WEBVTT - Landmark Social Media Addiction Trial 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:07.600 This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseo from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:13.039 Mister Zuckerberg, you and the companies before us. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.440 I know you don't mean it to be so, but 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.599 you have blood on your hands. You have a product. 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:23.800 You have a product that's killing people. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.240 That was Republican Senator Lindsay Graham during a Senate Judiciary 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.800 Committee hearing two years ago, a rare example of Democrats 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:38.080 and Republicans coming together to attack social media CEOs like 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:43.720 Mark Zuckerberg for not protecting kids online. Zuckerberg pushed back 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:48.040 on some recent studies that suggested that social media use 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.519 was detrimental to the mental health of teenagers. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.480 Mental health is a complex issue, and the existing body 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.520 of scientific work has not shown a cause a link 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:01.720 between using social media and young people having worse mental 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:02.480 health outcomes. 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.280 Well, now, Zuckerberg will have a chance to make his 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.400 case to a jury in a landmark trial overclaims that 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:14.720 the top social media companies have deliberately gotten teenagers addicted 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.840 through design choices on trial or Meta, the owner of 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:23.440 Instagram and Facebook, and Google, the owner of YouTube Snap 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.000 settled the case last week, and TikTok settled on the 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:31.080 eve of trial. Joining me is Colin Walkee, a cybersecurity 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:35.560 and data privacy partner at hall Estell. Colin. The plaintiff 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.160 in this case is a California woman who is now 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.920 twenty years old. Tell us about our allegations in this lawsuit. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.720 This is really the first one that's going to trial. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.640 There are dozens of not hundreds of similar lawsuits out there. 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:50.680 And the basic allegation in this case, in. 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.160 All the cases, is that the algorithms that have been 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.160 put out there by the social media companies, as well 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.320 as all the bells and whistles they put on their 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:04.040 social media platforms, have made their products addictive. So this 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.360 is very much akin to the tobacco litigation in the 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:11.119 nineteen nineties. Are there harms that flow from that addiction? 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:12.080 One? 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:13.840 Is it addictive? And then two are there harms that 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:15.959 flow from it? The jury is ultimately going to decide 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:16.600 that in this case. 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:21.919 This is a novel theory that compares social media sites 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:23.680 to defective products. 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:26.720 Yes, and in fact some of the claims even relate 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.880 back to like a nuisance type claim. But long story 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.960 short is is that the way these algorithms operate is 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:37.160 they get you addicted through casino style techniques. So casinos know, 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:39.280 for example, that every time that you put a quarter 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.200 in you shouldn't get a reward because then you won't 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:41.680 come back. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.720 So it's the timing with which. 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.799 You see and the content that you see it in 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.640 and then what are the consequences that flow from that, So, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.639 for example, mental health harms as a result of that. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.440 You can think about children in school and the distractions. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.360 That's some of the allegations that have come out in 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:01.720 these cases is you know Instagram started using teenagers and 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:03.680 they were sitting there going, how do we get back 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.640 more teenagers. Well, let's figure out a way to get 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.040 our platforms in schools, right, And so the harms that 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:11.520 flow from this are unique to each individual, but you 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:12.680 can see how they compound. 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.720 So do they have to show or are they they're 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:21.880 alleging that the social media companies deliberately made these design choices, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:23.440 correct that. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.840 It is intentional that they have done this. And the 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:28.160 thing is is I think that there's plenty of testimony 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:32.280 out there that probably supports the goal of making individuals 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:33.360 remain on. 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.280 Platforms as long as possible. 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.520 Keeping their attention there so that they can increase the 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.400 number of viewers and thereby increase the number of advertisements. 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.040 So I don't think there's really anything new about that. 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.240 But the tech companies are coming in and saying, well, whoa, whoa. 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:49.960 We already know based off of the Spring Courts ruling 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:55.200 on Section two thirty that the algorithms themselves are protected speech. 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.720 And so the unique claim in this particular case is, yes, 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.000 that may be speech, but the other bells and whistles 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:04.120 that you're putting onto this and what you're doing within 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.160 it is not speech, and rather it's conduct that it's 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.360 getting us addicted to your platform. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.960 Explain Section two thirty for those who are not familiar 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:13.280 with it. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.080 So Section two thirty is a law that was passed 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:19.520 in the mid nineties at the infancy of the Internet, and. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.839 The goal of Section two thirty was to say, hey. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.960 Listen, all of these people are on America Online posting 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.360 all sorts of things. Maybe some of them are child pornography, 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:30.880 maybe some of them are pictures of elephants. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:32.960 Who knows who cares, But we don't. 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.800 Want to hold aol America Online liable for what someone 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.720 else posts. And so, in today's day and age, with 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.680 regard to Facebook, TikTok, all of those sorts of companies. 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.599 Whatever you post on there, the companies can't be held 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.520 liable for. And that's the result of a now decades 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:53.599 old law that needs to be updated pretty badly. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:56.599 As far as this case has the judge ruled about 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.240 the applicability of Section two. 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.320 Thirty, well, there were attempts to get the case dismissed 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.280 under those claims, and thus far the case is going 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:08.160 to trial, and so ultimately the judge denied those defenses. 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.040 I have no doubt this is the type of case 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:11.520 that will be brought up in front of the United 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.440 States Supreme Court ultimately to make that decision. But I 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.960 will tell you in many of the other copycat lawsuits, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:18.800 it's the exact same sort of thing. They're making the 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.120 argument that Section two thirty affords in this protection and 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:23.520 that's why it's probably gonna go to. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:24.039 The Supreme Court. 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.960 And so the tech companies are arguing they're not legally 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:32.240 responsible for the effect of the content made by users. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.160 So explain what they're out is here what they're trying 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:35.880 to get. 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.920 To, right, So, in short, the fact that you're being 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.080 shown what you want to see is your own choice 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.640 you could choose to see and view different things based 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.240 off of the likes, and you're viewing habits and all 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.680 of that. So they're essentially saying, all we're doing is 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:53.359 giving you what you want. We're not doing anything to 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.160 make it more enticing than it already is. And you know, 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.280 part of the argument too is how much is your 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:05.000 cell phone self addictive versus the platforms themselves? Right, So 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.800 every time you get an iPhone update, for example, it 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.120 becomes a little bit brighter. Why the brighter the screen, 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.520 the more dopamine in the brain. The more dopamine the brain, 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:14.839 the more you want to look on in your screen. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.040 That's why it's hard for you to figure out without 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:18.800 going to Google how to set your screen to black 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:19.200 and white. 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:20.280 They don't want you to know that. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.280 So part of their argument here too is is how 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.400 do you distinguish which component of this is addictive? 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.200 I hadn't realized that I learned something new today about 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.120 the screens. Here, the twenty year old woman says that 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.000 more than a decade of social media you left her 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.640 addicted and depressed. Google's challenged the narrative, saying that she 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.440 experienced difficult family relationships, abuse, and bullying at school and 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:47.480 that played a role in her mental health struggles. I mean, 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.480 how difficult is causation going to be here for her 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.880 to prove that, you know, it was her addiction to 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.919 the platform rather than all the other things happening in 0:06:58.960 --> 0:06:59.480 her life. 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.359 Well, well, it's one of the sayings that we have 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.120 in personal injury cases, which is you find your planiffs 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.880 as they are. And so in this particular case, yes, 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.800 they have some pretty good arguments that the mental health 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.040 harms are a result of her history. But the question 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:18.680 then becomes were they exacerbated by virtue of the negligent conduct? 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.800 And if that's the case, then the approximate cause is 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.000 in fact the social media platform and not the historical 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:27.760 trauma that she experienced. And so that's what I was 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.000 saying earlier about the mental health harms as part of 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.640 the allegations in this case, because it is going to 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:35.920 be an issue for the jury to determine what was 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.720 the ultimate cause, what are those damages, and on top 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:40.200 of that, are punitive damage is something that. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:40.920 Could be afforded. 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.920 There is a debate within the mental health field about 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.840 the connection between social media and increasing teenage rates of depression, 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:54.120 anxiety suicide ideation. But there is a twenty twenty three 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.000 report by the American Psychological Association that found that social 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.400 media used is not inherently benefit official or harmful to 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.760 young people. Is that debate going to enter the courtroom 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:07.239 where we're going to see, you know, experts on both 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:08.360 sides of the issue. 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.240 Absolutely, you will, just like you saw with the tobacco litigation. 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:14.800 I mean, that's the reality is You're going to find 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.320 experts on both sides of this issue. But at the 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:19.280 end of the day, the reason why the jury trial 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:22.200 system is so good here in the United States is 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.520 because our jurors really are good at detecting bs, and 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.480 so they'll be able to figure out pretty quickly not 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.280 just from what the testimony is, but from their own 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:36.280 personal experiences. I don't think that anyone can ultimately hear 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:40.480 the testimony of these executives and former executives and decide 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.360 that they didn't at least try. 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:43.760 To make it more addictive. 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:46.720 Whether they accomplish that goal maybe a different story, but 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.240 it's pretty clear they at least tried. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.719 As you mentioned, there are more than sixteen hundred plaintiffs, 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.520 including there were over three hundred and fifty families and 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.400 two hundred and fifty school districts on the federal and 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.000 state level. Why isn't this being true as a class 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:02.760 action lawsuit. 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.520 Well, because the harms flow differently. 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.080 So for a class action you have to have similarity 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.319 in damages and several other similar class items to make 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.679 you a class. So, for example, if your dishwasher went out, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.960 all the other thousand people who bought that dishwasher, you're 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:16.720 in the similar class. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:17.800 You've got similar damages. 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.479 But in this particular case, the harm of this particular 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.559 female plaintiff right is different than a mother bringing in 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.600 a lawsuit on behalf of her child. And those damages 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.439 are different because you're going to calculate a different lifespan 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.880 based on age alone. And then not only that, but 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:35.960 you look at the school district lawsuits, Well, what are 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.400 the damages there. It's the disruption in the classroom, it's 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.319 the additional counselors that are needed. So each of these 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.600 different damage components makes them difficult even for a litany 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.760 of school districts to come together. You couldn't see that 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.000 across the country because everybody is funded differently, So that's 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:52.720 why you're not seeing it as a class action. 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:54.880 But I'm confident that if. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.640 This case goes to trial and there is a judgment, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:09:59.439 you're going to see a lot more of these cases. 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.920 Sudden explain what a Bellweather trial is and is this 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:04.080 a Bellweather trial? 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.280 This is absolutely a bell Weather trial. So it's very similar. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.040 Recently, for example, you saw Tesla actually went to trial 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.960 and won on one of the cases where they're automatic 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.880 driving vehicle injured somebody, and so that is going to 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.720 embolden Tesla into the future. So if you imagine a 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.880 scenario in which the social media companies do win this case, 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.800 they're going to feel embolden to continue to pursue it. 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:28.960 On the flip side of that coin, if the plaintiffs 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.520 win this case, then at the end of the day, 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.240 you're going to start seeing a lot more settlements. 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:34.640 Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:39.360 this conversation with Colin Walke of hall Estel. Jury's selection 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:43.040 is underway in the case. So what kind of jurors 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:46.280 are the lawyers from each side looking for and how 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.160 much depends on the testimony of a CEO like Mark Zuckerberg. 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.160 I'm June Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.600 Would you'd like now to apologize to the victims who 0:10:57.640 --> 0:10:59.520 have been harmed by your product? Show them the pictures. 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:02.840 Would you like to apologize for what you've done to 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:03.560 these good people? 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:07.800 Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg was lectured by both Republican and 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.200 Democratic senators when he testified at a hearing on the 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:15.800 harm social media platforms posed to young people in January 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.400 of twenty twenty four. Now, Zuckerberg will have to testify 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:23.680 in a courtroom in a landmark social media addiction trial. 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.760 Part of his testimony will most likely echo some of 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.040 what he said before Congress when he elaborated on the 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.720 safeguards Meta has added over the years. 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.600 Over the last eight years, we've built more than thirty 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.760 different tools, resources, and features that parents can set time 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.920 limits for their teens using our apps, see who they're following, 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.160 or if they report someone for bullying. For teens, we've 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:49.640 added nudges to remind them when they've been using Instagram 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:50.920 for a while, or if it's getting late and they 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.160 should go to sleep, as well as ways to hide 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.280 words or people without those people finding out. 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.000 I've been talking to an expert in data privacy Colin Walkee, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:04.000 a partner at Halestel. Colin the fact that Snap settled 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.760 last week and TikTok settled on the eve of trial, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.600 what does that tell you about how the social media 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:14.760 companies are evaluating the risk of going to trial. 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:18.120 I think what most people don't realize is that lawyer's 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:19.360 jobs are to manage risk. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.280 We are risk managers, that is it. And so for the. 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:25.720 Plaintiffs in this case, if they settled, the reason why 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:27.000 is because they know that this is going to be 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:28.560 taken all the way to Supreme Court and that's going 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.199 to take another five years, whereas they can get some. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.120 Money today and avoid that risk, right. 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.400 So there's an incentive for the plaintiffs to settle from 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.000 that regard, and there's an incentive for the defendant to 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.520 settle because they don't want this information to get out 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.840 there in the real world about how much you know 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.480 your privacy is being pilfered for profit. They don't want 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.800 to figure that out. They don't want their dirty laundry aired. 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.480 And so this is why settlements happen, is because both 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.240 sides are incentivized to not continue on with the case 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:55.840 whether they're right or wrong, and. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:01.480 I'm wondering how they evaluate the risks because even if 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.000 they settle this case, there is the next case and 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.040 the next case in the next case, whereas if they 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:10.640 try this case and win, they'll have a better road ahead. 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:12.560 That's absolutely correct. 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.960 And one other thing is is that Meta has plenty 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.520 of money for lobbying, So at the end of the day, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.120 if this does result in some sort of liability to them, 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:22.960 I have no doubt that all of the tech companies 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.120 are going to go to Congress to seek some form 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.520 of a Section two thirty type amendment to further protect 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:30.120 them in the future from this type of litigation. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:35.600 It's most likely that Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Adam Musserri, 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.040 who heads Instagram, are going to take the stand. Zuckerberg 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:43.320 has testified before Congress explain how different it is to 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.880 be in a courtroom and subject across examination and being 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:48.360 in Congress. 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:50.280 Well, it's wildly different. 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.160 Because if you remember back in twenty fourteen, when Mark 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.280 Zuckerberg came and testified in front of Congress, one of 0:13:56.320 --> 0:13:59.400 the congressmen actually thought the reference to a cookie was 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.000 an edible item and not a pixel contained on your 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.360 computer screen. Okay, So the difference is is that these 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.080 attorneys in the courtroom know the technology, they know the facts, 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.679 and they're going to be able to effectively cross examine 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.640 someone about what a cookie is and how they're tracking 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.640 your data from one website to another. And then it 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.600 begs the question, why are you tracking my information from 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.240 my insurance carrier? Oh, well so we can show you 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.280 more ads. Okay, why are you showing more ads? Well, 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.080 so we can get your addicted. So that's how the 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.000 cross examination is going to work that you would have never. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:30.560 Seen in commerce. 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.400 I think that Zuckerberg has a tandency to seem sort 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:37.720 of wooden when he talks. Suppose he comes across that 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.680 way to a jury, I mean, how much depends on 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.200 how they view him. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.360 Well, it goes back to the old saying that you 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.040 know a jury, if they like you, they like your cause. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.600 And so that's a hurdle that the tech companies are 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.880 going to have to overcome at the start of this trial, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.440 because they've had enough black eyes already that the jury's 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:55.640 not going to like them out out. 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.920 The gate, and the plaintiff here will have to take 0:14:57.960 --> 0:14:58.480 the stand. 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.240 Yes, the plan for lap take the stand, and I 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.720 have no doubt that her mental health history will come 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:05.640 up and the trauma that she has suffered, and all 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.160 of that is fodder for cross examination. 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.640 As painful as. 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.720 It may be for someone to go through that process, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.320 it has to occur in order for the jury to 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.840 have a full understanding and appreciation of whether or not 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.880 the trauma in this case was related to addiction from 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:23.320 social media or prior. 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.480 This is a civil trial, not a criminal trial. So 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.760 people may have heard old defendants don't have to testify, etc. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.360 But explain how a civil trial is different. 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.360 Yeah, so there is no right against self incrimination in 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.160 a civil trial. In fact, if you let's assume for 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.960 half a second that Mark Zuckerberg had planned on doing 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.320 something illegal. 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:45.640 In order to make this an addictive product. 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.360 If he asserted his Fifth Amendment right in a civil trial, 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.320 the judge would instruct the jury that they are able 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:58.960 to make an adverse inference as to his response. Otherwise, 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.720 you don't have a Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.120 in a civil trial. Rather, because you're not going to jail. Rather, 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:08.400 you face damage damages as a result. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:08.720 Of your conduct. 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.840 Jerry selection is underway right now. Tell us the kind 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.680 of jurors that the plaintiff's lawyer will be looking for, 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.600 and the kind of jurors that the defendant's lawyer will 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:19.360 be looking for. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:20.280 Yeah. 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.600 So if I'm the planeff's lawyer, I am looking for 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:28.520 individuals who are going to be used to using social 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.280 media and find it problematic for themselves or their family members. 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:32.520 Right. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.520 So we all have the uncle or the dad who 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.200 spends all day long on Twitter and you're rolling your 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:38.800 eyes like. 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:41.480 Sitting there, going do you not have anything else to do? That? 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.480 You want somebody who is frustrated about the system on there. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.840 From the Planetf's perspective and from the defendants perspective, you're 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.360 looking for someone who is willing to say, you know what, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.360 we live in a capitalistic society in which individuals have 0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:00.000 freedom of choice, and these people are choosing to download 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.960 this app and spend time on it. That is a 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.000 choice that they are making. And so you're gonna want 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.720 someone who is very libertarian in their perspectives on life. 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:11.160 What about parents? 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.159 Yeah, and that goes back to it. 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:15.240 I think that if I am on the plant side, 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.000 I want as many parents on there as possible. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.680 Again, you're gonna have some parents who don't care. 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.440 Right, we have created a situation in which the reason 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.320 why our children are addicted is because we're sitting there 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.480 throwing these in their hands at the age of five 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.040 years of age. And so you know, some parents may 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.480 not care, but it's the parents who do care that 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.560 you want on that stand or in that jury box. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:41.040 Do you know besides a testimony, are there internal documents 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:42.719 that are going to be introduced. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.680 Yes, there will be internal documents that will be utilized 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:49.360 that were utilized in depositions. Many of them have been 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.720 redacted for public use at this time. The judge will 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.080 figure out how to handle that with the jury on 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.239 any confidential information. But yes, there will be documentation as 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.159 well that the jury can rely upon a side from 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:01.200 the testimony itself. 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.920 These are state cases, but there are also federal cases 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:08.600 that are going to trial in June. Is that also 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:10.440 bell Weather or yes? 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.080 Yes, And you could also think about it this way, right, 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.239 So we're talking about these bell Weather cases. What if 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.840 the plantiff wins, what if the defendant wins? And earlier 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:19.959 we talked about, well, well, the defendant feel in Bolden 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.240 and they probably will as a social media company, feel 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:24.960 in Bolden. But you have to remember, going back to 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:26.680 the original point of why these aren't. 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:27.560 Class action cases. 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.679 Each case is different and unique, and so in this 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.199 particular case, we have a plaintiff who doesn't have the 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.399 best history, so to speak, Versus if you had a 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.480 five year old child in there who's got mental health 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:39.720 issues from being addicted. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:41.720 They're not going to have the same traumatic history. 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.679 They're only five years old, right, So each case is 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.400 going to turn on the facts uniquely. But I do 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.800 certainly think that this is going to embolden whoever wins. 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:53.400 And also some states are enacting laws to protect against this. 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.439 Well, each state is doing something a little bit different. 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.000 So for example, you know, Oklahoma has passed a law 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.000 that says you're not allowed to have cell phones during 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.600 the school day, and so that keeps cell phones and 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:05.960 social media away from. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.760