1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vanderkam. I'm a mother of four, 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, practicing physician and blogger. On 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: the side, we are two working parents who love our 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and thirty nine. 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: We will be interviewing Michelle King, who is the author 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: of the book The Fix, which is about fixing the 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: invisible barriers to women's advancement at work. She's also the 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: director of Inclusion at Netflix, so we are really looking 15 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: forward to talking with her. I'm sitting here doing this 16 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: introduction with Henry on my lap, So if you hear 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: any baby noises, that's we're making sure he is fed 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: before we do the interview itself. That's what we are at, 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: how we roll around here. So yeah, we're looking forward 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: to that. Yeah, I'm really excited about the topic about 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: the inclusion and all that I think. I told Laura, 22 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: this is going to be my opportunity to share the 23 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: happy news that I got a I don't know, it's 24 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: not a promotion, it's just sort of an opportunity that 25 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to get to serve on this leadership board 26 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: with in our organization. And the funny part is that 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: until last year there were no women on it. So 28 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: I was moved to do this after I saw a 29 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: picture in sort of our annual yearbook with this lovely, official, 30 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: distinguished looking physician Leadership Council and it was like fifteen 31 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: people and they were all men, and it was just 32 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: like no, no, no, yeah, that's the kind of picture 33 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: like you can't put out publicly anymore like one would think. 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: But I mean obviously people do. There's a law firm 35 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago that published their picture of 36 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: their new partners which had a similar, similar breakdown to 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: your physician leadership group, and I mean they were pilloried 38 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: on social media of this, So you know, if you 39 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: are in an organization where that is the case, don't 40 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: publish that photo, just so you know. So I may 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: have only gotten the position because I'm going to add 42 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: some diversity to the photo. But that's okay. It's actually 43 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: been in your area of expertise. I mean of this 44 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: as well too. Yes, I am the chairperson of the 45 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Physician Wellness Committee, which really is all about work life 46 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: integration and quality of life and all things you guys 47 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: know I'm extremely passionate about anyway, So I'm excited, and 48 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm also excited because our guest today works at Netflix, 49 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: and I love Netflix. Netflix could be a love of 50 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: the Week and we'll get to that. But you guys 51 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: have been Netflix subscribers for like a long time, like 52 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: DVD and the mail subscribers. Yeah, Like we had a 53 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: program where you could get I think three DVDs at 54 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: once and then we would switch them out. And I 55 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: have fond memories of us renting Citizen Kane for at 56 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: least six months, like it's sat on there, because I'm 57 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: sure the format really led itself to aspirational selections because 58 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, yes, future me will want to watch 59 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,079 Speaker 1: Citizen Kane, of course, and then I just like remember 60 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: it sitting there. But luckily we were in we were 61 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: able to get like three discs at once, so it 62 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: wasn't holding us back. We just shuffle out the other 63 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: two and we've continued to be subscribers through its current iteration, 64 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: which is really cool and that Netflix has kind of 65 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: reinvented itself along with the Times, and I've heard some 66 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: interesting stories about how the company did that. So I'm 67 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: very excited to talk to this person. But I'm still 68 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: a very happy, happy Netflix subscriber. Well, we are new 69 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: Netflix subscribers. We were not Netflix subscribers forever, and then 70 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: Jasper asked for it for Christmas, so he has the 71 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: account now. I mean, I guess the whole family does, 72 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: but he's the one who uses it for the most part, 73 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: and he seems to be a happy customer as well, 74 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: So there we go. We recently, we've been upgrading our 75 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: electronics systems. We had to buy a new television because 76 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: one child may have knocked it over, fortunately not in 77 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: a way that injured anybody, because it was one of 78 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: these old TVs that is heavier than they are now. 79 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: It's good that you have enough children that you can 80 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: say that and it's like, which child did It's anonymous? Yeah, 81 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: so that had to be replaced. But I was joking 82 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: about how fast this replacement happened, like we have things 83 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: in this house that have not been replaced forever, right, 84 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: And the TV that had the Xbox on it broke 85 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: and it was like replaced inside seventy two hours. You know, 86 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,559 Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say, like ninety minutes, ninety minutes. 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: Well there was there was hunting for a replacement, like 88 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: within ninety minutes of it being clear that this thing 89 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: was broken and not coming back to life. And it 90 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: may be that another member of this family plays a 91 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: lot of Fortnite and not the member you may think. 92 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: Let's just there may be an adult No it's not me, 93 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: but there is definitely an adult member who shall be 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: named nameless who has been playing that. So yes, the 95 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: TV was fixed quickly, all right, Well, with that, let's 96 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: get to our interview. Well, Sarah and I are delighted 97 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: to welcome Michelle King to Best of both worlds. She 98 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: is the director of Inclusion at Netflix and the author 99 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 1: of the new book The Fix Overcome the Invisible Barriers 100 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: that are holding women back at work, And of course 101 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: we all want to overcome those invisible barriers that are 102 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: holding women back at work. So Michelle, could you talk 103 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: a little bit about your career journey and your family. Sure. 104 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: I started out my career. I did my first degree 105 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: in industrial organizational psychology, which for people who don't know, 106 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: is basically business psychology, so you look at through the 107 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 1: way organizations work, and started out a career in that, 108 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: and then sort of halfway through, decided that, you know what, 109 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: I finished my masters, I'm working in an organization and 110 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a journalist, so I went back 111 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: to school and did a postgraduate in journalism and worked 112 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: as a TV reporter and a lot of people know that, 113 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: so as a TV report in New Zealand, and you 114 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: might be able to find some old video footage would 115 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: be really embarrassing. And after I did that, I then 116 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: decided that, you know what, I actually do enjoy industrial 117 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: org sites, so I might go back into it and 118 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: started working in human resources. And actually communications and human 119 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: resources are quite similar fields, so it was quite a 120 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: useful to have both skill sets. And then I did 121 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: my MBA and was working in a range of different industries, 122 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: a lot of hard industries, manufacturing oil in gas, you know, 123 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: quite a range of financial services. So I have quite 124 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: a sort of strong private sector background, doing a lot 125 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: of diversity and inclusion work because it's quite integrated into 126 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: human resources. And then as I started after my second child, 127 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: so I had my daughter and then I have my son. 128 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: Something happens when you become a mum and you really 129 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: start to think about you know, if you're going to 130 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: spend that much time away from your kids, it needs 131 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: to be something that not only is worthwhile financially, but 132 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: also has meaning. And you know, that's one of the 133 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: things we find in the differentiator between men and women's careers. 134 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: Both want meaning, but women wanted in a different way. Right. 135 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: We want to contribute and sort of add back to 136 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: our communities. And so I found that quite a significant 137 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: shift for me after my second child, and I ready 138 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: started to think about the work that I was doing 139 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: and the impact it was having on women and wanting 140 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: you to understand the challenges that I've faced in my career. 141 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: So I started researching even before I'd signed on my PhD, 142 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: before I'd done anything. You know, I'm a researcher at heart, 143 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: and so I spent a lot of time trying to 144 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: understand the issue and decided that that's what I wanted 145 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: to do. So set out unbarked on my PhD and 146 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: through a long process, started working at You and Women 147 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: and I was there for four years and that role 148 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: was a range of roles from diversity through deleting this 149 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: big coalition, very very exciting work, and managed to sort 150 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: of carve out a whole space for myself in the 151 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: in the gender in organization space. And so then that 152 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: kind of brought me into Netflix and where I am today. 153 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: And it was about sort of three quarters the way 154 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: through my research with my PhD that I realized I 155 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: needed to share the story with women. So that's what 156 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: prompted me then to write the book. That's great, and 157 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: in your book you talk about that a lot of 158 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: this conversation about women in the workplace has amounted to 159 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: what you call this woman fixing epidemic, Right, So what 160 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: do you mean by the woman fixing epidemic? Yeah, so look, 161 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: I gotta be honest. I when I started this work 162 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: was back in like twenty ten, and I think was 163 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: at the peak of lean in. And it's a bit 164 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: embarrassing now, but I was definitely somebody who sort of 165 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: brought into the whole lean in school of thought before 166 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: i'd sort of undertaken this research and when I started 167 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: the research. I was really looking for, you know, what 168 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: could I do to fix myself? So what is it 169 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: that I need to do more of? You know, how 170 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: could I lean in? What is what is it that 171 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: I could do to ensure that I advanced at the 172 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: same rate as my male colleagues. And there's one male 173 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: colleague in particular who always kind of bugged me because 174 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: he didn't have a master's degree. He had high after 175 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: the experience I had. His performance ratings were pretty average, 176 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: and he just consistently would get the bigger, better jobs. 177 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: And like, here I was with two mastered degrees, you know, 178 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: and that postgraduate quaucation. I had like really strong performance ratings, 179 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: way more years of experience than him, and I just 180 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: was I was dumbfounded, and so I had to find 181 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: this answer. So in researching everything, there came this point. 182 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: I'll never forget it. I'd all the journal articles that 183 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: have around me on the table, and I remember just 184 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: looking at them, thinking, oh my god, this is unbelievable. 185 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: All these articles are telling me how capable women are. 186 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: And it's all the things that you know, might be 187 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: hard to believe at first, the things like networking. I mean, 188 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: that's one of the go tos for women, we don't 189 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: network enough or speaking up and asserting ourselves when it 190 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: comes to things like pay. Women do that more than men. 191 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: They just said, less likely to get you know, the 192 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: pay increase. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for this, 193 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: but consistently I would go through it, and then I 194 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: found these incredible what we call meta analysis or studies 195 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: of study. That's that you know, on average, women just 196 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: a better leaders in terms of how we go about 197 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: leading and managing others and collaborating and solving problems. So 198 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: across the board. I was sort of like dumbfounded, and 199 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: then it led me to want to understand, well, if 200 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: it's not women, what is it. And that's kind of 201 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: what led to the book, where it became very clear 202 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: that organizations are just not designed for difference, and they're 203 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: sort of set up in a way that was really 204 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: for this sort of outdated nineteen fifties Don Draper type 205 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: of man, right, you know, and that they're just hardwined 206 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: for somebody is really the opposite of what women are 207 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: and how women work. And so that's what creates a 208 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: lot of challenges for women and anybody that doesn't conform 209 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: to this outdated ideal. Yeah, and your book you talk 210 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: about sort of the three different phases of a woman's career. 211 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk really briefly about what 212 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 1: those are as we think about sort of our long 213 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: term career management. Yeah. So, again, if we think of 214 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: the Don Draper idea, which is your white, middle class, heterosexual, 215 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: able bodied mail but importantly someone who's willing to gauge 216 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: in sort of dominant, aggressive competitive behaviors to get ahead, 217 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: who's sort of free from dependent care responsibilities. When you 218 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: think of that being the ideal in workplaces, a typical 219 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: career for that kind of ideal is really a linear one. Right, 220 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: you go to work, you assert yourself, you play the 221 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: political game, and it helps you climb up and you 222 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: progress up and up the hierarchy to the point at 223 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: which you're the leader and then everybody follows suit. So 224 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: that is the model that organizations have really been designed for. 225 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: But what's interesting is when you look at women's careers, 226 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: they're fundamentally different from men's. And the reason for that 227 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: is women have to integrate work life and home life, 228 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: and also organizations were never really designed for women and 229 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: women's needs. So what we find is, you know, when 230 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: women start out in their careers, it's called the idealistic 231 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: achievement phase, right, And this has been sort of tested 232 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: by two different researchers and they found their really are 233 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: these three phases, right, So when women start out, we're 234 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: really idealistic about what we can achieve and work places. 235 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: We believe in what I call the meritocracy myth, and 236 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: they start out thinking, you know, ie, loone can achieve, 237 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: ielone can push through, ilone can succeed, It'll be enough, right, 238 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: And because that's what we're promised early on. So we're 239 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: told in school, you work hard and you will succeed. 240 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: And that's simply not the case when you hit organizations 241 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: where you know, women encounter barrier like from the moment 242 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: they could get into organizations where they have to try 243 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: and fit this ideal and that ideal standard does not 244 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 1: match the standard society halls for how women are meant 245 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: to behave. So when women assert themselves in the way 246 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: that Don Droper might to be seen as like a leader, 247 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: because Don's the ideal for leaders, they're penalized, right, because 248 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: society says women need to not do that, they need 249 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: to be meek and mild and you know, very sort 250 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: of more maternal. So right from the get go, women 251 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: face a lot of challenges with this, and so that's 252 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: really the idealistic phase. And then what happens is the 253 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: more barriers women encounter over the course of their career, 254 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: they start to sort of realize and become aware of inequality. 255 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: And this shows up in a myriad of ways, but 256 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: sort of one of the most amazing statistics on it 257 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: is that, you know, within the first three years of 258 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: working life, the the Bain study on this, women's confidence 259 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: in their ability to succeed to senior level roles sort 260 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: of more than half. And we see that playing out 261 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: because when you confront these barriers on a daily basis, 262 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: you start to question like, actually, maybe I can't get there, 263 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: and maybe it is me. And so there's this whole 264 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: internalization of the barriers that happened quite early on in 265 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: women's careers. And then that comes like a perfect store, 266 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: which is the endurance phase, which any mother will be nodding, 267 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: and you know, you don't even have to be a 268 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: mother to experience this. But what really happens at the 269 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: midpoint in women's careers is now you know, they've seen enough. 270 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: They're starting to realize, actually, maybe workplaces don't work for 271 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: comitting in the same way, and there are these challenges 272 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: that can't maybe put the words to them, but they're 273 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: starting to see inequality and inequality moments. And it's at 274 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: that point that women normally approach sort of what management 275 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: levels typically. And it's also coincides with the same time 276 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: that women are about to have children. And it's always 277 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: say this. You know, it's one thing in organizations to 278 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: let women advance, but up until the point that they're 279 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: actually leading is when organizations really struggle with the idea 280 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: of a sort of women leading in a way that 281 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: doesn't fit Don Draper. And if you add on being 282 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: a mother, where it's really evident that women are like 283 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: deviating from the standard right like literally the opposite of 284 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: the Don Draper ideal, that creates a lot of challenges 285 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: for women. And so if women endure this and they 286 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: get through this phase, the endurance phase, and they survive 287 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: all the challenges that come with that, and the barriers 288 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: don't go away, right, they just accumulate throughout your career, 289 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: you then get to the final stage, which is where 290 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: most women typically lead later on in their careers. And 291 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, this is called the contribution phase. And the 292 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: reason for that's the thing I think makes women so 293 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: incredible is that the spink going through all of that, right, 294 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: despite having to go to work and not just studio job, 295 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: but achievedly impossible by overcoming barrier after barrier. Women then 296 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: want to contribute back and make it easier for the 297 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: next generation of women, which is why that later phase 298 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: is called the contribution phase. Women want that meaning and 299 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: that opportunity to contribute. So those are the three phases 300 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: and truly why I think women are remarkable. Yes, but 301 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: we'll get to more of that in just a minute. 302 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: We take a quick ad break, all right, So we're 303 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: back with Michelle Kig who is the author of The Fix. 304 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: We're talking about the invisible barriers that women face at work, 305 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: and we just talked through the three phases that women 306 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: go through. I think we have a lot of our 307 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: listeners in the endurance phase, who are you know, raising 308 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: young children, sort of middle management and one of the challenges, 309 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we all know there are all kinds of 310 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: systemic barriers out there. One of the reasons literature is 311 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: aimed at individuals, of course, is that it's easier to 312 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: fix yourself than to fix the world, or at least 313 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: to try to fix yourself than to fix the world. 314 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: But we do have a lot of listeners who are 315 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: in management, so you know, you're not necessarily leading the company, 316 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: but if you are in middle management, what can people 317 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: in those roles do to contribute to more equitable organizations. 318 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: I'm really curious what you are training, say, managers at Netflix, 319 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: to do to make a more inclusive and you know 320 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: environment that is friendly to women, of course, but to 321 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: people with any sort of difference. Yeah. So look, I 322 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: mean I can't speak to Netflix specifically, but I can 323 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: speak generally in terms of what I think leaders should do. 324 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: So on the whole you know, the whole chapter on this, 325 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: and it's probably I think the most valuable chapter in 326 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: the whole book because it's really the whole point of 327 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: writing the book is this call to leaders to lead. Right, 328 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: So equality for me is this invitation for leaders to lead, 329 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter what level you're at in the organization. 330 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, it doesn't even matter if the CEO is 331 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: brought into it. Every leader within their team can practice equality, right, 332 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: and it starts with awareness. And so I always laugh 333 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: because I go to these conferences and I see women 334 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: sitting there with their no pads and pens, and they're wanting, 335 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: like the five actions they can take to advance equality. 336 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: And if it was that simple, you know, we would 337 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: have solved this a long time ago. But I think 338 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: the real work and the hard work and the uncomfortable 339 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: work and a bit people don't like to hear, but 340 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: it's true. It's the awareness. So how many leaders today 341 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: in organizations understand how equality works? How many leaders are 342 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: aware of the fact that there is this embedded ideal 343 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: and prototype and the challenges that creates for women, and 344 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: how you know, actually living up to that prototype affords 345 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: them a certain privilege. Whether you're a white woman, you 346 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: have your whiteness in common with Don Draper. If you're 347 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: a white you know, middle class heterosexual of a body mail, 348 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: you literally look and sit like the prototype, right, and 349 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: we live up to it by engaging in the behaviors 350 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: that I talked about, So, you know, those dominant, assertive, aggressive, 351 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: exclusionary behaviors. And so I think it's it's really important 352 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: to become aware of. Hey, so what is my identity, 353 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: How does that fit the prototype, how does that afford 354 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: me certain privilege? And what challenges does that then create 355 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,120 Speaker 1: for everybody who doesn't fit? And so I always say 356 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: every manager and every person who is listening to this 357 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: doesn't It's not just manager specific, but managers play a 358 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: key role. And I'll get to wine a minute. Can 359 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: spend their privilege right, and you spend it by understanding 360 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: how this particular ideal and the privilege you have creates 361 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: barriers to other people's advancement. So once you have that 362 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: awareness of yourself and kind of the privilege you have 363 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: and what you're bring table and how that creates challenges 364 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: for others, you then really need to think about, Okay, 365 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: so how does a show up in my workplace? So 366 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 1: you know my book, I've identified seventeen barriers to women's advancement. 367 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: I talk about how these differ for different women, how 368 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: they show up, you know, throughout women's careers. Get to 369 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: know the barriers, know them to name them. So if 370 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: you're a manager and you're sitting there and you're spotting, 371 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 1: you know, a negative gender nor might give an example 372 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: of my book, when my boss told me to wash 373 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: the dishes at work right, Like that is an opportunity 374 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: for a leader to step in and say, hey, no, 375 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: you know, this is not what we do because you 376 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: know instantly that this is a barrier, that women encounter it, 377 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: and so you know what to do. And so I 378 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: think it's every leaders has a role to play and 379 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: ensuring that they know what the barriers are so that 380 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: they can take action in the moment. And I talk 381 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: about it in terms of managing inequality moments, like there's 382 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: this idea that an equality is like some you know, 383 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: ambiguous thing that sets out there. The reality is it's 384 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: a lived experience, so it shows up every day when 385 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: you're in your workplace. There are those moments where culture's 386 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 1: either made or it's not. And it is every leader's 387 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: responsibility to call those moments out. And you're only going 388 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: to know those moments if you learn them. The understanding's key, 389 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: and then the final bit is rarely making it a practice. 390 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: So you know, I talk about the importance of dondreprint 391 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: importance of leaders in the book. Leaders set the standards 392 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: for what good looks like right through their silence, through 393 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: what their reward, through what they encourage. They determine what 394 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: the culture is right. They determine what behaviors get accepted 395 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: and what behaviors don't. And so it's the inequality employees 396 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: experience in work places is directly a result of leadership 397 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: one hundred percent. And so we need leaders to really 398 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: every day, not only through their own behaviors, but through 399 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: the behaviors they reward and reinforce except the standard of 400 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: what good looks like when it comes to inclusion, when 401 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: it comes to quality, when it comes to a sense 402 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: of belonging. Yeah, And one of the things I enjoyed 403 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: reading about in the book is you mentioned, you know, 404 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: challenging these inequality moments. But there's different ways to challenge 405 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: these moments. And one of the things you mentioned your 406 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: husband doing is asking questions. So when he would spot 407 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: an inequality moment, he would sort of address it in 408 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: the form of a question. Can you talk a little 409 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: bit about that. I'm laughing because I always peck on 410 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: my poor husband in the book, But I mean, he's like, 411 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: you know, he did not sign on for this feminist journey. 412 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: He's come a really long way. He is your typical 413 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, he's basically done right, and so I've taken 414 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: him on as inequality journey sort of a feminist in training, 415 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: and it's actually really good for me. It's been really 416 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: insightful to learn about the barriers of benefits and organizations. Right, 417 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: It's not something I knew, and you know, it's a 418 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: whole different story as to how it became aware of that. 419 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: But in part it's been through like trying to understand 420 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: my husband's perspective on some of the stuff. And I mean, 421 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: I think it's a great secret about gender and equalities. 422 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: It creates challenges for men, right, So it's a great 423 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: story because ultimately we all serve to benefit from tackling it. 424 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: So that's sort of the why it's important for men 425 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: to take action. How men take action is like all 426 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: of us, we need to be allies. And that means 427 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: in the moment when these issues happen, you sort of 428 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: speak up. And one way to speak up that I 429 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: talk about in the book is asking why. So, for example, 430 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: my husband was in seat of a meeting with his 431 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: leader and they were talking about a woman on the 432 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: team who was looking at, you know, going for sort 433 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: of a senior leader role and she was struggling with 434 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: you know, getting put forward for it because she worked 435 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: on a reduced schedule to try and manage sort of 436 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: her responsibilities at home and work. And my husband's boss said, 437 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, I just don't think she she's right for it. 438 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: You know, she worked on that reduce She can't be 439 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: serious about her career. She's got that reduced work schedule. 440 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: I think, you know, we should we should probably consider 441 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: somebody else for that role. And because my husband's trained, 442 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: he knew in the moment to simply ask why, So 443 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: he said, well, well, why do you think that, like 444 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: sort of what you know, what evidence do we have 445 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: for that? Why? Why why are you making that assumption? 446 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: And as they unpacked it, it was just the leader's 447 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: bus right around that she couldn't do it, and she 448 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: got promoted and she don't ever know that it was 449 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: on the back of his advocacy. But I think those 450 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: small moments like where it plays out, it's sometimes hard 451 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: to know what to say. And I think when you 452 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: ask why, you're actually putting the onus on the individual 453 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: with their biases to sort of check themselves. So it's 454 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 1: a really clever way to turn it around. I love that, 455 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: And because questions are less threatening too. I mean, it's 456 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: just you know, why why. I'm just asking a question. 457 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: I'm curious why, you know, let's let's get into this. 458 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: You know, obviously the question of what people are managing 459 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: on the home front comes into this too, and that 460 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that Don Draper can be the 461 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: ideal workers. He doesn't have any dependent care responsibility. And that's, 462 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, something that many women are dealing with. And 463 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about this idea of bread 464 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: sharing rather than bread winning. I'm curious what that means 465 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: to you, what it looks and what it looks like 466 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: for you. I love the idea of you and your 467 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: husband having whiteboard conversations where you write things on the 468 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: whiteboard as they come up. So talk a little about 469 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: what that looks like in your house. You know, it's 470 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: so tough, like this is a really tough question because 471 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: I know a lot of women struggle with this. I 472 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: know that for a lot of women, this is the 473 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: real reason it's hard to advance the work. It's hard 474 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: to advance their careers because you know, women are not 475 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: valued to work in the same way as men. But 476 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: I think in some households, women's careers are also not 477 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: valued in the same way as their husbands or partners 478 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: or you know, whoever they're instead of living with. And 479 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: so I think that's the challenge is, you know, do 480 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: we value women's careers, Do we value women's ambitions? Do 481 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: we value women's dreams? The reality is we don't write. 482 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: And so there's this process where and house. Because we've 483 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: been conditioned by society to see men as the breadwinner 484 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: and value men's careers above everything else, you sort of 485 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: have to practice a quality at home, right, It sort 486 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: of begins at home, and it starts with kind of 487 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: resetting this idea that hey, my dreams, my ambitions, my 488 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: career is just as valuable as yours, So let's treat 489 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: it that way, which means kind of sharing out the 490 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: activities that take away from that, all the activities that 491 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: require sharing. So it's the whole idea of being a 492 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: bread sharer rather than seeing there's one breadwinner in a family. 493 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: And what it means in practice is trying to manage 494 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: the mental and emotional loads. So studies fine, you know, 495 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: with mental load is sure to do list strike you mentally, 496 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: the number of items that you have to think about. 497 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: And I think there was that Bright Horizon study that 498 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: shows that any one time, men and women have about 499 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty items on there to do list 500 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: s rights. It's ridiculous. Like most of us are walking 501 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: around with a lot of activity, and that can cause 502 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: a lot of stress. But interestingly, the thing that I 503 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: talk about in the book that's kind of news, this 504 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: idea of emotional loads. So not only do women have 505 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: sort of a dish proportionate number of things to do 506 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: in terms of managing the household and sort of children's 507 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: schedules and everything that comes with that, but women also 508 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: manage their children's emotional needs, and that creates a huge 509 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: amount of stress. And if I think about it, in 510 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: my household, my husband is very functional, right, so he's 511 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: great at like doing functional things and picking up things 512 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: and managing tasks. He's not so great at managing some 513 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: of the kids' emotional needs. So I'm the one who 514 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: spends like half an hourvery night with my daughter and 515 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: they're talking about her day and hearing about who she 516 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: might be having an argument with, and you know the 517 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 1: challenges that's creating for her. And so you actually have 518 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: to manage both of these and that requires in my household, 519 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: at least that we talk about it, so you know, 520 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: while it might seem that he is a disproportionate number 521 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: of admin tasks, you can actually complete those in the 522 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: same half an hour that I'm required to, you know, 523 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: spend some time with my daughter, and I want to 524 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: do that. I'm not saying it don't, but I think 525 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: it's important to alligate that and talk about it because 526 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: otherwise what happens is you end up carrying an unfair 527 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: sort of load. The other thing I will say, with 528 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: the whiteboard, you know, every week we sit down and 529 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: allocate the task, can we talk about what we're carrying 530 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: and it's a really eye opening sort of moment because 531 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: we see how much each of us are doing. I 532 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: think the important part about it, and something Eve Brodsky 533 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: talks about in your book fair Play, is that it's 534 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: really important to own the task end to end. So 535 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: it's not about the number of tasks necessarily that you have, 536 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: but whether or not you take accountability from end to end. 537 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: So you know, for men who might be listening to this, 538 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: that means, like, you know, if you're taking your plate, 539 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: you have to put it in the dish washing and 540 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: not loaded like next to the sink or like as 541 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: it's the case with my husband where he'll put his 542 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: washing literally on the washing basket, not in it. And 543 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: it's just little things like that, you know, just see 544 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: the task end to it, like complete the task. That's 545 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: sort of the main piece around the whiteboard. Yeah, that 546 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: end to end thing is that. I remember that from 547 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: Eve's book. One example even was forgetting your kid's batting 548 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: helmet for practice. They have to borrow one, they share it, 549 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: they get lace. The lace is your problem. But that 550 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: is so there you go. So we'll just leave that 551 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: one at that. So, Michelle, we always end our interviews 552 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: with what we call our love of the Week, where 553 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: we have our guests say something that's you know, going 554 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: great for them this week. Sarah and I can share 555 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: ours first. But since you are at Netflix, we thought 556 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to ask you about your favorite stories, 557 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: so Sarah, I can go first, so we can we 558 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: can share share that. So my favorite recent Netflix airing 559 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: is actually the two movies based on Jenny Hans's books. 560 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: So to all the Boys I've loved before, and then 561 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: part two is to all the Boys PS, I still 562 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: love you. Total candy, totally fun to watch, good to 563 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: snuggle up with your partner in and enjoyed those. Yeah, 564 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: so we were actually really new to Netflix ourselves. I'm 565 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: sorry about this, but Stranger Things is on Netflix, right, 566 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: is that? Yes? Okay, so my son, my middle school 567 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: age son, is watching. That's what. I'm not entirely sure 568 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: it's age appropriate, but I will just put that out there. 569 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: He is loving it. So how about you, Michelle's what's 570 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: your your big glow fan? Which is Woman Wrestling? It's brilliant. 571 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: That was a prior love of the week Nan, It's 572 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: just the best that Scott Griina Davison, who I'm a 573 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: huge fan of, so I think it's just brilliant. But 574 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: my latest said I'm watching is The Witcher, so I'm 575 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: also a Game of Foreigns fan. I don't know if 576 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: you've seen The Witcher, but it's brilliant. It's like basically 577 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: a version I suppose of that. It's just so good. 578 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, love it awesome. Well, thank you so much 579 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: for joinas Michelle. I hope everyone will pick up your book, 580 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: which is called The Fix, and thank you this month. 581 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: Thank you all right, and now we have our listener 582 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 1: question for the week. Sarah, do you want to do 583 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: you want to read this one sure, because this is 584 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: definitely a question for Laura, who has much more personal 585 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: experience with the answer. This person writes. My question has 586 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: been percolating in my head for a while now, and 587 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: hearing Laura's goal of building her speaking engagements urged me 588 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: to ask. I was wondering if you and Laura could 589 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: maybe talk about what factors you weigh when you make 590 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: career decisions. I've been a freelance stage manager for over 591 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: fifteen years wow. And while I would when I started, 592 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: I'd take any job that was offered. When I had 593 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: one child, she'd travel with me, or i'd leave her 594 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: at home with my husband. If I had a short job, 595 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: often too, my parents would fly into help. But now 596 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: I have three children and the idea of going out 597 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: of town for a six or twelve week stint is daunting, 598 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: and I haven't done it since my second was nine 599 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: months old. I often wonder if I've done my career 600 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: a disservice by turning down gigs that would require lengthy 601 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: out of town travel. There is very limited work for 602 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 1: me where I live, so I currently am working about 603 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: twenty five to thirty weeks per year. The rest of 604 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: the time I stay home with the kids, I get 605 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: to volunteer, go to school events, make dinner, and I 606 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: enjoy having that time to be with family. But I'm 607 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,239 Speaker 1: still wondering if I should work more, and how I 608 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: weigh the value of a gig against being away from home. 609 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear how you guys, particularly Laura, make 610 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: decisions about what work to take on. Is it affected 611 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: by family events or life logistics? And do you say 612 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: yes and then figure the home logistics out or do 613 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: you figure things out before you say yes. Yeah, I 614 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: mean work travel in general is obviously more challenging if 615 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: you have a bigger family. But you know, people make 616 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: it work. I mean there's people she says she has 617 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 1: three children. I mean there are people who go on 618 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: deployments who have three children. So I mean certainly this 619 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: is something that parents will will make happen if they 620 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: need to. You know, For me, it's I'm more gone 621 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: for short since my husband's gone for short sense too. 622 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: I mean, neither of us really ever goes anywhere more 623 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: than a week, so that's kind of a different matter, 624 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: I think than the like six week gigs that her 625 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: work would be talking about. For me, the question of 626 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: whether it is worth it is a pretty straightforward one 627 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: in that I speak professionally to audiences, so like, are 628 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: they paying my going rate? Like if they are, then great, 629 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: it's worth it. Like that is the definition of being 630 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: worth it, you know, other things like conferences that aren't compensated. 631 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: I've pretty much decided not to do so much anymore, 632 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: just because there are a lot of conferences in the world. 633 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: So it's only like the really big ones that I'm 634 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: kind of worth taking on as as networking opportunities, so 635 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: I do maybe like one or two at most a 636 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: year of those. But I would want to put out 637 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: here that she shouldn't have the story in her mind 638 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: that parents can't go take a six week, nine week 639 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: whatever job elsewhere, Like, yes, it will be complicated, but 640 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: it can be done. So if this is something that 641 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: you do want to do, I think you should figure 642 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: out what would make it like worth it to you 643 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: and both in terms of pay and like maybe a 644 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: really really awesome show, like your favorite show, the one 645 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: that got you into theater in the first place, Like 646 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: maybe that would be a good one to start with. 647 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: Listening to Henry here making his noise, but yeah, you know, 648 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: and take that one on as first gig, and then 649 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, figure out what sort of support you need 650 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: and are people on board, Like, are your parents willing 651 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: to help out again? Maybe you could hire a little 652 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: bit of extra childcare for this time. Is your husband 653 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: on board with this idea? If he's like, don't assume 654 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: he'll say no. I mean maybe if you have the conversation, 655 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: you'll be like, I can't envision that ever happening, in 656 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: which case that's a deeper conversation than that you guys 657 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: need to have. But if he doesn't say that, if 658 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: he'sas like, yeah, actually, I thought, you know, it'd be 659 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: great if you got back into this because you seem 660 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: to really be missing it, well that's that's a different matter. 661 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: And then you guys can just figure out the logistical 662 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: pieces to make it work. I mean, my guess is 663 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: you will come home at some point there. Maybe you'll 664 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: come home, you know, two to three times in this 665 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: so it's not like you won't be there at all. 666 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: It's just that you know, you'll need to figure out 667 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: something for the day to day. But probably you can 668 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: do it. I mean, if you were gone for say 669 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: twelve to fifteen weeks, a year, you know, doing two 670 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: shows away from where you are, you know, that's only 671 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: twenty five percent of the time, so that's that's not huge. 672 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: I I feel like I just wanted to weigh in that. 673 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: I feel like I learned that from Laura, like really 674 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: looking at the big picture of the year and how 675 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: many weekends there are, and that has helped me feel better. Now. 676 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: I don't work away from home at all on the 677 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: scale that either of you were talking about, but it 678 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: made me feel better about the times I do go 679 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: away because I just remember, well, if there's fifty two 680 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: weekends and even if I'm gone for ten of them, 681 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: which probably not, that's not that huge of a percentage. 682 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: So really looking at that big picture and objective numbers, 683 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: not just sort of your gut instinct or your guilt 684 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: coming through. Yeah, well this has been best of both worlds. 685 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: We've been talking with Michelle King, the author of The Fix, 686 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: who's the directory director of Inclusion at Netflix. We'll be 687 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: back next week with more on making work in life 688 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah 689 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox 690 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura 691 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both 692 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: worlds podcasts. Please join us next time from more on 693 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: making work and life work together.