode of Highland,

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Speaker 2: or known as presidential elections. In Mexico, the winner is

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Speaker 2: chosen by plurality. In the US, the winner is chosen

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Speaker 2: through majority. And as you said, Matt, the electoral college

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Speaker 2: system is a complicated thing by design. It does, it

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Speaker 2: has good intentions, and it functions often to sort of

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Speaker 2: remove power from from many demographics. That's that's why, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's weird for outside observers to say, wait, this candidate

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Speaker 2: lost the popular vote, why are they president? Like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: we have this whole other vote, we don't get to

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Speaker 2: really vote at it. But you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 2: one that counts.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I know a lot of people have problems saying that,

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Speaker 2: but there's not many holes you can poke on what

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Speaker 2: I just said.

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Speaker 1: Ben. I love that you mentioned best intentions. I think

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Speaker 1: that's going to be a big theme in today's episode

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Speaker 1: that we're going to see popping up and what that

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Speaker 1: actually means, and you know, where are those intentions coming from.

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Speaker 1: That can make a huge difference.

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Speaker 3: Let's just continue on this train of some of the

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Speaker 3: similarities and differences just between voting and elections in the

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Speaker 3: US versus Mexico. So in the United States, here our

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Speaker 3: elections take place in November. Our presidential elections at least

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Speaker 3: take place in November, and then whoever wins goes into

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Speaker 3: office and is inaugurated in January of the following year.

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Speaker 3: Now in Mexico, the elections are held in early July,

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Speaker 3: and then whoever wins those elections comes in in December,

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Speaker 3: which is really interesting. It's like getting a bit of

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Speaker 3: an early start on the new year, or like being

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Speaker 3: able to establish the office prior to having to really

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Speaker 3: begin executing anything.

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Speaker 1: Like it's like becoming a teacher during the summer, so

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Speaker 1: you get your you know, you get to do your

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Speaker 1: prep work before the school year starts, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: like starting on day one with zero time to get

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Speaker 1: your ducks in a row. I don't know, that's sort

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Speaker 1: of a silly comparison, but I.

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Speaker 2: Think it holds not bad at all. I think that's astute.

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Speaker 2: And the interesting thing here is, remember we said that

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Speaker 2: presidents only get to serve one term, so they're already

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Speaker 2: kind of on the way out, which you know, by

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Speaker 2: year five, year six, which makes the parties in Mexico,

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Speaker 2: the ones who got the president elected, even more influential.

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Speaker 2: And in this country in Mexico, the sitting president, whoever

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Speaker 2: they are, whatever their party is, they are banned from

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Speaker 2: endorsing any candidate, and they're banned from campaigning with them,

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Speaker 2: at least officially.

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Speaker 3: But think about that. Imagine if you live within the

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Speaker 3: US or you just watch the news around the time

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Speaker 3: of a US presidential election, imagine how often you see

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Speaker 3: a sitting president speaking highly of the next person within

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Speaker 3: their party that's in line to take over. It's so

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Speaker 3: it's just such a ubiquitous image that goes out there

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Speaker 3: and a way to use existing power to promote the

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Speaker 3: next person.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it carries so much weight, and it's just

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Speaker 1: part of the system. The idea of an endorsement is

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Speaker 1: as part of the system as you know, casting your vote.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's completely intertwined with the idea of democracy.

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Speaker 1: No one thinks anything negative about the idea of an endorsement, right.

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Speaker 3: I guess what I mean is it's a lever to

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Speaker 3: pull in an attempt to maintain the power structures for

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Speaker 3: that party.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And it's one of the biggest it's one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest switches you can pull. In fact, here

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Speaker 2: in the US, it would be extraordinary. It would be unprecedented. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: it would be unprecedented for a sitting president not to endorse,

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Speaker 2: especially you know, at the end of their true terms

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Speaker 2: or they're not running for reelection.

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Speaker 1: It would be bizarre.

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Speaker 2: It would be like we're in the upside down for

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Speaker 2: a sitting president to not endorse the candidate from their party,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there are many other differences, you know,

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Speaker 2: especially when you get to the congressional voting levels and

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Speaker 2: nuts and bolts of that, as well as the physical

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Speaker 2: way voting is carried out. But for what we're exploring today,

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Speaker 2: that's what you need to know about the presidency in Mexico,

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Speaker 2: and multiple observers will probably assure you that the aspects

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Speaker 2: of the voting system in Mexico are superior to parts

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Speaker 2: of the US voting system. But let's explore a specific

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Speaker 2: example and why it matters today. We'll do this after

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Speaker 2: a word from our sponsor. On July sixth, nineteen eighty eight,

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Speaker 2: Mexico held its scheduled election. This was part of the

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Speaker 2: normal political process. There were three candidates in the front running,

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Speaker 2: each from one of the three primary political party power sources.

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Speaker 2: It was Carlos Selinas de Gotari, Puontemac Cardinas and Manuel

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Speaker 2: Clothier were not native speakers, so apologies for any mispronunciations there,

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Speaker 2: But ultimately here's what happened. The very end of it

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Speaker 2: is that the Ministry of the Interior declared Salinas the

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Speaker 2: winner and said that he had received fifty point seven

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Speaker 2: percent of the vote five zero point seven. This was

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Speaker 2: the lowest winning number for a candidate in the entire

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Speaker 2: history of Mexico's election system since it started in nineteen seventeen.

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Speaker 2: It was just like just eke and past the post.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like a nose to nose finished there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that point seven made all the difference, and that

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Speaker 1: was since the institution of the system in nineteen seventeen.

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Speaker 1: And so that leads to some questions, was it rigged

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Speaker 1: that sure as a narrow margin, it seems like a

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Speaker 1: little bit suspect perhaps, And it turns out there were

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Speaker 1: some reasons to be suspicious of this. There were problems

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Speaker 1: with the process from the offset. Initial results from around

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Speaker 1: the capital showed that mister Selenas was losing quite badly

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Speaker 1: to the opposition leader, mister Cardenas, and people started to

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Speaker 1: claim from those early days that the election was written

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Speaker 1: that Selenas was not the true president. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's something that is pretty common we hear it in

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Speaker 1: this country as well, the idea that when things are close,

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Speaker 1: that something is afoot, that there is some sort of

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Speaker 1: foul plays involved. And as I said, plenty of examples

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Speaker 1: in the history of the United States. To compare this

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Speaker 1: to so what's different about this case.

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Speaker 3: Well, the thing that's different is that in this case

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Speaker 3: we're not just seeing claims that this election was rigged,

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Speaker 3: you know, on internet forums after the fact. We're not

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Speaker 3: looking at claims from the opposition saying that something was wrong,

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Speaker 3: or pundits who are going on television, you know, just

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Speaker 3: to speak poorly about the person that won. No, we

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Speaker 3: actually have somebody that came forward in two thousand and four,

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Speaker 3: man named Miguel de la Madrid, and he confirmed everything.

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Speaker 3: So the big question is like can we trust him?

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Speaker 3: First of all, who is he? Why does he matter?

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Speaker 3: And there's an answer to that because see, mister Madrid,

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Speaker 3: this was the president of Mexico at the time of

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Speaker 3: the election in nineteen eighty eight, so he was the

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Speaker 3: guy sitting on the throne when all of this went down,

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Speaker 3: and he is the guy who has come forward to

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Speaker 3: confirm it.

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Speaker 2: Here's where it gets crazy. So was this vote compromised?

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Speaker 2: Years later, the answer seems to be emphatically yes, one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent. In a fairly lengthy autobiography released in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and four something, it ran about eight hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty pages, as former president mister dela Madrid recounted how

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Speaker 2: he and other government officials were also associated with his party,

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Speaker 2: the Institutional Revolutionary Party or PRI as it's called. They

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Speaker 2: were terrified that the opposition candidate Cardenas would win the vote,

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Speaker 2: and so if he won the vote, he would drive

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Speaker 2: their hand picked successor out of office. But he would

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Speaker 2: do something much more dangerous to them than that. He

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Speaker 2: would drive the PRI party out of power, and that

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Speaker 2: meant that they got they would get their fingers cut

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Speaker 2: out from a lot of pies that they were in

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Speaker 2: in business and government, likely in criminal activities. I said

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Speaker 2: what I said, and this is terrifying. He is so

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Speaker 2: candid about it now, Mister de la Madrid said when

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Speaker 2: he heard the news about how bad things were going,

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Speaker 2: when the people were actually allowed to vote the way

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Speaker 2: they wanted to, he said, I thought like a bucket

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Speaker 2: of ice water had fallen on me. I became afraid

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Speaker 2: that the results were similar across the country and that

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Speaker 2: the PRI would lose the presidency. Notice he doesn't say

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Speaker 2: the presidential candidate would lose the presidency. He says the

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Speaker 2: party would lose the presidency, so.

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Speaker 1: He would lose control. Right, So what happened? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean as Pole results started coming in, the Secretary of

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Speaker 1: the Interior told him that the initial results were not

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Speaker 1: looking good for the PRI and the public demanded these returns,

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Speaker 1: according to Madrid himself, and rather than giving those results,

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Speaker 1: the government lied and said the computer system had crashed

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Speaker 1: or there was some kind of fatal error failure. And

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Speaker 1: the president of the pr I told Madrid, quote, you

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Speaker 1: have to proclaim the triumph of the pri. It is

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Speaker 1: a tradition that we cannot break without causing great alarm

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Speaker 1: among the city.

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Speaker 3: Sense.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it got really weird because I don't know

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Speaker 4: if anyone listening can remember back to the two thousand

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Speaker 4: elections when the candidates were George W.

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Speaker 3: Bush and Al Gore here in the United States, and

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Speaker 3: there was great confusion in this country when the media,

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Speaker 3: various media organizations began coming forward and declaring that one

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Speaker 3: of the two men had won with you know, only

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Speaker 3: a fairly small or moderate proportion of the votes coming in.

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Speaker 3: But all of these media companies were using different models

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Speaker 3: to figure out what, well, if we have this proportion

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Speaker 3: of votes at this time, then we can declare this.

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Speaker 3: It just became very strange, and lots of people got

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Speaker 3: it wrong and quickly but they made those mistakes early,

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Speaker 3: so it felt like that was the reality, you know.

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Speaker 2: But that's yeah, that's that's the thing just that we

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Speaker 2: have to remember. There's there's the fog of war, right,

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Speaker 2: and there's the incompetence that can always occur. But then also,

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Speaker 2: these are commercial media outlets reporting this. They depend on

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Speaker 2: advertiser dollars, and it is it is fundamentally true that

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Speaker 2: they are getting pushed behind, you know, behind closed doors.

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Speaker 2: I think of it as like we were thinking of

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Speaker 2: the right word to like describe shenanigans. Maybe we call

401
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Speaker 2: it shenanaganocity, right, both the type of the shenanigan and

402
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Speaker 2: the direction and speed at which it travels. You can

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Speaker 2: trace this stuff. There's a reason that in two thousand,

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Speaker 2: Fox News was telling you something very different from what

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Speaker 2: CNN or MSNBC or so on we're saying.

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Speaker 3: And the same kind of thing, not exact ex actually

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Speaker 3: the same, but a very similar thing was occurring in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight there in Mexico in July during this

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Speaker 3: election where the opposition parties, as they're you know, they've

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Speaker 3: got their own teams that are looking at results as

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Speaker 3: any and all communications are happening and these candidates. So

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Speaker 3: we've got the three candidates, right, one of them is

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Speaker 3: in the PRI party, and then the other two or

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Speaker 3: not the opposition candidates to the PRI are coming forward

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Speaker 3: and saying, hey, we are the winner. Look, it's clear

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Speaker 3: from the voting that's come in thus far we won,

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Speaker 3: thank you very much. So everyone's declaring themselves the winner

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Speaker 3: at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so what do you do? The PRI had

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Speaker 1: to kind of beat them to the punch at the

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Speaker 1: very least, and without any official vote count. The president

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Speaker 1: of the pr I declared his party the winner, and

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Speaker 1: mister Madrid rites again in this tell all kind of

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Speaker 1: bombshell biography autobiography quote. As in any emergency, we had

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Speaker 1: to act because the problems were rising fast. There was

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Speaker 1: not a moment for great meditation. We needed agility in

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Speaker 1: our response to consolidate. There's this word again that gives

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Speaker 1: me chills. Kind of the triumph of the PRI. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and you know, blaming it on computer malfunction wasn't like

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Speaker 1: some kind of you know reach. I mean, the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: responsible for accounting these for these votes had broken down

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Speaker 1: at least two times.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, under my serious circumstances aka cough cough. It was

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Speaker 2: shut down cough, cough at least twice. But technical difficulties

435
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Speaker 2: are a good or a good thing to rely on.

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00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: You know. It's the old dog ate my homework of

437
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 2: voting sometimes and and it's it's fascinating because this, this

438
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: is the point where every minute counts, and you know,

439
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: when we talk about the greater good here just a

440
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: plant to seed for somewhere earth or later conversation. It's

441
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: important to note that these these guys are practicing a

442
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: psychological problem or fallacy that's common with every every human being,

443
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: every every person, which is this idea that what is

444
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: what I think is good and is best for me,

445
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: since I'm the main character of my story, is therefore

446
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: good for everyone. Like guys, I'm the protagonist. So what

447
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 2: I want is you should automatically want you should care

448
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: more about me than you care about yourself or other people.

449
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: Nobody ever ultimately forgives other people for the great sin

450
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: of not also being them. And in politics, you know,

451
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: we see this, we see this writ large Like I

452
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: think it's a really interesting question that line about, like

453
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: we need to have the triumph of the pri because

454
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: you know, the implication there is that we are then

455
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: guaranteeing stability for the country. That's something good for things

456
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: to remain the way they are. It's it's just it's interesting.

457
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: It's not like they're you know, Monty Burns esque wheedling

458
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 2: their fingers around or what is it, what's it called

459
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 2: steepling their fingers and going, yeah, going, you know, yes,

460
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: let's let it burn and then kick puppies down the streets.

461
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: They think they're doing good.

462
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: That's right. And that's something we were talking about off,

463
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: you know, before we started rolling today, This idea of

464
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: the greater good, this idea for the good of the nation. Like,

465
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: if you truly believe your ideological stance, then why wouldn't

466
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: you think, you know, keeping your party in power is

467
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: for the greater good? Uh, And it could well be

468
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: with good intentions and not some kind of you know,

469
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: we just want to screw over the other guy, and

470
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: and and it'd be for some sort of nefarious reason.

471
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: Not to say that there aren't nefarious reasons, because ideology

472
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: is a slippery slope, and oftentimes people believe things that

473
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: are not for the greater good. But if they do

474
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: believe it, then that's a powerful thing belief. So Yeah,

475
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: as far as they were concerned, this notion of protecting,

476
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: defending this historical triumph of the pri was with the

477
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: best intentions and as far as they were concerned for

478
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: the greater good of the nation.

479
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they did it. They declared they were the winners,

480
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 3: and it kind of worked. We'll tell you all about it.

481
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 3: After a word from our sponsor.

482
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: We returned. So it's not a conspiracy theory. The acting

483
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: government in Mexico, despite all the laws against endorsing or

484
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: you know, tipping the scales, he conspired with his entire crew,

485
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: his entire cohort, and his colleagues to rig the election.

486
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: The world's media was aware of the controversy at the time.

487
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: The immediate aftermath of this is was not some kind

488
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: of arcane secret to international observers. There's a journalist storer

489
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: h who was writing for the Chicago Tribune at the

490
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 2: time who the article is really interesting to read because

491
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: Rally spins the first few paragraphs basically saying, you know,

492
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: Mexico is so crooked like as not a spoiler. The

493
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: elections have always like it's it's like part of the

494
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: culture of Mexico to rig elections, which is you know,

495
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 2: not the most helpful way to lead into this story.

496
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, the quote that he pulls right in that first

497
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: paragraph ben of about how the stuff that was happening

498
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: in this presidential election would quote make even an old

499
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 3: time Chicago machine politician proud. That's just like whoa exactly.

500
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then Rally writes vote rigging is a quote

501
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: time honor tradition, but these nineteen eighty eight elections go

502
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 2: a step further. And then we have the quote about

503
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: the kind of vocabulary in jars again that sprang up

504
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: just about this election and what people were doing, kind

505
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: of the way that you heard hearing gone terms during

506
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: US elections, like the hanging chads. It's all about the

507
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 2: hanging chads. There were versions of this nineteen eighty eight

508
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: in Mexico.

509
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, this is this one really got me

510
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: the idea of something called vote tacos, which would be

511
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: a single ballot folded over itself and then stuffed with

512
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: twenty other ballots that are pre marked, pre filled out

513
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: for the ruling party candidate. And then something called turtleism,

514
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: which is the deliberate delaying of the opening of the

515
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: polls in order to discourage folks from the opposite voting

516
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: party to vote because of long lines, hoping to just

517
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: kind of have them kind of throw their hands up

518
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: and go home. And then back to what you mentioned,

519
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: Ben about you know, whether or not they purposefully shut

520
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: down some of these digital systems, electronic systems, this notion

521
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: of cybernetic fraud, the government's use of computers to mold

522
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: election data at will, whether that's just poll data or

523
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: actually manipulating the voting record. What do you think, Ben,

524
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: combination of the two.

525
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I am the worst person to ask, but

526
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: I think we're all we're all kind of on the

527
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 2: on the same page here that these these tactics they

528
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: really happened. Right now. We have to remember, you know,

529
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight, cybernetic fraud was a very forward facing term,

530
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like that's cyber that's crazy.

531
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: That's before we remember in the nineties when everything was

532
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 2: touted as being digital. This was like very almost space

533
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 2: age pleading edge technology. And at the time, the other

534
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: political candidates had their you know, each of whom declared

535
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: themselves the winners, They had their own statements. As widespread

536
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: voter manipulation was coming out, cardenas was a National Democratic

537
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: Front candidate said that if any of this stuff was true,

538
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: and if it was all true, it would technically be

539
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: the equivalent of a coup d'tat, and he's not wrong,

540
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: he's technically correct.

541
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: And there were all kinds of allegations coming forward from

542
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 3: varying segments of the population in Mexico who had very

543
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 3: specific allegations. And you know, if you look at if

544
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 3: you look at that Chicago Tribune article that we mentioned above,

545
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 3: you can see this stuff actually written out. They would

546
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 3: come forward with things like what was known as carouseling

547
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: or what was known as a carousel where groups of

548
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 3: pri officials, government employees would go together in a group.

549
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 3: It would be pre arranged with the people running the

550
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 3: polling place, and they would vote once at that polling

551
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: place let's call it A. Then they would go together

552
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: and vote at polling place B, and the people running

553
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 3: that polling station would let them into and it was

554
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 3: just kind of a known thing that this crew was

555
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: coming through to vote multiple times.

556
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: And if I'm how mistaken, that's similar to some of

557
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: the Tammany Hall kind of corrupt voting practices that we

558
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: talked about earlier in terms of like a lot of

559
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: similarities between the two and one way that this was

560
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: enabled was the use of this particular ink, like you

561
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: know how like if you take a kid to chuck

562
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: e cheese, they make you get a stamp on your

563
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: hand and then one on your kid's hand, and then

564
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: when you leave, they got to compare the stamps. Maybe

565
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: people who don't have kids don't know this, but it's

566
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: a thing. I was impressed when I first experienced it.

567
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: In that way, you can't take someone else's kid. In

568
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: that same way, they had a system of using this

569
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: ink that wouldn't wash off to prove that you've only

570
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: voted once. And someone named Katalina Presser, who was a

571
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: housewife and National Action representative who was a pole observer,

572
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: noticed that they wouldn't let them use their own inc.

573
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: They they would supply this inc that would wash off

574
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: more easily, so that they could, you know, get get

575
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: away with voting more than once. Even though to your point, Ben,

576
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: there certainly were observers that were in on it as well.

577
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: And then you had something called alchemy laboratories, which sounds

578
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: desperately sinister.

579
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: Right, Gotta love the name. Alchemy laboratories describes the practice

580
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: of creating secret computer terminals to function as an access point,

581
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: a weak link in the transit from a voting station

582
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: to the government tabulation center, so you could pop in

583
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: from you know, from point A to point B. You

584
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 2: could pop in in that space between them, and then

585
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: you could alter things to make it a little bit

586
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: more pro pr i or a lot of bit more

587
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: pro pri i. And these are these are just three

588
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: of the specific allegations. These are three that were later

589
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: backed up with very compelling evidence. But despite all of this,

590
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: the political machine that the pri had built rolled on.

591
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: It was undeterred. Selina's became the president of Mexico, and

592
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 2: the world media eventually shifted it's ever mercurial focus to

593
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: other affairs. Well wait, you might be saying, isn't there

594
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: evidence of this?

595
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: Now?

596
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the president at the time fully confessed

597
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: to what happened and to the fact that this was rigged.

598
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: But in the years after that election, something very interesting happened.

599
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 2: There's of course internal investigation and so on. And as

600
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 2: these concerns arising, they won't go away domestically in Mexico.

601
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 2: Just three years later, in nineteen ninety one, the Mexican

602
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 2: Congress orders all of the physical ballots of the nineteen

603
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: eighty eight election to be burned. So you heard that right. Yeah,

604
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: they literally took all the actual votes without recounting them

605
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 2: or examining them or so on, and they set them aflame.

606
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:17,479
Speaker 1: So there goes the proof.

607
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 3: It's incredible because we all know, everyone listening knows that

608
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 3: when voting is electronic, no matter how it's done, that information,

609
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 3: that data, no matter how encrypted, can be manipulated. If

610
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 3: you are intelligent and have trained yourself and are good

611
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: with systems, you can manipulate that information. And now especially

612
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 3: if it's basic information coming from paper ballots that's just

613
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 3: recording how many people voted for who, and you've got

614
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,479
Speaker 3: three names on that ballot, and people are using ink

615
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 3: or you know, chads. They're not using chad, they're using

616
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 3: ink in this system, at least from what I understand,

617
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 3: if you're getting rid of the paper ballots, the only

618
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: thing the actual receipts. If you get rid of those,

619
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: you can never prove that the data on a computer

620
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: that's stored there is going to be real.

621
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: Or not, or it's certainly much more difficult. I mean,

622
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,320
Speaker 1: there are like computer forensic specialists that can you know

623
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: see if things were you know, there's there's certain like

624
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: little markers in way, but yes, one hundred percent.

625
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 3: Well in the end, in the end, it's whatever was inserted,

626
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: whatever was put into that machine the first time, right,

627
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what you're going to find. And even

628
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: if you even if it's been manipulated, I'm just saying, like,

629
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 3: that's the best you can do now is get the initial.

630
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: It's the very definition of a paper trail, right. I mean,

631
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: it gives you something physical that you can look at

632
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: and say, see, we have them here, But they didn't

633
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: have them because they burned them well, and they.

634
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 3: Did it before their party even had the potential of

635
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: losing power.

636
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 2: Right, speak about that the midway point. It's three years

637
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: into a six year term. There are three more years

638
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: that will pass in which this new cycle can deviate.

639
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,760
Speaker 2: But surely you might be asking, surely there were consequences.

640
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, this is a huge country. This

641
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: is a country that is at the forefront of so

642
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: many things. Surely someone is going to you know, at

643
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: least get scapegoated, right Like whenever politicians get caught here

644
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: it's kind of a hazard of the job. Working as

645
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: an underlean that one day you may be on that

646
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: stone chair, one day you may be the sacrifice at

647
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: the altar to save your boss. But get this, there

648
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: were no legal ramifications. There were just none. Even when

649
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: even in two thousand and four, two thousand and five,

650
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 2: when Madrid comes out and says, yeah, we rigged it,

651
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: his old colleg leagues turned on him and they were like,

652
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: a did we though.

653
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they completely discredited him, characterized him as being some

654
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: kind of bitter old man, possibly even us some little

655
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: ageous tactics against him because he was seventy one at

656
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: the time. But yeah, they also trotted out the old

657
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: trustee that his comments were being taken out of context,

658
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: which is basically like gaslighting the public saying no, no, no, no,

659
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: he said what he said, but you don't understand what

660
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: he really meant, and then didn't give him the opportunity

661
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: to respond or you know, just kind of buried it.

662
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: So it really kind of makes you wonder, what's what

663
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: went on in subsequent elections, what's going on right now.

664
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: It's kind of like when Codin O'Brien keeps trying to

665
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 2: say that he said he takes he steals children's shoes

666
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: and nails them to the walls of his closet.

667
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 3: Was a figure of speech, right, exactly the same thing, Ben, the.

668
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: Worst egg we've ever gone.

669
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: I love that you put that in though, because I

670
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 3: just heard him talk about that.

671
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: Well, it can be used in a different way too,

672
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: Like you know with our current president, he'll make comments,

673
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: they'll be taken a certain way, and then he'll come

674
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: back and try to pick up the pieces by saying, oh, no,

675
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: you took what I said out of context, and then

676
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: but ultimately it's a it's a form of spin that

677
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: he's doing himself with this megaphone that he has and

678
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: in the form of Twitter and this direct line to

679
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: the public, so he's not even filtering it through pr

680
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: He himself is saying no, no, no, you don't understand

681
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 1: what I meant. I meant this, And it's a way

682
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: of potentially being able to say whatever he wants and

683
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 1: then have an out later. So this isn't quite the

684
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: same thing, but it's it's it's not that far off.

685
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: I would just say it's astonishing to me, not to

686
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 3: make it personal, but it's it is astonishing that this

687
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,279
Speaker 3: is the first I'm hearing about this when our our

688
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: friend left that voicemail. It was the first time I

689
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: had learned about the nineteen eighty eight presidential election. Perhaps

690
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 3: because I didn't take enough government classes or something in

691
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 3: my educational pursuits, but maybe I would have heard about it.

692
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 3: But dang, I wonder how many people out there listening

693
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 3: right now knew about this, because it feels surreal that

694
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 3: this could happen.

695
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: It's also it's massively disquieting to see how many contemporaneous

696
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: quotations exist from voters in Mexico at the time who

697
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: are saying, look, the pri is going to do something.

698
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 2: They're gonna win. I'm going to vote against them, but

699
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: they're gonna win. And it turned out that they were right.

700
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 2: And I think you guys are making fantastic points. It

701
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 2: makes you wonder about other elections. We don't talk about

702
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 2: it in this country as often as we should. We're

703
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: very fortunate. I think we talked about it a little

704
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 2: bit when it's monologuing on a on a previous episode

705
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: about North Korea. But the peaceful passage of power, the

706
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: peaceful transfer is an enormously vulnerable time for any country,

707
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: and we have as a country in the US been very,

708
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: very fortunate these things. You know, these things end in

709
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: war more often than you know a lot of people

710
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: would be comfortable believing. That's because democracy is not a

711
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: static institution. The House is haunted, and it always has been.

712
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: It's never been a safe institution either. As a resident

713
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: of any country that allows voting, you're probably often told

714
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: that you're right to do so, right, But it's not

715
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: quite your right. It's your responsibility. And there are a

716
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 2: lot of people who say, well, I don't vote because

717
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, because you know, whomever I vote for,

718
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 2: there's always gonna be something like the pri and they're

719
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 2: always going to come in and they're always going to win, right,

720
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 2: But that does not absolve you of that responsibility. That's

721
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: like saying, you know what, I got up this morning,

722
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make my bed because at some

723
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: point in the future I'll just have to make it again.

724
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: That's not the point. The point of this. The difference

725
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: between making your bed and voting, I guess I'm going

726
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: to ride this horrible analogy into the sunset is it

727
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: is a voting is a responsibility that numerous powers wherever

728
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 2: you live, numerous powers do not want to see you

729
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 2: exercise this thing, Why ask yourself, like, why why does

730
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: the Mexican election of nineteen eighty eight three decades more

731
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 2: than three decades from now? Why does it seem like

732
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: a parable Why does it seem like a cautionary tale?

733
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: Why is election Day not a holiday in the United States?

734
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: Why does voting seem I don't know about you, guys.

735
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: I think we're.

736
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: You know, we're not the dullest crayons in the box, right,

737
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 2: we can figure stuff out. But the rules for voting

738
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: are so byzantine. There's so many opportunities for things to

739
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: go wrong. Is it by accident and competence? Is it

740
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: by design?

741
00:44:59,360 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 3: Like?

742
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 2: I mean, why do you guys think this is the case?

743
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: Why is voting not a holiday here? Well?

744
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, Ben, but you got me thinking I

745
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: really need to go make up my bed as soon

746
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: as we finish this podcast, both as a real thing

747
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: that I should do and as your analogy, which holds

748
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: true because you're right, it's a maintenance thing. You can't

749
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: just lean on your laurels and be like, Okay, it

750
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: worked once, now I don't ever have to do it again,

751
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 1: Or Okay, I did it once. You got to police

752
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: it yourself. You have to be aware, you have to

753
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: pay attention and not settle for anything less than openness

754
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: of democracy. And it's not always easy to do, and

755
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: we were living in a time where it feels like

756
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:40,319
Speaker 1: it's maybe even slipping away even more. But I think,

757
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, I would just join you, both of you,

758
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: gentlemen and urging folks, just to pay attention and don't

759
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: don't give up in the process just because you don't

760
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: think it's working for you all the time, because it

761
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: might not happen overnight, but it's definitely something that you

762
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: have to kind of keep keep at and keep after

763
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: to make work or to at least exercise your part

764
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: of it working.

765
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 3: Okay, I got two things, just the concept that we

766
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,959
Speaker 3: outlined earlier in the episode that in Mexico you vote

767
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,959
Speaker 3: on a Sunday and in the United States you vote

768
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: on a Tuesday. And we live in countries that are

769
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: capitalists and based on people working during workdays a lot

770
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 3: of times to make money to then pay taxes to

771
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 3: then support the government. And you vote on the people

772
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 3: that you want to run the government. But just for

773
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 3: us to do it on a Tuesday versus even if

774
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 3: it's not a holiday. Ben. If it's just on a weekend,

775
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 3: I can see that being very beneficial for a large

776
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: portion of people. However, if it's on a weekend, then

777
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 3: all of the people who work in restaurants, all the

778
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 3: people you know who work in service industry and hospitality,

779
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: I mean, they're not going to have an easier time

780
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 3: voting if it's on a Sunday. So basically, you've kind

781
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: of like reconvinced me that it absolutely should be a

782
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: holiday the way we have bank holidays or any other

783
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 3: holiday where that's all you do that day, that's it.

784
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: And there's a lot being made of the legality or

785
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: illegality of mail in votes. I think that was a

786
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: big thing that you know, was fact checked by Twitter

787
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: that no, it is perfectly legal to mail in your

788
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: vote and to do an absentee ballot, et cetera. And

789
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: you know, the very fact that there's rhetoric around trying

790
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: to demonize the practice of doing a mail in ballot

791
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,320
Speaker 1: seems to be part of this whole rigging the system situation.

792
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what do you guys think about that.

793
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: It's been a big topic of debate here in the

794
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 1: United States of late.

795
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: The thing is part of it goes back to, I

796
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: would say, kind of decentralization of the voting process. The

797
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 2: fact that it's state by state, the fact that some

798
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 2: people who can vote in one state, felons for example,

799
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: may not be able to vote in another. Those kind

800
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 2: of things inherently mean that the circumstances state by state

801
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 2: are not equal in this regard.

802
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: And when they are not equal in this regard.

803
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 2: Then that means that people are I wouldn't say necessarily

804
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 2: being disenfranchised, but people are not getting the same fair

805
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: shot at voting and making their voice heard that people

806
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 2: in other states are. This, I mean, this is profoundly important.

807
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: We do have systems like early voting, right absentee voting,

808
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: and so on. The primary objection, now, the cause du

809
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: jure as we approach November in this country, seems to

810
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: be in this cycle the idea of mail in voting.

811
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 2: The opponents of it, correct me if I'm wrong here.

812
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: The opponents of it say it provides an opportunity for

813
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 2: voter fraud, right, And then the proponents of it say,

814
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 2: you know, I would like to vote without having to

815
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 2: risk getting fired legally in this country, And lawyer does

816
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 2: have to allow you to vote, to go vote.

817
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: But how on earth is that enforced?

818
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 2: Right? And when you know there's also a pandemic going on.

819
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: So if you're you can ask people to risk some

820
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: time out of their day to vote as an educated voter,

821
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 2: But if you are putting them in a position where

822
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: you're forcing them to expose themselves to a potentially fatal infection,

823
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's not something. There's not anything in

824
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 2: the constitution that says you must risk your life to vote,

825
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: So it could lead to self selecting disenfranchisement. I mean

826
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: the one you're point now, the big thing about mail

827
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 2: in voting. The two big ideas at Loggerheads here are

828
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: the idea that voting is important in this country and

829
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: we should therefore make it as easy as possible for

830
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: as many people as possible to voice opinion. And then

831
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 2: the thing opposed to that is the idea that someone

832
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 2: will make what thousands or hundreds of thousands of fake

833
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: ballots and put those in. But that would take I

834
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: think we walked through it before. That would take so

835
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: much work for such a small return. You would have

836
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: to be super strategic about it. You would have to

837
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems I'm not going to say

838
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: it's made up concern because there are cases of voter fraud,

839
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: but it seems to be a concern that is being

840
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 2: exploited and misrepresented in the discourse today.

841
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: Well, it's also like not, you know, let's go beyond

842
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: disenfranchisement to disenchantedness. I guess if you're already feeling, you know,

843
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: like why bother, and then you're inconvenience to the point

844
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: of feeling like you have to go out to the

845
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: polls and risk your life and your health to vote,

846
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: you're probably going to stay home. And that's something that

847
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: I think is being exploited as well, that level of

848
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: dis and enchantedness towards the process and this pandemic and

849
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: potentially getting an outcome by saying, oh no, no, no, no, no,

850
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: mail ends you gotta go, you got to go in person.

851
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 1: When the president himself didn't do that. He mailed his

852
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: vote in and drove past the precinct where he could

853
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: have voted in person, which has been a historical thing

854
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: that presidents have done and made a big kind of

855
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: pr move out of it. For whatever the reasoning behind

856
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: it is, it is a thing that We've always remember.

857
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: I always remember seeing the president go to the ballot

858
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: box and vote for himself. Yeah, that's the thing.

859
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 2: Maybe if you are to that enormously important point about disenchantment,

860
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 2: maybe if you are disillusioned disenchanted, well, first off, you.

861
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 1: Have every right to be.

862
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 2: Maybe if you are think about this. I once tried

863
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: to explain to someone who is very anti voting. Once

864
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: tried to explain the most realistic, on the ground, selfish,

865
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 2: self motivated reason to vote, even if you don't care

866
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 2: about other people.

867
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: Here's the way you vote.

868
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 2: It is you buying the right to complain for another

869
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: four years. It is you you now by because you

870
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 2: voted because, in some minute, infinitesimal way, you you tried

871
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 2: to do something, so now you can talk about it.

872
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: If you didn't try to vote, then uh, why are you?

873
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: Why are you pretending like you care in year two?

874
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Because you didn't care that

875
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: day you had the chance to do something about whatever

876
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: your problem is. And that that sounds cold and brutal,

877
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: but it is true, and it should be a motivating factor.

878
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: And of course voting is like the bottom of the

879
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 2: barrel kind of thing. You know, you can get active

880
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: with your community, you can vote in municipal elections, you

881
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: can make your voice heard at town hall meetings. But

882
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 2: of course then it becomes an issue of time, right,

883
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 2: because to your point, Matt, there is a capitalist society. Eventually,

884
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: your employer is probably gonna say, look, you can't keep

885
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: going to these comptroller meetings.

886
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: Do you have a job? What even as a comptroller.

887
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, it's a cliche at this point to not

888
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: know what a comptroller is. It's just the most esoteric

889
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: sounding job. It's something to do with like it's like

890
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: being a treasurer. I don't really know.

891
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: Still, Oh, Matt, I figured this out a it's an

892
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:29,440
Speaker 2: accountant of.

893
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: A type, right, it was a financial thing. Yeah, I

894
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: got it.

895
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, those are important I gosh, okay, just in

896
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 3: we're talking about all this stuff. I would say, go

897
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 3: find the old clip of George Carlin talking about choosing

898
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 3: whether or not to stay at home and family friendly

899
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 3: show pleasure oneself versus going in and voting. Just choosing

900
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 3: between those two things. I would listen to that clip

901
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: from George Carlin. It's pretty it's yeah, it's kind of

902
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 3: what Ben was saying basically, So what I would what

903
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 3: I would just note here is that this thing that

904
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 3: occurred in nineteen eighty eight in Mexico where an election

905
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 3: was just kind of stolen, just it just kind of

906
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 3: happened through official terms by people in power.

907
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 2: You know.

908
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,800
Speaker 3: The question for me then is well, what happens to

909
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 3: the to those people who were in power when this

910
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 3: is just kind of an open thing. Now you can

911
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 3: look at articles on univision dot com and you can

912
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: see this election being talked about. You can see it

913
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: being talked about with relation to the most recent presidential

914
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 3: election that occurred in I believe twenty eighteen, where one

915
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 3: of the officials man named Manuel Bartlett, who was a

916
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 3: part of that nineteen eighty eight one election, he has

917
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 3: actually been appointed to one of the you know, at

918
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: one of the higher administration levels within the sitting government

919
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: by the then president elect I believe it's Obrador, who

920
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 3: was elected in twenty eighteen. So you can see where

921
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 3: even if you're an official who took part in something

922
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 3: like this, if you're still on the same team as

923
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: the people that maintained power, you're gonna get to continue

924
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 3: playing Basically.

925
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, you know what that reminds me of such

926
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: a tangent. One of the guys you got locked up

927
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 2: for the Enron scandal is not only out of prison,

928
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 2: but he's getting back into the energy sector in a

929
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 2: big way. He's super pumped about it.

930
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 3: Is he gonna do asteroids?

931
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 2: Oh? God? Who knows? Manuel Bartlett, though, I'm so glad

932
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: you mentioned that specific name was he was the president

933
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: of the Federal Election Commission in nineteen eighty eight, the

934
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 2: person who kind of like herold's the official decision. And

935
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 2: then he was appointed, you know, fast forward twenty eighteen,

936
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 2: As he said, he was appointed the director of Mexico's

937
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 2: Federal Electricity Commission.

938
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 3: So you know, it's not handling elections anymore at least,

939
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,920
Speaker 3: but computers need electricity. That's where you can manipulate the vote.

940
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: So is this a case of.

941
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: One bad institutional apple? Where is this a cautionary tale

942
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 2: that isn't told as often as it should be. Is

943
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: this just one of many examples? If you are someone

944
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:46,360
Speaker 2: in the US who does vote, you know, regardless of

945
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: what degree you find yourself participating, then now is the

946
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 2: time to go check your voter registration because depending on

947
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: what state you live in, you might be surprised to

948
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: find whether or not you're on the roles. This happens

949
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 2: any number of times for any number of reasons. Not again,

950
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: not all you know, super villain conspiratorial stuff, some just

951
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 2: pure incompetence, or some just the hazard of a machine

952
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: with millions of moving parts. But it is it is

953
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: in your best interest because even if you don't think

954
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 2: your vote counts, you don't want to be someone on

955
00:57:25,880 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: social media in like twenty twenty two talking about something

956
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: and someone ask you if you voted and you say

957
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: you didn't, because that will remove what people will see

958
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: as your right to have an opinion. And we're not

959
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 2: talking about the three or four of us. Are you

960
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 2: listening now, We're talking about the people you talk to later.

961
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 2: Put your money where your.

962
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 3: Mouth is, that's right. And if you do want to

963
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 3: find out what your registration is or what your status

964
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 3: is as a voter within the US, if you have

965
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 3: a search engine, you can find it very easily. There

966
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 3: will be gov website for your state. In all likelihood,

967
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 3: there's one for our state and several others that I

968
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 3: just spot checked, where you can just type in a

969
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: few things about your info. It's usually your date of birth,

970
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 3: your name, and where you are, what county you're in,

971
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 3: and you'll be able to find it.

972
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 2: So we want to know what you think, not just

973
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 2: about elections in general, not just about the future of

974
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: elections in your country abroad. We'd like to hear specific

975
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 2: examples from your neck of the global woods. What Shenanigans

976
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 2: were about. You know, what specific instances do you recall

977
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: and were there were there specific concrete ramifications. Because the

978
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: people who stole an election in Mexico not too long ago,

979
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 2: quite possibly while us and your fellow listeners were alive,

980
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 2: those people got away with it. Those people got away

981
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: was stealing an election, and that's that's just baffling. That's

982
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 2: I would assume it's more difficult than say, stealing a

983
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 2: candy bar or a car. But you know, maybe we

984
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 2: just have to give it the old college go.

985
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: And what happens when you like, let's say this is

986
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: acknowledged unequivocally, we find this out about our government. This happened.

987
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 1: Do you render every decision the illegitimate government made over

988
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: the course of their tenure like null and void, Like

989
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: there's there's really no historical precedent for this, and their

990
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: choice in Mexico was just to pretend it never happened.

991
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 3: Well, Univision makes just a really good point of what

992
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 3: really occurred when they stole the election. The pri i

993
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 3: is that they pushed back by six years the true

994
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 3: in statement of democracy within Mexico basically is what they

995
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 3: were saying, and that maybe that's not the full truth,

996
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 3: because who's to say the elections prior to that were

997
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: also stolen in some way, but but still it kind

998
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 3: of gives you that feeling. Then well, if that one

999
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 3: wasn't real and we were all made to believe that

1000
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 3: it was real, then there's no way to prove that

1001
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 3: the other ones were right or legit. It's just an

1002
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 3: eroding of trust.

1003
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: I think, and we want to know what you think.

1004
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 1: You can write to us in all the usual places

1005
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 1: on social media's or where conspiracy stuff conspiracy stuff show.

1006
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: You can join our Facebook group here's where it gets crazy.

1007
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 2: You can also should the spirit so move you find

1008
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 2: us as individuals. I am at Ben boleanhsw on Twitter.

1009
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 2: I am in a burst of creativity at Ben Bullen

1010
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 2: on Instagram.

1011
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 1: I am at how now Noel Brown just hanging out

1012
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 1: on Instagram actively. I'm on Twitter but I just kind

1013
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: of lurk, so I don't even throw that one out there.

1014
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,959
Speaker 3: And I'm Matt Frederick underscore iHeart. I think maybe you'll

1015
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 3: find it or not. And if you don't want to

1016
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 3: use Instagram or any of those other socials, you can

1017
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 3: give us a call. Our number is one eight three

1018
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 3: three styk. Give us a call, you can leave a message,

1019
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 3: you'll hear Ben's voice. He'll let you know what to

1020
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 3: do and of once you do, like leave that message,

1021
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 3: it'll be about three minutes. Then you can call back

1022
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: again if you want to. If that wasn't enough time,

1023
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 3: feel free to give us a call anytime. It just

1024
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 3: goes straight to voicemail and all three of us have

1025
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 3: access to it, so we will be listening.

1026
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: And if you don't want to do any of that stuff,

1027
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 1: why not just send us a good old fashioned email.

1028
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1029
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1030
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1031
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows