WEBVTT - “Burn Down Master’s House” feat. Clay Cane | Angela Rye SoloPod 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.280 Native Lampard is a production of iHeart Radio in partnership 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:04.720 with Reason Choice Media. 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:25.920 Welcome Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome. Ours into. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:36.919 Remembering is indeed an act of resistance. This is Angela 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.400 Riot's Native Lampid. It's the solo pod day on Tuesday, y'all, 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.080 and I am thrilled to be joined today by someone 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:48.080 who's a dear brother, a gifted writer and author, a 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.400 New York Times bestselling author in fact of the grift. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:58.040 He has just released a novel called Burn Down Master's House. 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.000 And y'all know that this is so timely. It is 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:05.319 my privilege and honor to bring to Native Lampid my 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:06.880 dear friend Clay Caine. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.160 What's up. It's such an honor to be here. Thank you. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:14.440 I love Native Lampod and Angela, thank you for doing 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.119 this on this pub day release date means so much 0:01:17.160 --> 0:01:17.760 to me. Thank you. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:20.080 Oh, I'm so thrilled to do it. 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.280 So first of all, can we talk about how this 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:26.080 book is prophetic, Like the fact that I don't know 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.920 if you were thinking of all this when you wrote 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:30.760 it or when you started, but I'd love to know 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:35.600 when you started and how much of this that we're 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:38.120 experiencing now, this and I'm saying this, I'm in Minnesota 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:38.600 right now. 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:40.920 Yeah, So how much of this were. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.520 We experiencing when you started writing this incredible novel? 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.000 Well, I began writing it when I was in college, 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:49.160 like twenty four years ago. So I began writing versions 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.680 of it. But you know how publishing is, Angela, you 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.600 know how media is. People said, no, that's not going 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:56.240 to work, that's not you know, no one wants to 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:58.840 read that. So when The Griff came out, I was 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.240 able to have some aton me of what what I 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.760 could do next, and some folks wanted me to do 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:05.840 like The Griff Part two. I said, no, no, no, no, 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.960 I want to do something different. Because I went to Rutgers. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.880 My major was Black Studies and I was so inspired 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:16.000 by historical fiction books. It helped me to learn better, 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:20.360 to digest this knowledge better. So when I was writing it, 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.240 though in full last year, Trump had just won and 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.760 I just felt like I could see what was happening. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.480 Because I know our history, the history rhymes. I knew 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.800 at some point people would would rise up, and it 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:38.959 pretty much happened immediately. And then I'm thinking about what's 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:43.679 happening right now in Minnesota. And this book ultimately is 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.640 about the people who rise up against their government that's 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:54.000 enacting hell on them. They're called the terrorists, enslaved people 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.799 who fought back, they were called the domestic terrorists. They 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:02.839 were called unpatriotic, they said, they were called animals. Right, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.480 So all of this kind of rhymes. It all kind 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.120 of connects. There's a connectivity there. And the thing is 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.440 is what I've learned from these characters, based on real 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.400 people who have been erased in our history, is if 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.800 they lead you to believe there's no point in fighting back, 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.320 you won't even try. If they convince you that resisting 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.160 is futile, you're going to give up. So in these people, 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.359 in the worst of circumstances, they found radical hope, They 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.560 found a light. And I think that there's so many 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:41.800 blueprints throughout history. These people that I unearthed from the archives. 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.600 I think they represent that we have to believe that 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.640 we could fight. It starts here in our mind. How 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.160 we're going to burn down Master's House today. Master's House 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:57.760 is these tech bros, the billionaire CEOs, these rich guys 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.480 at the top. That's Master House right now. And what 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.120 can we do to burn it down, to reinvent it, 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.080 to start from the ashes? So it all made sense, 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.320 and you're right in this moment, it's just hitting me. 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:17.600 You know, I'm curious because you have on that trailer 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.320 remembering is resistance is a form of resistance, And I'm 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:26.440 curious to know your thoughts on you know, young people especially, 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.160 you'll say like, I'm not my ancestors, and. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.560 We like you really not like we see that one way. 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:34.719 They see it a completely different way that like they're like, 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.000 run up on me if you want to, and we're like, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.440 you can run up on them either. So I want 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.640 to know for like the young folks who would feel like, oh, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.800 I'm not inspired by you know, a narrative about an 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.839 ensulaved person. It makes me feel like, you know, I 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.520 can't ever overcome. What do you say to that narrative, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:54.680 especially because a lot of that comes from the grifters. Yeah, 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:56.560 what do you say? What do you say to that? 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.159 Well, you know, listen, that's intentional them to think that way. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.120 And I'm going to tell you something. I'm forty eight 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.760 years old. When I was a young kid in West Philly, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:09.919 I thought the same thing. You know, why because nobody 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.400 taught me anything else. I didn't know about these people. 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.280 Everybody in the world should know who Charity Butler is, 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.160 who's in this book, who Josephine Webb is, who's in 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.320 this book. We should know who these people are. So 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.159 they think that because they've been taught to think that 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:29.320 white supremacy begins in the home, solidified in the school, 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:34.080 and etched and stone immedia, you got people on CNN 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:40.840 fitness influencers babbling about slavery like she knows something. So 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.040 it don't surprise me that some people think I am 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.560 not because you don't know your ancestors. My family was 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.400 enslaved in Gooshland, Virginia. The book begins in Gooshland as 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:55.040 a tribute to my family. That's where my family was enslaved, 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.839 and I learn so much about me. So my hope 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.200 is with this book is that you will know who 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.680 your ancestors are. It wasn't and you know, we love 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.440 Nat Turner and Denmark VC, but it wasn't just them, 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.120 that's right. It was every day fighting back. So that's 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:11.960 what I say to that you think that because you 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.840 don't know, and you've been taught to not know, you know, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.000 you know, we grown Angela. When I was younger, there 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.200 was no Google, there was no Internet, you know what 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.800 I mean. I didn't know a lot of stuff until 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.560 I went to until I went to college at Rutgers University, 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.359 and that changed my life. So then, when you know, 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.600 remembering is an act of resistance, and that's one of 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:34.159 the themes in the book. The other theme in the book 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.039 is a lie that all the characters say. Don't let 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:40.640 them take what they can't touch. Don't let them take 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.200 what they can't touch. There are certain things they can't 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.240 touch when you remember. When you know, maybe a nonfiction 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.200 book is too much for you to read. But this 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:54.680 here through storytelling, which is very ancestral. Using storytelling to teach, right, 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.680 I think it can liberate you. I think it can 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.239 make you say things through a different lens. And speaking 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.480 of grifters, I do have a black Enslaver in this book. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:11.320 And let me just say there's some similarities into Congress. 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.160 There are some similarities there. So there's layers in this. 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.600 There's always been a grift, there's always been a hustle, 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.280 even in the worst of times. So I think people 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.160 think that and I thought that once because I just 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.680 didn't know. And I hope this historical fiction does that 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.800 work to teach for the. 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.000 People who, especially in this era right now, are feeling 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.080 hopeless like Okay, well I went out to vote in 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.920 my circumstances didn't change, or they never changed. I didn't 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:41.040 go to vote this time, and now they're way worse. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:43.800 And no matter what, inspite of all of it, my 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.800 ad prices are still too high. When you said, when 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.240 you think about what it means, like the fabric of 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.440 who we are, the tapestry of who we are, don't 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.600 let them take what they can't touch. What are some 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.160 examples of that without giving you know too much away, 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.480 what are some examples of the things that we hold 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.560 that they can't touch? Besides our truths, because you know, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:09.680 it's the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year of 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.760 the Declaration of independence, So we hold these truths, but 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.080 our truths look a little different. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:14.520 So with us, can they. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.800 Well, one of the things I explain how one flame, 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.680 one spark can light a thousand flop fires. So a 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.840 caller on my Serious XM show said this, that knowledge 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:34.199 manages terror, seem I'm outraged by what's going on. I'm 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:39.080 sure you are as well, Angela. But my knowledge manages 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:44.080 my anxiety and manages my terror. I'm able to see 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:47.920 the similarities. You know, we know how reconstruction ended, right, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.280 we know the backlash to the civil rights movement. But 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:56.440 what I say to people who are upset about, well, 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:58.880 I voted and it didn't work out. First voting is 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.360 a long game. Just to be clear. You know, when 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.040 I was in Congress, when I'm sorry, when I was 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.800 a kid, there was no Jasmine Crockett, you know, I mean, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.920 you have backseat waters in there, but she was few 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.520 and far in between. There was no Ayata Presley, there 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.079 was no ilhan Omar. So there is some progress there. 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.040 But you know, what I tell people is that there 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:22.640 is the long game and believing that things are a 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.400 journey and they kind of come back and forth, right, 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:30.960 But you also have to not let them believe that 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.160 we're never going to get out of this. It just 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:38.200 we can't go from there. I get the frustration, but 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:40.640 the idea that we're never going to get out or 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.760 they've got all this lockdown. The only reason why the 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.880 Civil War ends isn't because good white folks got a 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:51.840 conscience woke up. It's because black folks said no more. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:54.960 The reason why we have a civil rights movement isn't 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:56.840 because linthe By Johnson was a great guy. He was 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.559 a fucking racist. Black folks said no, we're going to 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:02.680 hold you a acountable a Philip Randolph by ourd rustin. 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:07.120 They said no more. The reason why white women got 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.720 the right to vote through the suffrage movement is because 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:13.600 white women said no more. Right, So it's it's about us. 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.560 It's not the rich guy at the top. There's always 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.640 gonna be somebody pushing back. There's always gonna be somebody 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.000 uh uh saying this, this isn't gonna work. And the 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:30.760 other thing too, is then we have our internal fissures. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.600 We have our internal divisions that really tear us apart. 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:37.200 You saw that with Kamala Harris. I don't got to 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:41.800 get into all the identity bullshit that went down in 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.920 this book. And this is gonna piss some people off. 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.120 I do have characters in here who we would now 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:52.079 say are gay or queer, right, And I guess some 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:54.360 folks think gay folks has popped up when Dinah Ross 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.080 had their first hit song. I don't know, but you 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.240 know what I'm saying, but there are gay people in 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.320 these in these story what we would now call gay, 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.920 and that's important to see, like you said, the tapestry 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:08.440 of who we are. So I think if we lean 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.880 into all that and not get caught up in these 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.760 fissures and these divisions that divide us, I think that 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.560 can bring us a lot more, a lot more hope, 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:19.480 that can spark us. 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.360 You know the other thing that came to mind. 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.960 When just thinking about burning down Master's house, which is 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.920 figure TOI yeah, in this day and age, because you 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:44.439 know that's the meta with the insurrection. So I would 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:49.080 just say, when you think about actual burning down, I'm 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.439 sure we had ancestors who rebelled and took their power 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.480 back in that way. But where I have heard about 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:58.520 the burning down of things more often is from the 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:02.440 bullies from the insurrection. It's the actual domestic terrorists, which 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.280 are you know, slaveholders and the people who were poor 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.720 and white who aided and embedded slaveholders. Of course, there 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.439 were some black folks who did that too, but it's 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.200 few and far between. So I'm curious, you know, how 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.559 do we in this era where we have the opportunity 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:21.480 to burn something down and by that we mean, take 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.280 something apart that is not serving citizens period, not just 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:29.280 black folks, but citizens period, and to rebuild and reimagine 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:35.040 and redevelop and reconstruct something that feels like it is 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.720 more in service to us. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:39.480 You know. 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.720 It's like the thing that's the top of mind is 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.880 my good brother Damio Solomon Simmons is represented the Tulsa 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.080 survivors for a long time and their descendants. And of course, 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.960 you know, we just lost mother Fletcher, so there is 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:59.480 one remaining survivor. They burned that place up, burned it down, 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.880 and we've said that you want to have your own space, 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:07.000 no problem, we'll create our own space. That isn't sufficient either, culaid. 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.160 So we burn whatever this is down and we go 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.720 to rebuild and reconstruct and reimagine for us. How do 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.160 we preserve it this time? I feel like that's part 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.520 of the lesson. Our folks would want us to inherit, 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.600 you know, and like do something different with. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:30.680 You know, it's funny. We I feel like we had 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.439 less power than after the Civil War before the Civil 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:41.559 War during reconstruction and used our power more. I feel 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.439 like we have more power now and use our power less. Yeah, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:52.520 So how can we maintain these things. I think it's 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.439 about knowing your power, even in the margins. I always 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.480 get this stab. In eighteen sixty eight, and this is 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.559 before the fourteenth and fifteenth amendments, but there was reconstruction 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.400 acts that allowed some black folks to vote in the 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:10.960 former Confederacy only black men. Sadly, we had eighty percent 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:17.880 black voter turnout. Yes, can you imagine that? Eighty percent 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:23.080 black in Mississippi, in Louisiana, eighty percent black voter churnout. 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:29.400 That completely reinvents the South locally locally now. So one 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.000 of the things when I tell people like you were 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.680 saying earlier that things never changed, I said, but we're 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.160 not using our full capacity. We're not even using it 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.880 to the margins. Yeah, right, we're not even So there's 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.640 that element of using our full capacity once you get 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:51.120 the power. Some people have described the era of Barack 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.600 Obama being a reconstruction type era. You know, I get that, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.160 But if you believe in that, were you using your 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.560 full capacity during that time? I mean, it's kind of 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.960 hard to fully was he was he using his full capacity? 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.280 Was Eric Holder using his full capacity right during that 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.120 And if they're not, how are you going to hold 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.120 them accountable. So I think the way the reason why 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:21.280 reconstruction fails isn't because you know, black folks were incompetent, 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.800 of course not. It's because there were powers that be 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:26.600 that wanted to pull back. And I believe we have 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:31.640 a better infrastructure now where we can uphold that. And 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.360 this may feel like too much work, whether it's a 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:38.160 city council meeting, a town hall meeting, your local nonprofit. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.440 Nonprofits are everything. When I was a kid, I have 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.400 my first HIV test at Planned Parenthood in Philadelphia. These 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.920 things being as involved in our communities as possible, whatever 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.160 way you could do it. You know, for me, this 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:55.280 book is an act of literary resistance, but I understand 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.040 for other people it could be something else. You got 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.560 to find out what your superpower is. Yes, and listen, 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.520 that don't mean there's going to be casualties. There's going 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.240 to be losses. This country is going to be different. 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.480 But as Sweet Honey in the Rock says, if you 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.760 want change in your life, you got to walk in 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.440 the storm. If you make it out through the other side, 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:19.720 you're going to be different. Right, So it's all of that, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:23.640 and listen, it doesn't mean if we get things back 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:27.400 to you know, progress, that it's going to stay that 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.600 way forever. I think one of the things that messes 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:34.560 me up, Angela is that a lot changed during COVID 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:36.800 and we were and I think I heard Kamala Harris 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:42.400 say this. One of the steps that we're doing is 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:43.920 some folks are trying to go back to what it 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.040 was like before COVID, and I'm like, no, I want 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.160 to be innovative. I want to be different, I want 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:52.440 to move forward. So now we're packing everybody back in 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.600 the office again, knowing that you shouldn't have to drive 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.920 an hour and a half to work and lose time 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.120 with your family and your kids. We're trying to just 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.760 make it how it was before. All I want to 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.760 do is progress. That's why I always say conservatism, what 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.440 are we trying to conserve? How can we progress forward? 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.159 So it's it's so many things there. It's for us 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.720 to work collectively. This book is not one point of view. 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:23.120 It's a collective of people. And lastly, I'll say as 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.240 far as that, as far as how do we maintain it, 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.280 we have to have radical hope. I know what may 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:32.680 sound cheesier and easier, said than done. But that is truth. 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.920 We got to have radical hope. Man, We can't we 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.199 how can you? It's like jumping into a relationship. You're like, well, 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.000 this shit ain't gonna work out, and then it falls 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:44.400 apart in six months. Well, obviously you doomed it from 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.520 the start. We got to have radical hope. And I 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.720 know it's hard, and I have friends who are struggling. 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.440 I have friends who've lost access to medication. It's definitely hard, 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.439 and you should more and be able to grieve and 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.440 go through that process. But where you're going to find 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.760 your hope, Where you're going to find community? Where are 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.280 you going to find that? So it's a collective. 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:10.399 You mentioned one of your communities a few times in Philadelphia, 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:15.520 and of course, just this past weekend we saw I 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.640 don't know who these white men were, but they were 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:25.640 authorized allegedly to take down this these plaques that communicate 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:30.880 the story of the enslaved people who George Washington owned, 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:36.600 and a number of other stories related to the Transatlantic 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:43.520 slave trade and the horrors of slavery. Your book basically 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.720 spits in the eye of the work that they were 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:50.480 doing to destroy and dismantle our history. I want you 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.480 to talk to the authors who would be scared right 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.000 now to write their conscience right, to really tell the 0:18:58.080 --> 0:18:59.959 stories that we know need to be told for us, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.000 hold on to that kind of hope that you just 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.439 talked about. They're like, oh, well, if I do this, 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.120 my book is going to be banned. They may come 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.640 after me. I may be black or blacklisted. Maybe they'll 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.840 deport media Uganda. They want to get me out of here, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.520 which you know, it could happen. Crazier things, Crazier things 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.879 have happened. But what do you say to those folks 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:20.320 who are like, how can I lean into that type 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:25.560 of resistance in writing on paper, especially in this hour 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:26.640 when it is needed so much. 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.040 Well, you have to know your craft. You have to 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:31.760 know your work. You have to know your history. If 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.560 you're going to lean into this kind of writing, or 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:39.199 whether it's writing about apartheid or whether it's about the Holocaust, 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.879 you have to know your shit. To be frank, you 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:43.399 got to know what you're doing. You got to do 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.200 your research. You know, I'm a Black studies major. I've 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.520 been writing about culture and history for a very very 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.320 long time. I have a radio show, So there's that 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.840 you got to know how to sing in tune and 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:54.480 know what I'm saying, Like, if you're going to try 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:56.720 to hit some notes, you got to know what you're doing. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.960 So there's that. There's being able, there's knowing and being informed. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.320 So you know your shit and you're on it. And 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.600 if anybody tries to, you know, clap back at you, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.000 you know what you're talking about. So there's that. You 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:10.800 got to have a passion in the feel for it. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.840 You know. I love this quote by James Baldwin. You 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.960 have to go the way your blood boils. And if 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:21.000 you go the way your blood boils, man, then everything 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:25.240 else will come, an audience will come, and you got 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.720 to be unapologetic about it. There was a fire in 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.520 me with this book, partly because my best friend was 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:36.520 dying of lupus when I was writing this book and 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.399 she was editing the book. She was an amazing editor. 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.240 She was an English lip major and she was editing 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.800 this book in her hospital bed. And this book is 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.679 out now, and although I'm a New York Times bestseller 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.399 and I have some good credentials, I'm not getting the 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:57.800 kind of media press that I should get, right because 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:00.200 of what you just said, Angela, there are people who 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:04.760 are afraid of the story, right, But in the name 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.359 of my dear friend Alexemonios, I am going to fight 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.720 for this story. I'm going to push this story. Her blood, 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.119 her soil, her root is in this story. And so 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:20.320 once I go on that path, and if you're an 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.000 author out there or any kind of creator, then I 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.880 just can't go wrong. I just can't go wrong because 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:27.760 they're always going to find a reason to come after you. 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:29.959 They're always going to find a reason to be angry 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:32.720 unless you're tap dance and then you're good. But eventually 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:36.840 that expires. Look at Kanye West, he's apologizing. Now, Nicki Minajs, 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.000 that's you. In a few years, it's coming, Nikki. You 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.199 see what Kanye just did. You might might be like 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:46.280 six months and six days, right, Oh, I changed my mind. 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.640 But yeah, so when I'm with that, I just feel unstoppable, 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:58.560 preight up covered. And like I said, this book is 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.399 based on real people, but all the secondary characters are 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:07.520 named after my ancestors in Gooselin, Virginia, So there is 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.560 something in there. So if you want to do this work, 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.080 it's a risk. A lot of folks wanted. Like I 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:15.520 said before the Griff Part two from me. I didn't 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:17.880 want to do that, but you gotta go the way 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:22.440 your blood boils. Any other way it'll be inauthentic. Any 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.879 other way, it won't even be real. So that's what 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:28.719 I say to that, and go for it. 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:30.560 I love this. I love it, Clay. 0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.879 I got to tell you that one I'm going to 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:36.760 speak into existence that this is going to be a 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:43.040 Golden Globe winning Oscar winning film. Ryan Coogler holler at us. 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:46.040 I want to be the connector of these things, like, 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:48.240 come on, like we might have to rename. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.960 It so they can get it out from distribution, but we'll. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.000 Know that it is inspired by right, right right, and 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:56.640 you're an incredible editor, and we know that the spirit, 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.160 her spirit is going to take you right through. 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:00.600 And if there's anything we can do. 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:02.920 Press y'all better pick him up because you're gonna feel 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:04.879 bad when he's on this New York Times best sellers 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:07.400 list next week and you missed it. So come on, 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.920 come on, press for y'all at and in the meantime, 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.000 we're gonna definitely lift it up on our page. I 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.000