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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: But I said who is he? And he said he's

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Speaker 2: a murderer. And I said why does he kill people?

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Speaker 2: And my dad just paused and said he likes it.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 3: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 3: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 3: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 3: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 3: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 3: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 3: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 3: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 3: unpublished details behind their stories. Meg Gardner is a thriller writer,

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Speaker 3: a really great one. She has several series, but the

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Speaker 3: one I'm most interested in started with a book called

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Speaker 3: unsub about a serial killer, and it's based on two

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Speaker 3: real serial killers, one of whom she lived very close to. So,

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Speaker 3: first of all, for anybody who hasn't read your thriller books,

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Speaker 3: give me an overview of what you've done so far,

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Speaker 3: how many and what's the premise of different characters you've created.

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Speaker 2: I now have seventeen novels published. They're all thrillers. Several series,

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Speaker 2: the Evan Delaney series about a freelance journalist in Santa Barbara,

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Speaker 2: the Joke Beckett series about a forensic psychiatrist who consults

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Speaker 2: for the San Francisco Police Department, several standalones about a

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Speaker 2: former thief Skip Tracer, and the Caitlin Hendrick series about

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Speaker 2: a young cop who is eventually recruited to the FBI

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Speaker 2: to hunt serial predators. Also the book I co authored

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Speaker 2: with Michael Mann, Heat Too, which is a big saga

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Speaker 2: crime thriller, which I'm very proud of as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so was there a book written about Heat originally

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Speaker 3: before the movie came out.

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Speaker 2: There was not. Heat was original screenplay by Michael Mann

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Speaker 2: and he wrote it, directed it, and then he had

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Speaker 2: so much material that he still wanted to create in

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Speaker 2: that universe. The movie takes place over three weeks, and

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Speaker 2: he had written biographies for all the main characters, decades

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Speaker 2: of you know, backstory for them, and it always wanted

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Speaker 2: to expand the story. So that's what we did.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've interviewed boy'd have to say maybe four or

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Speaker 3: five fiction authors at this point who have used, you know,

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Speaker 3: real true crime stories as a jumping off point. Do

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Speaker 3: you think that's pretty common with the folks who were

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Speaker 3: in the mystery, you know, thriller espionage kind of genre

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Speaker 3: to start somewhere? How do you think a lot of

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Speaker 3: people come up with these stories? You do?

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Speaker 2: You start with a what if and a big character

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Speaker 2: you hope, who's going to deal with that what if?

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Speaker 2: And all you have to do is now, like open

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Speaker 2: your phone or turn on the news, and ideas are

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Speaker 2: not the hard part. It's finding, you know, ideas are everywhere.

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Speaker 2: They're just soaked into the atmosphere. And the trick is

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Speaker 2: to turn that into a compelling narrative, spin it out.

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Speaker 2: But if you write thrillers crime, certainly the infamous cases

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Speaker 2: that have kept us and the country at the world

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Speaker 2: wrapped for years, decades, centuries, now, how many years have

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Speaker 2: people been fascinated with Jack the Ripper? Then using that

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Speaker 2: as a spark to anchor an event, to certainly anchor

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Speaker 2: the emotional tone of the story becomes enticing.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I was going to ask before we

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Speaker 3: get into what inspired unsub which is frankly the best

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Speaker 3: title ever. Like you, so you know, before we get

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Speaker 3: into that, talk to me about your research, because if

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Speaker 3: you are a mystery or a thriller writer who is

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Speaker 3: using true crime as a jumping off point, that has

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Speaker 3: to be part of your research. You're not interviewing a

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Speaker 3: serial killer in prison, but you know you have to

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Speaker 3: get into this person's head.

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Speaker 1: Is that why true crime is enticing?

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Speaker 3: As far as like an inspiration or a place where

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Speaker 3: you go where you can read real interviews with these folks.

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Speaker 2: It can be. I think who knows where research starts

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Speaker 2: and ends. I think it starts with the collision of

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Speaker 2: the characters in real life as well as on the page.

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Speaker 2: Every crime arises from physically. If it's murder, it arises

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Speaker 2: from physically the collision of the perpetrator and the victim.

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Speaker 2: So thinking about who they are, where they are, how

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Speaker 2: they came to be together, that becomes definitely part of

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Speaker 2: the what and the why about how you're creating this story.

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Speaker 2: And research. I mean, you know, research can be this glorious,

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Speaker 2: bottomless rabbit hole that we can just wrap ourselves around in,

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Speaker 2: like it's a big cozy quilt that we can never

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Speaker 2: want to leave.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I find it awful, but yes I'm glad. Other

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Speaker 3: people it just depends. It's awful if I can't find

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Speaker 3: what I'm looking for, it's wonderful and everything you described

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Speaker 3: if it's all right there.

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Speaker 1: But with true crime, you have a lot right there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you've got.

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Speaker 3: Trial transcripts in some of these cases, great newspaper interviews,

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Trial transcripts haven't been that important to me for the

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Speaker 2: books I've written, but news stories books written by investigators. Nowadays,

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Speaker 2: websites where you can look up infamous unsolved cases are

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Speaker 2: now solved cases where everybody in the world has created

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Speaker 2: their own screen name and offers their own take on everything.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes that's just like the worst subreddit ever. And

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's extremely helpful and inspiring as far as like

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Speaker 2: the dedication that people have, and it's more helpful when

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Speaker 2: professionals have contributed to it, and sometimes you will all

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Speaker 2: be talking. I think about some of the sites I

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Speaker 2: came across where retired police officers who had worked on

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Speaker 2: some cases could not let it go even though they

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Speaker 2: were no longer with the department, and they would they

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Speaker 2: would contribute to sites like this, and that was fascinating

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Speaker 2: not only for their insights, but to see the emotional

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Speaker 2: total it had taken on them and how invested they

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Speaker 2: still were in trying to solve the case and to

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Speaker 2: work for the victims and their families. So that becomes

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Speaker 2: as interesting sometimes as figuring out some tricky little clue,

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Speaker 2: like what kind of forensic evidence you can find on

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Speaker 2: a shovel. Because what we're doing when we write fiction

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Speaker 2: is we want to take readers on a journey, an

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Speaker 2: emotional journey, a roller coaster, and do what we can't

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Speaker 2: do in real life, which is bring them back safely

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Speaker 2: at the end.

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Speaker 3: That's a good way to say it. Okay, so let's start.

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Speaker 3: Just tell me a little bit about Unsubbed. Was this

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Speaker 3: the first book for you? I can't remember.

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Speaker 2: Unsub was not the first novel I wrote. It was

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Speaker 2: the first novel I wrote featuring a character who was

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Speaker 2: a law enforcement professional, and we can examine why I

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Speaker 2: had always avoided doing that until then. It was it

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Speaker 2: was I think my eleventh novel was unsub and I'd

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Speaker 2: always had somebody who was maybe on the fringes of

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Speaker 2: law enforcement or investigating law enforcement someone who consulted for

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Speaker 2: them or was running from the law.

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Speaker 3: So my friend calls that cop adjacent, cop adjacent.

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Speaker 2: So so I'll say, you can look at me and

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Speaker 2: say that I have something to something going on with authority,

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Speaker 2: or you can say that did I really want to

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Speaker 2: just avoid the research it took to find out, you

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Speaker 2: know what duty weapons did this Alameda County Sheriff's Department.

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Speaker 2: She to its officers and to find out what really

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Speaker 2: was required of someone in all the affidavits they had

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Speaker 2: to file when they after arrest and everything like that.

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Speaker 2: So I realized, if I was going to write about

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Speaker 2: an infamous series of murders, that having someone who had

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Speaker 2: a badge and arrest authority was probably a good way

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Speaker 2: to go.

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Speaker 3: Tell me the premise of UNSEB. You've got Caitlin Hendricks,

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Speaker 3: and she's what type of officer?

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Speaker 2: Is she a detective or where is she? Caitlyn Hendricks

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Speaker 2: when UNTEP opens is a baby detective. She's actually working narcotics.

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Speaker 2: She's been a detective for all of six months and

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Speaker 2: barely out of uniform, and she finds herself hunting an

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Speaker 2: infamous serial killer who starts murdering again after being dormant

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Speaker 2: for twenty years. She finds out that this killer, the prophet,

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Speaker 2: has begun committing more murders, and this is a killer

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Speaker 2: who haunted her childhood, terrorized the Bay area, and really

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Speaker 2: destroyed her family. Because her father was the homicide detective

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Speaker 2: who handled the initial case and failed to uncover the

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Speaker 2: identity of the UNSUB which stands for unknown subject that

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Speaker 2: is FBI LINGO for the unknown perpetrator and a real

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Speaker 2: life who'd done it, Mack Hendricks. Her dad could not

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Speaker 2: break the case. The case broke him, broke up the family,

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Speaker 2: led him to the brink of taking his own life.

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Speaker 2: You know, this killer had sent the cops and the

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Speaker 2: press weird puzzles, taunting messages. And now I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if a killer came back after twenty years, what would

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Speaker 2: be a way to tell the story? And I thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: let's really, let's sink our fangs into having the detective

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Speaker 2: who's now really got to try to put her skates

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Speaker 2: on and learn how to do this be the daughter

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Speaker 2: of the guy who had taken it on the first place,

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Speaker 2: and of course that's haunted her family. She feels a

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Speaker 2: sense of responsibility, a sense of faith, failure. She's knew

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Speaker 2: she was kind of destined to be a cop because

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Speaker 2: it was in her family's bones, but she does not

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Speaker 2: want to let what happened to her father happened to her.

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Speaker 2: She tries to say she's going to rigidly separate herself

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Speaker 2: from the job, that when she comes home the batch

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Speaker 2: goes off. She's relentless, but she does not want to

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Speaker 2: become obsessed. And of course her dad warns her away

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Speaker 2: from this case uselessly because she's determined to pursue this killer.

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Speaker 2: And things start escalating. I don't know spoilers, but things

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Speaker 2: escalate and percolate, and things start swirling closer and closer

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Speaker 2: to her and the people she cares about.

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Speaker 3: What infamous case became the kernel for this because you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm curious of if it evolved as you started writing it,

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Speaker 3: or did you stick with whatever this case is.

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Speaker 2: The zodiac really was the initial spark for this case.

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Speaker 2: I did grow up in California and recall as a

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Speaker 2: small child seeing the daily newspaper and there was a

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Speaker 2: police drawing on the front page of a figure with

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Speaker 2: a hood over his head with a bizarre symbol on

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Speaker 2: the front, and I recall asking my parents what's that?

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Speaker 2: Who's that? And they said that's the zodiac, and I

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Speaker 2: could kind of in my memory my mom was sort

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Speaker 2: of waving my dad off in the background, kind of

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Speaker 2: like let's throw this paper away. But I said who

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Speaker 2: is he? And he said he's a murderer, And I said,

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Speaker 2: why does he kill people? I was probably going into

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Speaker 2: first grade and Catholic school, where we knew that there

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Speaker 2: were always, you know, deadly sins that drove people to kill,

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Speaker 2: like greed less, anger, hatred, and my dad just paused

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Speaker 2: and said he likes it. And that totally threw me.

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Speaker 2: I could not conceive of why someone would like to

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Speaker 2: kill people, and it really threw me for a loop.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know that I ever slept with my

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Speaker 2: windows open again for a very long time. But of course,

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Speaker 2: the zodiac has never been identified. And I went away

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Speaker 2: stopped killing, supposedly, and at some point later I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if he could set down his murderous impulses for a

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Speaker 2: while at his own choosing, what's to stop him from

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Speaker 2: picking it up again at a moment of his choosing.

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Speaker 2: And that was the genesis for unsub which, of course

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Speaker 2: the zodiac has become this I don't want to say iconic,

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Speaker 2: but notorious case, partly because that killer has never been

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Speaker 2: officially identified and did taunt the media. The police was

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Speaker 2: very much narcissistically interested in keeping himself in the public

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Speaker 2: eye with these bizarre cryptographic puzzles and letters to the

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Speaker 2: San Francisco Examiner in San Francisco Chronicle, and the bizarre

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Speaker 2: symbolism which makes which always people out to think that well,

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Speaker 2: what is you know, what is there? Is there some

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Speaker 2: kind of a cult thing going on? But the zodiac

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Speaker 2: was just genuinely terrifying. So if it scares me, I

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Speaker 2: think it might scare an interest readers as well. And

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Speaker 2: I used that as the ground for the killer in

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Speaker 2: unsept the prophet who left cryptic messages and bizarre symbols,

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Speaker 2: the ancient symbol for mercury sometimes carved into a victim's flesh.

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Speaker 2: And yes, I know you're you're making a face there,

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Speaker 2: But honestly, I did not want this book to be

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Speaker 2: grim and dark. I wanted it to be compelling and

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Speaker 2: fascinating and to have readers want to know as much

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Speaker 2: as I did, what is really behind these crimes? Is

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Speaker 2: there anything beyond someone who's psychotic and there is in

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Speaker 2: the story.

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Speaker 3: I remember somebody telling me, you know, we were talking

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Speaker 3: about plots and mysteries or thrillers, and you know kind

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Speaker 3: of like, well, someone being psychotic, isn't it enough of

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Speaker 3: there has to be another reason? And I thought, now,

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Speaker 3: being psychotic is enough of a reason to do this.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you have to search around, you know,

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Speaker 3: dig around too much in somebody's psyche to just say, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, personality disorder or whatever else there was, So

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Speaker 3: do you think that zodiac? And remembering this as a child,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to put words in your mouth here.

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Speaker 3: Was that one of the contributors for you to want

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Speaker 3: to go down the road in general of telling, you know,

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Speaker 3: thriller type stories.

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Speaker 2: Undoubtedly, I certainly never interrogated myself about that. But I

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Speaker 2: always enjoyed thrillers. I know, like a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: the fact that in fiction we can make things turn

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Speaker 2: out the way we want is part of the appeal

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Speaker 2: of writing it, as well as making readers tear their

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Speaker 2: hair out or you know, bite their fingernails or just

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Speaker 2: keep flipping the pages. But I definitely like the idea

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Speaker 2: that I would have characters who are in who are

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Speaker 2: put to the test, who are put in jeopardy and

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Speaker 2: have to help each other out, have to find out

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Speaker 2: what's going wrong. And in a thriller, it's not usually

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Speaker 2: that there's a body on the floor who you're trying

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Speaker 2: to identify who killed them. It's that's maybe a body

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Speaker 2: set the floor, which is the sign that something worse

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Speaker 2: is coming down the.

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Speaker 3: Road to whoever this is a character in your book,

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Speaker 3: is gonna happen to you probably or someone you love.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So I found it a lot more. Come on,

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Speaker 2: It's fun to write stuff where people really have to

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Speaker 2: dig deep against the stakes or life and death and

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Speaker 2: you want to see them rise to the occasion or

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Speaker 2: die trying. And that's that's why I like to write it.

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Speaker 2: I was also really terrible at attempting to write romance

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Speaker 2: or science fiction, so you know, like those stories. You

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Speaker 2: attempted both of those when I was very young. I did,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's like sucked harder than a vacuum cleaner,

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Speaker 2: So like, let me find something else.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even know how to approach either of those things.

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Speaker 3: Well, okay, so let's talk about zodiac as an inspiration

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Speaker 3: for fiction, because This is an interesting way of looking

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Speaker 3: at it for me, because you know, if I had

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Speaker 3: somebody who had written a book about Zodiac, or if

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Speaker 3: I interviewed, you know, Paul Holes from the Golden State

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Speaker 3: killer case. If I interviewed Paul about Zodiac, which is

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Speaker 3: a case that he's been active in, he would give

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Speaker 3: me a play by play. He would talk about the

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Speaker 3: way that what Zodiac wore according to survivors, what exactly happened,

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Speaker 3: what the settings were, and all of that stuff. It

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Speaker 3: would be very methodical and it's scientific because that's that's

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Speaker 3: who he is and that's what an author would would

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Speaker 3: explain that too. So your point of view is a

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Speaker 3: little different because you're somebody who's living in that time period,

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Speaker 3: through that experience. So tell me, you know, we've talked

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Speaker 3: about the symbolism that he you know, and the taunting,

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Speaker 3: and he's got kind of all of the Jack the

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Speaker 3: Ripper hallmarks.

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Speaker 1: I think the brutality part of it.

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Speaker 3: What are the things that you can pick out from

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Speaker 3: what you remember, either the emotion or the scene kind

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Speaker 3: of lover's lane, but not really, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: what are the things that you pick out that just

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Speaker 3: go man, that is exactly the setup for a good

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Speaker 3: thriller minus the serial killer. I mean, what are the

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Speaker 3: things around you that just kind of go, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: this gives me the chills.

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Speaker 2: I need to write it down. Well, a guy coming

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Speaker 2: out of the out of the woods, wearing a hood,

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Speaker 2: carrying a knife at a lover's lane. That's the instant

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Speaker 2: flip of the situation from a beautiful afternoon by Lake

301
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Speaker 2: barry Essa to absolute terror and realizing your life, your

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Speaker 2: world has either completely changed permanently or is at an end.

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Speaker 2: That was part of it the killing in San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: As far as Zodiac of the cab driver you know

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Speaker 2: to stop signed late at night, there are a number

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Speaker 2: of police drawings of the zodiac, and the most famous

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Speaker 2: ones were given by patrol officers from the San Francisco

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Speaker 2: Police Department who saw him walking away from the murder

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Speaker 2: scene and did not know it at the time that

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Speaker 2: that was who they were looking at. And it was

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Speaker 2: only later that everybody put two and two and two

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Speaker 2: together and realized that the man that these two officers

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Speaker 2: who were rushing to the scene, this person they had

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Speaker 2: seen strolling away, had to have been the killer. So

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Speaker 2: the fact of how close they came, how calm the

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Speaker 2: killer was, how it was this terrible missed chance to

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Speaker 2: stop something that was just spreading poor throughout the entire region.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of like, would you do the same now?

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Speaker 2: How could you set that up in a story? How

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Speaker 2: could you turn that into even more suspense and drama

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Speaker 2: and catharsis if you need it.

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Speaker 3: As I said, what's kind of different about writing the

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Speaker 3: fictionalized angle of this is you do have to get

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Speaker 3: into the emotions of the victims, and the setup has

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Speaker 3: to be compelling. In any good mystery, you have to

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Speaker 3: have you have to get in the heads of the

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Speaker 3: victims and survivors and the killer were at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I think in order for us to care about those characters, right,

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Speaker 1: you do.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you do not necessarily need to get into the

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Speaker 2: killer's head, and a lot of books don't. Famously, Thomas

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Speaker 2: Harris is the Silence of the Lambs is never in

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Speaker 2: Hannibal Elect's point of view, but we feel like we

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Speaker 2: know him. But getting into their point of view and

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Speaker 2: getting readers to care about these characters, and because they

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Speaker 2: become real people to us when we write. They're characters,

337
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Speaker 2: but we feel like they're actual humans. You know, you

338
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,360
Speaker 2: can make readers interested in a story by raising their curiosity.

339
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Speaker 2: And that's the puzzles, the cryptograms, the weird messages that

340
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Speaker 2: the profit and unsub sense to leaves for the police

341
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Speaker 2: to find that that becomes like the readers trying to

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Speaker 2: see can we figure it out before the police do.

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Speaker 2: But if you can make the characters people that readers

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Speaker 2: care about, then that makes it a much richer story.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned a Golden State killer, and I will

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Speaker 2: say that I can segue a little bit toward that.

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Speaker 2: It became a case that also influenced on Sub quite

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Speaker 2: a bit, and a lot of that had to do

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Speaker 2: with the victims and finding out a lot about them.

350
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Speaker 2: For a reason that I never in a million years

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Speaker 2: suspected when I started writing on SUB. There had been

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Speaker 2: two double murders in the neighborhood where I grew up.

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Speaker 2: Wait where were you? Galada, California, oh Okay, December nineteen

354
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Speaker 2: seventy nine and July nineteen eighty one, two couples were

355
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Speaker 2: or slaughtered at home and the city was just baffled

356
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Speaker 2: and unsettled. And I remember my parents mentioning it with

357
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Speaker 2: sort of a gallows humor. Kind of like trying to

358
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Speaker 2: calm the kids down, like, you don't need to worry

359
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: about us, because you know what people are saying. These

360
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 2: were couples who weren't married, so you know your mom

361
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 2: and I have been hitched for decades. Don't even worry

362
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 2: nobody's going to come after us. Is this a Catholic thing? Again?

363
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,880
Speaker 2: That could be. Now, this isn't my parents trying to say, now,

364
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 2: don't worry about us. Whoever this guy is, nobody would

365
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: ever come after us. And those cases were never solved.

366
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Speaker 2: And it was when I was writing unsub that I

367
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 2: just by chance took a look at one of the

368
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: local Santa Barbara newspapers and there was a story saying

369
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 2: Sheriff's office seeks information about these killings. Now this was,

370
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,199
Speaker 2: you know, decades later, and it said these killings have

371
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 2: now been tied to what was then being called the

372
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 2: original Nightstalker, East Aria rapist, Original night Stalker. And this

373
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: came like a bolt of lightning, and I just could

374
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Speaker 2: not believe it initially. And they were saying they at

375
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Speaker 2: that time they thought perhaps they had potential evidence that

376
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,199
Speaker 2: the killer might have been a construction worker who was

377
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,439
Speaker 2: building a strip mall near the killings at the time,

378
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: and I just remember sitting there staring at it and

379
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: my head just throbbing because both of those double murders

380
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,479
Speaker 2: were within walking distance of my parents' house. It was

381
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 2: less than a quarter of a mile away.

382
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Speaker 1: And they were still around. Were they still alive?

383
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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, they were still around. I knew my brother

384
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: and sister had been living at home at the time.

385
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 2: It just threw men. And then when I went to

386
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 2: visit my family, I was standing in the kitchen of

387
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 2: my brother's new house out the window, and I realized

388
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: that one of the crime scenes was right across the street.

389
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 2: Oh gosh. At the time, he didn't know, and I

390
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: just remember like standing there like a statue, thinking should

391
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: I say anything to him about this? The first thing

392
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 2: that horrified me was I remembered the murders, but I

393
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 2: could not initially remember the names of the victims. And

394
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,880
Speaker 2: of course now it's impossible to forget doctor Offerman and

395
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 2: doctor Manning and Shear Domingo and Gregory Sanchez. And then

396
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: to realize that there was this statewide rampage of murders

397
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 2: that had come within it felt like a breath of

398
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 2: my parents' house and it turns out I think it

399
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: really did that it became it became, it did become

400
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: an obsession. So I did tell my brother. We ended

401
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 2: up trying to figure out.

402
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 3: Who it might have been, like somebody you guys might

403
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: have known. Yes, of course we did. Gosh, okay, wait,

404
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: where are you in your writing career? Are you knee

405
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: deep and thriller? At this point, I am.

406
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: I was, you know, I had a dozen novels out,

407
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 2: I was working on un sub with this whole thing

408
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: about the zodiac which had like stuck in the back

409
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 2: of my mind for years. And then to find out

410
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: that there was this more recent, horrifying series of events

411
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 2: that was not distant, was not in the news, it

412
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 2: was not on television. It was easy to get there

413
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: across the footbridge where I had, you know, played as

414
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 2: a little kid, and up the creek where we caught

415
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 2: tadpoles when when I was you know, when I was

416
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: in grade school, and my brother and I initially were like,

417
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: who is this? Could this have been somebody that we know?

418
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: We've since found out that, of course, we were not

419
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: the first people to think along these lines. We took

420
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 2: a look at every place that these killings had taken

421
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: place in Golita. There had initially been an attack where

422
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: the Golden skate killer would come in and he liked

423
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 2: to tie up couples. He liked to attack couples, not initially,

424
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: but he attacked couples and he would tie them up.

425
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 2: Often he would tell the if there's a man, he

426
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: would tell the man that don't make a sound, or

427
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 2: I will kill till your partner. He'd stack dishes on

428
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 2: the man's back and tell him to lie still on

429
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 2: the floor because if he heard one of the one

430
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 2: of the dishes fall off, he would know the guy

431
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: was moving and then he would he would murder the

432
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: murder the woman and he would take her in and

433
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 2: sexually assault her. And one of these attacks in Golita

434
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: up the same creek from where the others. The others

435
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: were and the guy, the man who was tied up,

436
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: decided to make up where he heard the assailants say

437
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: saying I'm going to kill you both, and the guy said, okay,

438
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 2: if that's if that's what you're going to do, I'm

439
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: not going to lie here, and he jumped up. He

440
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,479
Speaker 2: was strip naked, bound with zip ties and he managed

441
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,360
Speaker 2: to get outside screaming for help, and his next door

442
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: neighbor was an FBI agent who heard the cries for

443
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,120
Speaker 2: help and came out. At this point, the attacker realized

444
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: that he was he was not going to succeed, so

445
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: he ran. He jumped on a bicycle and he went

446
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: racing through the neighborhood in the dark of night. The

447
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 2: FBI guy got into his car and gave chase and

448
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 2: lost him after a couple of blocks. And that couple

449
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 2: were the last people that the killer let survive.

450
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 3: Wow.

451
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: So it got to the place where my brother and

452
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: I would like, let's take a walk around the neighborhood.

453
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: Let's look and see where this guy could have been

454
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: doing his you know, where he could have been hiding.

455
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: Where did he hide the where did he hide his bicycle?

456
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: How did he escape? And he got to the place

457
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: where I took a Google satellite map and I marked

458
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 2: spots around every place where the killer had attacked, you know,

459
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 2: having it at Bakenya and told tech and where he

460
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: shot a dog on the footbridge, and where he attacked

461
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 2: the couple on Windsor you know, on on Windsor Lane,

462
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 2: and where the guy rode his bicycle and it became

463
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: clear against all that I marked, like where my parents lived,

464
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: where my brother now lives, where my best friend lived,

465
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: in around the corner from the first attack, where the

466
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: one of the ushers in our wedding lived, right on

467
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: the street where the bicycle escaped, from where my husband

468
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: was living in college, as this guy probably got out

469
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 2: of there. And at that point I kind of said,

470
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 2: maybe I need to back off, because my brother and

471
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: I had, well, we thought we'd figured out who it

472
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 2: could have been. Were not the only people who thought that.

473
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: You thought it was a guy named Wayne Glasby who

474
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: had gone to my high school or high school, and

475
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: his family lived around the corner from us, and they

476
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: were kind of the family in the neighborhood that were rough,

477
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: and there were four boys. We were pretty certain the

478
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: large portion of the family was involved in criminal activity,

479
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: and so we thought, well, Wayne looked very much like

480
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: one of the identicat drawings of the Golden State Killer.

481
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: Of course, then we found the blogs and the chat

482
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: rooms and everything where we realized, oh, four hundred other

483
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: people and Gilley have also come up with this theory.

484
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: It was only later after well, you know very well

485
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,479
Speaker 2: that the Golden State Killer was finally identified on Masses

486
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: Jesseph di'angelo by jenetic genealogy, and thank god, arrested, And

487
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 2: it really made a difference to my family to think

488
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: that there wasn't any chance that this guy could ever

489
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: come back, that this seemingly sunny neighborhood that had this

490
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 2: pall fall over it now felt clear again, at least

491
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: from that threat. But it was later when I listened

492
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 2: to the podcast The Man in the Window by the

493
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: Los Angeles Times. This was after, of course, i'd read

494
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: the LA magazine series by Michelle McNamara about where she

495
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: came up with the name Golden State Killer and I'll

496
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: be Gone in the Dark.

497
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: Did you find her blog too? Michelle McNamara's blog.

498
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: I initially found the LA Magazine articles and which were

499
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 2: stunning and helpful and fed my relentless obsession with this case.

500
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: And after the killer was arrested and I listened to

501
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: the LA Times podcast, it suggested that not only were

502
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: my brother and I convinced that at one point that

503
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: Wayne Clasby had been the killer and everybody else on

504
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: the chat room, but so had the Santa Barbara Sheriff's office,

505
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: and my brother and I realized that he could not

506
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: have been the killer because he and one of his

507
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: brothers were killed in a drug deal in a beach

508
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 2: in Mexico. Oh wow, before the final killings took place. However,

509
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department closed the case at that point they

510
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 2: thought that he had done it.

511
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 3: How does that shift your thinking about Zodiac and your

512
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: original premise? What was the difference for you between what

513
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: Zodiac was doing and what Golden State Killer was doing

514
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: as far as the emotion or the mystery or the

515
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: thriller aspect of it. Was a Golden State Killer turning

516
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: in that direction with that kind of like up the

517
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: game of the scaredness or what would it be?

518
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 2: It up my own terror. And one thing that I

519
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: that ended up going into unsub was that Zodiac taunted

520
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: the media and the police and wanted to spread general

521
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: panic in the Bay Area. Golden State Killer directly taunted

522
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: his victims and the survivors. Yeah. Sometimes when he had

523
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: raped someone and left them alive, then he would call

524
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: and leave them messages, and you know, the answering machines

525
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: recorded these messages. If you know, it was this horrifying

526
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: whisper if I'm going to kill you I'm going to

527
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: kill you. I'm going to kill you, and that sadism

528
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: I thought was part of what defined the Golden State Killer,

529
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: and I think that went into sub as well as

530
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: some of the some of the actual physical evidence and

531
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: stuff that I had discovered about the Golden State Killer.

532
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: That you know, a map was found near one of

533
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: the crime scenes which was like, look like a map

534
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: of a suburban neighborhood with the word punishment written on

535
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: the back of it, And so that kind of goes

536
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: into unsub as well, and the whole idea that figuring

537
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: out that the killer was driving into a neighborhood but

538
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: then using creeks culvert storm drains to cloak himself against

539
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 2: being found out. I used that and sub as well.

540
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: So that was a bit of catharsis, I think to

541
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: try to say, Okay, at least when I wrote that book,

542
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: we can have Caitlin try to try to figure this out,

543
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: and she's going to unmask this guy in the end,

544
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: even if at the time nobody knew who the Golden

545
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: State Killer was.

546
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 3: Does so the aspect of sexual assault inside your home, right,

547
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: I mean, you're vulnerable when you're taking some private time

548
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: and making out in the woods, but in your own home,

549
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: like in Golden State, and there's a sexual assault component.

550
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: Did that make you think differently about the motivations of

551
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: your killer and also just the motivations of Zodiac versus

552
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: Joseph DiAngelo.

553
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: It did, and that's an excellent point to unpack. I

554
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: deliberately decided that the killer in un the Profit was

555
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 2: not committing sexual assaults. There is such an aspect of

556
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: the novel that does feature the trying to decipher cryptic

557
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: messages and the symbolism that part of me thought that

558
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: sexual assault is so cruel so in face even a

559
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 2: different way, that I did not want to do anything

560
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: that might seem to be gratuitously playing on that for

561
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: entertainment in the novel. But definitely to Angelo, yeah, use

562
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: that as an absolute means of trying to degrade and

563
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: gain power over his victims, which as of course extremely disturbing.

564
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that Paul talks about

565
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: when we talk about motivation of killers, he talks about

566
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: the sexual as sought aspect of some of these serial killers.

567
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: And people will say it's about control, it's not about sex,

568
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: and he says, no, it's about sex. Too, it's both,

569
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: And so that makes me think about You've got these

570
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: two similar killers that you're sort of, you know, drawing

571
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: really as emotion out of more than notes. You know,

572
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: it's like, what are the things that will terrify you

573
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: and you know, make your heart race? So I think

574
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: about that, like the difference between Zodiac and Golden State

575
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: killers sometimes, and it's different ways of evoking terror in people.

576
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: Have you handled in any of your books sexual assaults

577
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: since you have very strong female characters.

578
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: I have in the second on sub novel, Into the

579
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: Black Nowhere, the killer in that story is drawn from

580
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy. There's nothing explicit in the in either the

581
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: victims or the killer's point of view of those assaults

582
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 2: in that book, but it adds to the weight. It

583
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 2: adds to the weight that some families feel sometimes, I think,

584
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 2: especially if the victim had a male partner, husband, a

585
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: father who felt like this was an invasion of even

586
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: a different, more personal, more visceral level that they might

587
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: wanted to have tried to protect protector from. It's so

588
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 2: ugly that somehow sexual assault feel writing about that feels

589
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: uglier than writing about murder. Yeah, it is.

590
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: It's harder and I think in a way too.

591
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: You know, my first book was about a serial killer

592
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: named John Reginald Christy, and he sexually assaulted women. You know,

593
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: he would kind of drug them but with gas with

594
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 3: carbon monoxide from the top of his stove, and then

595
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 3: they would black out. And when I wrote that book,

596
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 3: which is a nonfiction book, I thought, how do I

597
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: do this without triggering people? And so I ended up

598
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: having to do it from the victims, wanting to do

599
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 3: it based on trials, you know, his confessions and all

600
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: kinds of stuff in their families from the victim's point

601
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: of view, and for me, it was simply like, they

602
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 3: sit down, they think they're getting this treatment to you know,

603
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 3: this like a vic vapor rub type treatment where they

604
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 3: would breathe it in and it would help their bronchitis,

605
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: and then you know, it knocks them out and so

606
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 3: the last thing they know, the victims know, is they

607
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: black out and then they wake up and he's planting

608
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: plants and stuff above them, and then you know at

609
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: that point they're dead. And I just skip over all

610
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: the details because I don't think you have to tread

611
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: over those details in order for people to understand the

612
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 3: credible horror that the victims must have gone through. And

613
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: for me, the idea of re traumatizing anybody I think

614
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: is so difficult. Is that when you're dealing, like you,

615
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: with these true crime cases that have that sort of aspect,

616
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 3: That's what I was thinking about. You know, that's an

617
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: added layer a threat and terror exactly.

618
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: So I have chosen deliberately to to avoid that, certainly

619
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: in the in the in the novel that Drew from

620
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: Drew from Bundy, and even in my most recent novel,

621
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: shadow Heart, which is also in the series that that

622
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 2: killer is drawn from Samuel Little, who drew sketches of

623
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: of his victims, and I, yeah, didn't go into any

624
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: detail about any assaults that the the fictional killer had

625
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 2: had committed, just because that's not what the story's about.

626
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: And I think I wish in a lot of ways

627
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: people would would do that more.

628
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 3: I had a writer email me after he read my book,

629
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 3: the first book, and he a mail writer, and he said,

630
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: I need your advice. I'm writing a non fiction book

631
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 3: that I think is really important. In it it talks

632
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 3: about sexual assault and I'm a man and I don't

633
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 3: know how to handle this, you know, I mean, how

634
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 3: do I And it was not fiction, you know, I

635
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: mean he he just didn't actually know.

636
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 2: What to include. He was scared to death.

637
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: And I've had several male writers say that too, how

638
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 3: do I do this? And I think the solution for

639
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 3: some of my friends, like Brian Burrows one of them,

640
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: is you just have a gazillion women read it and

641
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: just say you know, this is what this is, what

642
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 3: to include or not to include. But you know, if

643
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 3: we get back to the kind of inspiration, does your

644
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: profit get away?

645
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: Yes? And now if I tell you anymore, I'll give

646
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: away a twist. No, don't do that.

647
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: But you know, the idea of then carrying somebody or

648
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 3: the image or somebody or the spirit of a killer

649
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: through a series or maybe even another book.

650
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: I wonder how that could be handled.

651
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 3: I mean with that, is that something that you have

652
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 3: experienced where you're where you need to then develop a

653
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: serial killer or a really bad character where I think

654
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 3: you know a lot of people are more comfortable developing

655
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: a good character, but like, what do you do if

656
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: you have to have a bad character that go through

657
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 3: several books, like Hannibal Lecter goes through several books.

658
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: It's fun come on with developing. No developing villains is fun.

659
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: A thriller is only as strong as the antagonist. Courses

660
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: of antagonism make the protagonists rise to meet the occasion. So,

661
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: and if you're going to have an effective antagonist, they

662
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: need to have some kind of human you know, charismatic

663
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: features that that they're not just incredibly repulsive. I mean

664
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: they have to have some kind of strength, intellect, charm,

665
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: some kind of cunning, a sense of humor. Remember that,

666
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: you know your villain has They've got their own problems.

667
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 2: They've got they yeah, they've got pets to feed, they've

668
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: got you know, they've got to pick up the eye

669
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: cleaning and you know, take mom to the doctor or

670
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: whatever it is. So you try to keep them human.

671
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: And I've never had a character. I mean, there are

672
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: characters that carry over, but I've kept them mysterious because

673
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 2: that's part of the continuing storyline in the series is

674
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: you know, what's what is still going on and you

675
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 2: know mystery caps readers coming back. I agree.

676
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 3: So I read a quote from an author, a novelist,

677
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: who said, any good novelist, really really good novelist, has

678
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: really bad relationships because you have to find characters from somewhere,

679
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 3: and he said, I can't even tell you how many

680
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: people are mad at me because they read my books

681
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 3: and clearly see my characteristics popping up in your damn books.

682
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: How do you well, I mean, I guess with an

683
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 3: unknown serial killer, that's one thing.

684
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: But how do you develop care characters?

685
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 3: I mean they have to be from some people you know,

686
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: and then of course you're specific with Ted Bundy.

687
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: You know, how do you know when to draw a

688
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 2: line on stuff like that? I've actually found that when

689
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: I've drawn characteristics from real life, a lot of times

690
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,439
Speaker 2: people don't recognize themselves. Okay, So if that's what you're

691
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 2: thinking about when you're writing fiction, I wouldn't I wouldn't

692
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 2: stress over it too much. You never want to drop

693
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: someone you know wholesale into into a book and then

694
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: have something terrible happen to them or make them just

695
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 2: completely annoying, because number one, that cramps your creativity if

696
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: you're trying to trying to duplicate them from real life

697
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: into the story. And second, it misleads you as the

698
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: writer from trying to develop the best course of action

699
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: for the characters in the story versus what you're really

700
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 2: picky bitch next door neighbor would do when the frisbee

701
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: comes over the fence for the third time, and you

702
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 2: know you're not gonna make them into a into a

703
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: super villain, it'll be boring. But I've actually never had

704
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 2: any I mean, and you can find so many people

705
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 2: just you can. You can find people on a city bus.

706
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 2: You watch someone who gets on. You can just see

707
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: the way they walk, the way they look around, the

708
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 2: way they carry themselves, what they're saying and conversation.

709
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 3: Note to listeners, be careful what you say, because there

710
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 3: could be a thriller writer sitting next to you on

711
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 3: the bus, turning you into a character.

712
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: Ab Absolutely, I've only ever had someone decide they were

713
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: a character in my novels and they weren't. Oh and

714
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 2: gotten gotten gotten a message like, boy, this sounds like

715
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: someone I know, Hey, you know where'd you think you

716
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: got off talking about me like this?

717
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 3: And I'm like, did you tell them? I have other

718
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 3: narcissistic people in my life.

719
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 2: I tried to make it clear that it was not

720
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 2: them at all, and that actually that was a villain

721
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: based on based on someone I loosely pay on someone

722
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: I knew, and I was horrified that this other person

723
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: thought that it was it was them. H I could,

724
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: but I couldn't say. I couldn't like point them to

725
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: the to like a name and say, no, it wasn't you.

726
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 2: It was this other, this other person. But I tried

727
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,280
Speaker 2: to convince them that that it had it was totally coincidental.

728
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 3: So, you know, I find that the not the best,

729
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: but sort of really compelling good true crime stories are

730
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 3: the ones that that novelist or mystery thriller writers dig

731
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 3: into because it's got to be a really good story

732
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: for for you guys to use it as any kind

733
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 3: of inspiration. So you know, with Megan Abbott, I had

734
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 3: no idea about the Ponzi scheme.

735
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 2: That was fascinating. I mean she really and she was

736
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: into it.

737
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 3: She knew all the details and and you know, like

738
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: like what you said, she kind of detoured, of course off,

739
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 3: which is what you're supposed to do.

740
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: I'm wondering.

741
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: I know that you've kind of dug into BTK, Dennis Raider,

742
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: You've dug into Ted Bundy, and you know, those guys

743
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: are sort of to me, they're sort of singular.

744
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: There are these outliers.

745
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 3: Part of it is the taunting, and of course everybody

746
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,399
Speaker 3: says Ted Bundy's charm and intelligence and all of that.

747
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 3: Are there other people who you haven't written about where

748
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: you sort of made a mental note like do you

749
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 3: have a sticky somewhere that's just like, hey, think about

750
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: these people or this kind of case next.

751
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: They're always cases coming up. I actually don't have someone

752
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 2: in my mind right now because I think maybe I

753
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 2: just wanted to cleanse myself a little.

754
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 3: Bit about a woman we've got there are women killers

755
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: out there? Or is that less interesting?

756
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: No, it's fascinating. And actually one of my book events

757
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 2: in Austin, my cousin just hands shot up during Q

758
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 2: and A and he's like, so are you ever going

759
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: to have a woman be the villain? Saye read my

760
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 2: next book? So again I can't. I can't give away everything.

761
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: And I think about that because do you write from

762
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 3: the killer's point of view also or is that part

763
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 3: of it at all?

764
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: Occasionally sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But in

765
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: the unsett series, because it's in third person point of

766
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: view and has multiple points of view already, I have

767
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: gone into the killer's point of view a number of

768
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: times deliberately so and that always helps me get to

769
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 2: know them a little bit better.

770
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was trying to think about that. I don't

771
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 3: know if there are a lot of men who write

772
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 3: from a woman's point of view. I definitely think there are.

773
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know, Maybe I'm wrong, but I

774
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 3: would think it's more women who write from a men's

775
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 3: point of view. And then I thought, how do you

776
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 3: get into the head of a serial killer and what

777
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 3: they're thinking?

778
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: Because you know, one of the things I.

779
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 3: Think that makes such great characters, like with Patricia Cornwell

780
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 3: and Scarpetta, is being able to actually kind of be

781
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: there and find parallels. I don't know how you find

782
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 3: parallel with a character that's a serial killer.

783
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: Well, this is the right what you know question? Right? Yes,

784
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 2: there you go. Any of us who've written written fiction,

785
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: none of us have committed murder, I certainly hope, but

786
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 2: we all find ways to write about it. I think

787
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 2: if you dig deep into human nature, sometimes it's tough

788
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 2: to try to put yourself into the headspace of someone

789
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 2: who sees the world from a twisted point of view.

790
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: But that's what you've got to do. If you're going

791
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,720
Speaker 2: to write from the from the villain's perspective, You remember

792
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: that everybody has a reason for doing what they what

793
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: they do, and even the villains in your books are

794
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 2: convinced that they are justified. Yeah, they've come up with

795
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: some preposterous, monstrous reason to convince themselves of that. But

796
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: in their own mind, they are doing what they need

797
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: to and that it is it's the right course of action,

798
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: and they are the stars of their own you know,

799
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: their own mental show, and the heroes of their own lives.

800
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: So remembering that as you as you write, you can

801
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: kind of try to try to see your way into

802
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: understanding how someone could be convinced of the righteousness of

803
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: something that the rest of us want to throw them

804
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: in prison for.

805
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 3: You know, one of the criticisms of true crime, one

806
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 3: of my criticisms is the idea that there are a

807
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 3: lot of fans, consumers and content creators who glorify the killers,

808
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: you know, and so they come off looking like I mean,

809
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: some good examples that some of the shows that you

810
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 3: can see on the streamers where you know, they come

811
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 3: off looking a certain way and there's like a sex appeal,

812
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 3: which I think is always weird. How do you know

813
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 3: what that line is? When you're writing fiction when you

814
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: can literally make this person, this killer, look any way

815
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 3: that you want, how do you know that you're not

816
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 3: putting out this image that you know being a killer

817
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 3: is cool or you're a criminal mastermind or something like that. Like,

818
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 3: is there a responsibility at all with fiction writers?

819
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 2: I put the responsibility on myself. Yeah, And I think

820
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: having somebody else read it to make sure that if

821
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: you've tried to create a charismatic, plausible villain that readers

822
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: turn away from that they will want to follow at

823
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 2: least to see what happens, that you're not making that

824
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: person evil. That person's evil seem sparkly and fun. You

825
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: just have to You just have to watch yourself because

826
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: if you find yourself falling in love with your villain,

827
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: since they're all drawn from our own experience and unconscious,

828
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: I think you need to interrogate yourself pretty deeply about

829
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: why you find it delightful at some level and back

830
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 2: away from it pretty sharply.

831
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 3: I interviewed the author of Victorian Psycho, who really, I mean,

832
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 3: that book really is so violent, it's really kind of unreal,

833
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 3: and you really do kind of get into the head

834
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 3: of the killer because it's her point of view and

835
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 3: all of that, And so I think about that gone

836
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: girl where you're sort of read especially use women, where

837
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 3: you're reading and the killer is a woman or the

838
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: deceiver as a woman, and then you're kind of going, well.

839
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: This is interesting.

840
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not repulsed by this person, but I'm

841
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 3: repulsed by basically every male killer or so I wonder

842
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 3: if there's some like reverse sexism that I'm experiencing here.

843
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 2: It's fiction, You're permitted to enjoy it, Okay.

844
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 3: I have wondered about that, you know, I mean the

845
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 3: glorifying the killer part. I definitely have. I've actually talked

846
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: to some nonfiction folks and I've said, you know, is

847
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 3: there a lesson learned from your book? Or what's the

848
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 3: big takeaway or what are you hoping people learn kind

849
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 3: of an educational standpoint. A few of them up said,

850
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 3: I don't really care about that. So I wonder if

851
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 3: there when, what is the point? What's the emotion you're

852
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 3: trying to get at? I know, fear blah blah, fear,

853
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 3: you're writing thriller, But is there anything that it's like

854
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: a female heroine or family connection or anything like that.

855
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 2: Well, certainly, and on set. That's that's those are the

856
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: two big things, the female heroine, family connection and the

857
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 2: idea that this chaos has has risen up again, and

858
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: Caitlin takes it on her own shoulders to try to

859
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: be the one who unmasks it and stops it. So

860
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: it's a sense of compassion, it's a sense of responsibility

861
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: that she feels to try to try to put the

862
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 2: world to rights. And that's part of the ongoing theme

863
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 2: of the series is that she's convinced herself that it's

864
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 2: on her to take the world on her shoulders and

865
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: put it right, and even though intellectually she knows that

866
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: that's not the way the world works, she's going to

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00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: try to do it as much as she can. And well,

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00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: I think for mystery crime thriller, it's I mean, I've

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00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 2: had people ask me like, well, do you just love violence?

870
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 2: Are you just trying to glorify violence? That why you

871
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 2: write all this stuff? And I say, I hope not.

872
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: And the thing about certainly American and most European and

873
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 2: British crime thrillers is that we write from a place

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00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: where we have a justice system that we hope is

875
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: trying its best to protect us. And put things to write,

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00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 2: and the crime and thriller genre generally comes from a

877
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: place of believing that the concept of justice is real,

878
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: and that when your world falls apart, when some kind

879
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: of spirit of evil is manifested and creates chaos and

880
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: tears the world apart, that it's okay, it's right, it's

881
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 2: good for others to stand up and try to stitch

882
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 2: the world back together, to put a stop to it,

883
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: and that it is possible, as imperfect and irregular as

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00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 2: that might be. So, I think crime thrillers are often

885
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 2: hopeful in that sense, that because we can put the

886
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 2: world to rights, at least at least partly in a story,

887
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 2: where often in the real world we can't count on that.

888
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 3: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

889
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 3: audio versions of my books The Sinners All Bow, The

890
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 3: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

891
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 3: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

892
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 3: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

893
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 3: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

894
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

895
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 3: is Alexis Mrosi. Our Associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

896
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 3: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

897
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:37,240
Speaker 3: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

898
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 3: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

899
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold

900
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 3: More and if you know of a historical crime that

901
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

902
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 3: email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll

903
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 3: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

904
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 3: Words