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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and.

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Speaker 2: Senator Bob Menendez has been charged with acting as a

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Speaker 2: foreign agent. We have such an interesting show today. First

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Speaker 2: we'll talk to Ruth ben Yacht about how all the

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Speaker 2: criminals the republic Party play right into the authoritarian handbook.

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Speaker 2: Then we'll talk to lawyer Josh Cosco who is suing

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Speaker 2: gun companies in order to enact justice for shooting survivors.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the host of the time of Monsters,

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Speaker 2: the Nation's Jeat here.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, frequent flyer, my close personal friend

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Speaker 1: Jeet here.

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Speaker 3: Good to be here in every sense of the word.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're so happy to have you. Un fucking believable.

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Speaker 1: What is happening right now? I'm going to read you

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Speaker 1: a tweet Dave Wasserman, you may know him as mister

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Speaker 1: I've seen enough.

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Speaker 4: He is a pollster.

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Speaker 1: This is his tweet which if I were a Republican

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Speaker 1: donor or member of Congress, this would.

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Speaker 4: Make my blood run cold.

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Speaker 1: The reality may be that no r can get to

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Speaker 1: two seventeen.

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Speaker 3: That's quite a tweet, which I think. I think mathematically

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Speaker 3: he's exactly right. In the sense of the candidates running

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Speaker 3: for the position. There is enough like sort of never

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Speaker 3: Scaliese people and enough never Jordan people that yeah, you

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Speaker 3: don't get to the two seventeen that you need, So

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Speaker 3: mathematically there can be no speaker. They cannot be a.

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Speaker 1: SAP's right, well, there can be McHenry forever. So the

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Speaker 1: story here is the Republicans in the House kicked out

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Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy under the arm of.

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Speaker 4: My man, and he is neither mine nor man. Matt Gates.

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Speaker 1: He opened the gates of hell, he got rid of

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Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy, and he left his caucus in nowhere land.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that is exactly what happened. I mean, I

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Speaker 3: think it's worth thinking about structurally, like why they can't

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Speaker 3: get to seventeen. I always emphasizes, like Nancy Pelosi had

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Speaker 3: a smaller majority than they have now. Not only was

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Speaker 3: she able to like get elected Speaker and hold on

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Speaker 3: to her position and not get kicked out, she was

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Speaker 3: actually able to like legislate in a very fractured caucus

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Speaker 3: with like you know, real political disagreements always like find

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Speaker 3: the point of agreement that everyone could come around to

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Speaker 3: and do the very essential skill which my girls are

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Speaker 3: in grade three and learn I have been learning for

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Speaker 3: the last few years. Counting. Addition, just be able to

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Speaker 3: like like figure out like do I ask you have

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Speaker 3: the votes for this? Or do I not have the

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Speaker 3: votes for this, which is a much rarer skill than

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Speaker 3: one would think. One can govern as long as you

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Speaker 3: don't have like a caucus full of like really crazy people.

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Speaker 3: I think the core problem, the further problem I think structurally,

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Speaker 3: which I don't think we're talking about, is fundraising. One

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Speaker 3: reason why Nancy Pelosi could hold things together was she's

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Speaker 3: just she's just a monster. She still is, you know,

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Speaker 3: she still has monster of fundraising and very useful for

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Speaker 3: members of Congress. Well, it's happening about the Democratic on

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Speaker 3: the Republican side, but you know, you get people who

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Speaker 3: are like very good at working outside that as a

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Speaker 3: stem and you know, fundraising through social media appeal and

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Speaker 3: getting small donors. But on the Democratic side that people

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Speaker 3: are really good at that, AOC being a primary example.

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Speaker 3: They're pretty responsible. Like there's still party people and still

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Speaker 3: understanding you have to work with in the party. On

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Speaker 3: the Republican side, you have people who can fundraise and

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Speaker 3: not be dependent on the speaker. And you get more

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Speaker 3: fundraising if you stand up for the speaker because a

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Speaker 3: problgram base is trained with this narrative that the establishment

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Speaker 3: is bad. You know, whoever the speaker is, they want

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Speaker 3: to like corral people for corrupt purposes. And here's that

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Speaker 3: heroic Matt Gates. There are some pictures of him with

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Speaker 3: the young women, but.

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Speaker 4: The FBI had an investigation into him.

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Speaker 1: They decline to press charges, which I guess in this

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Speaker 1: Republican party is as good as having never had an

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Speaker 1: FBI investigation into you, Bob.

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Speaker 3: Now, you know, like because he is the the underdog,

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Speaker 3: the maverick, the guy who's standing up to the established friend.

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Speaker 3: He's getting like a ton of money, right, He's doing

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Speaker 3: like fundraising all through this and becomes the big hero

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Speaker 3: of the base by doing stuff that is destructive. So

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Speaker 3: basically you have a fundraising model and a political model

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Speaker 3: that is just works against governance the like leave idels aside,

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Speaker 3: just works against the basic function of turning on the lights,

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Speaker 3: you know, opening the door, turning on the lights, like

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Speaker 3: getting the day started. They cannot sees all of that

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Speaker 3: as a deep state plot. You know, like it's a

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Speaker 3: deep state plot to have government.

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Speaker 4: Yes, to have a government at all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a very bad situation. And to have like,

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Speaker 3: you know, one of the two major parties and the

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Speaker 3: party that happens the whole by a slim majority of

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Speaker 3: the House literally structurally incapable of governing at a time

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Speaker 3: which you know, like I know we're not gonna talk

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Speaker 3: about this, but which like very serious stuff is happening

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Speaker 3: in the world right, like, like very serious life and

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Speaker 3: death issues are happening at places like Ukraine and and

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Speaker 3: in Gaza. You know, like it's actually good to have government.

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Speaker 3: This is my bottom line. I actually believe it is

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Speaker 3: good to have government. I am not an anarchist. I

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Speaker 3: have friends that are anarchists, but certainly I think my

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Speaker 3: anarchist friends don't want whatever the hell it is about

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Speaker 3: pizza stag. It's bad that you have one party that

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Speaker 3: cannot govern. And the other point I would make is

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Speaker 3: I kind of wish Democrats would make that point a

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Speaker 3: bit more.

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Speaker 4: Oh man, me too.

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Speaker 1: So right now we are in this republican Fuckeray. You

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Speaker 1: got Steve Scullies, who the strike against him is that

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Speaker 1: he compared himself to David Duke without the baggage and

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Speaker 1: spoke at a white nationalist convention and is very much

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Speaker 1: not on the right side of history when it comes

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Speaker 1: to not being an enormous white supremacist.

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Speaker 4: And you have him, so that's one side.

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Speaker 1: But he is actually like a Republican sort of more

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Speaker 1: despite his white nationalist forays, He's actually more of a

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Speaker 1: traditional Republican than the guy he's running again. So I

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Speaker 1: would like to take a moment to think about that

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Speaker 1: for a second. And you know, we had a guest

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Speaker 1: on here, really smart guy, Dana Milbank, who was saying

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Speaker 1: that actually what you see with this Republican leadership contest

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Speaker 1: is the party's move to the right. So you know,

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Speaker 1: Scalice would have been just an inconceivable Speaker of the

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Speaker 1: House ten years ago. Like that, every decade the party

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Speaker 1: gets further and further to the right. But then Jordan,

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Speaker 1: who has thought of as the insurgent, who has worked

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Speaker 1: very hard to try not to get the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: election certified, big.

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Speaker 4: Election liar, that guy, he can't get the votes.

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Speaker 1: And there's a lot of really bad behavior on both sides.

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Speaker 1: And there are looking at a list here from Hallie

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Speaker 1: Talbot from CNN who has listed the undecided big mads

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Speaker 1: in the caucus, which includes some of the people you

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Speaker 1: would think including Andy Biggs, a person who has also

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Speaker 1: had four ways into why nationalism, and Ken Buck, who

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Speaker 1: was actually a little bit more principled than a lot

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Speaker 1: of those guys. So they are big mad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean the party has definitely moved to

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Speaker 3: the right, but it's been happening, as you unicated, for

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Speaker 3: a long time, and I think there's you know, like

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Speaker 3: some very good discussions about the sort of roots of

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Speaker 3: all this. That a Scotch Ball who's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: terrific political sociologist at Harvard did an interview with Political

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Speaker 3: which she was pointing towards the Tea Party is a

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Speaker 3: big inflection point. But I think actually, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: my disagreement with that is I actually think Nuke Gingridge

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Speaker 3: was the you know, like an equally important inflection point, right.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I agree, Nu, ging Gridge was the moment.

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Speaker 3: I think if you look at what happened to Gingridge,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's worth recalling because a lot of

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Speaker 3: what we're seeing now was innovated then, including the use

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Speaker 3: of the government shutdown as a tactic when Republicans control

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Speaker 3: the House and Democrats have the presidency. Ging Ridge, he

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Speaker 3: wrote to Power, wrote to becoming the speaker through like

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Speaker 3: riling up the most right wing members of his caucus

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Speaker 3: against the so called corrupt establishment. Who are people who

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Speaker 3: were like willing to make deals with Dilkminten or even

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Speaker 3: willing to make deals with George W. Bush and side

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Speaker 3: things like the Americans with Disability Act. And so there's

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Speaker 3: a real faction in the nineteen nineties who are basically

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Speaker 3: like loveries of militia. I don't know if you remember

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Speaker 3: these these characters, but you know they were the ones

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Speaker 3: who saw Ruby Ridge and Waco, Texas as that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: as heroic Americans, you know, like standing up to the

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Speaker 3: evils of the federal government. Ging Ridge deliberately riled those

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Speaker 3: people up and you know, use the power of agitating

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Speaker 3: the base to like scare this existing Republican establishment, gemonize them,

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Speaker 3: get them out, and then he became speaker. But then

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Speaker 3: what he ended up with was, you know, like a

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Speaker 3: caucas he couldn't control because it included like, you know,

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Speaker 3: these riled up French characters who could use all the

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Speaker 3: anger that they had that Gingridge had harnessed and use

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Speaker 3: it against him, and then he, like you know, repeatedly

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Speaker 3: had problems of like serve governance. So so the structure

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Speaker 3: has been in place and built since the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 3: and we see it replicated time and again. You know,

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Speaker 3: I think the only way to kind of break this

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Speaker 3: structure is it becomes a political issue and it becomes

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Speaker 3: not just treated as it is in the mainstream media

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Speaker 3: like oh, look at those clowns in Congress, they're clouding again,

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Speaker 3: and actually becomes what it is, which is that you

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Speaker 3: have one party that is functionally unable to govern and

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Speaker 3: it is very much in contrast to the other party.

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Speaker 3: And again, I would want to have a democratic leadership

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Speaker 3: that really makes this the issue that really like you know,

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Speaker 3: says it's not the maga Republicans or the extreme Republicans.

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Speaker 3: The Republican Party itself is functionally unable to govern, and

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Speaker 3: you know, like, we'll give you a party that can

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Speaker 3: govern and it be as ideologically diverse and will find

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Speaker 3: this sort of median points. So if if you're more

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Speaker 3: moderate voter and you want a party that can negotiate

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Speaker 3: but also work with different factions, well there's only one

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Speaker 3: party that does that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and it's not even close.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very stark difference. I think domestically it's

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Speaker 3: a bad enough. I think the chances of another government

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Speaker 3: shutdown are like huge, right, oh, no question. And then

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Speaker 3: there's also you know, like stuff that's happening in the world.

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Speaker 3: And again, you know, I mean, one can have disagreements

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Speaker 3: with Biden about Ukraine, about handling Israel Palestine, but on

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Speaker 3: some level you have to believe that the United States

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Speaker 3: needs a government, so it actually needs like.

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Speaker 1: I keep saying this, but I want to say it

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Speaker 1: because I'm not laughing because it's funny.

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Speaker 4: I'm laughing because it's horrific.

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Speaker 3: Is it. Yeah? Yeah, So so you actually need ambassadors

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Speaker 3: to these countries, right, right, And.

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Speaker 1: That's a real fucking problem that we're having now, which

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Speaker 1: is there's no ambassador to Kutar, there's no ambassador to Israel.

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Speaker 1: All of these military posts are empty. You can't run

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Speaker 1: a country this way, which is part of the point, right.

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Speaker 3: You need that, you know, like a military where the

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Speaker 3: officer class knows that there's a regular accepted pathway of

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Speaker 3: like going up the ranks, and that you know, as

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Speaker 3: people who get old and retire or move on. If

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Speaker 3: you follow all the rules, you will arise and not have.

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Speaker 1: Senator from Alabama who lives in Florida keep you from

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Speaker 1: getting your job.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: These are all like important things, and like, I think

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Speaker 3: the people who follow this program understand this, and you know,

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Speaker 3: like you know, you and I understand it. But like

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Speaker 3: to the degree that this is like being a message

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Speaker 3: that's getting out there, I'm not sure about that. I

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Speaker 3: know what you think.

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Speaker 1: I think this is absolutely a democratic messaging problem. The

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Speaker 1: truth is one party is normal and the other party

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Speaker 1: is completely batchet and they want to destroy the federal government.

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Speaker 1: And I mean I interviewed Randy Wineingarden yesterday. Andy Winegarden

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite people. She's the head of the Teachers' union.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if she's the head of the

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Speaker 1: idea for the UTA or she's stopped, you know, and

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Speaker 1: she's taking a break. But the point is she has

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Speaker 1: been demonized and Mike Pompeo made threats against her. And

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Speaker 1: you know what she said, which is so true, is

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Speaker 1: that these people want to end public schools because they

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Speaker 1: don't like the idea of the government doing for people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, I mean that's exactly right. In some

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Speaker 3: ways what has to understand for them to somebody be

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Speaker 3: this is paid off. We kind of look at this

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Speaker 3: freak show. But you know, if your goal is actually

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Speaker 3: the fake, like every red the stunts at all, to

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Speaker 3: destroy Steve Benda likes to say, the administrative state, then actually,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're kind of winning. They're getting what they want.

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Speaker 3: And you know, like I think if it were put

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Speaker 3: to the American public that this is actually what they want,

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Speaker 3: It's not like lower taxes, you know, like a more

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Speaker 3: streamlined government or things that you know, like a white

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Speaker 3: spot of the population right agree with, is actually like

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Speaker 3: government dysfunction and no government that would clarify a lot

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Speaker 3: of things for voters.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right.

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Speaker 1: Democrats have real trouble when they get this opportunity to

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Speaker 1: message being able to do it.

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Speaker 4: And I think part of.

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Speaker 1: It is this fundamental belief that because Democrats are the

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Speaker 1: good guys, they don't have to sell what they're doing

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Speaker 1: the way Republicans do. And I think that's ultimately really wrong.

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Speaker 3: I think that's part of it. I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: the other part of it is that Biden has decided

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Speaker 3: to go along with a kind of mixed message of

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Speaker 3: like saying, you know some mega Republicans that are bad,

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Speaker 3: but you know, like I'm a guy who's worked with

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Speaker 3: Republicans before, I work with Starthurman to appeal to those

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Speaker 3: voters that are still nostalgic that it is a sort

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Speaker 3: of like restorationist vision, like you know, we can turn

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Speaker 3: back the clock and like, you know, go back to

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Speaker 3: like I don't know what, like nineteen eighty two or whatever,

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Speaker 3: or like nineteen seventy eight pip Onneil would go have

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Speaker 3: a beer with Ronald Reagan and things were good, and

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Speaker 3: then we were all little children and happy. Like I

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Speaker 3: don't think that I don't think it was that good

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Speaker 3: to be good with, and I really don't think that

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Speaker 3: we're ever going to go back. It's unwillingness to give

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Speaker 3: up that illusion that that the older type of politics

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Speaker 3: have we returned to. You have to have people that

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Speaker 3: like see things. Clearly, there's a generational divide. I mean,

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Speaker 3: one sees that in the way that people like Gretia

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Speaker 3: Whitmer is governing, that the hardened Democrats who have been

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Speaker 3: in the sort of trenches of these like purple states

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Speaker 3: and have seen you know how extreme. The Republicans can

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Speaker 3: be like they don't want to go back to that.

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Speaker 3: They think, like we get a narrow majority, we govern

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Speaker 3: and we give our people what they want.

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Speaker 4: Like in Minnesota.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I want to ask you, though,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push back for a minute.

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Speaker 4: So I have this theory about Biden.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons why Biden has continually overperformed at

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Speaker 1: all his elections is because the voters are older than

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Speaker 1: we think they are, and they vote in a sort

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Speaker 1: of older way than we think they do. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: I think that these Republicans need to lose until they

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Speaker 1: understand that they're anti democratic ideas are a shanda, as

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Speaker 1: we say in Judaism. There's no place for anti democracy

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Speaker 1: in the United States of America. But there are older

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Speaker 1: people who have a sort of like fantasy of harmony

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Speaker 1: and that playing on that is actually good for good

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Speaker 1: electoral politics. Yes, no discuss you have twenty seconds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there are some truth to that, But

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Speaker 3: I think it's the situations in flux. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I think those older voters are getting older here and

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Speaker 3: I think there's a generational divide, and I think going

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Speaker 3: to the next election Biden's real weaknesses among young voters.

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Speaker 3: They want more fight, Yes, they.

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Speaker 4: Want more fight.

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Speaker 3: Jeet here, thank you always great.

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Speaker 2: Ruth Bengiatt is the author of Strongman Us Leading the

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Speaker 2: President and the publisher of the Substack Lucid.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 5: Ruth, thank you glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about what you see

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Speaker 1: going on right now. The fundamental thing that I think

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Speaker 1: is so interesting, which you write about and talk about,

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Speaker 1: is this idea that there is a real that we

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Speaker 1: really have one party that no longer believes in the

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Speaker 1: fundamental tenets of democracy.

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Speaker 4: Can you talk about that.

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Speaker 5: It's very shocking and it's a process, and it's been

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Speaker 5: going on since. I mean, some people say Trump was

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Speaker 5: able to kind of capture the party because it was

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Speaker 5: ready to be captured by an authoritarian. It was already

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Speaker 5: moving toward a kind of a liberal political culture, and

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Speaker 5: the Tea Party was a big symptom. But Trump really

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Speaker 5: accelerated that by being the charismatic demagogue and you know,

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Speaker 5: shifting the political culture of the GOP to authoritarian methods

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Speaker 5: and philosophy and the leader party relationship that he imposed,

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Speaker 5: where loyalty was what mattered. Not expertise and no internal dissent,

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Speaker 5: you know, follow him or else. Intimidation that kind of

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Speaker 5: accelerated it and prepared it to participate in his attempt

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Speaker 5: to overthrow the government and the election. So it's been

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Speaker 5: a long process, but now we are in a stage

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Speaker 5: where the GOP is an autocratic party quite openly, and

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Speaker 5: its allies are other autocratic parties and governments around the world.

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Speaker 5: It's quite open about that too. And it's the people

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Speaker 5: who are finding favor the people who are rising to

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Speaker 5: the top, as we saw in the GOP debates and

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Speaker 5: the selection of the House Speaker, they are people who

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Speaker 5: are believing in violence, who are identifying themselves as extremists,

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Speaker 5: who don't believe in transparency, accountability, or any other democratic principles.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting and important point there,

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Speaker 1: because this is sort of Trumpism continues, right, Yes, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess it started before Trump, it sounds like from

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Speaker 1: what you're saying, and that makes the most sense. But

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Speaker 1: this kind of continuation of it is really this obsession

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Speaker 1: with the kind of violence.

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Speaker 4: Talk to me about that.

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Speaker 5: Really what's happened is the GOP has kind of internalized

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Speaker 5: the principles of the coup. What is a coup. It's

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Speaker 5: a violent strike at a government. It says that we

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Speaker 5: don't believe anymore in democratic methods of transitions of power.

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Speaker 5: And Matt Gates said this at the Iowa State ferries.

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Speaker 5: It only forces will bring change to Washington. And so

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Speaker 5: violence becomes a kind of dogma. And that's also why

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Speaker 5: you see number two contender Ron DeSantis, who really the

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Speaker 5: guy is obsessed with violence. I mean, he loses no

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Speaker 5: opportunity to talk about violence. And it's not just that,

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Speaker 5: you know, he says, we're going to be slitting throats

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Speaker 5: on day one. This is you know, gangster talk. This

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Speaker 5: is how do Terte talks or terrorists talk. But you know,

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Speaker 5: he just like it's the little things that show you

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Speaker 5: that he feels he can only get ahead by his

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Speaker 5: spousing violence. When Trump was being arraigned and the reporter asked, DeSantis,

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Speaker 5: you know, what were you doing?

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Speaker 4: Did you see it?

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Speaker 5: Did you watch it? And he said he Now, he's

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Speaker 5: a governor of a really large state. He has lots

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Speaker 5: to do. What does he say? He said, I was

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Speaker 5: overseeing an execution.

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Speaker 4: So it's just this.

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Speaker 5: Constant recall to violence, and like they're drunk on the

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Speaker 5: power of being able to have the authority to order

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Speaker 5: violence or encourage violence. So that's what I'm most worried

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Speaker 5: about as a constitutive party of the j.

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Speaker 4: OP and a scholar. Will you back up to tell

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Speaker 4: the story of sort of.

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Speaker 1: How you realized that this thing you studied was about

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Speaker 1: to sort of become the central tenant of one of

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Speaker 1: our political parties.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so, you know, I was a garden variety academic.

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Speaker 5: Let's say, I was already writing per CNN on like

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Speaker 5: historical things. So I had started to do like, you know,

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Speaker 5: opinion pieces. But I was a scholar of fascism and propaganda.

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Speaker 5: And then Trump came on the scene and it all

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Speaker 5: seemed so familiar from my studies of Mussolini. And again

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Speaker 5: I wrote a book on film propaganda, so the visual

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Speaker 5: was important. So I saw him doing the loyalty oath.

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Speaker 5: And then the big red flag was his speech in

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Speaker 5: January twenty sixteen that he could stand on Fifth Avenue

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Speaker 5: and shoot someone and he wouldn't lose any followers. This

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Speaker 5: is fascism because he was saying he was identifying himself

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Speaker 5: with violence, saying he approved of violence. He was personally

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Speaker 5: capable of violence, but he would also be.

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Speaker 4: Loved if he committed violence.

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Speaker 5: Yes, that led me to change my professional life. I

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Speaker 5: had a book I was working on that was an

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Speaker 5: academic book, and I put it aside and I started

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Speaker 5: to I wanted to warn the American public of what

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Speaker 5: was going on and that it could happen anywhere. And

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Speaker 5: that was the genesis of deciding to write Strong Men,

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Speaker 5: which goes over one hundred years of authoritarian history but

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Speaker 5: has Trump in it, so Americans could see that this

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Speaker 5: has a history and has a context.

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Speaker 4: Such a good point.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about when we talk about this

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Speaker 1: idea that criminals are needed in government if the goal

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Speaker 1: is an authoritarian rule, what does that mean exactly.

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Speaker 5: It's so strange because the concepts come from the corruption

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Speaker 5: chapter of Strong Men, and it's like it's like the

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Speaker 5: GOP is just bringing it to life. Incredible. So, if

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Speaker 5: you are a party that's becoming autocratic and you are

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Speaker 5: depending on corruption, which means both like defrauding people like

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Speaker 5: George Santos is the embodiment of part of the GOP.

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Speaker 5: It also means lying to the public institutionalized lying, where

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Speaker 5: you have lying as dogma. That's the big lie and

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Speaker 5: all the other things. If that's how you're going to

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Speaker 5: operate and you're going to depend on that, then you

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Speaker 5: need special kind of people with criminal skills as you're elite.

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Speaker 5: So there's a kind of renewal of elites that goes on.

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Speaker 5: And again this is not just us. Like in Modi's

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Speaker 5: India in twenty nineteen, over a dozen legislators, like sitting

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Speaker 5: parliamentarians had open like criminal charges against them, including murder.

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Speaker 5: So and there are many other examples that give in

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Speaker 5: my book. So I've been watching this with the GOP

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Speaker 5: and who is you know? So there were people, for example,

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Speaker 5: people who participate in January sixth were encouraged to run

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Speaker 5: for office by Trump, or people who Another form of

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Speaker 5: corruption is when you obstruct justice, and that's like Jim Jordan.

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Speaker 5: He didn't want any investigation of molesters, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 5: So the GOP now rewards people who are lawless or

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Speaker 5: encourage lawlessness, and that's been like a renewal of elites,

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Speaker 5: and it's terrible because the qualities that they want in

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Speaker 5: a politician. That's also why the GOP candidates pose with

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Speaker 5: assault rifles. You either have to be violent or corrupt

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Speaker 5: or both.

438
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 4: It's so amazing.

439
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm struck by is just

440
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: how good these people are at winning the information wars.

441
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean, talk to me about that. Some of the

442
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: stuff is so simple, but it works so well for them.

443
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 4: It does.

444
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 5: They are very skilled, and it's not just the Fox

445
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 5: media machine. It's the individual politicians who kind of do

446
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 5: this naturally. And in a sense, if if you have

447
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 5: decided to just institutionalize lawing in the party, then you

448
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 5: have to become information warriors. Of course we can poke

449
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 5: fun at Mardrie, Taylor Green and others, but she's a

450
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 5: very skilled information warrior. She knows what to say and

451
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 5: how to say it, and she uses the classic techniques

452
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 5: of smearing, innuendo, conspiracy theories and Jim Jordan's surprisingly people

453
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 5: don't think highlie of him for many good reasons, but

454
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 5: he's surprisingly skilled at defending Trump, which is also a

455
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 5: sign of this. You must defend the leader. There are

456
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 5: rules for these things. It's like they're innately good, but

457
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 5: that's at it because they are invested now in lying

458
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 5: as a party method of getting to power.

459
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: I know we've talked about this before, but now I'm

460
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: so stressed out.

461
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 4: Will we talk about this?

462
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: I get very stressed at I mean, how do we

463
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: stop America from being the Philippines. It strikes me that

464
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: one of the ways we would be so much safer

465
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: is if we had a coalition government, which we don't.

466
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 5: That's a huge problem that we've just got these two

467
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 5: giant parties and so the people, the Republicans, who they

468
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 5: don't identify anymore, they don't really have a place to go.

469
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 5: And but the other part the reason they feel they

470
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 5: don't have any place to go is the effectiveness of

471
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 5: right wing media saying that Biden is a leftist, that

472
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 5: we're all leftists, like I'm on you know, I'm on

473
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 5: professor watch list. That thing of turning what is that?

474
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 4: The Charlie Kirk one.

475
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 5: Yes ibe was put on there and it says, not

476
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 5: only for all of us on there, you're not only

477
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 5: a radical leftist, you're also trying to like indoctrinate students

478
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 5: into your like freedom. That's the polarization stuff. So in fact,

479
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 5: there are lots of like moderates, and yet the people

480
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 5: who don't identify anymore with Republicans are influenced so that

481
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 5: they said, I'll never vote for Democrats and then they

482
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 5: don't vote at all, perhaps and that helps the Republicans too.

483
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: So that's one big problem.

484
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 5: I think now is the time to everybody needs to

485
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 5: reach out to people they know, including vets or people

486
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 5: who care about national security, people who don't vote but

487
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 5: should vote, and really use outcome arguments I call them, like,

488
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 5: political violence is not good for business if you know

489
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 5: business people. Political violence is not good for national security

490
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 5: if you know you know those people in those sectors.

491
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 5: We have to all reach out to those we know

492
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 5: and do bridge building when there's lots of bridge building

493
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 5: organizations in America. But we can do this too. That's

494
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 5: one thing that we can do in our lives.

495
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because it's like Nan Yahoo

496
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 1: and the far right Republicans which is basically all of them,

497
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: but Tommy Tuberbil in this case both it's very critical

498
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 1: of the military, feeling the military is too woke and

499
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: not you know, racist, sexist, discriminatory enough, even though the

500
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: military has through combat seen how important it is to

501
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: have leaders that look like the people on the ground.

502
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: You know, they've actually really like lived the importance of diversity.

503
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: But Republicans have been very involved in criticizing the military,

504
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: and Tommy Tuberville has stopped all military appointments because of

505
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: choice talk to us about that.

506
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 5: I think that's partially bs his excuse. I have a

507
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 5: tweet that when viral it's still going on, that this

508
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 5: is an attempt at sabotage and it has to be

509
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 5: seen in a broader optic together with Rand Paul, who's

510
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 5: very pro putent, his blockage of diplomatic appointments, so that

511
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 5: the US remains singularly unprepared militarily, national security, diplomatically, and

512
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 5: its influence is curbed in the world. So when we

513
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 5: talk about corruption, there are some people commit corruption by

514
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 5: doing you know, illegal things, and other people out obstruct

515
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 5: processes from happening. And that's what those two are doing.

516
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 5: So holding up so many military appointments, he knows what

517
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 5: the outcome is and all, and that Millie has talked

518
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 5: about it. It's very obvious. But the goal is to

519
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 5: help America's adversaries who are autocratic by blunting the force

520
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 5: of America in the world. And it's like it's a decapitation,

521
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 5: Like we don't have ambassadors in a lot of very

522
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 5: essential places, including many places in the Middle East right now,

523
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 5: and we don't have heads of important military positions. This

524
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 5: is sabotage and this is why I some people think

525
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 5: this exaggerated, but they are saboteurs, and the goal is

526
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 5: to take down American democracy, not only internally but as

527
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 5: a force in the world. And it's exactly what the

528
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 5: Chinese and Russians wanted in their joint statements in the

529
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 5: fall of twenty twenty one when they didn't opid together

530
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 5: the ambassadors and then Putin and Chi and they said

531
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 5: we've got to take down essentially said we've got to

532
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 5: take down American influence and that's their quote multipolarity, and

533
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 5: Tubberville and Paul are contributing to this. That's really how

534
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 5: I see it.

535
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: Jesus, with this Israel conflict, how does this autocratic Republican

536
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: party figure in, Well, maybe it doesn't.

537
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 5: What we can see. And I just published this morning

538
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 5: a substack, my substack Lucid, an essay on Nitaya, who's

539
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 5: kind of what's his destiny going to be and how

540
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 5: his autocratic overreach trying to have the that's called the

541
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 5: judicial coup, contributed to an atmosphere that led Hamas feel

542
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 5: it was propitious to attack, which is not to not

543
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 5: blame Hamas for the atrocities, but to show that it's

544
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 5: a lesson that Americans should take heed of. And what

545
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 5: happens when you have somebody who only cares about staying

546
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 5: out of jail, which is the whole reason for N'taya,

547
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 5: who's actions for a year almost and is something he

548
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 5: has in common with Trump.

549
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: Can you say more?

550
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 5: Nitagnanfum thought he had won the autocrats lottery because he

551
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 5: was re elected as Prime Minister in December twenty two.

552
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 5: Me too, with an ongoing corruption trial and multiple charges

553
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 5: of fraud, bribery and more. This this is like again

554
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 5: it since strong man. It's so crazy and the first

555
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 5: thing you need to do, so you've got to get

556
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 5: back into office if you have indictments, and then you

557
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 5: need to fix the judiciary so you can't have to

558
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 5: go to jail so nothing happens to you. So that

559
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 5: was the reason he did the judicial reform, and it

560
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 5: caused massive protests, including participation of military and security elites.

561
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: And what we know from studies of how autocrats can

562
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 5: fail is when military and security elites start to turn

563
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 5: against you, that's really a problem for the autocrat and

564
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 5: that was happening to Nitanyahu, So it left Israel much

565
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 5: more divided and weaker. And yet he wouldn't give up

566
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 5: an he allied with these right wing fanatics like Ben

567
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 5: Vere who fanned the flames.

568
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: So that's the lesson.

569
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 5: So so my piece today that published just what could

570
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 5: his death destiny b And he's not really the right

571
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 5: person to solve the problem, the structural problems that Israel

572
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 5: has because he's a strong man and he's only interested

573
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 5: in himself.

574
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: Really exactly, it's such an interesting I mean, it's such

575
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: a I don't want to say interesting because it's horrendous.

576
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: But we are in such a perilous time in American life,

577
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: and I feel like the international conflicts actually somehow make

578
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: domestic life more perilous.

579
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's all destabilizing because there are links with all

580
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 5: these things. And that's why I'm always trying to stress

581
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 5: that the GOP. You know, when Trump came in the

582
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 5: first time, he had two goals. One was torect democracy

583
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 5: at home, but the other was to detach America from

584
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 5: what's called democratic international order right and put it in

585
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 5: And that's why, Oh, I love I love North Korean

586
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 5: leader love letters. You know, Putin is the greatest she

587
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 5: and he's been trying through all his pronouncements about how

588
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: great were to autocrats are to change the perception and

589
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: get Americans to see Strongman as positive and that will

590
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 5: benefit him and the GOP, even though so Trump's gone now,

591
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 5: but the GOP is continuing this action. So it's all linked.

592
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 5: It's what's happening here is very, very linked to developments

593
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 5: and ontoprasies abroad.

594
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: I wish this wasn't going to be our problem forever,

595
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: and everybod I assume it will be.

596
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 5: I see, I says, learning a lot from what is

597
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 5: going on, and there's a lot of good things happening

598
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 5: in America as a result of reaction to repression.

599
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: From your mouth to God's ear. Thank you so much anytime.

600
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 2: Josh coskop Is, a lawyer, was suing the gun company Rubbington.

601
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: Welcome to Fast Politics, Josh.

602
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 6: Thank you. Mollie.

603
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to get you on the podcast because this

604
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: is what happens. Everybody follows the New York Times. Of

605
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: course we do our own stuff here, but also follow.

606
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: The New York Times.

607
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I did why this

608
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: story has been so interesting to me is because you know,

609
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: we have a lot of senators on this podcast, a

610
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: lot of congress people, and I had Chris Murphy on

611
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 1: a couple times.

612
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 4: And I always ask him about.

613
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: The guns, and he had this hopefulness about it, and

614
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: I was so shocked by that. You know, he had

615
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: a certain sort of hope about changing things. And so

616
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: when I read this story in the New York Times,

617
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 1: the lawyer trying to hold gun makers responsible for mass shootings,

618
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: I knew that I had to get you on this podcast.

619
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: So explain to our listeners how you got here, and

620
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: just a little bit about your story.

621
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 7: Sure, well, I started from a place of total ignorance

622
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 7: about not just anything about guns or the gun industry,

623
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 7: but about the law special protections that the gun industry

624
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 7: has from our government from lawsuits. And I'm a lawyer

625
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 7: but didn't know anything about it. So I was effectively

626
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 7: a clean slate and less than zero. And of course

627
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 7: initially thought of that as a handicap, but there may

628
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 7: have been a silver lining in that. To your point

629
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 7: about Chris Murphy, it probably made me more optimistic than

630
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 7: I had any right to be. But I sort of

631
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 7: stumbled on the case because being in Connecticut, of course,

632
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 7: I wanted to do anything I could to help the families,

633
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 7: and then happened to be getting a ride from somebody

634
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 7: to an airport who knew one.

635
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 6: Of the families. That's how I got the case in

636
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 6: the first place.

637
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 4: We're talking about the families of tell our listeners.

638
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 7: So our farm represented nine families of the shooting. These

639
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 7: are families who lost either children or adult loved ones

640
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 7: and educators. And the nine families that brought the suit

641
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 7: that we represented, this was the only lawsuit filed, so

642
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 7: the balance of the families didn't participate in the lawsuit.

643
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 7: The case that I was involved with was the case

644
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 7: following in the Sandy Hook School shooting.

645
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 6: And those of you were in Connecticut.

646
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 7: And elsewhere, of course everywhere across the country probably knew

647
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 7: where they were when they first heard of the shooting.

648
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 7: And in that case, in that shooting, of course, there

649
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 7: were twenty six people killed, twenty children and six adults.

650
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 7: And in the aftermath of that shooting, as a Connecticut lawyer,

651
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 7: I was consulted on by some of the families sort

652
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 7: of by happenstance, and then to start developing ideas about

653
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 7: how we could go about bringing them some measure of

654
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 7: accountability and closure, if you will, although that's an elusive

655
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 7: thing when you're talking about a mass shooting.

656
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: I want you just to talk a little bit more

657
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 1: about Sandy Hook because it is it was one of

658
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: the sort of bleakest I mean, it's hard to pick

659
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: the bleakest, but one of the bleakest mass shootings. But

660
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: it also happened in a state where you had opportunities

661
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: because of being in Connecticut that you might not have

662
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: in a state like Texas.

663
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 6: Well.

664
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 7: I think one of the sad truths is that there

665
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 7: was also the apparent opportunity for essentially a child, although

666
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 7: adult by legal definition, a child by evolution, to acquire

667
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 7: an AR fifteen.

668
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: But you had legal opportunities that you would not have

669
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: had in a red state.

670
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 7: In Connecticut, we had some advantage that other states might

671
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 7: not have. So this big or some less disadvantage, I

672
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 7: should say, because the federal immunity law, so the law

673
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 7: that we were really confronted with in this case, applies

674
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 7: to all states. So you've got to get through that

675
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 7: regardless of what type of state you're in to bring

676
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 7: a lawsuit in a case of a mass shooting, and

677
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 7: Connecticut has some laws that you can work with, and

678
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 7: the accomplishment I guess in our case was that we

679
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 7: were able to use one of those laws to get

680
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 7: us through this federal protection.

681
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 4: So explain that a little more sure.

682
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 7: All states have consumer protection laws that basically apply to

683
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 7: businesses doing commerce in their state. It's a way for

684
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 7: consumers to take on big corporate interests who are engaged

685
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 7: in wrongdoing in your state. And typically or oftentimes, these

686
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 7: consumer protection statutes are afforded and can be used by

687
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 7: people who are in a business relation. So, for example,

688
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 7: if somebody bought a gun in a state and there

689
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 7: was unethical marketing and it caused somebody to buy a

690
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 7: gun and the gun malfunctioned or the gun went off

691
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 7: or whatever, but the purchaser of the weapon was injured

692
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 7: in some way, the purchaser might be able to bring

693
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 7: a direct cause against the gun company because they were

694
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 7: in a relationship. A business relationship would also apply to

695
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 7: competing gun companies. The question in our case was does

696
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 7: it apply to third parties who were aggrieved in the

697
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 7: way that these family members were aggrieved in the shooting,

698
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 7: you know that were killed in the shooting, and in

699
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 7: our state, there is no requirement that the law be

700
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 7: limited to those who are in a direct business relationship,

701
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 7: and that's what the Supreme Court Ofkinnecticut held. Now, other

702
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 7: states written into these laws, these consumer protection laws, other

703
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 7: states actually say in the law effectively that you need

704
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 7: to be in a business relationship with the defendant. So

705
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 7: that wouldn't work our theory arguably wouldn't want in those states.

706
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: So what happens now, I mean, what are the larger

707
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: implications of what you've done in this Sandy Hurt situation.

708
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,959
Speaker 7: Well, I'm a lawyer who represents people whose livesmen turned

709
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 7: up to side down, and I'm not a politician, and

710
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 7: I'm not in any kind of an advocacy or.

711
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 6: Public interest type group.

712
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 7: The hope of the tort system in general, in this case,

713
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 7: specifically this case more than any other, is that as

714
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 7: a result of having to be held accountable for the

715
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 7: harm that was caused, that not only brings a measure

716
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 7: of justice and accountability of the families, but it also

717
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 7: has a substantial ripple effects within the gun industry in

718
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 7: this case, or industries that serve as underwriters of the

719
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 7: gun industry.

720
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: You know, if you take a drug of medicine and

721
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: it makes you sick, then you can often sue the

722
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: company that made you sick. But if you are shot

723
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: in a mass shooting, there isn't the same kind of

724
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: consumer protection.

725
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 7: For lack of a better word, I mean, be pretty

726
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 7: much nailed at. I mean, that's the concept is that

727
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 7: victims of mass shootings and other shootings for that matter,

728
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 7: are not only aggrieved in the most horrific ways typically,

729
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 7: but also are treated as second class citizens under the

730
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 7: law because of the unique protections given to the gun industry.

731
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 7: And as a corollary to that, the gun industry is

732
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 7: treated with kid gloves, given special treatment and protections by government,

733
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 7: which when I learned about this, I thought was super ironic.

734
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 7: I mean, here's an industry that rails against the federal government,

735
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 7: right you know, and they get a yet yet their

736
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 7: biggest big buddy is the federal government.

737
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 6: But that's the reality.

738
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: We have this very insane Supreme Court. Doesn't it seem

739
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: like something that they are going to get involved in?

740
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 4: Does that worry you?

741
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 7: Well, I've heard people say that, and I think that

742
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 7: with respect to that sort of thought, I think that

743
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 7: just speaks to the ability of the public in general

744
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 7: to distinguish between something political in terms of guns, and

745
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 7: something commercial. One of the things that I was acutely

746
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 7: aware of, because I've done it myself, is that once

747
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 7: a year guns we're just programmed to go right to

748
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 7: Second Amendment.

749
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 6: You know, good guy with guns.

750
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 7: Supreme Court, we've been so programmed, and it does have

751
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 7: a political component.

752
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: I was aware of that.

753
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 7: But you know, there's also this separate thing, which is

754
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 7: the obligation of corporate America to behave like adults and

755
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 7: to show some concern and act responsibly with respect to

756
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 7: the way they conduct business, and especially when it comes

757
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 7: to matters that pose a grave risk to the public

758
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 7: and public safety. And yes, it's true that guns may

759
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 7: have enjoy this sort of what many of us feels

760
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 7: a distortion of constitutional law and protection, but that doesn't

761
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 7: alleviate the obligation of those that profit from guns to

762
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 7: behave like responsible corporate citizens.

763
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 6: If that makes any sense.

764
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it does.

765
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: And in fact, it's funny because it's like we are

766
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: in this period of a Supreme Court that is their

767
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: whole idea of this sort of originalism is that if

768
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: the founding fathers wrote the Constitution. If they didn't have

769
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 1: gotten control in there, then it doesn't exist.

770
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 4: And you know, you should be able to beat your wife.

771
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know it's crazy, but it is.

772
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: This idea of consistency in legislation and consumer protection is

773
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: like one of the sort of things. I mean, American

774
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: life is built on being able to sue people when

775
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: they do something.

776
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 6: You don't like to state.

777
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 7: The obvious one that the common law upon which we

778
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 7: inherited predated our constitution and was endorsed by our constitution.

779
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 7: So there are lots of things in play here, and

780
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 7: there's lots of you could spend I'm sure hours taking

781
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 7: apart the reasoning of the Supreme Court's recent decision in Brewin,

782
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 7: but you know, among many other things, I mean, the

783
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 7: types of weapons that they're dealing with in cases today

784
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 7: didn't even exist in those times, so that ought to

785
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 7: right there invalidate any comparison my view.

786
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think it is a really good point.

787
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: The thing I'm struck by, why not when we cover

788
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: things like this is and again it's not political, but

789
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: it is.

790
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 4: But everything is political.

791
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: There are so many people on the conservative side who

792
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: have been working on legislation via the Supreme Court, for example,

793
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: I think of three h three creative right.

794
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 4: You know she never made the websites. She probably never will.

795
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 4: I mean, do you worry about that?

796
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: And also are there reverberations from what you do that

797
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: could be used in that way to shift legislation.

798
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 7: If I put on my parent hat, I worry about it,

799
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 7: and my love of America hat, I worry about it

800
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 7: for all of us and especially you know, people I

801
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 7: love and for my country. In terms of my lawyer,

802
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 7: Laine Hat here, even for this Supreme Court, it would

803
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 7: be it would be an extreme overreach to try to

804
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 7: reach into litigation like that which we have in Sandy

805
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 7: Hook and claim it as somehow impairing some constitutional right

806
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 7: that they've made up to be fair. I think that

807
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court recognized that when they looked at the

808
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 7: application to have this case heard by them and denied it.

809
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 7: If I were you, I'd be asking me the same questions.

810
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 7: But I think this discussion just is more evidence of

811
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,800
Speaker 7: how everything about guns ends up in the same place

812
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 7: in these camps. You know, there's the pro gun, pro

813
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 7: Second Amendment folks, and then there's the quote unquote common

814
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 7: sense gun reform folks. Or as the other side says,

815
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 7: the gun grabbers, or as the common sense side says,

816
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 7: you know, the gun crazies or gun nuts. I mean,

817
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 7: so it just it gets there and we all end

818
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 7: up at the doorstep of the Supreme Court anyway. But

819
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 7: if you think about it, well, in our case, basically

820
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 7: we were saying, look, it's just wrong for any company,

821
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 7: especially a company that sells AR fifteen's, to try to

822
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 7: brand themselves with children and teenagers and work around the

823
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 7: parents and get to their kids and establish a relationship

824
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 7: that is built on solving their problems with violence and

825
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 7: loan gunman assaults. That's wrong whether you're a Democrat or

826
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 7: a Republican, or gun person or not. So you know,

827
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 7: that should have nothing to do with the political questions

828
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,719
Speaker 7: that seemed to put us in this permanent state of

829
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 7: really inability to move forward in any direction politically.

830
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: So in these lawsuits you find a lot of times

831
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: things in discovery. Talk to us about the discovery process.

832
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 7: The big I guess achievement of the case was when

833
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court at Connecticut said yes, you can go

834
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 7: forward with this case. Up until that and a lot

835
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 7: of people who had looked at the case from the

836
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 7: outside thought that the chances were virtually nil. They didn't

837
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 7: see what we saw, but in any event, that was

838
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 7: a prevailing view, and that was a prevailing view of

839
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 7: the gun industry. So they've never really had to get

840
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,399
Speaker 7: to that next step. And I think your listeners may

841
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 7: not be familiar with the sequence of things. It's complicated,

842
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 7: you know. The first thing is you have to do

843
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 7: is you have to gather information yourself what's publicly available,

844
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 7: and you put together a story I always think of

845
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 7: as a complaint, like the story of the case, and

846
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 7: you'd find the law that fits with that story and

847
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 7: the facts that you know them, and you file that lawsuit.

848
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 7: And most lawsuits then go forward into what's called discovery,

849
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 7: where you get the documents or information that you need

850
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 7: from the person you're bringing lawsuit against. When it comes

851
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 7: to guns ensuing the gun industry, they have this special protection,

852
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 7: and this is the protection that was given by Congress

853
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 7: in two thousand and five. And under the special protection,

854
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 7: the gun industry is allowed to try to dismiss the

855
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 7: case and shut it down right from the start.

856
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 6: So right after you.

857
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 7: File that complaint and tell your story based on what

858
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 7: you understand the facts, to be, the gun industry then

859
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 7: moves to shut it down and dismiss the case, and

860
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 7: they were very, very successful at that up until the

861
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 7: Sandy Hook lawsuit. The importance of that is if you

862
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 7: shut down the case before you get to this second

863
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 7: part where you get to find out and get information

864
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 7: from the other side, it means you get to keep

865
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 7: your secrets of how you do business hidden because this

866
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 7: process gets shut down before you get there. So in

867
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 7: our case, after the Supreme Court of Connecticut greenlit part

868
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 7: of the case, and after the Supreme Court denied reviewing,

869
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 7: after the United States Supreme Court denied reviewing the Connecticut

870
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 7: short decision, we were then allowed to get into that

871
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 7: second part of the process, which was discovery, which literally

872
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 7: means discovering things from the other side. So in this case,

873
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 7: what I knew, Molly, I didn't know what we were

874
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 7: going to find. To be honest, all I knew is

875
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 7: that we were headed into what I've described as like

876
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 7: a dark, underground cave that nobody had ever been to before,

877
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 7: and the only people who'd been there are people in

878
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 7: the gun industry. What I knew we needed to do

879
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 7: was to make sure that we drove a truck through

880
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 7: that opening and try to find as much our way

881
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 7: through that cave in as much detail as possible, and

882
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 7: more to be less allegorical about it, like I just

883
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 7: wanted to get all the stuff we could, right could

884
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 7: because the family's case and to a person to a family,

885
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 7: you know, amazing in the mass shooting. We tend to

886
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 7: lump victims of mass shootings into one block like they're

887
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 7: all that means they're all for gun reform or all

888
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 7: for these was and that they're poltically different like the

889
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 7: people they were before. But the one thing the families,

890
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 7: the nine families shared was the goal of trying to

891
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 7: learn as much as they could about this industry and

892
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 7: shed light on it in order to hopefully prevent the

893
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 7: next Sandy Hook. And so this was a critical part

894
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 7: of the whole endeavor. And so you know, even if

895
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 7: we had proceeded with the case and it didn't go

896
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 7: anywhere after we were able to get through into this

897
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 7: dungeon or this cave, it would have been a victory

898
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 7: to get this information and to be able to share

899
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 7: it with the public.

900
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 4: So what was it?

901
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 6: We now know?

902
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 2: What?

903
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 7: When I'm behind closed doors of what had become the

904
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 7: world's biggest gun conglomerate for a period of time. You

905
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 7: know the decisions that were made in the boardrooms in

906
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 7: terms of how to market, how to expand the market,

907
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 7: what techniques and schemes to use to bring in a

908
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 7: younger and younger demographic. When they were facing increasing competition.

909
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 7: We know that they pivoted towards AR fifteens because of

910
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 7: the high margin and profit that they provided. We know

911
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 7: that a private equity firm called Cerberus was heavily involved

912
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 7: in the transformation of the American gun industry.

913
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 6: We know that. I mean, you might have asked yourself,

914
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 6: as I.

915
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 7: Have as a parent, how come I never heard of

916
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 7: an AR fifteen when I was growing up, right, But

917
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 7: every twelve year old now knows what one is. It's

918
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 7: not accidental, but that comes as a result of what

919
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 7: was a very clever, very concerted, and very greedy effort

920
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 7: to sell as many AR fifteens to as many people

921
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 7: as they could.

922
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 4: Jesus when you saw this where you just.

923
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 7: Chalked, I mean I was, and I wasn't because frankly,

924
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 7: I didn't expect much out of the gun industry after way,

925
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 7: I mean, I didn't really know much about the gun

926
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 7: industry again, because I didn't really know wasn't an area

927
00:48:57,880 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 7: of focus in mind. But I learned that the gun

928
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 7: industry in many ways was no different than any other

929
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 7: industry that was profit driven, but in some way, in

930
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 7: some critical ways, it was whereas if you got behind

931
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 7: the doors of it, you went into a boardroom of

932
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 7: a car manufacturer, car company like Ford, you know there's

933
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 7: gonna be a safety division. There's going to be somebody

934
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 7: in that in each meeting that's going to say, hey,

935
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 7: can we do this? Is it really safe? What are

936
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 7: the implications to public safety?

937
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 6: Right? Cars can be pretty.

938
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 7: Dangerous, you know, should we really be marketing them to children?

939
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 7: To run over people? And you're going to get a

940
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 7: more you're going to get a more diversity, and you'll

941
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,879
Speaker 7: have a ethical and moral governor on all kind of

942
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 7: in the boardrooms that's utterly lacking in the gun industry.

943
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 7: There's no pushback to anything. There's it's a no holds

944
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 7: barred industry. That's what I learned. I guess because we

945
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 7: could all see the finished product, like you probably saw

946
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 7: the man card advertising that promoted masculinity and owning an

947
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 7: AR fifteen. You know that doesn't happen by accident, So

948
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 7: I didn't expect much, but I think that the extent

949
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 7: I was shocked, it was the cognitive dissonance between what

950
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 7: they were doing and the effects we're seeing in our communities.

951
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 7: Number one and number two is just the utter lack

952
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 7: of anybody or any even structural thing in place that

953
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 7: looked at public safety or any implications of their scheme

954
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 7: to make money. And the other thing is that, you know,

955
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 7: whereas I think of greed and as a bad thing,

956
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 7: this particular gun conglomerate, which was the brainchild of this

957
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 7: private equity firm, existed for one reason and one reason only,

958
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,760
Speaker 7: and that was to try to build a billion dollar

959
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 7: revenue company that they could then go public with a

960
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 7: gun company. So that was their first, second, and third

961
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 7: goal was to make money and buy their own testimony

962
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 7: and admission. And do you know, bad things happen when

963
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 7: people lose their way in an effort simply to accumulate

964
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 7: wealth at the cost of everything else. And really bad

965
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 7: things happen when those people sell ar fifteen's and other

966
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 7: types of fire arms to children or try to brand

967
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 7: themselves to children. But just it speaks to the desperation

968
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 7: and the lengths of which people go to so I

969
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 7: wouldn't point to one individual as being a bad person

970
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,800
Speaker 7: or their fathers and families. Everybody in the gun industry

971
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 7: mostly has family members that they care about. There's just

972
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 7: this cognitive dissonance and refusal to see or even evaluate

973
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 7: the implications of what they're doing.

974
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 4: Josh, thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

975
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 6: I'd love to BALI thank you no moment perfectly.

976
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 8: I it's Molly chm Thost and you're getting the moment

977
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 8: of fuckoring on your nun today. I am can you

978
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 8: use this moment to talk about the one soldierate Nancy

979
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 8: Mays who told Jah temper on Celo that she knew

980
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 8: funny As Democrats who trusted Jim Jordan, I promise you

981
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 8: there's not a single Democrat who trusts Jim Jordan, and

982
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 8: that incredible Nancy may Fly is your moment of suckery.

983
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,279
Speaker 4: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

984
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the

985
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: best minds in politics makes sense of all this chaos.

986
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to

987
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 1: a friend and keep the conversation going, and again thanks

988
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: for listening,