WEBVTT - Building On Bitcoin 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.400 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.680 this learned. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.159 Today I am joined by Justin Moon. He is a 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.560 developer and an educator and he hosts build a boot 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.640 camp where he teaches people how to code on bitcoin 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.600 and build applications on bitcoin. And we get into all 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.200 types of conversations, including ways that people can get involved 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:48.520 with bitcoin. UM, so many different options. We talked about 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:50.320 ways that people are building and what kind of options 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.280 are available there, and then we get into security of bitcoin. 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.760 We talked about bitcoin wallets, bitcoin security, bitcoin protocols, UM, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.360 what would be maybe the easiest way for big inners, 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.600 and then what's more advanced ways as people want to 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.399 grow their security UM. I liked what he said that 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:08.920 complexity is the enemy of security, and so we talked 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:11.840 about that and so many other ways to protect your privacy. 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:13.840 It was a really good conversation with Justin. So let's 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.319 go ahead and just jump right into it. Hey, everyone, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.600 welcome to another episode of the Market Distructors podcast. Today, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.000 I am joined by Justin Moon. He is a bitcoin 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.760 developer an educator and uh, I'm really excited to have 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.920 him on the show. Welcome Justin. Thanks for having me. Mark. So, 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.200 I met you in Texas a few weeks ago at 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.840 a bitcoin conference and you were given a talk about 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.320 wallets and security and things like that. Really good talk, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.600 by the way. I appreciated that. Why don't you just 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.640 give us a little background on you know, who you are, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:46.280 what you've been doing, and what you're doing in the 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:51.360 space right now. So I'm a programmer by trade. I 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.800 learned uh during college. I didn't actually study it in school, 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.520 but I was so bored in school that I just 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:59.160 picked it up on the side because it was fun. Uh. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.200 And so I've been doing for like five six years, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.440 and I got into bitcoin maybe eighteen months ago. Uh 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:10.320 and uh, when I actually understood that it was it 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:12.760 was a really good technical solution. I always thought it 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.120 was it was probably smoking mirrors. But when I went 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:18.520 and studied, I was like, oh wow, this is quite interesting. Uh, 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.519 even if it you know, just on a technical level, 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:23.840 even if it doesn't impact the world at all, it's 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.840 like technically very interesting. So that kind of got me 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.320 in there. And uh and yeah, so after about six months, 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:33.840 I became frustrated with the difficulty of learning how bitcoin works. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.560 Uh you know, y'all you're just like chasing down random 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.560 blog posts and uh, there wasn't really like a really 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.520 many classes I could take to faciltate to just speed 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:45.359 up my learning. So I created a little thing called 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.600 Biddle boot Camp, which is like a six six week 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.800 or so online bitcoin programming boot camp where we do, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:55.359 like very briefly, we we do like three or four 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:57.760 main things. We make like a little mini version of 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.640 the bitcoin network. We write it ourselves so you can 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:04.320 see how the like mining and everything interacts with transactions 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.320 and all this stuff, which is fun. And we do 0:03:06.360 --> 0:03:09.520 a little uh programming with the real bitcoin network, you know, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.720 connecting to all these peers, composing messages, reading messages, trying 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.800 to do stuff like initial block download ourselves, which is 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:18.440 kind of fun. And then we build the hardware wallet 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:21.960 at the end. So that's my Biddle boot Camp class. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.720 And uh, an interesting thing with the Biddle boot Camp 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.680 was that, Uh, a lot of people who are interested 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.680 in it were like really bitcoin people, and they weren't 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:35.160 very sophisticated programming wise, and this might apply to your audience. Uh. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.040 So I ended up creating a little thing called University, 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.360 which is like a learned to code class aimed at 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.600 people who are interested in bitcoins. All the examples involved bitcoins. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.800 So like when we're learning to do a loop, that's 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.280 a common thing you do in in in programming, we 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:53.000 do something repeatedly. Uh, we're trying to solve the question 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.240 of how many times will the bitcoin uh subsidy have? Right, 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.360 there's this happening every four years. So it's like a 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.560 simple base gain out your problem and you can do 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:03.680 it with a like a loop and programming to you know, 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.520 just divide it until it reaches zero and you count 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.800 how many times you do that. So it's it's like 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.200 a lot of fun little exercises like that. So I'm 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.880 sort of one of these advocates for trying to get 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.120 people to understand a bit going on a little more 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.400 technical level, uh, just because I think it's it's very rewarding. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.200 It reduces the chances you lose your coins, which is 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.440 extremely important. I think the best self defense and bitcoin 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.479 is education. Yeah, it's kind of like, was it that 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.599 meme going around like they should just learn to code? Yeah, 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:35.760 learn to code. I actually got suspended from Twitter for 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.200 saying learn to code with some journalists, uh in the 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.440 doghouse for forty eight hours, I think. But yeah, it's 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.159 it's uh. I mean, it's kind of a joke. And 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.320 obviously it's not for everybody. I wouldn't like say, you know, 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.479 like you know, my friends with you know, talk to 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.320 safety and almost every once in a like who wrote 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:53.400 the bitcoin standard for a great book, and like, I 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:54.960 don't want I don't think he should maybe learn to 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.120 code's got his thing figured out, you know, maybe it's not. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:04:59.919 It's just like my point is, it's not for everyone. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:01.839 I think I think a lot of people should try 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:06.120 it because what I love about it is, um, you know, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.400 I love the space. We both love the space. I 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.960 believe it's gonna be one of the most you know, 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.440 one of the biggest technologies to really change things up. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.240 And so there's gonna be all types of opportunities and 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.640 and if you want to get involved, I mean, maybe 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:23.120 you want to do marketing around bitcoin or right content 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.680 around marketing, or maybe you want to code. And so 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.920 there's a bunch of different areas that you can get 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.960 in depend on what you're what you're you know, interests 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.880 are or whatever, but in your background. But I'm curious, So, 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:35.800 like you're teaching people how to write code and then 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:41.760 code on bitcoin, but um, they're not actually changing Bitcoin. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.400 They're not working on bitcoin core. They're working on is 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.640 it like products that would be on bitcoin or working 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.600 with bitcoin like stacking on it. Yeah, So there's a 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:55.600 distinction in bitcoin development. There's a distinction between application development 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.720 and protocol development. Right. So the protocol is, uh, it's 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.839 just a sort of rules, right, and the Bitcoin protocol 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.680 is like an abstract set of rules. Uh. And then 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:08.960 there are different software programs that attempt to like execute 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.760 and enforce these rules, right. And so the oldest one 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.599 is we call it bitcoin core or the Setoshi client. 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.640 It's the thing that Setoshi made, uh. And it was 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.040 really started out as really like a proof of concept, right. 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.120 It's a kind of an ugly piece of code sort 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.560 of hacked to clearly hack together by one person who 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.680 was you know, didn't didn't didn't have the resources available 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.599 to attempt such an ambitious project and was just sort of, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.040 you know, continued to be nursed along for a few 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.960 years until he could get uh some external interests. But 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.880 still it's it's sort of like, uh, it's like it's 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.960 like sort of an ugly UH program, I think, just 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.560 because it's very hard to change because any if you 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.400 make a mistake, the network splits, so you know, the 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.719 developers have to be very very conservative. And some other 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.840 protocol implementations or something like btc D. This is a 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.279 version of an implementation of the Bitcoin rules UH created 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.000 by roast Beef the the or. He's one of the 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.239 people who made it, and he's the guy who makes 0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.240 the l n d UH Lightning protocol implementation as well 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.200 Lightning Labs. He's the CTO of Lightning Labs. There's another 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.040 one called li Bitcoin. There's a number of these UH 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:22.040 protocol rule implementations, and then there's application development, right, so 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.560 that's like your Wasabi wallet or your electron wallet, or 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:30.600 your treads or or maybe like bitmax or backed or 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.840 anyone of these exchanges are on ramps. Also like lending products, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:39.320 the fa basically thing that interacts with bitcoin. I mean 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:43.200 it's an Apple. Yeah, that kind of like like the ice, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:46.960 like the iPhone, and you have like your ILS application, 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:48.360 which is the core, and then you have all the 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:49.960 apps that you can install on them that can do 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.760 any number of things exactly. And but the big distinction 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:55.200 there is that anyone can work. It's very hard to 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.680 actually work on the iOS operating system. You gotta go 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:02.239 get a job at or at Apple. Uh. But with bitcoin, 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.440 you you can work on the bitcoin core project. And 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.840 I've had a few students make small changes to it 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.760 because the codes there and if you notice some bug, 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.280 you can just kind of update it and eventually your 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.120 change will get in if it's a good change, hopefully, 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.320 And so so yeah, that's the distinction is you have 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:22.360 the people who are working on the actual rules. Well 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.440 there's there's sort of like three pieces. There's the people 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.480 who work on the software that like executes the rules, 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.000 the people that build applications on top of it. But 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:31.720 then also like the one group that I don't really 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:34.160 mention is the researchers. They're the ones that think about 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.800 how the rules should change. Right, so segue for example, 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:42.600 was this uh way that the rules changed and uh 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.880 it took a ton of thought, and this is a 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.520 change in the abstract rules of bitcoin, not any piece 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.480 of software that executes those rules. So it's sort of 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.880 like the three different pieces. And I focus more on 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.920 the application development. But I think most, or I would 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.360 say many people who get in involved in bitcoin probably 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.120 start on the application side, like how can I play 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.360 with bitcoin? Right? And as they get deeper, they might 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:08.080 move towards more of a protocol developer and sort of 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.360 the most advanced as a researcher, where you trying to 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.600 think about everything holistically and improve the whole beast. Sure, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.880 but I think for easy comparison sake, I mean a 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.040 lot of people think about building apps for the iPhone 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:21.559 and the Android, but they're not thinking about trying to 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:23.880 build a new Android or go work with Android. They 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.320 just want to make an app for it. Yuh. But 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.319 I guess it's a little bit unique. Bitcoin is a 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.480 little b unique in a sense where it's open source, 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.480 so anybody could just build whatever they want on it, versus, 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.000 like you said before, like the Android iOS, those are 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:38.120 not open source, so you can't just build anything, right, 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.839 it has to be permissioned and within when it's the 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.240 other big difference that's so out of our Bitcoin is 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:46.000 that it's not like the open source is not just 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:47.679 that you can work on it, but it's so easy 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.000 to copy and make a copycat, right, Like trying to 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.000 make a copycat of Android is like absurd because it's 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.880 it's so hard to market it, right, But bitcoin, you know, 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.640 you make an alt coin and try to market it 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:01.520 to people, Well, it's it's very easy and you just 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.600 like light Excuse me, lightcoin took forty five minutes to create, right, 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.120 So it's it's it's it's one of the tough things 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.040 about bitcoin development is there's a huge in sign up 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.280 once people become sophisticated enough door with it to go 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.160 and copy it and compete with it. Uh, just the 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.520 one I like your point, but that's the one distinction 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.679 is it's like you get, it's just so easy to copy. Yeah, 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.400 and then I've heard it. I've heard it said where 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.640 you know, because bitcoins open source and then you can 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:30.080 build whatever applications you want on them, and then you 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:32.559 could start building on top of like other applications. So 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.360 a lot of times these other applications may be open 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.600 source as well, and then it's almost like stacking legos, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.280 so then you can kind of combine other applications to 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.080 make a new application kind of a thing. Yeah, I 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.280 was just playing with BTC bas server. That's the it's 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:49.440 a project. It's like a merchant processor that is self hosted. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.880 You can uh, you know, for like ten five ten 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:55.000 bucks a month, you can run it and accept bitcoin 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.560 payments on your e commerce stores. It's like for my classes, 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.600 I accept payments in bitcoin using this, and you don't 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.480 have to trust a third party, which is really nice. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.680 You actually hold the keys to the bitcoin yourself and 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.080 you run it on a computer that you control. So 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.160 it's it's sort of like goes along with the ethos 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.520 of bitcoin to uh do the verification yourself and not 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.199 trust third parties. And within this BTC pay server application, 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:20.760 there's all these little apps and so one of them 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.559 was one to like export your your invoices to quick books, right, 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.280 and so at this point these are both free, open 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.840 source products, but it is so you're starting to see 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.120 this sort of like stacking of uh. I mean, it's 0:11:33.120 --> 0:11:35.440 it's the BBC PAS server has its own little app 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.440 store kind of inside, which is pretty cool. Uh, And 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:39.880 I think you're gonna see a lot more of that, 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.000 especially as uh you can create you can turn these 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.000 little projects into businesses as bitcoin becomes more popular, especially 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:49.559 if the developers continue to build stuff open source, right, 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.000 so BTC, paser ever built it open source, which allows 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.120 people to now start building on top of it. Um 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.360 I think I guess once people start trying to close 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.880 it off and keep a proprietary then maybe that slows 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.560 things down. Yeah, yeah, I mean you can definitely see that. 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.000 Like I guess the company like Costa Gems tends to 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.040 I guess they have some some some of it open source, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.240 but a lot of quite a bit of its uh 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.319 close to uh. Some some of these companies are trying 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:15.720 to make it more like a walled garden, which always fine, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.400 especially if it might be hard to like build on it, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.960 but especially if you can audit the code. Uh like 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:26.040 if if as as a bitcoin user, you always want 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.720 to demand open source, not because you're gonna go and 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:32.040 read the code, but just because you can sort of 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.880 assume that a popular thing where the code is on 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.080 the internet is going to have some people like justin 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.640 over here, who's gonna migaul and trying to see if 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:41.640 there's something wrong with it. And if there is, tell 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.840 everybody and so that that that's the thing that's really 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.240 powerful about open sources that you can sort of the 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.520 more popular is you can assume more people are sort 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:52.840 of looking at it and they're trying to like attack 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.160 it and figure out ways to break it. So like 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.760 that's a nice thing about the Treads or the whole 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.000 firm where everything about it is is a pretty open store. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:02.360 And you know, and it's been that way for about 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.800 four years. So uh, as your your average non technical 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.679 users should find some comfort in that fact that a 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.400 lot of these sort of like hacker types are competing 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:14.880 with each other to break the treads or and they 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.040 struggle to So that's that's a really nice thing, you know. Yeah, 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.199 so that's a good segue. I wanted to jump into 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.720 UM talking about security. So you mentioned COSA and then 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.560 obviously treads or UM. So at at the bit Block 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.960 Boom conference, you were talking about security and different types 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.960 of custody and wallets and whatnot, and I think you 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.400 you basically, I mean, I guess if you want to 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:38.560 break it down into two big buckets, you have self 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:43.800 custody and then you have someone else holding custody. Uh, 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.920 and then you have shades of that like a cosa 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.840 where there's like maybe some shared stuff, but you either 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.680 have someone do it for you or you do it yourself, right, 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:52.040 and then if you do it yourself, you have a 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:53.640 couple of different options. So what are your what are 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:58.000 your thoughts there? Yeah, so, uh, I guess the big 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:04.360 distinction is uh sort of about really owning bitcoin versus 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.800 having financial exposure to bitcoin. Right, So there's a number 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.640 of ways to get uh. To own bitcoin, you have 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.720 to you have to have control over a secret number. 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.400 Basically it's a huge secret number, like eighty decimal places, 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.160 and that having control over a certain secret number like that, 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.120 it's so big you can't guess it. It would take 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.200 the you know, the age of the universe to guess 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.760 and check whether you your guess was correct. That's the 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.840 security of a That's that's what it means to really 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:35.760 own bitcoin is to have control over one of these 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.360 secret numbers. And that's what a treasure's entire job is 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.280 to safely, generate, store, and interact with this big secret number. Right, 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:48.640 that's the cryptography and cryptocurrency. So so that's what it means. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.960 Just to own bitcoin is to to control that number yourself. 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:56.200 But it's scary because uh, you know, if your software 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.040 has a problem, it might try to steal that number, 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:02.720 or uh, your software might not generate it in a 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.920 in a good way to make it sort of easily guessable. 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:07.400 So there's there's some pitfalls there. So on the other 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.440 side is financial exposure to bitcoin, right, and so when 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.520 you're getting financialists exposure to bitcoin, you don't have all 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.720 the benefits of like, let's say, being able to cross 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:18.840 a border with your bitcoin in your head. You know, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.240 to memorize uh twenty four words and cross the border 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.720 with uh, with your net worth in your head. That's 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.040 like one of the most amazing things about bitcoin. Uh, 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.560 you don't you don't get the privacy benefits, you can't 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.640 transact with it, uh, number of other things that you know, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.600 in the case of a government crackdown, you you you 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:41.840 you aren't sure you'll be able to keep your financial exposure. Uh. 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.360 So so some of the ways you can get financial 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.280 exposure are you know some of these like products uh, like, 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.400 I mean the big one is by quote unquote buying 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.240 coins and starting them on an exchange. What you own 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.800 at that point is an iou you do not own bitcoin. 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.760 You own an IOU that represents bitcoin, and if the 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:05.240 exchange you're working with when completely insolvent tomorrow, you wouldn't 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.200 ever get those bitcoins. And this would happen in Mount 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.520 Docks for example. So these are people who had financial 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:13.960 exposure bitcoin but didn't own them, right, And a lot 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.760 of people think those exchanges are like banks, but they're not. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.680 They're not. They're not insured. Yeah, well, and then even banks, 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:23.280 right like banks, uh, you know, they're insured up to 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.800 a point, but if the banks ever go completely insolvent, 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:30.280 you're not gonna get all your money either or whatever. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.200 The way I like to look at it is that 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.720 everything in life has risks, everything has trade offs, right, 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.440 and we always have to wait with those tradeoffs, and 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.120 those risks are and you know, just like in the 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.320 old days, maybe people kept cash at home and put 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.040 them in the mattress or put it in the walls. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.600 But the risk with that is that you know, your 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.160 house burns down, someone steal as you, robs you whatever, 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.400 or you can put in the bank, but then the 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:53.240 risk is, I mean, what if the bank doesn't give 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.440 your money? And so today kind of the same trade off, 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.960 like I can custom my own bitcoin UM, but that 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.120 that carries risks if I do it wrong, if I 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.440 get hacked, if I lose my password. I could have 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.160 someone stored for me, which probably is does a better 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.359 job of security, So the security risk kind of goes away, 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.919 But then there's risks that maybe they don't give me 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:13.679 my money when I want it, or they go and 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.679 solve it. Like you said, yeah, you don't get all 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.960 the benefits of bitcoin if someone else, if you just 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.720 have this, It's like it's about that other people will 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.040 find these benefits compelling, but you yourself don't get the 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:28.240 benefits because you're you know, you're just using a third party. Yeah, 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.040 so what are what do you think are I know 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.720 you've done quite an extensive review on a lot of 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.000 these different hardware wallets, UM and and and different ways 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:37.639 to secure it. So what do you think are like 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.120 the kind of the first steps that someone should make 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:46.000 that are pretty good without going to overboard. So my 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.840 point of view is that, uh, like when I think 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.040 back to when I first started to use these hardware 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.879 wallets and software wallets, and I think about all the 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.720 mistakes I made. One alarming thing is I was always 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:02.200 using real money, right Like I was, I was learning 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:03.960 how to use it with real money, and if I 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:05.840 made a mistake. I don't think I ever made a 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:09.399 real mistake. I got really close a couple of times, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:11.400 but uh, you know, if I would have made a mistake, 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.840 I would have lost for money. And so the biggest 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:15.960 thing I think of is that if if you really 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.760 want to commit to learning how to use this asset 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:23.040 in a safe way, uh uh you know, to to 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.439 to basically have your own Swiss bank account in your pocket, right, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:30.040 think that's what it is. Uh. If if you want that, 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:35.200 then you have to commit some uh time and energy 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.359 to learning. And the best way to learn is to 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:40.440 use bitcoins test network. It's called test net uh test 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.320 not is you is uh? And this is what we 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.240 do in my Huddle boot camp to class to teach 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:48.320 people some of these self custody fundamentals. Uh. Test ne 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.679 is a a clone of the Bitcoin network that is 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.639 intended to be used by software developers like myself when 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.560 we're building applications. And so every almost every wallet supports 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.600 test not because the developers want to test it when 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.760 they're you know, making changes. They want to test that 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.400 it works without having to risk grow money. But test 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.200 that has a is also very nice if you're trying 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.479 to learn how to use these products, because you can 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.440 screw up and not lose any money, which is fantastic. 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.640 But all the all the hardware wallts, all the software wall, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.520 it's work exactly the same, whether using test net or 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.800 the real bitcoin network which we call main net. So 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.800 that's the big thing I would recommend is is, uh, 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.200 you know, look at it as sort of like maybe 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.600 a couple of months process of learning and just start 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.960 uh downloading wallets and playing with them using bitcoins test 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.119 new And one of the important things I would practice 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:42.400 doing is practice like, uh, practice like losing the wallet. Right, 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.239 so all you have is your your your seed words. Right, 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.760 we have these like twelve or twenty four words that 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.359