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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust Me.

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Speaker 1: Trust Me. I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you, I've never.

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Speaker 2: Had a live If you think that one person has

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Speaker 2: all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast

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Speaker 2: about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two mountaineers who've

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Speaker 2: actually experienced it. I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: This week our guest is once again Michelle Dowd, author

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Speaker 2: of forager Field Notes for Surviving a Family cult. In

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Speaker 2: Part two, today, we'll talk about when her family moved

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Speaker 2: to the mountain and what it was like learning foraging

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Speaker 2: skills and being forced to be constantly uncomfortable because that

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Speaker 2: was considered virtuous.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about how she got sick with an autoimmune

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Speaker 1: disease at the age of ten and spent months in

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Speaker 1: the hospital what happened after her grandfather, who was supposed

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Speaker 1: to live to five hundred years old, died, and how

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Speaker 1: she left the group.

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Speaker 2: All that and more coming up, Megan, before we get

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Speaker 2: into what's your cultiest thing of a week?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I've been reading this week about a cult

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Speaker 1: that I'd never heard about before. It was small, but

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Speaker 1: it was called Nights of the Crystal Blade.

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Speaker 3: Have you heard of this?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: No, but I love that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, they did something pretty interesting. The leaders were

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Speaker 3: two men.

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Speaker 1: It's something that I see women do a lot, where

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Speaker 1: they kind of just combine everything they like into one

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Speaker 1: thing and then kind of make that their religion. I

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Speaker 1: kind of do it myself just in my own life,

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Speaker 1: but these two people actually thought it was meant for everybody.

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Speaker 1: So they combined like very intense Mormonism with dungeons and dragons. Stop. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they had seeing stones that they would use. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to use their names, because fuck them. They

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Speaker 1: ended up marrying each other's eight year old daughters, so

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Speaker 1: don't don't care about their names. But they would use

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Speaker 1: these seeing stones from dungeon and dragons to translate secret

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Speaker 1: Mormon texts and do all of these crazy things. And

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Speaker 1: then one of the quotes I found interesting from the

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Speaker 1: article was that the reporter asked the neighbor like, what

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Speaker 1: did you think of his what's the word his visions?

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Speaker 1: And the neighbor was like, well, I thought they were ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, thank god. The neighbor was like,

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Speaker 1: because I'm seeing completely different ones, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, oh.

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Speaker 2: No, yeah, I mean this group, where are these Utah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Utah and lot they were marrying children. So absolutely awful.

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Speaker 1: But a new twist on an old religion.

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Speaker 2: There really are endless new twists on Mormon. I know,

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Speaker 2: I know, you just can keep twisting until eternity with

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Speaker 2: new prophets and new beliefs. I mean, it goes on forever.

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Speaker 1: Sets it up so perfectly for everyone to have a

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Speaker 1: go at being the prophet.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to be the prophet?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 4: Cool?

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Speaker 1: And I don't want children to be touched, so I'm

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Speaker 1: already the best prophet.

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Speaker 2: I support this. Oh, I would follow you TV.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, send me money? Just kidding, what about you?

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Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: I'm just like losing my mind. This is just you know,

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Speaker 2: just some classic Lola stuff, just some classic Lola losing

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Speaker 2: her mind. It feels like everyone is so deeply entrenched

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Speaker 2: in their belief systems right now that like everyone's in

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Speaker 2: a fucking cult. We have Trump winning the Iowakaccius, where

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Speaker 2: a poll showed that eighty percent of attendees believed he

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Speaker 2: won the election. We have a random extremist group in

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Speaker 2: New York building illegal tunnels under their synagogue, turning into

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Speaker 2: this like widespread conspiracy theory or folding into an existing

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Speaker 2: I should say, widespread antisemitic conspiracy theory, fueling that which

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Speaker 2: has been rampant. And then we have yeah, I still

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Speaker 2: people in my DMS. I just post some like basic

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Speaker 2: humanitarian shit about how more and more and more people

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Speaker 2: in Gaza are starving and dying, and people are justifying it.

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Speaker 2: I have people in my DMS justifying it and telling

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Speaker 2: me that actually that's just like normal standard self defense,

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Speaker 2: which is just completely factually untrue. I haven't mentioned any

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Speaker 2: specifics in a few weeks, so if anyone's not caught up,

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Speaker 2: twenty four thousand people dead, ten thousand of them are children.

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Speaker 2: A thousand kids have lost at least one leg. The

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Speaker 2: amount of explosives they've dropped is the equivalent of two

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Speaker 2: nuclear bombs landing on an area a quarter the size

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Speaker 2: of London. New York Times investigation showed Israel used one

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Speaker 2: of the largest and most destructive bombs available, two thousand

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Speaker 2: pound bombs, which are not targeted in any way, over

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Speaker 2: two hundred times in areas that it had designated as

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Speaker 2: safe for civilians in southern Gaza. And then of course

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Speaker 2: eighty five percent of the population is displaced, have a

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Speaker 2: million people are starving to death, So it's really fucking bad.

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Speaker 2: And the fact that anyone could be like, no, this

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Speaker 2: is normal, like October seventh was horrific. Of course, Israel

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Speaker 2: has the right to defend itself, but this isn't normal.

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Speaker 2: So the fact that there are people still saying that,

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Speaker 2: to me, it just makes me think we're getting all

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Speaker 2: more extreme, and that scares me a lot. I wish

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Speaker 2: that our social media platforms lent themselves to more moderate dialogue,

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Speaker 2: more like exchanges about real shit happening and not so

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Speaker 2: rampant with misinformation, which is just happening in all directions.

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Speaker 2: Like I just wish we weren't so fucking extreme. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know what the answer is because everywhere you

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Speaker 2: look it's happening in some way. I don't know. Was

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Speaker 2: the answer bag and let's solve it.

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Speaker 1: I think the answer is I am the new prophet,

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Speaker 1: so me. I think the answer is what we've always said.

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Speaker 1: It's just getting your information from both sides.

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Speaker 2: For sure. But I mean, first of all, in some

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Speaker 2: of these cases, both sides are still not the whole story.

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Speaker 2: You have to find other kinds of outlets, I mean,

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Speaker 2: who are still legitimate and fact based and have fact

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Speaker 2: checkers and print retractions when they say something that's wrong.

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Speaker 2: But like the mainstream media isn't always covering everything, so

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Speaker 2: that makes things harder. And then also, like as we

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Speaker 2: talk to Chris bail about on this podcast, like just

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Speaker 2: being exposed to information that's different from your particular belief

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Speaker 2: system isn't necessarily going to convince you. You have to

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Speaker 2: have the willingness and open mindedness and the desire to

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Speaker 2: pursue actual objective truth, which is a really difficult thing

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Speaker 2: to do in a time when there's so much groupthink

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Speaker 2: and there's so much in group out group fighting, Like

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Speaker 2: how do you even get people to want that in

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Speaker 2: the first place, Like that's the thing I wrestle with.

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Speaker 1: I just wish they would release the hostages. Like I've

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Speaker 1: told you, I know one of them. I hope he's

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Speaker 1: still alive, and hopefully some semblance of peace can be

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Speaker 1: reached soon.

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Speaker 2: There are talks happening, like the news cycle is moving

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Speaker 2: so fast. I'm sure by the time we say this,

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Speaker 2: something new will be happening. Bernie Sanders is forcing a

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Speaker 2: vote today on something you know. I don't know what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen, but even by the time this comes out,

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Speaker 2: but we will see. Every human life is important, Jewish life,

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Speaker 2: Muslim life, all of these lives, they fucking matter.

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Speaker 3: Shall we talk to Michelle, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: I mean the amount of lives that you lived, even

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Speaker 2: just before you were eighteen. There's just so many like

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Speaker 2: parts of your life that are independently fascinating, but it's

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Speaker 2: all a part of this larger thing where you're preparing

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Speaker 2: for the end of the world. Right, you think the

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Speaker 2: end of the world is coming and you're literally going to.

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Speaker 4: Be a warrior?

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Speaker 2: Was it literal?

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Speaker 4: Literal?

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Speaker 5: Yes, Although my grandfather was very confusing because he thought

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Speaker 5: the world was going to end, or he said the

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Speaker 5: world was going to end in nineteen seventy seven, and

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Speaker 5: then the world did not.

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Speaker 3: Why do they give them a specific date.

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Speaker 2: It's never going to happen, guys, I know, it's like

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Speaker 2: spoiler alert.

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Speaker 4: It didn't.

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Speaker 3: And because you guys were so faithful, is what he said.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, kind of.

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Speaker 5: He would tell the Job story and he would say,

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Speaker 5: you know, Job had it well, I don't know if

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Speaker 5: you know or not, but Joe was going to Nineveh

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Speaker 5: to warn them, and then the people repented, and Job

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Speaker 5: was very upset because he basically would call the liar

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Speaker 5: because he was told that that and it wasn't the world,

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Speaker 5: it was the town that was going to be destroyed

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Speaker 5: with fire.

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Speaker 4: And then Jonah.

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Speaker 5: Goes to sulk because he is very disturbed that God

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Speaker 5: changed his mind. And he goes under this you know

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Speaker 5: tree and then this this or this branch and it ship.

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Speaker 5: I haven't read this in so many.

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Speaker 4: Years, but it shrivels.

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Speaker 5: And then Jonah's really upset because he's saying, well, now

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Speaker 5: you're I'm getting hit with the sun. And God said, well,

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Speaker 5: see I covered you, I provided shade, and then I.

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Speaker 4: Took it away.

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Speaker 5: I can do this either direction I want. I'm in

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Speaker 5: control of it all so, and the whole story about

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Speaker 5: the whale really with Jonah was just a very small

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Speaker 5: portion of you know, this threat that if you don't

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Speaker 5: go do this thing you're supposed to do, then you're

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Speaker 5: gonna get eaten by a whale and you're you know,

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Speaker 5: and all the different things that happens. So I was

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Speaker 5: raised more like that that God can change his mind.

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Speaker 5: God is mercurial, and my grandfather is a mercurial and

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Speaker 5: so if you're mercurial and you never write anything down,

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Speaker 5: you can pretty much say whatever you want and then

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Speaker 5: you know, God changed his mind.

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Speaker 2: Well, speaking of Bible stories about God changing his mind,

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Speaker 2: a story that was used to control you guys, which

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Speaker 2: also was used by the prophet that I believed in

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Speaker 2: was the story of Abraham and Isaac, which came up

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Speaker 2: a lot in your book. Can you tell us a

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Speaker 2: little bit about that.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of colts use this, or a

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Speaker 5: lot of high control groups. The story of Abraham is

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Speaker 5: he takes forever to have children. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 5: like God promises him that he's going to have descendants

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Speaker 5: as great as the stars in the sky and the

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Speaker 5: sand on the shore, and then he has this wife

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Speaker 5: who becomes very old. She's one hundred years old, or

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Speaker 5: he's one hundred and she's ninety or something, depending on

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Speaker 5: who which version you're looking at. And in any case,

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Speaker 5: he sleeps with his handmaid and then they end up

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Speaker 5: having a child, which is Ishmael. But then Sarah does

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Speaker 5: end up getting pregnant, and so they have a name Isaac.

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Speaker 5: And this is all to say that it took a

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Speaker 5: lot to get to the point where he had this son,

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Speaker 5: and it was his most beloved thing in the whole

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Speaker 5: entire world. And God says, if you really believe in me,

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Speaker 5: you need to kill your son, because I need to

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Speaker 5: know that I am first. There should be no other

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Speaker 5: gods before me, not even your son. So Abraham takes

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Speaker 5: Isaac on a hike up to a mountain so he

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Speaker 5: can tie him down on the altar and slaughter him.

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Speaker 5: I don't know what Sarah thought about this, but Isaac

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Speaker 5: goes up there and then Abraham takes the knife and

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Speaker 5: he's about to kill Isaac, and an angel grabs his

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Speaker 5: wrist and won't let him kill his son. But the

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Speaker 5: point of the story is that he would have killed

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Speaker 5: his son, and.

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Speaker 4: God can change his mind. But God can also test you.

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Speaker 5: And so we were taught that our parents could kill

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Speaker 5: us because if God asked them to, and that that's

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Speaker 5: what they were required to do.

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Speaker 4: So our mom.

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Speaker 5: Believed that she was asked to give up her children

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Speaker 5: to the group, and that she was devoted to all

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Speaker 5: the children, not just like all the children who needed attention,

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Speaker 5: and that she was not supposed to give attention to

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Speaker 5: her particular children because that was not God's will.

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Speaker 2: Wrote that you had fears around actually being killed by

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Speaker 2: maybe your grandpa or something.

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Speaker 5: Well, I took that very literally. And our grandfather was

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Speaker 5: very violent, but he also, I mean, he yelled a lot,

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Speaker 5: and he was very dramatic, and he would make threats.

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Speaker 5: And I don't know that he actually ever committed those

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Speaker 5: kinds of crimes. I don't have any evidence that he did.

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Speaker 5: But as a young child, you don't know that, yeah, right. So,

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Speaker 5: and we were often intense, and we were often taken

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Speaker 5: on these scary hikes, and so I thought that, I mean,

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Speaker 5: we were often told that that is what God might

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Speaker 5: ask of us, and we had to be willing to

252
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Speaker 5: listen to this what they call the still Small Voice

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Speaker 5: of God Yes Yes.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise known as OCD.

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Speaker 1: There was you know, the like the Book of Revelation

256
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Speaker 1: or I think you have your Bible Versus down like

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Speaker 1: I do not, but there was somewhere in the Bible

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Speaker 1: that was like mothers will be against daughter, and daughter

259
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Speaker 1: against yes, brother and whatever. And that was always like

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Speaker 1: like just thrashed into our brains, like it's the solvent

261
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Speaker 1: that like dissolves relationships and attachments and makes it so

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Speaker 1: that there's nothing safe really on the.

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Speaker 5: Tests and even during the New Testaments that Jesus like

264
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Speaker 5: when he became fishers of Men, saying that you must

265
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Speaker 5: turn back on your parents, you must turn your back

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Speaker 5: on everything, because yeah, there's no attachment that can be

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Speaker 5: other than your attachment to the leader, which they say

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Speaker 5: is attachment to God. But it's the leader who represents

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Speaker 5: God right, it requires your loyalty.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, your mom had a lot of frustration

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Speaker 2: with your mom reading the book. I know obviously she

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Speaker 2: was very indoctrinated herself, but it just seems like warmth

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Speaker 2: and true care, the way adults should provide to a kid,

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Speaker 2: was something that was very much lacking in your life.

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Speaker 2: And I assume the lives of your siblings or the

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Speaker 2: other kids in the group somewhat. You know, it seems

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Speaker 2: like you have this constant sense that you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: be suffering, you're supposed to be sacrificing, you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: be uncomfortable. Your dad also used his military training to

280
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Speaker 2: o put you guys in boot camp. But yeah, do

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Speaker 2: you feel like you just grew up feeling like you

282
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Speaker 2: had to be uncomfortable or you were doing something wrong.

283
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Speaker 5: I think this is a fairly common tactic as well.

284
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Speaker 5: Sleep deprivation, food deprivation, Like if you are constantly deprived,

285
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Speaker 5: you are much more susceptible to You can call it

286
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Speaker 5: brainwashing or corrosion. I can say that my younger sister

287
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Speaker 5: was saying to me recently that she said, did you ever,

288
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Speaker 5: like one single time feel cared for as a kid.

289
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Speaker 5: You know, she's had sort of her own like a

290
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Speaker 5: lot of questions because she has children, and her children

291
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Speaker 5: are late teenagers now, And she said, I've worked so

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Speaker 5: hard to be the opposite. I wonder if I've gone

293
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Speaker 5: too far, you know, those kinds of questions.

294
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Speaker 4: But she said, I'm.

295
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Speaker 5: Just wondering, you know, did you ever feel did you

296
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Speaker 5: ever feel like anyone cared about you? And I said, well,

297
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Speaker 5: I kind of thought loosely that Aunt Bernice might have

298
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Speaker 5: and she's like, I barely even remember that, you know,

299
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Speaker 5: because that was like we were all both very young,

300
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Speaker 5: but I was a little old than she was, so

301
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Speaker 5: and she just said, no one ever told me I

302
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:55,079
Speaker 5: love you my whole entire upbringing. And I said, yes,

303
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Speaker 5: that was my experience too, And I think that that

304
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Speaker 5: was to make us reliant upon God's love. So I

305
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 5: think if you take all that away from children, and so, yeah,

306
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Speaker 5: my dad was doing boot camp. Now, did he think

307
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Speaker 5: he was doing us a favor? Probably, honestly, because if

308
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Speaker 5: you're strong, you know, like the song like a Boy

309
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Speaker 5: Called Sue, where it's this idea that he's called Sue

310
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Speaker 5: so that he could become really tough. I think my

311
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Speaker 5: dad just really believed that it was a tough world

312
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Speaker 5: out there and that we were going to have to survive.

313
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Speaker 5: And you know, he wasn't doing anybody any favors, like

314
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Speaker 5: giving you attention or listening. You know, they were very

315
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Speaker 5: against crying, they're very against emotions. It was also a

316
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Speaker 5: different era than it is now. There was not I

317
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Speaker 5: don't think the general culture had very much patience for

318
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Speaker 5: children's feelings.

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Speaker 2: Tough love.

320
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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, so we were raised to not have that.

321
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Speaker 5: And my younger brother too, Like he's been talking a

322
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Speaker 5: lot about some of the things that he felt, but

323
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Speaker 5: you know, just when he got he was up in

324
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Speaker 5: a train, he fell down and he couldn't move. He's like,

325
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Speaker 5: I was paralyzed for like six weeks. That we never

326
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Speaker 5: got medical care. You know, just those kinds of things.

327
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Speaker 5: And I hadn't even really known about that. And he

328
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Speaker 5: also said Dad used to come in and like hunched

329
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Speaker 5: me in the face. And it wasn't until I read

330
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Speaker 5: your book, Like I didn't know that was happening to

331
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Speaker 5: you because he thought it was because he had done

332
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Speaker 5: something wrong and he was the boy and like so

333
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Speaker 5: it was just a lot we didn't know that was

334
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Speaker 5: going on, and we.

335
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Speaker 4: Were all having such disparate experiences.

336
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Speaker 2: Can you tell us about there was a fire that

337
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Speaker 2: kind of led to you living on the mountain? Why

338
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Speaker 2: was that what happened?

339
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Speaker 5: I mean, this is the story I was told at

340
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Speaker 5: the time. I think that they're related. It may not

341
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 5: be the only reason, but we didn't have anywhere to live.

342
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Speaker 5: But we were going on one of the trips and

343
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Speaker 5: because there were so many of us little kids, and

344
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Speaker 5: not just our nuclear family, but there was another family

345
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Speaker 5: who were leaders, and their little kids were there, and

346
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Speaker 5: so there was something a camper called the monitor. And

347
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Speaker 5: I wasn't in the monitor at the time. I was

348
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Speaker 5: in the bus with my dad and so were my sisters.

349
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Speaker 5: But my brother was in the monitor, and so our

350
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,360
Speaker 5: personal belongings and we didn't have a home anymore, so

351
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 5: we were Everything we owned was in this camper, and

352
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Speaker 5: so we were. That was just one of the vehicles

353
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Speaker 5: that was on the trip. I think it was Kentucky, though,

354
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Speaker 5: because I verified this at some point. So and the

355
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,600
Speaker 5: monitor caught fire and it burned up, and my brother

356
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 5: barely got out he was three, and every single thing

357
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,600
Speaker 5: we owned burned up. We had no clothes, and so

358
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Speaker 5: when we got to the mountain and we just moved it,

359
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 5: it's like we had nothing. And so now we weren't

360
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Speaker 5: going to go back to school anyway. But at the

361
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 5: time it was sort of I was raised to believe

362
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 5: this was like the separation of the wheat and shaft,

363
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 5: like God destroyed our past life so that we could

364
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Speaker 5: begin anew.

365
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Speaker 4: I do not think the fire was on purpose.

366
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Speaker 5: I truly think it was an accident, but it served

367
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 5: as a nice allegory or metaphor for my grandfather to say, Look,

368
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Speaker 5: your old lives are burned up.

369
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Speaker 4: You have nothing.

370
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Speaker 5: Now God will lead you through the desert into this

371
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 5: new world.

372
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Speaker 1: It seems so much harder to go from a somewhat

373
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Speaker 1: normal life to that sort of life than just always

374
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Speaker 1: being there, Like going to a public school with like

375
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Speaker 1: quote unquote normal kids and then kind of being snatched

376
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Speaker 1: away from you.

377
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Speaker 3: That seems really, really hard.

378
00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 5: I feel that leaving that world and starting over at

379
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,679
Speaker 5: the Mountain was excruciating, and I had a lot of

380
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 5: very harsh feelings about it. The Mountain brought its own culture,

381
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 5: and so when I wrote this book, I decided to

382
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 5: focus on our years on the Mountain because it felt

383
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 5: like two completely different stories what happened before. Plus I

384
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,119
Speaker 5: was old enough once we got to the Mountain to

385
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 5: have some ability to construct a reliable narration.

386
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Speaker 4: Before that, I feel like a lot of what we.

387
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,240
Speaker 5: Were experiences experiencing was in bits and pieces. And I've

388
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 5: heard a lot of story since then, because, like I said,

389
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,760
Speaker 5: I have heard from so many former members and not

390
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 5: one single one of them has questioned, like the authenticity

391
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,160
Speaker 5: of my tale. And it's very interesting because my family

392
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 5: of origin, not my younger brother and sister, but my

393
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 5: dad and my older sister both are just like, well,

394
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,800
Speaker 5: that's not what happened. And it made me feel a

395
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,800
Speaker 5: little crazy because I'm like, I've talked to a lot

396
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 5: of people and I'm trying to get the story straight

397
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 5: and things like I remembered that I would try to

398
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,159
Speaker 5: like verify the details those things my dad would verify,

399
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 5: like he would say, like, this is exactly the date

400
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 5: of this is where we were when the monitor caught

401
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,679
Speaker 5: on fire and all that, so like he would do

402
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,439
Speaker 5: that kind of thing. But then I think my interpretation

403
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 5: he thinks is off right, which is fine. I mean,

404
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,639
Speaker 5: everyone has different perspectives and there's multiple truths, right, and

405
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 5: my older sister certainly didn't have all this experiences that

406
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 5: I did.

407
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 4: But I think that at the end of the day.

408
00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 5: What has been a shock to me is that so

409
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 5: many former members will come and tell me the same

410
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 5: story but a different version, adult version of it, and

411
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 5: they'll say, oh, I remember you performing in this, I

412
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 5: remember you doing this, or I remember this is what

413
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 5: I was doing on that trip, and then they would

414
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 5: tell me their story of what they were doing, which

415
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,679
Speaker 5: is completely compatible, but it was just a whole different experience.

416
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 5: I'll just add that the man that I married, his

417
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,919
Speaker 5: name is Scott, and he will not mind that I

418
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 5: said this, because I asked him if.

419
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 4: I could relay these stories.

420
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,959
Speaker 5: But he was raised in a quote normal family, and

421
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 5: his family did not know what was going on, and

422
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,879
Speaker 5: he was seven when he joined. And so it's been

423
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 5: very interesting during all the years that I knew. And

424
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,399
Speaker 5: we didn't spend most of our marriage talking about this,

425
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 5: it really was. And how I was got interested in

426
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 5: telling the story that I started asking him questions, like

427
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,280
Speaker 5: I think both of us were just like, well, never

428
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:07,160
Speaker 5: speak of this again.

429
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 4: It's probably not that healthy.

430
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 5: But in any case, he felt that he still received

431
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 5: love and care at home, and so he was very

432
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 5: drawn to the group because it was exciting and he

433
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,160
Speaker 5: felt important and he felt like he had the secret

434
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,159
Speaker 5: and all those things, but he didn't feel deprived, and

435
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 5: he didn't feel deprived how much later, and he did

436
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 5: stay tug. He was well in his twenties, but and

437
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 5: he didn't never kiss a girl or do anything, and

438
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 5: he'd never you know, he was he did.

439
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,600
Speaker 4: The whole celibate thing.

440
00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,119
Speaker 5: That all of the stuff that my grandfather wanted, but

441
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 5: he didn't feel that he wasn't hungry, for example, you know,

442
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 5: because he wasn't right like you mean literally like physically hungry.

443
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to hear a bit about that. You know,

444
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,200
Speaker 2: when you first get there, because this is a very

445
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,679
Speaker 2: major shift. You had been on the road all the time.

446
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 2: You know, you'd been performing all the time. You'd been

447
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 2: around other people, even if you weren't having normal interactions

448
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 2: with them. You were jumping out of bushes, you know,

449
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: and now you're totally isolated in this mountain area. But

450
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 2: you guys were very poor, Like you said, you were

451
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 2: very hungry. Like what was this transition like for you?

452
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,960
Speaker 2: And how did it become a thing where you were

453
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,880
Speaker 2: constantly like learning about the woods and becoming a survivalist almost.

454
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 4: Was with anything.

455
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 5: There are many different stages of that process. It was

456
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,680
Speaker 5: a very cold and wet winter when we first got there,

457
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 5: so we were snowed in quite a bit. I think

458
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,000
Speaker 5: that at the very beginning, I felt very grateful that

459
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 5: we were going to stay somewhere, Like I didn't like

460
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 5: being on the road very much because it was I

461
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 5: was always disoriented.

462
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: I didn't.

463
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 4: I never knew where I was. I felt very confused.

464
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 5: So even though we were around a whole group of people,

465
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,600
Speaker 5: it was still very you know, you're sleeping intense and

466
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 5: then it's raining and you're climbing under the bus and

467
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 5: you're doing you know, so that it felt very physically.

468
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 5: There was a lot of physical hardship, So being there

469
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,159
Speaker 5: felt hopeful to me at the very beginning. And I

470
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 5: also think that each of my sibbings would have a

471
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 5: very different experience with this, because we were at various

472
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 5: points kind of shipped off sometimes to go distill, to

473
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 5: go on a trip, but only one of us at

474
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 5: a time with our grandfather, So my sister and my

475
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 5: older sister went first, and so she was gone during

476
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 5: that like for summer, and there was just various times

477
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 5: where we were separated, and then some of us would

478
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 5: go stay with our grammar, would go down to stan

479
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 5: feleepe Mexico and sleep on their dirt there and prothetize there.

480
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 5: So it wasn't as if we never left the mountain.

481
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 5: My parents didn't leave very much. They would take turns

482
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 5: driving us down the hill to do whatever school that

483
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 5: they wouldn't let us go to school. And there's a

484
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 5: school actually in Rightwood we could have gone to that

485
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 5: we could have gotten to, but we never went.

486
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 4: We didn't even like visit.

487
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,719
Speaker 5: I didn't see that school till years later. But I

488
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 5: think that that for me, it was very jarring. But

489
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 5: then I liked the freedom of being able to get

490
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 5: to know a place and to not have restrictions so

491
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 5: other than this like generic like set of details of

492
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 5: where we couldn't walk past. So the property itself in

493
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 5: the mountain was I believe, only sixteen acres, but there's

494
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 5: seven hundred thousand acres of National forests that July. People

495
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 5: don't know it's Ellie County and yeah, so seven hundred

496
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 5: thousand acres, and it is parceled off, some of it

497
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 5: to camps. You know, the people lease it to be used,

498
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of restrictions on what you can

499
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 5: do with the land. You can't make money on it,

500
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 5: for example. And so I understood as a little kid

501
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,160
Speaker 5: that there were other camps, and there was the only

502
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 5: phone we had. It was a party line, so like

503
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 5: different camps at different places were connected.

504
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 4: To that phone. We weren't allowed to use that.

505
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm still listening we weren't allowed to use the phone.

506
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 5: But if you're listening and you're not making a phone call,

507
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 5: so you can, yeah, get away with that a little bit.

508
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

509
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I think that at the beginning, it felt

510
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 5: like we were getting ready for the apocalypse and this

511
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 5: was going to come any moment. And I don't think

512
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 5: it was until probably I was getting closer to puberty,

513
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,479
Speaker 5: that it felt like this might be interminable. Like I

514
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 5: don't know that I thought that it was permanent. I

515
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 5: think that it felt like just another Yeah, you were just.

516
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: Getting ready at the end of the world, like there's

517
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: a purpose here, and yeah, that's a way different feeling

518
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 1: than oh, I'm living in a mountain.

519
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 5: You don't think you're going to grow up like I

520
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,160
Speaker 5: never thought I would become an adult. Yeah, And if

521
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 5: you're raised in these kinds of high control groups, I

522
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 5: think that's part of it, just thinking.

523
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: That it's hard for me to think of like three

524
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: months from now. I don't have that in my brain.

525
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: It was always like Jesus is coming back today and it.

526
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 4: Could be any day.

527
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 5: The trumpet's going to sound and then you know, and

528
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 5: you can get left behind.

529
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 4: So you have to like be.

530
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,399
Speaker 5: Watching it making sure that other people aren't taking to

531
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 5: heaven and you're not.

532
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you ever if everybody ever left the house

533
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: without you knowing? That was a scary moment where I

534
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 1: got a second coming, right right.

535
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that would never occurred to me. I thought

536
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: the second Coming was coming, but I didn't imagine being

537
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: left behind. You must have to be a part of it.

538
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 5: I am.

539
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: Obviously included going to celestial kingdom.

540
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 4: Baby.

541
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I do feel like Mormonism gives a little

542
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 1: bit more grace.

543
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, if you're Mormon, you're going. Yeah where like.

544
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: Like it was like, no one's going even in this

545
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: and my religion. I was like, even us, we probably

546
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 1: aren't going well.

547
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: In fairness, if you're Mormon and you go to the

548
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: temple and you do everything right, you're going. But when

549
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 2: it came to the like prophet era, yes, I was like, well,

550
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: I'm one of the like three chosen people in the

551
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 2: whole world, so I'm going, yes, definitely, definitely going.

552
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just want to hear.

553
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: A little bit more about this part of your life

554
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: because it is so fascinating you. Basically you could go

555
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: on the show alone, which have you ever considered going

556
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 2: on the show alone. Do you know what that is?

557
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: Oh, yes, the actual TV show?

558
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that shows like oh oh.

559
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, no, of course.

560
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 5: Lots of people contacted me and like you should go

561
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 5: on this show. I actually think I would do very

562
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 5: well in this show. Yes, but I did not. I

563
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 5: don't know that I want to relive so.

564
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 2: This is It does not feel like a happy time.

565
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 4: No, honestly, it doesn't.

566
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 5: And I do like the show alone, by the way,

567
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 5: I'm not I have no invested interest in one way

568
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 5: or another, have like of the company that like runs

569
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 5: it or anything. But I have enjoyed what I have

570
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 5: watched of it. And one of my adult daughters she,

571
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 5: you know, she's like, Mom, you really have to apply

572
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 5: for this, Like, we would love to see you do this.

573
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 5: But I think that it was not a happy time.

574
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 5: But I think it's because I don't know that survival

575
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 5: training has to be that bad. But I really felt

576
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 5: like love was so restricted and so absent that it

577
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 5: just it. I felt like I was just deprived of

578
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 5: touch and deprived of food and deprived of water, and

579
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 5: it was freezing and it was like, you know, we were

580
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 5: dropped in the desert I'd.

581
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 4: Get sunburned because I'm like a white girl.

582
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 5: Like it would just be like and then you know

583
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 5: when you're really sunburned, then you get so cold because

584
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 5: you're burned, and it's like it's it's just a really

585
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 5: really uncomfortable like it's very, very uncomfortable to sleep without

586
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 5: a sleeping bag in the desert when it's freezing.

587
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: Well, you definitely subjected to like the most possible uncomfortable circumstances.

588
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't like, you know, Mom's like, let's go

589
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: on a camping trip and we'll have sleeping bags and

590
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: tents and little handwarmers. You know, it's like, oh, I'm

591
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,920
Speaker 2: going to be moving these rocks from here to here

592
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 2: in the hot desert sun for twelve hours straight. And

593
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: if I'm thirsty, well I'll just get it from this

594
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 2: cactus or whatever.

595
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: Misery was like the highest form of existence.

596
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 5: I think that it was training us to be truly

597
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 5: subservient to God. When I say I think it was,

598
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 5: I don't really believe that, but at the time, I

599
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 5: think that that was what the purpose was. And I

600
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 5: don't think my parents, and I will say this, I

601
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 5: truly don't believe my parents were thought that they were

602
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 5: hurting us. I really truly believed that they thought that

603
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 5: they were preparing us, and that it was really what

604
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 5: needed to happen. Yeah, And had I not gotten sick,

605
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 5: and that is kind of a major shift in my life,

606
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 5: is that I got this life threatening illness that made

607
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 5: it really difficult for me to stay on the mountain.

608
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 4: I got shipped to a.

609
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 5: Hospital and then from that point on it was three

610
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 5: and a half years to really till I could come

611
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 5: back to the mountain.

612
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 4: And if I hadn't had.

613
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 5: That particular isolation, like literal isolation from the community I

614
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 5: was born, I don't know that I could have seen

615
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 5: it with a wider lens, and I think it would

616
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 5: have been really difficult. I was the first person who

617
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 5: was ever born there to leave, and I don't know

618
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 5: that I would have left if I hadn't gotten sick,

619
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 5: you know, because it shifted things from me.

620
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up. Can you generally tell

621
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: us why you were sick.

622
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 4: I can't tell you why I got sick.

623
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 5: I can tell you that my grandfather said that it

624
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 5: was because I wasn't godly. But I had a disease

625
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 5: called and I still do. Technically idiopathic thromicide apenia purpura,

626
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 5: which is an autoimmune disease. I was in the hematology

627
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 5: oncology ward of the hospital, which so with all the

628
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 5: leukemia kids. It was children's hospitals, was not with adults.

629
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 5: And the simple version is an autoimmune disease where your

630
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 5: body attacks itself. And so specifically, my platelets were being

631
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 5: covered by antibodies, and the antibodies mean that my spleen,

632
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 5: among other things, was.

633
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 4: Filtering the blood and destroying all the platelets.

634
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 5: And so I would bleed from like the smallest scratch,

635
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 5: and if I'd gotten like a head bump, then I

636
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 5: would just you know, bleed in my head, like I

637
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 5: would just die. So they put me in this room

638
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 5: in isolation because it was a while before they could

639
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 5: figure out was exactly what was wrong, and I couldn't

640
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 5: see other kids and or anybody. And then eventually they

641
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 5: figured it out what the problem was. But you know,

642
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 5: it's interesting, is Mormon girls get this disease too.

643
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: I mean, it's very.

644
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 5: Difficult to understand why there's no genetic component to it,

645
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 5: and they can't They've never been able to trace it

646
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 5: even since and I've done research since then, you know,

647
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 5: because when I was a kid. That means they certainly

648
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 5: could have discovered things since, right, But they don't know,

649
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 5: and it is possible.

650
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 4: There's theories on this.

651
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 5: This has not been proven because it's very hard to

652
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: do these kinds of tests quite honestly, which you can understand.

653
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 5: Why is that it could be the bodies response to abuse,

654
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 5: because and possibly the sexual abuse that I was experiencing too,

655
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 5: is that your body goes into defense mode to create

656
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 5: antibodies to push away all the bad things that are

657
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 5: happening to you, and then it just goes into overdrive.

658
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 5: But nobody knows. It's literally called idiopathic, meaning of unknown origin.

659
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 5: So you know, experts don't understand why. But there seems

660
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 5: to be a higher rate of girls than boys. So

661
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 5: they get it, and they get it right around puberty,

662
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 5: and so there's some seculation that sexual abuse might be

663
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 5: part of what brings it on. Certainly boys are sexual

664
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 5: abuse too, but none of the rates that girls are.

665
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 5: So just an interesting I don't know to this day,

666
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 5: I have no idea. But in my case, I got

667
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 5: better when they removed my spleen, and that was experimental.

668
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 5: It still works or doesn't work depending. You know, it's

669
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 5: very it depends on what other organs take over and

670
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 5: start doing, you know, the filtering. So my body didn't

671
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 5: stop putting antibodies, but they got rid of the spleen

672
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 5: and then they stopped getting filtered through.

673
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: But that that's so interesting. I just read this book

674
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: called Brain on Fire, which it sounds so similar, just

675
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: in that it's an autoimmune disease and for some reason

676
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 2: it mostly happens to girls and women. And in some

677
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: cases they can remove a particular thing, but if it's

678
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: not attributed to that, then they don't know how to

679
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: make it. Anyway, it's it's very similar. That was a

680
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: great book. But anyway, so you're in the hospital and

681
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: you're basically by yourself, like all the time, how old

682
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: were you?

683
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 4: I was ten?

684
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: You were only ten. Your mom wasn't like coming to

685
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: visit you.

686
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 5: My mom was the only one who would come, and

687
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 5: she couldn't come all the time.

688
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 4: And that's another thing.

689
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 5: So we were being supported by the Ronald McDonald House,

690
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: and I've been asked to do some work there this

691
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 5: this year up in January and February up in Idlewild

692
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 5: to work with you know, the kids and do some

693
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 5: sort of creative projects and some journaling and stuff.

694
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 4: It's something I'm so grateful for.

695
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 5: The support that that particular charity, you know, gave to

696
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 5: my family during that time. But I guess it wasn't

697
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 5: particularly uncommon that if a woman had other children or

698
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 5: possibly didn't there was no father or possibly you know,

699
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 5: that there were other children.

700
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: Who weren't getting visited to you.

701
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 5: I'd say that was uncommon, but it wasn't unheard of

702
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 5: my mom. I believe my mom came when she could,

703
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: but I mean I was down in Los Angeles, like

704
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 5: that's really far away from the mountain. My mom had

705
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 5: other kids, she had, she was working with other things.

706
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 5: My dad never once came to the hospital, and I

707
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 5: was there for about three and a half years. My

708
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 5: siblings never came to visit me. So eventually a boy

709
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 5: came to see me who was kind of like became

710
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 5: my first unspoken boyfriend. But I because I went back

711
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 5: to the I went back to Childn's hospital at sixteen,

712
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 5: but I had my surgery when I was thirteen and

713
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 5: a half closer to fourteen, and then I was technically

714
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 5: in remission after that.

715
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: Wow, so this period of not being around your grandpa

716
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: or your dad or all of the indoctrinated people, Like,

717
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: how did this sort of shape your thinking? I mean,

718
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 2: you were still quite young but got to wear.

719
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: A farah face at wig for a second.

720
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I was. Well, I was exposed to television.

721
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 5: But it's whatever TV that they allowed you to have

722
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 5: on in a childn's hospital, like for sure, Bonanza and

723
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 5: Big Valley, things like that Price is right. So this

724
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 5: was not a religious hospital, but whatever they allowed. I

725
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 5: don't know if they had filters on the DVR, if

726
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 5: they just we didn't have controls, so I don't know

727
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 5: who turned on what was on.

728
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 4: But so I was exposed to television during that time.

729
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 4: I didn't like it.

730
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 5: Because I wasn't raised with it, so it felt very

731
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 5: jarring to me. And then I also had been taught

732
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,479
Speaker 5: the script, and I had been taught to see the

733
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 5: world as evil and so yes, there were people who

734
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 5: were kind to me, certainly at the hospital, but I

735
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 5: was trained to be skeptical, so I think I had.

736
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: A lot of anxiety about it.

737
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 5: And there were times like I was dismissed from Tooldn's

738
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 5: hospital for a little bit and then I was sent

739
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 5: to LOMLNDA, for example, and one of the boys, who

740
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 5: I'm calling you boys like I said, they were really

741
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 5: men who lived with us, came to see me at

742
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 5: that particular hospital because it wasn't as far away from

743
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 5: the mountain. And there was this question of who he was,

744
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 5: you know, because he was like probably twenty six or something,

745
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 5: and he said, tell him, I'm your brother. So then

746
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 5: I said, oh, this is my brother. And because I

747
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 5: wasn't sure what it was allowed to say, so I

748
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 5: felt like there was still a lot of lying going

749
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 5: on and the things that we were allowed to talk

750
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 5: about are not talk about. My father was on the

751
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 5: trip at that point, so this man Jim came to

752
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 5: visit me, and I just feel like it was so confusing,

753
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: Like I was having bow marrow tests and like transplant

754
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 5: stuff and like stuff that was very painful and very confusing,

755
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 5: and it's.

756
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 4: Just a very it was a very dark time for me.

757
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: Well, it also sounds like there was a lot of

758
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: accusations of like your sunning and that's why this is

759
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: happening too.

760
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I.

761
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 5: Mean I was definitely scapegoaded, and I was told that

762
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 5: when I believe God enough that I would be made well.

763
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: No pressure.

764
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: So your grandpa, he's gonna live to be five hundred.

765
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: He's a prophet keeping it all together.

766
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: He dies all of a.

767
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: Sudden, and what the heck was that like? And what

768
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: was the community's reaction to it?

769
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 5: So I was still sick at the time, but I

770
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 5: was getting close to having my surgery, so I was

771
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 5: on pregnant zone, and sometimes when I was on predudiczone,

772
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 5: i'd be able to be out of the hospital. And

773
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 5: so I was out of the hospital when he died,

774
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 5: and he did very abruptly ad a heart attack or something,

775
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 5: although they didn't ever tell us what it was. Later

776
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 5: I found out, but it was he died quickly, and

777
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 5: so he wasn't going through a sickness period, and he

778
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 5: was in his seventies, so he wasn't like a supersheper

779
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 5: old man like.

780
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 4: He was still very, very physically active prior to his.

781
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 5: Death, and it was so shocking, and my mom went

782
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 5: into silence. Basically, I think people thought he was going

783
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 5: to get resurrected. That's what I believed would happen. So

784
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 5: I waited for and I didn't know if it would

785
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 5: be like Jesus's resurrection, like you know, with the tomb,

786
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 5: or if it was, he would come down like from

787
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 5: the sky, kind of reverse Elijah or something, and like,

788
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 5: you know, he would come down from the clouds. So

789
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 5: I personally was waiting for that, not because I loved

790
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 5: my grandmother, my grandfather per se, but because I felt

791
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 5: like that clearly had I mean, none of the rest

792
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 5: of us had disappeared, so like there clearly was a

793
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 5: God's plan, and I really thought that would happen.

794
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 4: I just heard from someone yesterday.

795
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 5: He was talking about my my version of the funeral

796
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 5: because he listened to this on audiobook and and he

797
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 5: was saying that the funeral is so confusing because it

798
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 5: was like it was this horrible thing that this man

799
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:16,879
Speaker 5: had died, but there was also this hope.

800
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 4: And they were playing his voice.

801
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 5: On it on a recording, you know, like kind of

802
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 5: putting it out on like speakers during this, and I

803
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 5: guess I just really kind of thought I literally expected

804
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 5: him to rise from the coffin.

805
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it surprised me.

806
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: That they had they had an open casket, and thought

807
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: that that shocked me because you know, you I just

808
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: watched the documentary Mother God, where they're carrying around this

809
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: woman's corpse or forever and they're like disappear already, like

810
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: go up and like get like they they think this

811
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 1: prophet's going to like disappear, so to just really show

812
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: the whole community the dead body, I was like, what

813
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: a choice?

814
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 5: Really think that they thought the dead body was going

815
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 5: to come out of that coffin, right, Yeah, you know,

816
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 5: he was preserved and stuff like. It wasn't like a

817
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 5: back alley burial like he and he's buried it for

818
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 5: his lawn. But I think that that really thought that

819
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 5: that was going to happen. And to me as a

820
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 5: as a I mean I wasn't that young. I was

821
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 5: almost fourteen. I really believed all of it. And so

822
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 5: then of course there was this question of what's next.

823
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 5: And my grandfather had three sons before my mom, and

824
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 5: it was supposed to be a male who's going to

825
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 5: take over. And he did have his right hand man

826
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 5: who did take over. But that man, you know, was

827
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 5: like basically like a priest. He was completely celibate. He

828
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 5: was close to my grandfather's age, maybe just five years

829
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 5: younger or something, you know, and he was he took over.

830
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 5: But I think that there was this jocking of like

831
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 5: this this fear that this whole thing might implode, right

832
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 5: if it.

833
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 4: Wasn't like held in control.

834
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 5: So on some level, things got even stricter for probably

835
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 5: the next five years, like and that those were the

836
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 5: just those were my teenage years, you know, like there

837
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 5: were the years that like things got really.

838
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: Harsh, but didn't did people's faith waiver? I mean more

839
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: people like, wait, what.

840
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 4: It's an interesting question.

841
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 5: I asked that of some of the adults. I have

842
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 5: an aunt who married one of my uncles, so she's

843
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 5: not biologically my amp, but she is. You know, she

844
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 5: she knew me before she knew my family, before I

845
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 5: was born. She said that she just believed that God

846
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 5: was in control.

847
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

848
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 5: I mean, as a as a kid, I think I

849
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 5: believed God was in control. But also like we were

850
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 5: always told about this, the earthquake, you know, the big

851
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 5: Son of Calf for in your earth. But there was, yeah,

852
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 5: the big one, and we did the mountain that like

853
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 5: where I slept was literally on the Saint Andrea's fault.

854
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 4: So, I mean, it's so scary.

855
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 5: So I just thought, like just like an earthquake or

856
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 5: a fire or whatever, I was just waiting for the

857
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 5: next thing to happen. And then my mom got more

858
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 5: into survival training at that point, like really intensely, and

859
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 5: she she really really did love her father, like I

860
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 5: think she was really struck and may.

861
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 4: Look back at this.

862
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 5: I also suspect that my mother, and it's only because

863
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 5: nobody ever used language like this back in the day,

864
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 5: But since her death, I've thought about this more and

865
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 5: asked so many people. This possible my mom was on

866
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 5: the spectrum of some sort like autistic because she really

867
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 5: didn't she didn't.

868
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 4: Like to be touched. She didn't she was very like

869
00:37:59,280 --> 00:37:59,760
Speaker 4: the way.

870
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 5: That she studied something was so intensely, like she could

871
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 5: memorize all of those scientific terms and all that. I

872
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 5: suspect that she perhaps was just a very, very very

873
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 5: focused person. So she didn't cry. She just got super silent.

874
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 5: She got super focused, and she got super like, we're

875
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 5: going to create the vision that my father wanted to

876
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 5: bring out. And even up until her death, she said,

877
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 5: I you know, she said, I would never have disappointed

878
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 5: my father, Like she followed what her father's commands were until.

879
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: She died, like a lot of what he'd said came

880
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: out to be a lie. And she kind of defended that.

881
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 4: And absolutely she defined her. They did like he lied

882
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 4: about so many things and so many of our biological

883
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 4: family research because he said he had a PhD. He

884
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 4: just said a bunch of things. He was so uneducated.

885
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 4: He was.

886
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 5: When I went to college, I remember saying to my grandpa,

887
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 5: was not educating because like he didn't have vocabulary, he

888
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 5: didn't have I was like, there's no way. And like

889
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 5: I was seventeen and was like, there's no way that

890
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 5: the things you know, he said he was in silent films,

891
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 5: he had a different name. He was like, he just

892
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 5: had this whole legend about how he used to be

893
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 5: a Hollywood star.

894
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 3: My god, he's pathological.

895
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: Oh sure, And your mom would be presented with evidence

896
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 2: and she couldn't.

897
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 4: She couldn't that. She just said, well, there's just things

898
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 4: we don't understand.

899
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

900
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 5: And my mom was I mean, my mom was brilliant, truly,

901
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 5: Like her ability to learn was brilliant. But she still

902
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 5: would say that the world was six thousand years old.

903
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 5: Oh fun, you know, so like she understood evolution like

904
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 5: she could and there's no way she didn't know it.

905
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, but she wouldn't.

906
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 5: She wouldn't ever acknowledge it, and so I think that's

907
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 5: how she was with her father. She must have known,

908
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 5: but she had a party line. And the party line

909
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 5: was just because we don't know, like things about the

910
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 5: fossils and stuff, those were sent to tempt us or

911
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 5: you know, like so that we would challenge our faith.

912
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 5: And so the things that people were finding out about

913
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 5: her father were just a challenge.

914
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: Oh my, that's so fuck trading. That makes me want

915
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 3: to kick something.

916
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 5: It was very difficult, even at the end, because we

917
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 5: have a I have a cousin by logical cousin, I

918
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 5: want to my grandfather's granddaughters who is married to a woman,

919
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 5: and the family just doesn't acknowledge her. And she's changed

920
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: her name, and like she's a different last name. And

921
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 5: I have my father's last name, so I use my

922
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 5: birth name, doubt, but it's not the leader's name because

923
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 5: my mom took his name, and so I you know,

924
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 5: I'm on the maternal line, so I don't care the

925
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 5: great man's last name. So I didn't feel as like

926
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 5: necessary to, like, you know, if I had his last name,

927
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 5: I would have changed it too. But there was a

928
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 5: lot of things even at the end, and they could

929
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 5: just deny that she even existed, you know, like like

930
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 5: she was you know, and and that makes you crazy too.

931
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 5: I was getting I was with my brother and I

932
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 5: was saying, we have a cousin, you know, I want

933
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 5: you to say her name. Like I was just like

934
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 5: you know, and I mean not like super mean, but

935
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 5: I was also like, come on, mom, like why can't

936
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 5: we talk about this?

937
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

938
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 4: She would just shut it down.

939
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 5: So that's what that was kind of her defense mechanism.

940
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 5: She wasn't She didn't yell, she didn't hit. My mom

941
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 5: was in violin in those ways, but she would just

942
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 5: shut down.

943
00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 4: And I'm not, do not.

944
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 5: Acknowledge us something that you were trying to, Like, there

945
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 5: were so many parts of my life she couldn't acknowledge.

946
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you when you were a kid, you were you

947
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 2: wrote that you had your book that you literally would

948
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: write down contradictions from the Bible in like you were

949
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 2: such a questioner at such a young age. And I'm curious,

950
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: at what point did that questioning start to really bubble

951
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: up and become more real for you?

952
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 4: So my guess is it was always there.

953
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 5: I when I did my book tour, all this was

954
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 5: public and I went I was in San Francisco, and

955
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 5: a woman came who she and her two siblings were there.

956
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 4: They're older than us. But she came up to me

957
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 4: afterwards and she said, and she started crying, and she said,

958
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 4: you were not a bad kid. Your sister was not

959
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 4: better than you. It wasn't that. It's just that she

960
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 4: did everything she was told.

961
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 5: From the time you were like two, just would go

962
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 5: around and try to get people to look at you

963
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 5: and tell you, and you would just.

964
00:41:58,719 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: Like you know.

965
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 5: So I think that problem and I was rare. I

966
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 5: really was raised by a community. I just don't think

967
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 5: that I ever had. My mom would never let us

968
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 5: have the same caregiver, so we were just passed around.

969
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 5: And for sure she was working and leaving us by

970
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 5: the time I was a week old, so we were

971
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 5: just I think I was two days old probably when

972
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 5: she just like walked out and said here.

973
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 4: But then after that she.

974
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 5: Would be gone for long periods of time, and we

975
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 5: didn't have we didn't have a grammar aunt or anyone

976
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 5: who was like one person who was raising us.

977
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 4: We would just whoever happened to be free or not

978
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 4: free whatever.

979
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 5: A lot of boys, and so it was just a

980
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 5: random and I think probably at a very young age,

981
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 5: I was trying to figure out the system, you know,

982
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 5: just to get my needs met. And so I'm guessing

983
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 5: by the time my earliest memories, I was.

984
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 4: Already doing all that.

985
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: It feels like there was a moment at the schoolhouse

986
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: when Uncle Steven has bot his name when he tried

987
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: to teach you a lesson and it kind of backfired.

988
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 4: Oh, that probably happened all the time.

989
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 3: There's something in the book where he's like tries to

990
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 3: make it.

991
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: Do you know what I dream what I'm talking about

992
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 1: when when he tries, a shooter comes in. Oh.

993
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 4: Yes, Now that was a little bit old for that.

994
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 5: I don't know to this day exactly, but I think

995
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 5: what he was trying to teach us. And I did

996
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 5: talk to my sister about this too, and everyone she

997
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 5: had a different story who she thought was the actual

998
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 5: gunman and because he was masked. I mean, I don't

999
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 5: really actually know the facts, which I don't say in

1000
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 5: the book who it was because I don't.

1001
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: Know someone came into the school with a mask.

1002
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it was actually on the mountain, So we

1003
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 5: were in the mess hall on the mountain when this happened.

1004
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 4: I believe that he set it up. This is my

1005
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 4: understanding too.

1006
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he passed during COVID, so I don't know

1007
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 5: for sure, but I, in fact, I called trying. My

1008
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 5: aunt answered and I said, would you mind asking him?

1009
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 5: Like before he was, I was like, do you mind

1010
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 5: asking him a few questions? And she was like, pretty

1011
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 5: nice about it because they didn't know my book was

1012
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 5: coming out.

1013
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: I said, I'm just so confused.

1014
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 5: About this thing that happened now as a teenager, and

1015
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 5: I've never been able to figure it out.

1016
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 4: Because you talked to him about it, and she was very.

1017
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 5: Gracious to me, but he was not in his right

1018
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 5: mind enough to answer, or he just didn't want to.

1019
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1020
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 5: And anyway, but my guess is he set it up,

1021
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 5: and then he was trying to teach us that eyewitnesses

1022
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 5: are unreliable.

1023
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 4: Now.

1024
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 5: The interesting thing about that, of course, is that I

1025
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 5: would have says are unreliable.

1026
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 4: That's true. Yes we are, and I am.

1027
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 5: And I wanted to put it in too, because of

1028
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 5: course I'm unreliable to the extent that there's no way

1029
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,319
Speaker 5: that my memory is capturing all the truths. I just

1030
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 5: hope that it's capturing some of the truths. But I

1031
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 5: think that it did backfire a little because I was

1032
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 5: paying a lot of attention and I wouldn't have been

1033
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 5: able to say everything right. And I've done not with

1034
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 5: a gun involved, but I've done a similar exercise in

1035
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 5: my college classroom where I had somebody come in, not violently,

1036
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 5: but and make a point and then hand me a note,

1037
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 5: and then I asked my students to say, what did

1038
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 5: that man say? What was he wearing? You know, that

1039
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 5: kind of stuff, Who was the man? And they someone

1040
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 5: would think they knew who he was even though they didn't,

1041
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 5: you know, and then they would make up a story

1042
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 5: about it. And it really made and I really feel

1043
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 5: like I sort of stole that from my uncle. But

1044
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 5: it was very interesting because I teach student reporters and

1045
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 5: I ran our student publications and so for journalists, and

1046
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,959
Speaker 5: I was like, how do you you know? And people

1047
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 5: thought would swear the shirt was black and other people.

1048
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 4: Would say it's red. I mean, that's big difference.

1049
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 5: People don't know because they're imposing their memory, right. So,

1050
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 5: and this was just another professor I had walk in

1051
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 5: the classroom. So it's not like I brought somebody off

1052
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 5: the street, and I had the person come in and

1053
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 5: say something really weird to me, like I'd written it

1054
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 5: down with it, and then he passed me a note

1055
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 5: and then I looked at it and I was I

1056
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 5: got upset, and then I was like, Okay, just work

1057
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 5: on your things.

1058
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 4: For a minute. And I was just being an actor

1059
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 4: and then you know, and.

1060
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 5: Then I was like, okay, oh my goodness, I don't

1061
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 5: even know what happened. Can you guys tell me what

1062
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 5: just happened? And I was like, can you write this down,

1063
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 5: you know whatever? And I did it, and then that experiment, yeah,

1064
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 5: and it was really interesting and just didn't do the trauma.

1065
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 4: Part of it.

1066
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: But like you wrote, you wrote down when your uncle

1067
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 1: did that, all the right answers. You saw who it was,

1068
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: what color his shirt was, what this was, what that was,

1069
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: what this was. And I feel I felt like in

1070
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: that moment in your story, I like clicked into like, oh,

1071
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: you're like critical thinking is coming back online and you're

1072
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: beginning to trust yourself a little bit.

1073
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think it was just a little bit.

1074
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 5: I think it's one of those stories. In retrospect, I

1075
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 5: feel like that was the beginning of me trusting myself.

1076
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 5: But I feel like the only things I knew were

1077
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 5: a very few facts. Really, Like, I'm sure there's lots

1078
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 5: of things I did not know. And I didn't know

1079
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 5: who it was. So that is something that is true

1080
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 5: to this day. And that wasn't one of his questions

1081
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 5: because he didn't expect you to know who it was.

1082
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,439
Speaker 5: That wasn't the point of the exercise. And whoever got

1083
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 5: the ski mask off or whatever I ended up happening.

1084
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 5: Like I said, I've heard multiple versions of who that

1085
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 5: person was and I still don't know, and.

1086
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: I my sye witnesses accounts of continued to be.

1087
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 5: Unreal, yes, exactly, And I don't know, and I don't

1088
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 5: even know that it really changes the story that much

1089
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 5: depending on who it was. But my sister married a

1090
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 5: boy who was with us in those days too, and

1091
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 5: so she had talked to him and like and so

1092
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 5: you know, she swore she knew who it was. But

1093
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 5: I had heard from somebody else it was somebody you know,

1094
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 5: that it was somebody else, and I didn't know.

1095
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 2: Memory tim rips me out.

1096
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so weird.

1097
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: I don't like it. I want to feel like I

1098
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: can hold on to a concreep. No, like understanding of

1099
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: something and it's going to be correct, but that's it's

1100
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:48,720
Speaker 2: not true.

1101
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: I've decided to just believe there's different timelines that hurks too.

1102
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 4: But there's also lots of different vantage points.

1103
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and there are, and so you we do see

1104
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 5: things differently. We also see color differently. Yeah, you know,

1105
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 5: and we also noticed that. I'm sure you've heard these studies.

1106
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 5: But like if you have like a guy in a

1107
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,879
Speaker 5: girla suit and you're asking someone to watch a ball

1108
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 5: being passed on a game, and they can't see the

1109
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 5: girla and it doesn't mean that they would necessarily deny

1110
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 5: it was there, but if you asked them over and

1111
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 5: over and ever, but there was a gorilla, right, they'd

1112
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 5: be like no, and they would really believe that. And

1113
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 5: I think that's such an important thing, is that they

1114
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 5: won't see the girla because it's not what they're looking for.

1115
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 5: And so with my sister, I choose to believe that.

1116
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 5: When she says that did not happen, I said, you can't.

1117
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 4: You cannot allow.

1118
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 5: That to have happened, like that is not something that

1119
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 5: you are willing because she's just she decided to stay.

1120
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 4: So she never left, and she's.

1121
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 5: Not an awful person, and by any means, she just

1122
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 5: believes that she's done the right thing and that you know,

1123
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 5: she's godly and I'm a sinner, and so she can't

1124
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 5: afford to believe. And she says that, for example, our

1125
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 5: grandfather loved her. And I talked to her while I

1126
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 5: was writing the book, because I she did agree for

1127
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 5: some reason. I honestly don't know why she agreed to

1128
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 5: be interviewed. Maybe because she was hoping, and I don't

1129
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 5: think she understood that I was writing a real book,

1130
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 5: like I think she that I was writing like you know,

1131
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 5: those memento like things that people were here. I know

1132
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 5: that they may made her for something and sent out

1133
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 5: to their family on an email, and so she, I think,

1134
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 5: probably wanted her story to be heard. And so I

1135
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 5: just told her, Hey, I'm working on a project and

1136
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 5: I just was wondering if I could ask you a

1137
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 5: few questions. Anyway, she told me that her our grandfather

1138
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 5: loved her, and I said, what do you mean he

1139
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 5: loved you? How do you know that? And she said

1140
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 5: he told me. I said, Grandpa told I was like

1141
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 5: blown away. And when I walked her to her car.

1142
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 5: I immediately called my sister, because this isn't very long ago.

1143
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 5: I was writing this in twenty twenty one, right, So

1144
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 5: I called Maria, our younger sister, and I said, did

1145
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 5: Graanvill love you?

1146
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 4: And she said, what the hell are you talking about? First,

1147
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 4: Grandpa didn't love me?

1148
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 5: I was like, Lauri says that gravel loved her, and

1149
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 5: we were both just like and I said, and we

1150
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 5: both said, well, maybe she believed. Maybe, And then we

1151
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 5: were both like, maybe he did. Maybe he loved his

1152
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 5: oldest grandchild or maybe that's what she needs to believe.

1153
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 5: And I feel like that's kind of.

1154
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 4: A what do you call it? Like there's no victims

1155
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 4: in that story, Like it's like.

1156
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 5: A harmless story. But there's other versions of things that

1157
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 5: I think would be more hard, but that one is like, yeah,

1158
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 5: so this this girl, this woman believes her grandfather loved her,

1159
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 5: and people believe what they need to believe.

1160
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I mean, we just we see that

1161
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 2: over and over and over again on this podcast, and

1162
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: it truly is so sad. Especially, I mean, you know,

1163
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: there was there was sexual abuse happening within your group,

1164
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: and was that something that was ever addressed or ever

1165
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 2: it was anyone ever held accountable.

1166
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 4: Not during my era.

1167
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 5: So the my younger sister says, she remembers the family

1168
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 5: coming together at some point, and she she said she

1169
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 5: knew what was happening to me, but she didn't really

1170
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 5: quite understand it. She says it didn't happen to her,

1171
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 5: so I'm going to believe that. But she said that

1172
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 5: she remembers our mom saying we like saying to her husband,

1173
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 5: our dad saying we can't let boys take.

1174
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:48,760
Speaker 4: Care of them anymore.

1175
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 5: But then all of us knew that that didn't change,

1176
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 5: like and maybe she meant it whatever later and this

1177
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 5: was verified by the whole legal team at Algonquin. Later

1178
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 5: there was much later. There was one of the leaders

1179
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 5: was sexually abusing young boys, boys who are about when

1180
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 5: I say, young eleven, ten to twelve maybe, And that

1181
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 5: man got caught and he ended up doing a plea

1182
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:16,760
Speaker 5: deal and went to prison.

1183
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 4: But that wasn't during my era. It was later.

1184
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 5: And I did say to my mom during that because

1185
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 5: my mom was a peanut, and she was held somewhat

1186
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 5: accountable for the climate, not because she hid it or anything,

1187
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 5: but that because perhaps she was involved in creating a

1188
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 5: space where that was allowed to happen. I don't have

1189
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 5: any reasonably my mom knew it was happening. I don't

1190
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 5: think my mom, like, she didn't seem like somebody who

1191
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 5: would have covered up sexual abuse.

1192
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: In that way.

1193
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 5: But I did say to her, mom, that's like the

1194
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 5: only reason it's such a big deal to you all,

1195
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 5: like that you participated in allow you know, in supporting

1196
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 5: him to going in prison and everything is because it

1197
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 5: was boys like that, because that's quote homosexuality, like in

1198
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 5: her thear mind, Dad.

1199
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 3: Is the real sin, right right.

1200
00:50:55,800 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 5: So in my opinion that there was justice in that situation,

1201
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 5: I mean, there's never justice for the victims, but in

1202
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 5: that situation, he was held accountable. But I think it's

1203
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 5: because I have not heard of anyone who was held

1204
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:08,479
Speaker 5: accountable for what they did to a girl.

1205
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of horrible things happened to you and.

1206
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's off what happened to those boys, And

1207
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 5: then of course I wanted that justice to happen, of course,

1208
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 5: But I also I don't think those boys were really,

1209
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 5: you know, fully supported either.

1210
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,479
Speaker 4: But yeah, and I think that there was a lot of.

1211
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 5: Pushing things under the rug, and I think there still

1212
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 5: is to this day, not just in this organization, but

1213
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 5: all sorts of organizations.

1214
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:38,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, how did you end up ultimately leaving?

1215
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 5: So you know, I'm going to add one thing to

1216
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 5: the one man identified earlier. I don't know what happened

1217
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 5: to this man. No one seems to be able to

1218
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 5: find it. I didn't hire a prior investigator, but he's

1219
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 5: not in any social media. He's just like completely disappeared.

1220
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 5: So I have no idea if he's in prison somewhere,

1221
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 5: if he died. But I left not just because of that.

1222
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 5: There were other men when I was a teenager who

1223
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 5: didn't full on rapey but did sexual assault on me,

1224
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,919
Speaker 5: And I think I was very confused by that point,

1225
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 5: you know. But I got into college. I was house cleaning.

1226
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 5: I was doing a lot of house cleaning for outsiders

1227
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 5: because we didn't have money, and at that point my

1228
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 5: mom was really really busy running a school, and so

1229
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,720
Speaker 5: I would just disappear, and I mean I did. Also,

1230
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 5: I'd learned to ask people for I mean, I'm still

1231
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 5: really good at this, but like I would ask people

1232
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 5: for rides or I would get you know. So I

1233
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 5: started house cleaning and I had all word of mouth

1234
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 5: and people hired me all over the place, and one

1235
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 5: of the women I was working for, actually in San Marino,

1236
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 5: I was working for a wealthy family. She gave me

1237
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 5: a college application and I felt it out in pencil.

1238
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,280
Speaker 5: I literally wrote my statement of purpose as a poem

1239
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 5: in pencil. And so I ended up going to the

1240
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 5: Clermont Colleges on full scholarship at seventeen. And that is

1241
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 5: how I, like, physically left. I do not think that

1242
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 5: I emotionally left for a very long time. Really, like

1243
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 5: I moved into college, but I was not so like

1244
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 5: I went to college and I was free, you know,

1245
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 5: like I was like, yes, I lived in a co

1246
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 5: ed dorm, and I was so freaked out.

1247
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 4: Oh I'm sure, you know, completely freaked out.

1248
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 5: I didn't drink ever in college or in grad school, Like,

1249
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,400
Speaker 5: I didn't ever taste alcohol, didn't smoke, I didn't do

1250
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 5: anything because I was so I think worried that that

1251
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 5: would lead to internal damnation, but also that if I

1252
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 5: lost my mind, what else would I have?

1253
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 4: So I don't.

1254
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: I think it took me a long time to unravel

1255
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 5: enough to I didn't date or anything. I just got

1256
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 5: married to somebody I knew, you know, So I didn't

1257
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 5: have the opportunities that I wish that I had allowed myself,

1258
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 5: Like I wish i'd gotten therapy, for example, or I

1259
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 5: did go to one therapist on campus when I was suicidal.

1260
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 5: But I just, you know, I don't think I needven

1261
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 5: knew the language to begin, yeah, to talk about it

1262
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 5: at that age.

1263
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 2: Was there anything that was helpful for you in that

1264
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 2: journey of unpacking what happened to you and kind of

1265
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: getting out of the belief system.

1266
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 5: I took a course my very first semester of college

1267
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 5: called History through World Religion, and I had a lot

1268
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 5: of choice what to sign up for because at pittser

1269
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 5: where I was an undergraduate, you literally could choose your

1270
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 5: own curriculum. They didn't have general ed like that you

1271
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 5: had to do certain credits, but your advisor could approve

1272
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 5: whatever you wanted to study. So I was very interested

1273
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 5: in understanding religion, and so I think right at the

1274
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 5: very beginning, understanding that people have made up all sorts

1275
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 5: of stories and that has created the cultures that we

1276
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 5: live in. And so I think I started understanding that

1277
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 5: religion and the ways we're taught it are part of

1278
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 5: culture and they're part of microcultures and their familial cultures.

1279
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 5: And I think I started piecing that together my very

1280
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 5: first semester of college. And I wasn't able to make

1281
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,279
Speaker 5: friends with anyone my own age. I didn't have the

1282
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 5: skill set because I didn't have popular culture. I didn't

1283
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 5: know music or any of that. But I did start

1284
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 5: to become friends with professors. And there was a professor

1285
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 5: in my first year who was married to a sociology professor.

1286
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 5: I never took his class, but they were both, you know,

1287
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 5: they worked at the same school. They were married, and

1288
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 5: they invited me over all the time, and they sort

1289
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 5: of became like pseudo parents to me a little bit.

1290
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 5: In fact, he recently passed and I went she sent

1291
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 5: me a beautiful message and I said, I'm going to

1292
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 5: drop buy something and she said, no, no, come in.

1293
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 5: And so not very long after we.

1294
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 4: Passed, maybe three days. It was a couple of weeks ago,

1295
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 4: I went to her house and I was telling her

1296
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 4: these stories.

1297
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 5: I said, he is the very first your husband is

1298
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 5: the very first person whoever used the word cult with me,

1299
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 5: and said, you know you. And he gave me a

1300
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 5: book called Becoming an Ex and I had it still,

1301
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 5: and so I told her, I said, he was so

1302
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 5: influential to me, and it.

1303
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 4: Was really beautiful.

1304
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 5: And I've obviously kept in touch with them, Otherwise she

1305
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 5: wouldn't have notified me. But they were such a huge

1306
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 5: impact on my life because they were able to tell

1307
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 5: me that the experience I had was and I didn't

1308
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 5: know how to talk about it, but they said that

1309
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 5: it was like that I would come to find it

1310
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 5: meaningful later if I started studying. So I did some

1311
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 5: religious studies in grad school. I minored in religious studies,

1312
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 5: and I just started learning about the way religion is

1313
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 5: taught to us, and even the canon of the Bible,

1314
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 5: way that those six six books were like pieced together,

1315
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 5: or if you're you know, the Protestant version of the Bible,

1316
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 5: like and the you know, thirty nine books of the

1317
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 5: Old Testament, the twice seven books of the New Testament,

1318
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 5: like the.

1319
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 4: Integration of all that.

1320
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 5: It wasn't like one day God said, you know, which

1321
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 5: is like the construction.

1322
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 4: I didn't know that.

1323
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 5: So I think that was really important for me to

1324
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 5: start to believe that maybe I hadn't been told the

1325
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 5: whole truth, right.

1326
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 1: I really liked this quote from your book. Maybe we

1327
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: can just end on that you wrote we are made

1328
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 1: for recovery, and I love I love that, and I

1329
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: loved when you were out foraging, you were just talking

1330
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 1: about if the organism won't stop at survival, it attaches

1331
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 1: to it, it needs to grow and thrive.

1332
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I.

1333
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: Feel like that's there's like this really deep message of

1334
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 1: the mother and this book and Mother Earth and nurturing yourself.

1335
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: And we didn't even touch on the eating disorder that

1336
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: you went through and that so many women and men

1337
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: who grow up with these kind of beliefs experience a

1338
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: lot of the time. And yeah, it's just it's amazing

1339
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 1: that you were able to survive. And yeah, I guess,

1340
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: I guess we were kind of talking before this interview

1341
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: even started, like do you think your mom was unconsciously

1342
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 1: programming you to get out this whole time?

1343
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:14,760
Speaker 4: Yes?

1344
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think it was conscious. But I think

1345
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 5: there wasn't room for She had three daughters before she

1346
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 5: had a son, and I don't think there was room

1347
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 5: for women strong women in this organization. I honestly think

1348
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 5: she was a little bit threatened too. I don't think

1349
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 5: she wanted the competition. I am writing on substack right

1350
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 5: now I'll throw this out there. I've been doing a

1351
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 5: lot of writing on forging, literal and metaphorical, and responding

1352
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 5: to readers' questions, and so readers of the book, but

1353
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 5: then also readers a substack, So if they have questions

1354
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 5: about forging, or if they have questions about recovery, and

1355
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 5: what I think that that looks like. I certainly am

1356
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 5: not an expert on anyone else's recovery, but I have

1357
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 5: certainly spent a lot of time dealing with my own

1358
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 5: same And yeah, and I think that, Yeah, I think

1359
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 5: my mom gave me a great gift. I think she

1360
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 5: gave me great gift through the plants with my understanding

1361
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 5: of the natural world. And I think she gave me

1362
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 5: a great gift in believing that there was some degree

1363
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 5: of agency that I could attach to. And whether or

1364
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 5: not she intended that, I'm guessing she did not. I'm

1365
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 5: still going to say it was a gift, and I

1366
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 5: am grateful, and I have a lot of respect for

1367
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 5: the way that she didn't just lay down and die.

1368
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 5: So she and I think she was a victim as well,

1369
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 5: So I think that I am more fortunate than she was.

1370
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: Where can people find your book?

1371
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 4: Anywhere books are sold.

1372
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 5: The paperback is coming out that comes out in February,

1373
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 5: and so it's.

1374
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 4: A little less expensive.

1375
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 5: I encourage you to buy the favorite back because it

1376
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 5: has additional content as well, oh cool interviews and things

1377
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 5: like that. But it's available on all the online if

1378
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 5: you choose to support independent bookstores, it's everywhere there.

1379
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 4: But of course it's also.

1380
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 5: On Amazon, and we've had yeah, we've had a great distribution.

1381
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 4: I think the hardback's pretty much sold out, but you

1382
00:58:59,000 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 4: probably find it.

1383
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 3: Somewhere and congratulations, thank you.

1384
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been it's been a really interesting experience. And

1385
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 5: I actually I personally really like paperback, so I'm really

1386
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 5: happy that it's coming on paperback and that it has.

1387
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 4: A little bit more content. Is just kind of a nice,

1388
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 4: nice edition.

1389
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: Even just the intro itself gave me chills, Like you

1390
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 2: made you draw so many beautiful metaphors in this book,

1391
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 2: as Megan referenced, I whatever. I just think it's very

1392
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: well written, and I encourage people to go read it,

1393
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: especially if you also have an interest in forging and survival.

1394
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 3: Where are you on social media?

1395
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 5: I'm on Instagram as a Michelle daoud Z. I'm on Facebook, too.

1396
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 5: I've just never on there.

1397
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: Great well Instagram that is yeah, great, well, buy the

1398
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: book and I'm following you both on Instagram.

1399
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 4: Oh we'll find you back.

1400
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming and talking to us today.

1401
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 5: Thank you both low Than Meghan and you are such

1402
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 5: a pleasure. And you had such insightful question, so great conversations.

1403
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 5: I feel like I can hang with you for a

1404
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 5: long time.

1405
00:59:58,560 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 2: Agreed.

1406
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to only be doing lunch, that's for sure,

1407
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: one day soon. Oh my gosh, what an amazing story,

1408
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: What an amazing book. I suggest everybody reads it asap. Lola,

1409
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you today's after episode question. Okay,

1410
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: you asked me last week if I would want to

1411
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 1: be in the Girl Scouts. The answer was yes, very much.

1412
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: So wasn't allowed to be? What about you and camping foraging?

1413
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: One might say living by yourself out in the in

1414
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: the open air for a while, because what we didn't

1415
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: really get into in her book is that there is

1416
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: a large chunk of time where she lives by herself,

1417
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: literally eating like sticks and berries.

1418
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 2: I go and there's like advice on how to drink

1419
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: water in the desert when there's no water, like there's

1420
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: just so much survivalist stuff in there. Well, you know,

1421
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 2: I've talked a lot recently, I feel like a little

1422
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 2: bit too much to be honest about how I love

1423
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: survival shows. I love alone. I want to have a

1424
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 2: cabin in the wood, But in terms of like literally

1425
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 2: limming in the woods, like without a real shelter and

1426
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: electricity and running water, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna go no, Yeah,

1427
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 2: I'm not that hearty as a person. I need like

1428
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: some basic necessities like water and uh and shelter where

1429
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 2: there's insulation, and then I can venture outdoors and sit

1430
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,440
Speaker 2: in the calm, peaceful outdoors. That's that's kind of the

1431
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 2: ideal version of it for me. But I do want

1432
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: to acquire survival skills, as I have been talking about

1433
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 2: quite a lot. But will I ever actually take a class?

1434
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: Probably not.

1435
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: But do you, I mean, do you think that you

1436
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: could survive for a long time by yourself?

1437
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: No, I mean out not right now, because I have

1438
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 2: no skills.

1439
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: After your class, after after your online master class.

1440
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 2: No, no, I don't, because I think that it takes

1441
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 2: a very particular type of personsonality to be able to

1442
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,520
Speaker 2: withstand that kind of isolation. And that kind of lack

1443
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 2: of human connection. I'm someone who needs a lot of

1444
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 2: human connection, even not like a lot of people, but

1445
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: I need to talk to my people a lot. And

1446
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 2: if that were removed and it was literally just me

1447
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 2: in the woods, I don't I think I would lose

1448
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: my mind?

1449
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 3: Right, what about you?

1450
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: It's so funny because Michelle, well, of course not, I

1451
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 1: would die immediately. Michelle seems so like I mean, she's

1452
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: such a bubbly, energetic like I want to be friends

1453
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: with her. I can't imagine her living in the woods

1454
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: by herself or living in the desert by herself. She's

1455
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: such had like matted hair to her head, Like it's

1456
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: just so hard for me to imagine what she went through.

1457
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: And that isn't her natural personality type really in my opinion.

1458
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 3: So wow, she's she's a survivor.

1459
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, you know, I want I wonder though, because

1460
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: she has like an earthy quality about her. I wonder

1461
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: if it hadn't been forced upon her, like to what

1462
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 2: extent she would have explored those things exactly for her own.

1463
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 2: But we'll never know, We'll never know.

1464
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: She's so cool, Like I said, Michelle, friendship please Plea's

1465
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 1: do it me and you and Lola let me in.

1466
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 1: I love talking to her. I love talking to her.

1467
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: We love talking to you. If you liked this episode

1468
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 1: or any of them, please rate us five stars and

1469
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: keep coming back and we can't wait to see you

1470
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: again next week. As always, remember to follow your gut,

1471
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags.

1472
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me bye. Trust Me is produced

1473
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemater.

1474
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 3: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1475
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1476
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1477
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1478
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1479
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 2: I'm ooh La Loola on Instagram and oh La Loola

1480
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 2: on Twitter.

1481
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

1482
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1483
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word m