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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways. I don't know. I'm not you never know

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Speaker 1: what stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi, everybody,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Thinking Sideways. I'm Steve as always, I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by my co host Devon and Joe, and once again

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Speaker 1: we're gonna look into a kind of a big mystery

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Speaker 1: and we're going to solve it. Yeah. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about that, but we've gotten a lot of listener requests

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Speaker 1: for this particular story and we finally gave in, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna do it. We've also gotten a lot of listener

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Speaker 1: requests for longer shows, so just keep in mind, this

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Speaker 1: is what you asked for. It is going to be

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Speaker 1: a long one because ladies and gentlemen, what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about today is we're gonna talk about the Voyage Manuscript.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people have probably heard of the manuscript,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna we're gonna go through all of the

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Speaker 1: details and you're gonna be really surprised at how much

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Speaker 1: there is. Uh To give it a basic overviews, the

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Speaker 1: Voyage Manuscript is a book which is written in an

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Speaker 1: unknown language and it's full of illustrations or maybe a

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Speaker 1: known language, but we don't know what it is, but

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Speaker 1: an unknown alphabet, that's possible. That's possible. Sorry, that's okay,

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Speaker 1: let's strange code. Let's start with the history and talk

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Speaker 1: about the book first. Probably the simplest place is probably

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Speaker 1: the beginning, the best place, Okay, the book itself. It's

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Speaker 1: called the Voytage Manuscript because it was purchased by a

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Speaker 1: man named Wilfred Voynage in nineve But it's been around

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Speaker 1: for several hundred years, and we know some of the history,

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Speaker 1: or people guests at some of the history, and well,

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Speaker 1: I'll just dive right into the history. Somewhere between sixteen

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Speaker 1: hundred to sixteen ten, it's believed that the book was

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Speaker 1: owned by the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph the Second. And

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Speaker 1: this this would by the way, be well over a

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Speaker 1: hundred years after it was created. Well, according to the

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Speaker 1: theories that of the age of creation. Yes, so this

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Speaker 1: is this is a partial history passed through a lot

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Speaker 1: of famous hands. It has. From there it left the

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Speaker 1: Emperor Rudolph the Second's hand and was owned but theoretically

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Speaker 1: by his imperial distiller Um banned by the name of

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Speaker 1: Jacobus two Pensk's, which is an easy namesake. It ends

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Speaker 1: in a seas, so I think I I nailed that

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Speaker 1: between sixteen thirty to sixteen forty five. They think that

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Speaker 1: a German Bohemian alchemist named Joey George Barresh owned it.

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Speaker 1: Sixteen sixty five, it's believed that it was owned by

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Speaker 1: Johannus Marcus Marci of kron Land. Yeah, wherever that is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I tried to that that might actually be a store

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Speaker 1: or not a country. Yeah, I went to the local

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Speaker 1: chron Land. Yeah, yeah, he actually it was I read

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Speaker 1: about this. He was friends with George Barresh, and when

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Speaker 1: Bresh died he willed the book to Marcy of kron Land. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and apparently he was friends with with Mr Kirscher, and

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Speaker 1: Borresch had actually been in correspondence with Kersher because he thought,

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Speaker 1: you felt that Kersher had had he had the smarts

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Speaker 1: to actually decipher break this code. You're right, I remember

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Speaker 1: reading that Kersher he was a very bright guy anyway.

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Speaker 1: But but so he actually he actually hand copied sections

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Speaker 1: of the books of the book and wrote to alan

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Speaker 1: As Kersher twice with these and asking him for his input.

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Speaker 1: And Kersher wanted the book itself so you can look

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Speaker 1: at it and and but Rash was never willing to

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Speaker 1: do that. But then when he died, he willed it

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Speaker 1: to his friend Johanness marci And of kron Land the store,

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Speaker 1: and he willed to him, who almost immediately gave it

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Speaker 1: to Kirsher because he felt like Kirscher was the only

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Speaker 1: guy who would be able to make hatcher tails out

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Speaker 1: of it. That's okay. That that explains the gaps that

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Speaker 1: I couldn't couldn't quite pin down Kirsher, Yeah, and wound

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Speaker 1: up and wind with it. I guess it was destiny. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: destiny For the next couple of centuries. We're talking two

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Speaker 1: d fifty plus years. We don't know where it was.

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Speaker 1: It's believed that the Jesuits had it and that they

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Speaker 1: moved it around Europe from place to place. Why or

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Speaker 1: how is unknown. Well, they're pretty good at keeping records

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Speaker 1: at saying we don't know if this is important or not,

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Speaker 1: but it looks like might be, so we're going to

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Speaker 1: just hang on to it. I just put in the

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Speaker 1: back corner. Yeah, that's one of those thing. I can

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Speaker 1: imagine myself just rooting around my basement two boxes and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there is it. Wouldn't believe I was. I was down

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Speaker 1: in my basement the other day this last weekend doing

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Speaker 1: a little house cleaning and getting and going to stuff,

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Speaker 1: and I found stuff I'd totally forgotten I ever owned. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh wow, that's the joy of having a basement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's see from there. As we said, nineteen twelve, Wilfred

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Speaker 1: Voyage purchases the book. We don't know where he gets

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Speaker 1: it from, or I don't know. I know he purchased it,

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Speaker 1: but I don't remember exactly where. I believe he bought

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Speaker 1: it in Italy, did he? Yeah, I'll run with that

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Speaker 1: because I can't remember exactly where. When he died he

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Speaker 1: gave it to He I believe, willed it to his

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Speaker 1: wife Ethel, who then gave it to a woman named

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Speaker 1: an Nil, who then sold it in nineteen sixty one

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Speaker 1: to a man by the name of HP Krause. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen s the Nine Crowds donated to Yale University's Binicky

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Speaker 1: Rare Book and Manuscript Library. So Yale has it. So

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Speaker 1: Yale has it today. They still have it today for now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that's and that's where it is. That's where they're

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Speaker 1: they've done a great job of getting good photos of

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Speaker 1: it and making it available to everybody. But it's a

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Speaker 1: several year old, hundred year old text, so we don't

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Speaker 1: want everybody leafing through it kind of but it is.

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Speaker 1: But I think it is available if you go in

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Speaker 1: and your researcher of any kind. I know they've made

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Speaker 1: it available to certain forensic scientists. They have you've got

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Speaker 1: to have the credentials to prove that you can get

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Speaker 1: to it. You and I couldn't just walk in there

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Speaker 1: and we have the credentials. The thing about it, I've

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Speaker 1: looked at their photographs of the book online and it's

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Speaker 1: very clear and you know, you can really great. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they've done a really good job, high detail and everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's good. Yeah. All right. So we've talked about the

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Speaker 1: history that we think we know that we're fairly that

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Speaker 1: we yeah, we're fairly sure. People believe they figured it out.

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Speaker 1: Folks have tried to pinpoint where it might have and

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Speaker 1: when it might have been made, and some of that

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Speaker 1: they've done based on characteristics that are in the text itself.

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Speaker 1: Let me just run through some of that. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: it has what they referred to as a upright handwriting

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Speaker 1: style that's reminiscent of Carolinian minuscule, which evidently was in

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Speaker 1: use from eight hundred to twel hundred. Or it's uh, there,

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Speaker 1: there's another it's it's Italian. How do you say that? Show? Okay,

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Speaker 1: which I guess is called the Humanist hand, which was

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Speaker 1: from fourteen to fifteen hundred, and the radio the carbon

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Speaker 1: dating kind of puts it in that range as well.

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Speaker 1: People have also said that the drawings have parallel hatching,

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Speaker 1: and hatching is when you you draw a series of

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Speaker 1: lines to infer shading, which is similar to you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the first guys that really did a lot

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Speaker 1: of that is Da Vinci. If you look at a

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Speaker 1: lot of old drawings, that's how he gave depth and shadows.

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Speaker 1: You cross hatch in there. So people think that it

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Speaker 1: could have been from his arrow, which would have been

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Speaker 1: if it was made in Germany or that style came out,

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Speaker 1: it would have been in Germany and around fourteen ten.

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Speaker 1: If it was made in Florence it would have been

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Speaker 1: fourteen forty, or if it was after fourteen fifty, then

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Speaker 1: it could have been anywhere, because that style had gone

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Speaker 1: across Europe. It had gone viral. Yes, but so that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty good solid like you know, sixty year seven

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Speaker 1: year old window, right. Yeah. For for the cross hatching, yes,

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Speaker 1: and for that that uh kind of matches with the

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Speaker 1: hands for the Italian Yeah, for the Italian hands handwriting style, yes,

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Speaker 1: it does. But we've also got some things some people

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Speaker 1: who have owned the book have made notes on it

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Speaker 1: and in the margin, and that handwriting seems to be

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Speaker 1: done in the style of the fifteenth century. So we're

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Speaker 1: looking at the four hundreds and there's some of the

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Speaker 1: other notes that are written on it, and this is

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Speaker 1: primarily notes that are in the zodiac section. That style

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Speaker 1: of handwriting. People have pointed to say is from the

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Speaker 1: southwest of France, so there's a lot of different places

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Speaker 1: that it could have been just based on basic facts.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of hard to figure out. So

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a manuscript, and so it's

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Speaker 1: like a book, yes, right, And it's um nine point

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Speaker 1: three inches by six point four inches by two inches, right,

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Speaker 1: so it's two inches thick thick, so not a big

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Speaker 1: book though that's like a huge but it's not like

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Speaker 1: one of those massive things you think about from life,

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Speaker 1: which is because you look at the pictures and they

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Speaker 1: look really big. They do, Yeah, exactly, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: blown up, but it's a little book, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: hundreds of vellum pages, and vellum's pretty thin paper material.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of see through almost a little bit too.

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Speaker 1: So it's possible for there to be a lot of

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Speaker 1: pages in a small amount of space, i e. Like

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Speaker 1: old books, old bibles, things like that. You see it

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Speaker 1: on a paper like that. Paper is valuable, so you

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Speaker 1: gotta you gotta use as much of it as possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, make it as condensed as possible. So

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Speaker 1: they're collected into eighteen what are called choirs, which are

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Speaker 1: those little like fold like folded areas. Right. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you look at a traditionally bound book, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you look at it from the top, you notice

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Speaker 1: that you have sections. Yeah, and those are folded over

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Speaker 1: and stitched together and stitched together in one big book. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Those are the choirs, right, each one of them, each

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Speaker 1: one of those sections. Yeah. So depending on how some

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Speaker 1: of the pages are folded or things like that, or

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Speaker 1: how you count them, I guess it's about two and

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Speaker 1: forty pages in total. Um. There's some numbering in the

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Speaker 1: right hand corners of the right hand pages is which

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Speaker 1: pretty much everybody agrees was done by somebody who owned it.

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Speaker 1: So this is one of those people who after the

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Speaker 1: fact owned Yeah, it wasn't done by the person who

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Speaker 1: did it, but who was kind of maybe archiving it.

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Speaker 1: You know, they owned it. They were like, hey, we

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Speaker 1: should probably number these pages. It might be they kept

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Speaker 1: dropping the book and all the choirs would fall a

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Speaker 1: party didn't. Yeah, he started. Yeah, so they are numbered

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Speaker 1: one through a hundred and sixteen, but there's some number gaps,

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Speaker 1: so people think that it's it's probably more like two

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy two pages originally altogether. Yeah, because there

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Speaker 1: are there are missing pages and we don't know what's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be on them, right. And then Wilford Vointage,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned before, acquired the manuscript in nineteen twelve,

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Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of strong evidence that all

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Speaker 1: all the different choirs have been kind of reordered, rearranging

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Speaker 1: it the way they thought it should go. Understanding how

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Speaker 1: that that's correct? Yeah, yeah, I mean you know that

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Speaker 1: or that again. You know, you drop a book and

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Speaker 1: you're like, I don't remember where everything goes I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to shove it back in. You know, it's been

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Speaker 1: around for so long, it's it's quite possible it's been

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Speaker 1: rebound several times since kind of fall apart. So interestingly,

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Speaker 1: know if there's missing stuff, you know, and since it

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Speaker 1: used to be in the hands of the Pope, it

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Speaker 1: would be kind of cool to go through the Vaticans

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Speaker 1: all their archives and see if the missing pages are

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Speaker 1: there of similarities the Vatican. Dear Vatican, this is you've

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Speaker 1: heard of us? Surely Pope frances his favorite podcast. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Um So, anyways, back to the the story, um So, based

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Speaker 1: on modern analysis, we pretty much know that it was

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Speaker 1: written by a quill pen with iron gall ink for

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Speaker 1: the text and the figure outlines, and then colored paint

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Speaker 1: kind of like watercolor color paint. It's color was applied

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Speaker 1: to the figures. Um And the book has been carbon

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Speaker 1: dated to the early fifteenth century, so the early four hundreds.

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Speaker 1: So that kind of corresponds with what we were talking

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Speaker 1: about with the history I bit as well. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you guys want to know about the text itself.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's clearly written from left to right. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so it's got a pretty pretty straight left margin

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Speaker 1: and kind of a ragged right margin, which is what

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Speaker 1: is to be expected, So that gives it's just probably

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Speaker 1: more likely European than Semitic and origin. Some of the

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Speaker 1: longer sections are broken into paragraphs, and some of them

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Speaker 1: actually have bullet points that they're shaped like stars or flowers,

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Speaker 1: and there's no punctuation. And I've noticed as myself going

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Speaker 1: through the text, it's like there's no obvious punctuation in

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Speaker 1: there unless certain characters represent a period, but then we'd

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Speaker 1: be seeing them consistently, and I'm not seeing that pattern.

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Speaker 1: There's no indications of errors or corrections, so there's no

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Speaker 1: no words that have been crossed out, there's no you

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Speaker 1: know how you you do that little thing where you

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Speaker 1: write the word above and there's a little va pointing

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Speaker 1: up to go. None of that going on. And and

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Speaker 1: for as long as this text is, that's amazing. But

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Speaker 1: I feel like that a lot. It happened a lot

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Speaker 1: in those days, but you just like wrote it, and

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Speaker 1: rewrote it, used the papers like write. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how quickly Vellum absorbs in either, but

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Speaker 1: from modern Vellum sucks inc in pretty quickly. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't know about you know, four years ago, how it was.

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Speaker 1: I know that it pulls it in pretty quick. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: the old timing stuff. I was just wondering if the

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Speaker 1: ink takes a while to soak in, and if you

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Speaker 1: have to have a moment to wipe it off, if

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Speaker 1: you make a mistake and then rewrite it, you might

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Speaker 1: be able to blot it up. But I think you

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Speaker 1: see that you'd see the Yeah, books back then were

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Speaker 1: all handwritten. They didn't have the printing press writing. And

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Speaker 1: I think often you see books that didn't have I mean,

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Speaker 1: some of them did have mistakes in them, but some

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Speaker 1: of them didn't. And I think that's one of the

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Speaker 1: intriguing things about this manuscript is that, you know, assuming

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Speaker 1: that it is a real text, it may be suggests

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Speaker 1: that there are other versions of it, or there were

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Speaker 1: other versions. Yeah. I was gonna say, to have written

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Speaker 1: it enough time just that you didn't make any errors anymore.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day when monks would write the Bibles

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Speaker 1: and they would eat, just sit down and make the

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Speaker 1: same page over and over and over, you had to

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Speaker 1: write that thing a lot of times. But here's what

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you is that having a job in which

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Speaker 1: I often write the same thing over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again. It's always like the fiftieth time that you

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Speaker 1: make a mistake, right, It's never like the first time,

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Speaker 1: because you're like on it, you're like the right way,

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Speaker 1: you're really paying attention. And then it's like after you

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Speaker 1: feel like you've written enough times that you like you

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Speaker 1: have it is when you make the mistakes you get comfortable. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can do the cut and paste. Yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: I did in my job, a lot of boiler plate

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Speaker 1: in my reports. Yeah. Yeah, So anyway, okay, back to

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Speaker 1: the text I do to you all the time, so

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Speaker 1: no worries. So anyway, no indications of errors or corrections,

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Speaker 1: and that might be significant. I'll talk about that later,

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Speaker 1: but I'll hold you all a suspense for now. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about that after the commercial. Uh So, they're

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Speaker 1: over a hundred and seventy thousand letters in this text.

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Speaker 1: They call them lifts that and there are thirty five

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Speaker 1: thousand words of varying length in there, from a couple

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Speaker 1: of letters to about ten. They're very simple pen strokes

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Speaker 1: for the most part, so the words seem to follow

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Speaker 1: like a phonological or orthographic law. This is linguistic stuff

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Speaker 1: that I have a hazy understanding of it, meaning that

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Speaker 1: certain characters appear in each word, like vowels. For example.

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Speaker 1: You can't write an English letter without a word without

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Speaker 1: a vowel, so so some vowels are going to just

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Speaker 1: have to be there. Uh. Some characters never follow others,

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Speaker 1: Some always follow others. There's been a couple of in

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Speaker 1: that I've noticed just from perusing the text, and always

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Speaker 1: seem to go together. There's like Q in a year.

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Speaker 1: There's yeah, exactly in this text there there are two letters.

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Speaker 1: Then they might just be a single character too, but

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Speaker 1: it looks like an L and an F, and they

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Speaker 1: always follow each other, and so probably as it could

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Speaker 1: just be a single character. I don't know. But so

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Speaker 1: the characters seem fairly simple, though I think you know

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Speaker 1: right there they they are in one way, but in

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Speaker 1: not another way. Yes, yeah, so anyway characters. Some characters

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Speaker 1: always follow some characters and never follow other characters. Some

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Speaker 1: can be doubled or tripled even, but others not. Some

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Speaker 1: words only occur in certain sections, and some occur throughout

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Speaker 1: the manuscript. And I've noticed as too, even though I

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Speaker 1: haven't read the whole thing. I spotted. I've sort of

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Speaker 1: hopped around a little bit and looked at various pages,

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Speaker 1: and I've noticed some words that appear a lot in

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Speaker 1: some sections and not in others. So and it maybe

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Speaker 1: possibly has something to do with the subject matter of

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Speaker 1: the section. I'm not really sure. There aren't a lot

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Speaker 1: of repetitions among the labels that are attached to the illustrations.

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Speaker 1: The illustrations themselves, even though there's much repetition in the

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Speaker 1: text itself, there's not in the labels, which suggests that

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Speaker 1: they're actually labels. Probably. Yeah, so, and and as Joe

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Speaker 1: was kind of saying, there are different sections, they're actually

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Speaker 1: six to print sections, and this is what we we've

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Speaker 1: defined it as six sections. Yeah, they're fair I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, as Joe is saying, there, they are fairly distinct,

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Speaker 1: at least with the illustrations. Um. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: you know, the one thing that we can kind of

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Speaker 1: know about this manuscript is we don't know what the

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Speaker 1: words say anything like that, but we can look and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: the drawings in this kind of group are all the same.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to say this is a section. So

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Speaker 1: the six sections, there's an herbal section that has drawings

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Speaker 1: of plants, uh, most of which are like really unidentifiable

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Speaker 1: or kind of almost like impressionistic paint drawings of that

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Speaker 1: because of the coloring, the way that it's coloring, but

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Speaker 1: that they're also kind of straft yeah, stylized. I think

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Speaker 1: it's probably the best. Okay, it could be that it

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Speaker 1: was they were drawn by somebody who couldn't draw, which

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Speaker 1: would be interesting because it would mean there are multiple

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Speaker 1: artists because some of the other drawings are like really good,

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Speaker 1: really great. Then there's the astronomical section, which has illustrations

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Speaker 1: of the sun, moon, stars, and zodiac symbols. The so

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Speaker 1: called biological section, which is kind of the most interesting

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Speaker 1: and fascinating one because it's um got some weird kind

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Speaker 1: of anatomical drawings with small female human figures populating systems

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Speaker 1: of tubes and transporting green liquid from place to place.

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Speaker 1: They also have a lot of Christian symbology mixed in

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Speaker 1: with them, and they look really European. And then we

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Speaker 1: have the cosmological section, with mostly circular drawings that are

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Speaker 1: kind of they've they're they're so far they're unexplained to me.

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Speaker 1: It looks a lot like video game maps, right, like

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Speaker 1: different worlds in a video game map, and they're like

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Speaker 1: there's bridges in between some of them but not others,

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Speaker 1: and they're all kind of circular and weird. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that's just what it looks like to me. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's the pharmaceutical section, which is it's called that because

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Speaker 1: it has drawings of containers which often have small plant

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Speaker 1: parts like leaves or roots next to the containers. And

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Speaker 1: recipe section, which consists mostly of like lots of short

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Speaker 1: paragraphs um that have like weird star drawings in the margin.

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Speaker 1: So it's definitely worth the time to go out and

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Speaker 1: take a look at the pictures, indeed, and and they're

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Speaker 1: they're they're fascinating. I think we might have mentioned this already.

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Speaker 1: But they believe that the color was added to the

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Speaker 1: illustrations later on, and the research points out that they

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Speaker 1: believe that they only had four I think it's four

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Speaker 1: colors available, So every time there's a blue, it's the

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Speaker 1: same blue, whether it's it's thinner or stronger, make it

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Speaker 1: lighter or darker, but it's always the same blue or

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Speaker 1: the same green. So they didn't have a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of colors available, which makes sense because you have to mix.

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Speaker 1: You had to mix color by hand at that point,

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Speaker 1: the same berries exactly, and it's not easy to make,

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Speaker 1: so you use all of it and you just make

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Speaker 1: as much as you need. You know. One of the

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Speaker 1: things about the drawings and everything, it kind of makes

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Speaker 1: me wonder is that, as you know, paper was probably

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Speaker 1: pretty scarce back in those days. I sort of wonder

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Speaker 1: if somebody somebody was like making these sketches, somebody else

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Speaker 1: came along and needed some paper to write on and

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Speaker 1: just and just basically rode around these around these drawings.

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Speaker 1: It was completely unrelated. And and then you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: else came along later and did a little color and

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00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: treated them like coloring books. I mean, it's always possible.

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Speaker 1: Anything is possible when it comes to the voltage manuscribed,

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Speaker 1: it really is. And that's one of that, just as

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Speaker 1: in the side. You know, we talked about the history before,

382
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Speaker 1: but it's amazing how long people have been puzzling over

383
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Speaker 1: this thing. Some of the people that like like Mr

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00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 1: Marcy that we talked about earlier, that wouldn't turn it

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Speaker 1: over to what's his name, Mr Kirch, Mr Kirshner or

386
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Speaker 1: Mr Kerscher Uh, he spent twenty years trying to figure

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Speaker 1: this thing out. People currently have spent longer. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it is perplexing. And the illustrations are interesting because typically

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Speaker 1: there's one illustration per page, and as Joe was alluding to,

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Speaker 1: it takes up the majority of the page. And if

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Speaker 1: if we look at the plant one specifically, it's typically

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Speaker 1: the entire plant from route to tips. So it's maybe

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00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: they have a flower drawn here there that's kind of

394
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: a highlight section, but most of it is just that

395
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Speaker 1: one plant and then and that's why people believe that

396
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: they're the text is about those plants. Some of the

397
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Speaker 1: other the other illustrations of the women that you were

398
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: talking about before, a little more perplexing. I think the

399
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: worse the really good explanation for that. I know we're

400
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: going to get to Yes, we got to get to

401
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: the series later. Let's let's let's talk really fast going

402
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: through this description period. Yeah, because I know what people

403
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: want to hear is all these jazzy, cool theories and

404
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: then they want us to solve this mystery. Well, that,

405
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: my friends, is kind of the basic description of the

406
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: Voytage manuscript. Again, I strongly encourage you to go look

407
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: at pictures if you haven't already or look at more pictures.

408
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: Sure they're doing it right now because it's it's you

409
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: can't describe it, and it's it is worth it to

410
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: find the sites that have a lots of the images

411
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: and be high quality versions, because if you look at

412
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Speaker 1: them in say a news article, because there's been a

413
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: lot of news articles about it lately, it doesn't do

414
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: a justice. It's when you get one of those ones

415
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: that you can zoom in multiple times and really see

416
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Speaker 1: the detail. But that's why it really kind of gets in.

417
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: It's really intriguing at that point. Wait, this isn't just

418
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Speaker 1: some crudely drawn thing. There's actually some decent detail in.

419
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Speaker 1: There's really interesting stuff that obviously we all puzzled over it.

420
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Speaker 1: But it's really interesting nonetheless. But it is that time,

421
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Speaker 1: as always, where were going to everybody's favorite part, which theories,

422
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Speaker 1: And I've got the first theory, let's hear it. So

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Speaker 1: our very first theory is that the Voytage Manuscript was

424
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Speaker 1: written by Leonardo da Vinci in a private language, none

425
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 1: other than Leonardo da Vinci as well, start off with

426
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: the top work our way down from there, I gotta

427
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: say from the start, though, that Leo was a better artist. Yes, okay.

428
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: So here's here's the thing. People think, the folks that

429
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: subscribe to this theory, they believe that da Vinci wrote

430
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: this when he was a very young man, maybe a

431
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: teenager or just starting his career. But he hadn't really

432
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: developed his system of of drawing. So this is very

433
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: early on. So it's it's kind of it would be

434
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: like looking somebody who was in a cubist movement, but

435
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: looking at their early works when they were trying to

436
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: figure out how to draw in a Cubist way. It's

437
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: not as developed as the rest of his work. You

438
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: just arend it out. I did. I totally aren't heerd

439
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: it out. I can't help it. Da Vinci was known

440
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: for writing in semi coded ways. He made what is

441
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: you may have heard of mirror script, and what it

442
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: is is that if you took a piece of writing

443
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 1: and you held it into against the mirror right now,

444
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: you can't read it, But if you wrote it as

445
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: if it was that mirror image, it looks like utter gibberish.

446
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: Think about it. You write most people right, and they're

447
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: writing tips to one side. The letters flow to the right.

448
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: In English, typically so if you were to start writing

449
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 1: it from right to left and everything go to the

450
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: other direction, we should qualify. It's not just English, it's

451
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: anything that uses the European. Yes, European uses the Orian alphabet. Yes,

452
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: I believe that's the proper phrase. But but at speaking

453
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: of his mirror script, so did da Vinci use a

454
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: mirror or did he simply learn how to write backwards?

455
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 1: He learned how to write backwards, so he perfected it

456
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: so that he was writing it the wrong way. He

457
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: was also known for writing with his right hand, but

458
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: he was initially a Southpa. He was a lefty, and

459
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: in that time if you wrote with your left hand,

460
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: you were it was a sign of the devil, and

461
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: anybody who wanted to write left handed learned to write

462
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: with their right hand. He rebelled against that later in

463
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: his life and started and went back to using his

464
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 1: left This theory which is primarily advocated by Edith Sherwood,

465
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: she believes that this was something that he did when

466
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: he was first learning to use to write with his

467
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: right hand. How young is she saying that he would

468
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: have been, I mean late teens, early twenties. The impression

469
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: I got the thing that I The problem I have

470
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 1: with this theory is that, first of all, the drawings

471
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: don't look like Leonardo Divinsion, you know. I mean, you

472
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: can say, well, it was an early version of him,

473
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: but they The thing about artists is it always kind

474
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: of looks like that person. You tend to have a style.

475
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: There's inherent things. Particularly in that time in his life,

476
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: he would have been much more advanced than this. It's

477
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: also been pointed out that because of the cross hatching

478
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: that is used, some of the hatching believe that it

479
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: was he wrote it with his right hand, and he

480
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: drew it with his left, and the hatching flows in

481
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: the direction that he would have done it with his

482
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: left hand, which is from right to left. He would

483
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: have gone up or down, but it would have been done.

484
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: It's done at that angle, whereas if I if I

485
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: sit down and do hatching with mine, it's gonna float

486
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: towards the upper right hand corner. And this seems to

487
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: flow towards the upper left hand corner, which so she says,

488
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: he wrote it with his right hand, So that's why

489
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: the script doesn't match most of his notes. It also

490
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have as many It does have similar flourishes that

491
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: he wrote, which a flourish is you can cross your

492
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: tea or twelve year old girls love crossing their teeth

493
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: and drawing a line up and putting a little heart

494
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: at the end. That would be a flourish. Yes, those

495
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: those kind of things are anything that is beyond what

496
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: is needed to make it a little prettier. Is an

497
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: easy way to think of what a flourishes for. Uh,

498
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: this whole theory, I agree, there are holes in the theory. Um.

499
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: Here's here's what I really really found to be. The

500
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: issue is, Okay, I could see that maybe he invented

501
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: a language. The drawings don't match. But let's just say

502
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: he was goofing around. Okay, so he was just doing

503
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: it a different style. He was with the pen in

504
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: his mouth. Maybe. But the problem is DaVinci was known

505
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: for drawing little things into his drawings, and there was

506
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: little codes, evidently that he would put in. And once

507
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: people start grabbing this, they start seeing what they want

508
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: in the images in the illustrations, and suddenly it's there's

509
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: little spikes off the edge of a leaf and suddenly people, oh,

510
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: you see that that spells LEO if you connect the edges,

511
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's seeing what you want to say.

512
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: And that's that's where at first I thought this was like, Wow,

513
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: this is really cool, this kind of makes sense, and

514
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: then it just all and when he shambles off and

515
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: you know it, it makes sense for me. When we

516
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: look at the like the Maidens in the Bath, for instance,

517
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: I can see how somebody could say this artist evolved

518
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: into Leonardo da Vinci. The plant stuff, though, is really

519
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: what trips me up, because it's really awful. I mean,

520
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: just to put it bluntly, it's it's very crude, right,

521
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: there's no perspective or anything like that. So unless we're saying, yeah,

522
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: da Vinci did this when he was like seven years

523
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: old and then came back and wrote it when he

524
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: was twenty, I'm not buying it. I'm just not. There's

525
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: so many plant drawings in here that it's about that, right,

526
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, here's here's the other thing is

527
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: that da Vinci left behind a lot of paperwork, lots

528
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: of drawings, lots of writings. Yeah, he's prolific, not one,

529
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: you know. So if he had invented a private language,

530
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have let it go to waste. A lot

531
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: of his papers, would there would be stuff around there?

532
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, well that's why there's examples of his mirror script,

533
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: because he did a bunch of his notes and he

534
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: had if he had mirror a script, why would he,

535
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: I mean, if he had this, why would he do

536
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: mirror scripts? Exactly? Your script might have been easier. And

537
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: let me also, I'll defend it for a second. Let's

538
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: say that he made this up. He made this this

539
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: secret language of his own, this written language, and then

540
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: he realized, I want to send a letter to Antonio,

541
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: but Antonio doesn't know this language, so he can't read it.

542
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: Whereas if he sends it to Antonio and it's written

543
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: a mirror script, Antonio knows to just hold it against

544
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: a mirror and read what's in the mirror. And that's

545
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: much simpler for other people that you're corresponding to people

546
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: to that. But you know, if you really want to

547
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: encrypt something, and Leonardo was not that dumb, he knew that.

548
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: He knew that, you know, he, I mean, he knew

549
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: that that's the most easily crackable cipher and you know,

550
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: of all time. So if he was truly interested in

551
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: keeping secrets from people other than just maybe he just

552
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: learned how to write backwards just for a novelty kind

553
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: of thing. I kind of think it might have been.

554
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 1: It's something to it. He probably did it on a

555
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: whim to entertain himself and then just kept running with

556
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: it because he was a bit obsessive. He really would.

557
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: It seems like basically things he came up with in

558
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: some of his writings, he would just keep working at it,

559
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: which is why he came up with some very phenomenal things.

560
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of geniuses had that obsessive

561
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: part of their personality. Yeah, and so, yeah, but he

562
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,239
Speaker 1: did some good stuff. Well anyway, let me let me

563
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: talk about another theory, which is that it's a cipher. Yeah.

564
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 1: Ciphers are fun. Yeah yeah, But I'm not the one

565
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: that came up with this theory. This guy came up

566
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: with what I think is probably one of the most

567
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: bizarre encryption algorithms of all times. So this guy, his

568
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: name was William Newbold. He's a professor of philosophy at

569
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania. He cracked this code uh, which

570
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: involves anagrams of characters uh, and he found the character

571
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 1: is not actually not actually in the words of the

572
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: letters themselves, but in fluctuations or variations in the in

573
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: the edges of the ink and the letters. So by

574
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: finding a little so byre finding little wavy, little wavy

575
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: things in the letters, by looking at them through magnifying glasses. Wait,

576
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: so let me let me make sure I I because

577
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: this one was weird. I read it and I thought

578
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: I got it. But you have a better handle on

579
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: it than I do. So if I were to take

580
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: a felt tip pen and just draw a line on

581
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: a sheet of paper, and the ink is gonna bleed out,

582
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: and it's gonna go gonna do it irregularly, right, And

583
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: so you're saying, he then looked at that irregular edge,

584
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: and that's how he deciphered it. Apparently, that's my understanding

585
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: of how it works. And uh, and then and then

586
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: so there's information contained, apparently in those little irregularities. And

587
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: then he converted that information into into letters, which were

588
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: themselves anagrams, which had to be rearranged at the form

589
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: coherent message for for what two and seventy two pages. Yeah,

590
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: well it wasn't that. It wasn't a hundred seventy thousand

591
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: characters anagram now, but there was an anagrams between ten letters,

592
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: and so it's like as an encryption uh techniques, I

593
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: can't think of anything more unreliable, yeah, or difficult. So

594
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: it's bizarre. But there are other people who have thought

595
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: about I mean, there are people all over the web

596
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: who believe that this is actually a cipher um. There

597
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,919
Speaker 1: was a guy named John Manley wrote a critical paper

598
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: about new Bold's theory, and he did go he did

599
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: point out, as I just did, at the unreliability of

600
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: anagramming for cryptography is just you know, it just totally

601
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: shoots a hole in the whole thing. Nobody, nobody does

602
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: ciphers with anagrams, right, I mean, like that's not that's

603
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: not a real thing. That's the thing you do when

604
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: you're like in second grade anything. You're cool. If you're

605
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: actually trying to communicate information to somebody, you don't just

606
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: rely on Oh you're gonna be able to totally rearrange

607
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: these words into the al right word, particularly in a

608
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: language like English, but in other languages too. If you

609
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: have I think, if you have like a friend who's like,

610
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, and you're both totally really genius is at anagrams,

611
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: and some people are not me, but some people are

612
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: then I suppose you could actually communicate doing that, but

613
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: you know, for most of us, it's not gonna work. Yeah, okay,

614
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: that's enough. So as far as it being a cipher,

615
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: if it is a cipher, it can only be one

616
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: kind of cipher, and that is a substitution cipher. Because

617
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 1: if you look at this page, this is from page

618
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: seventy five of the manuscript, if you look at the

619
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: two words that I've underlined, they're identical. Correct, there's three

620
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: of them on this one page. Yeah, alright, So if

621
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: it's anything other than a substitution cipher, then it's say,

622
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: if it's some really sophisticated kind of cipher, then the

623
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: odds are that, say an eight letter word are going

624
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: to be translated by the sophisticated. Say it's say it's

625
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: a one time pad, that the encoded tex is going

626
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: to be the exact same word, especially three times on

627
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: a page. Uh, Statistically, that's just not possible. Or it's possible,

628
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: but it's like infinitesimally small odds of that happening. Unless

629
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: it's a name. Unless it's a name, like it's the

630
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: name of a city or something like that. Yeah, well,

631
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 1: I don't think in this particular case it is on

632
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: that particular But so anyway, Uh, the as you guys know,

633
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've mentioned it before or not.

634
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: The n s A actually had their hands on this

635
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 1: think for a while, and they were they were they

636
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: actually noodle it around, tried to make some sense of this,

637
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: and they were not able to. But if you look

638
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 1: at this, that word has to be since the word

639
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: appears more than once, this can only be a simple

640
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: substitution cipher. And so for our listeners who don't know,

641
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: and you should know if you've been listening to us,

642
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: but I'll tell you whatever, it's a word where a

643
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: letter or a symbol represented is represented by another letter

644
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: or symbol. So so in other words, A would be D,

645
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: B would be F, C would be x, D would

646
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: be M like that. So it's not not in any

647
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: sort of pattern. And then you substitute those letters whenever

648
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: you substitute one for the other. Uh. And so if

649
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: the s A add their hands on this, and it

650
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: quite obviously as a substitution cipher, if it is a

651
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: cipher at all, then they would have cracked it in

652
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: about three minutes. Not no, not three minutes thirty seconds. Yeah, yeah,

653
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: so did you have some big brains are really into

654
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 1: that stuff. Yeah, so it cannot be a cipher as

655
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: far as I can tell. Okay, well, we'll move on

656
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: to our next theory. Yeah, this is pretty exciting. Actually, yeah,

657
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 1: well what would you what would you title this theory?

658
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: I would title this theory Stephen Backs has solved the mystery. Okay,

659
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: well we we were lucky enough to do an interview

660
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: about this with a gentleman who has been in the

661
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: news lately by the name of Stephen Backs. But let's

662
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: let's dr Backs introduce himself. Yeah, okay, my names Stephen Backs,

663
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 1: and I'm a professor of applied linguistics in the University

664
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: of Bedfordshire in England, and my particular interest in the

665
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: Voyage Manuscript is to try and decode it from a

666
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: linguistic point of view. And others have looked at it

667
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 1: from a historical point of view or looking at the

668
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: pictures and so on, but I'm particularly interested in looking

669
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: at the language and the script and trying as best

670
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: as I can to make a start on decoding it

671
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: because the problem with the manuscript so far has been

672
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: that since it was written around about perhaps fourteen thirty.

673
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: No one's been able to decode anything of the script

674
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: or understand anything of the language. So that's the angle

675
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: that I'm taking. Really, So doctor Backs has obviously done

676
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: a lot of research on the manuscript. Highly qualified guys,

677
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 1: very qualified, I would say, almost as qualified as us,

678
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more. We can be gracious on

679
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: this one, very very gracious, but I did. It was

680
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: really interesting to find out what got doctor Backs to

681
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: first start looking at the manuscript. It was kind of

682
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 1: like a random happens. Yeah. Well, well, Leah, Well, I

683
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: was listening to the radio about two years ago, almost

684
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: exactly two years ago, and there was a really interesting

685
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: program about John d and they think he might have

686
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: been the model for the character Prospero in Shakespeare's Played

687
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: the ten fest a kind of mystical, strange wizard like figure,

688
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: and he was really interesting. He tried hard to speak

689
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: with angels and communicate with angels, had a large library

690
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,479
Speaker 1: of different books, and it was thought at one time

691
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 1: that he might have owned this manuscript and then sold

692
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 1: it on to the Emperor Rudolph the Second, who was

693
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: the Holy Roman Emperor. Because we know pretty sure it

694
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: did belong to the Emperor at one time, but it's

695
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: now thought that actually John D didn't have much to

696
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,479
Speaker 1: do with it. But I got into it by looking

697
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: at John D, listening to program on the radio, looking

698
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: at Wikipedia, as of course we all do, and then

699
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 1: finding the voyage the Voyage manuscript from that and thought, wow,

700
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: this has got some really interesting signs and symbols, some

701
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: of them looking a little bit like Arabic at us

702
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: because I studied Arabic for so many years, that really

703
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: intrigued me, and that kind of got me going on it. Really.

704
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: As we were talking to Dr Backs, what I really

705
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of key in on was what exactly

706
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: was it in the text that jumped out at him

707
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: that he first started looking at working one kind of

708
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: his aha moment, Right, Yeah, it's exactly right, his aha moment.

709
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: That's that's the important piece. That's the first piece of

710
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: the puzzle. Yeah, I mean, the very first one was

711
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: I found a pattern which seems to be the repetition

712
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: of of what looked like a R a R. And

713
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: that kind of pattern in the manuscript is quite race.

714
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: I thought, well, that might be a borrowing and it

715
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: seemed to me to be alongside the plant, which I

716
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: knew to be was called the our plant in Arabic,

717
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,920
Speaker 1: which is the junifer plant. So it struck me that

718
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: it might actually be the name of that plant. Now

719
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: I'm not entirely sure that that's that's correct anymore, but

720
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: that kind of got me started on looking for the plant,

721
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: and particularly the first word on each plant page, because

722
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: in many evil manuscripts that's usually where the name of

723
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: the plant was. The first word was the name of it.

724
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: So then I started to look at other ones. And

725
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: besides that, there's a really interesting picture on page sixty

726
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: eight of the manuscript which has a big circle in

727
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: the middle, and it has a face of the moon,

728
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: but the rather sad, gloomy face actually drawn on a

729
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: beautiful little picture. The top left hand corner there are

730
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: seven stars which people reckon are probably the plier. These

731
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: the seven sisters in the constellation of Taurus. So I

732
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: took somebody else's idea which said that the word alongside

733
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: these seven stars might be the word taurus, and basically

734
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: I split it up into the letters, like thinking, the

735
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: first one is probably a tough, the second one probably

736
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: an add the third one could be a work sound

737
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: because of the old form of Taurus's tower, would the

738
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: third the fourth phone will be a ruh and that

739
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: kind of way. Then comparing that with other words and

740
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: other names of the plants, it seems to me that

741
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: there were some patterns going on which would help to

742
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: lead us to a fuller decoding later. But I should

743
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: just empathize that at the moment, it's still provisional and

744
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: it's still very very small. Me when I tell people

745
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: I've deciphered ten words of a thirty five thousand word

746
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: manuscripts all off their chair. But the point is, nobody's

747
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: ever done any before at all. So both even one word,

748
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: if you can say with confidence, and that's kind of something.

749
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: The key thing from from my point of view is

750
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: to look for proper names, and that's partly because previous

751
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: analyzes of language, for example, the discipherment of Egyptian hieroglyphics

752
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, that was the way

753
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: that they did it. They looked for proper names, like

754
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: the pharaohs Rameses or Cleopatra, and once I thought they'd

755
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: found them, they worked out each letter for example, Kirk

756
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: Clay or partly they worked out each letter and the

757
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: sound related to it, and so they built up a

758
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: system of sounds and signs, and then from that they

759
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: went on to find out that in fact that particular

760
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: language was related to Coptic, so that they started with

761
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: proper names. And I thought it would be useful to

762
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,959
Speaker 1: try the same approach with the Voyage manuscript, and people

763
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 1: have tried similar things before. But I think partly my

764
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: background in other Oriental languages such as Arabic and other

765
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: languages with different scripts gave me a kind of handle

766
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: on which I think helped me to get make some

767
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: progress on it. No, you don't have a Roserto stone here? Well, no,

768
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: I mean that would be the beauty of it. But

769
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: unfortunately we don't have any other manuscript or any other

770
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: text of any sort with the same letters and symbols

771
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: as the Voyage Manuscript, which is one reason why it's

772
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: so fascinating. It's the only texts in the world which

773
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: has these letters and symbols. But it has a lot

774
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: of them. I mean, there are thirty or five thousand

775
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: words in the text, but we can't read any of them,

776
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: so it's very frustrating as well. And so we asked

777
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: dr Backs about some theories that perhaps the language that

778
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: is in the document, in the manuscript is the written

779
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: alphabet of the written language of a in extinct language.

780
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 1: And here's what you have to say, Well, the extinct thing.

781
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: I didn't actually say that. I mean, what I suggest

782
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: is that the script might has definitely become extinct because

783
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: no one else has used the script, but that the

784
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: language underneath, the language underneath could well be a language

785
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: that has has modern descendants, or could be a fully

786
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 1: fully existent modern language. Um. I mean, if you take,

787
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: let's take an example of Armenian, let's imagine that it

788
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: might be Armenian. Well, you then say to yourself, why

789
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 1: if it was the language was Armenian, why would they

790
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: write it in a different script when they're a fully

791
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: formed Armenian script they could have used. So, in other words,

792
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: it must be some group of people who had to

793
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: divide the script for themselves because there wasn't a script

794
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: already there for them. And some people have suggested interestingly

795
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: that it might be a Romani, the kind of gypsy

796
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 1: language which also has interesting Indian roots, because obviously the

797
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: Romany tribes are supposed to have come from Indian migrated

798
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: across Asia into Europe. And that's quite an intriguing idea.

799
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I believe that either, but it's intriguing

800
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: because of course they are a group who didn't have

801
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: their own script, who would have had to develop their

802
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: own script if they wanted to encode all of this

803
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: knowledge that they had. And then arguably you could argue

804
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: they might have been that group might have been suppressed

805
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: or died out, and their knowledge and their script died

806
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: out with them. But yet still we have the Romani

807
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: language around which which we could use to interpret it,

808
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: and that does actually have a bearing with the Egyptian hieroglyphs. Eventually,

809
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: Egyptian hieroglyphs were shown to encode the Coptic language, which

810
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: existed but had been suppressed for many decades and didn't

811
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: have its own writing system. So there are kind of

812
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: parallels which make you think it could be something like that.

813
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: So one of the places that we ran across Dr Backs,

814
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: he's kind of all over the internet right now, was

815
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 1: his Reddit am a that he did ask me anything.

816
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: And one of the theories that was floated in this

817
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 1: was that it may have been written by this Italian

818
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 1: explorer Nickelodeon Conti and his Indian wife and children. He

819
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: was Italian, his wife was Indian, and the flourishes look

820
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: a little Hindy to me. You know, I really liked

821
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: this theory, so I asked Dr Backs about it, and

822
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: he had something kind of interesting to say. Yeah, I

823
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: like that theory too. I mean, I like the idea

824
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: that it's kind of made by like a family or

825
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: I really like that idea. But the problem is that

826
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: if we jumped too quickly to identify an author, we

827
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: tend to block out other possibilities. And I think, you know,

828
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: the the idea of your your your kind of podcast

829
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: being thinking sideways, you know, I think we've got to

830
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: kind of keep our minds open and be aware of

831
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: all kinds of possible things. But I do like that

832
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: ticular idea about the county idea. I mean, a lot

833
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: of people assume it was written in Italy because it

834
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: was found in Italy and because some of the script

835
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 1: looked a little bit kind of Latin. But my personal

836
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: idea that it was probably a little bit further east

837
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: than that, and I would, you know, be looking in

838
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: the area of kind of Turkey, the Caucussus, Western Asia,

839
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, but it does have. The thing

840
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: is if you look at the pictures that are a

841
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: lot of the pictures very European in their style. There

842
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: lots of European female figures, there's some European clothing in there,

843
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: there's some interesting European looking buildings and stuff. But when

844
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,319
Speaker 1: we say European, it could equally be kind of Near

845
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: Eastern Turkish, Armenian, George and that kind of area. So

846
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of more likely than a purely

847
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: European origin, mainly because the words that I've brought I've

848
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: managed to identify seem to have more of a kind

849
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: of Near Eastern, as you said, Arabic Persian basis, rather than,

850
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: for example, a Latin basis, So that's kind of where

851
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: I would kind of go for it at the moment. Obviously,

852
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: Daubeck has invested two years of research into this. He's

853
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 1: not just going to let it drop. So he is

854
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: going to continue to look into the manuscript. But he's

855
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: got some really creative ideas and how to keep doing

856
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: that research, and how to get some help with that research.

857
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: As I said, I've got my my website with Stephen

858
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 1: backs dot net, which is I'm making it more into

859
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: a forum for people to come and give their ideas

860
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: of and so we've got the kind of areas for

861
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: people to look at the plants and give their ideas,

862
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: areas to look at the stars, and some really interesting

863
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: contributions now about the star names in the manuscript, and

864
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 1: I think that's a good next source for information where

865
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: we could actually go and try and I mean again,

866
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: typically in those days and also now a huge number

867
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: of the star names that we we have come from

868
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 1: Arabic originally, and that I think could be a good source.

869
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: I don't think that the names and the one Witch

870
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: manuscript are directly from Arabic, but I think many of

871
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: them may well be derived from Arabic. So again that

872
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: could be another source of helping to identify maybe some

873
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 1: new letters and new sounds and so on. So that's

874
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: I think it's a really exciting area to But my

875
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: problem is I'm very ignorant about plants. I'm very ignorant.

876
00:48:58,920 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: I need I need a lot more people to kind

877
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: of chip in and help with their knowledge and say no,

878
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: that's that's a good idea, that's rubbish, and so on.

879
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: It's crowdsourcing is a great way to go about solving

880
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: problems like I mean, you know, you get a lot

881
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 1: of people who basically so you know, maybe this is crazy,

882
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: but maybe x Y and said, he said, well, you know,

883
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: all ideas are on the table, we might as well

884
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: look at them, and even if you know you think

885
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: it's crazy, let's put it in the pot and see

886
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: where we can go from there. Okay, at this point,

887
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 1: we've gone on quite a bit, quite a bit of time,

888
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: and I'm sure most of you, if not all of you,

889
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 1: have too peace, and we're only halfway done exactly, and

890
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: so we're going to have a short intermission for your convenience,

891
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: and we're back. So this next theory, Doctor Backs actually

892
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: directed us towards. Thanks Dr Backs. Thanks Dr Back, very

893
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: nice of him. He directed us to a article in

894
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: a magazine now periodical. I think it is called the

895
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: Chronica Horticulture. It's Latin, and the article is called Biological

896
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: Section of the Voyage Manuscript, a textbook of medieval plant physiology.

897
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: Question marks, question mark physiology. So this theory goes well, Okay,

898
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 1: this theory is put forth by two doctors, doctor Tias

899
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: and Tias. I think they're married, but they might be siblings.

900
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest, I don't know. I couldn't tell

901
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: there they have the same last name. It may actually

902
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: just be a coincidence. They just might have the last

903
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: name last name doctor's tias. Can I say that doctor's tias.

904
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 1: The doctor's tias have doctor and his companion. It's a theory.

905
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for the nerd reference. It's a theory based

906
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: on the plants too, just like doctor Backs's theory. But

907
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: they their goal is not to decipher the words, but

908
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: to tell us what the manuscript, or at least the

909
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 1: section of manuscript is about a textbook of medieval plant physiology.

910
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: They claim that you can't actually identify any of the

911
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 1: images by the plants, which, sorry, doctor Backs, is kind

912
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: of true. They are hard to identify it. Again, this

913
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: is something we talked about, is the illustrative quality or accuracy.

914
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: It's yeah, they're they're very it's simplistic and it's hard.

915
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: You know, the fifteenth century plants were a little different

916
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: back then. We don't really they were kind of misshapen

917
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: and had no perspective. No, but we don't know where

918
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: they're from, right, so we can't even say, like, well,

919
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: plants in this area at this time were these were

920
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of like, well, in Europe in the maybe fifteen century,

921
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: the plants were kind end of maybe this and these

922
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 1: are the ones that we know we're in vaguely kind

923
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 1: of looks like this one. So it might be that one. Right,

924
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: So they say that's that's what's not important. They want

925
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: to talk about the theory to explain the nude women

926
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 1: in the green tubs um and the tia theory is

927
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: totally radically different. It claims that this explains how plants

928
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: get their nutrition. So this is this is truly and

929
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: I know the name said this, but this is truly

930
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: a biological plant physiology brook So this is saying how

931
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 1: nutrients go from the roots to the tips. Yeah, so

932
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 1: so bear with me, right as as I'm sure most

933
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: of you know, right because you passed second grade. Plants.

934
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: Plants get their nutrition from the sun and the ground,

935
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 1: right from the air, and from the air, most of

936
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: it is through water, nutrient rich water that they suck

937
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 1: up through their roots and then kind of digest using

938
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: the song. That's like the most simplistic way that I

939
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: can describe what happens the whole thing. Yeah, he hasn't

940
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: he has suggests that since this idea would have been

941
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 1: really new in the fifteenth century, this manuscript was developed

942
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: to kind of explain it to people. That makes sense, Yeah,

943
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: except they sort of slipped and wrote in the language

944
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 1: nobody just so that maybe the manuscript was meant to

945
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: and I'm quoting here delight entertained and instruct the reader,

946
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 1: and the women would have represented the souls of the plant.

947
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: Now you might be wondering why so many souls per plant,

948
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: because it would ostensibly be one plant per page. Right,

949
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: So Aristotle actually has a really good answer for this.

950
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: He said, you know, way before this manuscript was ever made,

951
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 1: plants or chicks, that plants have a lot of different souls.

952
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 1: What he said was that when you cut a human

953
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: or animal in half, they die because they only have

954
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: one soul. So you cut their soul in half. Their

955
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: souled eyes. But wait a second, has anybody ever tried

956
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: rooting a human being to see if you can actually?

957
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: You know, good question. We should probably try that next week. Yeah,

958
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: anybody want a volunteer, No, I think we'll get to

959
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: find an outside volunteer for this one. Okay, So we'll

960
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: just go with the theory that when you cut a

961
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: human in half, they probably die right normally, But when

962
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: you cut a plant into half or many different segments,

963
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 1: it'll live for a while or forever, sometimes forever. Sometimes

964
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: they can kind of regenerate, you know, your replant it

965
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: cutting cutting and replant it and it becomes a new thing.

966
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: So it follows by ancient kind of theory that that

967
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: plant must have many souls. You look super angry and confused.

968
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: I'm confused. I'm I'm following this. This is not in

969
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: my wheelhouse follow kind of think ancient times. And that's

970
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: that's where I'm having the difficulty. Ha. Yes, I'm following

971
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 1: the logic you're such a higher being's it's it's such

972
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: a different mode of thinking. As an allegorical depiction of

973
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: how the plant works. The problem I would have with

974
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: this is like, for example, the one one that I

975
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: can think of, where there's this plant like structure and

976
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: his green and there's all these naked women. But if

977
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 1: you you know, going and they're not, it appears from

978
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: the picture that they're not going up the plant from

979
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: the soil to the top of the plant. It appears

980
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 1: that they're sliding down a water slide into a pool.

981
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 1: At the bottom. They're going in the wrong direction. The

982
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: souls might be going a wrong direction, but the water

983
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: might not be. But but again I think, Joe, I

984
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: think you're having a bit the same issue I am

985
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: is that we understand that and a plant and a

986
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: biological perspective that everything rises from the roots up, whereas

987
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: they may not have had that perspective, and so they

988
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: viewed it as going down or circulations. Yeah, it could

989
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: have been a circulatory system. So the other thing about

990
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: this t S series, they talk a lot about the

991
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: large amount of Christian religious imagery through the manuscript Um.

992
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: They point specifically to again the biological section with these women.

993
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: A lot of them are holding what can kind of

994
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: be identified as rosaries. There's one woman holding what is

995
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: clearly across um and they've looked at illuminations, are really

996
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: closely at. One of the sources they cite is if

997
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: you look really closely at the head of us of

998
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: one of the sunflowers, there's a cross in it. You know, Okay,

999
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 1: I gotta I I need to stop you there, because

1000
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,960
Speaker 1: this is the same thing that I had an issue

1001
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: with with this being something by da Vinci. And remember

1002
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: I said, people thought they saw his name written in

1003
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 1: things in kind of a hidden way. I looked at

1004
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: that image and it's happenstance to me that it looks

1005
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: like a cross. You have to infer the cross into

1006
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: that plan. Whereas if I was drawing that and I

1007
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 1: knew how the seeds were going to radiate out, to me,

1008
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 1: the easiest ways to draw the X and the y

1009
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: axis of circles to make the seed pattern and then

1010
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: just fill in the holes as you go around working

1011
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: your way out, So that I have an issue with that. Also,

1012
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, it also could have been a plus sign

1013
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: the plant map. Yeah, I mean, so it is fairly indisputable, however,

1014
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 1: that these the women often are have these kind of

1015
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 1: religious symbols, and I think their theory is is that

1016
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: this is the time in history where Christianity is kind

1017
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: of on the rise, and it's kind of a turbulent

1018
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: time for Christianity. True, and that this could really easily

1019
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: be interpreted as like a pagan something. I think, you know,

1020
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: they're kind of where they end their theory is that

1021
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: so these people put these Christian religious things in there

1022
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 1: so that people wouldn't it wasn't yeah, so people would

1023
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: know it wasn't pagan, but well no, it was just

1024
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: it was just educational manual. So so, but but you

1025
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: said that they said that it may have been a

1026
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: pagan manual or were they saying that it might have

1027
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 1: been a mistaken for a pagan manual that the author

1028
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: and illustrator wanted to ensure that nobody would ever look

1029
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: at this and be like, this is obviously pagan witchcraft,

1030
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: so that they were not pagan, that they were a

1031
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: Christian and they were like, hey, don't worry, guys, this

1032
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: is totally Christians. Is totally legit, totally legit, above board. Well, actually,

1033
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: if you're putting naked women and then you probably want to,

1034
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: I can have some crosses and rosaries to yeah, totally,

1035
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: just to just to cover yourself. Yeah, well there was,

1036
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: but there was that nudity in in art and illustration

1037
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: was not a frowned upon thing at that time. The

1038
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: human form and that that you know, females were always

1039
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: represented in that man There were there were no naked

1040
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: bike rides. That was kind of like beyond the pale

1041
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: yes that was that was pushing on the paintings. Yeah,

1042
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: so that's kind of the TS theory. It's interesting it

1043
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 1: only addresses that one little section. That's the problem is

1044
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 1: it only addresses one section of the whole thing. Yeah,

1045
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: I mean as opposed to course they don't they're not

1046
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: required to you by law. The astrological section, you know,

1047
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: the astrological sections are I guess at that point the

1048
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: only sections that they don't really address, right, because it

1049
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: does address the biologic illuminations, right, pharmaceutical and the pharmaceutical

1050
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: stuff as well, so it just doesn't address the star

1051
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: stuff and and and that gives it some credence. I

1052
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: I can understand the theory. I understand it better now

1053
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: that you've explained it to me, because when I read it,

1054
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: I didn't get it. You're welcome, but thank you, But

1055
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: I still I have qualms with it. And it's the

1056
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: same thing Joe said, because it's really focused in one

1057
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: and I again, as I said before, I think that

1058
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: people see what they want to say. Yeah, And I

1059
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: can tell you that one of the doctor's tias is

1060
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: apparently an accomplished watercolorist in plant life. And they are

1061
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: both plant professors basically the people. Neither of them is,

1062
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: but they're both. They're both biologic doctors. Biologic doctors yep, biologists.

1063
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: Biologists the word I was looking for, thank you. So there.

1064
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: Neither of them are linguistic professors, which is why they

1065
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: avoid Well it makes sense. I don't know if you

1066
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: know this, but have they basically focused on the drawings

1067
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: and not really paid a lot of attention to the

1068
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: text itself. Yeah, they focused entirely on the drawings, and

1069
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: I as far as I can tell, they are no

1070
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 1: longer researching and are no longer interested in researching. Yeah,

1071
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of, it's kind of it's kind of a

1072
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: hair puller. You know, a lot of you know, this

1073
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: paper that I read was published in I think two

1074
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: thousand two or something like that, and it's, as I

1075
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 1: can tell, the last time, that's the only thing they

1076
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: ever published about it. So interesting theory. Our next theory

1077
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 1: is the Nueva Spana theory or New Spain theory, and

1078
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: New Spain New Spain is when the Spanish came to

1079
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: the New World and they started taking over and conquering.

1080
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: They took over Mexico a little bit after that. A

1081
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 1: little bit after that, Yeah, and then they also started

1082
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: taking over parts of the continental US. Well to them,

1083
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: that was they named it all New Spain, New York basically, yeah,

1084
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: or New Amsterdam is it's it's called but yes, So

1085
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: that is what Nueva Espania means is New Spain, and

1086
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: that's the area that references in and New Spain really

1087
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 1: took up a lot of the center of the current

1088
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 1: United States, so it's a very huge area. So this

1089
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 1: the Nueva Spania theory is put out by two gentlemen.

1090
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: We've got Dr Arthur Tucker and Mr Rexford Talbert, and

1091
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 1: I had some brief email correspondence with Dr Tucker and

1092
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: he was kind enough to send me their their research

1093
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 1: and their writing. You get a condensed format, but there's

1094
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: a lot to it, but let me kind of kind

1095
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: of boiled down what their theory is. What these two

1096
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 1: gentlemen decided to do was, rather than try to decipher

1097
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: the next right off, they did something similar to what

1098
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: the doctor's tias did, which is they focused on the illustrations.

1099
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: They wanted to try and figure out if they could

1100
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: pinpoint those illustrations to specific plants, and they didn't just

1101
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 1: focus on Europe. They went they looked at plants that

1102
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: were known and had been discovered across all of the

1103
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: known world at that time, and we're talking the mid

1104
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: fifteen hundreds what they found and and and they when

1105
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: they when I say the mid hundreds, that's when they

1106
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: think the manuscript was first quote unquote discovered. It happened

1107
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: in the well. They're they're basing it off of plants

1108
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: that they knew were in the fifteen mid hundred range.

1109
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 1: And that's and that's based on some other writings, which

1110
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: I'll get to in just a second. But what they

1111
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: did is they looked at the plans and one of

1112
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: the ones that they found was called the Soap Plant.

1113
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 1: They matched up the illustration in the description the illustration

1114
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: to other books that were put out in this time range.

1115
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 1: The soap Plant is depicted in the fIF fifty two

1116
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 1: Codex Cruise batter Nous of Mexico. And I might have

1117
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:28,080
Speaker 1: mangled that pronunciation, but it's a book that came out

1118
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: of Mexico at that time, and it evidently is considered

1119
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: the first medical text that was ever written in the

1120
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 1: New World, and that was written by Spanish in the Spanish. Yes, yes,

1121
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: And they took that and they said, wait, we've got

1122
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 1: these illustrations from that region of the world. Seemed to

1123
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 1: match this one plant let's try and match it to others,

1124
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 1: which is not a bad way to do it, you know.

1125
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: Let's not look like I can't understand what the writing is.

1126
01:04:58,080 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: So let me see if I know what the pictures are.

1127
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: That's how kids learn how to read, right. It really

1128
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: is still working on that. According to their research, they

1129
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 1: have identified thirty seven plants, six animals, and one mineral

1130
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 1: in the manuscript to the America's How did they identify

1131
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: the mineral, That's what I'm curious about. I'm not exactly

1132
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 1: positive how they came to that conclusion. To be honest,

1133
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: I read their research, but it's a little above my

1134
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: pay grade, and so I didn't quite understand everything. This

1135
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 1: whole thing is above but don't worry. But anyway, these

1136
01:05:44,240 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: plants were depicted in other writings from post conquest Mexico

1137
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: and North America. So they're saying, well, we see these

1138
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 1: and we see those, so we kind of draw the

1139
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 1: two together and say that it must have come out

1140
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: of that region of the world. Are they saying then

1141
01:06:04,840 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: that plants in the New World are blobbier and lack perspective? No,

1142
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,200
Speaker 1: But I guess my question would be that the female

1143
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: figures right, not to like drive too hard on this,

1144
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: but they're very clearly very European, and it's kind of

1145
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 1: Western European. It's not what you see. The illustration style

1146
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: of Mexico and North America at that time when the

1147
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: Spanish had come was very different, different, and that even

1148
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: just the illustration style of that time in Spain was

1149
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 1: totally You don't see naked women from Spain in this period.

1150
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 1: In fact, you see like really covered in black clothing,

1151
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: very like morose women from Spain in this period. So

1152
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: I wonder if they have a theory to kind of

1153
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: reconciles not forget it well, in that exactly it, because

1154
01:07:00,880 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 1: you've got to remember that there's multiple cultures that have

1155
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: been conquered, and they have different beliefs, and they have

1156
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 1: a different way of doing things, and it may have

1157
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:16,040
Speaker 1: been this weird melting pot and and here's here's something

1158
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 1: that they write because they do try to address the text.

1159
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: They don't try and crack it, but they do try

1160
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: and address it. And I'm gonna, yeah, let me read

1161
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 1: this directly. Here. A search of the surviving coduses and

1162
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: manuscripts from Nueva Espana in the sixteenth century reveals the

1163
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 1: calligraphy of the Voytage manuscript to be similar to the

1164
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: Codex Assuna, which is fifteen sixty three to fifteen sixty

1165
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 1: six evidently was written in Mexico City. Loanwords for the

1166
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: plant and animal names have been identified from the classical

1167
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 1: And again I'm gonna apologize on the pronouncea. How is

1168
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: that again? Nah? Yes, that the Spanish, the Tino and

1169
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: mixed texts, which are all different cultures in that area.

1170
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 1: So they they're kind of to me, it sounds like

1171
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 1: it's we're melting them all together. Everybody's together in the

1172
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 1: styles are all kind of shifting together similarly. I've gotta

1173
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 1: I gotta say that I took a look at the

1174
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 1: Codex Alsuna and I didn't think the calligraphy was all

1175
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,280
Speaker 1: that similar. It's not. And this is the issue. It's

1176
01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:36,800
Speaker 1: the same thing again. I don't mean to beat a

1177
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: dead horse here, but we go back to Da Vinci. Yeah,

1178
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: the style is the same, but everybody kind of used

1179
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: the same kind of writing implement which forces you to

1180
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: write in a similar manner, but they're not the same.

1181
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 1: I don't know. I kind of like the theory that

1182
01:08:52,360 --> 01:08:55,679
Speaker 1: like it's another relic of the Aztecs. And that's that's

1183
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: kind of where this point they I never saw them

1184
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: come out directly and say this is an Aztec language derivative,

1185
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: but you really kind of get that sense the way

1186
01:09:08,360 --> 01:09:11,680
Speaker 1: they write about that. Again, the Codex a Sooner was

1187
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:17,480
Speaker 1: written by Spanish and by my Spaniards, correct by Aztecs, right,

1188
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,599
Speaker 1: And so you know these guys actually took the trouble

1189
01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: to to learn this, this ancient written language of the

1190
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 1: Aztecs before they murdered him. Well, but if you think

1191
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 1: about not not every Aztec would have been killed, some

1192
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 1: of them would have escaped, either as slaves or free people.

1193
01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: You've then got a job, and they pass this on

1194
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,520
Speaker 1: to their children. You've got to hang onto your cultures,

1195
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,759
Speaker 1: as every every culture does, teach it to your children,

1196
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: so it doesn't go away. And some of that might

1197
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 1: have bled true. I gotta tell you. I looked at

1198
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: some of the some of the alphabets and of the

1199
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 1: additionous people's like the Maya, the Mayan's, the all Man

1200
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 1: and the Aztecs, and they were basically they didn't seem

1201
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: to have a written alphabet so much as hieroglyphics. And

1202
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 1: so I mean I don't know that there's any evidence

1203
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 1: that's that any of the indigenous cultures here had any

1204
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: kind of writing system like this, But I got to

1205
01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,679
Speaker 1: be honest, I think one of the most compelling theories

1206
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 1: in terms of who might have written this is that

1207
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: it was, you know, like a slave language or like

1208
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 1: a gypsy roving caravan language, because it's it just kind

1209
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,800
Speaker 1: of fits the parameters right with the language that's trying

1210
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: to be actively trying to be not what a lot

1211
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:39,600
Speaker 1: of people are writing. Then it's meant to be a

1212
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,360
Speaker 1: private language, but that it's written for a lot of people,

1213
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 1: but that it was a group of people that could

1214
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: have very easily been integrated into a different culture or

1215
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 1: died out. I think that's a very interesting idea. It

1216
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 1: is that you know, you know what with that theory,

1217
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 1: the problem I have with it is that there would

1218
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:59,240
Speaker 1: be other remnants of this language around and instead of

1219
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,599
Speaker 1: just this one thing. And so that's why I find

1220
01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 1: out a little hard to believe. But that's also the

1221
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 1: hard part about history, and especially areas that are a

1222
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: lot of turmoil during history. Think about all the relics

1223
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 1: from the past that had been burned and destroyed, have

1224
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 1: been burned. Yeah, I mean these things, you know, we

1225
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: people gather, Oh my gosh, these are all the same.

1226
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,559
Speaker 1: We've got a house and we've got to protect them.

1227
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 1: And then somebody drops a lamp and the whole thing

1228
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: goes up and smoke. So it could be that they

1229
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: had collected all this stuff and somebody was writing it

1230
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: and they it was the Inner Library Loan of the

1231
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,600
Speaker 1: Aztec World, and they sent it to somebody else, and

1232
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,800
Speaker 1: then the entire library goes up in flames, and here's

1233
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 1: the one surviving copy of it. But you know, actually,

1234
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:49,560
Speaker 1: you know, one thing I could conceive of is that

1235
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: imagine an ancient surviving text from somewhere, something, something that's

1236
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:58,240
Speaker 1: really really old, and somebody like a monk along about

1237
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 1: the fourteen fifteenth century, finds it and it's kind of

1238
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 1: crumbling and he thanks. You know, I've got nothing else

1239
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 1: going on in I lift in my life. So you know,

1240
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,560
Speaker 1: maybe what I'll do is I'm going to copy this

1241
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 1: whole thing over, even though I don't even quite understand it,

1242
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 1: copy the whole thing over, and just so it's preserved

1243
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,880
Speaker 1: for posterity, you know, And so maybe that maybe if

1244
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: this thing is actually real, which again I'm not buying

1245
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 1: into that entirely, but maybe if it is, maybe it

1246
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: actually dates back a lot further and somebody basically made

1247
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: hand copy of it, and that's the one we have.

1248
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 1: So we're looking at a flawed copy, is what you're saying. No,

1249
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 1: it might, it might. It might be a meticulous copy.

1250
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:36,479
Speaker 1: But it's a copy. So that means that number one

1251
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be precise. It's not that

1252
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:41,439
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be a xerox. Yeah, and it could

1253
01:12:41,439 --> 01:12:45,120
Speaker 1: be potentially thousands, that's what I'm saying. It's it's something

1254
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 1: that could be much much older than the fourteenth or

1255
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: fifteenth centuries. Interesting, And that's that's a good theory. I

1256
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: hadn't even thought about that before. I only thought about

1257
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:58,800
Speaker 1: just now. Well, while while we're on crazy theories, I

1258
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: have one because I feel like a little bit of

1259
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: a looney theory. It's a good one. Yeah, I like.

1260
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:07,799
Speaker 1: I like the loony lunacy of it. This one, however,

1261
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: I shouldn't. I shouldn't be cruel, right, I should be,

1262
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: but a little bit. Yeah, let's have it. There's a guy,

1263
01:13:17,479 --> 01:13:24,720
Speaker 1: what's the guy's name, vicolat Vola. That's a crazy name,

1264
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: it's pretty crazy. Yeah, So he thinks that the Voytage

1265
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:33,760
Speaker 1: manuscript details the spontaneous creation of d n A through

1266
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: the use of sound or a direct line from God.

1267
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:44,599
Speaker 1: Not making fun of keep going because this is where

1268
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 1: he gets well. So basically he thinks that this manuscript

1269
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:53,280
Speaker 1: is not something to be deciphered. It is something to

1270
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: read and pray on and channel prophecy directly from God.

1271
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: So he says it's religious text basically, Yeah, so more

1272
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: than a religious text. It sounds like it's kind of

1273
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 1: like the ark of the cabinet. It's actually channel's enormous energies. Right,

1274
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, I guess how I would how I describe

1275
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 1: it as like when people speak in tongues, that it's

1276
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,599
Speaker 1: like written in tongues almost, and that like you could

1277
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 1: read it and pray on it and meditate on it,

1278
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,080
Speaker 1: and if you were the special kind of chosen person

1279
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: by God, he would come down to you and say, oh, yeah,

1280
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 1: this is what it means. He's actually using this method,

1281
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,400
Speaker 1: has deciphered someone was for some of it for us,

1282
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 1: and I will read to you what he says it is.

1283
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 1: This is verbatim, and again he deciphered this. How just

1284
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: to praying on it and go okay, because he's one

1285
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: of the worthy people. You know. I gotta say that's

1286
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:49,840
Speaker 1: a pretty cool and sacrament system. It's like unbreakable. Okay.

1287
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: So the name of a flower its heart of fire.

1288
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,560
Speaker 1: It makes the skin beautiful when made an ointment, the

1289
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 1: oil is pressed from the buds. The ointment is used

1290
01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 1: for the wrinkles. It is suitable for the kidneys and

1291
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 1: the head, as the flower prevents inflammations. It is antibiotic.

1292
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 1: Plant is ten centimeters in its height. It grows hot

1293
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,599
Speaker 1: and dry slants. The plant is bright green by its color.

1294
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 1: And it's in Ethiopia. In somewhere in Ethiopia. You're welcome everyone. Well,

1295
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, actually I've got some wrinkles. I'm going to Ethiopia.

1296
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: I guess. You know. The thing is is like believe

1297
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 1: what you want. But it's like, how hard is it

1298
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: to believe somebody who says, well, I am the only

1299
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: person who can decide. Through through the years, there's been

1300
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,840
Speaker 1: a lot of Charlatans that have come forward and said

1301
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:44,719
Speaker 1: they had the translation. And I'm not going to pitch

1302
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 1: a stone at this guy, but he seems to be

1303
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: part of that camp. To me, that's that's that's kind

1304
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:55,680
Speaker 1: of mostly it just seems too convenient, Yeah, especially for

1305
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 1: something that's so popular. The thing that I know about

1306
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:02,760
Speaker 1: people who act really receive prophecies is that they don't

1307
01:16:02,800 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: go around screaming about it, and they don't speak in

1308
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: the way that this guy is speaking, which is like,

1309
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm so much better than you, I know everything, and

1310
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:14,120
Speaker 1: this is so there's a little arrogance in there that

1311
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:16,760
Speaker 1: you don't appreciate arrogance. Yeah, I think that, like, you know,

1312
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 1: if you, okay, find whatever you're going to receive a

1313
01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: prophecy from God, sure I should come with a little

1314
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,120
Speaker 1: humility because don't say you're the greatest person in the

1315
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,560
Speaker 1: world exactly, because I leave that to your your followers

1316
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 1: to do. And I've now set up a website where

1317
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:34,000
Speaker 1: you can donate at because I know, and if I've

1318
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:36,040
Speaker 1: got a direct line to God, I don't want to

1319
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 1: piss God off. And you know, queer that whole deal,

1320
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 1: you know, So I'm gonna I'm gonna totally be you know,

1321
01:16:41,720 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: humble about the whole thing. I don't know, it's just

1322
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:48,360
Speaker 1: a weird Yeah, that situation, that's a really incoherent theory.

1323
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: What about what about the lizard people. Dr Backs suggested

1324
01:16:52,439 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 1: this theory. Yeah, yeah, he suggested this theory. Yeah, that

1325
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:05,160
Speaker 1: there's like subterranean lizard people. What do you think? Do

1326
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 1: you want to let him tell it? Yeah, let's let's

1327
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,639
Speaker 1: have this. He had a pretty good take on it. Yeah, okay,

1328
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: well a recent one. I actually appeared on Coast to

1329
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:17,400
Speaker 1: Coast Radio on US Radio a few nights ago, and

1330
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 1: someone emailed me and suggested that they're convinced that the

1331
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 1: manuscript was written by lizards, lizards from having inside living

1332
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: inside the earth. Yeah, now that was me just kidding. Now,

1333
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:35,120
Speaker 1: I said to them, I hope not, because that means

1334
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 1: that we may be we may be somebody's lunch quite soon.

1335
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 1: But that that was That was one idea which I

1336
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 1: haven't seen before. Okay, well, so much for the lizard people.

1337
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 1: So next theory is that it's a hoax. There's a

1338
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of different theories out there. One

1339
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,519
Speaker 1: is that Voyage himself wrote this, created this entire thing,

1340
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: and made up that he bought it somewhere in Italy.

1341
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of unbelievable because never one

1342
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 1: why would anybody bother? But never But more importantly the

1343
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:08,799
Speaker 1: age of the materials. Did he happen to stumble across

1344
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 1: some vellum and some ink that was like five years old? Yeah,

1345
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: I remember back had a pretty interesting take on this.

1346
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: We're illuminating. Let's let's go to him. A few years ago.

1347
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: The Yale Library which owns the manuscript now, and they

1348
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 1: got some people from the University of Arizona to look

1349
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 1: at the vellum and study it. So they took very

1350
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,480
Speaker 1: tiny samples of the velom from different parts of the manuscript,

1351
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:37,799
Speaker 1: and they analyze them and found that they're very consistent

1352
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: in their dating to round about four four thirty, with

1353
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: a certain range, of course, but definitely it's fifteenth century,

1354
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 1: and that throughout a lot of the other series. There

1355
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,799
Speaker 1: were theories that it was made in the seventeenth century,

1356
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: or that it was a twentieth century hoax and so on.

1357
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 1: But unless somebody kept a large amount of expensive vellum

1358
01:18:57,479 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 1: for hundreds of years without using it, which seems a

1359
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:04,680
Speaker 1: bit unlikely, I reckon it's a fifteenth century manuscript. And

1360
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 1: also the ink, and I've analyzed the ink and that's

1361
01:19:06,800 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 1: all entirely consistent with that date. That no kind of

1362
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 1: modern chemicals, innocent song. So it seems to me that's

1363
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:14,519
Speaker 1: one of the few things we can be pretty sure

1364
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:17,600
Speaker 1: about it. It's the fifteenth century manuscript. Another theory is

1365
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 1: that it was a hoax by Roger Bacon. Sir Roger Bacon,

1366
01:19:22,160 --> 01:19:23,680
Speaker 1: was he, sir? Well he was a night, wasn't he.

1367
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,280
Speaker 1: I think so, yes, Sir Roger Bacon. Uh. Some people

1368
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: have theorized that it was created by Roger Bacon. Bacon,

1369
01:19:31,360 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 1: as you know, it's one of the original fathers of

1370
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:38,639
Speaker 1: the scientific method, and Voyage himself believed that Bacon wrote

1371
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,320
Speaker 1: the book and only Bacon would have the capability of

1372
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 1: doing so. The problem with this theory is that Bacon

1373
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:47,519
Speaker 1: died in twelve nine, which is long before the Board

1374
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 1: the book was created. Yeah, so that unless somebody was

1375
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,479
Speaker 1: copying his work like you would suggested, it could have

1376
01:19:55,560 --> 01:20:00,280
Speaker 1: been Bacon. Somebody could have copied, but it wasn't Bacon. Yeah,

1377
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: it wasn't Bacon. I'll tell you why. Well, yeah, right,

1378
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 1: Bacon didn't do it. Somebody. It could have been a hoax.

1379
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:11,920
Speaker 1: Somebody could have done it. Somebody could have done this

1380
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:13,960
Speaker 1: as a hoax. The reason I don't think it was

1381
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:18,960
Speaker 1: a hoax is this, if previously I mentioned page seventy five,

1382
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:23,519
Speaker 1: and I found other pages that have some some recurring words.

1383
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:26,280
Speaker 1: So there's a word on here that I'll call golf

1384
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 1: C C eight G. So if you look at it,

1385
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: look at the actually yeah, yeah, yeah, um, So this

1386
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:39,800
Speaker 1: is what I was talking about that recurred a couple

1387
01:20:39,840 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 1: of times in the page that you wouldn't expect to

1388
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 1: in any sort of space. Right. Well, on the same page,

1389
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:50,760
Speaker 1: this word appears like about nineteen times, and I was

1390
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:55,240
Speaker 1: noticing that, and small variations on the word I've underlined

1391
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: them in different the word itself of an alige in origin,

1392
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 1: and the variations i've an aligned in green. And so

1393
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: I have a look. Yeah, so it looks it looks

1394
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 1: a bit like there's the the a, but also maybe

1395
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: it's like a ce, but maybe it's like two seeds.

1396
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: So it's a question of like, yeah, is this a

1397
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:14,240
Speaker 1: small variation. It's it's just bad handwriting, variations in handwriting,

1398
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 1: because they're all slightly different. But it looks to me

1399
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:21,400
Speaker 1: like just differences in handwriting. So the word the word

1400
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,840
Speaker 1: appears like many, many, many times on this page, and

1401
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 1: sometimes it appears one right after the other. Uh. And

1402
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:32,599
Speaker 1: so if you're trying to concoct a convincing hoax, especially

1403
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 1: if you're Sir Roger Back and a smart guy, then

1404
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 1: you're not going to do something as stupid as this

1405
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:39,240
Speaker 1: unless you have utter contempt for your the people you're

1406
01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 1: trying to fool. Uh. And I think it goes for

1407
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 1: pretty much any hoaxter that you're not going to repeat

1408
01:21:45,439 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 1: the word forty times on a single paget looks really well.

1409
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: And I and I know Joe and I briefly discussed

1410
01:21:53,280 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 1: this is. I see in the words that you've pointed

1411
01:21:56,320 --> 01:22:00,640
Speaker 1: out some similarities, but they're they're not entical to me.

1412
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 1: And when I look at them, let's say, let's just

1413
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 1: call it. The last three characters are seemed to be

1414
01:22:08,520 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 1: relatively consistent with the small variants, but let's just call

1415
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:15,240
Speaker 1: them consistent. But I don't see that that means it's

1416
01:22:15,280 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: the same word. To me, it's the same thing as

1417
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,960
Speaker 1: having I N G at the end of something. So

1418
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 1: I am seeing being believing those all in in the

1419
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: same I guess for me to like take Joe side

1420
01:22:32,520 --> 01:22:36,800
Speaker 1: on this, the first part looks really really similar. In words,

1421
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:39,839
Speaker 1: there's just the middle like one or two letters depending

1422
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,960
Speaker 1: on the word that are a little different. And I

1423
01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 1: think that, like, okay, so right, believing twelve times in

1424
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:48,360
Speaker 1: a row, it's not going to look these. No, it's

1425
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 1: not gonna look identical. You're right. So that's what I

1426
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 1: think we're seeing is small handwriting variations and when and

1427
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 1: I I know that that you're looking at these and

1428
01:22:57,600 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 1: some of these I'm looking at the same page as

1429
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 1: you are, and I don't think that they are identical.

1430
01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 1: And and let me just just explain why is if

1431
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:16,040
Speaker 1: you look at words that are written in an older

1432
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:22,360
Speaker 1: handwriting or even type setting style, you can see, let's say,

1433
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:26,280
Speaker 1: the letter F, there's what's known as a ligature where

1434
01:23:26,400 --> 01:23:29,560
Speaker 1: two letters are joined. So if you have an F F,

1435
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 1: it can be just right lower case, lower case, right

1436
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:35,920
Speaker 1: next to each other, or there's a ligature where the

1437
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:41,320
Speaker 1: fs are actually connected to make what looks like one character,

1438
01:23:41,920 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 1: but it is one character in a type setting personally,

1439
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 1: but they're they're two different. Some of those look like

1440
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:53,200
Speaker 1: the cross of what we're saying is the F of

1441
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 1: golf sometimes too seems to be short and contained, sometimes

1442
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:01,080
Speaker 1: seems to come across the L. And I don't disagree

1443
01:24:01,160 --> 01:24:04,479
Speaker 1: that maybe that is just handwriting, but to me, in

1444
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 1: a way. I almost wonder if they are different and

1445
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 1: distinct characters. I'm not just I'm not, you know, disavowing

1446
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:16,600
Speaker 1: what you're saying. I just I see intricacies in the

1447
01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: letter forms that I don't know mean that they're the same.

1448
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:23,040
Speaker 1: But you're writing it's hard to say. It is hard

1449
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 1: to say that I have just drawn on this. Do

1450
01:24:27,120 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 1: you know how much that's worth? I collection, I've been

1451
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: going over with a highlighter. I'm gonna mail it back

1452
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 1: to them. The way that the author forms the a

1453
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 1: kind of it's kind of like two CS and I

1454
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 1: just drew on their Joe's looking at it. Yeah, I

1455
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 1: see what you're saying. It's like I think that that's

1456
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: just handwriting. Like this one here, for example, there's two cs,

1457
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 1: but they're sort of like the second sea is drawn.

1458
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:58,280
Speaker 1: It's so close it almost looks like the one character.

1459
01:24:58,360 --> 01:25:01,400
Speaker 1: But I think they're two se us. This is not

1460
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: and this is why this has been going on for

1461
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:08,080
Speaker 1: at least a hundred years that we know of for sure.

1462
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:11,600
Speaker 1: If not therefore, yeah, I know exactly. But but but

1463
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that, like as far as the

1464
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,400
Speaker 1: hoax thing goes, the fact that this same word, and

1465
01:25:16,439 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 1: it appears to me to be the same word. Let's

1466
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:23,720
Speaker 1: let's accept but okay, well i'm let's but you know,

1467
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 1: let's just accept that if you're doing a hoax, you're

1468
01:25:26,200 --> 01:25:29,240
Speaker 1: not going to do words that look exactly look look

1469
01:25:29,479 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 1: very very similar to the word right next to them,

1470
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:34,400
Speaker 1: over and over again in your text. You're not going

1471
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:35,880
Speaker 1: to do that because you want to you want to

1472
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: have a really convincing hoax, you know, So this is

1473
01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: not the way to do it. So obviously these are

1474
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 1: these people were either very incompetent hoaxters or it was

1475
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,719
Speaker 1: not a hoax. Alright, well, so much for the hoax.

1476
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:51,680
Speaker 1: We've conclusively proven it's not a hoax. And so well,

1477
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,559
Speaker 1: not exactly because I mean, actually, if you're a hoaxter,

1478
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 1: you're probably you're probably kind of convincing. Your readers are lazy.

1479
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,280
Speaker 1: You're not going to get that from the page. And

1480
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:03,200
Speaker 1: that's just Gonn glanced at it. Look at the pictures,

1481
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 1: especially the naked bodies, you know, stuff like that. Yeah,

1482
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: so that's the blah blah blah. We shouldn't know that

1483
01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 1: the words that we were just talking about are literally

1484
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 1: right next to a pool with a bunch of naked

1485
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:17,519
Speaker 1: women in Yeah, so onto our next theory. The next

1486
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:22,160
Speaker 1: theory is it's just gibberish. Gordon Rugg a British psychologist,

1487
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,120
Speaker 1: and says that there's a case that it might just

1488
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:28,600
Speaker 1: be entirely made up and just gibberish. He published a

1489
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,679
Speaker 1: paper in two thousand four saying that it's a hoax

1490
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: most likely, and he had come up with the system

1491
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 1: that used uses a grill of words. Basically, so he's

1492
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:44,840
Speaker 1: got three tables side by side, uh prefix, root, suffix,

1493
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:47,639
Speaker 1: and then a piece of cardboard that's got three little

1494
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: rectangles cut in it. You move this thing around on there,

1495
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: and wherever you light upon you've got three, you know,

1496
01:26:55,280 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: one or two characters for the prefix and maybe three

1497
01:26:57,920 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 1: for the root and one or two for the suffix.

1498
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 1: You just copy those down ontoor manuscript and then move it,

1499
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:05,840
Speaker 1: copying the next set down, copying the next set down.

1500
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:07,640
Speaker 1: You can get up. You can come up with a

1501
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 1: gibberish system that is very consistent and kind of convincing,

1502
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:17,040
Speaker 1: and so that and uh so, basically he made up

1503
01:27:17,360 --> 01:27:21,639
Speaker 1: gibberish language to prove that though this looks like regular language,

1504
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 1: it's just who or it could be it's a it's

1505
01:27:25,320 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 1: a uh. He He also named the suspect, which is

1506
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: Edward Kelly was a con artist. Yeah, yeah he uh.

1507
01:27:34,680 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 1: If you're one of our listeners, you might want to

1508
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 1: do a Google on this. There's a language that Edward

1509
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:43,360
Speaker 1: Kelly and this other guy created. Andrea Schinner I believe

1510
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 1: was him. Uh. They created a language they called Enokian,

1511
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 1: which is spelled e n O c h I A

1512
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: n He was. He was close friends with Queen Elizabeth

1513
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,479
Speaker 1: the first Yeah, just throw that, yeah, and okay and

1514
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:57,799
Speaker 1: so and Okian is uh if there's there's a wicky

1515
01:27:57,920 --> 01:27:59,280
Speaker 1: on it and you can read all about it. It

1516
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:02,800
Speaker 1: doesn't the characters don't look like this, but it's it's

1517
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:06,040
Speaker 1: entirely conceivable that this guy maybe could have made up

1518
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:11,599
Speaker 1: another bogus language besides the nokiin so, but besides fraud.

1519
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: I mean, we're back into the fraud thing again. Another

1520
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:18,759
Speaker 1: theory is that it's gibberish because it was just basically

1521
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:23,080
Speaker 1: somebody who was autistic did this, and so some of

1522
01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 1: somebody was just like just sat down and you know,

1523
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 1: maybe from a wealthier family. So they actually had some

1524
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:31,320
Speaker 1: envelopment ink for him to write with. So if you're

1525
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: a peasant, you probably don't have that. And h or

1526
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:36,679
Speaker 1: maybe he was an autistic monk and he just wrote

1527
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,840
Speaker 1: a lot of gibberish and drew a lot of weird

1528
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:43,719
Speaker 1: drawings and stuff. And I think that the autistic based

1529
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: on my based on my looking at some of these pages.

1530
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna show you guys another one here on

1531
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,839
Speaker 1: page seventy five, we saw the recurrence of a particular

1532
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:55,639
Speaker 1: word in my opinion and Devon's I think, many times.

1533
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: And you get along to page eighty, it's another one

1534
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:02,400
Speaker 1: who randers it randomly selected and the word of the

1535
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,160
Speaker 1: day on that one is one that I called gulf

1536
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:09,479
Speaker 1: a g O L F A W and that appears

1537
01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:12,599
Speaker 1: many many times on this page. Uh. The other one,

1538
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,600
Speaker 1: golf c C A G appears on here too, but

1539
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:19,599
Speaker 1: it seems to not appear quite as much. Yeah, which

1540
01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:22,679
Speaker 1: would suggest to me as somebody who is possibly artistic

1541
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 1: and somebody who's a little ow c D. He'll fixate

1542
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 1: on a set of characters and reproduce us over and

1543
01:29:28,920 --> 01:29:31,840
Speaker 1: over again until another one comes along. It catches sort

1544
01:29:31,880 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 1: of catches his interest and he starts writing those. I

1545
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:37,560
Speaker 1: can see that that that makes sense and it's not.

1546
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 1: And we've seen things like that and you know today, yeah, yeah,

1547
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:44,320
Speaker 1: and and the fact and the fact of the matter

1548
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:48,360
Speaker 1: is is that I can't think of any comprehensible language,

1549
01:29:48,400 --> 01:29:50,800
Speaker 1: any language that we know about, that would have this

1550
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:53,880
Speaker 1: kind of repetition in it. This is not I don't

1551
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:57,160
Speaker 1: believe that this is language. I think it's gibberish. And

1552
01:29:57,479 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: and and so I'm basically what I'm putting forth is

1553
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:04,280
Speaker 1: the autistic month month theory. Yeah, I can see that,

1554
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:07,880
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to disparage that at all. What

1555
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:10,439
Speaker 1: I do wonder, though, is if we look at this,

1556
01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: some people have said, well, this is a scientific manual

1557
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:16,640
Speaker 1: of some kind, and have you have any of you

1558
01:30:16,920 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 1: ever cracked open a biology book and you'll see the

1559
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:25,120
Speaker 1: Latin name followed with the derivative that's more of a

1560
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:29,880
Speaker 1: general name, and you'll see that word every couple of

1561
01:30:30,040 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 1: words in there. You know, it's the genus blah blah blah,

1562
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: genus blah blah blah, genus blah blah blah, genus in

1563
01:30:35,240 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 1: different variants. So I almost wonder if it's let's just

1564
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:40,640
Speaker 1: say it was the soap plant, because that was in

1565
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:45,559
Speaker 1: the New Spain theory is it's the soap plant something

1566
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:52,040
Speaker 1: something soap plants plural, and then something something soap planting.

1567
01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, I'm just spitballing here, but

1568
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,040
Speaker 1: I could see why that repetition might be in there

1569
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 1: for that one, because they're referencing it's specifically over and over.

1570
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 1: And I know that what people prescribe as the names

1571
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:11,120
Speaker 1: of the plants on the pages aren't the words that

1572
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 1: you're pulling out. But I'm just I'm kind of I'm

1573
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:16,879
Speaker 1: looking at it. I'm wondering if maybe that's a possible

1574
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 1: reason for this frequency that you're seeing. To further that, right,

1575
01:31:20,320 --> 01:31:22,680
Speaker 1: if we're going to take like the Latin name of

1576
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 1: a plant, somewhat in that Latin names of plants, are

1577
01:31:25,960 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 1: this word repeated, this word right, like brutus, brutus or something. Obviously,

1578
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:34,640
Speaker 1: that's so that would help explain why I'd be like

1579
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:39,240
Speaker 1: in succession. I honestly like just throw that out there.

1580
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,759
Speaker 1: Don't know where I land on this theory. Somewhere between

1581
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,679
Speaker 1: the two of you. Well, I gotta tell I'm gonna

1582
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:46,439
Speaker 1: tell you, I have not had a chance to review

1583
01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:50,479
Speaker 1: um a huge amount of this manuscript. I'll probably look

1584
01:31:50,479 --> 01:31:52,439
Speaker 1: at some more of it. I'm not going to devote

1585
01:31:52,479 --> 01:31:55,240
Speaker 1: my life to it. I haven't had that much time.

1586
01:31:55,320 --> 01:31:58,040
Speaker 1: So I went out and basically randomly pick some pages

1587
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 1: and just started looking at looking at stuff and looking

1588
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 1: at patterns, and I started noticing repetition in the world,

1589
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:07,920
Speaker 1: and and and so I would encourage our listeners to

1590
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,679
Speaker 1: go out and look at page seventy five and page

1591
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,560
Speaker 1: a D and look at look for the repetition, but

1592
01:32:12,640 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 1: also look at other pages, but also look at other

1593
01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 1: pages and tell us what you think. Tell us what

1594
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 1: you think about about the theory. See if you find

1595
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 1: a similar sort of pattern of repetition of words over

1596
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 1: and over again, which would kind of support the theory

1597
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 1: that I think. And there's a true crowdsourcing here to

1598
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 1: support my theory that this was some person with O

1599
01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:36,840
Speaker 1: c D or a person with autism who was sat

1600
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 1: down in a little room somewhere with some vellom and

1601
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:43,040
Speaker 1: some ink and just did his thing, just obsessed over,

1602
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:47,960
Speaker 1: just kept doing. And yeah, and so uh, there is

1603
01:32:48,000 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 1: another theory. This is uh. This is also from page

1604
01:32:51,360 --> 01:32:55,920
Speaker 1: seventy five. There's a four letter grouping that appears repeatedly

1605
01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:57,800
Speaker 1: also in some of the words that we've talked about,

1606
01:32:57,840 --> 01:33:01,720
Speaker 1: like saying golf c C h G for the first

1607
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:05,000
Speaker 1: four letters of that word, which really do look too

1608
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:08,560
Speaker 1: to my eyes like golf, geo lf. They really do

1609
01:33:10,000 --> 01:33:12,040
Speaker 1: appear many many times in that pain. I can just

1610
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:17,720
Speaker 1: imagine ancient plaid shorts. Yeah, for you know, as we

1611
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 1: saw recently pbr shorts. Yeah. So anyway, take a look

1612
01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,240
Speaker 1: at that, telling what you think. Uh, would you agree

1613
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 1: that it appears there a lot? Oh? Yeah, but I

1614
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: guess for me, there are a lot of languages in

1615
01:33:29,840 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 1: this world that instead of doing like I n G

1616
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:35,599
Speaker 1: like we do, right, do a prefix like that's possible

1617
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:40,400
Speaker 1: to it? Doesn't Arabic do something like that. It's it's

1618
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 1: a suffix in Arabic. Uh No, anyway, But if you

1619
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:46,120
Speaker 1: look at it, though, it does look like golf, which

1620
01:33:46,439 --> 01:33:48,960
Speaker 1: leads me to believe that this was actually a text

1621
01:33:49,040 --> 01:33:57,240
Speaker 1: written by and a medieval golf pro plans to avoid. Yeah, exactly.

1622
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:00,040
Speaker 1: And and and in this particular spot, he's got the

1623
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:02,200
Speaker 1: naked chicks on the on the golf green. Do you

1624
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 1: see that it's green and they're naked. Yeah. Yeah, that's

1625
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:08,800
Speaker 1: how you distract your rivals at the game. Yeah, So

1626
01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:11,519
Speaker 1: it's a medieval golf bro. So do we have any

1627
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:14,960
Speaker 1: other theories? We do? Another one? We do? We do?

1628
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: We have? I think we have one more. It's just

1629
01:34:17,280 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: the one more left, which is opening the gates to

1630
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:27,599
Speaker 1: crazy town. We talked about the lizard people a little bit. Well,

1631
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:32,800
Speaker 1: a lot of people are putting forth that they think

1632
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 1: that this is a book written in an alien language

1633
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:42,680
Speaker 1: by an alien people who have left it for us

1634
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 1: to teach us one. I don't know. I you know what,

1635
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest with you. I am so glad

1636
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:52,599
Speaker 1: that our listeners like that we hate the alien theories. Yeah,

1637
01:34:53,120 --> 01:34:55,680
Speaker 1: here's here's the thing about the alien theory. And this

1638
01:34:55,960 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 1: this I actually this is pretty interesting when you get

1639
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 1: it into is it the I think it's the cosmological

1640
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:07,920
Speaker 1: section where there's kind of what seems to be almost

1641
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:14,320
Speaker 1: like celestial bodies. Well, there's illustrations that appear to be

1642
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 1: the Milky Way galaxy, the spiral of the Milky Way,

1643
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:25,160
Speaker 1: and they also appear to be the Andromeda galaxy. And

1644
01:35:25,439 --> 01:35:29,519
Speaker 1: and the thing is we can because we have the

1645
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:35,440
Speaker 1: technological capability Havelogy have the technology to look at these galaxies.

1646
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,920
Speaker 1: We can see what they look like. The problem is

1647
01:35:39,040 --> 01:35:42,400
Speaker 1: is that if this was written in the early to

1648
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:48,800
Speaker 1: mid four hundreds, we didn't have the technology to see that.

1649
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: We know, the telescope to be able to focus on

1650
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:56,880
Speaker 1: a galaxy that is so far away, or to have

1651
01:35:57,040 --> 01:36:00,519
Speaker 1: something that can see our own galaxy, we didn't have that.

1652
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 1: I mean the regular telescope using lenses that came about

1653
01:36:05,360 --> 01:36:10,439
Speaker 1: in the sixteen hundreds about right, I think even earlier

1654
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:13,240
Speaker 1: than that. But I mean, but it wasn't such a

1655
01:36:13,360 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 1: high quality that you could you could see a blob. Yeah,

1656
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 1: exactly at the time that this was written, people were

1657
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:23,120
Speaker 1: already looking at Andromeda and had already been noted. But yeah,

1658
01:36:23,160 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: you couldn't make out the spiral arms, right, we didn't.

1659
01:36:26,280 --> 01:36:29,240
Speaker 1: We couldn't clear, we couldn't get the clarity. So that's

1660
01:36:29,280 --> 01:36:32,960
Speaker 1: where people say, well, we didn't. We couldn't see it

1661
01:36:33,400 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 1: that well to note all that detail to then draw

1662
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:41,080
Speaker 1: and record that, which means that somebody else was out

1663
01:36:41,160 --> 01:36:46,600
Speaker 1: there and able to see that. Yeah. Yeah, no, I

1664
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,879
Speaker 1: mean Galileo was around in like the late fifteen hundreds.

1665
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:53,800
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know how accurate carbon dating is.

1666
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:56,040
Speaker 1: I don't know how sure we are about this stuff.

1667
01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 1: That is like that's within a hundred years. I feel

1668
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:02,040
Speaker 1: like that's maybe within the margin of error. But now,

1669
01:37:02,120 --> 01:37:04,360
Speaker 1: Galileo and I don't think I ever ever made out

1670
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:09,800
Speaker 1: the spiral arms of Andromeda. He personally probably not. But

1671
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:13,840
Speaker 1: but that's that's I don't think. Yeah, that's fair, yea.

1672
01:37:14,080 --> 01:37:17,000
Speaker 1: But also, who's to say I am apparently playing Devil's

1673
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 1: advocate on this one today? Are apparently who's to say

1674
01:37:19,920 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 1: that that wasn't just like a artistic license exactly, somebody

1675
01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:27,880
Speaker 1: just made up a spiral so the spiral um and

1676
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:31,360
Speaker 1: I missed this particular port, this particular illustration. Is it

1677
01:37:31,439 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 1: a spiral s seen from above or is it as

1678
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:38,400
Speaker 1: sort of an oblique angle? It's from above, yeah exactly,

1679
01:37:38,600 --> 01:37:42,200
Speaker 1: it's from above, yeah exactly. So it could very easily

1680
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 1: be people again seeing what they want to see and

1681
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 1: applying it to what we now know, yeah exactly. And

1682
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:53,000
Speaker 1: so the Aliens might have shared with us the Andromeda

1683
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:55,479
Speaker 1: or you know, are we also live in a spiral galaxy,

1684
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 1: and so the Aliens might that might be a depiction

1685
01:37:58,400 --> 01:38:01,640
Speaker 1: of our own galaxy. You know, Devon, just tell up

1686
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:03,559
Speaker 1: a picture of it to me. This is obviously a garden.

1687
01:38:04,960 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 1: It's obviously it looks a bit like a labyrinth. It's

1688
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:11,080
Speaker 1: a plan for a garden. Okay, no galaxy, never mind

1689
01:38:11,280 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: ancient landscape architect. It might have been that the Aliens

1690
01:38:16,160 --> 01:38:20,879
Speaker 1: came down to us and basically bought brought us tributes

1691
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:26,559
Speaker 1: of shrubbery. That this looks like, Hey, I just pulled

1692
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:29,960
Speaker 1: up another picture of it, of course, but I maintain

1693
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 1: that it looks a lot like a video game map

1694
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:37,720
Speaker 1: of the world, or like like I don't know, like

1695
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:42,720
Speaker 1: a blueprint for buildings or something. I mean, you know,

1696
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 1: it could be a lot of things. You kind of say, oh,

1697
01:38:46,400 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 1: it's stars, but again it's something where you don't know

1698
01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 1: what the hell of the text is describing. I can

1699
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,519
Speaker 1: make it anything I want. This is why I like

1700
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,120
Speaker 1: the approach that dr Backs is taking someone because he's

1701
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 1: trying to figure out the word, because he figure out

1702
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 1: what they are. He has been presented right with so

1703
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:08,880
Speaker 1: many different theories about like, oh, maybe this person wrote it,

1704
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:12,759
Speaker 1: maybe it's about this, and he keeps saying, that's very interesting.

1705
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,360
Speaker 1: But I'm going to approach the text linguistically. A smart

1706
01:39:16,439 --> 01:39:19,439
Speaker 1: move because you can say, yes, the minute you say

1707
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:23,759
Speaker 1: this is about biology, you start to decode the text

1708
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:26,920
Speaker 1: and it's about biology because you can make it be

1709
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:30,000
Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be. So again, that's why

1710
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:33,040
Speaker 1: I think like his approach is really the most interesting

1711
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:39,120
Speaker 1: and probably the the best that we have right now. Yeah, though,

1712
01:39:39,640 --> 01:39:44,720
Speaker 1: dr backs, if you're listening, please look at page We

1713
01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 1: spend too much more time on this. I'm a little

1714
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:51,559
Speaker 1: disturbed by what I see there. Yeah, and I feel

1715
01:39:51,640 --> 01:39:53,760
Speaker 1: kind of bad about this. I've been pretty busy lately

1716
01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: and I didn't have time to start attacking this until

1717
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:59,200
Speaker 1: pretty recently. And if I had more time, I would

1718
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:01,160
Speaker 1: have been looking at more pages to find more of

1719
01:40:01,240 --> 01:40:03,559
Speaker 1: this stuff. But that's what our listeners for. They're going

1720
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:05,400
Speaker 1: to go out and do this, and that's what the

1721
01:40:05,479 --> 01:40:07,840
Speaker 1: last couple of hundred years of people trying to figure

1722
01:40:07,840 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 1: it out before you have also been doing. So there's

1723
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 1: a ton of legwork already done for us. Yeah. Does

1724
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:18,080
Speaker 1: anybody else have any last minute theories to to put

1725
01:40:18,120 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 1: out on this one before we put it to bed

1726
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:24,160
Speaker 1: pod people? No? No, no, no, let's say perfect spheres

1727
01:40:24,720 --> 01:40:29,280
Speaker 1: the Tyler. No, it's definitely not him. So which, Joey,

1728
01:40:29,439 --> 01:40:33,600
Speaker 1: what do you believe that it's? Yeah? I think that

1729
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:38,360
Speaker 1: it's gibberish written by an autistic person most likely. Okay, Devin,

1730
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:40,400
Speaker 1: how about how about you? Where do you follow that?

1731
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:44,880
Speaker 1: I honestly don't fall anywhere on this. I think that

1732
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, as I was just saying that Dr Facts's

1733
01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:51,800
Speaker 1: approach is kind of probably the most solid approach, is

1734
01:40:51,960 --> 01:40:56,479
Speaker 1: that you just kind of have to say, uh, but

1735
01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:59,760
Speaker 1: let's see if we can decipher the text. Although I

1736
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:01,880
Speaker 1: do like the theory that was floated in the A

1737
01:41:02,040 --> 01:41:04,719
Speaker 1: M A that it was this like family that wrote

1738
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:06,840
Speaker 1: this thing. They're all really smart. It has kind of

1739
01:41:06,920 --> 01:41:14,040
Speaker 1: HINDI flares. It might have been Italian, but of me says,

1740
01:41:14,280 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, got it? Well? I I also really

1741
01:41:18,400 --> 01:41:20,840
Speaker 1: I like the direction that Dr Max is going, and

1742
01:41:20,880 --> 01:41:25,120
Speaker 1: it seems the most solid and concrete. I also appreciate

1743
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:29,800
Speaker 1: the different approach that Dr Tucker took with the way

1744
01:41:29,800 --> 01:41:33,600
Speaker 1: of a Spana that seems to have some credence. I

1745
01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:36,960
Speaker 1: see holes in it, but I see holes in just

1746
01:41:37,120 --> 01:41:41,240
Speaker 1: about everything that's done, and so I I unfortunately I'm

1747
01:41:41,320 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 1: not I'm not settled on one particular theory. I see

1748
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:48,360
Speaker 1: things that I like that are promising, and that's as

1749
01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:51,680
Speaker 1: far as I'm willing to go. Yeah, all right, Well,

1750
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, if you have any theories. I'm sure

1751
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:58,240
Speaker 1: you do, then we would love to hear from you.

1752
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:01,400
Speaker 1: There's if you want to see any of the research

1753
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:03,120
Speaker 1: that we've got, and we'll put up a bunch of

1754
01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:09,000
Speaker 1: this research. There's a lot of it. Yeah, seventeen hours

1755
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:11,720
Speaker 1: later we're done recording, we will put up a bunch

1756
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:13,720
Speaker 1: of the links. Those links are gonna be on our

1757
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 1: website as always. That is going to be Thinking Sideways

1758
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:20,720
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. You can listen to the episodes while

1759
01:42:20,760 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 1: you're on the website. I know a lot of people

1760
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 1: are doing that, and then some people like to download

1761
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:29,040
Speaker 1: them and a lot of people go to iTunes to

1762
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:32,639
Speaker 1: get those. If you're on iTunes, go ahead and take

1763
01:42:32,720 --> 01:42:36,320
Speaker 1: the time to subscribe, leave this comment and rating if

1764
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 1: you get the chance. A lot of folks are leaving

1765
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:42,720
Speaker 1: comments on the website as well, which is fantastic. You

1766
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:47,040
Speaker 1: can always get us on stitchers, so if you don't

1767
01:42:47,080 --> 01:42:48,720
Speaker 1: have the time to go to the you don't not

1768
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:51,040
Speaker 1: able to get the website, and you use stitcher for

1769
01:42:51,120 --> 01:42:54,519
Speaker 1: many mobile device, you can stream the episodes right there.

1770
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:58,680
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook, so you can find us. You can

1771
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:02,799
Speaker 1: like us at the suggestion of a listener. We recently

1772
01:43:02,920 --> 01:43:06,120
Speaker 1: created a Facebook group for our listeners to get together

1773
01:43:06,280 --> 01:43:09,560
Speaker 1: and chat about stories stuff like that, which seems to

1774
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:15,120
Speaker 1: slowly be building a little momentum. So it's starting to

1775
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:17,200
Speaker 1: gain some momentum. It a little slow right now, but

1776
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:21,920
Speaker 1: it's brand that's that's exactly the problem. A lot of

1777
01:43:21,960 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 1: people okay, now, yes, now they know um. And if

1778
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:29,160
Speaker 1: you want to go ahead and tell us your theories,

1779
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:32,240
Speaker 1: you can just write us an email. That email address

1780
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:35,680
Speaker 1: is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. We try

1781
01:43:35,720 --> 01:43:39,920
Speaker 1: to respond pretty pretty quickly. Yeah, we try to stay

1782
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 1: up on topic. Usually it's an intern, but he loves

1783
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 1: the idea of an intern. But now we do try

1784
01:43:46,320 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 1: to get back to everybody as quickly as possible. And

1785
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 1: I know there's a few folks who probably haven't gotten

1786
01:43:51,080 --> 01:43:53,479
Speaker 1: a reply yet. That's I apologize. We've just been a

1787
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:57,599
Speaker 1: little swamped with this story. But we will get to Yeah,

1788
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 1: we all have jobs. Yeah there's that so yeah. But

1789
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:05,320
Speaker 1: that having been said, that is the mystery of the

1790
01:44:05,439 --> 01:44:09,720
Speaker 1: Voyantage Manuscript. It's a lot of information. Thank you everybody

1791
01:44:09,920 --> 01:44:13,760
Speaker 1: for staying with us for the whole time. It's a

1792
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:17,560
Speaker 1: lot I understand, but hopefully you've got some of the

1793
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:20,320
Speaker 1: things that you hadn't heard before, because that's what we're

1794
01:44:20,360 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 1: trying to do, is get you as many as we can. Definitely,

1795
01:44:23,520 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like we should put an

1796
01:44:25,040 --> 01:44:27,280
Speaker 1: East dragon for all the people who made it to

1797
01:44:27,360 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 1: this point. That's a good point. We're awesome, and so

1798
01:44:32,240 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 1: are you. That's a good one. Verified or were all right?

1799
01:44:39,439 --> 01:44:41,880
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Thanks a lot. We'll talk to you

1800
01:44:42,040 --> 01:44:45,360
Speaker 1: next week. And you're special, just so special.