WEBVTT - Assault, Harassment and Lower Pay: Women in the Gig Economy 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.320 Late one night in June, Jody was in her car 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.879 driving down a long wooded road in southern Maine. Jodi 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.960 Paglioco drives for Uber and left. She had a passenger 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.279 in the front seat. She picked him up from a 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.119 bar in town and was taking him home. She says 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.560 he seemed drunk. The road was dark and there was 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:28.280 nobody around. Jody was getting uncomfortable, and he made a 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.239 joke about not meaning a serial killer. But then he 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.040 started talking about sexual stuff and everything, and all I 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.680 could think of what am I going to do if 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.120 he does anything else, or if he tried to grab 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:47.800 me or touch me. She wanted to let him out 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:49.879 of the car right then and there, but she had 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:52.920 to drive to a safe location. I ended up getting 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.280 him to the front gates of his place. I told 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.520 him it was time for him to get out, and 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:00.720 I told him I wasn't driving him need for alert. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.480 The man got out of the car and left. Jody 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.080 says she was relieved that nothing else happened to her 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:10.400 that night, but it left her scared and shaken, and 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.080 then shortly after she had another incident with a passenger. 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:17.920 You know, I thought the car and everything, doors are unlocked, 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.520 he opens the door and then he reaches and tries 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:28.640 to grab me and kissed me. So you've only been 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.480 driving for six months. How many times do you think 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.440 you've been put in an uncomfortable or inappropriate situation like that? 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:40.480 I think she's um. I got almost a thousand rides 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.440 under my belt between Uber and Left. As much as 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.279 I hate to say it, I would say probably about 0:01:47.280 --> 0:02:01.040 two vos. Hi, I'm Brad Stone and I'm Selena Wang. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.640 And this week on Decrypted, we're exploring the gender dynamics 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.920 of the gig economy. These jobs were supposed to help 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:11.400 level the playing field in the modern economy, offering away, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.400 for example, for mother's juggling childcare responsibilities to work with 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.760 flexible hours, and while that promise of flexibility is what 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.600 drew them in, many women like Jody who drive for 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.560 services like Uber and Left say they frequently encountered harassment, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.840 even assault by male passengers, and that those conditions have 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.720 in turn put them out a disadvantage to mail drivers. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:35.760 Later in the episode will dive deep into what the 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:39.040 economic research says about all this and what Uber and 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:54.799 Left are doing in response. Stay with us Selena over 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.040 the past few weeks, You've been talking to quite a 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.919 few women in the gig economy. So tell us about Joe, 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.200 who we heard from at the top of the show. So, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.200 Jody's thirty eight years old, grew up in Arizona and 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.320 has an associates degree. She's divorced with two kids. About 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.400 four years ago, her daughter, who was seventeen at the time, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.919 was in a terrible accident that paralyzed her from waist down. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.640 Last year, Jody moved to Maine to be closer to 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:22.160 where her daughter will be getting medical treatment. And since 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.280 it's not exactly the easiest thing getting a job out here, 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.360 and especially since I've spent the majority of my marriage 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.160 at home raising kids. I also have a seventeen year 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.560 old son as well, and so yeah, I came out 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:41.960 here and decided to do the thing. Jody typically drives 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.040 that night from eight pm to three am, times when 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.480 she says she can make the most money. A lot 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:50.040 of her passengers are going home from bars and events. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.240 I do try and sing in at least eight hours 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.000 a day, so that way, it's kind of like a 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.560 full time job for me. I met Jody in a 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.120 private Facebook group for mail lift and Uber drivers The 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.840 group has almost ten thousand members. It's a support group 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.800 where women ask questions, give advice, and share their experiences 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:14.080 driving on the platform, both positive and negative. Now, there's 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.640 many reasons why women might decide to become Lift or 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.479 Uber drivers, but one that I kept hearing how to 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.160 do with childcare. A lot of the women I spoke 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.080 to were mothers. I just needed to make a little 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.000 bit of extra money and I didn't have to find 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.200 childcare if I like just I mean, they're not going 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.280 to the restaurant's not going to judge you for having 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.800 a baby on your hip. That's Hannah Mentor. She lives 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.120 in Savannah, Georgia. She's twenty four and a single mother 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.360 of two kids. She started doing food delivery part time 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.520 to supplement her income, designing things like T shirts that 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:48.480 she sells on Etsy. And then when you drop off 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.880 with Uber, the majority of the time they're walking up 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:52.800 to the car and grabbing it from you. So I 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.680 never had to worry about someone watching my kid because 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.960 he was right there with me. You know. After a while, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.280 Hannah realized she could make more me by driving passengers 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:05.360 for Uber and Lift, so I started branching out. Even 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.839 though it's a little bit scary to drive strangers in 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.960 your car. I slowly branded out into Uber and Lifts, 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.159 and since the money was just gotten much better. But 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.400 driving for Uber and Lift came but a whole new 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.279 set of risks that Hannah mostly didn't encounter while she 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.560 was delivering food. If you're just dropping off food, you 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.080 don't spend much time with the customers. It's it's pretty 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.280 in and out. They don't really have the time to 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.440 get to a point where they can do something inappropriate 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.719 or something uncomfortable. Whereas with Uber and Lift, the passenger 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.120 is alone with you for at least several minutes. That's 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.280 enough time for things to get weird. For example, just 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.760 days before I spoke with Hannah at the end of November, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:48.760 she picked up a man who she said was drunk. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:54.000 It slowly progressed to him asking about my love life 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.960 and then telling me about his girlfriend of a month, 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:02.080 and then him well but surely like trying to ask 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.599 about what things I was into in the bedroom. And 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.680 I finally got him to his destination, and when he 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:09.680 tried when he went to get out of the car, 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:11.520 and of course I'm relieved that he's getting out of 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:14.000 my car at this point, um, he tried to like 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.920 kiss my hand. And this kind of experience isn't unusual. 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:21.680 Every day that I drive, every night that I drive, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.479 there is at least one questionable experience. I hate to 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.560 be the person that's like, I'm scared, but yeah, there's 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.000 always a fear of having the wrong person get into 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:33.640 your car, or someone that is not respectful, or someone 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:40.840 that is completely drunk and just does not care. As 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.880 I got deeper into reporting, I noticed that it wasn't 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:47.880 just that these women had an uncomfortable experience. These experiences 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:51.040 led to real consequences. A lot of the women said 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.279 that after a bad situation like the one we heard 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.240 from from Hannah, they turned off the app and go home, 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.480 even though they were planning on driving for longer. Some 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.479 women told me it took them even a few days 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:03.960 before they felt like driving again. Like Jody, who we 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.440 heard from at the start of the show, There's been 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.400 a few times where I've just been like I'm done, 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.920 I'm going to stop doing this. I gotta stop for 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:17.680 the day because I'm like on edge because I'm thinking, okay, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.600 what happened. As the next guy that comes in my 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.320 car drives this stuff. You know, I'm driving at night, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.960 taking people home from the bars and everything, and you 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.040 know it's just I'm I have to take a break 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.640 because I have to get back into, you know, a 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.440 different mindset than what those other people leave me in. 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.760 Turning off the app, even for just a few days, 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.760 definitely results in lost income. Going back to Hannah, the 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.400 twenty four year old in Savannah, she told me it's 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.480 because of those experiences that she isn't earning more money 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.960 by driving more hours. Right now, she only drives between 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.679 six and ten hours a week. I think the only 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.640 thing keeping me from doing that with the it's terrible 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.120 experiences that will turn you off from driving for a 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.560 couple of days, or not even necessarily terrible, just just uncomfortable. 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.239 So these are women who were driving in the first 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.400 place because they're looking for additional income, but now because 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.600 of an experience that made them feel uncomfortable or in safe, 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.600 they're not driving as much. And that means they're missing 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.920 out on the flexibility and opportunity of the gig economy. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:35.000 And that's one of the biggest economic trends of this decade. Okay, 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.400 so so far, Selena, we've heard from Jody and Maine 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.080 and Hannah and Georgia about their experiences in the gig economy, 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.360 and many more women I spoke to for this story 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.920 seemed to have gone through similar experiences and made similar observations. Right, 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.000 and if one of the big promises of work in 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.880 the gig economy is that it suits women and men equally, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:55.679 and you know, maybe even has advantages for women who 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.320 might value the flexibility so they could juggle work and 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:02.800 family responsibilities, this kind of widespread harassment does seem to 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.000 undermine the entire promise of the job. And the thing is, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.640 it's not just the anecdotal evidence that's pointing to these disparities. 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.760 Economists are looking at it too. The labor economists at 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.080 Stanford called Paul Oyer co author to study published earlier 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.800 this year titled the Gender Earnings Gap in the Gig Economy. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.439 He worked on it with two other economics professors, as 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.320 well as Uber's chief economist and Uber's data scientist at 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.040 the time, what we are very interested in in the 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.440 gig economy initially was and still are interested in us 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:36.079 is it seems like a very good place, relatively speaking, 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.920 for women because they might value the flexibility of choosing 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.760 their own hours more. Paul worked with Uber to study 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.520 a sample of more than one million drivers in the 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:51.120 US between January and March. They found that men earned 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:55.720 approximately seven percent more than women. So what explains that difference? 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.120 So there were three big factors. One was a difference 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:02.040 in driving speed. On average, men drive two point two 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.960 percent faster than women, so they finished trips at a 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:09.800 faster rate, which enlarges the pay gap. It's ironic and 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.880 perhaps misdirected that the men are being compensated for driving 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:17.120 faster right than perhaps less safely. We don't know for 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.000 sure in the data, but it's certainly boosting their earnings. Okay, 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.520 So what was the second factor. The second factor was 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.360 the difference in where male and female drivers were picking 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:31.760 up their passengers. One thing that works against women as 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.120 Uber drivers is they live in neighborhoods and artists lucrative, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.520 and therefore they end up driving in neighborhoods at artists lucrative. Okay, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.480 I don't understand this. Break this down a little bit. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.560 Why is that The data doesn't point to exactly why, 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.200 but it did show that women Uber drivers tended to 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.640 live in lower income neighborhoods, which means that the areas 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.480 they're driving in don't earn them as much money. And 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.960 the research also found that men were more willing to 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.760 pick up people in neighborhoods with higher crime rates and 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.200 with more drinking establishments. Okay, and what's the last factor 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.640 that might explain the pay gap? The third factor was experienced, So, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.839 like any profession, the more experienced someone has, the more 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.679 they make. And Paul found that on average, men were 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.200 driving longer hours per week and they were also less 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.960 likely to stop driving for Uber altogether, and that meant 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.200 they were accumulating more experience as Uber drivers, like learning 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.160 when and where to drive and how to strategically cancel 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:30.200 and accept trips that allowed them to earn higher rates 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.720 on the platform. Economists call that human capital. Yeah, and 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:37.000 that reminds me of what Jody and Hannah told us earlier, 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.120 how they would stop driving for the night or even 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:42.160 a few days after they had a bad experience. They're 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.800 not only earning less because they're working fewer hours, but 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.000 over time, they're missing out on the experiences so that 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.600 they can earn more per hour to begin with, right, 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:55.000 And that seemed to be paulse hunch too. So, um, 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.319 there's some other things going on on this platform that 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:02.200 make it more attractive for men for women. UM, I 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.440 don't you know. I don't know if women don't feel us. 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:06.800 I can't speak to this. I don't see that data. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.319 But you know, you could imagine they don't feel it's safe. 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.000 You could imagine. Paul's big conclusion was this, even though 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.160 it's great that these big economy jobs offer flexible work 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.040 arrangements for women, that flexibility on its own isn't enough 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.439 to close the gap between what women earn and what 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:33.360 men earn. So Selena, I guess the next question is 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.000 what are Uber and Left doing to tackle this well. 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.160 First of all, Uber and Left both allowed drivers to 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.280 report incidents in the app or through call line. For example, 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.560 in that story we heard from Jody at the beginning, 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.319 where a man was making her uncomfortable on a night drive. 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.640 She reported that to Uber afterwards, and she told me 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:54.960 that she's reported many many other incidents for being solicited 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:58.079 for sex or for drugs. And what happens after a 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.760 driver reports someone Joe He has said that in the 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.040 past when she's made a report, the company told her 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.960 she wouldn't be paired with the person again, and supposedly 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:11.280 they will kick them off the flat, they'll investigate. It 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.920 is what they always tell me, and usually I don't 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.720 hear anything else from that except for you you won't 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:22.280 be paired from with them again. However, I have ran 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.120 into those people that I've been told I won't be 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.280 paired with again, and still seeing them ordering Uber rides 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.320 being picked up by other Uber drivers. Do you think 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:37.880 Uber and Lift do enough to help women who are 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:43.240 put in situations like this? Absolutely not. I don't. I 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.560 really wholeheartedly believe that they've done slowly, and I find 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:49.360 this to be outrageous. I mean, don't you think that 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.400 there should be just a zero tolerance policy that these 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:56.040 apps have towards passengers who act this way? Well, certainly, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.040 the sentiment from the women I spoke to is that 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.960 there's a very high bar for conduct it comes to drivers, 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.880 but for passengers, since they want as many writers as possible, 0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:05.760 the bar is pretty low, and you have to do 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.800 something pretty terrible to get permanently. But in this case, 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.240 the customer is not always right exactly. And I mean, 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.240 even though Jodie has reported a lot of these incidents, 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.000 many women don't. A lot of the ones I spoke 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.560 to said they're worried that if they report their passengers 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:24.160 for grasping them or even just rebuffing their advances in person, 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.640 the passengers will retaliate by giving them a bad rating, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.480 report them for a serious infraction like drunk driving, and 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.239 that has serious consequences for the drivers, like getting suspended 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.320 from driving for multiple days while they conduct an investigation. 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.480 They could even get kicked off the platform altogether. And 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.160 many drivers depend on that income to pay their bills. 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:46.360 So what do Uber and Left have to say about 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.760 all this? So I spoke to Uber's head of safety 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.360 and consumer protection policy, Stephanie Bryson. One of the most 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:56.520 impactful things is that really the tone from the top 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.400 has changed. She's referring to Uber's change in management dar 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.640 Causra Shah. He became CEO last year, taking over from 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.880 Travis Kalinik, and when Dara came in, he did a 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:09.200 full review of the business, as you would expect any 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.640 CEO to do, and coming out of that review, he 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:15.520 said that we should commit to safety being the top 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.280 priority of the company, and the company has really fallen 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.720 in line behind that new safety features include this emergency 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.080 button that connects drivers to nine one one, and a 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.400 feature that makes it easier to share trips with friends 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:32.840 and family. The company also eliminated forced arbitration agreements for employees, riders, 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.880 and drivers who make sexual assault or harassment claims against 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.920 the company, So that means that instead of resolving any 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.280 legal claims in an arbitration hearing, people can actually take 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.400 those claims to court. Stephanie also explained to me how 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.800 Uber evaluates reports on inappropriate behavior from passengers. When a 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.440 report does come in, UH, that is, it goes into 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:59.240 our reporting flow and UH those instances that are safety 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.240 related are flagged to a special team, and that team 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:09.320 has received special training on trauma informed techniques as well 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:16.479 as other training on handling sensitive or high sensitivity incidents, 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:21.080 and it goes through a process of follow up. If 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:27.760 it is a high severity incident, we will usually undertaken 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:34.280 investigation two, speak with both sides of the encounter and 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.440 trying to discern the facts and then make make a 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.240 call on what next steps need to be taken. Finally, 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.040 I asked her about the fears from sub women drivers 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.960 that they feel like they were being given unfair ratings. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.800 If a driver feels that they were given an unfair 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.200 rating as some kind of retaliation, it's really important that 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.240 they report that to Uber so that we can take 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.480 steps to make that right. Lift has similar features to Uber, 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.080 though the company declined to offer anyone from the company 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.399 to speak with me for the podcast, but in a 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.080 written statement, the company said that safety is a top 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.600 priority and that harassment isn't tolerated, and that that kind 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.840 of behavior can lead to a permanent ban. Lift also 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.359 said that it's announcing fifteen new features by the end 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.640 of this year, many of which focus on driver's safety. Selena, 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.080 are they doing anything to tag all those more nuanced 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.720 forces at work that are keeping women in a disadvantage, 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.720 the kind of factors that Paul Oyle told us about, 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.800 like women driving slower and this searning less money, or 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.920 the higher turnover rates for female drivers. So I did 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.639 pose that question to Stephanie from Uber, and she mentioned 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.520 that they have used that to help shape product decisions 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.680 at a high level and they aren't done thinking about 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.280 the studies findings, but she didn't have any specifics to 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.840 tell me. So, Selena, is there anything that surprised you 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.119 about your reporting. I was definitely surprised by the frequency 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.840 of inappropriate experiences that these women faced. I mean, by 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.639 and large, these women enjoy the flexibility, they enjoy the money, 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.720 they chose to start on this platform, and they realize 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.480 that they have to deal with this issue and that 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:08.720 is just a nature of doing the job. And it's 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.640 almost so sort of reality check for them, and they 0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:13.560 feel like it's no choice, but it's a reality they 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.399 have to face, just like in day to day life. 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.200 What do you think about these companies potentially using technology 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.000 to solve one of the problems of their technology, So 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:25.720 for example, making it easier for female drivers at night 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.560 perhaps who might be feeling vulnerable in a in a 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:32.560 certain neighborhood to solicit rides only from female passengers or 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.720 female passengers, uh, from from just female drivers or like 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.720 you know, a group that includes at least one female 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.760 as are the companies talking about anything like that. So 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.280 that's actually something that d D the Uber of China, 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:49.560 tried so after several incidents where female passengers were allegedly 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.080 assaulted by male drivers, they only wanted to match women 0:18:53.520 --> 0:18:56.520 with women in late hours. But the problem with that 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.840 was that it cost a shortage of drivers that were 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.399 available to women, since d D obviously doesn't have as 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:04.240 many female drivers, and this was something I thought was 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.639 really interesting. So on Uber, only about fifteen percent of 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.880 the drivers are female, and on Lift is only about 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.760 And if you look at the overall transportation industry, women 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.560 actually make up a super small percentage of that and 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.720 it's actually largely a result of safety concerts. So that's 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.040 why there are so few women in the industry overall. 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:25.440 That reminds me a sleen of some Uber history. Back 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.040 in two fifteen, Uber had announced this partnership with with 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:33.000 the United Nations Right to create a million jobs for 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.240 women by which of course is now basically a year away. 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:39.920 So remind us what happened with that partnership. Yeah, what's 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:41.919 interesting is that I think a lot of what I 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.639 spoke to with these women's about are reflected in the 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:46.879 ultimate decision of the U n which was to cancel 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.880 that partnership. I mean, just days after it was announced 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.920 back in the International Transportation Federation published a letter saying 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.240 Uber actually does not empower women, that it makes the 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.879 labor market more and equal by denying people basic for 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.440 tections like fair wages, job security and safety at work. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.880 So one of the women you talked to, I think 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:10.680 was Hannah, said she was delivering food because of course 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:13.320 then she doesn't need to put a passenger uh in 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.160 the backseat. She maybe just has a pizza back there. 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.119 Is that Is that a reasonable solution for women who 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.840 might feel unsafe driving for Uber and left to just 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.160 do another take another job in the gig economy. It's 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:27.560 true that a lot of the women did like food 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.840 delivery for the fact that they could actually bring their 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.560 kids with them, but by and large, pretty much every 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.760 woman I spoke to you said it wasn't as lucrative 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.520 and they weren't making as much money and that that's 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.080 why they were returning to Uber and left. Yeah, it's 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.240 kind of a shame that the largest part of the 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.280 gig economy would be off limits to some of the 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.399 people who really need the flexibility and the earning opportunity 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.520 the most. But I'm curious from your perspective, I mean, 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:53.959 with Travis being out of the company back when he 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.600 was really criticized for not dealing with sexual craftsman internally 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.280 and in terms of drivers safety, do you think is 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.320 really ushering this new way that the company is telling 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.719 me about, well, he you know, he's certainly presenting a 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.040 friendlier public face. But it goes back to one of 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.639 the things that that some of our drivers told us about, 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.280 which is that when they report bad behavior, they're not 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.280 certain that it's being punished. And the great promise not 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.840 of the gig economy, but of these kind of feedback 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.560 rating mechanisms that are ubiquitous on the internet, you know, 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:26.320 is that actions have consequences, right, and if you get 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.080 a bad rating because you're a passenger and you try 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:32.280 to hold your driver's hand, there should be zero tolerance. 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:34.679 You know, that should be recorded on your record, and 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:37.159 a future driver should know about it. And and you know, 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:39.800 either you're out or drivers see it to see it 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:41.480 in the form of a low rating and have the 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.720 opportunity to decide not to pick you up. What it 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.240 sounds like is that these companies are still so desperate 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:51.000 for growth then they don't want to lose drivers, and 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:53.359 they don't want to lose passengers that they're they're not 0:21:53.520 --> 0:22:00.520 enforcing their own enforcement mechanisms. So, Selena, before we finish up, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.119 what are Jody and Hannah's plans for the future. Do 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:05.640 they want to keep driving. Hannah told me she will 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:10.400 keep on driving. It's not bad money, it's good money. Um, 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.040 direct up quickly. You can have some really pleasant experiences. 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:16.520 I'm gonna work from home mom. I'm around my children 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.160 all the time. If you get social interaction with adults 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:21.800 and not necessarily people that you would meet on a 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:26.480 day to day basis. But Jody was less certain. Honestly, 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.199