1
00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know from House Stuff Works

2
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

3
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,720
Speaker 1: Clark with me as always as the lovely and talented

4
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 1: Charles W. Chuckers Bryant. Hi, Hey, Chuck. Hi. See you

5
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,960
Speaker 1: switched hats uh from When to Win from the Chicago

6
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: Bears hat to the Atlanta Braves hate. That was yesterday

7
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,480
Speaker 1: today today. You're a man of many hats, John, many

8
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: fan allegiances. I'm not a Bears fan. You know what

9
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,000
Speaker 1: that was all done? Punkin's Yes, punkin Chunkin, Yes, Josh.

10
00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: We are going to mention once again. The Discovery Channel

11
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:45,680
Speaker 1: are awesome. Parent company is releasing two television shows on

12
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,280
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving night. Don't confuse people, Chuck. They're gonna be on

13
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,880
Speaker 1: the Science Channel well on Thursday, November twenty six, which

14
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: is Thanksgiving. That's a dead dead turkeys that day, The

15
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: Road to Punkin Chunkin and Punkin Chunkin Right. The Road

16
00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,480
Speaker 1: to Punkin Chunking comes on eight pm Eastern Time on

17
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 1: the Science Channel, followed by the Real punkin Chunking at

18
00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,800
Speaker 1: nine pm Eastern. I would follow it up with a

19
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,920
Speaker 1: show called The Road from Punkin Film Right Going back

20
00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,360
Speaker 1: home after punkin chunking in Delaware. No less, So that's

21
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:20,040
Speaker 1: that right? Sure? Alrighty so Chuck, Yes, Josh, Um, this

22
00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: I have like a little this seems vaguely familiar. We're

23
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 1: talking about mutual assured destruction. Okay, well, how does that

24
00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 1: seem familiar? Because I did it with Candice many many

25
00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 1: moons ago on Stuffy miss in history class, back when

26
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 1: it was called factor fiction. Dude, that was another lifetime,

27
00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,360
Speaker 1: wasn't it. It really was. I have so many more

28
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 1: gray hairs now, and like my posture is much more

29
00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 1: stooped the Seattle slump I do. Actually, nice one, Chuck.

30
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 1: We've talked about this, I think here there we've mentioned it.

31
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: Remember we did a podcast on how easy is it

32
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,120
Speaker 1: is steal a nuclear bomb? We concluded that if the

33
00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: Jamaicans are buying it and you steal it en route

34
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,960
Speaker 1: to Maka, you can probably get away with it. Um.

35
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 1: This podcast is specifically on a Cold War strategic doctrine

36
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,880
Speaker 1: called mutual issued destruction, which was abbreviated as MAD appropriately enough. Yeah,

37
00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 1: it's funny. It's like it's scary as I'll get out,

38
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 1: but it's also comforting in the same breath, it's weird.

39
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,160
Speaker 1: Well yeah, because I mean, if you think about it,

40
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: you and I grew up we were Cold War babies,

41
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 1: and we grew up with the express knowledge that at

42
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 1: any moment nuclear wark breakout and if that happened, everyone

43
00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,680
Speaker 1: on the planet was debt. And like, that's how we

44
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,200
Speaker 1: were raised, like kids that were born like what in

45
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 1: like mid eighties today, which is just nuts to me

46
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,880
Speaker 1: that there's people walking around that are sentient that we're

47
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: born in the mid eighties. But kids that were born

48
00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,680
Speaker 1: in the mid eighties and after did not grow up

49
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,120
Speaker 1: with that specter looming over him, and I imagine are

50
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,760
Speaker 1: completely different people personality wise than like you and I. Well,

51
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,920
Speaker 1: that's like everyone else on our staff almost agreed. Do

52
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 1: you ever think about that? I did not. There are

53
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 1: a few old folks like us, although I'm much older

54
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,640
Speaker 1: than you. Obviously. You definitely point out checks wearing right

55
00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,360
Speaker 1: now a Jeane jacket with a sharpie marker used to

56
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,359
Speaker 1: to do the Journey logo on the back. It's pretty

57
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Check you burnout. Um, So Chuck, as I

58
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,200
Speaker 1: was saying, we grew up as as Cold War kids, um,

59
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: and every once in a while you have to stop

60
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,600
Speaker 1: and think, why didn't the US and the USS are

61
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,040
Speaker 1: blow one another up? Are you asking me that? Yeah, well,

62
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,280
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Cold world, because the answer is

63
00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,680
Speaker 1: the end of the podcast, all right, So let's save that,

64
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 1: all right, The Cold War, Josh, I had a couple

65
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,760
Speaker 1: of really scary moments. If you want to talk about those,

66
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 1: I do. The Cuban missile crisis was a pretty tense

67
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,839
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Probably the first one in nine two,

68
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 1: President Kennedy threatened to strike once he found out that

69
00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 1: Russia had moved or I guess the Soviet Union had

70
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,720
Speaker 1: moved missiles to Cuba, and we're pointing them at his face.

71
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 1: And Cuba seems like a world away, but it's really

72
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 1: just ninety miles off the southern coast of Florida, a

73
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,800
Speaker 1: short boat ride, right, And so if you have nuclear,

74
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,520
Speaker 1: long range nuclear warheads pointed at the US, they can

75
00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,640
Speaker 1: hit their mark, probably as far as Kansas City, let's say,

76
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: and they could definitely hit temperature. That was a scary

77
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,720
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. Sure it was because there was a standoff. Basically,

78
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,479
Speaker 1: we were saying, hey, we're gonna nuke you if you

79
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,760
Speaker 1: don't remove these missiles and the Soviet Union said, oh yeah,

80
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 1: well we'll nuke you back. And actually you can, actually

81
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,000
Speaker 1: you can. You can point to this is perhaps the

82
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,719
Speaker 1: beginning of the mad doctrine. And the other scary one

83
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,920
Speaker 1: was in weird Chuck, This actually happened like several times.

84
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,039
Speaker 1: This is probably the worst. That's some bad communication going on.

85
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,679
Speaker 1: What happened was, Uh, nora Ad got some information that

86
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,080
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union had launched two thousand, two hundred and

87
00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,839
Speaker 1: twenty nuclear missiles our way. So chuck, Yeah, UM in

88
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 1: nora Ad, which is like our the command center for

89
00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: our missile system defense deep in Shyenne Mountain in Colorado. UM,

90
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 1: on some computer screen, some guys computer screen that that

91
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,200
Speaker 1: tracks UM Soviet missile movement. All of a sudden, it

92
00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 1: was just peppered with missiles that were coming this way.

93
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:31,560
Speaker 1: And and UM National Security Director of Brasniski. Nice jobs that, right,

94
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 1: I think it's right. I can't remember a lot of continants.

95
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 1: And it's not that I can't remember, it's that I've

96
00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 1: never heard it. Prasinski, We're going with Prasinski. Um, he

97
00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,040
Speaker 1: was alerted. It's pretty early in the morning, right, yeah,

98
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,880
Speaker 1: two am. He was alerted and woken up and they're like, hey,

99
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,520
Speaker 1: there's a Soviet missile strike and all out missile strike,

100
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,679
Speaker 1: twenty missiles coming our way, sir, and he is picking

101
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 1: up the phone to call President Carter, who I don't

102
00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,040
Speaker 1: know what Carter would have done. Carter wasn't exactly um,

103
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,800
Speaker 1: the most militant president we've ever had. Great guy, great statesmen,

104
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 1: great diplomat. He might have pooped his pants and gone

105
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 1: back to bed, you know, maybe so um, but the

106
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,839
Speaker 1: terrible um he he never got that phone call because

107
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 1: Brazinski was informed that, oh wait, it's a computer glitch.

108
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,719
Speaker 1: They whacked the side of the monitor and it all corrected.

109
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: That said. What shocked me was it was a seven

110
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,720
Speaker 1: minute window that we had to decide what to do. Well,

111
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,719
Speaker 1: it's a long way from the Soviet Union to the US,

112
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,520
Speaker 1: even by way of Alaska. Seven minutes. S Yeah, you

113
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,120
Speaker 1: have to make up your mind in seven minutes whether

114
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,280
Speaker 1: or not you're going to destroy the world. Basically, I'm saying,

115
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,839
Speaker 1: you would think that it would be less than seven minutes. Okay,

116
00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,160
Speaker 1: so so, and I'm telling you like that was probably

117
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,280
Speaker 1: the worst case. But that happened many times during the

118
00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: course of the Cold War. And from what I understand,

119
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,680
Speaker 1: the Soviets had similar incidents too, right, yeah, so we

120
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 1: have these incidents, we have the human missile crisis. Why

121
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,240
Speaker 1: didn't either side pull the trigger? Because of the doctrine,

122
00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:12,440
Speaker 1: the mad doctrine basically, which indicates that everyone will die.

123
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,520
Speaker 1: So the uh, you know, we blow everybody up on

124
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 1: both sides, So let's not do that, right, And the

125
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: U s SR In the United States could actually very

126
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 1: quickly from seven and nineteen forty one, both nations were

127
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,560
Speaker 1: building up their nuclear arsenals, which is called nuclear proliferation. Right,

128
00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,320
Speaker 1: I think I got that out, um in the nuclear

129
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: proliferation Do you take that one for the rest of

130
00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 1: the podcast. Okay, okay, okay, um? And uh they so

131
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,000
Speaker 1: each side had this arsenal and we're keeping up in

132
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 1: step with one another. You know what. That's called nuclear parity,

133
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 1: which is ideally what you want. Strangely, yes, in this case,

134
00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,480
Speaker 1: you definitely do. So both sides had more than enough

135
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 1: nuclear missiles to wipe out not just the other side,

136
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 1: but the tire planet. Several times over. That's a really

137
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: important point. Several times over. Why would you need a

138
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 1: nuclear arsenal that could wipe out the world, the planet

139
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 1: several times over. Now, maybe if they destroyed some of

140
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 1: our weaponry with their strikes, that's part of it. But

141
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 1: another part of it is because if one side adds

142
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 1: a missile, you gotta add a missile. Well if you

143
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 1: if you're seeking nuclear parity, which is really important, um,

144
00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,600
Speaker 1: then you there can't be. It can't be out of whack.

145
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 1: How did they did they release all this information to

146
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,440
Speaker 1: each other? Was it? No? It was intelligence guesses that

147
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,360
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, Like all of a sudden, there's like

148
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,560
Speaker 1: a metal hole in the ground in Wyoming that wasn't

149
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 1: there before. The Soviets probably assumed, well, they have a

150
00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 1: new nuclear warhead there. They didn't I m each other

151
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,720
Speaker 1: and say built new messile. L o O click you're

152
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,079
Speaker 1: going to say that. I knew you were going to

153
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,960
Speaker 1: say that. So both sides are building up their arsenal.

154
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,720
Speaker 1: And early on, Chuck Um, I was reading another article

155
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,880
Speaker 1: on game theory which will see plays into this, written

156
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 1: by our steem colleague and might be ff Tom sheeve Um,

157
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,640
Speaker 1: and he talks about how early on, apparently Eisenhower, who

158
00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,959
Speaker 1: is uh what, the second president to have the bomb,

159
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,160
Speaker 1: but really the first president to manage like an amassed

160
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 1: nuclear arsenal. He yeah, he stopped worrying. Um. He looked

161
00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: at them as like any other type of weapon, because

162
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,120
Speaker 1: he was a military man. Um. But luckily there was

163
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,520
Speaker 1: a game theorist named Thomas Shelling, who had the ear

164
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,640
Speaker 1: of Eisenhower, managed to convince him that no, no, no,

165
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,719
Speaker 1: these things are way way more powerful and destructive than

166
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,520
Speaker 1: anything else in our arsenal. They exist in this in

167
00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 1: this vacuum that has to be kept separate, and therefore

168
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,400
Speaker 1: they should be viewed only as deterrence. And he managed

169
00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,560
Speaker 1: to change Eisenhower's view, and from that point on it

170
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 1: was the presence of a nuclear arsenal was a weapon

171
00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,720
Speaker 1: in and of itself. It was the preventative and not

172
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,440
Speaker 1: only to nuclear war. But the point that did you

173
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,600
Speaker 1: write this one, uh, The point that you made, which

174
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 1: I found interesting was that it also was a deterrent

175
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 1: to conventional war. Excellent point, because conventional war they're really after.

176
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 1: After the arms race, there was no such thing as

177
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 1: conventional war. No, and um, not between the U S

178
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,559
Speaker 1: and the U S s R. Right, or a guaranteed

179
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,640
Speaker 1: conventional war. It might start out that way, but it

180
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,719
Speaker 1: would escalate and all of a sudden the button is

181
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,320
Speaker 1: pushed at some point, right, because our nuclear arsenal did

182
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120
Speaker 1: exist and say, a vacuum outside of the rest of

183
00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,679
Speaker 1: our arsenal. But once you exhausted the rest of the arsenal,

184
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,439
Speaker 1: then the inevitable conclusion was that that nuclear arsenal being deployed. Right,

185
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,160
Speaker 1: or even if you didn't exhaust it, even if you

186
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 1: just said you just got man, let's just end this

187
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 1: game exactly. Um. So, as a result, the US and

188
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,760
Speaker 1: the USS are just fought a Cold war. They never

189
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: directly engaged with another, but they fought one another through

190
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,960
Speaker 1: proxy wars in places like Nicaragua in Afghanistan. Right, um

191
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:56,920
Speaker 1: got a lot of good movies out of the Cold War,

192
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 1: definitely Rambo three and a good some good James Bond

193
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,600
Speaker 1: movies in that time. I liked it when the Rooskies

194
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,760
Speaker 1: were the villain. It was you like the James Bond

195
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,400
Speaker 1: movies of the Cold Well, okay, yeah, maybe the early ones.

196
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 1: I'm thinking like Timothy Dalton there, yeah, I mean, trust me,

197
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,280
Speaker 1: Roger Moore is kind of a laughable Bond. Now that

198
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,679
Speaker 1: I'm older and looked back, You're crazy. Roger Moore is

199
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,080
Speaker 1: the best team because we grew up with him. But

200
00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: looking back, I mean, come on, Roger Moore was kind

201
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,840
Speaker 1: of a dufe maybe, but that was I think that

202
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 1: was his director that he was working with. I kind

203
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 1: of like Pierce bros And and and he was good. He

204
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 1: was okay, I'm pretty hip on the Daniel Craig. He's

205
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,240
Speaker 1: all right, Well that's the only direction they could take.

206
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 1: That really left blonde. No, just uh more realistic butt

207
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,320
Speaker 1: kicking with fists and that kind of thing. You don't

208
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 1: think Moonraker was realistic, you know, he was constantly like

209
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:50,439
Speaker 1: winking at the camp. Yeah, it's like Jonathan Strickland is

210
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,440
Speaker 1: James Bond. I guess good one. Alright, so sorry about

211
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,520
Speaker 1: the sidetrack. Yeah, what happened was we created a detent.

212
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,679
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, Okay, we all have the same amount

213
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 1: of weapons, so we're BFFs now and it's all good.

214
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,480
Speaker 1: It was a day tome, meaning it was sort of

215
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:11,439
Speaker 1: a what's the best description, an uneasy truce. Yeah. Yeah, so, um, basically,

216
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 1: the US and the USSR had our weapons and we're

217
00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,640
Speaker 1: keeping an eye on one another, and anytime one added

218
00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,400
Speaker 1: a new missile or some new capability, the other scrambled

219
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,559
Speaker 1: to catch up and vice versa, and we just basically

220
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,440
Speaker 1: went to sleep with one eye open for the next

221
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 1: several decades. Right. Uh So, Josh, what two things have

222
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,600
Speaker 1: to take place in order to achieve this uh weird stability. Well,

223
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 1: the weird stability the very fact that it existed. It's

224
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: not it wasn't an organic Um, it wasn't organically created

225
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: by the presence of nuclear weapons. Right. Um. Henry Kissinger,

226
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,839
Speaker 1: who was Secretary of State throughout much of the Cold War, Um,

227
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,839
Speaker 1: he actually was a huge fan of game theory. He

228
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: took a lot of game theory classes when he was

229
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,280
Speaker 1: an underclassman at Harvard, and he kept in touch with

230
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,680
Speaker 1: game theory and hung out with game theorists, and he

231
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: actually was one of the people who was responsible for

232
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,520
Speaker 1: applying game theory to nuclear strategy. Yeah, and other people

233
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 1: kind of caught on and saw that there was a

234
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:16,199
Speaker 1: lot of merit and validity to to viewing um, nuclear

235
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,559
Speaker 1: strategy through game theory. Right. Um, So the two things

236
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 1: really are having that I'll answer my own question that

237
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,319
Speaker 1: what's key is a to have the weapons to begin with.

238
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,199
Speaker 1: And then, as Robert McNamara points out, the Defense Secretary

239
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixties was that you have to believe that

240
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,400
Speaker 1: the other guys actually has the cojones to pull the trigger, right,

241
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 1: And apparently both the US and the USS are like

242
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,000
Speaker 1: to leak false information about how crazy their leaders were.

243
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: Do you remember how we were brought up viewing like

244
00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 1: the Russians like they were all nuts, right, and they

245
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: would just push the button at any second. Yeah, they

246
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,640
Speaker 1: wanted American blood. Apparently that was planted by the Russians,

247
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 1: because you have to believe that the other guy is

248
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,960
Speaker 1: willing to strike and and not just create a first strike,

249
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,920
Speaker 1: but definitely a counter strike as well. Right, sure, So

250
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 1: if you are assured that if you launch a first

251
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,560
Speaker 1: strike that the next the other sides going to launch

252
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 1: a retaliatory strike, what you've just done by launching that

253
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: first strike is committed suicide. Pretty much. The basis of

254
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: mutual assured destruction is that nobody wants to die, right Okay? Yeah, yeah, okay?

255
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 1: And uh also at the time, I mean, at first,

256
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 1: the way the nuclear warheads um developed over the years

257
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,080
Speaker 1: is pretty cool because, like you pointed out, at first,

258
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 1: it was just a big, huge, dopey bomb that would

259
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: just blow up everything. Yeah, have you seen pictures of

260
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: Fat Boy and Little Man. They really do they do?

261
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 1: The money would drop out of the back of a plane. Yeah,

262
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 1: did you know they weren't the same type of bomb.

263
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 1: Fat Man, which was dropped on Nagasaki was plutonium and

264
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,360
Speaker 1: a Little Boy, which was dropped on Hiroshima was uranium. Interesting,

265
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,080
Speaker 1: I didn't know that, and they were. They were working

266
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,080
Speaker 1: on both of these. So basically we split the atom

267
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 1: in the like for the late thirties and all of

268
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,800
Speaker 1: a sudden, we're just working on any kind of atomic

269
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 1: bomb we want nuts. So over the years though that

270
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 1: it became very precise and much more strategic, so you could, um,

271
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,720
Speaker 1: let's say, send your nuclear warheads to specific military targets

272
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 1: at first, obviously to wipe out, you know, some of

273
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,520
Speaker 1: that capability. Hold on, you're talking about escalation. Let's talk

274
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,280
Speaker 1: about the nuclear proliferation. It wasn't just a ladder of escalation. Well,

275
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: hold on, let's talk about where the nukes were, right,

276
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,320
Speaker 1: and so at the height of the Cold War, it

277
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 1: wasn't just missile silos and wyoming and you know this Ukraine,

278
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,760
Speaker 1: it was um, there was the European theater, Eastern and

279
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 1: Western we had nuclear warheads all over the place there

280
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 1: um at any given time, both the Soviets and the

281
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,080
Speaker 1: US had aircraft in the air at any point in

282
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 1: time with nuclear with nukes, right, we had nuclear submarines

283
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 1: all over the globe, so lancey and air both sides

284
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: had it covered. Right. So okay, we're the world is

285
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:08,320
Speaker 1: completely covered with thermonuclear devices, very high tech delivery systems

286
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 1: specific and both sides have enough to wipe the other

287
00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,880
Speaker 1: one off the planet several times. We're at a day time, right,

288
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 1: So what happens if somebody does launch a first strike

289
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,080
Speaker 1: because it's no longer a holocaust where we're just shooting

290
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: missiles anymore, we have the capability to launch precise surgical strike. Well,

291
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,080
Speaker 1: there will be a counter strike, there is. But this

292
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 1: is where the ladder of escalation you were talking about

293
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,680
Speaker 1: comes in. Well, yeah, you like in it to a

294
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,320
Speaker 1: chess game, there's a strike than a counter strike, and

295
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 1: then you know increasing levels of of strikes as they

296
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 1: climb up the ladder. Right now, So basically, yeah, it's

297
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,560
Speaker 1: like trading punches, right, right, So you start out, you

298
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,320
Speaker 1: start out soft, and I hit you. I don't you

299
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,600
Speaker 1: bring it all from the beginning. Then I'm really glad

300
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 1: you weren't at the helm of the United States or

301
00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,880
Speaker 1: the uss are during the Cold War. But let's say

302
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 1: let's say we were evenly matched, right, and I punch you,

303
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,920
Speaker 1: you punched me a little harder, I punch you a

304
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 1: little harder, and then uh, it keeps going on until

305
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: finally one of us like, okay, stop. But what we've

306
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 1: done is we've escalated the damage we're doing to one another.

307
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,480
Speaker 1: But there's something very important that that's easily overlooked in

308
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: that trade of punches. There's a moment that comes after

309
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 1: each punch where someone might quit, where somebody has the

310
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,919
Speaker 1: options to quit right or trade another punch. And if

311
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,360
Speaker 1: you trade another punch, you're gonna escalate. Right. So if

312
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,720
Speaker 1: in the case of nuclear arms that are real precise

313
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 1: at this point, they take out a few of our

314
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 1: military bases, we take a few of their's are out,

315
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, one of the leaders steps

316
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 1: back and says, wait a minute, we're gonna annihilate everybody.

317
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: We have to stop. You win, right exactly. Um, And

318
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,600
Speaker 1: what's crazy is it's like the fact that there would

319
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,600
Speaker 1: even be a retaliatory strike is all based on saving face,

320
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 1: which is kind of disgusting in and of itself. But um, yeah,

321
00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,879
Speaker 1: both sides had this kind of agreement. I can't remember

322
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: it was called where it's It's like in the ladder

323
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,639
Speaker 1: of escalation. First to start with like say nuclear silo,

324
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 1: and then you the next the next wrong on the

325
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 1: ladder is you know, actual troops, right, and then the

326
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 1: next wrong after that is like maybe a rural area.

327
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,520
Speaker 1: Then after that it is like a city, and it

328
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 1: keeps you going and I aming each other between give up.

329
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: Yet both sides knew what was coming next. It was

330
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: part of the ladder of escalation. Yeah, luckily we never

331
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 1: engaged in that. Luckily there was no instant messaging back

332
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 1: then too. I know it would have been fun or

333
00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 1: it could have saved us that well, I guess we

334
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 1: we were saved. But chuck, um, I know you recognize

335
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,320
Speaker 1: the ladder of escalation because your favorite movie or one

336
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 1: of them had this factor heavily into four games. What

337
00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: did we talk about this one in the Steel Nuclear Bomber?

338
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 1: Was it another one we've talked about at least one

339
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 1: other time. Yeah, it's a great movie. What are we

340
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 1: up to? Like ten thousand and ninety podcast? So far?

341
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: I think so. We've mentioned four games in about half

342
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,880
Speaker 1: of the I would say, uh, in three Matthew young

343
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: Matthew Broderick, although he still looks exactly the same thing,

344
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 1: it really does, doesn't He doesn't age. Sarah Jessica Parker

345
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 1: has an aged either. Yeah, but if you look at

346
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,119
Speaker 1: square pegs her versus Sex in the City her, there

347
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,440
Speaker 1: was quite a difference. Okay, although I still don't find

348
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: her very attractive. To be honest, I'm gonna hear from

349
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 1: the ladies on that one. And Sara Jessica Parker, Dude,

350
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 1: if she listen to the show, they'd be great. You're

351
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 1: really hot, Sarah Jessica Parker. Yeah. Josh and war Games, Uh,

352
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: Matthew Broderick um hacks into the Norad system and to

353
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: play some games, and what he chooses to play is

354
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 1: thermonuclear war and the computer constantly at the end of

355
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,679
Speaker 1: the movie, you know, it's like the only way to

356
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: win is not to play, which is actually correct, and

357
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 1: that is right on the money. It's um. It's also

358
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: akin to uh, an actual game theory exercise called the

359
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 1: prisoners Dilemma. Yeah, that's cool, tell us about that, Josh, Well,

360
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 1: the prisoners Lemma. Let's say you have two accomplices in

361
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: a crime that are separated. Let's say to you and me,

362
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 1: all right, so Chuck, you're being interrogated in room A.

363
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 1: Josh did it. That's well, we're both in trouble, right, Um, Well,

364
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: I'm in trouble and you're not right. But let's say

365
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 1: we're we're actually buddies and we like each other outside

366
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 1: of the podcast be and we we've committed a jewel heist.

367
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: So we've been caught, but nobody said anything yet. You're

368
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 1: an interrogation room A. I'm an interrogation room beat. The

369
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: problem is I have no idea what you're doing. You

370
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 1: have no idea what I'm doing. If you implicate me,

371
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 1: I go to jail. You go free. If I implicate you,

372
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 1: you go to jail. I go free. We both implicate

373
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 1: each other, we both go to jail. What's the best

374
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,600
Speaker 1: option here to not say a word? Not say a word,

375
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 1: and then either one of us is implicated and we

376
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 1: both go free. That's a classic TV and movie thing too.

377
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: In the you always split them up, and you and

378
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,280
Speaker 1: you always go into the one room and say your

379
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 1: partners in there singing like a bird. Yeah, Willie. Yeah,

380
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 1: see Rocky's gonna fixture saying, and then all of a

381
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: sudden they get that prisoner too or that criminal to

382
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: uh rat out the other guy because they think that

383
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 1: they're being read at, which is stupid. Man. They should

384
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 1: just keep your here's the lesson to our younger viewers.

385
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: Keep your mouth shut. Yeah, that's good. That's always good.

386
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 1: Never wrat people out. All right, So if you want

387
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 1: to read more about mutual assured destruction, frankly, I think

388
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: that I wrote this a little flowery, but it was

389
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 1: one of my my UM favorite ones. It was just interesting.

390
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: You can type in mutual assured destruction on the cite

391
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 1: will also bring up UM Tom Sheaves game theory article,

392
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: which is definitely worth reading as well. Uh and you

393
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: will type that into the handy search bar, which means

394
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: that it's time for listener mail. Indeed, Josh, I'm gonna

395
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 1: call this our first genuine unicorn email, all right, sort

396
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 1: of what about the ones where people send a pictures

397
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: of unicorns? It's not genuine? Okay, that's falsome. Hi, Chuck

398
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: and Josh, you mentioned that you wanted some unicorn stories,

399
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: and I couldn't resist sending me this one. It might

400
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: be a good lead into a podcast on traditional medicines.

401
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: This alam makes sense in a minute. I just got

402
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 1: back from a trip to Vietnam, and as a part

403
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: of my trip, I went into the hill country and

404
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: northern Vietnam called Sapa. This is where many minority tribes

405
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: are residing, and part of their way of life is

406
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: selling their wares to tourists and offering homestays. Kind of

407
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: cool um. After a day hike, a group of us

408
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,119
Speaker 1: ended up at a family home and they served us

409
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 1: a delicious dinner of traditional food and something they called

410
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: happy water. I liked some of them. Some made rice wine.

411
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: You can imagine why it's called nappy water. Got us

412
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: a little giggly to begin with, and what really got

413
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: us going was seeing the lady of the house nonchalantly

414
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: walk out of the kitchen with a cow's horn stuck

415
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: to her forehead as if she were a unicorn. When

416
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: we finally contained ourselves, we all felt like sleps because

417
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: our guide explained that this was a traditional way of

418
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: getting rid of headaches. You put on the you put

419
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: the horn in the fire, you brand it to your forehead,

420
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: and then after a short time, you take it off

421
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: for the next two weeks you have to run. Uh,

422
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 1: you have the round red mark on your forehead. Maybe

423
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: it hurt more than the headache and therefore took remind

424
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: uf of it. I'm not sure, doesn't that sounds like anyway?

425
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: This is my semi unicorn story. Thanks for the great

426
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: podcast from Ang. It was a Canadian listening in Indonesia

427
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: and say Vietnam again Vietnam and am well, thanks Ang

428
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: for that. UM. Actually, yes, that is definitely the closest

429
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: thing to an actual unicorn UM listener mail we've gotten

430
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: so far. Indeed, if you have any Cold War stories

431
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: or any unicorn stories, or your name is Ang or

432
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: contains those letters in that same arrangement, send us an email.

433
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: You can send it to Stuff podcast at how stuff

434
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

435
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 1: other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. Want more

436
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: how stuff works, check out our blogs on the how

437
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com home page. M