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Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like

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Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information

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Speaker 1: we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success.

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Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us

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Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get

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Speaker 1: this learned. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today I am joined by Justin Moon. He is a

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Speaker 1: developer and an educator and he hosts build a boot

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Speaker 1: camp where he teaches people how to code on bitcoin

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Speaker 1: and build applications on bitcoin. And we get into all

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Speaker 1: types of conversations, including ways that people can get involved

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Speaker 1: with bitcoin. UM, so many different options. We talked about

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Speaker 1: ways that people are building and what kind of options

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Speaker 1: are available there, and then we get into security of bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: We talked about bitcoin wallets, bitcoin security, bitcoin protocols, UM,

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Speaker 1: what would be maybe the easiest way for big inners,

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Speaker 1: and then what's more advanced ways as people want to

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Speaker 1: grow their security UM. I liked what he said that

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Speaker 1: complexity is the enemy of security, and so we talked

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Speaker 1: about that and so many other ways to protect your privacy.

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Speaker 1: It was a really good conversation with Justin. So let's

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Speaker 1: go ahead and just jump right into it. Hey, everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of the Market Distructors podcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: I am joined by Justin Moon. He is a bitcoin

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Speaker 1: developer an educator and uh, I'm really excited to have

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Speaker 1: him on the show. Welcome Justin. Thanks for having me. Mark. So,

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Speaker 1: I met you in Texas a few weeks ago at

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Speaker 1: a bitcoin conference and you were given a talk about

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Speaker 1: wallets and security and things like that. Really good talk,

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Speaker 1: by the way. I appreciated that. Why don't you just

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Speaker 1: give us a little background on you know, who you are,

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Speaker 1: what you've been doing, and what you're doing in the

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Speaker 1: space right now. So I'm a programmer by trade. I

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Speaker 1: learned uh during college. I didn't actually study it in school,

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Speaker 1: but I was so bored in school that I just

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Speaker 1: picked it up on the side because it was fun. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And so I've been doing for like five six years,

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Speaker 1: and I got into bitcoin maybe eighteen months ago. Uh

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Speaker 1: and uh, when I actually understood that it was it

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Speaker 1: was a really good technical solution. I always thought it

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Speaker 1: was it was probably smoking mirrors. But when I went

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Speaker 1: and studied, I was like, oh wow, this is quite interesting. Uh,

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Speaker 1: even if it you know, just on a technical level,

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Speaker 1: even if it doesn't impact the world at all, it's

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Speaker 1: like technically very interesting. So that kind of got me

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Speaker 1: in there. And uh and yeah, so after about six months,

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Speaker 1: I became frustrated with the difficulty of learning how bitcoin works.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know, y'all you're just like chasing down random

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Speaker 1: blog posts and uh, there wasn't really like a really

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Speaker 1: many classes I could take to faciltate to just speed

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Speaker 1: up my learning. So I created a little thing called

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Speaker 1: Biddle boot Camp, which is like a six six week

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Speaker 1: or so online bitcoin programming boot camp where we do,

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Speaker 1: like very briefly, we we do like three or four

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Speaker 1: main things. We make like a little mini version of

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Speaker 1: the bitcoin network. We write it ourselves so you can

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Speaker 1: see how the like mining and everything interacts with transactions

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Speaker 1: and all this stuff, which is fun. And we do

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Speaker 1: a little uh programming with the real bitcoin network, you know,

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Speaker 1: connecting to all these peers, composing messages, reading messages, trying

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Speaker 1: to do stuff like initial block download ourselves, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of fun. And then we build the hardware wallet

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Speaker 1: at the end. So that's my Biddle boot Camp class.

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Speaker 1: And uh, an interesting thing with the Biddle boot Camp

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Speaker 1: was that, Uh, a lot of people who are interested

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Speaker 1: in it were like really bitcoin people, and they weren't

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Speaker 1: very sophisticated programming wise, and this might apply to your audience. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So I ended up creating a little thing called University,

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Speaker 1: which is like a learned to code class aimed at

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Speaker 1: people who are interested in bitcoins. All the examples involved bitcoins.

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Speaker 1: So like when we're learning to do a loop, that's

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Speaker 1: a common thing you do in in in programming, we

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Speaker 1: do something repeatedly. Uh, we're trying to solve the question

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Speaker 1: of how many times will the bitcoin uh subsidy have? Right,

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Speaker 1: there's this happening every four years. So it's like a

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Speaker 1: simple base gain out your problem and you can do

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Speaker 1: it with a like a loop and programming to you know,

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Speaker 1: just divide it until it reaches zero and you count

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Speaker 1: how many times you do that. So it's it's like

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun little exercises like that. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sort of one of these advocates for trying to get

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Speaker 1: people to understand a bit going on a little more

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Speaker 1: technical level, uh, just because I think it's it's very rewarding.

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Speaker 1: It reduces the chances you lose your coins, which is

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Speaker 1: extremely important. I think the best self defense and bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is education. Yeah, it's kind of like, was it that

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Speaker 1: meme going around like they should just learn to code? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: learn to code. I actually got suspended from Twitter for

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Speaker 1: saying learn to code with some journalists, uh in the

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Speaker 1: doghouse for forty eight hours, I think. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's uh. I mean, it's kind of a joke. And

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Speaker 1: obviously it's not for everybody. I wouldn't like say, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you know, my friends with you know, talk to

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Speaker 1: safety and almost every once in a like who wrote

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Speaker 1: the bitcoin standard for a great book, and like, I

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Speaker 1: don't want I don't think he should maybe learn to

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Speaker 1: code's got his thing figured out, you know, maybe it's not.

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Speaker 1: It's just like my point is, it's not for everyone.

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Speaker 1: I think I think a lot of people should try

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Speaker 1: it because what I love about it is, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I love the space. We both love the space. I

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Speaker 1: believe it's gonna be one of the most you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest technologies to really change things up.

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Speaker 1: And so there's gonna be all types of opportunities and

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Speaker 1: and if you want to get involved, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: you want to do marketing around bitcoin or right content

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Speaker 1: around marketing, or maybe you want to code. And so

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch of different areas that you can get

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Speaker 1: in depend on what you're what you're you know, interests

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Speaker 1: are or whatever, but in your background. But I'm curious, So,

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Speaker 1: like you're teaching people how to write code and then

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Speaker 1: code on bitcoin, but um, they're not actually changing Bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: They're not working on bitcoin core. They're working on is

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Speaker 1: it like products that would be on bitcoin or working

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Speaker 1: with bitcoin like stacking on it. Yeah, So there's a

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Speaker 1: distinction in bitcoin development. There's a distinction between application development

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Speaker 1: and protocol development. Right. So the protocol is, uh, it's

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Speaker 1: just a sort of rules, right, and the Bitcoin protocol

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Speaker 1: is like an abstract set of rules. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: there are different software programs that attempt to like execute

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Speaker 1: and enforce these rules, right. And so the oldest one

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Speaker 1: is we call it bitcoin core or the Setoshi client.

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Speaker 1: It's the thing that Setoshi made, uh. And it was

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Speaker 1: really started out as really like a proof of concept, right.

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Speaker 1: It's a kind of an ugly piece of code sort

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Speaker 1: of hacked to clearly hack together by one person who

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Speaker 1: was you know, didn't didn't didn't have the resources available

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Speaker 1: to attempt such an ambitious project and was just sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, continued to be nursed along for a few

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Speaker 1: years until he could get uh some external interests. But

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Speaker 1: still it's it's sort of like, uh, it's like it's

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Speaker 1: like sort of an ugly UH program, I think, just

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Speaker 1: because it's very hard to change because any if you

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Speaker 1: make a mistake, the network splits, so you know, the

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Speaker 1: developers have to be very very conservative. And some other

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Speaker 1: protocol implementations or something like btc D. This is a

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Speaker 1: version of an implementation of the Bitcoin rules UH created

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Speaker 1: by roast Beef the the or. He's one of the

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Speaker 1: people who made it, and he's the guy who makes

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Speaker 1: the l n d UH Lightning protocol implementation as well

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Speaker 1: Lightning Labs. He's the CTO of Lightning Labs. There's another

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Speaker 1: one called li Bitcoin. There's a number of these UH

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Speaker 1: protocol rule implementations, and then there's application development, right, so

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Speaker 1: that's like your Wasabi wallet or your electron wallet, or

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Speaker 1: your treads or or maybe like bitmax or backed or

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Speaker 1: anyone of these exchanges are on ramps. Also like lending products,

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Speaker 1: the fa basically thing that interacts with bitcoin. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's an Apple. Yeah, that kind of like like the ice,

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Speaker 1: like the iPhone, and you have like your ILS application,

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Speaker 1: which is the core, and then you have all the

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Speaker 1: apps that you can install on them that can do

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Speaker 1: any number of things exactly. And but the big distinction

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Speaker 1: there is that anyone can work. It's very hard to

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Speaker 1: actually work on the iOS operating system. You gotta go

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Speaker 1: get a job at or at Apple. Uh. But with bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: you you can work on the bitcoin core project. And

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Speaker 1: I've had a few students make small changes to it

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Speaker 1: because the codes there and if you notice some bug,

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Speaker 1: you can just kind of update it and eventually your

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Speaker 1: change will get in if it's a good change, hopefully,

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Speaker 1: And so so yeah, that's the distinction is you have

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Speaker 1: the people who are working on the actual rules. Well

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Speaker 1: there's there's sort of like three pieces. There's the people

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Speaker 1: who work on the software that like executes the rules,

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Speaker 1: the people that build applications on top of it. But

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Speaker 1: then also like the one group that I don't really

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Speaker 1: mention is the researchers. They're the ones that think about

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Speaker 1: how the rules should change. Right, so segue for example,

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Speaker 1: was this uh way that the rules changed and uh

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Speaker 1: it took a ton of thought, and this is a

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Speaker 1: change in the abstract rules of bitcoin, not any piece

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Speaker 1: of software that executes those rules. So it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like the three different pieces. And I focus more on

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Speaker 1: the application development. But I think most, or I would

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Speaker 1: say many people who get in involved in bitcoin probably

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Speaker 1: start on the application side, like how can I play

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Speaker 1: with bitcoin? Right? And as they get deeper, they might

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Speaker 1: move towards more of a protocol developer and sort of

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Speaker 1: the most advanced as a researcher, where you trying to

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Speaker 1: think about everything holistically and improve the whole beast. Sure,

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Speaker 1: but I think for easy comparison sake, I mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of people think about building apps for the iPhone

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Speaker 1: and the Android, but they're not thinking about trying to

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Speaker 1: build a new Android or go work with Android. They

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Speaker 1: just want to make an app for it. Yuh. But

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Speaker 1: I guess it's a little bit unique. Bitcoin is a

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Speaker 1: little b unique in a sense where it's open source,

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Speaker 1: so anybody could just build whatever they want on it, versus,

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Speaker 1: like you said before, like the Android iOS, those are

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Speaker 1: not open source, so you can't just build anything, right,

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Speaker 1: it has to be permissioned and within when it's the

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Speaker 1: other big difference that's so out of our Bitcoin is

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Speaker 1: that it's not like the open source is not just

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Speaker 1: that you can work on it, but it's so easy

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Speaker 1: to copy and make a copycat, right, Like trying to

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Speaker 1: make a copycat of Android is like absurd because it's

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Speaker 1: it's so hard to market it, right, But bitcoin, you know,

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Speaker 1: you make an alt coin and try to market it

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Speaker 1: to people, Well, it's it's very easy and you just

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Speaker 1: like light Excuse me, lightcoin took forty five minutes to create, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's it's it's one of the tough things

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Speaker 1: about bitcoin development is there's a huge in sign up

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Speaker 1: once people become sophisticated enough door with it to go

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Speaker 1: and copy it and compete with it. Uh, just the

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Speaker 1: one I like your point, but that's the one distinction

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Speaker 1: is it's like you get, it's just so easy to copy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then I've heard it. I've heard it said where

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Speaker 1: you know, because bitcoins open source and then you can

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Speaker 1: build whatever applications you want on them, and then you

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Speaker 1: could start building on top of like other applications. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of times these other applications may be open

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Speaker 1: source as well, and then it's almost like stacking legos,

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Speaker 1: so then you can kind of combine other applications to

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Speaker 1: make a new application kind of a thing. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was just playing with BTC bas server. That's the it's

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Speaker 1: a project. It's like a merchant processor that is self hosted.

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Speaker 1: You can uh, you know, for like ten five ten

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Speaker 1: bucks a month, you can run it and accept bitcoin

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Speaker 1: payments on your e commerce stores. It's like for my classes,

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Speaker 1: I accept payments in bitcoin using this, and you don't

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Speaker 1: have to trust a third party, which is really nice.

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Speaker 1: You actually hold the keys to the bitcoin yourself and

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Speaker 1: you run it on a computer that you control. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's sort of like goes along with the ethos

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Speaker 1: of bitcoin to uh do the verification yourself and not

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Speaker 1: trust third parties. And within this BTC pay server application,

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Speaker 1: there's all these little apps and so one of them

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Speaker 1: was one to like export your your invoices to quick books, right,

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Speaker 1: and so at this point these are both free, open

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Speaker 1: source products, but it is so you're starting to see

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Speaker 1: this sort of like stacking of uh. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it's the BBC PAS server has its own little app

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Speaker 1: store kind of inside, which is pretty cool. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: I think you're gonna see a lot more of that,

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Speaker 1: especially as uh you can create you can turn these

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Speaker 1: little projects into businesses as bitcoin becomes more popular, especially

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Speaker 1: if the developers continue to build stuff open source, right,

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Speaker 1: so BTC, paser ever built it open source, which allows

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Speaker 1: people to now start building on top of it. Um

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Speaker 1: I think I guess once people start trying to close

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Speaker 1: it off and keep a proprietary then maybe that slows

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Speaker 1: things down. Yeah, yeah, I mean you can definitely see that.

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Speaker 1: Like I guess the company like Costa Gems tends to

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Speaker 1: I guess they have some some some of it open source,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of quite a bit of its uh

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Speaker 1: close to uh. Some some of these companies are trying

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Speaker 1: to make it more like a walled garden, which always fine,

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Speaker 1: especially if it might be hard to like build on it,

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Speaker 1: but especially if you can audit the code. Uh like

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Speaker 1: if if as as a bitcoin user, you always want

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Speaker 1: to demand open source, not because you're gonna go and

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Speaker 1: read the code, but just because you can sort of

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Speaker 1: assume that a popular thing where the code is on

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Speaker 1: the internet is going to have some people like justin

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Speaker 1: over here, who's gonna migaul and trying to see if

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Speaker 1: there's something wrong with it. And if there is, tell

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Speaker 1: everybody and so that that that's the thing that's really

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Speaker 1: powerful about open sources that you can sort of the

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Speaker 1: more popular is you can assume more people are sort

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Speaker 1: of looking at it and they're trying to like attack

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Speaker 1: it and figure out ways to break it. So like

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Speaker 1: that's a nice thing about the Treads or the whole

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Speaker 1: firm where everything about it is is a pretty open store.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and it's been that way for about

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Speaker 1: four years. So uh, as your your average non technical

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Speaker 1: users should find some comfort in that fact that a

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Speaker 1: lot of these sort of like hacker types are competing

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Speaker 1: with each other to break the treads or and they

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Speaker 1: struggle to So that's that's a really nice thing, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so that's a good segue. I wanted to jump into

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Speaker 1: UM talking about security. So you mentioned COSA and then

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Speaker 1: obviously treads or UM. So at at the bit Block

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Speaker 1: Boom conference, you were talking about security and different types

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Speaker 1: of custody and wallets and whatnot, and I think you

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Speaker 1: you basically, I mean, I guess if you want to

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Speaker 1: break it down into two big buckets, you have self

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Speaker 1: custody and then you have someone else holding custody. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and then you have shades of that like a cosa

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Speaker 1: where there's like maybe some shared stuff, but you either

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Speaker 1: have someone do it for you or you do it yourself, right,

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Speaker 1: and then if you do it yourself, you have a

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Speaker 1: couple of different options. So what are your what are

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Speaker 1: your thoughts there? Yeah, so, uh, I guess the big

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Speaker 1: distinction is uh sort of about really owning bitcoin versus

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Speaker 1: having financial exposure to bitcoin. Right, So there's a number

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Speaker 1: of ways to get uh. To own bitcoin, you have

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Speaker 1: to you have to have control over a secret number.

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Speaker 1: Basically it's a huge secret number, like eighty decimal places,

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Speaker 1: and that having control over a certain secret number like that,

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Speaker 1: it's so big you can't guess it. It would take

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Speaker 1: the you know, the age of the universe to guess

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Speaker 1: and check whether you your guess was correct. That's the

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Speaker 1: security of a That's that's what it means to really

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Speaker 1: own bitcoin is to have control over one of these

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Speaker 1: secret numbers. And that's what a treasure's entire job is

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Speaker 1: to safely, generate, store, and interact with this big secret number. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's the cryptography and cryptocurrency. So so that's what it means.

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Speaker 1: Just to own bitcoin is to to control that number yourself.

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Speaker 1: But it's scary because uh, you know, if your software

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Speaker 1: has a problem, it might try to steal that number,

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Speaker 1: or uh, your software might not generate it in a

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Speaker 1: in a good way to make it sort of easily guessable.

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Speaker 1: So there's there's some pitfalls there. So on the other

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Speaker 1: side is financial exposure to bitcoin, right, and so when

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Speaker 1: you're getting financialists exposure to bitcoin, you don't have all

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Speaker 1: the benefits of like, let's say, being able to cross

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Speaker 1: a border with your bitcoin in your head. You know,

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Speaker 1: to memorize uh twenty four words and cross the border

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Speaker 1: with uh, with your net worth in your head. That's

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Speaker 1: like one of the most amazing things about bitcoin. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you don't you don't get the privacy benefits, you can't

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Speaker 1: transact with it, uh, number of other things that you know,

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Speaker 1: in the case of a government crackdown, you you you

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Speaker 1: you aren't sure you'll be able to keep your financial exposure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So so some of the ways you can get financial

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Speaker 1: exposure are you know some of these like products uh, like,

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Speaker 1: I mean the big one is by quote unquote buying

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Speaker 1: coins and starting them on an exchange. What you own

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Speaker 1: at that point is an iou you do not own bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: You own an IOU that represents bitcoin, and if the

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Speaker 1: exchange you're working with when completely insolvent tomorrow, you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: ever get those bitcoins. And this would happen in Mount

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Speaker 1: Docks for example. So these are people who had financial

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Speaker 1: exposure bitcoin but didn't own them, right, And a lot

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Speaker 1: of people think those exchanges are like banks, but they're not.

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Speaker 1: They're not. They're not insured. Yeah, well, and then even banks,

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Speaker 1: right like banks, uh, you know, they're insured up to

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Speaker 1: a point, but if the banks ever go completely insolvent,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna get all your money either or whatever.

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Speaker 1: The way I like to look at it is that

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Speaker 1: everything in life has risks, everything has trade offs, right,

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Speaker 1: and we always have to wait with those tradeoffs, and

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Speaker 1: those risks are and you know, just like in the

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Speaker 1: old days, maybe people kept cash at home and put

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Speaker 1: them in the mattress or put it in the walls.

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Speaker 1: But the risk with that is that you know, your

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Speaker 1: house burns down, someone steal as you, robs you whatever,

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Speaker 1: or you can put in the bank, but then the

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Speaker 1: risk is, I mean, what if the bank doesn't give

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Speaker 1: your money? And so today kind of the same trade off,

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Speaker 1: like I can custom my own bitcoin UM, but that

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Speaker 1: that carries risks if I do it wrong, if I

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Speaker 1: get hacked, if I lose my password. I could have

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Speaker 1: someone stored for me, which probably is does a better

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Speaker 1: job of security, So the security risk kind of goes away,

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Speaker 1: But then there's risks that maybe they don't give me

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Speaker 1: my money when I want it, or they go and

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Speaker 1: solve it. Like you said, yeah, you don't get all

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Speaker 1: the benefits of bitcoin if someone else, if you just

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Speaker 1: have this, It's like it's about that other people will

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Speaker 1: find these benefits compelling, but you yourself don't get the

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Speaker 1: benefits because you're you know, you're just using a third party. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so what are what do you think are I know

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Speaker 1: you've done quite an extensive review on a lot of

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Speaker 1: these different hardware wallets, UM and and and different ways

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Speaker 1: to secure it. So what do you think are like

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Speaker 1: the kind of the first steps that someone should make

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Speaker 1: that are pretty good without going to overboard. So my

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Speaker 1: point of view is that, uh, like when I think

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Speaker 1: back to when I first started to use these hardware

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Speaker 1: wallets and software wallets, and I think about all the

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Speaker 1: mistakes I made. One alarming thing is I was always

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Speaker 1: using real money, right Like I was, I was learning

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Speaker 1: how to use it with real money, and if I

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Speaker 1: made a mistake. I don't think I ever made a

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Speaker 1: real mistake. I got really close a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: but uh, you know, if I would have made a mistake,

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Speaker 1: I would have lost for money. And so the biggest

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Speaker 1: thing I think of is that if if you really

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Speaker 1: want to commit to learning how to use this asset

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Speaker 1: in a safe way, uh uh you know, to to

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Speaker 1: to basically have your own Swiss bank account in your pocket, right,

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Speaker 1: think that's what it is. Uh. If if you want that,

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Speaker 1: then you have to commit some uh time and energy

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Speaker 1: to learning. And the best way to learn is to

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Speaker 1: use bitcoins test network. It's called test net uh test

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Speaker 1: not is you is uh? And this is what we

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Speaker 1: do in my Huddle boot camp to class to teach

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Speaker 1: people some of these self custody fundamentals. Uh. Test ne

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Speaker 1: is a a clone of the Bitcoin network that is

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Speaker 1: intended to be used by software developers like myself when

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Speaker 1: we're building applications. And so every almost every wallet supports

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Speaker 1: test not because the developers want to test it when

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Speaker 1: they're you know, making changes. They want to test that

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Speaker 1: it works without having to risk grow money. But test

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Speaker 1: that has a is also very nice if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to learn how to use these products, because you can

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Speaker 1: screw up and not lose any money, which is fantastic.

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Speaker 1: But all the all the hardware wallts, all the software wall,

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Speaker 1: it's work exactly the same, whether using test net or

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Speaker 1: the real bitcoin network which we call main net. So

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Speaker 1: that's the big thing I would recommend is is, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, look at it as sort of like maybe

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Speaker 1: a couple of months process of learning and just start

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Speaker 1: uh downloading wallets and playing with them using bitcoins test

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Speaker 1: new And one of the important things I would practice

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Speaker 1: doing is practice like, uh, practice like losing the wallet. Right,

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Speaker 1: so all you have is your your your seed words. Right,

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Speaker 1: we have these like twelve or twenty four words that

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Speaker 1: represent that secret number I was referring to earlier. You

402
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Speaker 1: can practice like deleting the wall and figure out how

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Speaker 1: you can get those test not bitcoins back from this words. Right.

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Speaker 1: So you're so you're basically stimulating a disaster, right, so

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Speaker 1: you can sort of like simulate and uh practice going

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Speaker 1: through these sort of disaster scenarios and uh, that way,

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Speaker 1: if if you do this, you know everything that everything

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Speaker 1: that that that could go really wrong, and you've sort

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Speaker 1: of practiced how to, uh, how to recover from that,

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Speaker 1: and you know what what mistakes are fatal and which aren't, uh,

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Speaker 1: and you can do all this without ever risking row money.

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Speaker 1: And maybe you get halfway through and you say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is a't for me. I'm just gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: leave my coins with a third party. But I think

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Speaker 1: I think, uh, I think, you know, we need to

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Speaker 1: look at like, you know, I think different people need

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Speaker 1: different levels of security. So I mean, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to secure hunt it dollars with a bitcoin, your security

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Speaker 1: protocol is gonna be a lot different than if you're

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Speaker 1: trying to secure a million or ten million or a

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Speaker 1: hundred million, and so um, you know, maybe maybe if

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Speaker 1: you're only dealing with a hundred bucks or a couple

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Speaker 1: hundred bucks, maybe you don't need to go through all that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe just put it on a truas or it might

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Speaker 1: be might be might be good what putting on a

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Speaker 1: trust or at that point it's too expensive because that's

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Speaker 1: just where as much as your coins are worth. That's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think, yeah, so that's a

429
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: good point. You know, you get started with just it's

430
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the idea of good off zero

431
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 1: with uh, you know we tell people, we tell no

432
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: connors like good off zero at least have like a

433
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: dollar worth of it kind what you know, Yeah, it's

434
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: not rational to have zero dollars a bitcoin. You should

435
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: at least have like one dollar. Uh and what we

436
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,560
Speaker 1: same way if you own some maybe maybe just move

437
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: a couple of your coins off in exchange, a couple,

438
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 1: you know, small percentage of your coins often exchange and

439
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,479
Speaker 1: practice holding that yourself. Yeah, So do you think it's

440
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: kind of like we have like heart we have we

441
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: have software wallets or hot wallets, right that we could

442
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: download from the app store, and there's dozens of those. Probably.

443
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 1: Then we have like a hardware wallet whould be like

444
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 1: a treas er ledge or cold coin, which is an

445
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: actual like a hardware like USB device that I could

446
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,200
Speaker 1: store it on and that so that like maybe level

447
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: one is like just downloading an app and storing it

448
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: in there. I mean there's so many today, Um, some

449
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: that make it super easy to send your bitcoin, like

450
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: drop it, um, you know, ones that pay you back

451
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: like Glali, and then there's you know, all kinds of

452
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: other ones. Do you do you mess around with those

453
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: at all? Or do you think that's just you should

454
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: probably skip right past that and go right to a

455
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: hardware wallet. I I, uh, I just find Dusktop apps

456
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 1: easier to use, honestly. Uh So, I I got started

457
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: using Electron because Electron is quite easy to use. But

458
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 1: I think the idea of starting with a mobile app.

459
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 1: But one nice thing about mobile apps is you can

460
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: like scan QR codes much easier, so like you never

461
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 1: have to worry about typing it in wrong. You just

462
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: scan the QR code and you know, you it's a

463
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: little it's a little bit more ergonomic. So yeah, either

464
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: a Dusktop software app or a software wallet or a

465
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: mobile app are great places to start. And you know,

466
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,280
Speaker 1: you just practice sending sending back and forth. I mean,

467
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: like one of the other things you can sort of

468
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: learn about is just like the different fees you pay.

469
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: I think most people, uh, you know, after being in

470
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 1: bitcoin for like a year, they realized that you don't

471
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if your transaction confirms and twenty minutes

472
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: or not. Most of the time. Most of the time

473
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: that confirms in a week, you're happy. Uh, And so

474
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: you you know, you learn to pay a much slower fee.

475
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: At a certain point you can pay you know. Uh yeah,

476
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,239
Speaker 1: I think many of us overpay on the fees on

477
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: our fees quite substantially. So it's like, you know, just

478
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: to start start playing with a little dials that the

479
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: software wallet's using. I think. Yeah, I think one of

480
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 1: the best ways to understand bitcoin is to just play

481
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: around with it and try to figure out, you know,

482
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: after you're after your transaction is created, you know, go

483
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: and put that I D into maybe block stream dot inflows,

484
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: block explorer, uh and and go try to look at

485
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: it and understand what the block explorers telling you. You know,

486
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: like your transactions are much more interesting than like a

487
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,199
Speaker 1: transaction in the abstract, so you can sort of like

488
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: look at yours and try to understand what's actually going

489
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,719
Speaker 1: on there, and you'll see some terms you don't recognize.

490
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: Google those. I think that's one of the best ways

491
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: to learn about that point from from the beginner's point

492
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: of view. Yeah, Now, what about when you're using a

493
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: hardware wallet like a treasure or a ledger, when you're

494
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: doing those transaction and I mean, I guess you have

495
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: to log onto their website connect your wallet, and so

496
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: then it's running all those transactions through their servers, right

497
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: and and maybe the next step would then be to

498
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: use those hardware wallets, but then how the transactions run

499
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: through your own server? Yeah, so this is a tricky Uh,

500
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: this is something I'm actually working on right now. Uh So, Yeah.

501
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 1: The default way is that you're using apps that they

502
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: make for you, and so the trader off there is privacy.

503
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: They will know every transaction you ever did, and you

504
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: should probably assume that they're going to sell that at

505
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: some point information because it's very valuable. Uh you know,

506
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: maybe they won't, but you should probably assume that they will.

507
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: So if you care about your privacy and you don't

508
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: want basically, uh you don't want uh it to be

509
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: public knowledge which coins you own, then you'll probably want

510
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: to figure out a way to connect to your own

511
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: node of some sort. And the the easiest way to

512
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: do that in out is using the electrom wallet and

513
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: something called electron Personal server. This is uh it's basically

514
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: something that can connect Electrome to your own full node.

515
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 1: And this is not really for non technical users, honestly,

516
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: it's and even I don't really enjoy doing it. Uh,

517
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: it's it's like a glue to to connect these two

518
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: different programs because electrom knows how to work with harder

519
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: wallets and uh, but it does it generally. It talks

520
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: to uh third party servers which are are probably also

521
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: leaking your privacy. This is one of the things. The

522
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: deeper you go down the rabbit hole, you you you

523
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 1: learn about all these different places where privacy is leaked.

524
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: That's sort of like a lot of the advanced usage

525
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 1: a bitcoin is around using it without leaking your privacy.

526
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: And so there's a new class of things that user

527
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: interfaces that will connect directly to bitcoin corps. And I'm

528
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: working on one called Junction. I hope to release it

529
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: either tonight or tomorrow. I made like one release a

530
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: week or two ago. But I'm making a desktop app

531
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: uh and so that would connect directly to your own

532
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: full node uh full note meaning like your bitcoin core

533
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: running and it and it goes and verifies every one

534
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: of the transactions, so I can see what you what

535
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: your balances are. Uh. So so there's a new class

536
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: of this, like an interface that someone could use to

537
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: connect to their their full node much easier. Yep. So

538
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: so it's it's an interface to to do uh. It's

539
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: an interface that connects hardware wallets to bitcoin core, so

540
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: you can use your hardware wallet together with bitcoin core

541
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: and UH you can also use your hardware wallet and

542
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: a multi sig set up. So this is the idea

543
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: with multi sake is you can have multiple keys control

544
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: your bitcoins. You can basically split your bitcoin up to

545
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: be controlled by let's say three different of these secret numbers,

546
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,959
Speaker 1: and you only need two of them to participate in

547
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 1: order to move your coins. And so the beauty of

548
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 1: this is that it removes a single point of failure.

549
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: Something you could just totally lose one of those, uh

550
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: and you'd still be able to recover your funds because

551
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: as long as two of them still remain. Uh. So

552
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: this is this is the focus of my junction project.

553
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: Had I had a long talk with Ryan McDonald from

554
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: a COSA at at at the bit block Boom conference

555
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: and they offer you know, multi stake two or three

556
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: or three or five, and you know it's like, if

557
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: you have a hard enough time keeping track of one key,

558
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: does having three keys just complicate things? Like now you

559
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: have three points of failure? Well, I mean, yeah, there's uh,

560
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: there's Uh, well, you don't have three points of failor

561
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: because if any of them, any one of them can

562
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: fail and you're still okay. Uh there, I mean there's

563
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: sort of a yeah, there's sort of an interesting question here, Like,

564
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, another thing some people do is they, you know,

565
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: make cop you know, have you'll have like split your

566
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 1: coins between five different wallets or you know, three different wallets,

567
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: let's say, and uh and you know, try to treat

568
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: these separately. And so the nice thing about that is

569
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 1: if you lose one of them, yeah, you lose that

570
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: whole wall, but you don't lose all your coins, right,

571
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: so but you know, uh so, so there's sort of

572
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 1: a there's sort of a debate between whether you should

573
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: sort of us have a couple of different storage strategies.

574
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: None of them are perfect, but you might lose some coins,

575
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: but you'll you'll minimize the chance you lose all your coins.

576
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: The other point of view is that you should really

577
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort uh into one storage strategy,

578
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: make it as good as you can, and put all

579
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: your coins in there, uh and just really make sure

580
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: that that doesn't fail. And that's the point of view

581
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: I would tend to go with but that's maybe more

582
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: because I'm an advanced user. Yeah, I go with the

583
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: option one personally, as as my as I've grown, I've

584
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: added more hardware wallets, and I think maybe that's because, um,

585
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: I'm I'm afraid of either hardware failure or like hacking.

586
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: So if somehow it got one got hacked or one failed,

587
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: um I only lose a fraction as opposed to all

588
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: of it. Yep. Yeah. So the the the idea with

589
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: hardware wallets, just to kind of back up a little bit,

590
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: is that you know, like let's say, like right now,

591
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: no one's really trying to hack your bitcoin because anybody

592
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: who knows about bitcoin uh and is a is a

593
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: nasty person, is probably focused on other scams, right. They're

594
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: probably trying to make these some of these uh kind

595
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: of scamming I C O S or something where that

596
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: you know there's nothing there and they're just trying to

597
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: sell you vaporware. Uh, and so that's sort of a

598
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: scam is beginning to go away. Uh. Maybe they're doing

599
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: like ransom attacks right where they just shut your computer

600
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: down and demand bitcoin stuff like that. But eventually if

601
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: bitcoin s price goes up a lot more, uh A

602
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: lot of these easier scams are going to go away,

603
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: and the only scam that remains is actually taking people's

604
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: bitcoin and so uh, Like there's a lot of ways that, like,

605
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: if you have a wallet on your phone or your computer,

606
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways that a wallet like this

607
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: could be just could be compromised. Like one of the

608
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: big ones is, let's say, uh, viruses and stall all

609
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: on your desktop. That is a key logger. It logs

610
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: every key stroke you have, and so it waits until

611
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: it sees key strokes that you know represent the password

612
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: to your to your account or your your seed or something. Uh,

613
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: it can just go and and steal that run off

614
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: and steal your coins. Uh uh. Let's like, you know,

615
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: there's a number of ways that h a a uh

616
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: program running on a desktop computer can be compromised. The

617
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: reason why we like harder walltz is that they're very simple. Uh.

618
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: They're like the simplest possible computing environment that can generate, store,

619
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: and interact with a Bitcoin private key. And so just

620
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: because the environment is so simple, there's like less places

621
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: for ghosts t hide, so to speak. Right, there's less

622
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: places for a virus to pop out of the woodwork. Uh.

623
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: And they only communicate They attempt to only communicate with

624
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: the rest of the world over a very simple channel

625
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: the USB wire or in some cases like a micros

626
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: D card or a QR code. Uh. They attempt to

627
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: only communicate over to the rest of the world over

628
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: the simple interface. Uh. And it's just like reduces the

629
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: chances that they, like your normal computer is communicating with

630
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: the world to the internet, maybe through your like you know, uh,

631
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: like three different ways to plug stuff into it. There's

632
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: just all kinds of ways that it can connect to

633
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: the external world and that a virus can get inside.

634
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: So that's the big value proposition of a hardware wallet.

635
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: Got it, And and unless somebody actually takes physical control

636
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: over it, it's pretty much impossible and then be hacked. Uh,

637
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: it's not impossible. Like there are versions there, there are

638
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: like people have hacked hardware wallets, uh remotely. I can

639
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: think of like two of them. Two verb two things.

640
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: Like one of the scary things is if if somebody

641
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: installs a virus on your desktop computer that's connected to

642
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: the internet, uh, and they can send if there's some

643
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: imperfection and how the USB communication works, Like there have

644
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: been examples where you could extract the bitcoin seed from

645
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: the device without actually having physical control atlas. But the

646
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: thing is these are all demonstrated in the lab by researchers,

647
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: and none of these my knowledge I've ever been exploited

648
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: in the wild. So yeah, in general, the rule is

649
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: they need physical access to the device in order to

650
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: get your your key off of it. Yeah. So so

651
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 1: then you feel I mean, and you, like I said,

652
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: you've done some research on this, I've seen seen your work.

653
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: But I mean, so you feel that overall, like a

654
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: basic hardware walle it is probably good enough security for

655
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: the average person. Um if they and then and then

656
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: maybe to step it up is then to start trying

657
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: to figure out how to communicate with their own server. Yeah,

658
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it sort of depends what your goals are.

659
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: If you really want, like some people really need, uh

660
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, privacy, uh, And so just like think about

661
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: that's one of the big things, like how who do

662
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: I care if everyone in the if the government or

663
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: if uh some foreign power or something or like some

664
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: some like do I care if everyone knows which coins

665
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: I own? Right, That's like one the first questions you

666
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: should ask, uh, and if if you if you do

667
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: really care about that, then you're gonna need to do

668
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: a lot more research because it's it's that's parts tough. Uh.

669
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: But for the average person, if if you don't really

670
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: care about that, uh, then yeah, just using a harder

671
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: wall with treads ors website or ledgers app, it's pretty good.

672
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: And the one caveat is just make sure you have

673
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: backups of your seed because like most people think, Like

674
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: when I encounter the Harvard Wall, I thought, Okay, I

675
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: just need to keep track of this harder wallet, and uh,

676
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: you get into situations we were talking about this earlier

677
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: where you need to upgrade the software. It's called firmware

678
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: on the harder wallet, and uh, this is scary because

679
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: if if that goes wrong, it can destroy your private key,

680
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: it can destroy your bitcoins. You need a backup, right,

681
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: And I think this is this is one of the

682
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: tough things about uh, Like this is one thing that's

683
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people in neglect. I almost screwed this

684
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: up the first time I attempted to do a harder wallet.

685
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: Just make sure you have backups. You can have like

686
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: redundant copies of the back up and also hardware walts,

687
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, in a fire or something that's going to

688
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: be lost. You can also explore storing these backups and

689
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,959
Speaker 1: something that might be a little more you know, fire

690
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: resistant paper or steel or something. But you know, you

691
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: don't go to overboard like a lot. I think a

692
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: lot of people get caught up and try to optimize

693
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: it so much that, like, you know, they're there, that

694
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: they try to find some strategy that could like survive

695
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: World War three, but then they never figured out and

696
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: so they leave their coins in something that's a lot

697
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: less optimal. Right, So so yeah, simplicity is the enemy

698
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: of security. So you want something that's simple and that

699
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: like five years down the road, when you forget how

700
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: it worked, you can still get into it and move

701
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: the coins. I love that quote. Simplicity is the enemy

702
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: of security or no, no, complexity is the enemy of security.

703
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: Sorry I got the wrong. Complexity is the enemy of security.

704
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: Simplicity is the the ally of security. Complexity is the

705
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 1: enemy of security because if you're overcomplex over your own

706
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: skill level, you actually do yourself more harm than good.

707
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: There was a talk that Andreas on top of this

708
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: did uh that I saw where you basically kind of

709
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: said the same thing and I said, what's what's the

710
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: best security protocol? And it's like it depends on you, Like, yeah,

711
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: you need to have the best one that's that's up

712
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: to your technical standards. If you go over, then you

713
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: put yourself in more risk, right, So I guess that's

714
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: kind of and that's why I like, I mean, maybe

715
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: I jumped aground a little bit talking about this like

716
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: practicing on testing up, but that's where I really like

717
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: this point of view, like uh, and this is this

718
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: is for people who aren't going to store more. But

719
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: the nice thing about like playing around with some of

720
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: these things with that with either along you know, you

721
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: could also use as a normal bitcoint but just very

722
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: small amounts. But you can play around until you get

723
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: to the point where you're like, okay, this is above

724
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: my head, right, like this is where I can't go

725
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: further right, and and then like you can just by

726
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: playing around and sort of reaching it's okay, I can't

727
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: do much more than this without help, and then you

728
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: know that's where you can say, okay, well this is

729
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: my area I feel comfortable with, right uh. And you

730
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: can do that by just like practicing playing around with

731
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 1: small amounts and see where it starts to get a

732
00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: little sketchy and well you don't understand everything that's going on. Yeah, yeah,

733
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: well good stuff. I mean, like like you talked about

734
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: the story, I mean I ran to the same problem.

735
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: I plugged in a wallet and it needed a firm

736
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: more update and I couldn't find the backup phrase because

737
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: of whatever reason. And it was it was a scary situation.

738
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 1: Luckily I got out of it. But it's definitely like

739
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: a wake up call. We're like, wow, that was a

740
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: close call. I could have lost everything. I need to

741
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: do better next time, and hopefully everybody can just stay

742
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: out of that trouble from the first place. Which you

743
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: really wanted some kind of a playbook, right, Like imagine

744
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: like picture yourself in five years, three years, two years,

745
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: opening up your or whatever, your little treasure box, right

746
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: and you see this like harder wall. You forget how

747
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: it even works or something. These words you don't know

748
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: what they mean. You really want some instructions or something

749
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: in there. It's kind of described how to uh, how

750
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: to uh what to do? You problem is then it

751
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: would be a would be robber gets that and they

752
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: know what to do. That's that's also true and everything

753
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: has these like tradeouts. I think of it, you know,

754
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: I kind of think of it sometimes like in the

755
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: in the old West days or they maybe during the

756
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: gold rush, right, they would go bury their gold and

757
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,200
Speaker 1: they'd make a map to it, right, and like the

758
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: map was like they're private key kind of a thing, right,

759
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: only they had the map and like that was where

760
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: the gold was, um and and it's kind of like that,

761
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, then where do you keep that map?

762
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: And then how secure is that map? Right? And and uh,

763
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: kind of the same age old problem that we have

764
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 1: today a couple hundred years later. And I mean another

765
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: way to think, Another way I think about this is that, like,

766
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: you know, if you're really bullish on bitcoin, if you

767
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: really think it's it's going to work, there's like a

768
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: number of ways you can bet on it, right, And

769
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: one of them is to just buy the asset. But

770
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: you know, not everyone has a lot of extra capital

771
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: sitting around to buy it, or to buy more than

772
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: they have now, like maybe your max out you don't

773
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: want to expose yourself more financially. Well, there's other ways

774
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: you can sort of bet on it too, and I

775
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: think one of the best ways, but there's two like

776
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: ways I try to help people bet on At first, like,

777
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: you know, you can learn to do programming, uh, Like

778
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: these bitcoin programming skills are going to be massively in

779
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: demand if the world moves to this is our money.

780
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: Another way is to just learn, like slowly learn about security.

781
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: Right if the war, if private keys become something that

782
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: everybody sort of understands and interacts with, these these sort

783
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: of operational security information and security skills are gonna be

784
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: really useful, uh, And they take time to learn, so

785
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: you can so you can sort of view this as

786
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: like an investment, and it actually has a bet on bitcoin, right, like,

787
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 1: if if bitcoin does well, you're gonna see a significant

788
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: payoff from learning the stuff. Yeah. I mean basically, just

789
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: like you would put your money in hoping that it's

790
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: worth more in the future, but like why not put

791
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: your time in hoping your time is worth more in

792
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: the future. So exactly, Yeah, either one is a bet

793
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: on the future. I like that, and they're different bets. Yeah,

794
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: that's a great point. That will that will wrap it

795
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: up on, which I think brings us right back to

796
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: um the kind of things that you're teaching, right, teaching

797
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: people to code and teaching people to build applications. So, um,

798
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: I'll definitely make sure that we link up to that

799
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: in the show notes for anybody listening. Um. But I

800
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: just love that, right, Like, yeah, you don't have to

801
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: just put your money in, put your time in, put

802
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: your skills in, um, and we can all work to

803
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of build this thing up together in our own

804
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: unique ways. Take it slow too. You know a lot

805
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: of this stuff. It's like, you know, you look at

806
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: bitcoin is like this long term project, right, don't don't

807
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: be in a hurry trying to figure out how to

808
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: use it, how to you know, how to work with it.

809
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: It's like I think a lot of times, just take

810
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: your time. This is like a long project, right, We're not.

811
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: It's not a race, it's not a sprint. Cool all right,

812
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: justin well, good stuff. UM. Like I said, I'm gonna

813
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: link to that stuff down there so people can follow

814
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: up on that. And I appreciate your time and teaching

815
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: us a little bit about security. Thanks a lot, Mark,

816
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: Take it easy. Hey, if you like this episode of

817
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors podcast, please help us take this to

818
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: the top of the podcast charts. Just please do me

819
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: a favor and rate review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds

820
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: to just leave a quick review goes a long way

821
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: in helping us reach more people and disrupt more markets.

822
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: I really you, show you listening and I'll see you

823
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: next time on the Market Instructor's podcast M