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Speaker 1: you feed dot net slash join. Do you understand the
Speaker 1: power behind how egotistical that is to genuinely believe if
Speaker 1: other people thought the way you do, everything would be fine.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great tinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. My friends.
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Speaker 1: one on one transformation program and the Spiritual Habits programs.
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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Dr Christian Conti, one of the country's most accomplished mental
Speaker 1: health specialists in the field of anger and emotional management.
Speaker 1: He specializes in working in the prison system with people
Speaker 1: convicted of violent crimes. In this episode, he and Eric
Speaker 1: discuss his new book, Walking Through Anger, a New Design
Speaker 1: for Confronting conflict in an emotionally Charged World. Hi Christian,
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Thanks for having it. I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to talk about your book called Walking Through Anger,
Speaker 1: a New Design for Confronting conflict in an emotionally charged world.
Speaker 1: And boy do we live in an emotionally charged world,
Speaker 1: so lots to talk about. But let's start like we
Speaker 1: always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking
Speaker 1: with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: and he looks up at his grandfather and he said,
Speaker 1: a grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the
Speaker 1: one you feed. So I'd like to start off by
Speaker 1: asking you what that parable means to you in your
Speaker 1: life and in the work that you do. I think
Speaker 1: it's essential to the way I've designed my entire life.
Speaker 1: So are you a similar metaphor slightly different? But I
Speaker 1: do this, I say, I ask people, if I give
Speaker 1: you a bucket, what would you put in that bucket?
Speaker 1: You can put anything you want in that bucket, and
Speaker 1: so what's the first thing that comes to your mind? Well,
Speaker 1: I put a phone in there, or I'd put I
Speaker 1: put food in there. Okay, then you'd have a phone
Speaker 1: in your bucket, or you'd have food in your bucket.
Speaker 1: The reality is that whatever you put in your bucket
Speaker 1: will be in your bucket. And that's true of your mind.
Speaker 1: And it's the same thing equivalent to what the wolf
Speaker 1: parable is. If I put fear and anger in my mind,
Speaker 1: that's what will be in my mind. It's not complex,
Speaker 1: it's not rocket science. It's literally that simple. What you
Speaker 1: put in your mind will be in your mind. If
Speaker 1: you're angry, and let's say you are driven by whatever
Speaker 1: your politics are, you're gonna watch TV to only see
Speaker 1: whatever fulfills like what you already believe, and you're gonna
Speaker 1: keep filling your mind up with that. And if you're angry,
Speaker 1: you'll just keep filling your seat. See, whatever I believe
Speaker 1: is true, and it's very powerful. What you put in
Speaker 1: your mind will be in your mind. The wolf you
Speaker 1: feed is the wolf that will succeed. I mean for
Speaker 1: that alliteration, but that that worked out kind of nicely.
Speaker 1: It does, it does. So let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about anger. A lot of your work and and this
Speaker 1: book really talks a lot about dealing with other people
Speaker 1: that are angry. But you say that your method, although
Speaker 1: it is a method for dealing with conflict in other
Speaker 1: people's anger, it's also a method for dealing with our
Speaker 1: own anger. And I'd like to explore working with our
Speaker 1: own anger because, as I mentioned you in the brief
Speaker 1: conversation before the show, there's a lot of anger that
Speaker 1: people are feeling right now about this global situation that
Speaker 1: we're in. You know, there's anger about how the government
Speaker 1: is handling things. I've been doing a lot of free
Speaker 1: coaching for healthcare workers, and there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: whose lives are out there on the line who are angry,
Speaker 1: you know, like we shouldn't be in the conditions we are.
Speaker 1: We all see people on TV who aren't social distancing,
Speaker 1: and we can get angry and think they're putting other
Speaker 1: people at risk. So I'd like to explore working with
Speaker 1: anger because there's a lot of it right now, and
Speaker 1: of course it's an evergreen topic. It's always always going
Speaker 1: to be here. So where do we start with working
Speaker 1: with our own anger? So I did martial arts growing up,
Speaker 1: and um I was passionate about doing martial arts. I
Speaker 1: had a teacher was phenomenal. I was a hotheaded teenager
Speaker 1: and every time I felt like I got good at something,
Speaker 1: he would call me up to the front of the
Speaker 1: class to demonstrate something that I would inevitably fall on
Speaker 1: the ground and look like a full with He was
Speaker 1: cutting down that ego which I had as a kid
Speaker 1: so much. So when we talk about anger, we talk
Speaker 1: about dealing with anger. One of the toughest things is
Speaker 1: for people to get confronted with the reality that their
Speaker 1: own ego is what causes a significant amount of that anger.
Speaker 1: For example, I talk about the difference between what I
Speaker 1: call a cartoon world. This is how the world should be,
Speaker 1: this is the way people should respond, this is what
Speaker 1: people should think, this is what people should say, and
Speaker 1: then there's the real world, how people actually are doing
Speaker 1: it and as long as we align our expectations with
Speaker 1: the cartoon world, well, they should have known what we knew,
Speaker 1: they should have said what we would have said. Um,
Speaker 1: they should have done what we would have done. Then
Speaker 1: we're let down. But the world isn't letting us down
Speaker 1: because the world is what it is. It's our own expectations.
Speaker 1: So an enormous part when we talk about anger management,
Speaker 1: it's about holding up a mirror to our own lives
Speaker 1: and recognizing that we create a lot of unnecessary suffering
Speaker 1: in our minds because we demand that the outside world
Speaker 1: should be the way we think it should be. What
Speaker 1: the reality is, It is what it is, right A.
Speaker 1: I tend to agree with you that we set ourselves
Speaker 1: up for a lot of our frustration by expecting the
Speaker 1: world to be different than it is. But there are
Speaker 1: a lot of people who respond to the world as
Speaker 1: you know. We see things that we want to be different.
Speaker 1: We see conditions in the world, we see suffering that's
Speaker 1: happening to other people, and we're frustrated by that. Sure,
Speaker 1: look when we see that suffering, we see that there's
Speaker 1: that's real, that's reality. So the question is what can
Speaker 1: we do about it? What I see is we spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about really kind of silly judgments.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have said that
Speaker 1: hindsight bias is a defense mechanism. It's startling. There was
Speaker 1: a town. They operated on this machinery, and their whole
Speaker 1: lives revolved around this machinery. And one day the machine
Speaker 1: broke and so the town was out of luck. So
Speaker 1: they called in this expert. An expert said, look, I'll
Speaker 1: help you out. But it's twenty million dollars paying me
Speaker 1: up front. So they said, man, that's a lot of money,
Speaker 1: but our whole way of life is stopped. We need
Speaker 1: this guy. We need this guy. They recognized they didn't
Speaker 1: have the answer, so they paid him his money. He
Speaker 1: got his money. He takes out a he goes down
Speaker 1: to the boiler room of the main building. He was
Speaker 1: out a little three inch hammer. Takes out that hammer
Speaker 1: and he finds a spot. Boom, boom, boom. He pops
Speaker 1: three times. Machine kicks back on. Oh my goodness, he
Speaker 1: fixed it. Our way of life is set. But then
Speaker 1: it crept in. Wait a minute, all you did was
Speaker 1: tap right here three times. We can do that. That's easy,
Speaker 1: and the consultants said, yeah, but I knew where to tap. See,
Speaker 1: hindsight biases that belief that the second we get information
Speaker 1: that we already knew it, but we didn't know it.
Speaker 1: And this is what's happening right now in the world.
Speaker 1: It's always happening in the world. We watch something unfold,
Speaker 1: we see the answer, and then we convince ourselves in
Speaker 1: our own egotistical way that we knew that and that
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have done it that way. But the truth is,
Speaker 1: if we wouldn't have done it that way, we would
Speaker 1: have moved ourselves into those positions of leadership and we
Speaker 1: would have done things differently. And anything else is an illusion.
Speaker 1: It's a belief from our ego that it's almost a
Speaker 1: grandiose illusion, like I would have done things different late,
Speaker 1: But that's not reality. Reality is what's happening right now,
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a huge part. And when I
Speaker 1: said at the beginning that it's it's tough to hear,
Speaker 1: I know this isn't easy to hear because people want
Speaker 1: to believe welcome on. Tell me how everybody else is crazy,
Speaker 1: tell me how everybody else needs to work on this.
Speaker 1: But when we shine light. We say we all need
Speaker 1: to work on this. People like to say that up here,
Speaker 1: but the truth is, do we really like to look
Speaker 1: at ourselves and realize that it's our own thoughts and
Speaker 1: beliefs that channel the way we're experiencing the world. I
Speaker 1: think that's challenging for a lot of us. What about
Speaker 1: using anger as an energy to transform the things in
Speaker 1: the world that we want to be different, beautiful? It's
Speaker 1: excellent angers of wonderful motivator. Anger can get us fired up.
Speaker 1: I know this is an audio program and folks who
Speaker 1: are listening aren't able to watch this. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: say this as clearly as possible. If we were to
Speaker 1: look at things, let's let's almost look at it as
Speaker 1: a ladder, so I Eagine in your mind the ladder,
Speaker 1: the very bottom of that ladder. If we looked at
Speaker 1: the ladder as consciousness, the bottom of the ladder are
Speaker 1: things like shame, like oh this was I'm terrible, I'm
Speaker 1: no good. Right. The next rung on that ladder is depression.
Speaker 1: Then there's anxiety. But listen to this because it is important.
Speaker 1: The next step up is anger, which means we would
Speaker 1: rather be angry than dwell in shame or depression or anxiety,
Speaker 1: and so we lash out because anger is a great
Speaker 1: motivator to break us free from dwelling in the shame,
Speaker 1: the anxiety of depression, and when we can break free
Speaker 1: from an anger can be a beautiful motivator. The challenge
Speaker 1: for all of us comes into play when we really
Speaker 1: convince ourselves in an extraordinarily egotistical way that if the
Speaker 1: outside world just did whatever we believe they should do, well,
Speaker 1: then we're gonna be hey and everything will fall into place.
Speaker 1: Like I do this YouTube channel and I do these
Speaker 1: anger management videos. It's a free resource for people. I
Speaker 1: love doing it. I hear so many comments of people saying, well,
Speaker 1: I don't really have anger. If everybody would just do
Speaker 1: what I think they should do, I wouldn't be angry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if everybody just believe what you believe, then everything would
Speaker 1: be fine. That's do you understand the power behind how
Speaker 1: egotistical that is to genuinely believe if other people thought
Speaker 1: the way you do, everything would be fine. Imagine that.
Speaker 1: That's a hard thing to swallow, But once you do,
Speaker 1: you can become humble and say, wait a minute, maybe
Speaker 1: I don't have all the answers. Maybe this is the
Speaker 1: perspective I see, but I'm open to learning other perspectives
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, you talk a lot about that in
Speaker 1: the book About this, you use a metaphor of only
Speaker 1: being able to see one side of the box. So
Speaker 1: share a little bit more about that, because I do
Speaker 1: think that you talk a lot about that. Seeing other
Speaker 1: people's perspectives is a really important part of this, and
Speaker 1: there is a certain humility that we have to take
Speaker 1: that says, Okay, I don't know all the answers, so
Speaker 1: let me start with the box. First of all, I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful to you that that metaphor stood out to you,
Speaker 1: that that responded well with you. I feel very grateful
Speaker 1: that that lesson came to me to be able to
Speaker 1: share with my daughter. Originally, I've been sharing with people
Speaker 1: for the past ten years, and I'm watching some profound
Speaker 1: transformations with this metaphor. I really don't think life is
Speaker 1: super complex, but I think it's extraordinarily difficult. So in
Speaker 1: other words, we can understand stuff easily, but it's being
Speaker 1: able to actually follow through with it. So here's how
Speaker 1: the metaphor of the box came about. When my daughter
Speaker 1: was five, years old, She came home from school one
Speaker 1: day somebody given her a pamphlet on religion. It was
Speaker 1: a different religious belief than our own, but it's setting it.
Speaker 1: This is the truth. So at five years old, my
Speaker 1: little girl said to me, what, daddy, this says? This
Speaker 1: is the truth. So I took her up to her
Speaker 1: playroom and I had her lie down on the floor
Speaker 1: her and I had her close her eyes. I said,
Speaker 1: lie on your stomach, close your eyes. I put a
Speaker 1: big box in front of her, and I put different
Speaker 1: objects around each side of the box. So when I
Speaker 1: had her open her eyes, I had her so close
Speaker 1: to the box she could only see one side. So
Speaker 1: I said, what do you see. I had a little
Speaker 1: my little pony character. She said, my little pony. I said, okay, cool, so,
Speaker 1: my little is that true? There's my little pony there?
Speaker 1: She said, yes, awesome, that's truth. Is it true? There's
Speaker 1: my little pony on every side of the box. Now
Speaker 1: she's five years old, So she goes yes, and I
Speaker 1: was enthusiasm. I loved it. I said, okay, So I
Speaker 1: scooted over so she can only see two sides of
Speaker 1: the box. One side had that little pony, the other
Speaker 1: side had a little book. She said, oh, it's a book.
Speaker 1: I said, that's okay. Just because you see a book
Speaker 1: on this side, does it make it any less true
Speaker 1: that there's a pony on that side? Now, that's still truth,
Speaker 1: right if you're only seeing this side of the box,
Speaker 1: that pony is absolutely true, and you could feel passionate
Speaker 1: about it. But does that necessarily tell the story of
Speaker 1: the rest of the box? So again I asked her,
Speaker 1: I said, hey, honey, now do you believe that there's
Speaker 1: a pony in a book on the other two sides
Speaker 1: of the box. And I want you to hear this answer,
Speaker 1: because at five years old she didn't have ego involved.
Speaker 1: She genuinely said, now, Daddy, I don't know. And I said, damn.
Speaker 1: I gave her high five. I said, that's it, honey,
Speaker 1: because when you can recognize that the people who follow
Speaker 1: that way, that believe in that path, they see that
Speaker 1: side of the box, and it may very well be
Speaker 1: true for them, But that doesn't necessarily mean that tells
Speaker 1: the story of the entire box. And I quoted the
Speaker 1: opening lines of the Dalla day Jane to her. From
Speaker 1: that the doll that can be told is not the
Speaker 1: eternal doll. The name that can be named is not
Speaker 1: the eternal name. And the essence of this lesson was
Speaker 1: the human mind that's a box. In other words, I
Speaker 1: don't care how much you think you know what's going
Speaker 1: on with someone else. There's always more to the story.
Speaker 1: Just like in your own life, when someone tells you
Speaker 1: I know all about you, you go, no, there's more
Speaker 1: to me that you don't know. The same is true
Speaker 1: picture somebody in in the world you don't like, think politics, celebrities,
Speaker 1: people you see on TV, whoever you pick that you
Speaker 1: don't like. Your ego convinces you you know all about them,
Speaker 1: your true self, your essence, that humility understands there is
Speaker 1: more to that person than you will allow yourself to recognize.
Speaker 1: And when we can learn to see people as significantly
Speaker 1: more than what we're seeing, it changes the way we
Speaker 1: interact with them and the way we actually experience life internally.
Speaker 1: I love that analogy, and I want to read something
Speaker 1: you wrote about this. It got my attention, and it
Speaker 1: said the reason why it's so important to listen to
Speaker 1: others as if they are seeing something that you simply
Speaker 1: cannot see the entirety of is that they are talking
Speaker 1: about their own inner subjective worlds, and the reality is
Speaker 1: you absolutely cannot see the entirety of what they see.
Speaker 1: And that really made clear to me that, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I think I see what someone else can see, and
Speaker 1: I can, but they've got this whole vast inner life
Speaker 1: and all these experiences before, and it's pretty clear to
Speaker 1: me I can't see that. I don't know that. I
Speaker 1: don't understand that, and it does. The word you use often,
Speaker 1: and I use it a lot for different things, is curiosity,
Speaker 1: all right? And when we can switch into a position
Speaker 1: of curiosity, I find this about most anything. Um And
Speaker 1: I quote a spiritual teacher I love, Audio Shanti, who
Speaker 1: told me once that nothing collapses consciousness faster than judgment,
Speaker 1: and curiosity is a way of keeping consciousness more open.
Speaker 1: So we live. So let's go ahead and take advantage
Speaker 1: to some of the information that we have today. This
Speaker 1: was when I started counseling in the ninety nineties. You're right,
Speaker 1: like you say, all this stuff is speculation. It's all nice,
Speaker 1: happy conjecture. But the truth is we live in so
Speaker 1: let's let's recognize the information we know. The reason why
Speaker 1: curiosity is different than judgment is Robert Burton, one of
Speaker 1: the leading neuroscientists in the world who wrote several books
Speaker 1: that are excellent. One of my favorites is on Being Certain.
Speaker 1: Thirty five years as a neuroscientist, has discovered that when
Speaker 1: we feel certain, I know you did this, I know
Speaker 1: he thinks that, I know she said that, that's an emotion.
Speaker 1: It's not a cognition. So you think you're being intellectual,
Speaker 1: you think you're being really intelligent about a conversation, but
Speaker 1: the moment you feel certain, it's a feeling. It's not
Speaker 1: a cognition. Curiosity is a cognition. So in the most
Speaker 1: basic sense, and trust me, all due respect to every
Speaker 1: neurologist out there, I recognize I am making this overly simple. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying there's so much instantiation in the brain,
Speaker 1: so many different connections. I know it's more complex than this,
Speaker 1: but it's kind of easy to reduce it to this.
Speaker 1: In general, there is what we call a limbic system
Speaker 1: or an emotional center to our brain. Think about in
Speaker 1: the middle of your brain, and then the higher level
Speaker 1: thinking frontal cortex is the fund of your brain. That's
Speaker 1: when if we did brain skins and we've see I've
Speaker 1: seen research where it's kind of cool. They had adults
Speaker 1: and adolescens talk about the same thing. Yet for the adults,
Speaker 1: their frontal cortex at higher level thinking was going off.
Speaker 1: For the adolescents, same conversation, same words, their limbic system,
Speaker 1: their emotional center was going off. So we're in two
Speaker 1: different areas, two different areas. That's why if you have teenagers,
Speaker 1: if they break up after two days, they think it's
Speaker 1: the end of the world, because to them it is.
Speaker 1: They're in the emotionally, but beyond teenagers for you and
Speaker 1: for me and for everyone listening, when you're certain about
Speaker 1: your beliefs, when you're their beliefs, their beliefs for a reason,
Speaker 1: because we don't have definitive and you don't have a
Speaker 1: belief about gravity. We just see that there's gravity. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to anything in the world where in
Speaker 1: tales of belief and belief is a human principle. All
Speaker 1: people have belief. Whether you are a fundamentalist of a
Speaker 1: religion or whether you're an atheist, you have belief because
Speaker 1: we don't know what else is out there. The doll
Speaker 1: that can be told is not the eternal bal the
Speaker 1: name that can be named is not the eternal name.
Speaker 1: So what we have is belief, and when we become
Speaker 1: certain about that belief, we're steeped in the middle of
Speaker 1: our limbic system. And so we argue with people thinking
Speaker 1: we're being intellectual, but we're not. We're being emotional. And
Speaker 1: when we can be when we can have someone hold
Speaker 1: up a mirror and actually challenge our own egos and
Speaker 1: realize that we're being emotional attached to our egos, then
Speaker 1: we can start to lead with humility and genuine curiosity,
Speaker 1: and it lessens the intensity of the interaction. So let's say,
Speaker 1: on an everyday basis, let's say, with your family, Jeff children, Uh,
Speaker 1: he's not a child anymore. He's twenty one, all right, Okay,
Speaker 1: so so but you still your son. So let's say
Speaker 1: with your son. You might believe I see this perspective
Speaker 1: and this is right, But the truth is if you
Speaker 1: really approach him with a hey, listen, this is what
Speaker 1: I'm seeing. These are the sides of the box I'm seeing.
Speaker 1: But please teach me about your side, it changes the
Speaker 1: energy of the interaction. Now it isn't about you need
Speaker 1: to see my cartoon world and live in my cartoon world.
Speaker 1: It's about saying, look, we're in the shared world together.
Speaker 1: Teach me about the side of the box. You see.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you talk a lot about
Speaker 1: is that when we approach people this way, with this openness,
Speaker 1: with this curiosity, with us not assuming we know the
Speaker 1: right thing for them, that it makes the conversation go better.
Speaker 1: And it often does that because one of the things
Speaker 1: it does is you say, by speaking their truth, it
Speaker 1: allows them to drain their limbic system. So you explain
Speaker 1: the limbic system allows them to drain their limbic system.
Speaker 1: That all makes complete sense to me. I want to
Speaker 1: ask you, though, about doing that for ourselves. You know,
Speaker 1: what we're saying is, let's allow other people to express
Speaker 1: us their perspective, allow them, if they've got angered, to
Speaker 1: express their anger to do that. We don't resist it,
Speaker 1: and thus it allows it to drain. So talk about
Speaker 1: draining our own limits system. How do we do that? Yeah? So,
Speaker 1: I think that's so profound and important. I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: that you brought it up, because here's why. I am
Speaker 1: a part of every interaction I will ever have in
Speaker 1: my entire life. So are you. So there's everyone who's listening.
Speaker 1: We are in part we come to that situation. So
Speaker 1: understanding ourselves is absolutely critical to being able to communicate effectively.
Speaker 1: To understand ourselves, here's one of the basic teachings of
Speaker 1: yield theory that I've discovered through again, more than twenty
Speaker 1: thousand hours of sitting down doing clinical sessions, analyzing those sessions,
Speaker 1: and that's a lot of intentionality for a long time.
Speaker 1: And what I found is this, I definitely buy into
Speaker 1: and subscribe to cognitive behavioral therapy. I think it's beautiful
Speaker 1: and wonderful. The s of cognitive behavioral therapy is this cognition,
Speaker 1: fancy word for thoughts, behavior, your actions. Essentially, cognitive behavioral
Speaker 1: therapy boils down to what you tell yourself determines how
Speaker 1: you feel. Right. In other words, if you see it
Speaker 1: and it's raining, you go, oh, this is terrible. I
Speaker 1: can't believe it's raining. You're gonna be upset. But if
Speaker 1: you go, gosh, we really needed rain, Thank goodness it's here,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be happy. The rain stays the same. But
Speaker 1: what you tell yourself drives your behavior. Okay, So that's
Speaker 1: CBT in a nuts nutshell. Cognitive behavioral therapy love that
Speaker 1: it's important, it's not enough. What I've discovered in my
Speaker 1: own career is this, our mind wants to match our body.
Speaker 1: So if we down three energy drinks, our heart's gonna
Speaker 1: raise fast. Our body might even start to shake a
Speaker 1: little bit, like we're feeling physiological anxiety. And once we
Speaker 1: feel physiologically anxious, our mind will race to match our bodies.
Speaker 1: For me, I'm a very busy person. I try up
Speaker 1: all over I speak in different places every week. So
Speaker 1: as a person who personally struggles with anxiety, if I
Speaker 1: have too much caffeine, my mind will race and go
Speaker 1: were you supposed to be in a different state today,
Speaker 1: Were you supposed to be somewhere else today? And so
Speaker 1: and I have to take a moment, all right, you
Speaker 1: just had a lot of caffeine today, and it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: But let's not create a story. So what I teach
Speaker 1: people to do around with yield theory, that's one of
Speaker 1: the core principles, is to understand that your mind wants
Speaker 1: to match your body and to recognize that and articulated.
Speaker 1: So right now here we are in this quarantine at home,
Speaker 1: Let's say you're agitated, you're irritable. Maybe you're not sleeping,
Speaker 1: maybe you're stressed because you're worried about money. In those
Speaker 1: moments when your body feels physiological discomfort, your mind will
Speaker 1: race to make sense of it. And often we go
Speaker 1: to make sense saying it's my wife, it's my it's
Speaker 1: it's my husband, it's somebody else that's making me feel
Speaker 1: like this, when the truth is our mind is just
Speaker 1: racing to match our bodies. And can you imagine the
Speaker 1: psychological freedom that occurs when you look at yourself and say,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel I feel really uncomfortable, but I
Speaker 1: want you to know it has nothing to do with you.
Speaker 1: I said this to my wife this morning. I did
Speaker 1: some yardwork yesterday. My back's killing me. Woke up this
Speaker 1: morning I said, listen, I need you to know that
Speaker 1: this is literally I'm being on I'm dead honest. This
Speaker 1: is one of my just a genuine looking in my life.
Speaker 1: I said to my wife. I said, listen, I my
Speaker 1: back is on fire right now. When I woke up
Speaker 1: this morning, I said, I need you to I want
Speaker 1: to say this to you. I feel really agitated and irritable.
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with you. It's honestly just this,
Speaker 1: like ridiculous pain in my back, And so right away,
Speaker 1: we've been married for twenty years, my wife goes great
Speaker 1: things and like that's it. Because we're able to say
Speaker 1: it now, our communication the rest of the day can
Speaker 1: be notious because first of all, once I say it,
Speaker 1: I'm less likely to continue to act that way unconsciously.
Speaker 1: But also even if I genuinely was a little shorter
Speaker 1: on any statement, my wife will go, it's okay, how
Speaker 1: do you're in pain? Like there's no big deal. Like
Speaker 1: we're all in pain at times. So the consciousness that
Speaker 1: occurs when we just say what's going on with us
Speaker 1: is radical And so for me, anger management occurs with
Speaker 1: emotional management, and if people can learn it to get go,
Speaker 1: your mind is gonna want to match your body, and
Speaker 1: if you feel agitated, you're gonna want to take it
Speaker 1: out on loved ones. Wow, that's a that's a heck
Speaker 1: of a way to learn the role you're playing in
Speaker 1: anger management. There's so much you said there that I
Speaker 1: could comment on and we could go deeper into I
Speaker 1: think my first experience of that our mind wants to
Speaker 1: match our body was when I got sober and in
Speaker 1: in a a we say, you know, don't get too hungry, angry,
Speaker 1: lonely or tired, which they don't all go they actually
Speaker 1: don't all go together. But but because one of them
Speaker 1: an emotion, but the one for me was hungry tired.
Speaker 1: M hm oh. When I'm hungry and tired, I think
Speaker 1: I need a drink, that's all it is. And hangry
Speaker 1: is a notion that's permeated, you know, modern consciousness, because
Speaker 1: it's a real thing, you know, and and so a,
Speaker 1: I think that's really true. And I think what you
Speaker 1: said is exactly how I feel. I think CBT is
Speaker 1: so wise, and it only goes so far, you know,
Speaker 1: because it doesn't always go that's not always the order
Speaker 1: of operation. Thought then emotions the other way. And the
Speaker 1: other thing that you said there that I have found
Speaker 1: to be so true is that there is something about
Speaker 1: naming my negative emotional state, particularly to the people in
Speaker 1: my life, and it then a allowing them to understand
Speaker 1: what's happening with me, and be it just lessons it
Speaker 1: when I say it, I'm somebody that gets irritated. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what it is. I think some
Speaker 1: of my depression comes out as irritation. But what I
Speaker 1: just say, I'm really irritated has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: you boys. Life better. That's awesome, It's so incredible, And
Speaker 1: look I love that you. I you even pinpointed perfectly
Speaker 1: the two to go together, the hunger and the fatigue,
Speaker 1: because the hypothalum nous in our brain is literally in
Speaker 1: the center of our limbic system, the center of that
Speaker 1: emotional stuff, and it is responsible for hunger, thirst, body temperature, fatigue,
Speaker 1: and sexual drive. So when those particular aspects aren't being fulfilled,
Speaker 1: we do feel more agitated, irritable. It's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why one of my books, Life Lessons, I wrote
Speaker 1: this article that said that was his little chapter said, um,
Speaker 1: go to bed angry by all means, because the old
Speaker 1: headage don't go to bed angry. Do you know I
Speaker 1: specialize in working with people convicted of violent crimes. Do
Speaker 1: you not many people I've worked with through my twenty
Speaker 1: one year career who have been there's been violence because
Speaker 1: one are both was overly tired. It's unbelievable. And I
Speaker 1: was gonna say it, had those people gone to bed,
Speaker 1: they probably wouldn't have been in prison and would change everything.
Speaker 1: So no, you're right, they wouldn't have gone. They wouldn't
Speaker 1: have that there would have been differences. One time in
Speaker 1: my group, I co founded a center for people convicted
Speaker 1: of violent crimes in South California. One time this guy
Speaker 1: came into my group. He said, Doc Man, I'm telling
Speaker 1: you saved my life. I said, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Saved your life? He said, remember when you're telling us
Speaker 1: go to bed angry? He said. Me and my girl,
Speaker 1: we were getting to the point where we've gotten to
Speaker 1: so many times before, and I said, Dr CONTI said,
Speaker 1: we need to go to sleep. And I said, first
Speaker 1: of all, before you invoked my name, I need to
Speaker 1: make sure you're using it correctly. And he said, but
Speaker 1: we did. And when we woke up, we both looked
Speaker 1: at each other and genuinely laugh. We were like, we're
Speaker 1: gonna finish fighting. We're like, what are we fighting about? Nothing?
Speaker 1: Because when we're overly tired, our mind wants to match
Speaker 1: our bodies and say it must be you. No, let's
Speaker 1: come back to it. I'm agitated my mind. And here's
Speaker 1: the point. I can imagine if I could reach into
Speaker 1: the hearts of everyone listening right now, that many people
Speaker 1: understand this intellectually, and one of the biggest challenges with
Speaker 1: understanding this intellectually quickly is that our egos tell us Okay,
Speaker 1: I got this. I know. But if you're not practicing this,
Speaker 1: and I don't mean once a week or once a month,
Speaker 1: or you're like, oh, I remember one time when I
Speaker 1: talked no every single moment of every single day, then
Speaker 1: you're not getting the lesson. And so it's very powerful
Speaker 1: but poignant to understand this has to be in our
Speaker 1: foregrounds all the time, every single day of your life,
Speaker 1: every conversation. And sometimes people have said to me, well,
Speaker 1: why should I put this much effort in You don't
Speaker 1: have to, But are you asking to communicate effectively? Because
Speaker 1: you do have to if you're asking to communicate effectively.
Speaker 1: And it's okay if you don't want to communicate effective
Speaker 1: it's okay if you want to just lash out and
Speaker 1: say whatever. But if you genuinely want to connect, you've
Speaker 1: got to challenge your ego in every given moment, and
Speaker 1: that's a process. It takes dedication, right, and I think
Speaker 1: so much of it is ego challenging is one word
Speaker 1: for it. But I think the other part of it
Speaker 1: is just really knowing where we are and where we're
Speaker 1: coming from as we move into a situation, really having
Speaker 1: that self awareness. And it was interesting because I had
Speaker 1: a little bit of an insight as I was reading that.
Speaker 1: And it's not that I didn't know on some level
Speaker 1: that our mind tries to match our body. But one
Speaker 1: of the things that I suffer from most is some
Speaker 1: degree of low mood slash depression. And it occurred to me.
Speaker 1: I went, I wonder how often that's just me being tired?
Speaker 1: How often is a low energy tiredness? Do I? Then
Speaker 1: sometimes I go, I'm just tired, But I wonder, are
Speaker 1: there other times you know that that I'm attributing depression
Speaker 1: to just being tired. And it's something for me to
Speaker 1: kind of keep an eye on as I move forward,
Speaker 1: because I was like, huh, I should really look at that.
Speaker 1: To me, that's the epitome of consciousness, just to have
Speaker 1: that in your foreground and be like, let me just
Speaker 1: check it out. I'm not sure that we ever fully
Speaker 1: know a dent. Maybe it is the depression, maybe it's tired,
Speaker 1: but the fact that you can bring that to your
Speaker 1: foreground and then say that to your loved ones it
Speaker 1: changes everything because now it's not about me versus you.
Speaker 1: It's about Look, I want to communicate something, and this
Speaker 1: barrier is how I'm feeling in this moment. Something else
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk with you about is now we're
Speaker 1: going to flip back. Can use an example of where
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy really does apply, and it's around extreme
Speaker 1: language produces extreme emotions. So I just did a video
Speaker 1: on YouTube today. I said, instant anger management. If anybody
Speaker 1: out there wants to go check it out and do
Speaker 1: a whole YouTube channel. It's a free resource for people.
Speaker 1: But I did this video called instant anger management as
Speaker 1: a technique I made up. I was in a prison system.
Speaker 1: I was working in a women's maximum security prison and
Speaker 1: I was listening to this woman conveyed what was going on,
Speaker 1: and I said to her, now, listen, here's what I
Speaker 1: want you to do. I want you to tell me
Speaker 1: that entire situation again, sans adjectives. Take away every adjective
Speaker 1: and tell me what you're upset about. So disagreed with me? Okay? Cool?
Speaker 1: It changes everything. I can't believe they believe this. They
Speaker 1: should believe this. They shouldn't have done. No, listen, SO
Speaker 1: and SO has a different opinion. Than I do. That's
Speaker 1: that's really not as monumental as I can't believe this.
Speaker 1: They never should think this. They always believe this stuff.
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, they just believe something differently than I believe.
Speaker 1: Is that not? Okay? So when you say things sans adjective.
Speaker 1: So the video I put out today was called instant
Speaker 1: anger management. That's what instant I called instant Angerman because
Speaker 1: it radically shifts things. You're right, the language and this
Speaker 1: is a beautiful lesson from CBT, originally given it to
Speaker 1: us by Epictetus uh and early philosopher who taught that
Speaker 1: we are not disturbed by things but by the view
Speaker 1: that we take of them. And in his book Discourses
Speaker 1: in Manual, which by the way, his student Arian I
Speaker 1: believe um wrote down his book. I used to say
Speaker 1: to my students, because I taught in a counseling program
Speaker 1: for years, I said, listen, this guy, Arian. He wrote
Speaker 1: down everything epic Tin has said. And so every t
Speaker 1: has actually never wrote any of this down. Arian did
Speaker 1: and he published it. And I said, so, if you
Speaker 1: guys really want to stand out a student, you know
Speaker 1: everything I say, and you're li sit down the road.
Speaker 1: But he Epictetus was originally the philosopher kind of showed
Speaker 1: us that we're not disturbed by the things, were disturbed
Speaker 1: by our view of those things. And to me, I
Speaker 1: love what you just highlighted because it can radically change
Speaker 1: someone's life if you just evaluate the adjectives you're using
Speaker 1: to describe what's going on. I can't believe he said that.
Speaker 1: Think about that statement. You mean, you, genuinely, as an
Speaker 1: intelligent human being, have an inability to believe that someone
Speaker 1: said something differently than you than you wanted them to say.
Speaker 1: And when you realize you can't wait, no, I can't
Speaker 1: believe that. Okay, So now let's come back to the truth.
Speaker 1: You can't believe it. You would have chosen for that
Speaker 1: person to say something differently. Okay, great, you would have
Speaker 1: chosen for them to say something. You think there are
Speaker 1: any moments in your life when people would have chosen
Speaker 1: for you to say things differently. Again, ego is huge.
Speaker 1: That's why I said at the beginning, my teacher used
Speaker 1: to do something a knocked down. I'd feel foolish, but
Speaker 1: I learned powerful lessons from that, and in many ways
Speaker 1: it's what I do with people psychologically. It's it hurts.
Speaker 1: It hurts sometimes to realize that as profoundly much as
Speaker 1: anyone out there listening believes that their political their religious
Speaker 1: beliefs are absolute truisms, the truth is those are limited perspectives.
Speaker 1: And you believe it, that's wonderful, But there are other
Speaker 1: sides to the box that you're not entirely considering or
Speaker 1: even know. And I think the more curiosity and humility
Speaker 1: we lead with, the wide or our perspective can become
Speaker 1: the wide or our perspective, and honestly, the more we
Speaker 1: can influence people towards the things we believe in and
Speaker 1: and think. All right, I mean, there's a curiosity that
Speaker 1: opens our mind and all that, but it's also the
Speaker 1: way that we can actually have dialogue and actually get
Speaker 1: people to move this whole like I'm right, you're wrong.
Speaker 1: It's a fool's Errand yes, that's a perfect way to
Speaker 1: phrase I think that's a perfect way to phrase it,
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what it is. I'm gonna know you
Speaker 1: how I'm right and you're wrong. Look, I appreciate you
Speaker 1: mentioned at the onset of the show there might be
Speaker 1: people who are watching if someone's not social distancing and
Speaker 1: they say, this makes me angry. How do you know
Speaker 1: that the person who's not social distancing hasn't been struggling
Speaker 1: with addiction his entire life and is pushed to the
Speaker 1: brink right now and he needs to get to home
Speaker 1: depot to do a project, because if he does a
Speaker 1: home project, he stays away from something that could trickle
Speaker 1: down from not only his life, but be a ripple
Speaker 1: effect for everyone in his family. How do we know this?
Speaker 1: And so to look at that person and say, well,
Speaker 1: they're not doing what I think they should be doing.
Speaker 1: How do you know the rest of their story? How
Speaker 1: do you know that person who's not social distancing on
Speaker 1: the news isn't because they're going to pick up something
Speaker 1: for someone who has not, and they're doing it for
Speaker 1: them and they don't have an opportunity to explain it. See,
Speaker 1: our judgments are steeped in arrogance. It's arrogance. Oh I
Speaker 1: know exactly why they're doing this and they're wrong. Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe you do, but maybe you don't. And if you don't,
Speaker 1: how foolish. I love that phrase. It's a fool's Errand
Speaker 1: to believe that your perspective is the right one, My goodness,
Speaker 1: they discovered a hundred and thirty nine new planets on
Speaker 1: our solar system earlier this year. Do you know how
Speaker 1: many people would have sworn on their lives that we
Speaker 1: had nine planets? Oh wait, Pluto got lopped off, we
Speaker 1: have eight. Oh wait, Pluto got put back all we
Speaker 1: have nine. Oh wait, now that we're counting dwarf planets,
Speaker 1: we know that we have hundreds around the Cooplar belt.
Speaker 1: And now we just found out, like a couple of
Speaker 1: weeks ago, hundred and thirty nine new ones on that
Speaker 1: Coopler belt, which means our solar system is steeped in
Speaker 1: planets and we don't even know that yet. We feel
Speaker 1: certain there's nine planets. I know. The song I was
Speaker 1: taught at when I was a kid, Certainty, honestly is
Speaker 1: the heart of a lot of anger. I'm certain you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that, you shouldn't have said that. The
Speaker 1: truth is, they did say it, they did do it.
Speaker 1: Now what do we do? How do we deal with
Speaker 1: it in this moment going forward? And so some of
Speaker 1: those extreme words that it gets good to call them
Speaker 1: out explicit like always, never, everybody, nobody, And one that
Speaker 1: I think is a great one is I can't stand it,
Speaker 1: or I can't handle this, or it's too much. I
Speaker 1: love it. I used say to people all the time
Speaker 1: in my office. I'd say they come in and say
Speaker 1: I can't stand it. When someone so says it, and
Speaker 1: I used to do this technique, I'd be like, um, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, I forgot to tell you not to
Speaker 1: sit in that chair. Could you just stand it for
Speaker 1: a second. And they would stand up, and I go,
Speaker 1: you know, a minute ago, you just told me you
Speaker 1: can't stand it, and now I see you standing, which
Speaker 1: means you can stand it. Let's talk about that. I
Speaker 1: think we just use a lighthearted human right right, Oh yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So let's not say I can't stand it. Let's just
Speaker 1: be accurate. So I do a lot of work in
Speaker 1: the prison system and very passionate about the work I
Speaker 1: do in the prison system. Nearly seven out of ten
Speaker 1: people who leave prison in the United States come back.
Speaker 1: That number is not okay with me. I don't think
Speaker 1: it should be okay with anybody. What happens is a
Speaker 1: lot of times people have a tendency to believe that
Speaker 1: this is exactly what should happen, when the truth is
Speaker 1: we have to meet people where they are and see
Speaker 1: what is happening and work from that moment forward. Yep.
Speaker 1: That's a great way of of explaining. Also, it's not
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't ever have beliefs about the way certain
Speaker 1: things in the world should be. You have a belief
Speaker 1: that's seven out of ten people shouldn't go back to prison.
Speaker 1: So you have that belief and you want to make
Speaker 1: that happen. And and the way that we do that
Speaker 1: is we meet people where they are, and then when
Speaker 1: we meet them where they are, we can potentially move them.
Speaker 1: But but if we don't meet them where they are,
Speaker 1: nobody moves, you know. It's it's I'm just sort of
Speaker 1: astounded by how our dialogue is and how we think
Speaker 1: on a political level, it's going to be different than
Speaker 1: it is in a personal level. And we know on
Speaker 1: a personal level, when you walk in the room and
Speaker 1: you go up to someone and you go, you idiot,
Speaker 1: you've got everything wrong, You've never done anything right. Like
Speaker 1: that never goes well, many of people do it. I'm
Speaker 1: still sort of that's another one of those, but that's
Speaker 1: not the way that change happens. Statistically speaking, the number
Speaker 1: of people for your audience who are listening to this
Speaker 1: show right now, who actually agree with what we're saying.
Speaker 1: It makes sense to them. They go, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: Nobody could walk in the room and tell me I'm
Speaker 1: an idiot and I'm wrong and I'm bad, and I'd go, oh, really,
Speaker 1: I never thought of it that way. And even though
Speaker 1: they hear that right now, they will literally click out
Speaker 1: of this podcast, jump on of social media and yell
Speaker 1: at somebody. And you're underestimating my listeners. This is a
Speaker 1: very evolved group. And I appreciate that. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: as human beings, that's what we do. I know, we
Speaker 1: haven't to see the believe na. This doesn't apply to
Speaker 1: me or I get it, but they don't get it.
Speaker 1: So here's the analogy I give. Let's say you and
Speaker 1: I would climb all the way to top of the mountain.
Speaker 1: We're up on top of the mountain. There's a whole
Speaker 1: group of people we wanted to come with us, but
Speaker 1: they're lost at the bottom of the mountain. Now we
Speaker 1: can holler and scream you should have gone the way
Speaker 1: we went, you should have taken this path, you shouldn't.
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they can't even hear
Speaker 1: us because they're at the bottom of the mountain. So
Speaker 1: if we truly want to impact them, we have to
Speaker 1: have the discipline to leave where we are and go
Speaker 1: meet them where they are and got them from there.
Speaker 1: But here's what happens. People say I shouldn't have to
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to tell people my side. That's pure ego,
Speaker 1: that's pure arrogance. You shouldn't have to to convey the
Speaker 1: information you have. Like can you imagine the arrogance that
Speaker 1: goes into that thought. I shouldn't have to tell people
Speaker 1: my beliefs. They should just know what are you the
Speaker 1: divine being of the planet? Like, of course we are
Speaker 1: going to have to know, like teach us your side,
Speaker 1: but understand too that we also have a side. You know.
Speaker 1: I say this frequently. Um, It's one of those things.
Speaker 1: I wake up every morning, I meditate, I try to
Speaker 1: picture standing in front of seven plus billion people, and
Speaker 1: I say, what conscious statement can I give the world?
Speaker 1: I do it every day. This is the habit. It
Speaker 1: gives me intentionality with what I'm doing. But one day
Speaker 1: I said something to the effect exactly how phrase that?
Speaker 1: But it was something like those who have traversed the
Speaker 1: mountain from multiple paths are difficult to convince that only
Speaker 1: one path exists. And to me, it's one of the
Speaker 1: statements I felt like came from the depth of me,
Speaker 1: maybe outside of me, because I really do believe this,
Speaker 1: Like we might really convince ourselves no, I know, truth,
Speaker 1: But what if we encounter people who not only heard this,
Speaker 1: but also heard this, this, this, and this and have
Speaker 1: gone up that way. Yep, that's a great statement. It
Speaker 1: made me think of and it's not the same statement
Speaker 1: at all. But the phrase that has come to my
Speaker 1: mind a couple of times, and you'll resonate with this
Speaker 1: being uh Zen Buddhist practitioner, is Suzuki's phrase. In the
Speaker 1: beginner's mind, there's many possibilities and the experts there's few
Speaker 1: I love that I love, and I you know, I
Speaker 1: want to highlight you made a wonderful, wonderful point which
Speaker 1: was even in that sense, and I'm so glad you
Speaker 1: highlighted this even in something as I might be able
Speaker 1: to say statistically that seven out of ten people go
Speaker 1: back to prison, but I agree wholeheartedly that it's only
Speaker 1: my belief that that number is not okay, because someone
Speaker 1: else could have that number and go well, that's a
Speaker 1: good number to have, and that's okay. What I do
Speaker 1: is say, yes, I still do believe. I have my beliefs.
Speaker 1: I'm a practicing Zen Buddhist. This is a belief that
Speaker 1: sits with me. It resonates with me with my family.
Speaker 1: But I'm really open that someone else with a different
Speaker 1: perspective could be absolutely have the correct answers, and I
Speaker 1: could be off. And I really live my life like this.
Speaker 1: I don't think, because I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: who subscribe to this type of approach will ultimately say
Speaker 1: and because I have it, my approach is right, whereas
Speaker 1: I look at and go, no, this is just the
Speaker 1: approach I have, and I love learning, and I who
Speaker 1: how do I know that someone else who's very steadfast
Speaker 1: and narrow in their view maybe they're correct and I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: And yet you still have that belief and you still
Speaker 1: advocate to try and make the world that you've envision
Speaker 1: come to be. Yes, that's it. Some lady called my
Speaker 1: radio show. So I do this radio radio show. It's
Speaker 1: a call in talk show on Monday nights. And the
Speaker 1: lady called in and she said, um, well, I don't
Speaker 1: know about this non attachment stuff. What if this non
Speaker 1: attachment stuff is completely wrong? And I go, yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be, and she was yeah, yeah, oh I guess
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, Like I'm not saying if I
Speaker 1: was attached to non attachment, that would be the same thing.
Speaker 1: And then we talk of the soap of the teachings.
Speaker 1: You wash your coat with that soap, but that's not
Speaker 1: making it clean. To be fully clean, you gotta rinse
Speaker 1: that soap out. It's the soap of the teachings. We
Speaker 1: gotta rinse that off. So even the greatest belief is
Speaker 1: still holding you back. Heinrich Zimmer said, our highest God
Speaker 1: is our highest obstruction to God. So in other words,
Speaker 1: whatever our final vision of what God is, it falls
Speaker 1: short because I'm a quote one more time, that doubt
Speaker 1: opening line. The doubt that can be told is not
Speaker 1: the eternal dow. The name that can be named is
Speaker 1: not the eternal name. In other words, we always fall
Speaker 1: short because it's something more yep, wonderful. Well, we are
Speaker 1: out of time. It just snuck up on us here,
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna wrap up. You and I are
Speaker 1: going to talk more in the post show conversation about
Speaker 1: creativity and how creativity can be either our friend or
Speaker 1: our enemy when it comes to dealing with anger. Listeners,
Speaker 1: If you'd like to get access to the post show conversation,
Speaker 1: a weekly mini episode for me ad free episodes, and
Speaker 1: other great stuff, you can go to One you Feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash join and become a member of our community. Christian,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. I've definitely enjoyed this.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me that everyone listening.
Speaker 1: As always, I send you much peace. All right. If
Speaker 1: what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
Speaker 1: making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast.
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