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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: This is Master's in Business with Barry rid Hoolts on

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week on the podcast My Conversation with David Rubinstein.

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Speaker 1: He is co founder and co chair of private equity

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Speaker 1: giant The Carlisle Group. They manage nearly half a trillion

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Speaker 1: dollars in client assets. He is the host of Peer

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Speaker 1: to Peer Conversations on Bloomberg TV, as well as PBS's

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Speaker 1: History with David Rubinstein. He hosts the podcast for the Ages.

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Speaker 1: He has written numerous best selling books, so many it's

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Speaker 1: hard to even keep up with them. The American Story,

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Speaker 1: Interviews with Master Historians, How to Lead, the American Experiment,

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Speaker 1: How to invest Interviews with masters on the Craft, The

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Speaker 1: American Experiment, Dialogues on a Dream, and Now the Highest Calling.

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Speaker 1: Conversations on the American Presidency. What can you say? A

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Speaker 1: guy who grows up in a lower middle class family,

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Speaker 1: gets through college and law school on scholarships and goes

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Speaker 1: on to found one of the most successful buy out,

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Speaker 1: private equity and venture firms in history. Just an incredible

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Speaker 1: success story and someone who is just rich with gratitude

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Speaker 1: for where he is. Incredibly generous philanthropist across a variety

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Speaker 1: of different areas, including what he calls patriotic philanthropy, which

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Speaker 1: is helping to maintain and fix up some of the

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Speaker 1: great monuments in American history that no one really has

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Speaker 1: specific ownership. Everybody just assumes the federal government has taken

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Speaker 1: care of it, and that turns out not to always

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Speaker 1: be the case. He is also the owner of the

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Speaker 1: Baltimore Orioles. Just to fascin in conversation with someone who

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Speaker 1: has just an amazing career, I found this to be

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Speaker 1: really really interesting, and I think you will also, with

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Speaker 1: no further ado, the Carlisle Groups David Rubinstein. Normally I

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Speaker 1: would say welcome to Bloomberg here, David, but you're here

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Speaker 1: all the time, so welcome to this little corner of

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Speaker 1: the fifth floor of Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much for inviting me, and it's a

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Speaker 2: pleasure to talk to somebody who's also a lawyer, who's

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Speaker 2: also in the business world and also reads a lot.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get to your reading history, which is

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Speaker 1: quite fascinating and I've been waiting for this conversation for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Your prior book on leadership with CEOs

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Speaker 1: was when we were first supposed to meet, but then

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Speaker 1: that whole little pandemic thing happened and closed the world down,

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Speaker 1: and so we had to postpone until now. But I'm

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Speaker 1: thrilled to have you. Since you mentioned lawyers, let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your educational background. Duke Undergraduate, Chicago

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Speaker 1: Law School. What was the original plan?

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Speaker 2: My career plan was to go into the federal government,

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Speaker 2: be trained as a lawyer, so I could go back

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Speaker 2: and make money. Eventually, when I wasn't in government, I

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Speaker 2: was interested in being an advisor to a president. As

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Speaker 2: a young boy, I was impressed with President Kennedy, and

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Speaker 2: so I wanted to do what he said, come in

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Speaker 2: and serve the government. And so eventually I thought if

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Speaker 2: I went to law school, I'd have the skill set

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Speaker 2: to maybe be hired in a government and maybe get

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Speaker 2: a job in the White House. And my role model

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Speaker 2: was a man to whom I've dedicated this book. It

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Speaker 2: was named Ted Sorenson.

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Speaker 1: Oh Sure.

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Speaker 2: Ted Sorenson was the person who helped to write John

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Speaker 2: Kennedy's great Inaugural Address, helped to write Profiles and Courage.

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Speaker 2: He was an incredibly brilliant young man at thirty thirty

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Speaker 2: one when he worked for President Kennedy. He was in

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Speaker 2: his forties when I joined the law firm after law

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Speaker 2: school that he was at Paul Weiscriftkin, Wharton and Garrison,

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Speaker 2: and I hoped that some of his pixie thus would

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Speaker 2: kind of fall out my way, and eventually I sort

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Speaker 2: of did find that situation where I got a job

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Speaker 2: working in the car campaign and worked in the car

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Speaker 2: to White House.

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated as a recovering attorney as people who have

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Speaker 1: done these successful career transitions. What led you in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty seven to say, Hey, you know there are some

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Speaker 1: opportunities in private equity. Let's explore that well.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty seven, the phrase private equity had not

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Speaker 2: yet even been invented. It was then called buyouts. I

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Speaker 2: was thrown out of the White House when we lost

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Speaker 2: to Ronald Reagan, so I had to go find another job.

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Speaker 2: The only job I knew how to do was practice law.

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Speaker 2: I'd practiced a couple of years in New York. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't really good at it. I didn't have a lot

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Speaker 2: of experience at it, and I didn't enjoy it. And

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Speaker 2: if you don't enjoy what you're doing, you're never going

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Speaker 2: to be great at it. Nobody's ever won a Nobel

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Speaker 2: Prize hating what they do. And so I realized that

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Speaker 2: my clients weren't really dying to see me continue practicing law.

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Speaker 2: My law partners didn't think I was going to be

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Speaker 2: Benjamin Cardoza or Louis Brandei's. So I decided to start

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Speaker 2: the first buyout firm in Washington with no experience, no money,

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Speaker 2: and no credibility. Ultimately, I got lucky and it turned

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Speaker 2: out to be a very large firm.

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Speaker 1: So there's this little bit of an urban myth that

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Speaker 1: at age thirty seven you read a book on entrepreneurship

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Speaker 1: that states, hey, once you're older than thirty seven, the

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Speaker 1: odds is starting a new firm drop precipitously. Is there

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Speaker 1: truth to that?

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Speaker 2: Sometimes urban myths are accurate. In that case, I read

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Speaker 2: a book that said that if you are going to

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Speaker 2: be an entrepreneur, you typically start your entrepreneurial venture between

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Speaker 2: the ages of twenty eight and thirty seven, and if

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Speaker 2: you're thirty seven you haven't done it. The chance of

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Speaker 2: doing so is very, very small. And I read that

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Speaker 2: when I was thirty seven, and I thought Okay, if

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go out of the practice law, I

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Speaker 2: better do it now before I have more family obligations

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Speaker 2: or other kinds of personal obligations.

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Speaker 1: So you've been in DC for the previous couple of

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Speaker 1: years working in the Carter administration. How did you figure

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Speaker 1: out how to piece together? Hey, I know a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in this town and a lot of buyouts

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Speaker 1: are tied to what's going on with the government. What

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Speaker 1: was the aha moment there?

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Speaker 2: Well, whenever you're trying to start business, you try to say,

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Speaker 2: here is my special area of expertise, or here's what

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Speaker 2: I can do that maybe nobody else has done. And

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Speaker 2: so my idea was to say, we understand companies heavily

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Speaker 2: affected by the federal government, maybe better than the guys

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Speaker 2: in New York. Those would be companies like aerospace, defens telecommunications, healthcare,

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Speaker 2: all of which are heavily regulated by the federal government.

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Speaker 2: So I thought that that would be something that would

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Speaker 2: enable me to get some people to give me some

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Speaker 2: money to invest. And we did raise money deal by

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Speaker 2: deal initially, then later a fund, and I recruited people

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Speaker 2: who actually knew more than I did for sure about investing.

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Speaker 2: So that was a big plus.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad you brought up recruiting for two reasons. First,

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Speaker 1: a lot of CEOs say it's the hardest part of

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Speaker 1: their job is attracting high quality talent. But you managed

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Speaker 1: to recruit some very talented investors with outstanding track records

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Speaker 1: early on. Was it tell us what enabled you to

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Speaker 1: do that? Was it the novelty of what you were doing?

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Speaker 1: Was it just something different? How did you bring in

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Speaker 1: the top notch talent that you did well?

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Speaker 2: Initially I was hiring people that had investment experience who

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Speaker 2: were living in Washington, because it was easier to get

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Speaker 2: people to stay in Washington that moved to New York,

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Speaker 2: and so I did get people who had been CFOs

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Speaker 2: or treasurers or the equivalent at companies base in the

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Speaker 2: Washington area. Later, I went out and recruited big names

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Speaker 2: who had been in government, people like former Secretary of

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Speaker 2: State Jim Baker, former Secretary to Fans Frank Carlucci. And

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Speaker 2: that gave us a certain allure because people are wondering

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Speaker 2: what are they doing in an investment firm. But in

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Speaker 2: the end it worked out quite well.

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Speaker 1: Early on, you focus on quote returns rather than fees,

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Speaker 1: which really helped not only contribute to the firm's success,

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Speaker 1: but its image of trying to take care of clients

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the philosophy there.

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Speaker 2: Most private equity firms of any consequence were built in

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Speaker 2: New York by people who had been investment bankers. And

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Speaker 2: while investment banking is a great profession, you tend to

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Speaker 2: reconnize when you're in investment banking that you need to

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Speaker 2: make sure you click the fee. We didn't really have

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Speaker 2: that kind of background. None of our people had been

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Speaker 2: in investment banking. So we were investing our own money

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Speaker 2: alongside our investors, and we were not, let's say, very

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Speaker 2: fee obsessed, and so we didn't focus on the fees

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Speaker 2: so much as we focused on the returns. And that

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Speaker 2: was a plus because our returns turned out to be

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Speaker 2: pretty good.

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Speaker 1: So you're coming up on half a trillion dollars, which

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Speaker 1: is not an insubstantial amount of money when you look

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Speaker 1: back from eighty seven until today. Any particular milestones or

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Speaker 1: markers that stand out on the path. What's the secret

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Speaker 1: of Carlisle's success.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've made many mistakes, and I could have a

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Speaker 2: show about twenty four hours long about all the mistakes

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Speaker 2: that I've made. But what enabled us to move forward,

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Speaker 2: aside from a very good track record, was the business

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Speaker 2: concept that at the time people made fun of, but

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Speaker 2: in the end worked out. And the idea was this,

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Speaker 2: Historically private equity firms or venture capital firms only did

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Speaker 2: one thing. They did private equity, or they did venture

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Speaker 2: capital or the great growth capital, whatever it might be.

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Speaker 2: I decided I would do many different things in the

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Speaker 2: under the Carlisle rubric. So we'd have a buyout fund.

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Speaker 2: If we did well in it, I'd say to people,

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Speaker 2: we'll give us a chance to do something in venture capital.

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Speaker 2: If you liked us on buyout, maybe you'll like us

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Speaker 2: in venture capital and so forth. And then I decided,

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Speaker 2: once we had multiple funds that we would globalize it.

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Speaker 2: So I spent a long time going to Europe, Asia, Africa,

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Speaker 2: Latin America, Japan, Middle East, setting up funds all over

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Speaker 2: the world. So we became a multi discipline firm and

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Speaker 2: also a global firm. So that was relatively novel at

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: You said there was a decent amount of pushback to that.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of surprised how often I hear that. When

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Speaker 1: Vanguard launched, there was pushback to then there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of skepticism about Black Rock when they went to

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Speaker 1: do what they did over and over some of the

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Speaker 1: most successful companies in the world. People looked as scance

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Speaker 1: at it early on. What does it do to your

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Speaker 1: psyche when you're found and running a firm when the

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Speaker 1: traditional form of finance gives you kind of a hard time.

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Speaker 2: If anything is easy, it probably is not worth doing.

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Speaker 2: Anything that's very hard is probably going to be hard

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Speaker 2: because many people say it can't be done. But the

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Speaker 2: best ideas in time and best companies start from people

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Speaker 2: who say, I'm going to try something that hadn't been

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Speaker 2: done before. Who thought that you could sell books over

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Speaker 2: the internet? Jeff Bezos did. Who thought you could have

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Speaker 2: something like Facebook? Well, Mark Zuckerberg did. Who thought software

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Speaker 2: would be so important?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: Bill Gates did. But people didn't give them money in times,

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Speaker 2: and many people thought that they weren't going to be successful.

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Speaker 2: So anybody that's built the company really has people saying

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Speaker 2: that it's not going to be possible. For example, the

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Speaker 2: company that we're now talking about Bloomberg. Mike Bloomberg, when

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Speaker 2: he left Salomon Brothers, he was starting a technology company

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Speaker 2: people didn't think of would ever get anywhere, and obviously

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Speaker 2: now become the biggest in the world at what it does.

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Speaker 1: So I guess it's consistent because there are different points

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Speaker 1: in your career. Early on and the standard forms of

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Speaker 1: conventional wisdom look askance at what Carlisle does. Later on

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Speaker 1: in your career, you start this side project of publishing

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Speaker 1: a series of books based on interviews with various leaders.

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Speaker 1: You speak to historians, you speak to people, focus on

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Speaker 1: business leaders, on other sorts of leaders. I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: intrigued by how you went from Hey, you know, the

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Speaker 1: conventional wisdom says what we're doing is wrong. To let

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Speaker 1: me find the most interesting visionaries, builders, commanders and decision

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Speaker 1: makers and see what wisdom I could pull out from

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Speaker 1: the people who have been really successful. Tell us how

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Speaker 1: years of top Carlisle led you to this really fascinating

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Speaker 1: series of books. We'll get into the new book and

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but I'm intrigued by the arc of

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Speaker 1: publishing that you've created.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I was a little boy, people would come

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Speaker 2: over our house for dinner and I would ask them

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Speaker 2: lots of questions. My mother said, don't be such a yenta.

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Speaker 2: The yenta being a Yiddish word for asking other people

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Speaker 2: they're about their business in effect, and so I was

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Speaker 2: always inquisitive and intellectually curious. And what happened was I

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Speaker 2: became the head of the Economic Club of Washington, where

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Speaker 2: I was supposed to get people to come in and

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Speaker 2: give speeches. And the speeches that were being given by

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Speaker 2: business people were boring and I could see members were

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Speaker 2: watching at their watches when they could get out of there.

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Speaker 2: So I decided I would try interviewing them, maybe make

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Speaker 2: it a little bit more interesting. And it turned out

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Speaker 2: that people liked the interviews. I use some humor. I

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Speaker 2: had really spent a lot of time researching the people

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Speaker 2: I was interviewing, and eventually Bloomberg saw it, and Bloomberg said,

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Speaker 2: let's make a TV show out of it, and so

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Speaker 2: I began doing some interviews that way. I also started

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Speaker 2: a program at the Library of Congress where I interviewed

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Speaker 2: great historians in front of only members of Congress once

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Speaker 2: a month, doing it for ten years.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's fascinating.

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Speaker 2: And the theory was, let's get members of Congress to

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Speaker 2: come and sit with each other from different parties in

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Speaker 2: different houses, which they rarely get a chance to do

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Speaker 2: no press, nobody can see them talking to somebody who's

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Speaker 2: a different member of a different party. And that's been

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Speaker 2: going over ten years, and I took some of the

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Speaker 2: interviews from that, some of the Bloomberg interviews I've done.

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Speaker 2: I've also had a program at the New York Historical

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Speaker 2: Society to interview great historians there and taken these interviews

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Speaker 2: and altering put some books together from them. This particular

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Speaker 2: book is one that is a compilation of interviews I've

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Speaker 2: done about presidents, asking great presidential scholars about particular people

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Speaker 2: they've written about. And I also had some interviews presidents

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Speaker 2: themselves in the book.

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Speaker 1: So let's go back to what you did with members

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Speaker 1: of Congress interviewing historians. You know, we live in a

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Speaker 1: kind of cynical era. What was the impact of getting

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Speaker 1: people from both parties to sit and listen to a

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Speaker 1: scholar who could give them deep historical perspectives on various topics.

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Speaker 1: How was it received? Did it move the needle in

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Speaker 1: terms of comedy or any form of allowing people to

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Speaker 1: work together.

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Speaker 2: As you know today there are very few people you

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Speaker 2: can criticize without being criticized yourself. You can criticize lawyers,

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Speaker 2: and you can make jokes about lawyers and you get

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Speaker 2: away with it. You can make jokes about members of

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Speaker 2: Congress and always get away with it because members of

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Speaker 2: Congress aren't as highly respected as maybe they should be.

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Speaker 2: So members of Congress actually are pretty hard working. They're

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Speaker 2: very poorly paid, and they have incredible a workload. But

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Speaker 2: occasionally they like to come together and actually talk with

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Speaker 2: each other in ways that they don't get criticized for

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Speaker 2: talking to someone from the opposite party. So I thought,

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Speaker 2: if I had a dinner at a neutral site, the

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Speaker 2: Library of Congress, and members of Congress can come there

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Speaker 2: through underground tunnel so they don't have to go drive

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Speaker 2: to it, and I would have a nice dinner and

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Speaker 2: a really good speaker or interviewee. So Darris Kern's goodwinner,

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Speaker 2: the late David McCullough, people like that. Most recently I

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Speaker 2: had Ken Burns. People want to hear from them, and

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Speaker 2: so I'll do an interview. Then members of Congress will

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Speaker 2: ask questions, and they'll do an effect and interview as well.

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Speaker 2: And then what I found is that members of Congress

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Speaker 2: don't really talk to people from the opposite party very

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Speaker 2: much anymore because of the ethos in Washington. Also, they

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Speaker 2: don't know people from the opposite house. It used to

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Speaker 2: be conference committees to work out difference between the House

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Speaker 2: and Senate, but there's not much legislation anymore, so there's

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Speaker 2: not a lot of conference committe And there used to

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Speaker 2: be Codell's which is members of Congress going overseas, and

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Speaker 2: that got heavily criticized. That doesn't happen very much. So

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Speaker 2: I've been surprised at how many members of Congress don't

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Speaker 2: know people from the opposite party of the opposite house.

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Speaker 2: This gives them a chance to come together in a

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Speaker 2: setting that no press person can see. There's nothing secretive

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Speaker 2: about it in the sense that it is doing anything wrong,

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Speaker 2: but there's no press there. They don't have to worry

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Speaker 2: about somebody saying you were talking to somebody from the

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Speaker 2: opposite party, why were you doing that? And so members

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Speaker 2: like it. It's been going on for ten years now.

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Speaker 2: We get people who are leaders coming from the both

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Speaker 2: houses and rank and file members.

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Speaker 1: So I'm hearing that whoever the particular historian is to

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Speaker 1: borrow a phrase from Alfred Hitchcock and the mcguffin, what

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Speaker 1: really The goal is is to get a little mixing

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Speaker 1: going on between Congressmen and senators, Republicans and Democrats.

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Speaker 2: The theory is that if you get people talking to

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Speaker 2: each other and they're not yelling at each other all

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Speaker 2: the time, it better for the country. And so I

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Speaker 2: don't want to make it sound like I'm solving all

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Speaker 2: the country's problems. I'm obviously not, but I do think

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Speaker 2: it has some benefit in getting some members of Congress

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Speaker 2: to understand the other side better. And members of Congress

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Speaker 2: tell me this is maybe sad. This is one of

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Speaker 2: the most interesting things they're doing in Congress is coming

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Speaker 2: to these dinners. Now, obviously there's hyperbole there, but clearly

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Speaker 2: they enjoy it. And we get you know, about two

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Speaker 2: hundred two hunred and fifty members of Congress coming every

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Speaker 2: time I have a dinner.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So you're moving the needle, however incrementally it is.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's better than these folks not talking

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Speaker 1: to each.

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Speaker 2: Other, better than food fights. And remember and during the

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Speaker 2: Civil War we had over sixty times during the Civil

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Speaker 2: War members of Congress would get into fights with other

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Speaker 2: members of Congress on the floor of the House or

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Speaker 2: the Senate. Sixty times fights, fist fights. Their most famous

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Speaker 2: one was one one member of the House took a

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Speaker 2: cane and bashed ahead of a senator he didn't like

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Speaker 2: and took a long time for that center recover. But

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Speaker 2: that we're not doing that now.

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Speaker 1: For although sometimes it feels like we're coming pretty close.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of division in the Congress, but the

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Speaker 2: division that Congress really affects, it reflects the division in

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Speaker 2: the country. Members of Congress really reflect our constituents. And

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Speaker 2: as you know, we now have blue states in red states.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty, for example, Richard Nixon campaigned in all

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Speaker 2: fifty states because he didn't really know who would win

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Speaker 2: the particular states. They weren't red in blue states necessarily. Today,

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Speaker 2: most people running for president are going to campaign in

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Speaker 2: about seven states because those are the only states we

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Speaker 2: don't know for certain how they're going to happen or

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Speaker 2: what they're going to do. So, for example, if you

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Speaker 2: became a candidate for president United States tomorrow and you're

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Speaker 2: the Democratic candidate, you're going to win New York or California.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't make a difference what you say or what

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Speaker 2: you do. And if, by contrast, you became a Republican,

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Speaker 2: you're Republican nominee. You're going to win Texas or Mississippi

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Speaker 2: or Alabama. So most those states are not relevant for

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Speaker 2: the presidential election because we know how they're going to go.

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Speaker 2: So we're now really focused on seven states, the so

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Speaker 2: called five swing states, and maybe two more swing states

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Speaker 2: that now might be swing states. And it's an interesting

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Speaker 2: phenomenon that you can have people in just a few

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Speaker 2: states really decide the presidential election.

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Speaker 1: You've been in DC most of your life, you're in

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Speaker 1: astute observer of both business and politics. What should we

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Speaker 1: credit this this huge We're no longer purple, we're blue

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Speaker 1: and red. Some people point to Citizens United. Some people

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Speaker 1: talk to how toxic social media. I'm assuming it's much

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Speaker 1: more complex than either of those answers. But what's your perspective?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a very complicated subject. But I think a

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Speaker 2: lot of people who are not happy with what goes

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Speaker 2: on in Washington feel that the country has moved away

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Speaker 2: from them and that the country is much different than

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Speaker 2: the country they thought it was going to be when

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Speaker 2: they were in the grade school. Remember in nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: when John Kenny ran for president, the country was ninety

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Speaker 2: percent white, eight percent black, two percent Hispanic. That was

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Speaker 2: basically it. Today we're a much more diverse country, obviously,

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Speaker 2: and I think the diversity has upset some people, rightly

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Speaker 2: or wrongly. And therefore I think some people feel that

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Speaker 2: the country has gone away from them, that the globalization

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Speaker 2: of the economy has taken jobs away from them, that

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Speaker 2: a lot of them feel they're not yet the benefits

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Speaker 2: of America. For example, only forty percent of American adults

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Speaker 2: are college educated, I mean sixty percent or not. So

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Speaker 2: if you are not college educated, your job has been

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Speaker 2: lost on an over offshore company, you're going to be

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Speaker 2: very disappointed. And many of those people are disappointed and

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Speaker 2: looking for people who are maybe more xenophobic than maybe

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Speaker 2: we should be the case. So I do think it's

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Speaker 2: the case that you have many people now in the

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Speaker 2: country who are very disaffected from the country's image that

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Speaker 2: they grew up with.

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Speaker 1: I saw something a couple of years ago about the

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Speaker 1: impact of gerrymandering that has shifted our elections to the primary.

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Speaker 1: If you're in a safe district for either a Democrat

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Speaker 1: or a Republican, it's the primary that matters, not the general.

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Speaker 1: And when the primary matters. You tend to get Republicans

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Speaker 1: who are more right rightist and Democrats who are more leftist.

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Speaker 1: Any truth to.

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Speaker 2: That, Yes, that's a very good point. For example, it's

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Speaker 2: something like ninety five to ninety six percent of people

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Speaker 2: who run for reelection in Congress get elected. Now, it's

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Speaker 2: in part because if you win the primary, you're probably

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Speaker 2: going to win because your district has been probably gerrymandered,

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Speaker 2: or it's probably a very Republican or very democratic district.

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Speaker 2: So how do you win ninety five percent of the time, Well,

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Speaker 2: whoever has the most money usually wins, not always, but usually.

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Speaker 2: So what do you do is you spend a lot

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Speaker 2: of your time raising money. So about forty percent of

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Speaker 2: the time members in the House is raising money. It's

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Speaker 2: because whoever has the most money will probably win, and

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Speaker 2: therefore there's a lot of emphasis on raising money. And

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Speaker 2: you don't raise money typically by saying I want to

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Speaker 2: go to Washington and be right down the middle. I

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Speaker 2: want to be a person who decides what's right or

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Speaker 2: depending on the facts as I look at them, they

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Speaker 2: tend to tend to say I'm going to be very

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Speaker 2: far to the right or very far to the left,

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Speaker 2: and that's what enables people to raise money. If you

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Speaker 2: went to Congress and you were a member of Congress

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Speaker 2: and you said, your constituents, I want to go and

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Speaker 2: assess each matter on a deal by deal basis, and

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Speaker 2: I want to be right down the middle. What is

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Speaker 2: really the best compromise? You probably won't raise a lot

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Speaker 2: of money, right.

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Speaker 1: And that's how we end up with a deeply polarized

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Speaker 1: Congress that arguably is much more polarized than the nation

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Speaker 1: at large.

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Speaker 2: Well, typically you're seeing some people on the far right

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Speaker 2: and maybe on the far left as well. They are

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Speaker 2: making speeches on the floor of the House at the

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Speaker 2: very moment that their campaign operation is saying, see what

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Speaker 2: our member is saying on the floor of the house.

438
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: Give us money, Now, give us five dollars, ten dollars,

439
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 2: fifteen dollars. And the fundraising that comes in from small

440
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 2: donations is quite large.

441
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 1: Really quite fascinating. So you've written a number of really

442
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: interesting books based on conversations with various leaders. The Highest Calling,

443
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: What was the motivation for this book on not just

444
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 1: presidents but policy and politics.

445
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 2: Well, let me talk about the presidency for a moment.

446
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: The title is The Highest Calling Historically I've said the

447
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 2: highest calling of mankind is private equity. Obviously tongue in cheek,

448
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 2: it gets a laugh from people because they recognized that

449
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: private equity is probably not the highest calling of mankind.

450
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 2: But the highest calling really reflects maybe the most important

451
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: job in the Western world, which is the presidency of

452
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,199
Speaker 2: the United States. When George Washington was elected president, he

453
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: wasn't the most important person in the world. Probably the

454
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 2: President of the United States did not become the most

455
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: important person in the world until Woodrow Wilson went to

456
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: Paris in right after World War One, or at the

457
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 2: end of World War One, to negotiate the treaty that

458
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,159
Speaker 2: in World War One, and as he went there he

459
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 2: was descended upon by hundreds of thousand people thanking him

460
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 2: for winning the war. And then after wilson presidence, he

461
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 2: became less significant, as we had some presidents who weren't

462
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: so well known or so historic, hardang or Coolidge. But

463
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: then when FDR became president, he took over in effect

464
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 2: the Western world and became the most important person in

465
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: the Western world. And ever since that time, the President

466
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 2: of United States has been the most important person I

467
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: think in the Western world. Certainly, if not the world.

468
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: And so I tried to do in the book is

469
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 2: interview great scholars about great presidents, what made them important,

470
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 2: what made them do well or do poorly, and then

471
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 2: talk about from presidents directly that I've interviewed. And I

472
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: have a number of interviews in there with presidents of

473
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 2: night states that I did the interviews myself. So what

474
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do with the book is simply this

475
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: say to people, learn your presidents, learn your presidential candidates,

476
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 2: and vote. In this country, about two thirds of the

477
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: people vote for president. That means about eighty million people

478
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: who are eligible to vote don't vote. Eighty million people.

479
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: In the year two thousand, only five hundred and thirty

480
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 2: nine votes made a difference about who was elected president.

481
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: I states the votes in Florida. So I want everybody

482
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: to think about this, maybe read the book, think about

483
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: why the president's so important, and go out and vote.

484
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to do with the book.

485
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: So you describe the presidency as the most important, at

486
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: least in the modern era, as the most important job

487
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: in the world, is it safe to say this is

488
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,439
Speaker 1: the single most difficult job in the world.

489
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: Well, other than the job of doing interviewing as you

490
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 2: and I are doing.

491
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 1: I'm going to let you in a little secret. I

492
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: think you and I have the best gigs in all

493
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: the finance. You find this difficult dinout.

494
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 2: It's fun. I'm just being facetious. I would say the

495
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: presidency is often said to be the hardest job in

496
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: the world, and so it does have enormous amount of

497
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 2: difficulties to it because everything you do affects everybody in

498
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 2: the world. If a president makes a decision, it's going

499
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: to affect people all over the world almost all the time.

500
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,880
Speaker 2: So it's a tough decision. If you talk what people

501
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 2: who become president, they age, they age a lot. When

502
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 2: you look at somebody who's been in there for four

503
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,239
Speaker 2: years or eight years, you see what they look like

504
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 2: at the end, what they look like in the beginning,

505
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: you kind of realize how it can really aige you.

506
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: And the reason is the toughest decisions get resolved only

507
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: by the president. If it's not that tough, it'll get

508
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: resolved at a lower level. When it comes to a

509
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 2: president making the final decision, it's usually the very difficult decision.

510
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: So you do a poll in the book on the

511
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: best and worst presidents in US history. What motivated that

512
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 1: poll and what surprised you and those results.

513
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: I had a poll commissioned to just figure out who

514
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: people thought were the best presidents, who were the worst presidents,

515
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: What are the qualities you want? And not surprisingly, the

516
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: poll shed that Abraham Lincoln was probably the best president,

517
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: George Washington and maybe the second best. But in some

518
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: respects more modern presidents have very high ratings as well.

519
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 2: President Kennedy is extremely highly regarded today, even though interestingly,

520
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 2: only seventy percent of Americans. It's hard for you and

521
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: I to believe we were alive when President Kenny was alive.

522
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: Only seventy percent of Americans. Thirty thirty percent of Americans

523
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: were alive when President Kenny was alive. Seventy percent of

524
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: Americans don't know anything about him. They were very little

525
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 2: about Hi because they weren't alive when he was president.

526
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 2: I'm the chairman of the Kennedy Center in Washington that

527
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: we've built an exhibition recently to show people of who

528
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: President Ken Kenny was and what he's done. What I

529
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 2: think overall, what I'm trying to do with the book

530
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: is say to people, have a civic responsibility and learn

531
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 2: your president's presidential candidates be informed, learn about their personalities,

532
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: their characteristics, their programs, and then make a decision to vote.

533
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: In this country, we have pretty much the lowest percentage

534
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: of people in Western democracies who are actually voting. So

535
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: in some countries maybe they get financial incentives to vote,

536
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 2: but you get ninety ninety five percent of people or

537
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: more voting in a major election. Here, we get maybe

538
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: two thirds in a presidential election. In non presidential election years,

539
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: we sometimes can get mayors elected in let's say New

540
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 2: York City or someplace else with twenty percent of the vote.

541
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of fascinating. I always wondered is

542
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: that a function of a dysfunctional democracy or is it

543
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 1: a function of an economy that's so robust that people

544
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: almost don't care. Hey, we're so wealthy as a nation,

545
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: whoever's president is almost irrelevant.

546
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 2: There are many different reasons why people don't vote. Some

547
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: people have a theory that people are generally happy with

548
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: where the situation is, and they think the outcome is

549
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: likely predictable, and so why would they make a difference

550
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: by voting. Some people can't really vote easily because you

551
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 2: have to wait in lines if you don't vote early.

552
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: And sometimes people don't have the ability to wait in lines.

553
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: Sometimes people don't know much about voting in advance or

554
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 2: doing the ability to get a valid in advance. There

555
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 2: are many different reasons, but I think it's unfortunate that

556
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 2: people don't vote, and I really encourage people to vote,

557
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: and whatever your decision is, vote and just make the

558
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: democracy stronger. If you have ninety five percent of the

559
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: people voting who are eligible to vote, more likely than

560
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: not that government is going to have be empowered to

561
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: really do much more than would do if only you

562
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 2: know sixty percent voted.

563
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: You know you look. In Europe and many other democracies,

564
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: election day is a national holiday. The stock markets closed,

565
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 1: the banks are closed, people at schools are closed. It

566
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: encourages people to go out and vote. Is that something

567
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: we should be thinking about here?

568
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: We should look at things like that. For example, people

569
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: have suggested we allow people to vote on Sundays or

570
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: basically make election Day Sunday now for religious reasons. People

571
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: don't like that in some cases, but having it as

572
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 2: a national holiday wouldn't be a big idea. Now with

573
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: advanced vote or early voting. We've mitigated that problem to

574
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 2: some extent, but making it a national holiday, we have

575
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: a lot of national holidays. Adding one more probably wouldn't

576
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: be the worst thing in the world.

577
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,479
Speaker 1: So let's get back to the highest calling to the book.

578
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: One of the things that really struck me were the

579
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: last two chapters, on Trump and on Biden. Those two

580
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: chapters felt very different to me than the rest of

581
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: the book. And I don't know if it was the

582
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: conversation or just because it's so present and current and fresh,

583
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: but they felt qualitatively different than me. It's also as

584
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: you're reading it, the things that are being discussed are

585
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: just so fresh and vivid in my recollection, but I

586
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: found those two chapters to be really intriguing. Both journalists

587
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: you interviewed and both subject matters really fascinating.

588
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: Well. Maggie Habram is a New York Times reporter who

589
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: covered President Trump when he was at the White House.

590
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: She also covered him before he became president. Like many

591
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: books about the Trump administration, her book, called A Confidence Man,

592
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: was not probably that favorable. Franklin four is a journalist

593
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 2: at the Atlantic and he took the first two years

594
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: of the Biden administration and wrote about it, and it

595
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: was one of the best books that had been written

596
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 2: so far about the Biden administration. So while I do

597
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: have an interview with President Biden in the book, and

598
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: I do know him reasonably well, I thought having a

599
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: journalist perspective would add something to the book. And Franklin

600
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 2: Ford did a really good job in the first two

601
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: years of the Biden administration. Obviously didn't cover the last

602
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: two years of it. But the books about presidents probably

603
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: are best read twenty or thirty years after the or written,

604
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: but probably best twenty or thirty years after the president served,

605
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: because you really get more data. Then you have more information.

606
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: But I think for a book that's really relatively contemporaneous

607
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: with the president, Franklin Ford did a very good job

608
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: describing Biden. It's just you have to bring your own

609
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 2: perspectives to it. But I try to be as balanced

610
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: as I can. And as I point out in the book,

611
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 2: while I did work in the Carter White House, I

612
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: do not give money to politicians. I make no political contributions.

613
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 2: I don't advocate any candidate or at any given time,

614
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: so I'm as apolitical as probably you can realistically be.

615
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: I also have you know, because I chair the Kennedy

616
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: Center and chair the Smithsonian share the Library of Congress board,

617
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: I felt that I would be best to be a

618
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: political So.

619
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: You interview Biden, you interview Trump, you interview George W. Bush,

620
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: You interview Bill Clinton. Both journalists you interviewed. They seem

621
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: very forthcoming. It doesn't feel like they're hedging their words

622
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: or being guarded. Some parts of the conversations with presidents,

623
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: it seems like they are very intimately aware that everything

624
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: they say impacts their legacy.

625
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: Sure, journalists, their job is to penetrate the information that

626
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 2: is available and kind of give it the perspective that

627
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: they have and write as fully as they can about it.

628
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: Presidents are more guarded. All politicians are more guarded. Some

629
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: presidents don't have filters, but generally presidents have filters and

630
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: they say things that you know they're going to probably

631
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: appeal to their constituents. There was a movie where Warren

632
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: Batty played a Canada candidate named Bullfinch. I think it

633
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 2: was Oh Sure, and basically that candidate had no filter

634
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: and was saying things you shouldn't say. You rarely get

635
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: candidates getting to be the president United States without some filter. Obviously,

636
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: some candidates in recent years have been thought to be

637
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: having not enough of a filter, but generally they have

638
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: some kind of filter. Journalists don't have a filter as

639
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: much because they're not basically trying to run for election

640
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: and get votes.

641
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: Do you find when you're talking to a president and

642
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: you're past the thirty or forty minute mark, their guard

643
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: drops a little bit. You can get a little more

644
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: to the core without that facade or media training show

645
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: getting in the way.

646
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 2: Well, they're pretty experienced. If you interviewed Bill Clinton or

647
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 2: George W. Bush, and I've done that several times, they're

648
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: very experienced, and they're not likely to say some things

649
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: that are going to be get them in trouble. I

650
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: wouldn't think, because at this point they're so experienced and

651
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 2: so used to doing interviews. But sometimes people say things

652
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: off the record that you don't publish, but that you

653
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: do get a better sense of them in that way.

654
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: But off the record is something that people don't do

655
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: as much anymore because nobody thinks anything's really off the

656
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 2: record anymore.

657
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: My sense of George W. Bush is that he wasn't

658
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: Obviously Trump is the ultimate unfiltered president, but I never

659
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: really got the sense that despite growing up in a

660
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: political family his father was first head of the CIA

661
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: and then vice president, then president, he doesn't strike me

662
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: as someone who was especially filtered. He doesn't reveal what

663
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to reveal, but it seems like there

664
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: are broad areas he's very comfortable talking about what was

665
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: your experience like interviewing Bush.

666
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: I've known the Bush family for quite some time. George

667
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: Herbert Walker Bush joined my firm as an advisor after

668
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: he left the presidency, so I got to know him,

669
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: and I got to know his son reasonably well. George

670
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: Herbert Walker Bush and George W. Bush are really very

671
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: different personalities. George Herbert Walker Bush grew up really in Connecticut.

672
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: George W. Bush grew up in Texas. George W. Bush

673
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: I think reflects his mother's personality more than his father's.

674
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: And his mother was very had a sharp tongue, and

675
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: she was fairly critical of certain things, and she would

676
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: tell you what she would say thought without a filter.

677
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: And George W. Reflected that to some extent as well.

678
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: As he became more experience in politics, I think he

679
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: had a little bit more of a filter. But still

680
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 2: he's willing to make fun of other people. He's willing

681
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: to use humor in a way that I think is

682
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: advantageous for him. And so I think the interview in

683
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: the book is it does reflect his personality.

684
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: So you had the interview with Peter Baker about Obama,

685
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: I would have loved to see your interview with Obama.

686
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: How come that didn't come about.

687
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: I did interview President Obama at a Carlisle event years ago,

688
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 2: but it was not recorded, and it was right after

689
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: he left the presidency, and just for space and other reasons,

690
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 2: I couldn't get every in there in his scheduling problems

691
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: and so forth. But I think that the Peter Baker

692
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: book on Obama does reflect pretty well what Obama did

693
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 2: as president.

694
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: And he is another one that he seems very structured

695
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: and controlled, but occasionally will tell you what he really thinks.

696
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: Yes, President Obama is an extremely smart person, very intelligent.

697
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 2: President of the Harvard Law Review, and early on he

698
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: decided to get into politics and not really become a

699
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: lawyer or law professor, which he had the opportunity to do.

700
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: I got to know him reasonably well when he was

701
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: President of the United States. Very cerebral, a person who

702
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: would like to would read a hundred page memo and

703
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 2: go through it quite well. He's a very, very talented writer,

704
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 2: maybe the best writer who's been president since Woodrow Wilson.

705
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 1: Wow. Really interesting. So when you the manuscript is locked,

706
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if people are where. You know, when

707
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: a hardcover comes out, it's months in advance. So in

708
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: between the time the is locked and published, we had

709
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: a pretty substantial shift in the political scene here. When

710
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: you submitted this, you could take surveys of Republicans or Democrats,

711
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 1: they were both unhappy with their presidential candidate. We've now

712
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: had this massive change in the paperback version that comes

713
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: out in six months. What's the addendum you're going to

714
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: do about the twenty twenty four election.

715
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: Well, when this went to the printer, it was really

716
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: in June, and at that point Biden and Trump were

717
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: likely to be the nominees. As it was getting ready

718
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: to be printed, all of a sudden, President Biden said,

719
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be the nominee, and as we

720
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: now know, Vice President Harris is the nominee. So I

721
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: did write it in addendum to the book on the

722
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: very back that does say, look what happened in just

723
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: the three weeks after I submitted the manuscript until today,

724
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: which is that you have a new person running for

725
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 2: the Democratic presidency, you have President Trump was shot at,

726
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: and then things like that have changed a great deal.

727
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: So I did try to reflect that. But there's no

728
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: doubt that when you're writing a book about the presidential

729
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 2: situation and you're having the middle of a presidential election,

730
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: things can change. And so even after the last week

731
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: or so, things have changed from what we knew. I

732
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: didn't have a chance to put the Tim Walls selection

733
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: in the book either.

734
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 1: So the book runs from George Washington to Biden. Let's

735
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about how the important roles of

736
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: the president as both leader of the country and leader

737
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: of their party has changed over that two and a

738
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: half century era. How has the role of the president

739
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: of the United States evolved in modern times.

740
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so initially when the president was the president George Washington,

741
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 2: it was not a global figure. Really in the United

742
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: States was not a global country. Today, the United States

743
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: president is the most important person in the Western world.

744
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: For sure. He plays or she will play if she

745
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 2: gets elected, a role where you are not only the

746
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: head of the government, but the most important person in

747
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: the political arena. You're also a global figure who are

748
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: making decisions about war and peace from time to time.

749
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: So it's an incredibly important job. It's hard to think

750
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: that anyone human can do it perfectly, and nobody really

751
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: has done it perfectly. But it's a role that very

752
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: few people would say that there's an equivalent anywhere else

753
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: in the world.

754
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: You've written that as a twelve year old boy, you

755
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: were deeply inspired by President Kenney's inaugural address, particularly his

756
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: call to public service. Tell us about that.

757
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I was young, and my sixth grade teacher went

758
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 2: over that speech with us the day after it was given,

759
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: and I recognized what he was saying is that people

760
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: should give back to the country. He was not from

761
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: a wealthy family. I didn't know what I wanted to

762
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: do at twelve years old, but I thought serving in

763
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: the government in some way would be a thing that

764
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 2: would be a worthy goal, and so I ultimately did

765
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: try to do that by working in the White House

766
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 2: for President Carter. So that led to other things, and

767
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 2: it led to the company that I created, Carlisle, after

768
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: we left the government, and then that became successful and

769
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: I decided to vote a large part of my life

770
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 2: now to philanthropy.

771
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about some of the

772
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: things you do, because it's really a fascinating arc of things. First,

773
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: you're one of the original signers of the Giving Pledge.

774
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that.

775
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: Bill Gates, Melinda Gates, and Warren Buffett conceived of a pledge.

776
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: It's informal, it's not binding in some ways, but it's

777
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: basically an informal pledge that you would give agree to

778
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: give half of your net worth away during your lifetime

779
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: or upon your death. And there were forty of us

780
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: who signed it initially. Now they're probably more than two

781
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: hundred have signed it, mostly from the United States, but

782
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 2: are some certainly from around the rest of the world.

783
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: And it's a commitment that I've tried to honor. I

784
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: have given away a fair amount of money in my

785
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 2: lifetime to things that interestingly get some more get more

786
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: attention than others. So a large part of what I've

787
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: done is met research and universities and scholarships. The thing

788
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: that has caught the most attention is what I've called

789
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: patriotic philanthropy, which is to say, giving money to remind

790
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: people the history and heritage of our country. So fixing

791
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: the Washington Monument, fixing the Lincoln Memorial, fixing the Jefferson Memorial,

792
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: fixing Mount Vernon, things like that, Monticello, Montpelier. I've been

793
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,479
Speaker 2: willing to kind of put up the money to help

794
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: get these things restored on the theory that if they're restored,

795
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 2: people will visit them, and if they visit them, more

796
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: likely they'll learn more about presidence, more about our history

797
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 2: and heritage. And I've done the same in trying to

798
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: buy historic documents like the Magna Carta Declaration of Independence,

799
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: preserve them, have people see them, hopefully learn more about

800
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: our country's history.

801
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: So it's a fascinating phrase, patriotic philanthropy. How did you

802
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: find your way into that space? It didn't seem I

803
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: remember when there was a problem with the Washington Monument

804
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,959
Speaker 1: and there was a cold raise capital kind of repair it.

805
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: It didn't seem that, like very many people are spending time, efforts,

806
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: and money repairing the great monuments of the United States.

807
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 2: Well, many people think that the federal government has the

808
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: responsibility to put up the money for that. So when

809
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: I called the head of the Park Service and said

810
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 2: how long is it going to take to fix it?

811
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: And where you're gonna get the money? He said it's

812
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: going to take a while getting the money from Congress.

813
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 2: I said, forget that. I'll put up the money.

814
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: And I was, wait a secon I got to stop

815
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: you right there. Which monument are we talking about?

816
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: Washington Monument?

817
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: And that was not an insubstantial job. That was tens

818
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: of millions, hundreds of millions.

819
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: No, it wasn't that significant. What happened was the Washington Monument,

820
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: which was opened around eighteen eighty eight or so. They

821
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: had earthquake damage in twenty eleven, and so the head

822
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: of the Park Service said he didn't know exactly what

823
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: it would cost. I said, well, tell me what it

824
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: would cost, and I'll put up the money. And he

825
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: ultimately said that maybe Congress would put up some of

826
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 2: the money, but he was worried initially that Congress wouldn't

827
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: move quickly enough give him the money when he needed it.

828
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 2: So I decided to move quickly to do it. I've

829
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 2: been surprised at how many people think about that because

830
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: it was not the largest gift I've ever given, right

831
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: by far, but it was then Wash the monument the

832
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: symbol of our country, and then a private citizen would

833
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: put up the money for it kind of struck people

834
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: as strange. Why wouldn't let the federal government do it?

835
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: And I've tried to do many things that the federal

836
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: government could eventually do, but maybe they can't move quickly enough,

837
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: or they don't have the resources to do it in

838
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 2: some cases, or they can't allocate their resources. I've tried

839
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 2: to buy historic documents for the same kind of reason.

840
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: The federal government doesn't buy historic documents typically, but I

841
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: think by preserving them, we give people a chance to

842
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 2: see these documents and have them think much more about

843
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: our history and heritage. And the reason that's important is

844
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: Jefferson said that to have a representative democracy work, you

845
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: need to have an informed citizenry, and very often we

846
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: don't have as informed a citizenry as we should have.

847
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 2: We don't teach civics in high school or junior high

848
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,479
Speaker 2: school as much as we used to. Americans don't pass

849
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 2: civics tests very well at all, and as a result,

850
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 2: we don't have people that actually know as much as

851
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,760
Speaker 2: I think they should know about our country, its history,

852
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: and its heritage.

853
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: So you buy a lot of these documents, how are

854
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: they visible to the public.

855
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: All my documents are on display. I put them on

856
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: the Smithsonian or the National Archives or the Library of

857
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 2: Congress or equivalent organization, National Constitution Center, so people can

858
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 2: see them and there'll be obviously a curator describe it

859
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 2: more detail. And the theory is that, well, if you

860
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: could look at what's in the Declaration of Independents on

861
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: a computer slide, you don't need to go see the original.

862
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 2: But the human brain still works in a certain way.

863
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: If you know you're going to see an original, you're

864
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: probably going to read about it before you go there.

865
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: When you go there, you're going to have a curator

866
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: tell you about it, and Effroich, you'll probably read more

867
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 2: about it. So the human brain still gets much more

868
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 2: out of seeing an original. Am I view original building

869
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: or an original document than just seeing something on a

870
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 2: computer slide.

871
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: So the documents that you have purchased and made available

872
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: to the public, the Declaration of Independence, an original copy

873
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: of the Constitution? Did you say Magne Cartas, Yes.

874
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: I bought the only copy in private hands of the

875
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: Magna Karta, and I put it on permanent loan to

876
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: the National Archives.

877
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: Besides those three, which are not insubstantial, any other is worth.

878
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 2: Well, the Bill of Rights. I recently bought a rare

879
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: copy of the Bill of Rights and put that on

880
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: display at the National Archives as well. I have the

881
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,320
Speaker 2: first printings of the Declaration of Independence, the first printings

882
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: of the Constitution that were printed actually in newspapers at

883
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 2: the time, and a lot of other historic documents like that.

884
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,879
Speaker 2: The thirteenth Amendment is also one that I have, which

885
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: is the amendment that abolished slavery.

886
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: Huh really really quite fascinating. Let's talk about boards. You

887
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: sit on a number of boards. Your chairman of the

888
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, the Council

889
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: Law and Foreign Relations, and Nasal Gallery of Art, the

890
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: Economic Club of Washington, the University of Chicago. That's a

891
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: pretty busy schedule. What are you doing with these various

892
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: boards in terms of helping them raise money and helping

893
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: them do programming.

894
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: Nonprofit boards are ones that are time consuming, like for

895
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: profit boards, but there's no compensation. You do it because

896
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 2: you really want to help the cause. I joined all

897
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 2: these boards thinking I wanted to help in that particular

898
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 2: cause or project, and I got elect to chair in

899
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: some cases of it to those boards, and I try

900
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: as a chair to be a representative of the organization

901
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: and to help them raise money. And obviously if you're

902
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 2: the chairman, you're going to be expected to give money

903
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 2: as well. So I've been the chairman of the Kenny

904
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: Center for the last fourteen years, and I'm now the

905
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: chairman of the National Gallery of Art as well and

906
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 2: the chairman of the Library of Congress Board. And the

907
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: Library Congress Board reflects my interest in reading. This weekend

908
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 2: we'll have the National Book Festival in Washington, and I'm

909
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: the chair of that as well, and with the Carla Hayden,

910
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: who's the Library of Congress, and I just love reading.

911
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: I love promoting books, and that's one of the reasons

912
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: why I enjoy the Library of Congress.

913
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: So we'll talk a little bit about books in a

914
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: few moments. I want to stay focused on your alliance

915
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: on scholarships to attend college and law school, and now

916
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: as part of your philanthropy, you're aiming to expand access

917
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: and opportunity for young people from disadvantage backgrounds to get

918
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: a better education.

919
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: Tell us about that My father did not graduate from

920
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,439
Speaker 2: college or high school. He went into World War Two,

921
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 2: came back, got a job in the post office, married

922
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: my mother. They were very young. I was their only child.

923
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: My father had a blue collar salary his whole life,

924
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: and so to go to college I needed a scholarship,

925
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: and I got the biggest scholarship from Duke University. I'm

926
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: sure it was not a basketball scholarship though. And then

927
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: I got a scholarship to go to the Universiticago Law School.

928
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: So I've tried to help those universities by being board chair.

929
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: I've been the I was the board chair of Duke

930
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: University for a long time, and then now I'm chair

931
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: of the Universiticago. I've given a fair amount of money

932
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 2: those universities for scholarships for people who didn't have the

933
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: chance to get there if they didn't have a scholarship.

934
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 2: And I have something I'm very interested in doing because

935
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 2: I think scholarship money is the best money you can

936
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: give to see some progress in the near term. Very

937
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 2: often when you make a philanthropic gift, it may be

938
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: decades before you see the progress. But with scholarships, you

939
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: know you're giving somebody money to go to school who

940
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: otherwise wouldn't go to that school or probably couldn't attend

941
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: that school.

942
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: So let me change gears on you in the last

943
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: few minutes we have. You grew up how far from Baltimore?

944
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: I was in Baltimore.

945
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: You grew up in Baltimore. Now you're the principal owner

946
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: of the Baltimore Orioles, which you purchased this year. Tell

947
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: us what motivated you to buy the team and how

948
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: it's been going.

949
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: I did play Little League baseball, but I assure I

950
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: was not a superstar, and like the all kids who

951
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: play baseball, you always want to play in the major leagues,

952
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 2: but you realize the time you get to fourteen or fifteen,

953
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: now that's not going to happen. I spent most of

954
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 2: my career living in Washington post the White House years,

955
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: and I've given a fair amount of my money and

956
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 2: time to causes in the Washington area or national causes.

957
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: But I felt that I hadn't done enough for Baltimore,

958
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 2: my hometown, which had given me a public school education,

959
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: where my parents were born and raised, where I was raised,

960
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 2: where my parents are buried, and where i'm no doubt

961
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: will be buried as well. And I just thought if

962
00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: an opportunity came along to do more in Baltimore, I

963
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: would try to take advantage of it. And an opportunity

964
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: came along to buy the Baltimore and Oriols, which is

965
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 2: very important to Baltimore. Baltimore has lost a lot of

966
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 2: jobs in recent years, a lot of businesses in recent years,

967
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: and as a result, Baltimore doesn't have as many things

968
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 2: to brag about as maybe New York City or Los Angeles,

969
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 2: and therefore the Oriols, which have been there since nineteen

970
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: fifty four, are really central to the ethos of the city,

971
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 2: and I just thought I wanted to help contributing that way,

972
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: and so I put a team together to buy the Oriols.

973
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: What surprised you most as an owner of a Major

974
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 1: League Baseball.

975
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: Team how dedicated the fans are. I've met fans who've

976
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: had season tickets for forty five years, fifty years in

977
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: some cases, and I'm just surprised how people regard baseball

978
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: and the Oriels almost like a religion, and people know

979
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 2: every statistic, they watch every game. People are much more

980
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: dedicated than I actually knew, and I was surprised how

981
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: important Baltimore really regards the Oriols es central to it's fabric,

982
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: and so that's been one of the most important things

983
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: I've learned.

984
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: So let me give you an opportunity to put push

985
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: back on some nonsense I read when it was first announced.

986
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 1: Oh no, a private equity guy is buying the Orioles.

987
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: Ticket price is going to go up. Hot dog price

988
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 1: is going to going up. This is going to be

989
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: a disaster.

990
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: Well, there are private equity people before me who have

991
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: bought sports teams and the results have been reasonably good.

992
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 2: I think. You know, baseball is a complicated sport because

993
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: it doesn't have kind of the arrangements that the NFL

994
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: has or the NBA has, and so it's a much

995
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: more challenge for small town teams to do as well

996
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 2: as big town teams. But you know, I don't think

997
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: that's the biggest focus is increasing prices on food or

998
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 2: something like that. Our focus is winning a championship and

999
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 2: giving the best team we can on the putting the

1000
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: best team we can on the field, and that's what

1001
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 2: I'm really focused on, and that's what our energies are

1002
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: are devoted to.

1003
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 1: And arguably, you have the best stadium in all of

1004
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: major league sports. What makes Baltimore so special.

1005
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 2: In the nineteen fifties and sixties and seventies, stadiums were

1006
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: being built around the country that are were what I

1007
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 2: would call androgynists. They could be used for football, they

1008
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 2: could do used for baseball, and they were not really

1009
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: baseball centered the way let's say Wrigley Field or Fenway is.

1010
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: And as a result, baseball kind of went away from

1011
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: its roots and having very unique kind of designs in

1012
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: its stadiums. When Camden Yards was open about thirty years ago,

1013
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: it returned baseball to its roots and building a stadium

1014
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: is built only for baseball and which has some of

1015
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: the unique characteristics. And it's now thirty years old. We'll

1016
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 2: rehabit over the next three or four years with money

1017
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: that the State of Maryland is providing us, and so

1018
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 2: we wanted to make it one of the best experiences

1019
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: in all of baseball. To come to a game like that,

1020
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: experience what a great stadium is like, and actually enjoy

1021
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 2: the team on the field. It's an historic stadium in

1022
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 2: many respects. It's not old, but it's thirty years ago

1023
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 2: when it was built, but it now is iconic. It's

1024
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: iconic because many stadiums that are being built since the

1025
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: Camden Yards have built, are trying to pattern themselves after

1026
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 2: what Camden Yard cas is looking like. And so today

1027
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: when baseball stadiums are built, they're built to be like

1028
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: the old stadiums. They're not built to be ready for

1029
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 2: football or some other sport.

1030
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: I grew up as a long suffering Mets fan and

1031
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,439
Speaker 1: spends a lot of afternoons at Shea Stadium, and when

1032
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: the new city Field was rebuilt, Camden Yards seems to

1033
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 1: be the blueprint for that. Arguably city Field is a

1034
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: better experience for a fan than the new Yankee Stadium.

1035
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 2: Well, I've been to the Yankee Stadium and I've been

1036
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: to city Field recently. In fact, the last two days

1037
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 2: we had games in there with the Mets, and unfortunately,

1038
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: as we talked today, we lost two of the three

1039
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 2: games to the Mets, and I in kind of walk

1040
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 2: off home runs in the last inning. But the stadium

1041
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: is very modern in many respects. It's it's iconic and

1042
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: the fact that it does look like a baseball stadium

1043
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: but has electronics and a scoreboard and other kinds of

1044
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: fan services that are really unique. So I think people

1045
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: should be press out in new York of that stadium.

1046
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 1: Yep, they did a really nice job. All Right, I

1047
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: only have you for a few minutes, so we're going

1048
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: to jump to our speed round. Let's go through these

1049
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: as quickly as we can, starting with who are your

1050
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: mentors who helped shape your career?

1051
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 2: Well, I worked in the White House for a man

1052
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 2: named Stuart Eisenstadt. I dedicated the book to Ted Sorenson,

1053
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: who I mentioned earlier, and to Stuart eisenstadd he was

1054
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: my mentor who helped me work at the White House

1055
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 2: and been very helpful to me, and I would cite

1056
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: him as a mentor.

1057
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: I know you're a big reader, supposedly used to read

1058
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 1: four or five books a week when you were younger.

1059
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: What are some of your favorites and what are you

1060
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: reading right now?

1061
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 2: Well, right now, I've just finished reading a book called

1062
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 2: g Man, written by a professor at Yale, and the

1063
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: book won the Pulitzer Prize. It's about Jaegar Hoover, a

1064
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: really good book. I just finished reading a book on

1065
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King that also won the Pulitzer Prize by

1066
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 2: Jonathan Eig. Those are really really good books. I just

1067
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: finished reading a book about Winston Churchill by Eric Larson,

1068
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 2: about Churchill's first year in office. And I think that's

1069
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: an excellent book as well. I like reading books that

1070
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: are non fiction books, and typically books that are, you know,

1071
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: books about history. But I did read a book by

1072
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 2: a very famous author, James Patterson recently, on his new

1073
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 2: book on Tiger Woods. I'm going to interview James Patterson soon,

1074
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: and he's written enormous number of books, but this one

1075
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 2: on Tiger Woods is quite interesting and I enjoyed that

1076
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 2: as well.

1077
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: Huh, really intriguing. You mentioned McCullough early. Did you ever

1078
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: read his book on the Wright Brothers.

1079
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: Of course, I interviewed him about that book, and I

1080
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: think if it's a great book. I didn't really know

1081
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 2: much about the Wright Brothers compared to what I should

1082
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 2: have known, and he didn't know much either, and he

1083
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 2: dug into it and he actually he did a great book. Yeah.

1084
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: Really fascinating. Right. Our final two questions, what advice would

1085
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: you give to a recent college grad interest in the

1086
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: career in either private equity, philanthropy, or invest in.

1087
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: Learn how to read. Keep reading. You can't read too

1088
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 2: many books. Learn how to write in a simple way.

1089
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: Learn how to communicate orally, experiment, try many different things.

1090
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 2: Don't take the path of least resistance. Don't make ethical mistakes,

1091
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 2: because in the end you could ruin your entire life.

1092
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 2: You only have your reputation to give. You only have

1093
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 2: your reputation to walk around with, and if you ruin

1094
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 2: your reputation, you'll never be able to recover it.

1095
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the

1096
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: world of private equity investing today? You wish you knew

1097
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: back in nineteen eighty seven when you were first launching

1098
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: the firm.

1099
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: Well, I wish I knew how big and complicated it was.

1100
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 2: It wasn't as big and complicated then. I wish I'd

1101
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 2: known many different types of deals that I could have

1102
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 2: done that we didn't do. I passed on some great deals.

1103
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: We had a chance to invest early on in a

1104
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 2: company like Amazon, and we passed up on that, and

1105
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: we had stock in it, but we didn't really hold

1106
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 2: it as long as we should have. So I've made

1107
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 2: a lot of mistakes, but on the whole, I'm reasonably

1108
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 2: satisfied with where my career now is.

1109
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: Well, this has been just tremendous. Thank you, David for

1110
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: being so generous with your time. We have been speaking

1111
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: with David Rubinstein, founder of the Carlisle Group and author

1112
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: most recently of the Highest Calling Conversations on the American Presidency.

1113
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this conversation, check out any of our

1114
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 1: previous five hundred interviews we've had over the past is

1115
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: it ten years? Wow? Over the past ten years. You

1116
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: can find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you find

1117
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 1: your favorite podcast, And be sure and check out my

1118
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: new podcast, At the Money, short form interviews with experts

1119
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: on specific topics ten to twelve minutes with various people

1120
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: talking about your money, earning it, spending it, and most

1121
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: importantly investing it. At the Money wherever you find your

1122
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: favorite podcast, and in the Masters in Business podcast feed.

1123
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the

1124
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: crack team that helps with these conversations together each week.

1125
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: My audio engineer is Meredith Rank. My producers Anna Luke.

1126
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: Sage Bauman is head of Podcasts at Bloomberg. A Teak

1127
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: of Albron is our project manager. Sean Russo is my

1128
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: head of research. I'm Barry Ritolts. You've been listening to

1129
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.