WEBVTT - What is Mutual Assured Destruction? 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:04.480 Welcome to Stuff you should know from House Stuff Works 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:13.119 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.720 Clark with me as always as the lovely and talented 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:19.919 Charles W. Chuckers Bryant. Hi, Hey, Chuck. Hi. See you 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.960 switched hats uh from When to Win from the Chicago 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:27.360 Bears hat to the Atlanta Braves hate. That was yesterday 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.480 today today. You're a man of many hats, John, many 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.320 fan allegiances. I'm not a Bears fan. You know what 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.000 that was all done? Punkin's Yes, punkin Chunkin, Yes, Josh. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.960 We are going to mention once again. The Discovery Channel 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.680 are awesome. Parent company is releasing two television shows on 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.280 Thanksgiving night. Don't confuse people, Chuck. They're gonna be on 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:51.880 the Science Channel well on Thursday, November twenty six, which 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.400 is Thanksgiving. That's a dead dead turkeys that day, The 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.720 Road to Punkin Chunkin and Punkin Chunkin Right. The Road 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.480 to Punkin Chunking comes on eight pm Eastern Time on 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.600 the Science Channel, followed by the Real punkin Chunking at 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:08.800 nine pm Eastern. I would follow it up with a 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.920 show called The Road from Punkin Film Right Going back 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.360 home after punkin chunking in Delaware. No less, So that's 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:20.040 that right? Sure? Alrighty so Chuck, Yes, Josh, Um, this 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:24.280 I have like a little this seems vaguely familiar. We're 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.679 talking about mutual assured destruction. Okay, well, how does that 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.880 seem familiar? Because I did it with Candice many many 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.920 moons ago on Stuffy miss in history class, back when 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.840 it was called factor fiction. Dude, that was another lifetime, 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.360 wasn't it. It really was. I have so many more 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.280 gray hairs now, and like my posture is much more 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:48.640 stooped the Seattle slump I do. Actually, nice one, Chuck. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.480 We've talked about this, I think here there we've mentioned it. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.320 Remember we did a podcast on how easy is it 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.120 is steal a nuclear bomb? We concluded that if the 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.720 Jamaicans are buying it and you steal it en route 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.960 to Maka, you can probably get away with it. Um. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:10.320 This podcast is specifically on a Cold War strategic doctrine 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:15.880 called mutual issued destruction, which was abbreviated as MAD appropriately enough. Yeah, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.680 it's funny. It's like it's scary as I'll get out, 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:22.080 but it's also comforting in the same breath, it's weird. 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:24.160 Well yeah, because I mean, if you think about it, 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.480 you and I grew up we were Cold War babies, 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.120 and we grew up with the express knowledge that at 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.160 any moment nuclear wark breakout and if that happened, everyone 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.680 on the planet was debt. And like, that's how we 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.200 were raised, like kids that were born like what in 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.440 like mid eighties today, which is just nuts to me 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.880 that there's people walking around that are sentient that we're 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.560 born in the mid eighties. But kids that were born 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:49.680 in the mid eighties and after did not grow up 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.120 with that specter looming over him, and I imagine are 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.760 completely different people personality wise than like you and I. Well, 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.920 that's like everyone else on our staff almost agreed. Do 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:00.840 you ever think about that? I did not. There are 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:03.680 a few old folks like us, although I'm much older 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.640 than you. Obviously. You definitely point out checks wearing right 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:12.360 now a Jeane jacket with a sharpie marker used to 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.359 to do the Journey logo on the back. It's pretty 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:19.320 pretty cool. Check you burnout. Um, So Chuck, as I 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.200 was saying, we grew up as as Cold War kids, um, 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.680 and every once in a while you have to stop 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.600 and think, why didn't the US and the USS are 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:32.040 blow one another up? Are you asking me that? Yeah, well, 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.280 let's talk about the Cold world, because the answer is 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.680 the end of the podcast, all right, So let's save that, 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:40.600 all right, The Cold War, Josh, I had a couple 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:42.760 of really scary moments. If you want to talk about those, 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:46.120 I do. The Cuban missile crisis was a pretty tense 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:48.839 a couple of weeks. Probably the first one in nine two, 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:53.040 President Kennedy threatened to strike once he found out that 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:55.960 Russia had moved or I guess the Soviet Union had 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.720 moved missiles to Cuba, and we're pointing them at his face. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.640 And Cuba seems like a world away, but it's really 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.520 just ninety miles off the southern coast of Florida, a 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.800 short boat ride, right, And so if you have nuclear, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:12.520 long range nuclear warheads pointed at the US, they can 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:15.640 hit their mark, probably as far as Kansas City, let's say, 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.880 and they could definitely hit temperature. That was a scary 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.720 couple of weeks. Sure it was because there was a standoff. Basically, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.479 we were saying, hey, we're gonna nuke you if you 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.760 don't remove these missiles and the Soviet Union said, oh yeah, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.279 well we'll nuke you back. And actually you can, actually 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.000 you can. You can point to this is perhaps the 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:41.719 beginning of the mad doctrine. And the other scary one 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:47.920 was in weird Chuck, This actually happened like several times. 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.039 This is probably the worst. That's some bad communication going on. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:55.679 What happened was, Uh, nora Ad got some information that 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.080 the Soviet Union had launched two thousand, two hundred and 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.839 twenty nuclear missiles our way. So chuck, Yeah, UM in 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.440 nora Ad, which is like our the command center for 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:13.320 our missile system defense deep in Shyenne Mountain in Colorado. UM, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.440 on some computer screen, some guys computer screen that that 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.200 tracks UM Soviet missile movement. All of a sudden, it 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.760 was just peppered with missiles that were coming this way. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:31.560 And and UM National Security Director of Brasniski. Nice jobs that, right, 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.080 I think it's right. I can't remember a lot of continants. 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.280 And it's not that I can't remember, it's that I've 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:43.599 never heard it. Prasinski, We're going with Prasinski. Um, he 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.040 was alerted. It's pretty early in the morning, right, yeah, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.880 two am. He was alerted and woken up and they're like, hey, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:52.520 there's a Soviet missile strike and all out missile strike, 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.679 twenty missiles coming our way, sir, and he is picking 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.920 up the phone to call President Carter, who I don't 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.040 know what Carter would have done. Carter wasn't exactly um, 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:06.800 the most militant president we've ever had. Great guy, great statesmen, 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.120 great diplomat. He might have pooped his pants and gone 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.400 back to bed, you know, maybe so um, but the 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.839 terrible um he he never got that phone call because 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:22.960 Brazinski was informed that, oh wait, it's a computer glitch. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.719 They whacked the side of the monitor and it all corrected. 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.440 That said. What shocked me was it was a seven 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:33.720 minute window that we had to decide what to do. Well, 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.719 it's a long way from the Soviet Union to the US, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.520 even by way of Alaska. Seven minutes. S Yeah, you 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:42.120 have to make up your mind in seven minutes whether 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.280 or not you're going to destroy the world. Basically, I'm saying, 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.839 you would think that it would be less than seven minutes. Okay, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.160 so so, and I'm telling you like that was probably 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.280 the worst case. But that happened many times during the 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:55.680 course of the Cold War. And from what I understand, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.680 the Soviets had similar incidents too, right, yeah, so we 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.040 have these incidents, we have the human missile crisis. Why 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:07.240 didn't either side pull the trigger? Because of the doctrine, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:12.440 the mad doctrine basically, which indicates that everyone will die. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.520 So the uh, you know, we blow everybody up on 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:20.240 both sides, So let's not do that, right, And the 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.760 U s SR In the United States could actually very 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:27.680 quickly from seven and nineteen forty one, both nations were 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.560 building up their nuclear arsenals, which is called nuclear proliferation. Right, 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.320 I think I got that out, um in the nuclear 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.720 proliferation Do you take that one for the rest of 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.440 the podcast. Okay, okay, okay, um? And uh they so 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:44.000 each side had this arsenal and we're keeping up in 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.360 step with one another. You know what. That's called nuclear parity, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:52.160 which is ideally what you want. Strangely, yes, in this case, 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.480 you definitely do. So both sides had more than enough 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:59.640 nuclear missiles to wipe out not just the other side, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.840 but the tire planet. Several times over. That's a really 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:08.080 important point. Several times over. Why would you need a 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:12.000 nuclear arsenal that could wipe out the world, the planet 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.880 several times over. Now, maybe if they destroyed some of 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.720 our weaponry with their strikes, that's part of it. But 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.600 another part of it is because if one side adds 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.640 a missile, you gotta add a missile. Well if you 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:28.480 if you're seeking nuclear parity, which is really important, um, 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.600 then you there can't be. It can't be out of whack. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:33.840 How did they did they release all this information to 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.440 each other? Was it? No? It was intelligence guesses that 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.360 kind of stuff, Like all of a sudden, there's like 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.560 a metal hole in the ground in Wyoming that wasn't 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.520 there before. The Soviets probably assumed, well, they have a 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.840 new nuclear warhead there. They didn't I m each other 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:51.720 and say built new messile. L o O click you're 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.079 going to say that. I knew you were going to 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.960 say that. So both sides are building up their arsenal. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.720 And early on, Chuck Um, I was reading another article 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.880 on game theory which will see plays into this, written 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.920 by our steem colleague and might be ff Tom sheeve Um, 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.640 and he talks about how early on, apparently Eisenhower, who 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.959 is uh what, the second president to have the bomb, 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.160 but really the first president to manage like an amassed 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:22.600 nuclear arsenal. He yeah, he stopped worrying. Um. He looked 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:24.760 at them as like any other type of weapon, because 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.120 he was a military man. Um. But luckily there was 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.520 a game theorist named Thomas Shelling, who had the ear 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.640 of Eisenhower, managed to convince him that no, no, no, 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:39.719 these things are way way more powerful and destructive than 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.520 anything else in our arsenal. They exist in this in 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:46.280 this vacuum that has to be kept separate, and therefore 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.400 they should be viewed only as deterrence. And he managed 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.560 to change Eisenhower's view, and from that point on it 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.720 was the presence of a nuclear arsenal was a weapon 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.720 in and of itself. It was the preventative and not 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.440 only to nuclear war. But the point that did you 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.600 write this one, uh, The point that you made, which 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.520 I found interesting was that it also was a deterrent 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:13.040 to conventional war. Excellent point, because conventional war they're really after. 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.120 After the arms race, there was no such thing as 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.480 conventional war. No, and um, not between the U S 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:20.559 and the U S s R. Right, or a guaranteed 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.640 conventional war. It might start out that way, but it 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:24.719 would escalate and all of a sudden the button is 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.320 pushed at some point, right, because our nuclear arsenal did 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.120 exist and say, a vacuum outside of the rest of 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.679 our arsenal. But once you exhausted the rest of the arsenal, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.439 then the inevitable conclusion was that that nuclear arsenal being deployed. Right, 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.160 or even if you didn't exhaust it, even if you 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.040 just said you just got man, let's just end this 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:45.640 game exactly. Um. So, as a result, the US and 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:47.760 the USS are just fought a Cold war. They never 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.800 directly engaged with another, but they fought one another through 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.960 proxy wars in places like Nicaragua in Afghanistan. Right, um 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:56.920 got a lot of good movies out of the Cold War, 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:01.320 definitely Rambo three and a good some good James Bond 0:11:01.320 --> 0:11:03.600 movies in that time. I liked it when the Rooskies 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:05.760 were the villain. It was you like the James Bond 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.400 movies of the Cold Well, okay, yeah, maybe the early ones. 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.720 I'm thinking like Timothy Dalton there, yeah, I mean, trust me, 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.280 Roger Moore is kind of a laughable Bond. Now that 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.679 I'm older and looked back, You're crazy. Roger Moore is 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.080 the best team because we grew up with him. But 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.160 looking back, I mean, come on, Roger Moore was kind 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.840 of a dufe maybe, but that was I think that 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.080 was his director that he was working with. I kind 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:28.560 of like Pierce bros And and and he was good. He 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.280 was okay, I'm pretty hip on the Daniel Craig. He's 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.240 all right, Well that's the only direction they could take. 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:38.200 That really left blonde. No, just uh more realistic butt 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.320 kicking with fists and that kind of thing. You don't 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:44.360 think Moonraker was realistic, you know, he was constantly like 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:50.439 winking at the camp. Yeah, it's like Jonathan Strickland is 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.440 James Bond. I guess good one. Alright, so sorry about 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:58.520 the sidetrack. Yeah, what happened was we created a detent. 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.679 It wasn't like, Okay, we all have the same amount 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.920 of weapons, so we're BFFs now and it's all good. 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:05.480 It was a day tome, meaning it was sort of 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:11.439 a what's the best description, an uneasy truce. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, basically, 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.880 the US and the USSR had our weapons and we're 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.640 keeping an eye on one another, and anytime one added 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.400 a new missile or some new capability, the other scrambled 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.559 to catch up and vice versa, and we just basically 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.440 went to sleep with one eye open for the next 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.120 several decades. Right. Uh So, Josh, what two things have 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.600 to take place in order to achieve this uh weird stability. Well, 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.040 the weird stability the very fact that it existed. It's 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.920 not it wasn't an organic Um, it wasn't organically created 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:46.400 by the presence of nuclear weapons. Right. Um. Henry Kissinger, 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.839 who was Secretary of State throughout much of the Cold War, Um, 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:53.839 he actually was a huge fan of game theory. He 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.040 took a lot of game theory classes when he was 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.280 an underclassman at Harvard, and he kept in touch with 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.680 game theory and hung out with game theorists, and he 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:06.160 actually was one of the people who was responsible for 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.520 applying game theory to nuclear strategy. Yeah, and other people 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.240 kind of caught on and saw that there was a 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.199 lot of merit and validity to to viewing um, nuclear 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:20.559 strategy through game theory. Right. Um, So the two things 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.880 really are having that I'll answer my own question that 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.319 what's key is a to have the weapons to begin with. 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.199 And then, as Robert McNamara points out, the Defense Secretary 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.400 in nineteen sixties was that you have to believe that 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.400 the other guys actually has the cojones to pull the trigger, right, 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.600 And apparently both the US and the USS are like 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.000 to leak false information about how crazy their leaders were. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.600 Do you remember how we were brought up viewing like 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.000 the Russians like they were all nuts, right, and they 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.240 would just push the button at any second. Yeah, they 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.640 wanted American blood. Apparently that was planted by the Russians, 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.400 because you have to believe that the other guy is 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.960 willing to strike and and not just create a first strike, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.920 but definitely a counter strike as well. Right, sure, So 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:10.160 if you are assured that if you launch a first 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.560 strike that the next the other sides going to launch 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.800 a retaliatory strike, what you've just done by launching that 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:21.680 first strike is committed suicide. Pretty much. The basis of 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:27.960 mutual assured destruction is that nobody wants to die, right Okay? Yeah, yeah, okay? 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.520 And uh also at the time, I mean, at first, 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:35.640 the way the nuclear warheads um developed over the years 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:38.080 is pretty cool because, like you pointed out, at first, 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.800 it was just a big, huge, dopey bomb that would 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.640 just blow up everything. Yeah, have you seen pictures of 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.760 Fat Boy and Little Man. They really do they do? 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.320 The money would drop out of the back of a plane. Yeah, 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:52.920 did you know they weren't the same type of bomb. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:56.360 Fat Man, which was dropped on Nagasaki was plutonium and 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.360 a Little Boy, which was dropped on Hiroshima was uranium. Interesting, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.080 I didn't know that, and they were. They were working 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.080 on both of these. So basically we split the atom 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:05.520 in the like for the late thirties and all of 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.800 a sudden, we're just working on any kind of atomic 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.000 bomb we want nuts. So over the years though that 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.240 it became very precise and much more strategic, so you could, um, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.720 let's say, send your nuclear warheads to specific military targets 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.720 at first, obviously to wipe out, you know, some of 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.520 that capability. Hold on, you're talking about escalation. Let's talk 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.280 about the nuclear proliferation. It wasn't just a ladder of escalation. Well, 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.080 hold on, let's talk about where the nukes were, right, 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.320 and so at the height of the Cold War, it 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.080 wasn't just missile silos and wyoming and you know this Ukraine, 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.760 it was um, there was the European theater, Eastern and 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:46.200 Western we had nuclear warheads all over the place there 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:48.920 um at any given time, both the Soviets and the 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.080 US had aircraft in the air at any point in 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.800 time with nuclear with nukes, right, we had nuclear submarines 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.800 all over the globe, so lancey and air both sides 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.480 had it covered. Right. So okay, we're the world is 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:08.320 completely covered with thermonuclear devices, very high tech delivery systems 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.080 specific and both sides have enough to wipe the other 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.880 one off the planet several times. We're at a day time, right, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:17.840 So what happens if somebody does launch a first strike 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:23.080 because it's no longer a holocaust where we're just shooting 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.720 missiles anymore, we have the capability to launch precise surgical strike. Well, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.080 there will be a counter strike, there is. But this 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.400 is where the ladder of escalation you were talking about 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.680 comes in. Well, yeah, you like in it to a 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.320 chess game, there's a strike than a counter strike, and 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:42.320 then you know increasing levels of of strikes as they 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.280 climb up the ladder. Right now, So basically, yeah, it's 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.560 like trading punches, right, right, So you start out, you 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.320 start out soft, and I hit you. I don't you 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.600 bring it all from the beginning. Then I'm really glad 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.600 you weren't at the helm of the United States or 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.880 the uss are during the Cold War. But let's say 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.480 let's say we were evenly matched, right, and I punch you, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.920 you punched me a little harder, I punch you a 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:08.800 little harder, and then uh, it keeps going on until 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.240 finally one of us like, okay, stop. But what we've 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.000 done is we've escalated the damage we're doing to one another. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.480 But there's something very important that that's easily overlooked in 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.080 that trade of punches. There's a moment that comes after 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.280 each punch where someone might quit, where somebody has the 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.919 options to quit right or trade another punch. And if 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.360 you trade another punch, you're gonna escalate. Right. So if 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.720 in the case of nuclear arms that are real precise 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.000 at this point, they take out a few of our 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.400 military bases, we take a few of their's are out, 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.600 and all of a sudden, one of the leaders steps 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:46.600 back and says, wait a minute, we're gonna annihilate everybody. 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:50.080 We have to stop. You win, right exactly. Um, And 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.600 what's crazy is it's like the fact that there would 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.600 even be a retaliatory strike is all based on saving face, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.000 which is kind of disgusting in and of itself. But um, yeah, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:03.879 both sides had this kind of agreement. I can't remember 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.720 it was called where it's It's like in the ladder 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:10.639 of escalation. First to start with like say nuclear silo, 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.960 and then you the next the next wrong on the 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.119 ladder is you know, actual troops, right, and then the 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.600 next wrong after that is like maybe a rural area. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:21.520 Then after that it is like a city, and it 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.800 keeps you going and I aming each other between give up. 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.280 Yet both sides knew what was coming next. It was 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.000 part of the ladder of escalation. Yeah, luckily we never 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.880 engaged in that. Luckily there was no instant messaging back 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.320 then too. I know it would have been fun or 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:37.520 it could have saved us that well, I guess we 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.639 we were saved. But chuck, um, I know you recognize 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.320 the ladder of escalation because your favorite movie or one 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:47.879 of them had this factor heavily into four games. What 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:50.240 did we talk about this one in the Steel Nuclear Bomber? 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.800 Was it another one we've talked about at least one 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:54.800 other time. Yeah, it's a great movie. What are we 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.600 up to? Like ten thousand and ninety podcast? So far? 0:18:57.720 --> 0:18:59.800 I think so. We've mentioned four games in about half 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.880 of the I would say, uh, in three Matthew young 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.240 Matthew Broderick, although he still looks exactly the same thing, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.160 it really does, doesn't He doesn't age. Sarah Jessica Parker 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.439 has an aged either. Yeah, but if you look at 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.119 square pegs her versus Sex in the City her, there 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.440 was quite a difference. Okay, although I still don't find 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.280 her very attractive. To be honest, I'm gonna hear from 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.320 the ladies on that one. And Sara Jessica Parker, Dude, 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.360 if she listen to the show, they'd be great. You're 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.800 really hot, Sarah Jessica Parker. Yeah. Josh and war Games, Uh, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.720 Matthew Broderick um hacks into the Norad system and to 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:38.800 play some games, and what he chooses to play is 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.680 thermonuclear war and the computer constantly at the end of 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.679 the movie, you know, it's like the only way to 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.800 win is not to play, which is actually correct, and 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.160 that is right on the money. It's um. It's also 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:55.320 akin to uh, an actual game theory exercise called the 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:58.119 prisoners Dilemma. Yeah, that's cool, tell us about that, Josh, Well, 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.879 the prisoners Lemma. Let's say you have two accomplices in 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.280 a crime that are separated. Let's say to you and me, 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.879 all right, so Chuck, you're being interrogated in room A. 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:12.000 Josh did it. That's well, we're both in trouble, right, Um, Well, 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.359 I'm in trouble and you're not right. But let's say 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.240 we're we're actually buddies and we like each other outside 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.800 of the podcast be and we we've committed a jewel heist. 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:24.560 So we've been caught, but nobody said anything yet. You're 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.480 an interrogation room A. I'm an interrogation room beat. The 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.679 problem is I have no idea what you're doing. You 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.120 have no idea what I'm doing. If you implicate me, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:37.520 I go to jail. You go free. If I implicate you, 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.360 you go to jail. I go free. We both implicate 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.960 each other, we both go to jail. What's the best 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.600 option here to not say a word? Not say a word, 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:48.399 and then either one of us is implicated and we 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.000 both go free. That's a classic TV and movie thing too. 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.359 In the you always split them up, and you and 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.280 you always go into the one room and say your 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.720 partners in there singing like a bird. Yeah, Willie. Yeah, 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.399 see Rocky's gonna fixture saying, and then all of a 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.840 sudden they get that prisoner too or that criminal to 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.840 uh rat out the other guy because they think that 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:13.240 they're being read at, which is stupid. Man. They should 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.159 just keep your here's the lesson to our younger viewers. 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.000 Keep your mouth shut. Yeah, that's good. That's always good. 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.280 Never wrat people out. All right, So if you want 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.080 to read more about mutual assured destruction, frankly, I think 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.720 that I wrote this a little flowery, but it was 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:34.600 one of my my UM favorite ones. It was just interesting. 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.680 You can type in mutual assured destruction on the cite 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:41.320 will also bring up UM Tom Sheaves game theory article, 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.359 which is definitely worth reading as well. Uh and you 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.919 will type that into the handy search bar, which means 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:53.280 that it's time for listener mail. Indeed, Josh, I'm gonna 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:58.240 call this our first genuine unicorn email, all right, sort 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.439 of what about the ones where people send a pictures 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.480 of unicorns? It's not genuine? Okay, that's falsome. Hi, Chuck 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.600 and Josh, you mentioned that you wanted some unicorn stories, 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:09.280 and I couldn't resist sending me this one. It might 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.560 be a good lead into a podcast on traditional medicines. 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.840