1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Okay, I've got a question for you because I know 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: this is like this would be a challenge. I was 3 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,959 Speaker 1: just eating one of my chocolate orange truffles delicious um, 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: and it's I was like, man, this is really trying 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: to save him because we got like six when we 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: were in California. Fancy chocolates. Orange truffle one of my favorites. 7 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:27,319 Speaker 1: And you strongly dislike chocolate plus almost anything else but 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: peanut butter, especially fruit. Yeah, well yeah, I don't like orange, 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: I don't like mint and chocolate. But here's what I 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: was thinking. I was like, man, this would be my 11 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: scene if there was like a zombie apocalypse and I 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: hadn't had this would be these would be my twinkies 13 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: right the zombie land. I found a chocolate orange truffle 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: and ate it. After like you know, six months of 15 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: not having you know, having to eat rats and whatever 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: canned beans I could find. Yeah, I'd be like this 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: this is it was all about rats and beans. So 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: if there was a zombie apocalypse and you hadn't had 19 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: like human food, you know, you've been eating dog food 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: and you know, whatever water you can scrape out of 21 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: a gutter, grape out of a gutter. What a dismal 22 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: future you have planned for me? But then you finally 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: found like a chocolate orange truffle. Would it be delectable 24 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: to you? Or would you be like, god, damn it, 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: I mean it would I would be mad, like wow, 26 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: this is sort of a what's that thing where they 27 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 1: say like a gift with the left hand or something 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: where it's not really a gift actually occurs. It's like 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: a monkey poth thing where it's like, he'll get sort 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: of what you want, but not really version you hate. Alright, 31 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: so I don't know. I would still eat it, certainly, 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: but I would I begrudge it for not being a 33 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: delicious peanut butter confection or something with caramel perhaps, or 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: a butter cream. Even so, you'd be acceptable to need 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: dog food and you're still in the back of your 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: mind going to be like, well, this could be a 37 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: better chocolate than what I got. I'm a spoiled bit, 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: all right, fair, It's good that you know yourself. I 39 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: like what I like. I don't care what conditions in 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: which brings us to today's story. Well that he said 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: that I sound crazy, not crazy, just entitled. Okay, well 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: enough now, well We're so glad to be back to 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: our usual ridiculous romance show after spending all that time 44 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: in the Crypti Bugs and Andy Addicts, Booky Addicts. You 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: got possessed by those demons briefly. That was really messy 46 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: around the house. Happens all the time. I gotta scrubble 47 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: all those blood messages off the wall. But but we're 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: back to straight history now. Straight history started kicking it 49 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: off with a lesbian story. Well, I mean, I guess 50 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: non supernatural natural historical history. Yeah, this story takes place 51 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties when two Apache warriors, Lowsen and Tadaste, 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: came together over a struggle against US forces who were 53 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: working to take their land and force them under reservations. 54 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: And I do want to say right now, if you've 55 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,119 Speaker 1: looked at the title of the episode, it's Lowsen and Tadaste. 56 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: It's not. I don't know what white person heard this 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: woman's name and wrote it and spelled it like they did, 58 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: but it's pronunciations I found are Tadaste not da Teste. Well, 59 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: while sources on their actual romance are sparse, these two 60 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: shared an intimate love for each other in the midst 61 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: of constant war. They fought alongside some of the most 62 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: renowned APACHE leaders in history, like Victoria and Geronimo, and 63 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: they used their brilliant strength and special abilities to save 64 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Apache lives for decades. This one's so exciting. Let's do it, 65 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: hey their French come listen well, Elia and Diana got 66 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: some stories to tell. There's no matchmaking a romantic tips. 67 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: It's just about ridiculous relationships, a lover, it might be 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: any type of person at all. And abstract concept are 69 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: a concrete wall. But if there's a story, were the 70 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: Second Glance show Ridiculous Rolevance a production if I Heart Radio. 71 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: In the mid eighteen hundreds, there were at least seven 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: Apache bands spread across an area known as a Pachariah 73 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: in a region that we now know as eastern Arizona 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 1: and more or less southwest New Mexico. Now. One of 75 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: these bands was called the Chehenna Apache, and they were 76 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: also known as the Red Paint People because of the 77 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: red band of clay paint they wore on their faces 78 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: during ceremonies. This was a matriarchal culture and according to 79 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: a quote on history dot Com from Joey Padilla, the 80 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: medicine man from the Mescalero Apache Reservation in New Mexico. Quote, 81 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: the Apaches always had a woman with them. She stood 82 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: right behind the man with a knife or a gun. 83 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: If the man went down, you had to deal with 84 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: the woman too. Behind every great man is a woman 85 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: with a knife. Bath Now ranty. A girl was born 86 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: here who would become known as Lowsen. Lowson's brother was Victorio, 87 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: and he would grow up to be the chief, and 88 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: the two of them grew up best buds because lows 89 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: In was just basically the ultimate badass. Her name means 90 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: dexterous horse thief because a dexterous horse. So she would 91 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: sneak into enemy camps totally undetected and like sneak back 92 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: out with all their horses, which was partly a hilarious 93 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: prank and partly a brilliant strategy of tactics because now 94 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: we got horses and you don't know. So Lowson was 95 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: a badass. She was just incredibly skilled at a bunch 96 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: of different things. And she is considered by some to 97 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 1: have been a two spirited person. In a Bustle article, 98 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: Arin Wise from the g Karrea Apache says that quote 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: too spirit is a name for people in Indigenous culture 100 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: who carry the duality between the sacred feminine and sacred 101 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: masculine within them, though definitions vary per indigenous nation and person. Yeah, 102 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: this is interesting because I always, you know, had a 103 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: had a very cursory understanding of what too spirit it was, 104 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: and often compared it to non binary or gender fluid 105 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: or something like that. But apparently within the different cultures 106 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: it can mean a number of different things. Doesn't really 107 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: have a direct translation to, uh, you know how you 108 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: and I might talk about gender in our culture. Yeah, 109 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,559 Speaker 1: it's interesting. Yeah, now wise rights quote I was told 110 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: my entire life that there were no Apache women who 111 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: were that way, and Encyclopedia dot Com says that female 112 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: bodied two spirit status was never documented among the Apaches, 113 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: but quote Losen's career parallels those of such women in 114 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: other tribes. Basically, lows And just crushed gender norms, Like 115 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of what it boils down to. In the 116 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: Quality of Folk, Encyclopedia of Gay Folk Life, author Mickey 117 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: Weims says that Lowsen just never cared about the traditional 118 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: roles of Apache women. She was tough and quote more 119 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: masculine than other men. In her tribe, and when she 120 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: wasn't out on a raid, she was just rough housing 121 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: with the other guys and earning their respect as an athlete. Okay, 122 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: all right. When she was twelve, she went through the 123 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: usual puberty rights, which included a feast before her being 124 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: sent into the mountains, and according to oral history, she 125 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: gained supernatural powers on this journey, the ability to heal 126 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: wounds and to locate enemy armies. That's pretty dope compass 127 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: for your enemy, right right. And this, from what I 128 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: could tell, these kinds of skills were typically more for men, 129 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:28,119 Speaker 1: Like generally you'd have medicine men more often than medicine women, 130 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: And so that was another way that she was kind 131 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,199 Speaker 1: of shaking things up. Yeah, and she became an incredible 132 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: medicine woman with this vast knowledge of the medicinal properties 133 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: of plants and minerals. But she didn't just go out 134 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: with her people to heal them. She was also one 135 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: of the most badass warriors they had. She could ride, fight, shoot, 136 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: rope and steal with the best of them, and her 137 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: detection powers saved their asses time and time again. I 138 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: bet it got to a point where the life I 139 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: ain't going out unless low and okay, okay, I guess 140 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: we're staying home tonight leftovers. How would you have at 141 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: twelve years old if someone was like, okay, Diana, we're 142 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: going to have a big feast and then you're going 143 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: off to the mountains. You're going to go off to 144 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,679 Speaker 1: Stone Mountain all by yourself, and you got to take 145 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: care of yourself for a week and make your way 146 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 1: back home. How would you have done? I mean I 147 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: would have been fine. I guess admitted that if I 148 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: was eating rats, I would still begrudged. A dark chocolate 149 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: orange truffle come in my way. That makes me think 150 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be fine. That's what I'm saying. You would 151 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: not farewell. I think you know what I'm torn. I 152 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: don't think. I think I would complain about it a lot, 153 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: but I do think that I would come through. I 154 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: think I would come through. I have had to take 155 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: care of myself many a time in the past. So 156 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: you would come back with like dirt all over you, 157 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: blood war pain on your face, like you've murdered your 158 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: way back home again, and you'd be like, that's sucking, sucked, 159 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: and I want a latte right now. Exactlylike lows and 160 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: he was probably like, that was hell a good time. 161 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: Let's do it again. I feel alive. Annual trip, I 162 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 1: would be like, I'm gonna go chill by the fire. 163 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: All y'all owe me one meal. Is it someone's job 164 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: in our band of people to watch Brooklyn nine a 165 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: couple more times? Because I'm willing to volunteer. That is 166 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 1: clearly my purpose. All right well. History dot Com cites 167 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: Harlan Geronimo, who's the great grandson of Geronimo, as saying 168 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: that quote lows In would lift her hands and walk 169 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: in a circle until the veins in her arms turned 170 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: dark blue, indicating the direction from which the enemy would 171 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: approach now wise rights. In their article that in ceremony 172 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: quote Lowsen would sing, extend her arms and turn in 173 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: a circle until her palms tingled, and then that's what 174 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: told her which direction the enemies were in, so whether 175 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: her hands were actually changing color or not. She turned 176 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: around and was like, I got a feeling there over there, 177 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: and she was right often enough that, like you said, 178 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: everyone was like, we gotta get lows In out here. 179 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: They really respected this power that she had. She would 180 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: pray to the apache's highest deity usen for guidance and 181 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: once they knew where the enemies were, and she also 182 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: apparently knew how far away they were. She was also 183 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: a head strategist and counselor and fighter in the battles 184 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: that would follow her. Brother. Chief Victorio said of her quote, 185 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: lows In is as my right hand, strong as a man, 186 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: braver than most, and cunning in strategy. Lows In is 187 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: a shield to her people. Super cool. I do want 188 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: to put out to Chief Victorio and everyone that if 189 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: a woman is as strong as a man, she's as 190 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: strong as a woman, because that's how strong a woman is. 191 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, take the compliment, but also 192 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, just check check yourself. That's why I should 193 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: be by weight. There's some very big women out there 194 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: who could beat the ship out of a small man. Look, 195 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: I know some small women out there who could beat 196 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: the ship out of a large man. Quite frank you, 197 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: some small, small men and women can sometimes be the 198 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: scariest fighters that you'll ever be up against. You regularly 199 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,559 Speaker 1: physically overpower me, and I don't like him because we 200 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: won't give it up. That's the thing. Like little terriers. 201 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: Once the fight begins. I got a winner. I'm dead, 202 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: that's it, and I got two choices. That's so. I 203 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: gotta just to grab on your ankles with my teeth. Damn, 204 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: I gotta watch my ankles. Yeah, watch out, yeah, right, 205 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: like my teeth can handle that. After dental work, then 206 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: you need to watch your ankles, your teeth, or your 207 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: biggest weakness. If I can't escape you, I go for 208 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: the teeth. Please, don't govern my teeth. It's already so expensive. 209 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: Now not far from the Chehennay Apache. Around eighteen sixty, 210 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: Tadaste was born into the choke, a un band of Apaches, 211 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: and List has written about her life growing up, but 212 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: she was also a warrior since youth. New Mexico. Nomad 213 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: dot com says that her people remember her as a 214 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: great hunter and fighter. Her chief was a guy named Coaches, 215 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: and he was one of the most noted Apache leaders 216 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: to resist Western intrusions in the eighteen hundred's. His name 217 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: meant having the quality or strength of an oak, because 218 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: he was like a big, solid, strong as hell do 219 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,719 Speaker 1: and now Coaches is slang for the ultimate badass and 220 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: a biker gang. I had never heard this before. I 221 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: had heard where it was like you heard it as 222 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:55,119 Speaker 1: like a California like yeah, something like that. Okay, coachese 223 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: something like that, And I didn't know what it meant really, 224 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: but I mean pretty amazing to be a slang word 225 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: for the ultimate badass. Yeah, when people say, like, you're 226 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: a real Diana in the future, they're just gonna mean 227 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,479 Speaker 1: you've got bad teeth. Wow, rude future folk. I disagree 228 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: how I disapprove how you're using my name, but I 229 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: guess you don't get to choose. They remember you anyway. 230 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: So Coaches was dope, and Todas Stay rode with him, 231 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: helping to push back settlers and soldiers who were coming 232 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: over from the East. Now, Unlike Lowsen, Todas Stay put 233 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: effort into her feminine appearance. She was well groomed, she 234 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: dressed in feminine attire, despite her also being a great fighter. 235 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: She just she liked to look good. It's like Commander Leiwaway, Remember, 236 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: she was always like, let me look good? Right, did 237 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: I stay like? It said that She always wore her hair, 238 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: her hair down, but it was always brushed. She always 239 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: just like wanted to present herself. Is very feminine, and 240 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: why not right now, Losen never married or had any children, 241 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: but todas Stay married young to a warrior named Ann 242 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: and they had several children together. She and her husband 243 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: rode together during battles, and it was said that she 244 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: was a better writer than most of the men in 245 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: her tribe. Tadaste was also fluent in English, and she 246 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: was a skilled translator and an effective mediator with the U. 247 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: S Cavalry. So we've got these two badass women out 248 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: here kicking ass, taking names. But Lowsen and her brother 249 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: had to deal with the US government setting up reservations 250 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: and shockingly, spoiler alert, it did not go in their favor. Na, 251 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: But our history with that is so cool and chill. 252 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: But it did give Mosen the chance to be a 253 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: bad s and eventually it led to her and Tada 254 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: Stay meeting and we will hear about that right after this. 255 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, everybody. So in the US 256 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: government offered Victorio and coaches both reservation land at Warm Springs, 257 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: New Mexico, and Victoria was like, okay, hold up, let 258 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: me just go check with my sister. My right hand 259 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: and I need to confer. We don't do nothing without 260 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: asking Lowson. That's right, and he went back to Lowes 261 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, you know, do you think it's 262 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: a good idea to take this prop you know, take 263 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: this land from the government or whatever. She's basically like, 264 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: I mean, no stress, but what are other choices? You know, 265 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of we're kind of David and Goliath over here, right, 266 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: and we don't need to go into the whole history here. 267 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: But of course the US was moving in, they were 268 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: colonizing the western plains. They all saw this happening, and 269 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: they were like, there, it might be best if we 270 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: kind of take a deal early on rather than getting 271 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: into fighting later getting killed and then getting nothing left over. Yea. 272 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: And Victoria was like, okay, great point, and he goes 273 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: back to the US governments, as we'll take it. Well, 274 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: guess what. It did not work out so great, because 275 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: soon after they moved to Warm Springs, they got moved 276 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: again to a totally different reservation. In December of eighteen 277 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: seventy two, President Ulysses S. Grant established the San Carlos 278 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: Apache Reservation. And this place was notoriously horrible. First, the 279 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: US government couldn't find anyone good to run it. They 280 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: asked people and a bunch of people turned it down 281 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: of over and over and over again. Also, the U. 282 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: S Army there were incredibly cruel to the indigenous people 283 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: that lived there. Sometimes they would torture or kill apaches 284 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: just for sport. Now, politicians also in setting this reservation up, 285 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: made no effort to learn the difference between the various 286 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: tribes in the region and just lumped them all together. 287 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: So you had some bands of Apaches that were enemies 288 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: living right up against each other. And while Apaches were 289 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: supposed to be fed and housed on the reservation shan, 290 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: a lot of their caretakers were never even given the 291 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: federal money that was set aside for them. So they're like, hey, 292 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: too bad, So sad, I can't feed you. So everyone 293 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: just suffered. There wasn't enough grass for livestock degrayes, there 294 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 1: wasn't game to hunt. The water was bad, it was hot, overcrowded, 295 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: and there were malaria outbreaks, which the Apache had barely 296 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: experienced before that. Oh my god. So it was just 297 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: an awful, terrible, horrible place. And this is where Victorio 298 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: lows In and their band of Apaches were sent to 299 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: live in the mid eighteen seventies. Now, without getting too 300 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: deep into the history here. Victorio was a great leader 301 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: and he negotiated a lot with the American and Mexican armies, 302 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: so he knew this place was bullshit. He's like, this 303 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: is not what we talked about. Not one time did 304 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: I say malaria was yeah, you throw in some malaria, 305 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: then we'll do it in the contract where I signed off. 306 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: And in eight seventy six, he and lows In and 307 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: their patches just got the funk out of there. They're like, 308 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: you know what, We're not living here. So they packed 309 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: up their ship and they just walked away, and army 310 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: patrols were like, no, you can't leave, because actually you're 311 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: a prisoner. So they kind of surrounded them as they 312 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: moved west and forced them to another reservation near oh 313 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: Kellyane in northern New Mexico. They were classified as prisoners 314 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: of war, just sitting waiting for the usr ME to 315 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: like decide what to do with them. Two years of 316 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: uncertainty pass and rumors started circulating that they were going 317 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: to be moved back to Stan Carlos, that worst reservation 318 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: ever that they had left in the first place. So Victoria, 319 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: of course was pissed about that. He's like, no, bitch, 320 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: I said, I would not accept this. So he probably 321 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: looked looked over at lows In and what was like 322 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: and she gave him like a solemn little nod like 323 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: Robert redfor me, like yes, let's do it. And in 324 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: the autumn of eighteen seventy nine he declared war. Victorio 325 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: was facing the entire might of the U. S. Army, 326 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: which obviously was a lot, but the Apaches still had 327 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: a few major advantages. They knew the terrain, they were 328 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 1: more accustomed to traveling long distances without rest or food, 329 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: or water, and plus, the white settlers had plenty of 330 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: horses for loads and to steal. The Apaches would just 331 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: ride their horses hard until they were too tired, and 332 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: then they would just trade them out. They just slip 333 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: into somebody's camp, steal their horses, and they would keep going. 334 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: And then you know, the U. S. Army only had 335 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: their regular ass horses that were still tired and they 336 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: couldn't keep up. But battles were difficult and the Apaches 337 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: had to constantly stay moving. Victorio did sometimes raid ranches, 338 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: and he killed ranchers and miners that had settled on 339 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: Apache lands, and of course, the US government inflated this 340 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: and made him seem like, you know, just the butcher 341 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: of the West, Like he's out there just trying to 342 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: kill everyone he can get his hands right, right. But 343 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: history net dot com says that while at the time 344 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: the New York Times claimed that Victorio killed four hundred civilians, 345 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: the real number is likely far smaller. Again, just propaganda 346 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: trying to make these people look like we need, we 347 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: need to go in and civilize them, you know, that 348 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: was the message they were always trying to push. But 349 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: between battles Lows and was out there saving everyone's asses constantly. 350 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: One account from a man named James Kawaikla, who was 351 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: a child at the time, said that at one point 352 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: their band was pressed up against the Rio Grand with 353 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: U S forces closing in. Kawakla wrote, quote, I saw 354 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: a magnificent woman on a beautiful horse, Lows and sister 355 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: of Victorio, and she held her rifle high over her head, 356 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: and a glint of lights sparkled against her boot, and 357 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: she kicked her horse into action. The horse reared and 358 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: charged into the river Lows and turned him upstream, and 359 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: they swam across to the other side. The rest of 360 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: the women and children followed her into the raging river, 361 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: and soon all of them had made it safely to 362 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: the other side. Lows And told kawakeless mother to take charge, 363 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: and then returned across the river to join the other 364 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: warriors in battle. Awesome, so cool, so cool. She was like, listen, ladies, 365 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: let's go girls. I hope she didn't say that, just kidding, 366 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: but she girls, get it done. Girls kidding, but she 367 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: definitely inspired them, you know, to to brave this verifying river. 368 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: There can you imagine standing there at the Rio Grand River. 369 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: It's like raging and surging. It's a huge as river 370 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: and you're like, easily they're gonna kill us if they 371 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: catch up to us, or I can cross the water 372 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: work and drown in this river. And Lowson was just like, 373 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: follow me. I got this. Watch Sha, how it's done. 374 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: We can do If I can do it, you can 375 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: do yeah. And they're like, you're way cooler than me. 376 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: But I guess a lot of them are like, there's 377 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: a lot of you can do that I can. In 378 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: eve Ball's book In the Days of Victorio, she describes 379 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: los In helping a pregnant woman in their band who 380 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: was about to give birth. As the apaches pressed forward, 381 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: los And stayed back and helped this woman find a 382 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: hidden place in enemy territory and helped her quietly deliver 383 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: the baby without getting caught. It's like the scene in 384 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: the Quiet Place, Yes, except the monsters are white people, 385 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: if you can imagine that? What uh? The next morning 386 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 1: they snuck out and made for the river, just her 387 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: and this woman and her one day old baby. The 388 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: woman had just given birth, like sneak out around to 389 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: come on. All they had on them was a blanket, 390 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: Losens rifle, and Losens night. So lows In goes down 391 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: to the river, starts chopping off willow shoots, and builds 392 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: a little cradle for the baby. Of course, of course, 393 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: like that's exactly what I would do. It's the first 394 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: thing I would think of. Then she told the mom, like, 395 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: hang on, I gotta brb real quick. We're running out 396 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: of food. There were enemies all around them, so she 397 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: couldn't risk firing her rifle to hunt. So Lowsen did 398 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: what eve Ball calls quote a feat that few men 399 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: would undertake. And she went out and she wrestled and 400 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: killed a longhorn bull with nothing but one empty hand 401 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: and a knife in the other. I mean, do you 402 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: think she jumped out of the bushes just like punched 403 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: him in the face. I imagine she was probably like, 404 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I have to do this, but I'm gonna 405 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: kill you and eat you. Uh. I mean, come on, 406 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: that thing is huge. See the horns on that thing. 407 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: So lows In and this new mother and this newborn 408 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: they had to leave the river, but neither of them 409 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,239 Speaker 1: had a water jug and it would be too far 410 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: to go on foot without one, so Losin is probably 411 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: like rolling her. I was like, okay, hang on, let 412 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: me go handle this too, right, I'll go get us 413 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: a horse, and she cut a bridle from the hide 414 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: of the long horn, and then she gave the woman 415 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: her rifle and then jumped into the river to go 416 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 1: steal a horse from the Mexican army on the other side. 417 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: Before long, she found a group of Mexican soldiers, and 418 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: she waited until nightfall. She picked out a big, powerful, 419 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: restless horse, snuck up to it. She tied the bridle 420 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: to its snout, but when she cut the horse's hobbles, 421 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: it reared up and made a loud noise, and the 422 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: Mexican soldiers woke up and realized they were being robbed, 423 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: but lows In jumped on the horse's back, turned its 424 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: head towards the river and started riding bull It's whizzing 425 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: past her. She rode the horse straight into the river, 426 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: sing to safety and out of range of gunfire. By morning, 427 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: the two women were miles away. Amazing, such an adventure, 428 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: incredible ship. And I also feel like she's deserved some 429 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: royalties from many films who have done this exact same scene. 430 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: Like I was thinking immediately at the mask of Zoro 431 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: when he goes and gets his the black horse that 432 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 1: he becomes really well known for, he goes and steals 433 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: it from all these like Mexican Yeah, they're not asleep, 434 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: they're like partying or something, but it's the same. He's like, 435 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: be quiet and he's like sneaking around. And then the 436 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: horse was like they all get it. They all like 437 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: the horse was like what now, he was like, okay, 438 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: thank you a good horse sound effect. So Victorio is 439 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: often credited as being one of the greatest apache military 440 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: strategists of all time, and history net says that quote 441 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: no Western American Indian chief received shabbier treatment from the U. 442 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: S Government than Victorio, and no one demonstrated a greater 443 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: mastery of guerilla warfare. He would hit him hard and 444 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: keep moving that they had to keep when they really 445 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: had no where they could stay. So if the if 446 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: U S forces were ever catching up, they knew exactly 447 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: where to hide. They would ambush them, or they would 448 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: just position themselves in the mountains in certain ways where 449 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: they were totally unreachable. Really really impressive strategic moves, but 450 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: it wouldn't last forever. By eight eighty he and Losen 451 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: had the US and Mexican armies both hunting them down. 452 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: When Lowson dropped the mother and child off safely at 453 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: a reservation, she learned then that Victorio and most of 454 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: his warriors had been defeated by Mexican forces. James K. 455 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: Wakeless says in eve Ball's book that he was the 456 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: sole survivor of the massacre at Trace Castillos, which was 457 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: Victorio's last stand. He said that after firing his last bullet, 458 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: Victorio took his own life rather than surrender. History dot 459 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: Com says that his death made him a martyr and 460 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: the Apaches resolve was fortified. One of the great Apache 461 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: leaders who stepped up afterwards was Geronimo, and Geronimo had 462 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: a particular warrior running with him. Somebody was helping him 463 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: fight and translating their negotiations into English. Really none other 464 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: than to Daste. Oh hey girl, how you doing? Where 465 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: you been? So lows and rushed back to help her 466 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: surviving people escape, and soon was helping Geronimo escape from 467 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: San Carlos. She was ready for vengeance for her brother's death, 468 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: and she brought deadly aid to Geronimo's cause. But this 469 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: is also I wish she met to Daste, and we're 470 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 1: going to hear about their love for each other right 471 00:28:53,320 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: after this. Welcome back to the show. So Geronimo and 472 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: his people, including Tadaste, had been shipped off to San Carlos, 473 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: the worst reservation that we talked about earlier. Losen followed 474 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: her new chief, Nana, who was another renowned APACHE leader 475 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: who was kicking ass well into his seventies, uh, and 476 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: they went to regroup with Geronimo's forces to try and 477 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: get some action going. Nana, there's a lot written about him. 478 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: He was kind of a protege under Victorio even though 479 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: he was older than him, and after Victoria died, everyone 480 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: was kind of like, hey, Nana, you're you're taken over, right, Yeah, 481 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: And he was like, all right, I guess I will 482 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: and her hand right. And he had like a bad leg, 483 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: and so everyone's like, this guy with a with a 484 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: bum leg over seventy years old was like outwitting and 485 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: out maneuvering and out fighting the U. S. Army. That 486 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: was pretty awesome. Yeah. In the book The Woman in 487 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: the Shaman's Body, author Barbara Tedlock calls Taste and Losin 488 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: friends and lovers who worked as messengers and warriors with 489 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: Geronimo's band of Apaches. Did Asta was still married to 490 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: an Andia, but Tedlock writes she was bisexual, and when 491 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: she met Lows and Sparks started Lion, they just had 492 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: so much in common. They were both skilled writers, fighters, 493 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: and strategists. They probably bonded over like talked about the 494 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: sharpness of their knives or what kind of horses they 495 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: like to steal best. She's like, oh my god, So 496 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: this one time I had this pregnant lady and I 497 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: had to like go across the river and steal a 498 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: Mexican horse and then right back over and get her 499 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: the hell out of there. It was crazy. Wow, gir all, 500 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: that is so cool. Meanwhile, I've just been negotiating with 501 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: the US government this whole time. Sounds like even scarier, 502 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: I know. Seriously. On May seventeenth of eighty five, the 503 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: Apaches overpowered the reserve asitions commanding Officer Britton Davis and 504 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: fled the reservation once again. The Apaches had a real 505 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: advantage of knowing and surviving the southwestern terrain, but U 506 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: s forces under General George Crook had employed around one 507 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: hundred Apache scouts who knew how to find the mountain 508 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: hideouts where Geronimo and his people were trying to rest. 509 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: And Geronimo, of course, is heartbroken that Apaches were siding 510 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: with US forces to root him right, right, That felt 511 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: like a real betrayal, real betrayal. Right, But of course 512 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: Geronimo had a few secret weapons of his own, notably 513 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: to Das Stay and Lowson. Geronimo was able to stay 514 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,239 Speaker 1: a step ahead of US forces because Losin used her 515 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: special powers to know exactly where the enemy was coming from. 516 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: She stretched her hands out to the sky and said 517 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: a prayer poem which was translated in eve Ball's book 518 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: In the Days of Victoria. So let's go down to 519 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: poetry corner, and here Lozen's prayer upon this earth on 520 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: which we live, us in has power. This power is 521 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: mine for locating the enemy. I searched for that enemy 522 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: which only us in the Great can show to me. 523 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: She would turn in a circle, her palms tingled, and 524 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: she knew which way to look. You Pati say that 525 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: this kept Geronimo and his forces alive. And some believe 526 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: that if Lozen had been with Victoria at trace Castillo's, 527 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: he would not have been ambushed and defeated. I mean, 528 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: they really believed in this. Again, she she was. She 529 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: was right often enough that they were like this, this 530 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: is some real magic. This is legit. Yeah, even if 531 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: you get it wrong. Sometimes if you're right seven times 532 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: out of ten, I mean, l five times out of ten, 533 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: I'm pretty good, even half, I think so. Yeah, I 534 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: mean that's that's a lot better than the no times 535 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: I got one. I guessed I didn't find a single 536 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,479 Speaker 1: one of Geronimo's enemies. Or you know, there's some magic happening, 537 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: or there's some magic happening that might that could be true. 538 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not here to say it is speculation. 539 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: Station it was magic fully. The Geronimo's forces were completely 540 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: undefeated in battle, but they were tired and hungry and 541 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: homesick after months of just running and fighting. Encyclopedia dot 542 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: com says that apachees described Losen and Tadaste as quote 543 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: regular companions at this time, and that in the nineteen thirties, 544 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: Apache informants told anthropologist Morris Oppler about two unnamed women 545 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: who had a sexual relationship. They are believed undoubtedly to 546 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: be Lozen and Tadaste. Now. Tadaste was in her mid 547 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: twenties at this time. Lowson was about twenty years older 548 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: than her, but they were in separable both on and 549 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: off the battlefield. They also continued their work as negotiators 550 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: under Geronimo. In Marcia of eighteen eighties six, he decided 551 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: it was time to negotiate a surrender. They were still undefeated, 552 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: but they were exhausted. They couldn't keep running forever. He 553 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: could tell the end was in sight. Better to have 554 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: a say and how it will end. So let's go 555 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: make a table and then get a seat at it 556 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: right quick. So Lowsen and Tadaste arranged a conference with 557 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: General Krook. They met in the Sierra Madre mountains just 558 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: south of the US Mexico border, little neutral territory there, 559 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: and they had negotiations for three days. Photographer CS Fly, 560 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: who along with his wife Mary are some of the 561 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: most prolific photographers of the Old West, got Geronimo to 562 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: stand for about fifteen pictures during this time, and these 563 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: are the only known pictures of an American Indian who 564 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: was currently at war with the US. Losen and Tadaste 565 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: kept negotiations going, and eventually they arranged some terms with 566 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: Crook and brought those back to Geronimo. He was just 567 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: south of the Mexican Board Order, and he agreed and 568 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: said that he would cross the river and sign in 569 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: the morning. But that night a U S soldier who 570 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: sold Geronimo some whiskey told him, Hey, man, no, no, no, no, 571 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: as soon as y'all crossed the US border, they're gonna 572 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: kill al y'all. It's over now. Geronimo, Toda stay lows, 573 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: and they all had plenty of reason to believe that 574 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: the US government wouldn't keep their word, so the three 575 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: of them, along with nearly forty of their followers slipped 576 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: away during the night. Well that really piste off the 577 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: US government Krook felt like he had failed, so he 578 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: requested to be relieved of this mission to deal with 579 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: Geronimo um and was eventually replaced with General Nelson Miles, 580 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: who sent a huge expedition out to find them. History 581 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: dot Com says they were pursued by five thousand US soldiers, 582 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: which was nearly a quarter of the U. S. Standing 583 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: army at the time. Can you imagine if a quarter 584 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: of the U. S. Army was after you? No, I 585 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: mean like you like, on one hand, I'm like, wow, 586 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: I must be real special, you know. Well, and there's 587 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: like forty of them. For five thousand people to catch 588 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: forty of them, how badass they were though? They were 589 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: like a real scary enemy army. Absolutely, Now me, I 590 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: don't think I'd be a scary enemy to have to 591 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: do a quarter of the U. S. Arm The teeth 592 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: just go over the teeth. They sat it right here 593 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: on their podcast now. For nearly five months, Losen and 594 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: Tadaste helped Geronimo evade capture, but by August they were 595 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: once again tired, hungry, and homesick. In September, US soldiers 596 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: caught up with them in Mexico and to save the 597 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: lives of his remaining people. Geronimo laid down his rifle, 598 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: becoming the last American Indian leader to formally surrender to 599 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: the U S military. Todaste and Lowsen once again headed 600 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: up negotiations for this surrender, and they agreed that they 601 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: would go into Eggsi for two years on a Florida 602 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: reservation before being allowed to return to the West. But 603 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: guess what this was, In the words of New Mexico 604 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: nomad dot com quote a deliberate, calculated lie man. Lows 605 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: And and Taaste were in the first group who was 606 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: sent to Florida as a good faith gesture to the US, 607 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: but there was no intention of letting them return home. 608 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: After two years. They ended up in Fort Pickens in Pensacola, Florida, 609 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: were Washington Post reports that quote the Apache died like 610 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: flies at frost time. Meanwhile, white businessman used Geronimo as 611 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: a tourist attraction, charging visitors to come see this blood 612 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: thirsty Indian warrior, you know, while he's locked up in 613 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 1: his cell. A lot of these Apaches still had children 614 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: back in the reservations in Arizona, and the US government 615 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: came in and was like, well, we'll go pick up 616 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: your kids, and we'll send him to a school in Pennsylvania. 617 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: Oh God, well, at that school, more than a third 618 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: of those children died very quickly of tuberculosis. Man Yeah. 619 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: Los And and Tadaste maintained their relationship while imprisoned, and 620 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: during this time Tadasti divorced her husband and Nandia. But 621 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: in many of the Apaches were relocated to the Mount 622 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,439 Speaker 1: Vernon Barracks in Alabama, and it seems this is where 623 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: they were separated. Between eighteen seventy seven and eighteen eighty 624 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: los And lost her brother, her homeland, most of her 625 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: people while fighting with US and Mexico, and now in Alabama, 626 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: she lost the woman she loved and thousands of miles 627 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: from her home. She, like nearly a quarter of the 628 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: Apaches at Mount Vernon, contracted tuberculosis and died in eighteen 629 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 1: eighty nine. Didaste was moved to Fort Marion in St. 630 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: Augustine and was confined as a pow there for eight 631 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: more years. During this time, she survived pneumonia and tuberculosis. 632 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: After these eight years, she was moved to Fort Sill, Oklahoma, 633 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: along with Geronimo and many others, and she remained a 634 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: prisoner there for another nineteen years. Although these prisoners, some 635 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: of them were offered some land. Um that kind of 636 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:20,959 Speaker 1: it was more like the reservation where they like weren't 637 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: allowed to leave, but they kind of lived a little 638 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: with a little more freedom, if you can call that freedom. Um. 639 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: After these nineteen years were up in nineteen nineteen, she 640 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,759 Speaker 1: was offered the choice to either stay in Fort Sill 641 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: and be given land to live there, or returned to 642 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: the West, and she chose the West at the Muscalero 643 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: Apache Reservation in New Mexico. And there she remarried an 644 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: Apache scout named Cooney. And it said that she never 645 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: spoke English again understandable. I cannot blame her. Yeah, And 646 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: though she did live well into the modern era, she 647 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: wore only traditional Apache clothing. She passed away in nineteen 648 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: fifty five, over ninety years old. She was interviewed by 649 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: Eve Ball before her death, and Eve wrote quote Taste 650 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: to the end of her life, mourned Losen. Mickey Weems 651 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: says that biographies on Losin and Tadaste are sparse in 652 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: their details and tend to downplay their affection for each other, 653 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: not an unusual things. The best friends they were regular compaions. 654 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: There's one remaining photograph of Losen and Tadaste sitting together, 655 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: but biographical sources tend to even cut that picture in 656 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: half and portray them separately. But the evidence is clear 657 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: that these two loved each other very much. Mickey says 658 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,399 Speaker 1: that their resemblance, to a quote lesbian butch fem relationship 659 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: has elevated the couple to iconic status in the two 660 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: spirit community who have reintegrated. The visual and biographical image 661 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,879 Speaker 1: is of Losin and Todaste, so that they are once 662 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: again reunited. It is nice. Yeah, it's really fascinating the 663 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,359 Speaker 1: way this, uh, their story has kind of been recaptured 664 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: and being told again more seemingly more accurately now. And 665 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: if you want more information about these two, Eve Ball's 666 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: book In the Days of Victorio is really fascinating. Um. 667 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 1: She talks to her and a lot of people from 668 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: this era and there are just some really deep stories there. Um. 669 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: And then Aaron Wise says on that Bustle article that 670 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 1: you can check out Seating Sovereignty dot org to learn 671 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: more about two spirit warriors from history and support the 672 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: work that they're doing. So I thought those are really 673 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: really interesting sources. Um, you know, haven't spoken to these people, 674 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: but but I love their work, um, and there's some 675 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: really fascinating history here. It took some effort to try 676 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: and just stick to toda stay in Losin story because 677 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: if you get into what was Victorio's war is what 678 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: it was called after they left the reservation, and he 679 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: was just like, I've had it, look into it because 680 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,960 Speaker 1: it's a really fascinating history. UM. A lot about Geronimo 681 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: as well, who of course was his own sort of 682 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: figure in history. Geronimo, I read, was really popularized by 683 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: uh Us propagandists as a figure, and that's kind of 684 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: why we know him so well. But I was reading that, 685 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, Victorio and Nana were actually better generals um, 686 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: and kind of had more of an impact on the 687 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: Apache back in the day than even Geronimo did. Um. 688 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: Geronimo was just kind of the last one, um, but 689 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: still just fascinating history. Funny who they pick to decide 690 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: to put into the zeit guys sometimes, well they had him, 691 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, he was a prisoner because you could go 692 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: see him, so they held a big story around him 693 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: so that you would want to go see him and 694 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: pay a little quarter or whatever, and he, you know, 695 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 1: he continued to negotiate and work with the US. He 696 00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: marched in, uh, Theodore Roosevelt's inauguration. Geronimo was there kind 697 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,880 Speaker 1: of you know, he tried to be the symbol of like, 698 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,479 Speaker 1: can we just stop killing each other and get along 699 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:08,760 Speaker 1: a little bit here? Um, you know, to an arguable 700 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: degree of success. But but he was out there trying. 701 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, there are still Native Americans today, so I 702 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: suppose that is a good thing that he managed to 703 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: not have a total genocide of free tribe, which could 704 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: be easily could have been the outcome. And it is 705 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: really upsetting that it's like the only concessions were ever 706 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: made by them in the US government to make any 707 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: concession about ship. Every time they said they did, it 708 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: was a blatant lie. And they were just like, let 709 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: me put you on this free range prison or a 710 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: real prison. Yeah, that's just really galling. Hey, we need 711 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,640 Speaker 1: the land you got, but there's a way better one 712 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 1: over here we're going to send you to and they 713 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,439 Speaker 1: get there and there's like no grass. Yeah, because that's 714 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,959 Speaker 1: why the US government didn't want it. I mean, it's 715 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,399 Speaker 1: just crazy to be and we had talked in past 716 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: episodes about how the killing of Buffalo was such a 717 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,719 Speaker 1: concerted effort to be like, we don't want you to 718 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 1: have food to eat, and you're really trying to like 719 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: starve you out. Um, it's just really just a sad blight, 720 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: I guess on our on us. Yeah, yeah, it's it's 721 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 1: not a fun part of history. No, nope. But but 722 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: I do love these two badass ladies. These two are awesome. 723 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,200 Speaker 1: They're very cool people and a beautiful little love story. 724 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: I wish there was a little bit more about them, 725 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 1: But just knowing that they were out there and cared 726 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,759 Speaker 1: so much for each other in the face of all 727 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: this chaos, has some some inspirational quality to it, doesn't 728 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: it sweet. I hope you all enjoy the story. Yeah, 729 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: let us know what you thought. Yeah, please do go 730 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 1: look more into this kind of part of history, because 731 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: there's there's only so much we have time for here, 732 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: but there's so much to know and it is valuable, 733 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: I think. So, Yeah, let us know what you thought. 734 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: Our email is with Dick Romance at gmail dot com. 735 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: You can find us on social media on Twitter and Instagra. 736 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: Am I'm at Oh great, it's Eli. I'm at dynamite 737 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: boom and the show is at ridict romance. Yes, and 738 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,879 Speaker 1: we really appreciate you spending your time with us today. 739 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: We love you, guys. We'll see you next time. So long, 740 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,280 Speaker 1: So long friends, it's time to go. Thanks for listening 741 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: to our show. Tell your friends neighbor's uncle s indance 742 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: to listen to a show ridiculous roll Dance