1 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: day we bring you insight an analysis into the most 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: episodes at the Bloomberg Law Podcast, on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. The Trump Administration's 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: focus on immigration has crowded the Supreme Court's docket with 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: an unusually large number of immigration cases this term, more 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: than ten percent of the courts docket. Joining me is 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: Kimberly Strawbridge Robinson, Bloomberg Law Supreme Court reporter Kimberly. Last week, 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: the Court agreed to take up another immigration case, this 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: involving crime as well as immigration. Tell us about it well. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: The Supreme Court has taken up a number of these 13 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: so called crimmigration cases. That is, cases that touch both 14 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: on crime and immigration areas of the law that really 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: intersect quite a bit. Now, the issue here is what 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: crimes can bar these really long time non citizens from 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: relief from deportation, And in particular, the question is where 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: that individual was convicted under a state law that prohibits 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: some actions that would be disqualifying for that relief and 20 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: some that are not does that ambiguity preclude the immigrant 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: from seeking relief from deportation. So tell us a little 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: bit about this case in particular. Put in context. Well, 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: the man here has actually been in the United States 24 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: since the nineteen nineties and enter the country illegally, but 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: has been living in the country since that time, has 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: raised a family here, but was convicted under a Kansas 27 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: law for using a fake Social Security number to get employment. Now, 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: this is the kind of person for which relief would 29 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: generally be considered from deportation, but the Kansas law does 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: have that kind of ambiguity where it's not clear if 31 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: all of the actions would disqualify them from that relief. 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: And so the lower courts are really split on that question, 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court has decided to take it up. 34 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: So this is the ninth immigration case the justices are 35 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: going to consider this term. How does that compare to 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: a typical docket. Well, that's really a very immigration heavy docket. 37 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: And so we've seen in past years, especially recently in 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court really taking on a lot of these 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: immigration cases just like this one that are really technical 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: because the immigration laws are now very technical laws. But 41 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: typically they take up about three to five cases. So 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: nine cases is quite a lot, especially given the facts 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court is still adding cases to its 44 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: docket this term. So we'll see how the court sorts 45 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: out these issues. But it's notable just the number of 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: immigration topics that they're tackling this here. What are the 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: range of issues in these immigration cases. Well, they really, 48 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, run the gamut of immigration laws. So we 49 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: have laws like this that are very technical that are 50 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: going to be you know, applicable only to a few individuals, 51 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: and then we have other laws that are going to 52 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: be applicable in different kinds of immigration cases, and those 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: really deal with how much courts can review lower immigration decisions. 54 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: This is an issue that we've seen play out in 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: things like the travel ban, where the Trump administration said, 56 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, federal courts don't have a role to play 57 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: in these kinds of immigration questions. So really quite the 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: spread of immigration cases this term is the immigration heavy 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: docket reflective of President Trump's crackdown on immigration or change 60 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: in immigration policy. Well, that probably depends on who you ask. 61 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: People who are critical of the presidents say that him 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: and his administration have really been focusing on enforcement of 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: immigration laws and using creative ways to try and deport 64 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: more people and to try to prohibit or encourage people 65 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: not to try to come to the United States. On 66 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: the other hand, people who are supportive of the Trump 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: administration say that it's really the federal courts who are 68 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: stepping into immigration law in a way that they shouldn't, 69 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: and they really bring Congress for failing to kind of 70 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: fill in some of these more technical questions and leaving 71 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: courts to feel like they have to step in instead. 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: There must be more litigation though in the immigration area, 73 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: with all the rule changes and policy changes, there certainly is, 74 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: and so, as I said, it's probably a matter of 75 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: who you ask, but in reality it's probably a little 76 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: bit true both sides. In your article, you quoted from 77 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: Andrew Arthur, a resident fellow in Law and Policy at 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: the Center of Immigration Studies, and he said that immigration 79 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: has always been a hot button issue, right, And you know, 80 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: I think what he was referring to is the fact that, 81 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: you know, these immigration cases often tend to be emotional cases, 82 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: and so there's something that often are very high profile. 83 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: Earlier this term, the Supreme Court heard the litigation over 84 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: deferred deportation for dreamers, which again is a very emotional 85 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: matter even though it is a legal question that's before 86 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: the justices. But again, you know, we are seeing more 87 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: immigration cases at the High Court this term. So while 88 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: it's always been a big issue, this term, you know 89 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: it's even bigger. How many cases, if you know, has 90 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General asked the Justice is to take in 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: the immigration arena? Well, I don't have the exact numbers, 92 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: but there are a number of these cases, and in fact, 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: a number of the nine cases that the Supreme Court 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: has already agreed to here have come from the Solicitor 95 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: General's office. And those are really cases where the justices 96 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: are more inclined to take up the case because it 97 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: is a request from the federal government. Usually it involves 98 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: a lower court striking down a part of an immigration 99 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: law or interpreting it in a way that the federal 100 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: government says it will create harm to immigration laws and 101 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: to its enforcement and ultimately to national security. The data 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: case got a lot of publicity. Which way the justices 103 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: seem to be leaning in that case. Well, it's always 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: really hazardous to try and guess what the justices are 105 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: going to do, and then when you do it's always 106 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 1: goes the other way, but at least for moral arguments 107 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,239 Speaker 1: than the questions that the justices asked. There it looked 108 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 1: like a majority of the justices were going to let 109 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: the Trump administration wind down the doctor program, which has 110 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: deferred deportations for hundreds of thousands of Americans or immigrants 111 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: who came to the United States when they were younger. 112 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: So again, it's just a guess, but that was the 113 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: way it would look like it was heading to. Immigration 114 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: cases tend to divide the court ideologically. Well, it really 115 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: depends on what kind of immigration cases you're talking about. 116 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: The cases like DOCCA that involved more policy questions. Yes, 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: they often do divide the justices along ideological lines. And 118 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: you know, that really boils down to how much power 119 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: the justices think that the executive should have and how 120 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: much power they think that the judiciary should have. But 121 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: in these more technical cases, we often see either a 122 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: lot of unanimous decisions or divided opinions that don't follow 123 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: along ideological lines. We've seen that a lot. Actually from 124 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: Trump's first appointee to the Supreme Court, Neil Gorcich, who 125 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: has actually crossed over on some of these commigration issues, 126 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: and ruled in flavor of immigrants with his more liberal colleagues. 127 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: These nine cases and perhaps more, are they likely to 128 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: have an impact on immigration law or are the issues 129 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: refined well? In some cases they are very discrete issues 130 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: that will probably only affect a few people. There really 131 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: aren't that many people who have been living in the 132 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: country for decades and decades who are then convicted under 133 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: these ambiguous statues, like in the cases that I was 134 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: talking about the court recently granting. But there are others 135 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: that are going to have broader effects. And again, these 136 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: are really cases that deal with how much courts can 137 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: be involved in immigration decisions and how much they have 138 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: to stay out of it and just leave it to 139 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: the executive. Thanks Kimberly. That's Kimberly Strong brid Robinson, Bloomberg Law, 140 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court Reporter. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. 141 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 142 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso. 143 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg