1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: For tonight's classic episode, uh speak by the curtain. We're 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 1: about to go on a long weekend, and when we 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: go on a long weekend, collectively we like to end 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: with something philosophical, something abstract, so to chew on. Yeah, oh, indeed, 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: tonight's question, could a thought be alive? What is the 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: nature of sentience? Do you need a physical form to 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: be a living thing? 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: Yes? 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 3: Okay? 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 2: End of episode. 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 3: All right, I'm sure only kidding, Well, I mean, am 12 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 3: I I'm not sure? 13 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: How about you be the judge. How about we let 14 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: you judge. 15 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: Let us know your thoughts, living or otherwise. From UFOs 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with 17 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn the 18 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. 19 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. My name is Noel. 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: Sitting here to my left is Matt the Invisible Matt. 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: He's a mat genary for this episode or a Matt genary. 22 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: Uh yep, and they called me Ben. We're joined with 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: our long suffering super producer Paul Decant. Most importantly, you 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: or you, and that makes this stuff they don't want 25 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: you to know. Noel did you ever have an imaginary 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: friend growing up? Serious question? 27 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I've thought about that and I've ultimately decided 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 4: that I did not, and it made me sad. But 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 4: is it more sad to have one or to not 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 4: have one? 31 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: You tell me, Yeah, it's a question that I think 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: depends on people's perspective. Earlier, before he went on the air, 33 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: we were asking Paul whether he had an imagine friend, 34 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,639 Speaker 1: and he told us that by the time he growing 35 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: up realized what that concept was, maybe he had already 36 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: sort of missed the window and realized that, you know, 37 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: there was a difference between what is real and what 38 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: is imagined. And did you know anybody who said they 39 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: had an imaginary friend? I knew some people when I was, 40 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: you know, my younger days who said that they knew 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: just someone, and sometimes it was uncreative. I grew up 42 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: in preschool there was a kid who had an imaginary friend. 43 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: You know what, His name was, Ethan Ethan. That's just 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: not very you know what happened to like Admiral squackin toops? 45 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, what was the one from inside out? 46 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,119 Speaker 1: Hmm, I don't remember. I think mainly have dropped dead Fred. 47 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: Oh, that was a good no. 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 4: The one from inside out was Bingbom and he's like 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 4: a magical elephants and it is one of the most 50 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 4: heart wrenching sequences in any film, animated or otherwise. And 51 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 4: I was and buy that to my dying breath when 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 4: Bing Bong, something happens to Bing Bong. 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 2: Just put it that way. It has to do with growing. 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: Up, Oh gosh. Yes, And some of this episode touches 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: upon the very same rights of passage. We could call 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: them right today, friends and neighbors, imaginary friends, those non corporeal, 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: non physical associates, confidence, family members love by children across 58 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: the world throughout the ages. More often than not, they're 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: regarded as a phase of sorts. 60 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's true. 61 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 4: So today we're here to work out exactly what it 62 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 4: means when we say imaginary friend, Matt, what do you think? 63 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 4: Matt says that according to developmental psychologist Tracy Gleeson, it 64 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 4: is tough to predict or even measure quantify what a 65 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 4: child will actually say when ask this question, what is 66 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 4: your imaginary friend? We've said, do you have an imaginary companion? 67 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 4: And they respond that sounds awesome, so they go, yes, yes, 68 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 4: of course, I do. That's like me, I wish I did. Sure, 69 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 4: I don't think I did, but you know I would 70 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 4: like to have had that. 71 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: And they begin to improvise. 72 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: Maybe I wasn't creative enough as a child. 73 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: I don't beat yourself up, but it's a great point. 74 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: They will begin to confirm what they want to have. True. 75 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: Guess I do have a friend. His name is Ethan. 76 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: He wears a red jumpsuit, you know. And then it's 77 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: easy once you have that basis to explore and create detail. 78 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: So for psychologists, it's difficult to know whether a child 79 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: is improvising this as we said, or whether they're describing, 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, someone as real as Matt standing here right totally. 81 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: He's nodding, And you make a great point, Matt. Psychologists 82 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: divvy up the broad category of imaginary friends into two groups. 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: They're completely invisible pals and then they're personified objects. And 84 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: this is this is where we see stuff like a 85 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: favorite stuffed animal or the horror trope of the haunted doll. 86 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 4: Well, and sometimes don't those things merge? Couldn't you have 87 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 4: an imaginary friend that embodies said favorite stuffed toy totally? 88 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: Right? Like Ethan used to not have a home, but 89 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: now he lives inside this VHS cassette. 90 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: I had this thing. 91 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 4: It was His name was Teddy Ruxpin and he I 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 4: swear to you, he talked. 93 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm familiar with Teddy Rexbin. Did you ever put a 94 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: like a heavy metal album or some underground hip hop 95 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:32,679 Speaker 1: into his cassette player? 96 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 2: Cassette player? 97 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: All right, well, I guess mine came with a cassette player. 98 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: But I don't want to ruin this for you. 99 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: Teddy was my pal. 100 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: He probably still is, you know, maybe he can maybe 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: he can reach out to him though. 102 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 4: Actually, okay, I'm joking, but didn't you hear that the 103 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 4: new Teddy Rocksbin is like Internet connected and can like 104 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 4: pull phrases and stuff off the web. 105 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: It's almost like an Alexa in toy form. 106 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: Uh. 107 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: That's spooky cool. No, not cool. Stop normalizing constant right. 108 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: According to doctor Cheryl Gonzalez Ziegler, an imaginary friend is 109 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: a made up or unreal companion that typically provides comfort 110 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: or support to a child. When it's an invisible friend, 111 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: they'll say something along the lines of Annie is my pal. 112 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: She goes everywhere with me and you can't see her, 113 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: but I can see her. And then there are also 114 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 1: these imaginary friends that are these personified objects, so to 115 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: Nole's example, like a Teddy ruxpan. And according to doctor Ziegler, 116 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: the relationship there is more of a caretaking thing, like 117 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: I am taking my stuffed animal with me because they 118 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: only like particular things and only I know how to 119 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: make the sandwiches for them or put them to bed. 120 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a way of developing qualities of nurturing. 121 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: Maybe, you know, that's a really good point. Yet, and 122 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: when Ziegler says these can be imaginary friends, it's it's 123 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: exactly the way that you just describe it. And no, 124 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: they're a sign I mean these animate qualities to an object, right, And. 125 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 4: I'm no psychologist, but it occurs to me that you know, 126 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 4: young girls, and I'm you know, my daughter is a 127 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 4: is a young girl maybe focus a little more on 128 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 4: that nurturing lesson and the boys maybe are a little 129 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 4: more l likened, learning how to be more rough and 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: tumble and like you know, fighting and stuff. 131 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: And we have to wonder how much of that is society, 132 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: you know, And I'm sure. 133 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: It's like all society. It's just an observation, totally totally 134 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: off the cuff. 135 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: But because remember, you know, I'd be very interested in 136 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: the history of toys to find who made the decision 137 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: to call to call something an action figure. If it's 138 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: for a boy and a doll, if it's for a girl, 139 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, that's maybe a story for a different show, 140 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: or a little bit of an Edward Breney show. So 141 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: these objects aren't, of course limited to things like dolls 142 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: or stuffed animals. There's an ext bert who says she 143 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: once heard about a child who formed get this, a 144 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: close relationship with a can of tomato paste and see 145 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: in separable bonds a. 146 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: Very appealing looking can. I mean you're talking about the 147 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: smaller ones. 148 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: They still smaller cans. 149 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: That's what I would want to be friends. The regular 150 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: sized ones just seem too aggressive. 151 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: So the smaller ones a little more endearing. 152 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: Yet think to me, yeah, it's cute. 153 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: And although there is some levity in this, it's also 154 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: true that imaginary friends are more common than we might 155 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: wait for it. Imagine, I know it is a rough one. 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 3: Go on. 157 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: Well, Approximately thirty percent of American children between the ages 158 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: of three and six developed some sort of imaginary companion. 159 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: And that's just counting the ones that are invisible friends, 160 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: totally non comporeal entities that aren't tied to you know, 161 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: a rock, spin or a boot. I don't know why 162 00:08:58,840 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: that's the only other example. 163 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 2: I had a boot. Yeah, like it, like the way 164 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: Canadians say about oh no, no, like a shoe. Oh. 165 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: I see. 166 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: Yes. There are other studies too, Noel, and they argue 167 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: that more broad investigation reveals over fifty percent of children 168 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: have had some sort of imaginary friend in their childhood. 169 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: And that's a little that's a little difficult for me 170 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: because you and Paul and Matt and I don't you know, 171 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: we can maybe recall wanting to have an imaginary friend, 172 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: but I unless something traumatic happened and we've blocked it out, 173 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like any of us made the leap, 174 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: So I wonder how they're defining it there. And often 175 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: it's important to note often these imaginary friends are not 176 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: crucial to a child's social sphere. You know, Professor Lizard 177 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: is cool, right, but Professor Lizard isn't around all the time. 178 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: Professor Lizard is cold blooded. 179 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: That's true, literally true. But the child will have other 180 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: real life friends, and you know, in Hollywood, because we 181 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: talked about pop culture and how it applies to stuff 182 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: on this show. Right in Hollywood, imaginary friends are often 183 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: portrayed as a sign of a personality disorder or a 184 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: horror trope, or even mental illness. 185 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, like in a Beautiful Mind? Is that? Can I 186 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: spoil a beautiful mind? 187 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah? Go for it. 188 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 4: He has an imaginary friend that you think is real 189 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 4: and then spoiler alert, turns out it's all in his 190 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 4: beautiful mind. 191 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, I still haven't seen it. 192 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: It's the one about Oh sorry, no. 193 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: Don't apologize. I'll still watch it. 194 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: I love I think we've psted the statute of Limitations. 195 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: It's at least five years old now. 196 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 4: It's about a you know, a brilliant mathematician who struggles 197 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 4: with mental illness and it is personified in this character 198 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 4: who you meet and then find out, you know, with 199 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: the twist that he's not real or like a fight 200 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 4: club kind of situation. Sure, kind of spoil fight club 201 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 4: for everybody. 202 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: I think. I think that's well past the statue. 203 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 4: Just say, the whole multiple personality thing, and it has 204 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 4: become kind of a toxic trope in that it's a 205 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 4: little bit cliched and lazy writing in a lot of ways, 206 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: you know, and in a way without actually exploring someone's 207 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: struggle in a character driven way. It's more in like 208 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 4: this kind of this Shamolonian twist that's sort of been 209 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 4: done to death. 210 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Luke, what I can plot? Right? We we spent 211 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: so long wondering whether we could make a plot twist 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: that we never asked ourselves whether we should. And thankfully, 213 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: in real life this is not the case. Imaginary friends, 214 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: experts find are potentially beneficial to a kid's mental health. 215 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: According to family therapists, imaginary friends are often found amongst 216 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: children who are well adjusted socially, even prone to smiling 217 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 1: and laughing slightly more than their peers, which I know 218 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: could sound kindness sinister, because now we all have the 219 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: picture of you know, little Lisa or little bart just 220 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: sitting by themselves in a classroom and occasionally going. 221 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 4: What's the difference between having an imaginary friend and just 222 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: having an imagination? 223 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: That's true? 224 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: Right? Is it a symptom? There? Because we know that 225 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: this occurs with children most often, right, just like your 226 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: example from inside out. At some point children typically grow 227 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: out of and away from the imaginary child phase and 228 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: around the age of seven, the imaginary friend either goes 229 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: away might stick around a little bit longer. But in 230 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: some cases, these invisible friends or again objects imbued with personality, 231 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: follows someone into adulthood. 232 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Matt, what Yeah, totally. 233 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: And we'll be back after a word from our sponsor. 234 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: So the earlier question, what's the difference between an imaginary 235 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: friend and just having an imagination or. 236 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: Just imbuing your play things with personality? You know, like 237 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: I definitely played with action figures. There we go again, 238 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 4: and then dolls whatever what have you. And you know, 239 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: I would have them talk to each other. I would 240 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 4: pretend to that what I was doing was in some 241 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 4: way and you know, had a real outcome or whatever. 242 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 4: How you know is an imaginary friend specifically one? Can 243 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 4: you have a stable of them? 244 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: Like I don't know? 245 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah? And then, you know, lest we be too 246 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: quick to judge people, we have to ask ourselves who 247 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: among us has imbued some sort of personality into a 248 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: common everyday object. People name their cars, right? 249 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: They used to do it with spoons. 250 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: He used to do it with spoons, No kidding. Could 251 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: you tell me about one? 252 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: It was Ethan? 253 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: It was Ethan. The spoon in its red jumper. Yes, 254 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 1: so we often ask ourselves whether an imaginary friend is 255 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: a form of hallucination, right, But as it turns out, 256 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: this isn't the case. Experts argue instead the perceived beings 257 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: of vivid fantasy and it helps the child address emotional 258 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: concerns or pursue play, practice, sympathy, and most importantly, model 259 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: later social behaviors. And we have a quote about this 260 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: from Ellen Giralda. 261 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 2: That's right. 262 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 4: She is a professor of Child and adolescent psychiatry at 263 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 4: Imperial College London, and she says they do not have 264 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 4: the actual perceptual experience of seeing and hearing. 265 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 2: Another key difference, she says is that quote hallucinations feel 266 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: imposed and children cannot exercise a direct control over them. 267 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: This came from the Guardian. 268 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So in that case, it means that if we 269 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: had an imaginary friend who you know, Professor Lizard, right, 270 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: you could interact with Professor Lizard, but you could also 271 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: escape Professor Lizard if you wanted to shut it off. 272 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: It's like a switch. 273 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 4: And you know, people that suffer from genuine hallucinations there 274 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 4: is no escape, and they require medication to make them 275 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 4: go away, you know, sedation or other psychoactive drugs that 276 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 4: have to be prescribed to deal with these hallucinations can 277 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 4: be symptoms of serious mental illness. 278 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. And the strange thing is here that hallucinations 279 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: do appear to be, let's say, not common, but less 280 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: uncommon than one might think. Recent studies have pointed out 281 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: some surprising statistics about how common hallucinations can be. One 282 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: study in the United Kingdom found that almost two thirds 283 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: of children reported having at least one quote psychotic like 284 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: experience in their lives. And that's a category that also 285 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: includes unshiftable, unrealistic beliefs and fears. You know, I can't 286 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: go into the closet, ever, I can't go under the bed, 287 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: or the blender is evil. I made up that last one, 288 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: but I'm sure it happened to someone. 289 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: So when you focus purely on hallucinations, a review of 290 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 4: the research out there found that seventeen percent of nine 291 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 4: to twelve year olds have these experiences at any given time. 292 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 4: The number roughly gets cut in half with teenagers and 293 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 4: then drops again in adults. 294 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because nine to twelve is maybe a 295 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: little bit older in terms of what we would expect 296 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: to encounter regarding an imaginary friend. So again we see 297 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: that hallucinations are different, and the research on this is 298 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: very tricky. Not quite as tricky as as Shyamalan plot twists, 299 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: but still tricky all the same, since this research tends 300 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: to focus on experiences that are selected because they can 301 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: appear in mental health problems and adults, such as, for instance, 302 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: hearing voices, right, which has been the subject of a 303 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: lot of investigation in the past, right, well. 304 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: Witch hunts even, I mean, like you know, it being 305 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 4: a sign of possession or something like that, you know, 306 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: very outdated notions of some sort of demonic, malevolent force 307 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 4: at work. 308 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: Right, right, or a divine supernatural force such as Joan 309 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: of Arc claiming to hear voices. 310 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, as it ultimately resulted in the same outcome though, 311 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 4: didn't it. It's true, It's true, But it does mean 312 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 4: that she was you know, vilified for having this because 313 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 4: she claimed to know things that only a high priest 314 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 4: should know, like someone very high up in the religious. 315 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,159 Speaker 1: Order, right, especially when this was in a religion that 316 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: required intercession, right, and wherein somebody could not speak directly 317 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: to a god. 318 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 4: Needed a laison in the form of someone who was 319 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: learned and had the proper pedigree. 320 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: It's exact for that communication, which I still just find funny. 321 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: But your point remains there when we say, when we're 322 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: looking at this research, we have to remember that these things, 323 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: it could also be pinged as mental health issues, are 324 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: only a small part of the possible range of hallucinations, 325 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: which means the figures that Noel quoted earlier are likely 326 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: to be a lower conservative estimate. And it's true that 327 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: in rare cases medical problems could be the cause. Epilepsy 328 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: can cause hallucinations. How what's the longest time you've ever 329 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: stayed awake that you remember? 330 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: Oh? 331 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 4: No, I'm a sleeper. I mean, you know, I stayed 332 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 4: up all night once and I was a kid. 333 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 2: I'm kidding. I know, no, no, no, later than you know, 334 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 2: five in the morning, and then I slept most of 335 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: the day. 336 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: Probably I have experimented in the past, pushing myself to 337 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: see how long I can stay awake, and at a 338 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: certain point, yeah, reality gets fuzzy, the edge is blur. 339 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 4: I would like to encounter you in one of these 340 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 4: experimental places. 341 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: I hear. I'm a lot of fun I bet, but 342 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: I don't remember quite a bit of it. Luckily, though, 343 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: severe psychoses or other medical conditions represented perhaps by diagnoses 344 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: such as schizophrenia, Luckily, they're extremely rare in young children. 345 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: People aren't completely sure why this happens, but it's winning 346 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: a brutal and terrible lottery for a young child to 347 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: exhibit those those sorts of conditions. But of course, when 348 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: they occur, they can be striking and terrifying. And this 349 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: leads us to a question for today's episode, or an 350 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: interesting twist, because you see, some people believe friends and 351 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: neighbors that there is more to the story. What if 352 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: imaginary friends and other non corporeal, non physical perceived entities 353 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: are not just make believe models for addressing emotions and 354 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: social behavior. What if they're not hallucinations brought about by 355 00:19:54,680 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 1: stress or some sort of medical condition. What if these 356 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: largely non physical beings are real? 357 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, Ben, You want to get crazy. 358 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Research on the subject is 359 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: surprisingly sparse, but it's safe to say that for many 360 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: children or even adults experiencing this phenomenon, imaginary friends are 361 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: to some degree real, and the people who believe there's 362 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: more to the story will typically argue something along these lines. 363 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: One of the first would be allegations of psychic powers. 364 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: This is one of those very popular tropes in fiction, 365 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: and you might be familiar with it from stories like 366 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: The Shining. You know, let's go ahead and spoil the Shining. 367 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: Remember when the little Torrent's kid has always going red Rock. 368 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 2: That's not really a spoiler, is it. I hope not 369 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 2: everybody knows that. 370 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: Now, you know, somebody might if that's a spoiler for 371 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: The Shining, then they probably don't know what The Shining 372 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: is to begin with. 373 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is his imaginary friend. It's Tony and in 374 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 4: the book comes up in the movie, but he says 375 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 4: he lives inside his mouth, and in the movie he 376 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 4: uses his finger to represent him talking. 377 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: And in the book someone correct me on this. In 378 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: the book, I believe it's implied that the imaginary friend 379 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: is actually Danny Torrance from the future or something talking 380 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 1: to himself. I'm not clear, it's been years since I 381 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: read it, but that's an example of a supposedly imaginary 382 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: friend being a real, independent, separate entity despite the fact 383 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: he lives in his mouth. I'm glad you pointed that out. 384 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: And then, of course there's the excellent, the superb Cindi 385 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: Lauper Jeff Goldbloom vehicle from the late eighty the eighties. 386 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: I want to say, vibes, I do not know vibes 387 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: ben Vibe Vibes. Vibes is a terrible Okay, So, just 388 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: to set the stage, there is this group of people 389 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: with some sort of different specialization as far as psychic 390 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: powers go. Jeff Goldbloom plays one of the main characters 391 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: who has psychometry, which means he touches things and he's 392 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: able to know stuff about them. And yes, before you ask, 393 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: he is just being Jeff Goldbloom, So it's you know. 394 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: That's kind of all Jeff Goldblum ever does. 395 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: Right, right, I just want to say, he's not doing 396 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: a German accent or anything. 397 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: I've yet to see. 398 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 4: Jeff Goldblum play anything outside of just a Jeff Goldblum 399 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 4: type character. But what happens, advice? What are we talking 400 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 4: about here? How does the psychic powers enter into this 401 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 4: imaginary friend phenomenon. 402 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: Cindy Lauper, the romantic interest in the co lead, has 403 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: the ability to no thing she would not normally know, 404 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: stuff from the future, stuff that's happening far away because 405 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: she has an imaginary friend. And in this story, her 406 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: imaginary friend that kind of grew up with or I 407 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: think it happened after an accident, is actually a ghost, right, 408 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: And that's something we see so often in fiction, the 409 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: idea that someone with an imaginary friend is in fact 410 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: mistaking their relationship. They're not speaking with a figment of 411 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: their own youngie archetypes or subconscious They're communicating with another 412 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: worldly form. 413 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 2: Like the little Forrest Gump kid that sees dead people. Yeah, yeah, 414 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna spoil that one. That's where I draw 415 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: the line. 416 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: That's all that film asks. Yeah. You'll also find, interestingly enough, 417 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: outside the realm of fiction, you'll find a wealth of 418 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: anecdotes arguing this point of view. People claiming that their kid, 419 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: from a very young age spoke to a deceased relative, 420 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: or displayed knowledge of some event or skill or language 421 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: was impossible for them to know. So what would some 422 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: examples of these types of anecdotes be. 423 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: You mean in terms of like malevolent forces? 424 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: Sure? Just something you know, creepy, right, for people who 425 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: believe that they or their child has been in contact 426 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: with some sort of entity. 427 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, Actually, we found a list of some encounters, I 428 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 4: guess you could say of this variety. Can't confirm that 429 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: these are real or not, but some of them really 430 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 4: ring true and have a very sinister vibe to them. 431 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 4: And here's one that's titled Evil is Coming. When my 432 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 4: older daughter was two or three, she used to have 433 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 4: a couple of imaginary friends, Dodo and Dedi. They were 434 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 4: typical imaginary friends. She would talk to them and play 435 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 4: with them and tell me about their lives. Then one day, 436 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 4: she was about three, she was talking on her playphone. 437 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,120 Speaker 2: When I walked into the room. 438 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: She quote hung up her phone and said to me, 439 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 4: with a completely flat voice and deadpan expression, the evil 440 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 4: is coming. 441 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: I want to know more. 442 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: That sounds like a setup for a story, doesn't it. 443 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: You know, the thing is that in most cases you 444 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: can't really verify these reports. There what do you call it? 445 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: Creepy pasta? 446 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: A little creepy Pasta's almost yeah, yeah. 447 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: Because there's not there's not a clear attribution. They have 448 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: the tone of campfire stories. In some cases these were 449 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: found to be the ones that were actually investigated were 450 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: found to be mistakes of an entirely understandable sort. You know, 451 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 1: the kid heard something on television and repeated it. 452 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 4: Right, isn't the other thing about creepypasta too? The pasta 453 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 4: comes from the fact that it's paste. It's like cut 454 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 4: and pasted from somewhere, So it implies that it was 455 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 4: like it existed in a real form, or like it 456 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 4: was from a blog or some like actual encounter, but 457 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 4: you can't really. 458 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: Tell, right. Yeah, it's like many urban legends. It's always 459 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: a friend of a friend I met passed through a 460 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: town where there's a story that's real about a killer. 461 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: And sometimes those stories do turn out to have a 462 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: grain of truth that sort of made a pearl of 463 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: wisdom in the oyster of leg and boy walked a 464 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: long way for that comparison, But in many other cases 465 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: they're also found just to be hoaxes, trolling attempts, maybe 466 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: just an endeavor to disguise fiction is fact for an 467 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: added scare factor. But this leads us to another strange 468 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: twist in the story, and we'll get to it after 469 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor. There's another aspect here that developed, 470 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: or we should say, encountered, a renaissance of sorts in 471 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: the digital age, and that's the idea that some imaginary 472 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: friends might be what's called a tulpa. 473 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, I only just discovered that recently in watching the 474 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 4: new Twin Peaks, the return. It comes up a lot, 475 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 4: and it's really almost impossible to spoil the New Twin Peaks. 476 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 4: There's one spoiler I could give for the original Twin Peaks, 477 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 4: which I will not to. 478 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: But the new one is. 479 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 4: So dreamy and strange, and there are like, you know, 480 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 4: created entities that are kind of referred to as tulpa, 481 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 4: but they never actually call them that in the show, 482 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 4: but in people writing about it and Lynch talking about it, 483 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 4: that's what they are. 484 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: They're sort of these. 485 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 4: Like almost facsimiles of people that take their place in 486 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 4: reality and then but they're not actually them, and they're 487 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 4: in some way malevolent and meant to do harm at 488 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 4: least in the world of Twin Peaks. But that is 489 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 4: the first time I ever encountered that term. But what, 490 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 4: let's talk more about what it means in traditionally for sure. 491 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, the the term tulpa comes from a later Western 492 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: adaptation of a much older concept of the mind made 493 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: body or emanation body, also known as the tulku, the sproulpa, 494 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: or the nyumta, and others, and these are found in 495 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: Indian and Tibetan Buddhism. Theosophist the Westerners who adapted and 496 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: someone say, appropriated this idea. We're calling these things thought 497 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: forms as early as nineteen twenty seven. And the essential 498 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: gist is this that if you meditate, if you concretely 499 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: visualize an entity, if you spend enough mental energy imagining 500 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: and picturing this thing, then it can become real and 501 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: acquire an increasing degree of sentience and agency. There's a 502 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: Belgian French explorer named Alexandra David Neil who said that 503 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: once the tulpa is endowed with enough vitality to be 504 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: capable of playing the part of a real being, it 505 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: tends to free itself from its maker's control. And this, 506 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: say Tibetan occultist, happens nearly mechanically, just as a child 507 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: when their body is completed and able to live apart 508 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: from the mother, leaves the womb. 509 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 4: Well, then I completely lost over the fact that you 510 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 4: too have seen twin Peaks the Return. What did you 511 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 4: think about the way this concept plays into it? This 512 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 4: idea of a manufactured, I don't know, facsimile of a 513 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 4: person that exists in some other form. 514 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: My favorite part about the newest Twin Peaks series was 515 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: reading the reviewers increasingly surreal attempts to explain to themselves 516 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: what was going on. And you have to because there 517 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: are times where there's gorgeous cinematography. There's an obvious mythology 518 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: and cosmology at play here, but it has the logic 519 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: of a dream, you know, like why are these why 520 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: are these fast similes? And I appreciate that word these 521 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: doppelgangers for lack of a better term. Why are these 522 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: inherently malevolent? Right? Why are they here just a mess? 523 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: Stuff up? Do they want to supplant the actual people? Right? 524 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: That's a common theme we see, But I do want 525 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: a point. One of the things I found the most 526 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: interesting is that Noll, You're correct, they don't. I don't 527 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: believe in the story anybody actually calls anyone else at Tulpa. 528 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: No, they don't. 529 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 4: But like I said, in reading about it and even 530 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 4: in hearing, I think Lynch himself used that word, but 531 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 4: especially referencing the character of Diane, who in. 532 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: The first season. 533 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 4: The first two seasons of Twin Peaks you only ever 534 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 4: experienced in the form of Agent Dale Cooper talking to 535 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 4: his tape recorder, and in the return we get to 536 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 4: meet Diane, who is played beautifully by Laura Dern. But 537 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 4: and this is a little bit of spoilers for Twin 538 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 4: Peaks return. So I'm gonna give you three. 539 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: Five four three two one five seconds. Is that cool? 540 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: Five years five seconds is a warning? Sure, The character 541 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: that you actually meet is a Tulpa is a facsimile 542 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: of the real Diane. 543 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 4: And you again, some of it's pretty hard to wrap 544 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 4: your head around. You she does, she kind of disappears 545 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 4: and then like there's a there's a version of reality 546 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 4: where Dale Cooper is with the real Diane and then 547 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: they end up going back in time or something and 548 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 4: they have they end up having a tryst in a 549 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 4: hotel room, but then they walk out and there in 550 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 4: another version of reality and that's but that's the real Diane. 551 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 4: I think the tulpa Diane when she whips out that 552 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 4: gun and then she ultimately kind of turns into. 553 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 2: Smoke and a little gold ball. Yeah, it is a 554 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: springing a bell. 555 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is it's a very it's very strange, a 556 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: strange interaction, especially when you consider the symbolism of it 557 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: and the idea still remains the same that a tulpa 558 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: can be generated by concentrated thought. Right, So, for Alexandra 559 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: david Neil, this explorer believed that she had created a 560 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: tulpa in get this though in the image of a 561 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: friar tuck like monk, which later developed a life all 562 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: its own, and despite it's raucous, raucous Dionysian nature, it 563 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: had to be destroyed. And in her defense, Alexander david 564 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: Neil does say that this may have all been a hallucination. 565 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: Yet she adds other people saw this friar tuck tulpa too. Strange. No, 566 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: perhaps it's just a branch of spirituality that will be 567 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: relegated to history along with other, you know, somewhat pseudomistical 568 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: movements of the time. Sure, but if we fast forward 569 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: to the modern day, we'll see that the concept of 570 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: tulpa's is mentioned in as we said earlier, twin Peaks. 571 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: It's also mentioned in The x Men and the comic 572 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: The x Men. It's mentioned in the novel It, and 573 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: perhaps most intriguingly, it's mentioned in forums on the Internet, 574 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: where people argue that they have either come into contact 575 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: with the tulpa or created their own and they are serious. 576 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: They are not trolling, they are not joking. In two 577 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, the subject appeared on the discussion boards 578 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: of four Chan. A couple of anonymous members started to 579 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: experiment with creating tulpa's that's right. 580 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 4: And then in twenty twelve, things took a turn when 581 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 4: adult fans of My Little Pony Friendship is magic. I 582 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 4: count myself among them, not in the same way my 583 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 4: kid really. 584 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 2: Likes the show. 585 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 4: So you're talking about Bernie's Broni's yeah. I'm not a 586 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,479 Speaker 4: legit Bronie though, But these Bronis created a new forum 587 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 4: on Reddit and crafted tulpa is based on their favorite 588 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 4: characters from the show. Ben I need some more information here, 589 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 4: How do you craft a tulpa on Reddit? 590 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: Well, on Reddit, this would just be where they talk 591 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: about it, right, But from what we understand, at least 592 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: in the Buddhist tradition, there are meditative techniques that are 593 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: actually complex and demand and quite a bit of time. 594 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: So we you know, we can't assume that those same 595 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: spiritual techniques are being applied to this amalgamation of pop culture, right, 596 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: and the idea of a created thing. But we do 597 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: know that These tulpas are typically described in great detail, 598 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: and there appear to be relatively few commonalities. Right, So, 599 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: for someone who believes in non physical sentient entities, it's 600 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: not like in The Exorcist, where the eponymous exorcist actually says, 601 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: don't believe anything. It's not a different demon, it's not 602 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: all these voices. There's only one thing pretending to be 603 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: many many other things. Two people who believe this. These 604 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: are individuated, discrete entities, And at this point there's no 605 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: proof that such an entity could exist, something built entirely 606 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: energy or thought. And yes, yes, we know all matter 607 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: is essentially just energy. But then the question is are 608 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: these adults maybe only hearing themselves and translating it differently 609 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: like in the bicameral minds? 610 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 2: Sure that idea. 611 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: What about reports of d MT machine elves? And that's 612 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: the idea that when people ingest certain hallucinogens they end 613 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: up encountering these entities. I've heard them called machine elves. 614 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: And like you know drug literature circles, Yes, circles, people 615 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,360 Speaker 1: on aeroid nailed it? 616 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, No, I don't know about that. 617 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 4: But what are these are They like manifestations of thought 618 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 4: that are given form. 619 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: Or are they right? Are they your own thoughts looking 620 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: back at you? Or are you somehow in tune with 621 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: an entity or entity that you can not usually see. 622 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: And this opens the door to a wealth of speculation, 623 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: also several layers of skepticism, I'm sure from many people listening. 624 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 1: But for people who believe that these non corporeal entities 625 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: can't exist, what they typically present as proof is the 626 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: idea that these hallucinations all share certain common traits, regardless 627 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: of who takes a certain drug when. So for people 628 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: who believe it's DMT, they might say that every DMT 629 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: trip has the potential to obey the same plot points almost, 630 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But you have to wonder is there 631 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,320 Speaker 1: a confirmation bias there? And it leads us to another 632 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: bigger question. Is it possible for a meme, an emotion, 633 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: or an idea to become sentient? That's a I think 634 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: that's spooky because I have a lot of ideas. I 635 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: don't know if I want them coming back. 636 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, isn't that just, you know, singularity, a 637 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 4: different form of singularity kind of, I don't know. 638 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, And this is a question that we 639 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: want to hear your opinion about To conclude today's episode, 640 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: we do have to say whatever we address issues of 641 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: mental health or mental wellness, want you to know that 642 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: if you have concerns or worries, there are people waiting 643 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: to help you or address those concerns, answer questions. You're 644 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: not alone. You can call the SAMSA Treatment Referral helpline 645 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: at one eight seven seven seven two six four seven 646 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,399 Speaker 1: two seven. You can also visit mentalhealth dot gov for 647 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: immediate assistance. 648 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 4: And if you want more information on we talked about 649 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 4: the top of the show. In terms of imaginary friends 650 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 4: and their effects on children and their development, there is 651 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 4: a group of researchers at the University of Oregon collectively 652 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 4: working at a place called the Imagination Research Lab, and. 653 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 2: They pretty exclusively study that very thing. 654 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,720 Speaker 4: From their website, it says they look into the development 655 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 4: of imagination and children and it's a relation to social understanding, creativity, 656 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 4: inhibitory control, and narrative skills, but specifically children's creation of 657 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 4: imaginary companions and the role they play in social and 658 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 4: cognitive development. You can find links to their work at 659 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 4: their site Imaginarycompanions dot or again dot edu. 660 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 1: Slash Lab it's fantastic and it's important work. Because again, 661 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: current research is relatively sparse. It's difficult to understand the 662 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: answers that young children would give in interviews. However, right now, 663 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: psychologists who don't believe that these are separate entities of 664 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: any sort do believe that there's a cover up or 665 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: conspiracy of sorts, and it's an inner conspiracy or an 666 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: internal cover up. They believe that imaginary friends seem to 667 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: function at times as an emotional stand in, a sort 668 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: of mannequin personality upon which a child could place an 669 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: otherwise uncomfortable or difficult emotion. And this is a little 670 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: bit cheeky. Several psychologists also argue that children might foist 671 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: agency for bad behavior upon this other entity. I didn't 672 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: decide to eat all the cookies, doctor pants, smack bubble 673 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: meant told me to do it. And then while you know, honey, 674 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: doctor pants back bubble mint is not real the way 675 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 1: that you are. No, you don't understand, mom, she made 676 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: me do it. So you know, it's not my fault 677 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: that this bad thing happened. I still do that to 678 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: this day, right right, So, oddly enough, if there is 679 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: a conspiracy, it may be simply children juveniles using the 680 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: concept of an imaginary entity to cover up or remove 681 00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: themselves from their own fears, emotions, consequences of action. And again, 682 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: the fortunate bottom line here is that for the vast 683 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 1: majority of cases, it doesn't seem harmful to children at all. 684 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: And we have to ask if we apply this same 685 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: reasoning to adults, Well, if it's not harmful, is there 686 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,359 Speaker 1: a reason to ask people to stop? I mean, if 687 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: it's making them happy, it's not hurting them or someone else, 688 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: should they be allowed their imaginary companions? Yeah? 689 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 4: I mean if they're not the flavor of imaginary companion 690 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 4: that allows them to write off any responsibility for their actions, 691 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 4: then I. 692 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 2: Say aokay, what do you think? Listeners? Write us. 693 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,760 Speaker 4: You can find us on social media at Conspiracy Stuff 694 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 4: Show on Instagram or just conspiracy Stuff on Facebook and Twitter. 695 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:46,479 Speaker 2: And if you don't want to do any. 696 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 3: Of that, and that's the end of this classic episode. 697 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 3: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, 698 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 3: you can get into contact with us in a number 699 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 3: of different ways. One of the best is to give 700 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 3: us a call. Our number is one eight three three 701 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 3: e st DWYTK. If you don't want to do that, 702 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 3: you can send us a good old fashioned email. 703 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,399 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 704 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 3: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 705 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 706 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.