1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Oh, we're doing some uh, we're doing some cool stuff 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: with our classic episode this week, Noel, we're exploring mummies. 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: Mmm, we are indeed that not mummies and Daddy's No. 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 2: Mummy's the embalman kind, the kind that potentially arise from 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 2: the dead and spoop people out on Halloween. It's also 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 2: a fun lo fi costume. Just involve some toilet paper. Yeah. 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: This is the story of a city called Guanayato, and 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: back in the day they instituted a grave tax, which 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: just feels terrible, like that's so petty and penny pinching. 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: You're going to tax people on the way out as well. 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: If you couldn't pay the grave tax, you would run 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: into some harsh penalties. Three, if you fall three years 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: behind on your loved ones resting place, they will dig 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: the body up and they will take it out. 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 2: Of the grave. Yeah. And these bodies were not just 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: non into Egypt. They weren't like wrapped in linens and 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: mama in that classic fashion. They were somehow found to 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 2: have been naturally mummified, and words spread and it became 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: something of a sideshow attraction, which is pretty gross. Grave 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: diggers are trying to make a quick buck charging folks 21 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,759 Speaker 2: to take a peek at these naturally mummified remain So 22 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: why don't we jump into the story and hear all 23 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: about the mummies of Guana Yatu. 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show, 25 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Our Halloween streak continues. We want to start 26 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: today's episode by saying this might not be your favorite 27 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: show to listen to while you're reading. You think that's fair, EnL. 28 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: I mean, I say, do what you want, you know, 29 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 2: I find this to be strangely appetizing. I don't know why. Yeah, 30 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: I'm a fan of trying new things. Have you ever 31 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 2: eaten human meat? 32 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: Not knowingly? But there's some interesting things we will discover 33 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: about cannibalism along the way today. My name is Ben. 34 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: Let's hear a shout out for our guest super producer. 35 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: Returning guest super producer Paul Deckett. 36 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: Well that's great as a delayed reaction. So, Paul, have 37 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: you ever read human meat? Paul is shaking his head vehemently. 38 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: Well this is. 39 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: Interesting too, because does it count as autocounibalism? If you 40 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: ever choose your fingernails? 41 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 2: Oh? Come, now, that seems like a semantic rabbit hole. 42 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: There it is. 43 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: It is a bit of one. But we are I 44 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: don't know, like we've both eaten some pretty weird, interesting, 45 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: unique things. But you have never knowingly consumed man flesh. 46 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: No, I have not. 47 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: But as as we learn, for hundreds of years, it 48 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: was not just a thing that people occasionally did. It 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: was considered something healthy. 50 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: Right, it was. And I think this conversation today is twofold. 51 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 2: It's about it's about the power of belief, the placebo effect. 52 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: You know. I was having a really interesting conversation with 53 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: my dear friend Frank yesterday about how so many things 54 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: boiled down to the placebo effect. If we can convince 55 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: ourselves that something is efficacious, whether spiritually, whether mentally, you know, 56 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: mentally psychologically, then it's a way of kind of like 57 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: actively tricking your mind into making you feel a certain way. 58 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: And so many of these things we're gonna talk about 59 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: today were like blood, If you drink the blood of 60 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 2: a healthy person, it will make your blood better. 61 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: Right, this kind of sympathetic magic almost they're this magical thinking. 62 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: The thing that's fascinating about the placebo effect is it 63 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: does have measurable quantifiable results. People can physically improve certain 64 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: medical conditions based on the power of belief alone. And 65 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: at the time when this was in vogue, and the 66 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: period that we will be discussing today is. 67 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: The seventeenth, sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, were that kind of peaked. 68 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's when it peaked in Europe. At least 69 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: back then, they didn't understand the placebo effect. You only 70 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: measured things by their perceived results. And I believe this, 71 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:53,280 Speaker 1: this practice of consuming human flesh and blood for medicinal purposes, 72 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: really peaked in Germany, England, Italy and France right toward 73 00:04:58,880 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: the end of the Renaissance. 74 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: That's right. And some of the information that we're talking 75 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: about today come from a fascinating book by a guy 76 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: named doctor Richard Sugg who teaches over at England's University 77 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: of Durham. And he wrote a book called Mummies, Cannibals 78 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: and Vampires. The History of Corpse Medicine from the Renaissance 79 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 2: to the Victorians. And this stuff was not just for 80 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: the well to do, you know, the elite. It was 81 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: something that trickled down, sometimes quite literally, in the form 82 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: of spurting gushes of blood coming from the necks of 83 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: execution victims in the square to the lower class, who 84 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: believed in this stuff just as much and would go 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: to great pains to get access to whatever they could. 86 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: Of course, the upper class had a lot more access 87 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: to the freshest of the fresh, the best of the best, 88 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: in terms of their parts that they were using to 89 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: make some of these remedies. 90 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: And as sug mentions in an interview with the Smithsonian, 91 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the question was not so much should we eat herehuman flesh, 92 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: but it was more a question of what sort of 93 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: flesh is best to eat? What sort of human flesh 94 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: is best to eat? And at first Egyptian mummies were 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: tremendously popular. 96 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they I mean, I don't know, it seems 97 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: like that would be a lot to go through to 98 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: get yourself get your hands on a legit Egyptian mummy. 99 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Over in Europe, I don't know, there were quite a few. 100 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: There was a mummy glut for some time. 101 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Mummies were a big part of this trend. 102 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 2: Here's here's the thing. They would do things like grind 103 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: up human skulls and then distell them down to alcohol 104 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: to make something that later became popularized by King Charles 105 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: the Second of England in the form of a tincture 106 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: that he referred to as the King's Drops, which again 107 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 2: was human skull powdered and dissolved in alcohol, and it 108 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: supposedly cured everything from epileps to you know, various seizures, headaches, 109 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, whatever you got, The King's drops can can 110 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: cure what ails you. And that's where things get get 111 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: interesting here, because I don't think there's obviously no way 112 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 2: to no scientific data that we have to measure how 113 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: effective this stuff would have been. It was that power 114 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: of belief. It seems like to me, right. 115 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: This is a panacea. Anytime that a medicine has proclaimed 116 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: to be essentially a cure all it may have some 117 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: sort of beneficial effect on certain conditions, but it's almost 118 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: completely unlikely that it would treat all of the conditions listed. 119 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: They also, in addition to the kings Drops, they used 120 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: human fat. Human fat was an external treatment. German doctors 121 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: wanted to soak bandages in human fat or rub fat 122 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: onto the skin as a remedy for gout. This kind 123 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: of stuff may sound sort of gruesome and scary to 124 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: us now, but back then this was seen as something 125 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: that was the well it feels unfair to say it, 126 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: but the bleeding edge of science. You know, these were 127 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: scientists and doctors and priests who were recommending this treatment 128 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: and taking it themselves, oh totally. 129 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, it's really easy to write 130 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: this off as some sort of dark ages kind of 131 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: like blood letting or leeching or whatever. But you know, 132 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: this had the backing of at least the some of 133 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: the greatest minds of the time, one of which was 134 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: a German doctor, a German Swiss doctor for the sixteenth 135 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: century named Paracelsus, and he was all about drinking blood 136 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 2: and thought that it could, you know, help keep you 137 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: from aging. Some of these ideas that we have of 138 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: vamporism even right, like that being forever young or whatever, 139 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 2: or that it could like we said, this notion of 140 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: like cures, like meaning that if you have a blood 141 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: condition or you know, you're a neemic or something, that 142 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: drinking someone else's blood, preferably of a young person, possibly 143 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: a virgin. And a big thing they really liked was 144 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: people that were killed under violent circumstances because supposedly that 145 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: made it more potent in some way, right, the. 146 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: Blood was more vital. And not only not only was 147 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: the blood more vital if someone was killed under violent circumstances, 148 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: but it was more vital if it was given to 149 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: you directly from the executioners, who were these social outcasts 150 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 1: thought to have profound magical abilities. Executioners were seen there 151 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: were still social lepers, but they were they were seen 152 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: as great healers too. And we should mention that this 153 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: kind of practice, while it had it had a heyday 154 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: in Western Europe toward the end of the Renaissance. This 155 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: belief in like cures like cannibalism as medicine dates way 156 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: back into antiquity. In ancient Rome, people who suffered from 157 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: epilepsy drank the blood those slain gladiator. 158 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, or even like ate their livers, I believe. I mean, 159 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: you know, that's about as fresh as it gets, but yeah, 160 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: it's true. Ben. It was a very popular practice that 161 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: as soon as the event was over, epileptics would run 162 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: down and try to drink the blood directly from the body, 163 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 2: something they would refer to as the living blood. And 164 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: there was even a Roman doctor named Scribonius Largas who 165 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: tried to justify some of these things through all kinds 166 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: of pseudoscientific suggestions, and and and indicated that if you 167 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: ate the liver of a stag that was killed by 168 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 2: a weapon that was used to kill a gladiator, then 169 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: that also would be imbued with the magical powers of 170 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: the fallen gladiator. The the what's the word the vitality 171 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 2: kind of. 172 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: Right, And don't worry. This wasn't all just running up 173 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: and trying to immediately get fresh blood from a corpse 174 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: before coagulated. There were also recipes where you you would 175 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: cook stuff and prepare it, and in mummies, cannibals, and 176 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: vampires you can find some depictions of these recipes. So 177 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: the first step was to take blood from quote persons 178 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: of warm, moist temperament, such as those of a blotchy 179 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: red complexion and rather plump of build, and then you 180 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: would let it dry or coagulate into a sticky mass. 181 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: And then you would place it on a flat, smooth 182 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: table of soft wood cut into thin little slices, let 183 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: the watery parts drip away, then put it on a 184 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: stove on the same table, stir it into a batter. 185 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: Wait until it's absolutely dry. Put it on a warm 186 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: bronze mortar pound it through a sieve of finest silk, 187 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: and when it has all been seved, seal it in 188 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: a glass jar renew it in the spring of every year. 189 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: So this was also associated with the passage of seasons, 190 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the sort of the macro version 191 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: of individual life, death and reus. 192 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 2: I've got a favorite quote from an article on Atlas 193 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 2: Obscura about this subject called European corpse medicine promised better 194 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: health through cannibalism. And this comes from a tone called 195 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: the Pharmacopeia medico keemica kimica, I believe kimica. And this 196 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: was by a German doctor named Johann Schroeder, and this 197 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: was written in the seventeenth century. And this is kind 198 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 2: of the end all be all. This sort of sums 199 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: up sort of like what the creme de la creme 200 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: of the specimen that you might be after to get 201 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: you some of these sweet, sweet human meat bits. Quote, 202 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: take the fresh, unspotted cadaver of a redheaded man, because 203 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: in them the blood is thinner and the flesh hence 204 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: more excellent. Aged about twenty four. The body the guy 205 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 2: a person twenty four years old who has been executed 206 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: and died a violent death. Let the corpse lie one 207 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: day and night in the sun and moon, but the 208 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: weather must be good. Flesh and pieces, and sprinkle it 209 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: with mer and just a little aloe. Then soak it 210 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 2: in spirits of wine for several days, hang it up 211 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: for six or ten hours, soak it again in spirits 212 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: of wine. Then let the pieces dry and dry air 213 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: in a shady spot no less. Thus they will be 214 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: similar to smoked meat and will not stink. 215 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, stink is important, and you don't want too much 216 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: alo like that's just basic cannibalism. One oh one, right there, 217 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, nothing ruins and otherwise fantastic 218 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: cadaver more than too much aloe. You have to be 219 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: moderate with that. And as we said, this was again 220 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: this was not a bad thing. These people who were 221 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: being consumed, although they were almost certainly being consumed without 222 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: their consent, in most cases, they were not being punished. 223 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: European practitioners of this believed that they were acquiring vitality, 224 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: but they didn't think they were, you know, stealing the 225 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: souls of their enemy or something aggressive of that nature. 226 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: There's a very interesting point they bring up in Lapham's 227 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: Quarterly Round table. A brief history of medical cannibalism by 228 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: Best Love Joy, which is that while people in Europe 229 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: were consuming blood or livers or human flesh or using 230 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: human fat as a poultice for wounds, they were also 231 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: tremendously discriminatory against a couple of other kinds of cannibalism. 232 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: One would be the alleged practices of indigenous Americans, which 233 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: were wildly exaggerated spun out into these racist, tall tales 234 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: of sworn, monstrous man eating people living on the other 235 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: side of the Atlantic Ocean. And then the second one 236 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: was discrimination against Catholics because. 237 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: Because of transubstantiation, right right, the belief. 238 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: That the wafer wine one consumes a communion does in 239 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: fact become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. So 240 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: they said, these people are cannibals while they are rubbing 241 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: human body fat on their galp boo areas, yeah, on 242 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: their booboos. And this this seems again, this seems strange. 243 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: It seems like some double think. 244 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: You should the quote from that anthropologist to kind of 245 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: just refer to this as being very hypocritical, and I'm 246 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: trying to find it out. You may have it in 247 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: front of you right now, and it was a good one. 248 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: Well, there were people who were against this, or at 249 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: least notice the hypocrisy. Very early on there was a 250 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: French writer named Michel de Montaigne, Sorry, casey, I hope 251 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: we're doing you proud here, who in fifteen point eighty 252 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: attacked the hypocrisy of Europeans who condemned these practices. And 253 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: he said, you know, essentially, you cannot condemn people for 254 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: practicing one kind of ritualized or spiritual cannibalism while you 255 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: are happily grinding up mummies and drinking tinctures and skulls 256 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: and having the King's drops, and then other people, like 257 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: in fifteen sixty, even earlier than that, the herbalist Leonhard Futes, 258 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: that's a tough one had attacked this quote glory matter 259 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: of cadavas sold for medicine, wondering who, unless he approves 260 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: of gadibalism, would not loathe this remedy. 261 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: Here's the one I was talking about. Yeah, that's all 262 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: fascinating and completely on point. This is interesting, though. This 263 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: cultural and medical anthropologist from Vanderbilt named Beth Conklin in 264 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: the Smithsonian article talks about the distinction between non Western 265 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: cannibalism of like indigenous tribal that the notion of ritual 266 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: cannibalism and the kind that we're talking about in the 267 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: former there is such a huge relationship between the eater 268 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: and the et you know, as though you are specifically 269 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: soaking up their spirit in some way or like capturing 270 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 2: some spiritual essence with your ancestor communing with your ancestors. Right, 271 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: and in what we're talking about, it is that was gone. 272 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 2: That was like totally irrelevant. It's much more about the 273 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 2: notion of that like cure like cures like mentality of 274 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 2: like I'm going to drink your blood. It's gonna fix 275 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: my blood. You know, it's a lot less spiritual. It's 276 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: much more pseudoscientific really, you. 277 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 1: Know, right right, because it was seen as technology rather 278 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: than an article of faith. 279 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 2: And that is not to say that we don't do 280 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: things today like get blood transfusions or liver transfusions that 281 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 2: one could equate to absorbing someone else's fluids or yes, 282 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: or h you know, it's always not the same as 283 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 2: just like you know, munching it down. 284 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: Right. Also, since we are in one of the spookiest 285 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: seasons of the year, I do feel it is appropriate 286 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: for us to mention that despite the scientific pursuit that 287 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: was occurried in Europe, there was also a history of 288 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: using human body parts for magical purposes, like a thieve 289 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: scandle or a hand of glory. 290 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: These candle being a candle made out of human fat, 291 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: right for the tallows, I guess. 292 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, And up until up and into the eighteen eighties, 293 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: these thieves candles were used to stupefy or paralyze a person. 294 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: I myself could see it working because if someone lit 295 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: a human fat candle in front of me, I would 296 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: be shocked, at least for a short time. I would 297 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: be very surprised if anyone did that. And Noel, I 298 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: have a oh man, I've been waiting. I don't know 299 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: if now is the time, but do you want to 300 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: learn about something related to this but equally strange. Yeah, 301 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: it's a little bit sweeter. Have you ever heard of 302 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: the mellified man? 303 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: No, sounds tasty. 304 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: It's a human mummy confection. So this was a legendary 305 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: medicinal substance created by steeping a willing human corpse in honey. 306 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: It dates back to the fifteen hundred, so even kind 307 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: of Around the same time period, a Chinese medical doctor 308 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: named Lee Schizhen was reporting that in Arabia in the 309 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: modern day Middle East, some elderly men nearing the end 310 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: of their lives would mummify themselves in honey, and this 311 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: process mellification would start before they died. So the men 312 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: were seventy or eighty years old, and when they made 313 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: this decision to become a meleified person, they took no 314 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: more food or drink, only bathing and eating a little 315 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: honey till a month after his excreta are nothing but honey, 316 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: and then he dies. They put the body in a 317 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: stone coffin likewise full of honey, with an inscription giving 318 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 1: the year and month of burial. After one hundred years, 319 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: the seals are removed and the confection is used to 320 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: treat wounds and fractures and broken limbs. And you only 321 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: have to do it, kind of like the kings drops. 322 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: You only consume a few drops orally. And the doctor 323 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: says he doesn't know whether or not this is a 324 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: true tale. But for hundreds of years afterwards, the same 325 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: sort of people who are like, you know, what's going 326 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: to cure my epilepsy? Mummy dust, were like, we need 327 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: to find one of these honey corpses. And now even 328 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: now people are still debating whether or not this actually happens. 329 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: And the thing too that I've gotten from several sources, 330 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: just the perspective on this is that it was almost treated. 331 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: It wasn't really magical thinking exactly, and in this period 332 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: because it was backed by that I this renaissance kind 333 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: of ideal of like progress and like you know, medical innovation, 334 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: but it was almost like almost kind of like a 335 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: holistic type thing right where it almost was the way 336 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: you would be. You know, there were a lot of 337 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 2: these herbs and different kind of holistic remedies mixed in. Like, 338 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: for example, even that little quote that I read earlier 339 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: about what kind of body to prepare and like how 340 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: to slice it up and make you know, human jerky 341 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: out of it, it talked about soaking in an aloe. 342 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: An aloe is known to have some kind of holistic 343 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: benefits as far as like calming the stomach or different 344 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: things like that, and in a lot of these recipes 345 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: you see it mixed with things like mirr and peone 346 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: and like all of these kind of things that you 347 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: might see in a little bit more of a holistic 348 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: remedy type of herbalist kind of book. Right, So, I 349 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 2: don't know, it's interesting. There's sort of like a combination there. 350 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: I wonder if it was less the human meat and 351 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: more the you know, tummy calming herbs. 352 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: Right, And there's there's another book we should shout out here. 353 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: Louis Noble, the author of Medicinal Cannibalism in Early Modern 354 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: English Literature and Culture, has also pursued a similar research 355 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: to the book we mentioned earlier, Mummies, cannibals, and vampires. 356 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: And what they keep confirming is that while there were 357 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: some opponents, there were very very few opponents, far fewer 358 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: than you might think. Most people at this time in 359 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: Europe were generally on board with this and did not 360 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: think it was a did not think it was an 361 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: ethical quandary. Yeah, I didn't think it was immoral. 362 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: Well did we talked about We've talked about resurrection men before, 363 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: the idea of digging up bodies in order to perform autopsies, 364 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: because that was very in vogue around this time too, 365 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: the science of you know, breaking down the human bod 366 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: and figuring out how what makes a tick. But that 367 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,719 Speaker 2: was definitely happening as well to get some of these 368 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: specimens right. 369 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I want to go on record here 370 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: saying I think it's time we resurrect resurrection men, at 371 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: least the phrase it's just too cool to let it die. 372 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 2: It should be like a superhero crew. Yeah. 373 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm surprised it's not already a wrestling team or something. 374 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let us know what you think. What 375 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: kind of group would be called resurrection men today in 376 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. 377 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: That is a good question, Ben, And I'd like to know. 378 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 2: There were some other, even more messed up places that 379 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: these bodies were acquired. One in particular was from Ireland, 380 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 2: because the Irish were in Europe pretty severely looked down upon, 381 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: and they, you know, the high falutine European aristocracy probably 382 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: didn't think much of importing some Irish cadavers. In particular, 383 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 2: there was one remedy that I think is fascinating. It 384 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: was a type of moss that would grow on a skull, 385 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 2: and that was a very popular one as well, and 386 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: it was specifically indigenous to Ireland. The moss their skulls 387 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,479 Speaker 2: were plucked from battlefields, battlefields and mass graves, and you know, 388 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: even of course, the people that are going to get 389 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 2: the brunt of this are going to be the poor 390 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: that are in unmarked graves or in like more like 391 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: mass graves. But I don't think it was beneath some 392 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: of these folks that were trying to make a buck 393 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: to maybe even do a little digging up of mark 394 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 2: graves right proper cemeteries. 395 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: And sug makes a great note about this because he 396 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: explains how the Irish were seen, as he said, Noel, 397 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: deeply inferior on some level, and according to him, According 398 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: to the author, corpse medicines were often derived from bodies 399 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: alienated in various ways from ordinary humanity, distant most of 400 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: all from you, whether you were a merchant, a thief, 401 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: and an apothecary, physician, or a patient. And this is 402 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: an incredibly important point, because we're othering things. These people 403 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: thought it would be completely uncivil to eat the skull 404 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: of someone they knew from town. You know what I mean, 405 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: Your fellow neighbor's skull shouldn't be in your king's drops. 406 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: It had to be something exotic, something different, something a 407 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: little a bit less human in the mind of the 408 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: person taking this sort of treatment. And I guess one 409 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: of the questions people have is going to be, well, 410 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: what happened next? How did this fall out of vogue? 411 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't know it was. There was evidence of 412 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: it happening as recently as like the eighteen hundreds. Right, Yes, 413 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: so it didn't just fall right out of vogue. 414 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: No, maybe people just stopped being as open about it. 415 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: And for the fans of the X Files and such 416 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: in the crowd, it evokes this image perhaps of people 417 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: secretly feeding on feeding on blood or human flesh to 418 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: extend their own lifespans or treat various medical conditions. And boy, 419 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: do we have a story for you. On a different show. 420 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: We talked about this in an episode on Modern Empires. 421 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: Here in the US as we record this episode, there 422 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 1: are two different companies that, for a significant amount of money, 423 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: will transfer the blood or the plasma specifically of a 424 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: young person into the body of an older person in 425 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: the hopes of extending their lifespan and the quality of 426 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: their life. Do you remember that one? 427 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Man, it makes me think of that Radiohead song 428 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: on Hail to the Thief, We Suck Young Blood. Yes, 429 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: you know, so that's a creepy one, but yeah, that's 430 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 2: always what I think of it's intense, and you think 431 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: of it as being this thing that like only the elite, 432 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 2: you know, mega evil, like the elitist of the elite, 433 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: most evil, megalomaniacal humans whatever, consider doing. But then when 434 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: you see the way it happened throughout history, you know, 435 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 2: drinking blood from the neck of the body on the 436 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: chopping block. They literally would pay a couple bucks or 437 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: whatever to the execution and get a little cup of 438 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: the blood, you know, warm and fresh, you start to 439 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: realize that, like you know, this is not exclusively in 440 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: the realms of the elite. 441 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: Yet, it's not exclusively confined to the past. In fact, 442 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: in recent years there's been a cannibalism crisis in certain 443 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: African countries wherein people who have people who are albinos, 444 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: who have albinism right where their skin is very very light, 445 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: are being hunted because their body parts are used in 446 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: magical rituals. So this continues, but this is a little 447 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: different because it's not seen as a science. Again, the 448 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: folks who were doing this during the Renaissance period that 449 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about, we can't emphasize this enough, but we 450 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: will try. They did not think they were doing anything bad. 451 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: They did not think they were villains. They thought they 452 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: were early adopters or people who were illuminated to ancient 453 00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: medicinal lore. 454 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 2: Interesting. 455 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: You have to wonder, you know, what was it like 456 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: back then, especially when so many, so many conditions were 457 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: fatal or a death sentence. You can't blame people for 458 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: looking for hope wherever they can find it. 459 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 2: Dude. I saw an amazing image of the day of 460 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: some Egyptian dental work, and it was like holes were 461 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: drilled in the center of the teeth and they were like, 462 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: you know, strung together with bits of like gold wire 463 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 2: or copper or whatever. Really really painful looking. But I 464 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: guess a better alternative than I don't know. It seems 465 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: like you just let the teeth fall out. 466 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: I think I've seen similar photos and it made me 467 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: feel like my mouth hurt just looking at it, you 468 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I experienced vicarious pain. And we 469 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: have to ask, you know, well, it's easy for us 470 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: to distance ourselves from this today. What would you do 471 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: if consuming some sort of tincture or potion or wearing 472 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: some sort of poultice of human flesh could help treat 473 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: a wound faster or more efficiently than modern medical techniques. 474 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: Would you do it? 475 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: Would you want to know the provenance of the I guess, 476 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: the human medicine that you were consuming, or would you 477 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: rather be anonymous? I don't know, Because people do a 478 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: lot of stuff to stay alive. 479 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they really do. They do do this day, and 480 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: I think the placebo effect largely is still in play, 481 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: you know. And despite doctor's sort of quickness to prescribe 482 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 2: something that will cure a particular you know, illness, I 483 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: think a lot of times people get more psychologically dependent 484 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 2: on stuff, especially in the realm of like mental health, 485 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: you know, the idea of antidepressants and anxiety medications. I 486 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: think it's easy to discount how powerful the mind is 487 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: in these situations. You just think that a medicine can 488 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 2: just flip a switch and like make you better. But 489 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: there's still that psychological component that I think is just 490 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: as important as it was when people were you know, 491 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: eating corpse juice, corpse dust, corpse paste. Absolutely, oh, corpse bills. Ah, 492 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: there's still there's probably something like that's still around. And 493 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: we don't want to end on a down note. We 494 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: hope that you found this as darkly fascinating as we 495 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: both did. But let's let's end on something a little 496 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,280 Speaker 2: more conversational and fun and less grim. Noel, what do 497 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 2: you say to some listener mail? 498 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: I love it, Noel, this is this is a short 499 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: one and it's someone pinging us on something that. 500 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: We dinging, pinging, piking pinging with a pe Okay, it's 501 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 3: giving us a little poke like potential yeah or coke 502 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 3: Ryan m. He wrote in and said, Dear Ben Nolan Casey, 503 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: I think it would be monumentously ridiculous and possibly quite 504 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: educational to feature an entire episode exclusively in Richard Nixon impersonations. 505 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 3: I just listened to your episode about Richard Nixon and 506 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: Louis Armstrong, and I would like to challenge you to 507 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: do the aforementioned Nixon episode, so long as it has 508 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 3: nothing to do with Nixon. Thanks guys, keep it ridiculous. 509 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 2: That is just a tall order, man, You know, I was. 510 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: I was on board with that when we throw it 511 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: out there as kind of a joke. But we have 512 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: gotten a lot of feedback that people would like to 513 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: hear us doing all Nixon episode, but I don't think 514 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 2: I'd be able to keep character. 515 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: I think we can do this is my pitch and 516 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: let me know what you think. Ridiculous historians. I think 517 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: we could do a segment, how about that, like ten 518 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: to fifteen minutes. I think we could do that. 519 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 2: We could be a recurring segment. 520 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: It could be a recurring segment. It could even be Okay, 521 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: this is why we love doing this show with each 522 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: other because now we are actively brainstorming live. It could 523 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: just be different impersonations. 524 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: That's true. Or it could be Nixon's commenting on the news, 525 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 2: Nixon's on the Nixon on the news, Nixon's on the news, 526 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 2: Nixon's on the news, because all of our segments have 527 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: to have a literation, and it is Casey on the 528 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: k Nixon's on the news. We're kind of a one trick. 529 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: We got to work with fact Genie, we'rest the work shopping. 530 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 2: Well, we that's that. We've kind of killed that segment. 531 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: We I think we do we do it more than once. 532 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: I think we maybe did it twice. I think we should. 533 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: I think we should go back to the drawing board 534 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: on that, that whole concept. 535 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: So the vision board, you mean, so what uh do 536 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: you have a listener? May Yeah, I definitely call your 537 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: interest to. 538 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: Shorty the subject is spam, but it is not spam, 539 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: but it's about spam and it comes from Benjamin s 540 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 2: And it says, I listened to your spam episode when 541 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: I heard you say that Russian food is gross. All 542 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: that you have to do is try chibori k or chiborik. 543 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm not quite sure c h e b u r 544 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: e k I. I've heard it a couple of different ways, 545 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 2: but he says, this opinion will disappear. Just look it 546 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 2: up if you want to make it yourself. I would 547 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 2: recommend the YouTube channel Life of Boris. Anyway, you guys 548 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: have a great show and I'm always excited for the 549 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: next episode. Well, thank you, Benjamin, and I did look 550 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: it up and it looks delicious. Great. 551 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: It's almost like an impanada. 552 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 2: Almost like like a combination of like exactly ben It's like, 553 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: I'm pie meat pie kind of thing. Let's see what 554 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 2: some of the filling options. 555 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: Are, oh, ground or minced meat, but they also have 556 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,239 Speaker 1: onions added in there. It's a national dish of the 557 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: Tatar people. 558 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: Interesting. 559 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's be for lamb. Oh. 560 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: I love lamb. Yeah, I would go for lamb. But yeah, 561 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: that does look fantastic And I've never heard of that 562 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: one before, but it is very similar to like an 563 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 2: empanada or almost like a perogi or something, or like 564 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: a Pats pasty. You ever had a pasty? Yes? Yes, 565 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: is that a Pennsylvania thing? Certainly in that part of 566 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 2: the country, right, Yeah, probably. 567 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'm always down for turnover meat pie 568 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 1: kind of situation. That's just who I am. I've accepted it. 569 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: I lean into it. Thank you Benjamin, and thank you 570 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: Ryan for writing to us. This concludes our listener mail, 571 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: but not our show. Tune in for our next episode, 572 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: where we explore the fact and fiction behind what may 573 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: well be history's first serial killer. Oh, we should also 574 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: make an announcement, nool, since we're gonna be on the road. 575 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, with our other show stuff. They don't want you 576 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 2: to know. Yeah, we are gonna You're gonna have one sad, 577 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: sad week where you only get one episode out of us. 578 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: But it's gonna be a very special episode. We don't 579 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: want to spoil it, but you may just bust a 580 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: gud laughing. 581 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, man, that's very cooy of you. Yeah, because typically, 582 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: you know, we we were more grove, a grown inducing 583 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: show than a laugh inducing show. And this episode and 584 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 2: my friends is gonna flip that on his head and 585 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 2: that paradigm is going to shift. 586 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: Boy, I hope we're not making too too many promises, 587 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: but I feel confident and all I feel confident in 588 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: they too. 589 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we might even do some Heroin live on the show. 590 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 2: That's another clue. I'm joking. We're not gonna do Heroin, 591 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 2: but it's a it's a it's a clue about what 592 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: the episode might be about. Bust a gut, laughing comedy 593 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: and heroin. 594 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: Just put the you know, put the pieces together, build 595 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 1: a build yourself a conspiracy wall, sort of like Charlie 596 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: Day and that episode of Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and 597 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: in the time, contact your fellow Ridiculous Historians and take 598 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: a guess as to what this episode might be. It's 599 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: gonna be tough to guess. I will personally be surprised 600 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: and impressed if anybody guesses it in advance. But you 601 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: can cooperate with your fellow listeners on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, 602 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 1: especially our community page Ridiculous Historians. 603 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: If you don't want to do any of that stuff, 604 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: you can write us an email at ridiculous at HowStuffWorks 605 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 2: dot Com. Take a cue from your fellow listeners and 606 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: we'll read those things on the show. Awen, lest we forget, 607 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: thanks to superproducer. Guest superproducer. He's just a run of 608 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 2: the mill excellent producer. Oh yeah, and a great guy too, 609 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 2: great guy, Paul decant, Ladies and gentlemen. He doesn't have 610 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: a voice, though he is in fact mute, but he 611 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 2: is really good at hand gestures and headshakes. 612 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: And Paul Paul is MBC mute by choice, by choice exactly. 613 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: We'd also like to thank Alex Williams, who composed our track, 614 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: and of course we'd like to thank our research associates 615 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: Christopher Hasiotis and Eve's Jeff Coat and as we often 616 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: do and closed the show, Nol, I'd like to thank you. 617 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 2: This was illuminating. It was something. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 618 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 619 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,280 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.