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Well. 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.560 Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:56.440 the check podcast. If you are waking up in the 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.640 Assella Corridor, I hope you don't have a foot of 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.400 snow outside those of us on the southern end of 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:06.520 the Slate Corridor or breathing a sigh of relief those 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.440 of you in New York that might be another story, 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.440 But for those of us that make content, it means 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.840 you have more time bundled up in your house or 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.240 you have to get out put the AirPods in. So 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:27.760 I hope I can be a useful distraction while you're shoveling, sweeping, 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:31.000 whatever you may be doing this morning. Look, it's a 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.320 packed episode. As you know. I did a quick sort 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:36.720 of emergency response as we got the big tariff ruling, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.520 and this is just such a monumental moment in the 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.959 Trump presidency. It's very well, we look back, this is 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:45.720 the beginning of the end. We may look back and 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.880 say Liberation Day was sort of when it all actually 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:49.600 was starting to come to an end. I'll get to 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.639 that point in a minute, but let me give you 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.160 a rundown of everything we're going to do. I'm going 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.000 to unpacked all things tariff, because look, an important moment, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:02.600 the democracy, the guard rails, separations, like all of the 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:12.000 features of this republic blossomed a bit. So that's that. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:15.560 And then you have a president responding as if he 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:20.560 is now his goal is to destroy his own party 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:22.160 in the midterms and do whatever it takes to help 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.600 the Democrats, because his initial response on this is politically catastrophic. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.800 But hey, by the time you're listening to this, we 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.600 also could be launching a new over the ron because 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:38.040 oh guess what, before the tariff ruling, we still have 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.320 the largest build up in the Middle East of military 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.880 assets since the start of the Iraq War. What's going on? 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.480 What are we up to? Congress still is not being told. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.760 Is this about the nuclear program? Is this about negotiation? 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.880 Is this about regiem change? The president who loves not 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:06.119 to explain his rationales, is I think underestimating how precarious 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.839 of a position he might be in here. But we'll see, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.960 and who knows. Maybe he's going to I mean, my goodness, 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.240 the State of the Union on Tuesday? Is he going 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.839 to announce that the missiles are dropping as he begins 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.400 to State of the Union? Does he want to step 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.440 on his own State of the Union? Is that his goal? 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:25.760 Does he want to announce something? Does he want does 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.160 he not want the specific does he have not maybe 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:33.520 he doesn't have much to say beyond or does he 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.280 rant and rave about the tariffs and complain about that? 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.400 Does he ask Congress for some help on this? So 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.880 we are in an incredibly precarious moment of his presidency, 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.359 though to say it's the most precarious is sort of 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.680 how do you pick right? We kind of live in 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.280 a constant state of turmoil and instability ever since he 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:54.919 came down that escalator. So we are in one of 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.920 those moments, massive economic instability. Small business is still trying 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:03.120 to figure out what comes now. But we got some 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:09.880 important institutional pushback on Trump's attempts to usurp power from Congress. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:11.360 So again, I'm gonna get to all that. Let me 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.279 give you, like I said, a quick rundown, I'm going 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.960 to break down. We got seven of the nine Supreme 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.960 Court justices felt like they had to express their own 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.400 view as to why they came to the decision. They 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.640 came seven of the nine. The only two justices not 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:31.160 to write their own separate either concurrence or dissent, Samuel 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:36.000 Alito and Sonya Soda mayor everybody else had something to say, 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.200 with the Neil Gorsuch concurring opinion being the most fascinating 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:41.560 of all of them. But we're going to get into that. 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.440 There's a brand new and ABC News poll out that 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.479 shows incredibly bad news for the President and Republicans. But 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.320 guess what doesn't show much good news for the Democrats. 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.239 I will get to that in a moment. I spent 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.320 part of my weekend at the Principal's First Conference at 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.480 the Gaylord Hotel in suburban Maryland outside of DC. They've built. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:07.520 This is their six six year gathering. It was an 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:12.719 impressive event it gave. I had a ton of in 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:18.880 moderator panel with Pat McCrory, Bill Crystal, and another member 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.000 of the Principal's First organization. And because it really is 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.960 a gathering of center rights, sort of ex Republicans lost 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.680 in dependence, a lot of military veterans and even a 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.240 few active duty people I met there who feel politically 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:41.599 lost but are alarmed by what's happened in this current 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.840 moment inside the Republican Party. So it was an interesting 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:50.280 conversation and I've I was moderating some interesting tension. Let's 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.400 just say Pat McCrory and Bill Crystal, well they both 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:56.400 have an agreement about Trump. They weren't unnecessarily on the 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.040 same page of what comes next and how to do this? 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.799 And I think that this is this is the debate 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:05.719 that many non you know, sort of independence and anti 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.279 Trump Republicans are having is do you try to save 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.000 the Republican Party? Do you try to start something new? 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.680 Do you try to get behind an independent or do 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.360 you make common cause with the Democrats temporarily? That debate 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:24.360 is a very lively discussion inside this group. I found 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:29.920 it to be shall we say, intellectual nourishing might be 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.800 a way to put it. Meanwhile, Team USA, right, how 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.840 do I I want to get to that? That's very exciting, 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:42.560 and I'm going to over I'm going to overanalyze the 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.280 period of time. We haven't won the Olympic hockey goal 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.440 since nineteen eighty. What's interesting is that in many ways 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:53.640 America in nineteen eighty, that in that February, January, February 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.880 and March period, that first quarter of the year nineteen eighty, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.960 we were in a meles We were isolated, We felt 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:04.320 isolated from the world. We aroan had our hostages, we 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.960 were a divided politically in a sort of beginning of 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.800 a political depression. Sounds familiar, doesn't right, By the way, 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.480 we had an unpopular president, and we have an unpopular president. 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:18.559 We have all of this, so and that Olympic gold 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:21.880 sort of was the beginning of you know, and we 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.720 ended up on a good sort of twenty year run, 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.120 you know, with a few ups and downs, but a 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:32.439 nice twenty year run. Arguably starting with that Olympic gold 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.120 all the way until nine to eleven. When you think 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.080 about america role in the world, all of those things, 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:40.440 end of the Cold War, et cetera, et cetera. So 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:45.280 you know, maybe this is a good omen. I choose 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.000 to believe it is a good open on that front. So, 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.000 and my conversation today is with filmmaker Gita Ganderbeer. She 0:08:53.720 --> 0:09:00.240 is the director and producer behind an incredible documentary that 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.720 is on Netflix at the moment called The Perfect Neighbor. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:09.000 It is unbelievable. It is unique technically only uses bodycam. 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:17.680 Basically it's majority bodycam footage. But I think it it. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:17.880 Is the. 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.600 In this day and age where we have so much 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.880 distrust of the you know, if this is just raw footage, 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.160 and it allows you, as the consumer of this documentary 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.800 to see for yourself what's happening in real time, to 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.559 see what appears to be a racist neighbor sort of viewing, 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.280 you know, and somebody who's broken, who's mentally having a breakdown, 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:48.360 somehow raised or has a core racism in her, is 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.640 whipped up by fear and grievance and then ends up 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:57.400 killing somebody through through her own front door. She just 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:05.480 a fellow neighbor. It's not an easy watch, but it's 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.560 important watch and I think you'll enjoy this conversation with Gita. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:17.800 So with that, let's unpack what the Supreme Court just did, 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:22.880 because after you know, our guardrails are battered, they're bruised, 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:27.400 but as we found out Friday, they still exist in 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:32.560 this constitutional republic, and frankly, the results not surprising. You know, 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.839 I got started with this relaunch of the check podcast. 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.719 It was in April, about a week before so called 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.080 liberation debt. And if you want to go back to 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:43.560 those earlier episodes to fact check me on this, I 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:46.040 can tell you I said, Look, these are not going 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.280 to be seen as constitutional. These will not survive a 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.960 court challenge. The only question is whether this ends up 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.960 costing all of us more money. Right, it's already cost 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.520 consumers money. Now there's going to be people looking for 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.680 their refund. And the irony is that the president is 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:07.240 now going to accelerate our debt and deficit in ways 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.439 that we already knew. He didn't really care about the 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.120 national debt or the deficit. Again, this is a guy 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.719 who's always borrowed other people's money, used it for himself, 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.560 declared bankruptcy, and walked away. Right, He's done it many, 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.480 many times, so of course he's going to do it 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.680 with the US government. He doesn't care about those things. 0:11:25.120 --> 0:11:27.320 He just doesn't sort of see it. And he certainly has. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:33.280 If he took basic macro and microeconomics in college, he 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.319 clearly didn't absorb anything with what he learned. I mean, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.000 this has been an economic disaster for the country. It 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:45.040 has been a terrible for global leadership. And again, we 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.800 I think may look back that this is in sort 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:51.840 of you know, I'm reminded of George W. Bush right 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.800 after he wins his second term and he pursues an 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:59.160 unpopular policy of privatizing social security just you know, blew 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.520 up in a faith, wanted to do immigration that wasn't 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:05.320 popular inside his own party, and eventually he had approval 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.719 rating somewhere in the mid ti thirties, and you had 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:14.080 a Democratic streep in that midterm of his second term, 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:18.439 and then the biggest Democratic essentially the biggest Democratic victory 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:23.040 in a presidential race, with the Democratic cannon getting over 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.520 fifty percent for the first time since Jimmy Carter. And 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:31.920 then before that LBJ. So that's what this sort of 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.640 and you know in the moment, you didn't quite know 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:41.720 when Bush was just never was had hit unrecoverable status 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.040 really until the election itself. So you know, I'm not 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.120 going to declare Trump dead. He's going to be president 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:48.839 for another two and a half years. He can make 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.160 a lot of trouble. How he responds to this moment 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.600 will tell us whether his political demise will get accelerated 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.559 or not. And I would say the first seventy two 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:02.000 hours his response tells me he wants you know, he 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.480 plans on going down with the ship here, and he 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:10.679 may burn his party down with it. So look, there 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:12.840 was a reason why I was pretty confident that these 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.760 tariffs were never going to be seen as legal, because 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.720 tariffs are taxes, and taxes live in Article one. Simple 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.000 as that. I mean, it was basically what Robert said, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:26.720 this is this is sort of high school constitutional law. Okay, 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.679 this is not even law school constitutional law. So when 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.480 you try to run a sweeping global tariff regime through 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.760 a nineteen seventy seven emergency statute that never mentions the 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.200 word tariff, you're taking a pretty big legal risk. Pretty 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.320 much open and shut case rightly. The only surprise to 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.400 me was that the ruling was six to three in 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.160 the court, not seven to two. It should have been 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.760 at nine zero. But I expected Alito and Thomas to 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.720 be partisans in here. They've never been serious jurists. Maybe 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.640 they were serious jurists, but not in the last ten 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.760 or fifteen years have they been serious. They've been always 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.400 take thief. What they believe is the own the Libs 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:08.560 partisan right. Never may never embarrass your own party in 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.920 any way. Anyway, The point is is that they they've 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.160 stopped being legal guys a long time ago. But I 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.079 thought both Corsa and Kavanaugh had come in here so mild. 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.280 The real surprise to me is that Kavanaugh ended up 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.800 in the descent on here, and it was interesting. He 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.720 of course had to write his own He wrote the 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:29.440 overall descent and he's hiding behind foreign policy, which of 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.440 all the weak arguments the Trump lawyers were making, it 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.600 was the strongest of the weak arguments. Was saying, well, 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.120 this is part of foreign policy, and a president has 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:43.080 to conduct foreign policy. Still, at its core, this was 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.400 not about trade. This was about who governs, who's in 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.920 charge of the purse in the United States of America. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.320 So the Court ruled six to three that the International 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:56.120 Emergency Economic Powers AIPA reminds me of the Simpsons movie 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.320 ep ba yepa, this is ai ba IPA. Sorry, I 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:02.240 couldn't help myself. So it does not authorize the president 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.200 to impose sweeping global tariffs. Six justices ended up in 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.600 the majority, three dissenters. But here's what matters. There were 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:15.920 seven opinions. Seven. Okay, that tells you something. This Court 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.320 agreed on the result, but not on the reasoning. Chief 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.120 Justice Roberts wrote the controlling opinion. His argument was institutional, straightforward. 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:28.400 Regulate importation does not equal impost tariffs. Simple as that 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:31.200 Congress knows how to say duties, Congress knows how to 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.600 say tariffs. It did not say either of those two 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.000 words in the i EPA legislation. Tariffs are taxation. Taxation 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.600 belongs to Congress. Hard stop. Then there's the there there's 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:46.320 the concurring opinion that I would want all of my 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.960 wanta be law school folks. And you know I always 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:52.040 joke I don't play a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer, 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.160 but I have been playing one on TV for a 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.680 long time. I am I'd like to think I have 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.600 gotten sort of a pretty decent legal education over the 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.960 last thirty years, as I love reading me some good 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.920 Supreme Court opinions or just sense at times, because you 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.000 learn a lot about the politics of the court when 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.160 you do. And he wrote separately, and he leaned hard 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.880 into what's known as the major Questions doctrine. And then 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:22.080 he also called out pretty much five of his colleagues, 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.600 by the way, kind of amusing, but still before we 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.080 get to what he called him out on, he was 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.360 tackling major Questions, right, which is the idea that when 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:35.040 a president claims extraordinary economic power, Congress must speak clearly. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:37.320 And here's where it gets interesting, or so it's called 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.760 out all of his colleagues, first the liberals for what 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.320 he described frankly as a flip flop, because he basically said, hey, 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.480 you opposed this idea of the major questions when it 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:53.080 limited democratic administrations, in particular Biden on issues involving COVID 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.160 in the workplace, COVID mandates, and the student loan issue. 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.720 But now you're using the same structural instinct. Justice Kagan, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.040 she was joined by Sotomayor, agreed with the outcome. But 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.439 rejected the idea this was a major question issue. She 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:12.840 said that the ordinary statutory interpretation was enough. Essentially, she 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:14.280 was trying to defend the fact that she was not 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:19.080 flip popping here. She was trying to disaggregate the rationale 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.520 she used to be in favor of Biden using emergency 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.240 powers to do the student loan cuts, and she was 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.720 trying to essentially separate it from her what appears to 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:35.920 be literally the opposite point of view, which to somebody 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.600 with no skin in the game, you know, the same way. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.120 It looks like robertson excuse me, Thomas and Alito were 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.520 partisans here. Essentially, of course, is saying he said, hey, 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.520 looks like Kagan, So to my own Jackson essentially have 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:57.040 been partisan here as well. Then you have Justice Brown Jackson. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.280 She leaned into legislative history, saying Congress never intended AEPA 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.840 to become a tariff machine, and therefore that's why she 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.119 came to the same conclusion as roberts On the other side, 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.600 Justice Kavanaugh wrote the principal dissent in his argument foreign 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.720 affairs is different. He saw this as part of foreign affairs. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.000 So the president traditionally has brought her authority here and 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.919 major questions doctrines shouldn't apply in the same way in 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.280 trade and diplomacy. Then Justice Thomas went even further, arguing 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.880 Congress can delegate tariff authority broadly. He basically said, nope, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.760 these emergency powers delegated it all away, and the President 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.800 was perfectly within his constitutional rights to do all of this. 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.639 So to say this was it your typical liberal conservative 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.080 split is an understated It was a structural split, and 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.320 that matters. And by the way, just a little history 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:46.240 lesson here, because I was curious, how often have we 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:50.520 had seven of the nine justices all write their own 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:56.280 either supporting opinions or dissent. Well, in nineteen seventy one, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.399 during the Pentagon Paper's case New York Times versus the 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.119 United States, all nine justices wrote their own opinion. They 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.760 agreed on the ruling, but they did not agree on 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.280 how they got there right. They went nine nothing, but 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:14.040 they ended up having individual opinions explaining that away a 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:17.120 case that effectively struck down all existing death penalty laws 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.200 in the United States. Furman versus Georgia nineteen seventy two, 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.199 same thing, All nine justices wrote their own rationales for 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.560 how they got to their opinion, and then of course 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.080 dread Scott, the infamous dread Scott decision, one of the 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:34.680 worst in the history of the Supreme Court, also featured 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.960 all nine justices in the last few decades. Seven opinions 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.040 usually signal a massive turf war between the different wings 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.160 of the Court. And as I've told you, there's three 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:50.320 distinct wings of the court, okay, and I think Gorcious 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.800 and Kavanaugh are sort of somewhere in between the two 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.800 of the conservative wings. Right, you have sort of a 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:01.040 institutionalist conservative wing which is anchored by Roberts and Barrett. 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.600 Kavanaugh mostly is with them on these institutional rulings. In 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.040 this case it was Gorsich, not Kavanaugh. Thomas and Alito 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.080 are usually in the more on the on the further 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.199 further the right spectrum, a little more in favor of 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:20.880 even stronger executive authority essentially, but a bit more partisan, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.680 you know. There takes seem to be grounded in well, 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:25.199 what ruling do we want to get to, and then 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:27.080 they find a rationale to get there. And then of 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.760 course you have the three liberals that rarely do they 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.600 do they break ranks. So it is a. I think 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.359 a court that is split more in three than it 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.399 is in two, because that's what Donald Trump does, right. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.760 He has divided his own party in that case, and 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.280 you see that divide on on on the Supreme Court. 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:52.280 So I think that is there a is there is 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.160 there that? Or is this a case where they all 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:56.199 wanted to explain their own rationale? And I think it 0:20:56.280 --> 0:21:03.760 is clear that they really didn't agree on they you know, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:08.240 you had a strong majority agree that the president overstepped 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:15.880 his constitutional overstepped his constitutional authority, but they just disagreed 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:21.840 on exactly what how he overstepped that authority. Still I 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:23.720 can't help but when you when you look at it, 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:29.880 sort of seven responses like that, it really is sort 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.240 of it reminds me of the coalition against Trump in general, right, 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.360 which is there's a large majority of the country, say 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:41.440 fifty five sixty percent that don't like how Trump governs, 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:48.720 the general direction that Trump is taking on. This episode 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.800 of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you by Zebiotics. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.160 Let's face it, after a night with drinks, it's hard 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.280 to bounce back the next day. You have to make 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.280 a choice either have a great night or a great 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.119 next day. 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But it is it does 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.439 sort of the fragmented court knows that Trump is an 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:29.080 unconstitutional president and probably the most abuse abusive of the 0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:33.320 constitution of any president we've had, going even Nixon included. 0:25:33.440 --> 0:25:38.280 And yet right there you can't get a coherent, singular 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:42.600 message to sort of take them on, and even in 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:46.480 the legal community, you can't do that. Now there's Trump's response, 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:49.119 And as I said on Friday, before knowing Trump's response, 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:51.720 I said, he's the wild card here. There was a 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:55.520 real opportunity right this This economy sucks, people don't like it, 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:58.240 and you know, these tariffs have been attacked on consumers. 0:25:58.720 --> 0:26:01.560 It is served as inflationary. In fact, earlier, just before 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:04.800 this tarif ruling came out, we got news the economic 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.919 growth stagnated massively in the fourth quarter, right under one 0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:11.200 and a half percent growth, which is just terrible. Anything 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:14.440 under two doesn't even allow us to sort of keep 0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:18.520 up with inflation. That is not good, and it is 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.280 part of it is attributed to the shutdown, but there 0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:24.240 also has been this continued, you know, as we're seeing, 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:29.560 you know, for about six months many businesses tried actually 0:26:29.600 --> 0:26:32.160 not to pass on the cost of the tariffs that 0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:35.680 ended in the last quarter and the begin and we've 0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:38.480 seen in January a lot of price spikes in particular, 0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:43.560 all of that has gone away. And that's so so ironically, 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:45.800 you know, the best thing that could have happened to 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:49.320 the Congressional Republicans was for these tariffs to be viewed 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:54.919 as unconstitutional. That's if Trump would go along and accept 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:59.080 the premise that the Supreme Court is correct here. That's 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:01.760 not what he's doing. And this is what should make 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:02.640 all of us pause here. 0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:02.800 Man. 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:07.800 The President didn't respond by arguing on the merits. He 0:27:07.880 --> 0:27:11.840 didn't argue about the statutory interpretation. He didn't respond by 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:16.560 seeing the court misread history. He responded by doing what 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.960 he does best, attacking his own appointees for simply being disloyal. 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:24.240 And it is a reminder, right if we did not 0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:31.200 have lifetime appointment to Supreme Court. He tried to fire Gorsage, 0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:35.359 he tried to fire Barrett, just like he's doing with 0:27:35.440 --> 0:27:38.960 the Fed. So just keep that in mind. The bounders 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.199 knew that. I mean, look, none of us love this 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:44.480 lifetime appointment business. And maybe we should have age limits, 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:46.679 and there's some ways to end it. But what you 0:27:46.720 --> 0:27:50.000 cannot have as an executive having the ability to fire 0:27:50.040 --> 0:27:53.680 somebody in another branch of government. And obviously our founders 0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:56.439 knew that, and that's why it's important to give Supreme 0:27:56.440 --> 0:28:01.760 Court justices this. So here he is personally attack Neil 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:05.160 Gorsuch and Amy Cony Barrett. Neil Gorsuch, who was voted 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:07.560 with Trump quite a bit. In fact, he's rarely in 0:28:07.640 --> 0:28:10.359 that institutional Every once in a while he surprises you. 0:28:10.960 --> 0:28:13.600 I was pretty convinced he'd be with the seven to 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:17.280 two majority, Like I said, the surprise for me was capital. 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:23.040 But Trump did the usual personalization, right, he said, this 0:28:23.119 --> 0:28:25.960 was an embarrassment to their families. So he's attacking the 0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:28.240 families of Neil Gorsuch and Amy Coney Barr. And we 0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:32.080 know when Trump does this, it does it does you 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:37.399 know all of a sudden there are mentally unstable people 0:28:37.400 --> 0:28:40.680 out there who start doxing people start going after it is. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.120 It is terrible what he does, and it's designed as 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:46.360 a chilling effect, right, what you know, he goes after 0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:50.680 anybody that was supposedly that he viewed as on his side, 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:52.800 and when they break ranks, he he goes after him 0:28:52.840 --> 0:28:55.680 in nasty ways because he's trying to prevent it from 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.200 happening again. He's afraid it's going to get contagious. But 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:03.360 here's the thing, more and more people, more and more Republicans. 0:29:03.400 --> 0:29:05.760 I think this is why I think this could be 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:11.360 such an important moment that the breaking points don't happen. 0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:16.840 The breaking points are realized six months after that breaking 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:20.720 point happens, right, And so you know, if we go 0:29:20.840 --> 0:29:24.680 on and I promise you Democrats sweep the midterms, we'll say, Okay, 0:29:24.800 --> 0:29:27.200 this thing started collapsing. And it really sort of took 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:31.360 another nose dive with the Supreme Court ruling and then 0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.600 his just unhinged response to it. And look, we're all 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:36.840 kind of numb to this. Oh, just another day at 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:40.200 the office. He's just attacking members Supreme Court. He also 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:44.240 thinks there's some conspiracy blaming foreign influence. You have the 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.960 conspiracy of these foreigners right there infiltrating the Supreme Court. 0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:51.440 This is some foreign influence campaign on Justices Gorsach and 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:53.160 amy Cony. Barrett. Let's take it all the way through. 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:55.880 Tell me how that works, mister President. Tell me how 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:58.440 there's foreign influence on Neil Gorsich. Tell me how there's 0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:01.040 foreign influence on John Roberts. You know you can't. You're 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:03.720 gonna throw this out there. Give me some details. Show 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:07.360 your proof. I'm sure your proof is with the with 0:30:07.400 --> 0:30:10.479 the with all the stuff you found out during when 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:13.080 you when you swore that you had evidence that Barack 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:16.360 Obama wasn't born in the United States. I'm sure that 0:30:16.440 --> 0:30:19.360 evidence is in the same place at the evidence of 0:30:19.360 --> 0:30:24.560 of that's somehow foreign interest swayed Neil Gorsach and Amy 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:29.880 Cony Barrett. Show your evidence. You don't do that. What 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:33.000 you do is you count on your lapdog supporters to 0:30:33.200 --> 0:30:35.920 just take your accusation and run with it, and you 0:30:35.960 --> 0:30:40.280 count on algorithms to amplify it and make it seem 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:44.200 like a legitimate talking point. It's disgusting, it's awful, and yeah, 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:47.360 we already have Look, another person came after you, mister 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:52.320 President at mar A Lago. All right, stop this. The 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:54.840 more you do this stuff, the more you put everybody 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:58.440 at risk physically. You're putting the lives in dangers of 0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:03.800 two Supreme Court justices that you appointed, You appointed these people, 0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:09.280 and you're attacking them and attacking their families. It's outrageous 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:13.040 and it's awful. And the again, right, you have an 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:16.080 entire Republican party who just doesn't respond to this anymore. 0:31:16.960 --> 0:31:19.960 I understand rationally why they don't. Doesn't get him anywhere, 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.480 just causes more problems for them, And it's all sort 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:28.280 of self preservation is why you don't speak out. But folks, 0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:32.880 he is super weak. This is the absolute definition of 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:36.560 an emperor with no clothes, and every day we keep 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:40.080 finding out how little he's wearing under his little garments there. 0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:50.000 So he obviously is decided not to not to do 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:53.520 this the normal way any other president when they're set back, 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.240 they criticize the court, they're frustrated, they say this or that, 0:31:57.160 --> 0:31:59.959 but then they are like, figure out another way. Maybe 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.280 they want to work with Congress. But nope. He doesn't 0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:05.800 view his loss as a constitutional issue. He viewsed the 0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:09.760 loss as a loyalty issue. But let's go back to April. 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:15.200 And this is why I fear long term impact of 0:32:15.280 --> 0:32:19.320 Trump less than most people do. He really is lazy. 0:32:20.080 --> 0:32:24.400 I mean, he is super lazy. Right. I often used 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:27.640 the joke look he's too lazy to be Hitler, he's 0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:30.040 too lazy to be Orbon, he's too lazy to be 0:32:30.080 --> 0:32:32.920 air to one. Okay, forget any of these other you know, 0:32:33.280 --> 0:32:36.120 forget using the north star of the Nazis. Right, just 0:32:36.160 --> 0:32:39.360 picked today's sort of authoritarians. Too lazy to be Orbon, 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:43.360 too lazy to be air to one. Right. Imagine, you know, 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:47.080 he actually had some political capital in the first ninety 0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:51.640 days of his administration, and he could have probably strong 0:32:51.760 --> 0:32:54.600 armed his narrow congressional majorities in the House and Senate 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:58.040 to give him the authority if he simply said back 0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:03.560 in late March, Hey, Congress, I want I want specific 0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:06.280 tariff authority. I'm going to I'm a better negotiator than 0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:08.520 you are. I'm going to negotiate these trade deals, but 0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:11.479 I need to control the tariff. I need you to 0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:15.720 delegate tariff authority to the president. Let's debate it, let's 0:33:15.760 --> 0:33:18.840 vote on it. And there'd have been wouldn't have been easy, 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:23.440 and he may not have won that argument, but that 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:26.320 is how you try to win an argument. And then 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:27.720 if you can't win the argument, then he can go 0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:31.520 find his own Republicans to challenge the primary folks and 0:33:31.640 --> 0:33:34.000 you try to do it that way. It's what FDR 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:37.560 would do when he had racal centrin Democrats to some 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:42.840 of his ideas, but he also had pretty decent political 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:46.440 capital with Republicans in that moment. You certainly know he 0:33:46.440 --> 0:33:48.600 would have strong armed the House at that time. Right, 0:33:48.640 --> 0:33:50.680 he was pretty much the House Speaker at that point, 0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:54.560 and John Thune was in go along, get along mode. 0:33:57.520 --> 0:33:59.360 I know, McConnell and you know. And they could have 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.160 done it through the reconciliation process when they were doing 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:06.360 their big beautiful bill. They were too lazy to pursue 0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:07.920 because it's what was it going to be hard? They 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.360 were going to have to do some good old fashioned 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:16.400 horse trading. But remember, right, the greatest weakness Donald Trump 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.399 has is his laziness. It will always be the key 0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:24.640 as to why he didn't have the success he could 0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:28.120 have had in business. Right, too lazy in the casino 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.640 business to right, he didn't want to deal with competitors, 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:34.560 so bought them up, drowned himself in debt, and walked away. Right, 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:38.200 He's just always looking for a shortcut. Right, Donald Trump 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:43.040 has shortcuted his way to being a billionaire. Good for him. 0:34:44.680 --> 0:34:47.040 He's used the power of the federal government to actually 0:34:47.120 --> 0:34:52.040 make himself a billionaire. Again a shortcut. But as president, 0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:55.000 his agenda is failing and he's failing to remake the 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:58.200 American economy in his vision because he's too lazy to 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.719 work with Congress. Bottom line, had he done that, he'd 0:35:01.800 --> 0:35:04.760 had a shot. Markets would have been calmer, his political 0:35:04.760 --> 0:35:07.720 capital was fresher, Party was more unified in that moment, 0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:12.319 and he wouldn't have gotten all the authority he would 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.400 have wanted, but he would have gotten some targeted authority 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:17.919 and it would have been legitimate. But again, he didn't 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:21.600 want to bother He wanted speed, he wanted leverage, immediate leverage. 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:25.040 He wanted unilateral control. But it's lazy because doing it 0:35:25.239 --> 0:35:27.400 doing it every way I'm describing is a little bit harder. 0:35:28.239 --> 0:35:31.239 It's effort, It takes it. You have to have an 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:36.080 attention span a little bit greater than a nat Well, 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:38.239 we know he doesn't. So he reached for the emergency 0:35:38.280 --> 0:35:43.319 powers because they worked so well during COVID. So he 0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:47.760 loves these shortcut emergency powers that Stephen Miller consistently finds 0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.360 for him now. And he didn't want to have a 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:54.480 debate in his own Party, and this avoids deliberation. Well, 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:59.120 guess what his shortcut ran into Article one. So within 0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:02.280 hours of the ruling, Trump announces a new global baseline 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:05.680 tariff under Section one twenty two of the nineteen seventy 0:36:05.760 --> 0:36:09.040 four Trade Act. So he's going back even further now 0:36:09.600 --> 0:36:14.239 in congressional authorization to try to find a legal way 0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:17.040 around this. By the way, this new fifteen percent flat 0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:19.640 tariff that he's sent across the board expires in one 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:24.440 hundred and fifty days, so it is he's going to 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:26.759 need to go to Congress if he wants to continue it. 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:32.600 I'm looking forward to Congress weighing in on this. This 0:36:32.680 --> 0:36:35.040 is where it belongs, and I think it's going to 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:37.839 be quite the MRI. We're going to find out where 0:36:37.840 --> 0:36:40.000 the Republican Party is today. Because one thing that has 0:36:40.040 --> 0:36:43.879 been true since Donald Trump took his second oath of office. 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:49.440 Every day he's lost a Republican supporter. Every day or 0:36:49.480 --> 0:36:54.000 every week, somebody leaves the reservation. Nobody he has not 0:36:54.400 --> 0:36:57.799 added anybody to his coalition. You see it in the 0:36:57.840 --> 0:37:00.520 form of elected officials breaking from him. You see it 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:03.600 obviously in all of these in all of these polls. 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:08.120 But what his response to this ruling is not good 0:37:08.200 --> 0:37:10.160 in the short term. This will be good in the 0:37:10.200 --> 0:37:13.040 long term because we've established some guard raids, but it's 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:14.759 going to be unstable in the short term. We have 0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:18.240 a bunch of instability where they'll be refunds. Justice Kavanaugh 0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:20.399 warned of chaos. Yeah, I mean, there was no reason 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:24.520 to violate the Constitution, But there is some truth to this. Yes, 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:27.840 there's chaos. The importers had to pay billions under this 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:33.560 i epa misuse of the IEPA authority. They're going to sue. 0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:38.080 They're going to want their money back. Sounds like the 0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:40.080 government's going to fight having to give any of the 0:37:40.120 --> 0:37:44.759 money back. These are lawsuits could take years. It's not 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:48.360 good for small businesses that need to deal with imports. 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:50.959 It's not good for any business, but small businesses. Big 0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:55.480 business can can figure out how to mitigate the impact 0:37:55.520 --> 0:37:58.520 of this on their on their bottom lines. They can 0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:00.799 write it down right, they can, and they can get 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:03.319 some tax savings out of something like this. But boy, 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:05.799 small business, this is a killer. That's why it was 0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:08.440 NFIB was a part of the groups, a part of 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:10.440 the bigger group of people that were suing over this, 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:14.440 and oh By the way, the President just exploded the 0:38:14.440 --> 0:38:17.840 deficit with his illegal tariffs, because what looked like was 0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:21.400 going to be the ability to actually see some revenue 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:26.400 come into the country used to at least shrink the 0:38:26.440 --> 0:38:28.799 deficit annual deficit. I don't think we were going to 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:30.800 make any progress on the debt itself, but to shrink 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:34.399 the deficit, well, now, if you've removed it, you know 0:38:34.760 --> 0:38:36.880 he was. Look, this has always been part of a 0:38:37.000 --> 0:38:41.359 larger project. As I've tried to let try to walk 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.440 people through, we're ultimately the goal here. The people that 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:47.120 have really gotten a hold of Trump are the folks 0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:49.600 that want to get rid of income taxes. And you've 0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:51.839 seen in the States, you've seen attempts to get rid 0:38:51.840 --> 0:38:53.759 of property taxes. There are a whole bunch of people 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:57.520 that want to move all taxation back to being consumption oriented, right, 0:38:57.640 --> 0:39:00.279 much more like a vat tax, like the European right 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:02.960 that everything is consumption oriented. Well, guess what that was 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:07.560 our tax policy before we before the sixteenth Amendment and 0:39:08.000 --> 0:39:11.680 legalized income taxes. And you know what, that was worse 0:39:12.239 --> 0:39:15.120 for everybody, and it meant poor people paid a lion's 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.439 share of the taxes. Rich people hid from paying most 0:39:17.480 --> 0:39:21.520 taxes because they were consumption based and the impact was 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.200 much greater on lower income people than it wasn't higher 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:27.400 income people, which is what made the income tax popular 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:29.960 in that time. It was to it was to make 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:33.880 the rich start paying their fair share. And here we 0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:36.200 go again, right, it's rich and wealthy people. They don't 0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:38.759 want it. They think that once they have money, they 0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:42.799 shouldn't get taxed on it until they spend it, and 0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:48.960 dindo with their property. Well, good luck funding any service 0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:52.680 that government provides today if you take away income taxes 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:55.440 and property taxes. But we are going to have a 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:58.040 ton of instability now for a while. Right, he's going 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.120 to all right, so we found one hundred fIF the 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:02.000 day's worth of ways to do tariffs. So he's going 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:03.680 to find there's sort of five or six, my friend 0:40:03.680 --> 0:40:06.480 Bruce Melman, go check out his substack. There's five or 0:40:06.480 --> 0:40:12.160 six other pieces of various authorities that he can start 0:40:12.239 --> 0:40:16.160 to rebuild his tariff structure. And he'll do that, but 0:40:16.200 --> 0:40:21.000 it's going to cause all sorts of instability in prices. 0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:23.799 Prices aren't going to come down, they're only going to 0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:28.040 go up. And at this point, right, you think Oh, great, 0:40:28.040 --> 0:40:29.640 there's going to be no terriff. But as a business, 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:31.120 you have to plan that there's going to be some 0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:38.239 more tariffs somewhere. So this is a mess. But you know, 0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:43.279 did anybody expect Donald Trump to leave? I mean, at 0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:47.479 this point, when he leaves office on January twenty, twenty 0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:50.240 twenty nine, we're going to have half the White House 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.600 probably not be rebuilt, a Kennedy Center that's gutted and 0:40:55.680 --> 0:41:04.280 not finished, half built structure, and an economy in tatters 0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:07.160 because of the mess he has created with this tariffs. 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:10.759 So let's zoom out internationally. What's going to happen all 0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:14.120 these trade deals he cut using this illegal tariff authority. 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:17.520 How many countries are going to say, hey, we want 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:20.279 a new deal. The deal we cut is no longer operational. 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:23.440 I think quite a few countries are going to do that. 0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:27.920 So if the tool he used for leverage is unstable, 0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:30.080 then the leverage itself shrinks. And oh, by the way, 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:32.680 he still hasn't finished this trade deal with China and 0:41:32.719 --> 0:41:35.600 he's going to meet with she in April. My god, 0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:38.520 has it ever been a better environment for the Chinese 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:42.400 than the environment Trump is created? Now he's alienated every 0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:47.320 major ally the United States has right handing over China, 0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:50.279 you know, handing, Canada and India, all these in the 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:56.000 European Union better trade relations with China than with the 0:41:56.120 --> 0:42:01.319 United States. And he has sort of usurped his own 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:04.839 leverage that he was trying to manufacture in going back 0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:10.799 and forth. Heck of a job, Trumpy, because every foreign 0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:12.239 leader is going to look at the Supreme Court rule 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:15.200 and go Court's gonna intervene. We may there may be 0:42:15.200 --> 0:42:19.160 some refunds. Congress may have to insert its control again, 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:21.560 why do we have to negotiate with Trump on these 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:26.400 trade deals? So we'll see, it's going to be a mess. 0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:31.560 But Donald Trump's been weakened quite a bit. So here's 0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:34.680 where it's going to get interesting politically if this now 0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:37.759 moves to Congress, and we'll see, right Mike Johnson does 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.359 not want to put these votes out there now. I mean, 0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:43.000 right now, Trump's going to be super vulnerable to Republicans 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:46.480 walking away from him, right, I mean, we've already seen 0:42:48.360 --> 0:42:50.759 a handful of Republicans and Trump got angry when a 0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:54.080 when a Colorado Republican voted against voted to get rid 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.720 of that symbolic vote to get rid of the Canadian tariffs, 0:42:56.719 --> 0:43:01.000 and Trump withdrew his endorsement endorsed his primary opponent. Uh Now, 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:04.080 in some ways, if Trump wants to try to purge 0:43:04.080 --> 0:43:10.160 his party and reorient it around his protectionist vision for 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:13.319 for the United States, then this is how he's you know, 0:43:13.400 --> 0:43:15.520 he's going to have to go find more like minded 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:18.279 folks and get them elected to Congress. But I'll tell 0:43:18.280 --> 0:43:21.200 you this, Colorado's have always been a free trade state. 0:43:21.360 --> 0:43:24.359 Colorado's was one of those states that, you know, while 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:27.239 they lean left there, they're you know, they're not anti 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:31.799 right to work, not the most pro union state. They 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:35.360 don't like tariffs. It's free trade state. I have a 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:39.520 feeling that Jeff heard, the congressman that Trump wants endorsed 0:43:39.560 --> 0:43:41.919 and has now unendorsed, knows his electorate better than Donald 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:45.920 Trump knows that electorate. So bottom line is this is 0:43:45.960 --> 0:43:48.560 an MRI moment for the Republican Party. Right We're going 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:52.640 to find out who is still a free market conservative 0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:57.960 and who isn't. So we'll find out if they're how 0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:00.440 big this fracture is. We know there's a small fracture 0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:04.239 in the Republican Party over trading tariffs. We know there's 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:08.960 a silent minority. I still think it's close to a majority. 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.760 That's close to a majority that doesn't like these tariffs, 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:16.800 but they're scared to say anything publicly. You got to 0:44:16.840 --> 0:44:24.920 cover the Supreme Court. Well, we see more folks, especially 0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:30.640 as balloting gets closer, expose themselves as free marketeers. We'll 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:35.200 see and there might be votes. A rational reaction by 0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:38.040 a president would be to try to get authority in Congress, 0:44:38.080 --> 0:44:39.799 try to persuade, try to find a way to do this. 0:44:40.960 --> 0:44:42.680 I don't know if he's going to try to do 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:47.400 this that way. I don't I don't expect him. I mean, 0:44:47.480 --> 0:44:52.440 he's already responded as I mean literally, A Democratic strategist 0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:56.480 said to me, if I could have scripted Trump's reaction 0:44:56.640 --> 0:44:59.840 to this ruling, I couldn't have scripted it any better. 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:04.160 I mean, he is. He is owning that every tax 0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:07.360 hike now in the country, every consumer tax hit. He 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.320 just announced a fifteen percent tax hide and consumer goods 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:14.279 across the board, So you now know that if you're 0:45:14.320 --> 0:45:18.560 paying more, it is directly associated with Trump's economy. It's unbelievable. 0:45:21.400 --> 0:45:24.279 So I said in April this would likely end in 0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:28.040 the situation we're in now. The only surprise was that 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.120 the ruling wasn't even more emphatic it was seven two 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.160 or nine zero. But what happens next is far more important. 0:45:34.160 --> 0:45:38.160 Does Congress reassert its authority in the moment? Do we 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:43.000 see free market republicans speak out publicly? Does the loyalty 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:47.520 tests continue by Trump? If Gorsach and Barrett are disloyal 0:45:47.880 --> 0:45:51.359 for reading a statute narrowly? What happens the next time 0:45:51.800 --> 0:45:55.360 the disagreement is over something bigger than Tariff's So this 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.120 wasn't about trade policy. This is about how we govern 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:03.360 and whether we have three co equal branches of government. 0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:10.360 And Donald Trump shortcut just ran straight headlong into the 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:16.000 brick wall that is the US Constitution. And guess what, 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:19.680 He's super unpopular at the moment. Let me tell you 0:46:19.680 --> 0:46:21.560 about a new poll in the Washington Post. I want 0:46:21.600 --> 0:46:24.040 to run through this for a few minutes before we 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:26.719 get to the interview. Now, it's a poll of all adults, 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:29.600 and so far as we've seen the pattern, when it's adults, 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:32.160 it's his job approval can't get out of the thirties. 0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:35.319 When it's registered voters, you'll see his job approval. It's 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:41.080 somewhere in the forty one two percent range. Sixty disapproved. 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.960 It's that disapproval number is huge. Here's a few more things. 0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:46.759 Do you approve a disapproval of the way Trump is 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:49.200 handling This is again Washington Post Ipso's pole. So it's 0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:55.319 a you, gov, i'm, i'm, it's episodes. I'M it's not 0:46:55.360 --> 0:47:00.279 my favorite methodology. But look that ship has sailed, but 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:03.960 he is upside down on every single issue. He's got 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:07.800 a majorities disapproving of him on every issue. They tested 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:11.759 us Mexican border. Fifty percent disapprove of his policy. That 0:47:11.920 --> 0:47:14.880 was the best issue he performed on. Forty seven percent 0:47:14.880 --> 0:47:18.640 approve of his border policy, Fifty eight percent disapprove of 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:22.360 his immigration policies, fifty seven percent disapprove of his handling 0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:26.600 of the economy, sixty two percent disapprove of the relations 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:30.680 that he has with other countries, sixty four percent disapprove 0:47:30.680 --> 0:47:36.840 of the tariffs, and sixty five percent hate this inflationary 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:40.359 Now here's the thing that ought to scare democrats. Americans 0:47:40.480 --> 0:47:42.560 are split on who they trust to handle the country's 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:45.600 main problems. Here's the specific wording of the question. Overall, 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:47.280 who do you trust to do a better job handling 0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:50.719 the country's main problems Trump. Of the Democrats in Congress, well, 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:54.760 thirty three percent picked Trump, thirty one percent pick Democrats 0:47:54.760 --> 0:48:02.080 in Congress. Thirty one percent said neither. How about that? Right? 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:04.319 Does that not tell you where America really is? Right? 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:07.360 You know, you basically have the base of the basis 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:09.840 of two parties saying one thing and everybody else feeling 0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:12.480 I don't trust either one of these parties at the moment, 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:18.279 you know, you know, I continue to wonder, is this 0:48:18.360 --> 0:48:22.160 an opportunity for a third party and independent? Does this? 0:48:22.480 --> 0:48:25.239 You know, are Democrats going to realize they have a 0:48:25.320 --> 0:48:29.399 huge problem that their brand is shit. They are seen 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:32.320 as way too liberal, way too progressive, way outside the 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:34.960 mainstream on some of these issues, and this is why 0:48:35.000 --> 0:48:38.279 they don't have confidence and sort of the rest of 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:41.920 the electorate. Right the base is animated on hat and Trump, 0:48:43.719 --> 0:48:47.239 and that might be enough in the midterm, but this 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:51.440 poll is still revealing as again, Donald Trump unpopular in 0:48:51.480 --> 0:48:55.360 every single issue that matters to Americans. The fact that 0:48:55.400 --> 0:48:58.800 this is not a blowout, that Democrats aren't more trusted 0:48:58.880 --> 0:49:01.799 right now to handle everything than Trump by ten or 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:04.840 fifteen or twenty points. It's a reflection on the Democratic 0:49:04.920 --> 0:49:13.000 grand that's that's just a reminder of a red flag, 0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:16.440 all right. I like I said, I've got a terrific 0:49:16.440 --> 0:49:20.200 interview with Get to gainda Beer here it is, like 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:24.879 I said, the perfect neighbor is I used the MRI 0:49:25.080 --> 0:49:29.400 metaphor before. I think it's an MRI and race and 0:49:29.440 --> 0:49:33.439 culture in America a little bit. Some of our gun 0:49:33.520 --> 0:49:37.800 laws are stand your ground laws is sort of relevant 0:49:37.800 --> 0:49:42.240 in here. But here's the beauty of this documentary again, 0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:48.880 using only footage from body camera, no narration, no talking heads, 0:49:49.640 --> 0:49:52.319 it is a classication. You get to decide your own 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:56.480 reaction without letting others try to influence you and tell 0:49:56.520 --> 0:49:59.200 you what you're seeing. You're seeing it all raw and 0:49:59.239 --> 0:50:03.640 in real time. And I highly encourage it. I really do, 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:09.239 because I think it will when you hear people say that, 0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:14.600 you know, it is just a reminder that we've raised 0:50:14.640 --> 0:50:17.279 a lot of racists in this country multiple generations, and 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:20.319 it's going to take a while for us to eradicate 0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:26.160 that strain, that virus out of the American society. We're 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:32.560 making progress, not fast enough, and this, this this documentary 0:50:32.640 --> 0:50:34.760 will tell you that. So let's sneak in a break 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:37.400 and when we come back to my conversation about the 0:50:37.400 --> 0:50:44.120 perfect name. Do you hate hangovers, We'll say goodbye to hangovers. 0:50:44.120 --> 0:50:46.640 Out of Office gives you the social buzz without the 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:49.120 next day regret. They're best selling. 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And the standard ground 0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:24.120 law will come into play here a minute, but it's 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:27.120 a story that's more. This is not a gun story. 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:29.720 This is a society story. This is a story of race, 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.720 This is a story of policing. This is a story 0:54:32.760 --> 0:54:37.400 of how we live together as Americans. And it's incredibly 0:54:37.440 --> 0:54:42.840 powerful and it couldn't have been done without bodycam footage. 0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:46.160 So if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix now, 0:54:46.239 --> 0:54:54.399 I highly recommend it. It's powerful, it's disturbing. It's also heartbreaking, 0:54:55.480 --> 0:54:58.359 as we were just discussing its grief and rage, as 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:01.440 Gita will tell you wrapped up in one and Pizza 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.200 joined me. Now, Gita, how did I do introducing your film? 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:06.680 That was great? Thank you so much for having me. 0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:11.240 You're first of all, it's nominated for all sorts of awards. 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:14.080 How important is an Academy award to you? 0:55:14.760 --> 0:55:18.319 So the Academy Award is a huge honor. I think 0:55:18.360 --> 0:55:21.759 it's every you know, it's a dream. Honestly, it's a dream. 0:55:21.520 --> 0:55:24.440 And sometimes feels like a pipe dream, you know, in 0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:25.720 our in our field. 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:30.719 But I think what makes it so significant it's that 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:35.040 it's our peers who vote right, people that we admire, 0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:39.120 people that inspire us, our idols, our colleagues, you know, 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:44.239 so that community feels so meaningful, and the idea that 0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:48.120 they choose your film of the many, many many disturbing 0:55:48.200 --> 0:55:53.360 films means so much. So that makes it an incredible honor. 0:55:53.560 --> 0:55:58.320 Again, a dream. I think beyond that though, to all. 0:55:58.200 --> 0:56:01.279 The awards really give us platform to talk about the 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:04.839 issues that and the impact that we want to have 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:08.080 goes far beyond the film. We're really hoping for change, 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:10.880 that the film will be a vehicle for change. 0:56:11.080 --> 0:56:14.319 So I think the the. 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:17.200 There's two things that come into play with the awards. 0:56:17.280 --> 0:56:20.960 The just the owner of it all and so grateful 0:56:20.960 --> 0:56:23.200 that the platform is equally important. 0:56:24.160 --> 0:56:26.920 No, and you know, kudos to Netflix for making you know, 0:56:27.000 --> 0:56:29.480 for promoting it. Not just there's one thing to just 0:56:29.520 --> 0:56:31.839 put it on your streamer. It's another thing to actually 0:56:31.880 --> 0:56:33.319 promote it and make sure people can see it. 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:37.239 Which they could have honestly, And this was an independent film. 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:41.280 We made this independently. My team Message Pictures, Park Pictures 0:56:41.400 --> 0:56:45.520 joined us, SOB Productions also joined us. We were a 0:56:45.600 --> 0:56:50.840 very small but mighty scrappy team for very little money. 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:55.360 We also got some development funding, but the from Peacock, 0:56:55.480 --> 0:56:58.640 but they chose not to take the film ultimately, so 0:56:58.760 --> 0:57:03.040 we but you you know, small resources. But the Sundance 0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:08.879 Film Festival accepted the film and really give that platform. 0:57:09.040 --> 0:57:13.600 That was our first premiere. And after that Netflix made 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:16.680 us an offer. So Netflix took it to the next 0:57:16.760 --> 0:57:18.800 level again, a global platform. 0:57:19.120 --> 0:57:22.120 Look, my head is in two different places. Like one part, 0:57:22.160 --> 0:57:25.080 I want to talk about the decision to go without 0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:27.960 a narrator and to use all the bodycam footage. On 0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:29.320 the other hand, I do think we should spend a 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:31.920 few minutes on the story itself, sure, and so I 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:35.120 want to begin with there, which is what did you 0:57:35.520 --> 0:57:38.080 when did you become you know, how closely were you 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:42.520 following this story in real time in Marion County, Florida. 0:57:43.440 --> 0:57:45.720 You know, I hate to say it, when I watched this, 0:57:46.960 --> 0:57:50.960 it was a very you know, I knew a little 0:57:50.960 --> 0:57:52.640 something about the story itself, so I knew I was 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:58.280 going to end. But that community, that fight, I've seen that, 0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:03.160 it's a very familiar thing. What was unfamiliar was to 0:58:03.240 --> 0:58:06.880 see it chronicled, yeah, right in real time, and that's 0:58:06.920 --> 0:58:09.280 what made it, I think so powerful. But I am 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:12.120 curious what was your familiarity with the story at different 0:58:12.160 --> 0:58:13.840 points in time while it was unfolding. 0:58:14.240 --> 0:58:17.720 Sure, so there is a personal connection to this story 0:58:18.040 --> 0:58:21.400 because Ajica Owens was a family friend, so you were 0:58:21.440 --> 0:58:24.120 involved from the minute that had happened. 0:58:24.200 --> 0:58:25.440 Unfortunately, from the minute that you. 0:58:25.480 --> 0:58:29.000 Show you knew immediately you were brought in. Did you 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:32.600 know about what was happening in that neighborhood before. 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:33.200 She was killed? 0:58:33.400 --> 0:58:36.600 No, we didn't, and we myself and Mama say, we 0:58:36.760 --> 0:58:39.520 am talking about myself and my husband. 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:41.720 Who's also a producer on the film that come onto. 0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:46.120 And my teammate Message Pictures, Alisa Payne and Sam Pollard, 0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:50.880 you're my producing partners. We got a distress call though 0:58:51.280 --> 0:58:54.800 from my sister in law who was best friends with 0:58:54.920 --> 0:58:55.800 Ajaca Owens. 0:58:56.280 --> 0:58:58.040 And when I say sister in law, she's really my 0:58:58.160 --> 0:58:59.240 cousin in law. 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:03.240 But we culturally don't differentiate like she's We're very close. 0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:04.360 That's my sister in law. 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:08.880 I've got cousins, Yeah, exactly so. 0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:11.400 But just you know, in case anybody wants to, you know, 0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:14.400 wants to fact check it, right, cousin in law. But 0:59:14.480 --> 0:59:17.000 we got we got a call the night that had happened, 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:21.160 and we're immediately on the ground trying to support the 0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:25.040 family and help gathering the children and getting Achica's mother 0:59:25.080 --> 0:59:25.560 into town. 0:59:26.160 --> 0:59:28.320 And also we. 0:59:28.000 --> 0:59:30.640 Were very aware that the story needed to be in 0:59:30.680 --> 0:59:35.200 the media because without media attention, cases like Ajica's often get. 0:59:35.120 --> 0:59:35.960 Swept under the rung. 0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:38.840 I mean, there's so much gun violence, unfortunately in our 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:41.840 society that it's almost an everyday occurrence. 0:59:41.920 --> 0:59:43.720 There's another story of somebody getting. 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:47.200 Shot and neighbor dispute with it turning into a deadly 0:59:47.440 --> 0:59:51.680 gunshot is sadly almost it probably is a daily occurred. 0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:54.200 Daily occurrence, right, more or less. 0:59:54.240 --> 0:59:57.960 So, so we were because we work in media, our team, 0:59:58.200 --> 0:59:59.720 that's what we felt. 0:59:59.480 --> 1:00:01.040 We could do and how we could help. 1:00:01.560 --> 1:00:06.160 And Susan was not immediately arrested because of stanyar ground laws. 1:00:06.520 --> 1:00:08.920 They had to stand your ground investigation, and we have 1:00:09.120 --> 1:00:12.480 the precedent of the Trayvon Martin case that happened in Florida, 1:00:12.560 --> 1:00:14.440 So we were deeply concerned that there would be no 1:00:14.680 --> 1:00:19.440 justice for Ajica. And then about two months later, Susan 1:00:19.560 --> 1:00:22.680 was eventually arrested. About two months later, we received the 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:25.800 body camera footage from the family lawyers and who we 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:29.640 were still involved with the family and again still trying 1:00:29.640 --> 1:00:32.560 to support the case because we didn't know. Again, we 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:34.960 were worried it might languish, you know, it could take 1:00:35.080 --> 1:00:39.560 years for anything to happen. But the footage came to 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:41.920 us and they asked us to go through it. 1:00:42.040 --> 1:00:43.360 They were like, can you look through it? Is there 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:44.520 anything in here for the media? 1:00:45.080 --> 1:00:47.760 And it was about thirty hours of material and I 1:00:47.840 --> 1:00:51.200 was shocked. I'd never seen that much footage around a 1:00:51.240 --> 1:00:51.840 case before. 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:57.520 Can I just say, I'm I was oddly impressed with 1:00:57.720 --> 1:01:03.800 how much there was in How you know, I'm a 1:01:03.800 --> 1:01:05.680 cynic on this stuff. I assume all these guys are 1:01:05.680 --> 1:01:07.200 going to turn it off when the real you know, 1:01:07.480 --> 1:01:10.680 and they there was so much there. It felt real. 1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:12.640 It felt like I got a real sense of how 1:01:12.680 --> 1:01:16.280 Marion County Police officers handle these disputes. 1:01:16.720 --> 1:01:18.840 Yes, now one hundred percent, and they were there so 1:01:18.920 --> 1:01:22.320 often because Susan called so often. But I think what 1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:26.880 struck me is that you got to see in this 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:31.160 footage the community as they were before, and it was undeniable. 1:01:31.200 --> 1:01:35.080 You got to see this beautiful multi racial community living together, 1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:39.080 loving each other, acting like a big extended family, taking 1:01:39.080 --> 1:01:41.200 care of the kids, you know, And you got to 1:01:41.200 --> 1:01:45.800 see the kids playing outside, being precocious and funny. 1:01:45.960 --> 1:01:47.440 And you know, and loved. 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:52.160 And because there is so much gun violence, we are 1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:54.640 used to seeing the grieving family. 1:01:55.080 --> 1:01:55.760 We know the. 1:01:55.640 --> 1:01:58.280 Aftermath of what happens, but we never get to see 1:01:58.320 --> 1:02:02.640 the before me, the story of this community and what 1:02:02.720 --> 1:02:05.600 they had to go through and how one outlier who 1:02:05.640 --> 1:02:09.240 was emboldened by Stanley ground laws plus combined with our 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:13.600 access to guns, disrupted their whole world. 1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:19.360 What did you know? What when did you know you 1:02:19.400 --> 1:02:20.320 had a film? 1:02:20.720 --> 1:02:23.040 Sure? So, when when we saw the body camera. 1:02:22.800 --> 1:02:27.080 Footage, immediately like this is I can do something with that? No? 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:31.000 Because because what Because like I said, it was thirty hours, 1:02:31.040 --> 1:02:33.479 It came in a jumble, it came on a thumb 1:02:33.560 --> 1:02:39.200 drive and there were folders. But there's the cops unintentionally 1:02:39.360 --> 1:02:42.840 function like multi camera with the you know, with the footage, 1:02:42.880 --> 1:02:45.160 because sometimes there were two of them unseen. 1:02:45.880 --> 1:02:48.160 Sometimes there was a little it could be a little uh, 1:02:48.200 --> 1:02:51.280 it was a little love don't I don't want to 1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:53.960 say it, you know, sort of like wait what I mean? 1:02:54.000 --> 1:02:55.120 You know it's sort of dizzying. 1:02:55.200 --> 1:02:58.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But this is again the nature. 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:01.920 This is not production footage, right, they just just it's 1:03:02.000 --> 1:03:05.240 please evidence. But I spent about two weeks along with 1:03:05.320 --> 1:03:08.920 Nikon Kwan two again my producer and partner, stringing it 1:03:08.960 --> 1:03:11.240 into a timeline. I used to be an editor, so 1:03:11.400 --> 1:03:15.760 I pieced it together and synchronized all the footage and 1:03:15.800 --> 1:03:20.800 the sound, and also took time to figure out the chronology. 1:03:21.080 --> 1:03:23.280 And it was once we had the whole thing strung 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:26.200 out and we watched it down and we could understand 1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:32.120 the chronology and what happened, that's when I was like, Aha. 1:03:31.480 --> 1:03:34.040 The family. So one of the things I was curious 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:37.080 about is that the family attorney immediately asked for body 1:03:37.080 --> 1:03:40.240 cam footage for every incident that had ever taken place 1:03:40.560 --> 1:03:41.680 to differ in that neighborhood. 1:03:41.680 --> 1:03:44.480 Okay, I asked, of course, for the court case, that's 1:03:44.480 --> 1:03:47.400 what they would need, right, So they asked for everything, 1:03:47.440 --> 1:03:49.840 and what you see in the film is pretty much 1:03:49.880 --> 1:03:51.760 what we got, what the. 1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:54.080 Lawyers were given. 1:03:54.320 --> 1:03:57.560 There was also some ring whether it's some doorbell cameras 1:03:57.640 --> 1:03:58.760 or wing cameras as well. 1:03:58.840 --> 1:04:01.120 Right, I was part of it also because that was 1:04:01.160 --> 1:04:04.600 collected as evidence. But I think the thing that to 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:08.240 me that struck me was that I felt like the 1:04:08.280 --> 1:04:11.320 footage played like a horror film. It played to me 1:04:11.560 --> 1:04:13.800 I thought of films. I come from a scripted background. 1:04:13.840 --> 1:04:17.040 Originally I came up with Spike Lee and Sam Pollard. 1:04:16.680 --> 1:04:19.200 And actually it had a Jaws vibe to me, the 1:04:19.240 --> 1:04:22.280 original Jaws, right, which is the you know, the initial 1:04:22.760 --> 1:04:26.160 Steven Spielberg horror creator of that moment of where you 1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:29.400 don't see, you don't see the menace, but you know 1:04:29.520 --> 1:04:34.280 it's coming out there. And that's what I felt body 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.320 came for. You're just like I had. I just got 1:04:36.360 --> 1:04:40.000 the Jaws vibe in that sense, because you know it's 1:04:40.040 --> 1:04:42.400 building up, but you don't know when it's coming, but 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:43.200 you know it's coming. 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:45.720 Nobody has said Jaws before. I love that. 1:04:45.560 --> 1:04:49.960 The references for me were paranormal activity and you know, 1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:53.400 things that used and also the Blair Witch Project, like 1:04:53.480 --> 1:04:57.160 films that were made that was meant to be found 1:04:57.200 --> 1:05:01.560 footage or you know again CCTV footage, surveillance camera footage. 1:05:01.800 --> 1:05:05.680 So those were sort of my references, and I wanted 1:05:05.720 --> 1:05:10.000 to make something that was immersive, that would grip audiences 1:05:10.320 --> 1:05:13.760 and hold them. Oftentimes, when we make documentaries, particularly if 1:05:13.760 --> 1:05:17.720 they're social justice, sometimes people don't want to you know, 1:05:17.720 --> 1:05:20.160 they don't want to hear it, like or they're not interesting, 1:05:20.760 --> 1:05:21.040 you know. 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:24.960 I that was. Look, I had my wife and I 1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:26.960 was saying, I'm gonna watch this from an interview. She's like, 1:05:27.120 --> 1:05:30.480 I don't know, like you know, I know this story. 1:05:30.520 --> 1:05:36.360 I don't know right, like because you're right. And that's 1:05:36.360 --> 1:05:37.960 why I'm like, no, people, you need to see this. 1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:40.160 You need to see it because it's a groundmaking way 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:43.600 to make a movie. Number one. So there's a technical 1:05:43.640 --> 1:05:47.040 aspect of this that's I mean, I'm not a voter, 1:05:47.160 --> 1:05:49.160 but if I were to me, this is why to me, 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:52.959 it's an e're the easy winner simply because it's both 1:05:52.960 --> 1:05:56.680 a technical You've done something new and interesting and different 1:05:57.360 --> 1:06:01.240 in a basically because we now have all this stuff 1:06:01.600 --> 1:06:04.000 we didn't. You know, you couldn't have made this with 1:06:04.320 --> 1:06:08.800 Trayvon Martin it didn't exist, but one of the other no, no, no, no, 1:06:08.880 --> 1:06:11.800 and so, and then there's the powerful story itself that 1:06:11.880 --> 1:06:17.480 you tell where you don't have to you're not trying, 1:06:18.360 --> 1:06:21.000 You're you're you're helping people get to a place, but 1:06:21.080 --> 1:06:24.720 you're not preaching. You're not telling people what should be, 1:06:24.880 --> 1:06:28.560 what to think, You're just showing. You're letting us decide 1:06:28.600 --> 1:06:30.400 what should be. And you're like, that wasn't right. 1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:33.000 Thank you for that. Now we trust our audience. I 1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:34.200 think that was a big part of it. 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:35.880 We were are belief that we could live in this 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:39.440 body camera footage and the you know, the police evidence footage. 1:06:39.560 --> 1:06:40.760 And there was a couple of thoughts. 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:42.480 One was that we didn't want to go back and 1:06:42.520 --> 1:06:46.960 retraumatize the community by making them relive it again interviewing them. 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:50.960 They've they'd already been interviewed by detectives, they'd lived it, like, 1:06:51.200 --> 1:06:54.280 I didn't want to burden them with that. 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:57.200 Then the the other part of it is we felt 1:06:57.200 --> 1:07:00.520 the body camera footage was really undeniable and right now 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:02.680 we live in a time where everything the media does 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:07.440 is questioned, and with this footage, there was no film 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:10.240 crew on the ground, right there was we were not 1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:15.640 there directing anything. So again, because it is police evidence, 1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:20.040 you see things exactly as they happened, no one, there 1:07:20.120 --> 1:07:24.200 was no outside journalist influencing, So so I think that 1:07:24.520 --> 1:07:28.320 makes it undeniable to audiences. And also you can see 1:07:28.320 --> 1:07:33.720 in this footage again how this community was oftentimes after 1:07:35.640 --> 1:07:39.080 after people of color in particular are victimized after a 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:43.080 crime happens to us, we are often criminalized, and our 1:07:43.160 --> 1:07:46.200 children are adultified. And we felt in the footage again 1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:49.040 the police did not mean to capture this, but they 1:07:49.040 --> 1:07:53.120 did that. Again, this community, this incredible community, and this 1:07:53.480 --> 1:07:55.400 like you have the mother who says, you know, oh, 1:07:55.440 --> 1:07:57.720 these kids, they're all mine, and the father comes out 1:07:57.760 --> 1:07:59.200 and is like, I look out for these kids like 1:07:59.240 --> 1:08:01.880 they're my own. You see in footage, even footage that 1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:05.720 Susan shot, the adults playing football with the kids like 1:08:05.840 --> 1:08:09.680 it was and the kids are outside having like you know, 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:12.360 healthy connected fun. 1:08:12.640 --> 1:08:16.200 And I think what all of our political leaders say, hey, 1:08:16.240 --> 1:08:18.040 kids need to be outside more, not in front of 1:08:18.080 --> 1:08:21.040 their screens. Right, these kids were outside. 1:08:20.600 --> 1:08:23.519 They were outside, and I think and also you saw 1:08:23.560 --> 1:08:28.040 a community of upstanders like Susan, the two neighbors, and 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:31.160 it wasn't. It's interesting because even though it is about race, 1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:33.000 and Susan tried to weaponize race. 1:08:33.479 --> 1:08:35.000 You know, you see the two. 1:08:34.800 --> 1:08:37.799 Neighbors that AA that lived on either side of Ogica 1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:40.720 or white women and were complete upstanders. 1:08:41.000 --> 1:08:43.000 What I saw it as is this is why it's 1:08:43.000 --> 1:08:45.000 a familiar community to me. In Florida. There are a 1:08:45.080 --> 1:08:48.000 lot of this is just a working class middle sort 1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:50.960 of what I working class, you know, strivers is what 1:08:51.000 --> 1:08:54.440 I would call it though, right, working crass driver community 1:08:54.760 --> 1:08:56.960 who like don't want to live in an apartment complex 1:08:57.000 --> 1:08:59.720 with their kids, want their kids to have more of 1:08:59.760 --> 1:09:02.040 a of a of a of a you know, sort 1:09:02.080 --> 1:09:05.960 of that whatever whatever, the idealized version of growing up 1:09:06.600 --> 1:09:09.280 in a neighborhood and all that stuff and there, and 1:09:09.360 --> 1:09:11.320 you know, these communities are all over Florida. It's sort 1:09:11.320 --> 1:09:15.280 of what makes Florida an attractive melting pot to many 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:17.000 people and why they move. And it's affordable. 1:09:17.280 --> 1:09:20.000 It's the best of us. It's really that's the American dream. 1:09:20.080 --> 1:09:22.240 It's the best of us, right, like a place where 1:09:22.720 --> 1:09:26.080 and with that strong social network. I think Susan, on 1:09:26.120 --> 1:09:29.000 the other hand, is sort of represents a microcosm of 1:09:29.040 --> 1:09:31.839 all the bills that are plaguing our society. 1:09:31.920 --> 1:09:33.120 She kind of holds a mirror up. 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:44.720 Two movies jumped out at me with her, because there 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:47.760 been attempts to sort of portray that character, is what 1:09:47.760 --> 1:09:49.879 I would call it. Right, We know this person exists, 1:09:50.240 --> 1:09:52.200 this person lived in my neighborhood. We all had a 1:09:52.200 --> 1:09:54.720 person like this, right, and you don't quite know what 1:09:54.760 --> 1:09:57.639 they were. Right. You had the Clint Eastwood movie where 1:09:57.720 --> 1:10:01.280 he's the old man torn out Bohite Tornado or something 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:08.599 like that, where grand grands grand Tino. That's right, And 1:10:08.640 --> 1:10:11.800 then I was thinking of the that Michael Douglas movie 1:10:11.840 --> 1:10:14.679 right falling Down whatever, you know, the whole white grievance, 1:10:14.720 --> 1:10:18.479 white rage. Right. She she felt like a very familiar character, 1:10:19.320 --> 1:10:22.719 right that we'd seen portrayed. But here was here here, 1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:26.759 I think there's there's this assumption that maybe these folks 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:30.280 no longer exist. No, well, she very very much she 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:33.000 must exist. I'm curious, did you want to what did you? 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:37.840 I was? I wanted to know more of like how 1:10:37.880 --> 1:10:42.360 did she become so broken? She's broken? There's no doubt 1:10:42.479 --> 1:10:45.360 she's broken. We don't know what's it. 1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:46.360 We don't know this. 1:10:47.560 --> 1:10:51.360 She moved into the neighborhood two years before everything happened, 1:10:51.600 --> 1:10:54.680 and we don't have much of her backstory, you know, 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:57.320 nor did we want to speculate on it. 1:10:57.439 --> 1:11:00.519 No, I get that too, but it's clear she some 1:11:00.520 --> 1:11:05.000 somebody something something she's broken, and you know, I don't 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:07.879 know who knows when it happened, right, might have happened 1:11:08.720 --> 1:11:09.920 years ago or two years ago. 1:11:10.000 --> 1:11:12.520 You might just be racist though until. 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:14.160 Well, and that's the thing. She got broken early. Then, 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:17.400 you know, I always say you, you know you have 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:18.400 to be raised a racist? 1:11:18.720 --> 1:11:19.560 Uh huh. 1:11:19.560 --> 1:11:22.360 I do believe that. I don't think, because kids are 1:11:22.360 --> 1:11:24.360 not racist unless they're caught it now. 1:11:24.400 --> 1:11:27.240 And I appreciate you thinking of that as broken, because yeah, 1:11:27.280 --> 1:11:31.439 it should be thought of that way. But I think 1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:34.479 I was the one thing I wanted to say, though, 1:11:34.479 --> 1:11:38.000 is that she also seemed to be someone who absorbed 1:11:38.160 --> 1:11:41.080 a lot of the rhetoric that is coming from the 1:11:41.120 --> 1:11:44.840 top down today in our country, which is manufactured fear, 1:11:45.880 --> 1:11:50.799 weaponized racism again, and that those kind of things combined 1:11:50.840 --> 1:11:52.320 with her access to weapons. 1:11:52.640 --> 1:11:54.960 PA, well, think about those law What was this the 1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:59.439 incident in Saint Louis. Absolutely it was about three years 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:02.920 ago with a guide shot and then was the kid 1:12:02.920 --> 1:12:04.600 who went to the wrong door. It was going to 1:12:04.600 --> 1:12:05.639 go happen more. 1:12:06.080 --> 1:12:08.120 It happened recently there was a woman who was supposed 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:09.880 to clean someone's house and came to the door and 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:13.320 the man shutter the wrong house. Like it is, this idea, 1:12:13.400 --> 1:12:18.040 but the manufactured fear is a tool to divide us, right, 1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:21.639 and when we fear our neighbors, when we like again, 1:12:21.760 --> 1:12:24.320 then we're okay with them being kidnapped and put in 1:12:24.400 --> 1:12:29.200 detention centers. Right, Like, it's used the idea, and it 1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:32.400 allows an authoritarian government to say things like, noah, we'll 1:12:32.439 --> 1:12:34.439 protect you. We just need to get rid of these 1:12:34.439 --> 1:12:38.759 people over here. So she seemed to be a symptom 1:12:38.920 --> 1:12:40.800 of all those societal ills. 1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.040 And that is why, in some ways I wanted to 1:12:43.080 --> 1:12:45.599 know more, Like is she just sitting on her lounge 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:50.479 chair watching one feed of stuff? And you know, is 1:12:50.520 --> 1:12:54.519 her information ecosystem very blind or oriented? Right? You know? 1:12:54.760 --> 1:12:57.519 But it struck me she never had anybody with her. 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:02.040 Yeah, then at once, now when she was moving out 1:13:02.040 --> 1:13:04.320 of the house, that was her sister. 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:06.280 There was a woman there who was her sister. 1:13:06.360 --> 1:13:08.559 But other than that, that was that we didn't see 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:12.479 much of anybody near her. But what's interesting, like I said, 1:13:12.560 --> 1:13:14.320 is there were other older women. 1:13:14.439 --> 1:13:16.800 There was another woman who was her neighbor who appears 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:17.679 in that. 1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:22.559 Same scene, who is an older woman who similarly lives 1:13:22.560 --> 1:13:25.519 in that neighborhood. But she was the only one. That 1:13:25.680 --> 1:13:29.000 is what is so interesting. She is the only one 1:13:29.000 --> 1:13:30.559 who ever complained. 1:13:30.600 --> 1:13:34.080 Right, which tells you, you know, says more about. 1:13:33.920 --> 1:13:35.960 Her than anything else, and anything else. 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:42.559 You know, the try to me all, you know, your 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:46.160 documentary sort of makes the case that in some ways 1:13:48.280 --> 1:13:52.599 this was a form of premeditation. Now we can debate that. 1:13:52.760 --> 1:13:54.479 I get that that there's the letter of the law 1:13:54.479 --> 1:14:00.400 and premeditation, but this was not manslaugh. I think we 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:04.679 all know that. And yet I understand that the state 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:06.519 of Florida passed a law that tied the hands of 1:14:06.520 --> 1:14:07.560 those prosecutors. 1:14:07.880 --> 1:14:11.000 Yeah, but I think also I will say this, I 1:14:11.040 --> 1:14:14.599 think the prosecution, from what happened in the Trayvon Martin 1:14:14.640 --> 1:14:18.559 case and others, I think they went for the lowest 1:14:18.560 --> 1:14:19.639 hanging fruit as. 1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:21.080 Well, because I wanted a conviction. 1:14:21.439 --> 1:14:24.160 They wanted a conviction, and with Trayvon Martin, George the 1:14:24.240 --> 1:14:27.880 Merman walked in the charge's murder, so I think with 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:32.639 manslaughter and Florida, manslaughter carries up to forty years, sorry, 1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:36.120 thirty years. Manslaughter carries thirty years. So I felt, I 1:14:36.200 --> 1:14:39.360 feel that they thought they could get a conviction with 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:41.160 manslaughter and. 1:14:41.439 --> 1:14:45.439 That she would serve. She would still end up with a. 1:14:45.400 --> 1:14:50.680 Long sentence effectively life. Effectively, she was going to be 1:14:50.680 --> 1:14:51.400 incarcerated for. 1:14:51.560 --> 1:14:55.200 Right yeah, for a sixty years, right yeah, thirty. 1:14:55.000 --> 1:14:56.960 You know, as she ended up with twenty five. 1:14:57.360 --> 1:15:00.240 She had not committed any other violent crime before, so 1:15:00.400 --> 1:15:03.040 I think so, but the judge gave her. 1:15:02.920 --> 1:15:05.320 The maximum that he could and that was twenty five. 1:15:05.720 --> 1:15:09.000 So she will be if you know again, where she 1:15:09.080 --> 1:15:11.160 just served the entire sentence, she would be eighty five 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:12.080 once she gets out. 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:19.519 So so let's say Governor DeSantis watches this film. What 1:15:19.560 --> 1:15:20.559 do you hope he takes away. 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:24.639 I hope he takes away the damage laws that Standard 1:15:24.720 --> 1:15:28.320 Ground do to communities. I hope he takes away the 1:15:28.400 --> 1:15:33.240 fact that we need gun control, that in Florida you 1:15:33.240 --> 1:15:34.719 can buy a gun like you can buy. 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:36.240 A toaster or a microwave. 1:15:36.560 --> 1:15:38.320 And there's a point you see in the film where 1:15:38.360 --> 1:15:43.439 Susan is clearly behaving erratically, and there should have been 1:15:43.479 --> 1:15:46.599 a question around her buying a gun. I also hope 1:15:47.280 --> 1:15:53.759 it that folks take away DeSantis included how policing works 1:15:54.000 --> 1:15:58.839 and how they could have and should have caught Susan, 1:15:59.720 --> 1:16:02.840 you know, and seeing her as a threat earlier on 1:16:03.280 --> 1:16:05.360 instead of just treating her like a nuisance. But I 1:16:05.400 --> 1:16:08.840 think because they the police again were not equipped to 1:16:08.880 --> 1:16:10.840 handle it. But they also brought there, you know, they 1:16:10.920 --> 1:16:12.920 brought their own biases to the scene, and she was 1:16:12.960 --> 1:16:14.080 able to weaponize them. 1:16:14.479 --> 1:16:16.799 Well, it's interesting with them, you know. It was interesting 1:16:16.840 --> 1:16:19.720 to hear how the officers saying, look, I'm going to 1:16:19.720 --> 1:16:22.400 believe you, and I'm going to believe them. I remember 1:16:22.400 --> 1:16:24.960 that was like it stuck out at me, and it's 1:16:25.000 --> 1:16:30.200 like it it was a reminder of why it's important 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:32.960 for all of this to be on tape. Yes, all right, 1:16:33.040 --> 1:16:35.880 and I and again I go back. You and I 1:16:35.920 --> 1:16:38.760 both know that if this happens ten years ago, there's 1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:40.719 every chance in the world she's never charged. 1:16:40.880 --> 1:16:43.400 Oh and if there was no footage, I don't know 1:16:43.479 --> 1:16:44.519 that she would be charged. 1:16:44.560 --> 1:16:47.400 If you didn't see her erratic, you know, her behavior, 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:49.680 calling the cops again and again and again, and if 1:16:49.720 --> 1:16:53.320 you didn't hear the community side of the story, right this, Yeah, 1:16:53.400 --> 1:16:56.360 she could have walked, And this is we honestly we 1:16:56.640 --> 1:16:59.640 didn't until the very end. We had that in our 1:16:59.680 --> 1:17:02.639 hearts that like we were we were like, she's probably 1:17:02.640 --> 1:17:05.120 going to get off, Like it's no way, it's not possible. 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:08.439 This is the story of the twentieth century. In these incidents, 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:12.880 they all walk, it felt like almost all the time. Yeah, 1:17:12.960 --> 1:17:15.519 you know, this is why you know, I sit here 1:17:15.520 --> 1:17:18.720 and it's like it's an imperfect body camera footage is 1:17:18.760 --> 1:17:22.000 imperfect on all those things, but it's better. 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:26.880 And it's also incredibly relevant today when you think about 1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:29.040 what's happening in Minnesota, when we were living in a 1:17:29.080 --> 1:17:32.519 time where we have a government who will distort the 1:17:32.600 --> 1:17:37.160 truth at any given moment freely, has no no moral. 1:17:36.880 --> 1:17:39.920 Compass around doing that. You know, with the murders that 1:17:39.920 --> 1:17:43.160 have happened in Minnesota, where I says murdered a number 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:44.280 of people is. 1:17:44.280 --> 1:17:47.040 Exact that we're debating whether or not they should have 1:17:47.080 --> 1:17:50.639 body cameras I know, and they're saying, well, we'll put 1:17:50.640 --> 1:17:54.040 them on, but we want to be able to could no, no, no, Yeah, 1:17:54.200 --> 1:17:56.760 we're putting that in your hands of deciding when those 1:17:56.760 --> 1:17:58.040 cameras go on and off, you. 1:17:58.040 --> 1:17:58.880 Need it at all. 1:17:58.880 --> 1:18:01.639 It should be on it all time because like I said, 1:18:01.720 --> 1:18:06.519 there there is clearly audacity, you know, of the powers 1:18:06.560 --> 1:18:08.920 that be. They like again, they feel they can distort 1:18:08.960 --> 1:18:12.040 the truth at any given moment to their advantage. 1:18:12.439 --> 1:18:14.960 And I think with and body camera is still only 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:17.120 in eight states, it's only required in eight states that 1:18:17.200 --> 1:18:19.680 law enforcement wear it, And it could not be more 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:21.800 critical right now. And it's it is a double edged 1:18:21.840 --> 1:18:25.760 sword for communities of color because it's it's also a 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:27.120 tool of surveillance, you know. 1:18:27.320 --> 1:18:31.040 And no, look, I think about this a lot, you 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:34.120 know when it comes to privacy, but you and iron 1:18:35.040 --> 1:18:38.800 I fear that people younger than us have like, don't 1:18:40.160 --> 1:18:41.480 don't view it as surveillance. 1:18:41.800 --> 1:18:44.519 It's surveillance, yeah, and it absolutely is. So it's a 1:18:44.520 --> 1:18:47.680 double edged sword, particularly for vulnerable, the most vulnerable. But 1:18:47.760 --> 1:18:51.360 I think right now, the particularly with the case of 1:18:51.439 --> 1:18:53.920 Ice and what is happening and with who we have 1:18:54.080 --> 1:18:57.800 in power, it is absolutely needed all law enforcement and 1:18:57.840 --> 1:19:00.000 government agents should be required to wear it. 1:19:00.120 --> 1:19:06.559 Opinion. A few sort of technical things about doing the film. 1:19:06.880 --> 1:19:09.479 Every once in a while you would have body camera 1:19:09.560 --> 1:19:13.639 audio and then it would just did you do sort 1:19:13.640 --> 1:19:19.720 of just sort of almost file footage of the neighborhood 1:19:19.760 --> 1:19:21.880 once or something? Yes, so we did. 1:19:22.080 --> 1:19:24.880 There was we did shoot bee role of the neighborhood. 1:19:24.920 --> 1:19:27.480 So some of the things we shot, we shot vigils, 1:19:27.960 --> 1:19:31.320 we shot protests, the funeral, and we shot bee role 1:19:31.400 --> 1:19:34.280 of the neighborhood. And some of that was for we 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:38.920 shot originally as to give to media to share with 1:19:39.040 --> 1:19:43.040 news because we wanted use organizations to to to talk 1:19:43.080 --> 1:19:44.160 about what was happening. 1:19:44.520 --> 1:19:45.360 And then some of it. 1:19:45.360 --> 1:19:49.040 We shot afterwards just as part of the film so 1:19:49.080 --> 1:19:54.639 that we could again sort of create texture and. 1:19:54.760 --> 1:19:57.120 Also as people could see what the neighborhood looked like. 1:19:57.640 --> 1:19:59.880 What was the Was it a struggle to get everybody 1:20:00.080 --> 1:20:02.679 greed to allow their likeness to be used. 1:20:02.920 --> 1:20:05.960 No, What's so interesting is that that community was really 1:20:06.040 --> 1:20:09.200 like a family. We the body camera footage, we had 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:12.760 to sort of work in reverse and try and find people. 1:20:12.800 --> 1:20:15.000 I did like look at them and get them identified 1:20:15.040 --> 1:20:18.200 and then find them at some of the people. It's 1:20:18.200 --> 1:20:21.040 interesting some people came to us redacted by the police, 1:20:21.040 --> 1:20:22.639 Like some of the footage the police had. 1:20:22.520 --> 1:20:25.840 Already we had already redacted. It interesting why would they. 1:20:26.200 --> 1:20:28.439 I think there was us to redact all of it. 1:20:29.439 --> 1:20:33.120 I see it didn't happen, so we so then, but 1:20:33.160 --> 1:20:36.360 if there were people that we could not find, particularly children, 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:37.200 we would. 1:20:37.120 --> 1:20:40.160 Just redacted it. We redacted it. So that's so that 1:20:40.760 --> 1:20:43.599 any of the blurred faces were not people that said, no, 1:20:43.720 --> 1:20:45.720 you can't do this. It was more of the other way. 1:20:46.040 --> 1:20:48.240 It was more it was more people we couldn't find. 1:20:48.360 --> 1:20:50.519 But there were one or two people who were worried 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:52.720 about it and we wanted to We were respectful of them, 1:20:52.760 --> 1:20:54.800 of course. I think though for the most part, the 1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:58.320 community stood behind what we were doing. Like they really 1:20:58.360 --> 1:21:02.240 loved each other and they we actually showed the film 1:21:02.280 --> 1:21:05.519 to them before it aired on Netflix, and it was 1:21:05.640 --> 1:21:07.960 very hard. They had a very visceral reaction to it, 1:21:08.040 --> 1:21:11.559 but they afterwards they they kind of talked through it 1:21:11.920 --> 1:21:15.000 and with each other and you know, had a lot 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:17.760 of memories. I think it was I think ultimately they 1:21:17.800 --> 1:21:20.400 said it was therapeutic and that they wanted it out 1:21:20.400 --> 1:21:22.639 in the world because they understood what we were doing, 1:21:22.640 --> 1:21:24.640 and they said no other community should have to go 1:21:24.720 --> 1:21:27.920 through that. There is only one family left on that block. 1:21:28.960 --> 1:21:30.320 Everyone else has left. 1:21:30.439 --> 1:21:32.439 They left, They moved. 1:21:33.640 --> 1:21:35.640 How did you stay? And that's how So it's like 1:21:35.680 --> 1:21:36.599 the ripple effect. 1:21:36.760 --> 1:21:37.479 What's your kids? 1:21:37.840 --> 1:21:39.920 Yeah, the ripple effect is enormous. 1:21:40.040 --> 1:21:43.920 And that so that beautiful communal again community where kids 1:21:43.920 --> 1:21:47.240 came from all the neighboring streets to play on that 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:49.960 one block decimated. 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:52.320 Because they had the empty grass field. Every neighborhood has 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:54.519 that one and it yes, there said, but so you're 1:21:54.560 --> 1:21:56.160 not sure. I don't know who owned it. 1:21:56.280 --> 1:21:59.320 Actually it belonged to the neighbor. It belonged to Susan's 1:21:59.320 --> 1:22:00.760 neighbor who allowed them to. 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:02.439 Play there, who had said yes. 1:22:04.800 --> 1:22:07.120 So it was often out there with them like it was. 1:22:08.040 --> 1:22:10.040 It was they had permission to be there. 1:22:10.479 --> 1:22:15.360 So, you know, I just think about you know, I 1:22:15.360 --> 1:22:20.960 I often believe that it was a It was helpful 1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:22.800 that I grew up in Miami. When I grew up 1:22:22.800 --> 1:22:24.360 in Miami. I grew up in Miami in the in 1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:27.719 the seventies and eighties, and we went through three race 1:22:28.960 --> 1:22:34.000 riots in the eighties, all of which might not have 1:22:34.000 --> 1:22:37.760 happened if there had been body camera footage. You know, 1:22:37.800 --> 1:22:41.800 I was just thinking about just that aspect, like, you know, 1:22:42.080 --> 1:22:46.280 we ripped. Now it's Miami a beautiful place today in 1:22:46.360 --> 1:22:49.080 some ways because of the pain we all had to 1:22:49.080 --> 1:22:50.880 go through in the eighties. I think there is there. 1:22:50.960 --> 1:22:53.479 You could make a case that in some ways it is. 1:22:53.720 --> 1:22:57.479 But I think about all this sort of last decade 1:22:57.520 --> 1:23:00.800 that we had and how many and the destruction of 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:03.680 a coup of these communities, Liberty City in particular, and 1:23:04.640 --> 1:23:06.640 and how it could have been avoided. Yeah, you know, 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:11.840 and so easily. Now, I mean, you know, I mean, 1:23:12.040 --> 1:23:14.680 so that's what makes your film both there was like 1:23:14.720 --> 1:23:18.479 a hopefulness to it, like look, this, this is this 1:23:18.520 --> 1:23:20.600 is why we need body camera footage. We get a 1:23:20.640 --> 1:23:23.559 fuller picture, you get the better story. You know who 1:23:23.600 --> 1:23:28.000 the guilty party is. There's no question who's the instigator. 1:23:28.080 --> 1:23:31.320 There's no question. This isn't it he said, He said, 1:23:31.360 --> 1:23:34.160 like Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman in that business, you know. 1:23:36.360 --> 1:23:39.599 But it hasn't. It doesn't eradicate racism. 1:23:39.120 --> 1:23:41.040 No, no, unfortunately it doesn't. 1:23:41.080 --> 1:23:45.439 But I think they the hope is is that it 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:48.800 might the film for us in some ways, that it 1:23:48.920 --> 1:23:52.000 serves as a deterrence. And again, because of the outcome 1:23:52.040 --> 1:23:54.559 at the end of the trial, we're like, maybe people 1:23:54.640 --> 1:23:59.160 will think twice about, you know, trying to trying to 1:23:59.280 --> 1:24:02.280 pervert the law, which is already a problem in and 1:24:02.320 --> 1:24:05.760 of itself, but pervert stand your ground laws and use 1:24:05.840 --> 1:24:09.519 them claim self defense when you're actually committing a crime. 1:24:10.120 --> 1:24:11.599 And that is the. 1:24:11.600 --> 1:24:15.679 Hope and again, and the ultimate hope is to have 1:24:15.760 --> 1:24:19.920 this law eradicated state by state and particlarly because of 1:24:19.960 --> 1:24:20.639 the danger as. 1:24:20.560 --> 1:24:27.599 Opposes your career. You started working in scripted film with 1:24:27.640 --> 1:24:33.280 Spike Lee, and he is he had spent a lot 1:24:33.280 --> 1:24:38.120 of time doing scripted social justice messaging, right, you know, 1:24:38.560 --> 1:24:43.439 and what do you think is the more effective way 1:24:43.439 --> 1:24:45.840 to get a message across? When is a documentary better 1:24:45.920 --> 1:24:53.000 than better than scripted? And and is it you said 1:24:53.000 --> 1:24:55.720 something earlier that sort of hit me in this day 1:24:55.760 --> 1:24:57.479 and age when we're not sure what to believe. You know, 1:24:57.520 --> 1:25:00.000 in some ways the body camera footage is the most 1:25:00.160 --> 1:25:05.120 believable material you could come up with. That tells me 1:25:05.160 --> 1:25:09.200 that maybe the better way to to to to tell 1:25:09.240 --> 1:25:14.120 a story is with is with is with real footage 1:25:14.240 --> 1:25:16.840 rather than scripted you know, in manufactured book. 1:25:17.040 --> 1:25:19.920 I think they both I love both mediums and I 1:25:19.960 --> 1:25:22.200 think they both absolutely have their place. 1:25:22.800 --> 1:25:23.960 I think if you have. 1:25:23.840 --> 1:25:27.040 The material to make a really compelling documentary. Why not, 1:25:27.280 --> 1:25:31.360 particularly if you're telling a true story, because I think 1:25:31.400 --> 1:25:34.639 people connect connecting to the fact that this is someone's 1:25:34.680 --> 1:25:38.560 actual life. It impacts them differently, whereas if it's actors 1:25:38.680 --> 1:25:42.240 or people. You know. Again, I love scripted was where 1:25:42.280 --> 1:25:44.920 I started, and so and I love it so much. 1:25:45.000 --> 1:25:47.920 But if you have the means to tell the story 1:25:48.000 --> 1:25:51.960 for real, you know, then why not why not do that? 1:25:52.120 --> 1:25:53.240 You know? And I think. 1:25:54.600 --> 1:25:57.439 I think that truth is often stranger than fiction, you know, 1:25:57.520 --> 1:26:00.000 Like I the this film to me is a stuff 1:26:00.200 --> 1:26:02.680 have like you said, of a community of human behavior, 1:26:02.880 --> 1:26:06.840 of policaying, like it has so many layers and yeah, 1:26:06.960 --> 1:26:09.759 and it's real, right it is. It's this is stuff 1:26:09.760 --> 1:26:12.840 that actually unfolded. Uh So I think that makes it 1:26:12.880 --> 1:26:17.080 really powerful. But like like I said, I love both. 1:26:17.240 --> 1:26:20.200 I love both, and so I'm always happy to see, 1:26:20.479 --> 1:26:24.440 you know again, stories be told in multiple ways as. 1:26:24.200 --> 1:26:25.560 Creatively as possible. 1:26:25.800 --> 1:26:28.639 I think if it's really up to the vision of 1:26:28.680 --> 1:26:31.320 the team and the director to decide. 1:26:31.200 --> 1:26:32.800 Well, you know, it's funny. I think you set a 1:26:32.800 --> 1:26:37.280 bar here that I wonder for yourself, is it is 1:26:37.280 --> 1:26:38.439 it going to be? If you want to do a 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:41.240 documentary about another topic and you don't have enough footage? 1:26:41.240 --> 1:26:43.479 Are you going to say, oh, geez, you know, I 1:26:43.479 --> 1:26:44.800 don't know. If I don't, I don't want to go 1:26:44.880 --> 1:26:46.759 back to the talking head. 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:51.400 I might need to tap out. I feel like, I. 1:26:51.360 --> 1:26:53.439 Mean, I mean in some ways, right, You're like, well, 1:26:53.560 --> 1:26:56.920 this is I mean, there's I don't it's not. Who 1:26:56.960 --> 1:27:00.280 knows how often you can just get that, yeah, to 1:27:00.360 --> 1:27:01.160 tell a story. 1:27:01.439 --> 1:27:04.439 Yeah. No, it is a rare, tragic confluence of things 1:27:04.479 --> 1:27:05.639 that led to this film. 1:27:06.160 --> 1:27:10.640 But I you know, I kind of believe that, and 1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:14.639 this is interesting. I'm usually not a person who thinks 1:27:14.720 --> 1:27:17.120 like this, but I sort of feel like this film. 1:27:18.520 --> 1:27:21.479 There's a story about Ajica. Her mother always tells about 1:27:21.479 --> 1:27:22.240 how she was this. 1:27:22.520 --> 1:27:26.160 Ojika was a really vibrant, funny, bright person who had 1:27:26.160 --> 1:27:28.519 a lot of big dreams. She was young, you know, 1:27:28.600 --> 1:27:31.080 she was in her thirties, and she wanted better for 1:27:31.120 --> 1:27:33.439 herself and her family. And she used to talk to 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:34.639 her and call her mom every day. 1:27:34.640 --> 1:27:37.400 They were very close and they'd talk about her plans. 1:27:37.400 --> 1:27:39.240 She wanted to be an entrepreneur. She was going to 1:27:39.600 --> 1:27:42.120 you know, be world famous, and her mother would laugh 1:27:42.120 --> 1:27:44.640 at her sometimes, like moms do you know, just like 1:27:45.080 --> 1:27:49.479 because of her ideas and you know, just whatever. And 1:27:49.800 --> 1:27:51.600 she would say to her mom and was one of 1:27:51.600 --> 1:27:53.800 the last things she said to her, and she would say, wait, 1:27:53.880 --> 1:27:54.400 you know you just. 1:27:54.400 --> 1:27:56.400 Wait, you laugh. But one day the whole world's going 1:27:56.479 --> 1:27:57.080 to know my name. 1:27:58.240 --> 1:28:01.520 So for us, we're left with that in her absence, 1:28:01.720 --> 1:28:05.760 and I kind of feel like she's a part of 1:28:05.760 --> 1:28:09.080 this somehow. She wanted the world to know her name, 1:28:09.160 --> 1:28:13.439 obviously never in this way, but that's become it's now 1:28:13.479 --> 1:28:16.559 on us to make that happen and to try to 1:28:16.600 --> 1:28:19.760 do more with her legacy and to make change in 1:28:19.800 --> 1:28:20.200 her name. 1:28:21.000 --> 1:28:26.200 So yeah, I think this film it has so much more. 1:28:26.640 --> 1:28:29.120 Every film is so important, but this film, in a way, 1:28:29.160 --> 1:28:31.040 there's a bit more weight on. 1:28:33.000 --> 1:28:35.320 On how what we do with it and the impact. 1:28:36.080 --> 1:28:37.840 How are her kids like it? 1:28:38.120 --> 1:28:42.120 It's I think it's up and down that for children. 1:28:42.320 --> 1:28:46.439 Children are both incredibly resilient but also fragile and are 1:28:46.479 --> 1:28:49.679 not I mean and this is this would devastate anyone. 1:28:49.840 --> 1:28:54.679 So I think they are. They are loved, They're deeply loved. 1:28:54.720 --> 1:28:57.080 The one incredible thing too, that we were able to do, 1:28:57.120 --> 1:29:00.680 which was part of my dream, was with this film. 1:29:01.160 --> 1:29:03.560 I had hoped that if we sold it then we 1:29:03.600 --> 1:29:05.400 could give the money to the family, because we had 1:29:05.439 --> 1:29:07.639 nothing to offer them. Otherwise, we didn't have any money, 1:29:08.000 --> 1:29:12.679 you know, we're just filmmakers. But the sale to Netflix 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:15.559 that happened out of Sundown's allowed us to give the 1:29:15.600 --> 1:29:18.519 majority of the money to the grandmother and to the 1:29:18.560 --> 1:29:22.280 family so they could again these kids, children can have security, 1:29:22.680 --> 1:29:25.680 so they have that they are loved and taken care of. 1:29:25.720 --> 1:29:30.280 But there's struggle. There's emotional struggle, which will probably again, 1:29:30.360 --> 1:29:31.479 it's going to take many. 1:29:31.400 --> 1:29:32.080 Years to hear. 1:29:42.720 --> 1:29:43.880 I don't know if you ever get over it. 1:29:44.479 --> 1:29:47.479 Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, I think that's right. That 1:29:47.600 --> 1:29:49.559 kind of loss and that kind of trauma, you. 1:29:50.720 --> 1:29:55.240 Build resources and you build strength to work around it. 1:29:55.680 --> 1:29:58.160 I mean, you know, I'm haunted just talking about it 1:29:58.200 --> 1:30:01.599 at the moment by her son, at the moment she's 1:30:01.680 --> 1:30:04.559 shot and he's just gasping for air. 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:05.479 Yeah. 1:30:05.680 --> 1:30:08.960 No, it's it is to see children, and it's interesting 1:30:09.000 --> 1:30:13.000 that grief. We've had many conversations about it because that grief, 1:30:13.520 --> 1:30:16.519 watching the children learn that their mother is not coming 1:30:16.560 --> 1:30:21.160 home is the most challenging thing I think. 1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:24.040 And that was on body camera footage that moment with their. 1:30:23.920 --> 1:30:26.560 Father, just because the police were around them. 1:30:26.280 --> 1:30:28.439 Just you know, you're just sitting there and you're just 1:30:29.800 --> 1:30:31.639 that was a moment I forgot it was body camera 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:34.920 footage and I'm like, wait a minute, isn't just so intimate, right? 1:30:35.080 --> 1:30:39.840 It was felt it almost and then and then it's like, wow, 1:30:39.960 --> 1:30:42.280 what was that police officer invading their space? 1:30:42.600 --> 1:30:44.840 Yeah, it was he invading themselves. But at the same time, 1:30:44.920 --> 1:30:47.720 the police are trying to comfort them. So she was like, 1:30:48.320 --> 1:30:51.680 it's weirdly human also like it's a moment of humanity 1:30:52.200 --> 1:30:53.840 that I think where the police officers were trying to 1:30:53.920 --> 1:30:56.120 hug them and we're trying to console them and didn't 1:30:56.120 --> 1:30:58.559 also didn't know what to do, you know, because it 1:30:58.600 --> 1:31:02.120 was such a so heartbreak. I think though, the it's 1:31:02.160 --> 1:31:05.679 interesting that footage because I think we are so numb 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:10.160 to gun violence. Audiences react more to the grief than 1:31:10.200 --> 1:31:13.679 anything else. And we talked about it with Ajika's mother. 1:31:14.040 --> 1:31:16.320 I was like, do you want this in Like should 1:31:16.320 --> 1:31:17.160 we remove this? 1:31:17.160 --> 1:31:19.960 This is the worst day of these children's lives and 1:31:20.040 --> 1:31:21.960 here it is like do we want this out in 1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:24.679 the world. And she said to me, no, you leave that. 1:31:24.640 --> 1:31:27.280 In She was like, you leave that like Attil's mother. 1:31:27.680 --> 1:31:31.240 Yes, she was like, the world needs if they had 1:31:31.240 --> 1:31:33.960 to go through that, if my grandchildren had to live 1:31:34.000 --> 1:31:37.360 through that, the world can bear witness. You know, it's 1:31:37.360 --> 1:31:41.040 a society failing them. They need the world needs to know. 1:31:41.320 --> 1:31:44.959 And I was like, okay, whatever, you know, that's obviously 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:45.679 it's her call. 1:31:48.200 --> 1:31:50.439 What do you want the average police officer to learn 1:31:50.439 --> 1:31:50.720 from this? 1:31:51.439 --> 1:31:53.799 I think that I would love this to be used 1:31:53.840 --> 1:31:56.400 as a tool for police training, and I think I 1:31:56.439 --> 1:31:58.880 do think there's multiple things at play here. I think 1:31:58.920 --> 1:32:03.839 a lot of police departments are not trained or equipped for. 1:32:03.760 --> 1:32:06.960 These kinds of issues. They're civil, they see them as civil. 1:32:07.479 --> 1:32:11.559 And it was funny to even hear that once during 1:32:11.640 --> 1:32:15.080 the thing, well that's criminal, where Susan's trying so hard 1:32:15.120 --> 1:32:18.880 to like get that, Yeah about criminal, I'm here for that. 1:32:19.280 --> 1:32:21.840 You know what's interesting, though, is we did have a 1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:25.639 police officer, a former law enforcement officer, approached us after 1:32:25.720 --> 1:32:29.320 a screening. He approached my producer and Elisa Payne and 1:32:29.680 --> 1:32:32.120 talked to her and she was nervous because you know, 1:32:32.160 --> 1:32:34.000 he came up and said, I I'm a I used 1:32:34.040 --> 1:32:34.280 to be in. 1:32:34.320 --> 1:32:36.479 Law enforce, and she was like, Okay, here we go. 1:32:36.920 --> 1:32:39.680 I'm about to get a lecture. But he was like, 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:42.639 you know what after the third time Susan called here 1:32:42.640 --> 1:32:45.040 in this state and this was in Utah, he said, 1:32:45.040 --> 1:32:46.720 in this state, she would have been flagged as a 1:32:46.720 --> 1:32:48.000 problem and she. 1:32:47.960 --> 1:32:49.200 Would have been interesting. 1:32:49.280 --> 1:32:51.519 He would have been ticketed. She would have been given 1:32:51.560 --> 1:32:57.240 a warning for abusing emergency services, for essentially calling for 1:32:57.320 --> 1:32:58.679 things that were founded. 1:32:59.000 --> 1:33:00.360 And she was like, in the. 1:33:00.040 --> 1:33:02.680 The community would have been told they could file restraining 1:33:02.800 --> 1:33:05.760 order or charges against her for harassment. 1:33:06.160 --> 1:33:07.200 And that is that. 1:33:07.240 --> 1:33:10.240 How many states have laws like that? I didn't you know, I. 1:33:10.200 --> 1:33:11.240 Don't know, but it's true. 1:33:11.280 --> 1:33:13.880 I do think and we have I think I understand 1:33:13.920 --> 1:33:16.479 that in states, if you constantly call the police and 1:33:16.520 --> 1:33:20.000 it's unfounded, you can be you know, you become Well. 1:33:19.920 --> 1:33:22.920 We've had we I had to pay a fine because 1:33:22.960 --> 1:33:25.840 our alarm went off and our fire alarm went off 1:33:25.880 --> 1:33:27.519 and the fire department came. And I thought, well that 1:33:28.000 --> 1:33:30.040 in some ways that is reasonable. I just you know, 1:33:30.120 --> 1:33:32.559 that should be fined, and like I understood it. I 1:33:32.600 --> 1:33:35.960 was like, oh Jesus, I you know, I hate this 1:33:36.040 --> 1:33:38.800 thing anyway, you know, but I know we have some 1:33:38.840 --> 1:33:40.440 form of that here in Arlington. 1:33:40.120 --> 1:33:41.480 There's no real emergency. 1:33:41.640 --> 1:33:44.200 Right, there was not a fair point, and I. 1:33:44.160 --> 1:33:46.559 Think she so they said that, And then I also 1:33:46.640 --> 1:33:52.400 believe that really there there should be alternative services to police, 1:33:52.560 --> 1:33:58.160 which are for again, community disputes, mediation, mental health crises, 1:33:58.280 --> 1:33:59.040 that type of thing. 1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:02.240 I think that's we don't have enough law enforcement officers 1:34:02.240 --> 1:34:04.360 and then they would have to hire I mean that's like, right, 1:34:05.240 --> 1:34:09.519 we are so well, we're underfunded in things that we 1:34:09.560 --> 1:34:10.440 don't prioritize. 1:34:10.479 --> 1:34:13.840 That's exactly well, I don't know that we because some 1:34:13.880 --> 1:34:17.479 police departments are very well funded, but the funding goes to, 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:20.200 you know, only specific things. 1:34:20.280 --> 1:34:24.040 Some of that funding could go to again services that 1:34:24.280 --> 1:34:27.960 where you send out a social worker, a psychiatrist, you know, 1:34:29.200 --> 1:34:31.080 like and a team of nurses. 1:34:31.160 --> 1:34:33.520 Like this is the kind of thing now here. 1:34:33.280 --> 1:34:35.880 In New York we're talking about for people who are 1:34:35.880 --> 1:34:38.240 having or who are either unhoused or maybe having a 1:34:38.280 --> 1:34:41.000 mental health crisis, because otherwise they end up dead. If 1:34:41.000 --> 1:34:43.519 you call the cops, people get shot, you know, So 1:34:43.880 --> 1:34:45.880 there should be something else in place. 1:34:45.960 --> 1:34:48.920 And I feel like if the police are meant to 1:34:48.960 --> 1:34:51.040 deal with criminal stuff, first of all, you see, they 1:34:51.080 --> 1:34:55.519 don't prevent anything, because Ajka ended up dead regardless, right, 1:34:55.520 --> 1:34:56.320 even though they came home. 1:34:56.360 --> 1:34:59.000 True it didn't work. They were responsive. You can't say 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:02.160 they weren't responsive. So in that sense, good they were. 1:35:02.240 --> 1:35:03.360 They didn't prevent anything. 1:35:03.600 --> 1:35:06.799 They tried to de escalate in the moment. Oh yeah, 1:35:06.880 --> 1:35:09.439 but they didn't have it didn't prevent it. 1:35:09.479 --> 1:35:10.519 Didn't They didn't have a solution. 1:35:10.600 --> 1:35:13.120 And also Susan, but I get the sense they almost 1:35:13.160 --> 1:35:16.080 felt like they couldn't impose a solution. They didn't. It 1:35:16.120 --> 1:35:18.439 wasn't they didn't know what to do. I did get 1:35:18.479 --> 1:35:19.840 the sense they didn't know what to do. 1:35:20.200 --> 1:35:22.439 Yeah, then they are not they are not trained. 1:35:22.880 --> 1:35:25.760 Actually, I think we got we got a hint. And 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:30.439 I'm curious. So there was a moment where one that's sorry, 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:34.800 where one of the officers they leave. You know, this 1:35:34.920 --> 1:35:38.120 is probably the third time that they second or third visit. 1:35:38.240 --> 1:35:43.840 This is sort of early in the film, and the 1:35:43.920 --> 1:35:47.280 officer refers to her as an fing b. 1:35:48.040 --> 1:35:50.240 Yeah, one of them says that, another one calls her a. 1:35:50.200 --> 1:35:54.839 Psycho, and then the audio abruptly cuts. I was curious, 1:35:55.080 --> 1:36:00.200 was that your editor there edit that's shut off, was 1:36:00.240 --> 1:36:04.280 like realized she was She was probably saying something despair. 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:07.800 It was like, God, she's a and then she like, so, 1:36:07.880 --> 1:36:10.160 I'm guessing they're like, well, if you're gonna dispara, you know, 1:36:10.200 --> 1:36:12.840 be careful getting caught on camera disparaging people or something. 1:36:13.120 --> 1:36:16.439 She then that means that's the police officer realizing I 1:36:16.520 --> 1:36:19.040 better shut this off before I get myself. That's right, 1:36:19.680 --> 1:36:22.880 that's right. So there's a sense where the officers know 1:36:22.960 --> 1:36:26.320 who the party that's in the wrong here. They didn't 1:36:26.360 --> 1:36:30.040 know it. They don't have any Is it the law 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:34.000 that's missing? Is it or is it their training? I mean, 1:36:34.120 --> 1:36:38.240 I don't what what do you think is the issue here? 1:36:38.680 --> 1:36:40.640 I think they never saw her as a threat. I 1:36:40.640 --> 1:36:43.800 think she was able to weaponize her as a nuisance, yeah, 1:36:44.120 --> 1:36:46.200 but not a threat. And she was able to weaponize 1:36:46.200 --> 1:36:49.680 her race and privilege to make that true. Had she 1:36:49.760 --> 1:36:52.920 been a person of color filming children and using hate 1:36:52.960 --> 1:36:56.320 speech against them and saying threatening things, I don't think 1:36:56.680 --> 1:36:58.880 this would have gone the way it did, or that 1:36:59.000 --> 1:36:59.800 she would have, you know. 1:36:59.800 --> 1:37:02.080 Not been she might have been an intervention. 1:37:02.920 --> 1:37:03.960 It's more than a nuisance. 1:37:04.000 --> 1:37:06.040 And they also the police also didn't see the community 1:37:06.120 --> 1:37:08.800 is needing protection from her, you know. So I think 1:37:08.880 --> 1:37:12.400 This is unfortunately that they aside from lack of training, 1:37:12.520 --> 1:37:16.040 et cetera, et cetera, and again they are our bar 1:37:16.200 --> 1:37:19.400 for the police. My husband says, this is so low 1:37:19.840 --> 1:37:22.840 that we often mistake they're polite. We missed stake their 1:37:22.840 --> 1:37:25.880 politeness for competence. You know, they didn't see her as 1:37:25.920 --> 1:37:26.280 a threat. 1:37:26.400 --> 1:37:29.640 Meanwhile, in Florida, you could not go there like like 1:37:29.680 --> 1:37:33.360 a toaster or microwave, so that could make anybody a threat. 1:37:33.800 --> 1:37:37.000 And even after she behaved radically driving her car into 1:37:37.080 --> 1:37:39.120 a fence, there was a scene where we saw that 1:37:39.680 --> 1:37:40.920 they didn't think about it. 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:43.280 You know, she never got connected. 1:37:44.120 --> 1:37:49.120 M like, hey, systemic issue. 1:37:48.200 --> 1:37:53.280 She's a she's uniquely broken. I go back to broken. 1:37:54.000 --> 1:37:56.479 I always like to use broken because I assume everybody 1:37:56.560 --> 1:38:00.360 has the potential. Yeah, and you know so you usually 1:38:00.360 --> 1:38:04.360 try to go with broken. But she was something happened right, 1:38:04.400 --> 1:38:07.240 she was not she was She did not process the 1:38:07.240 --> 1:38:08.599 way most people process. 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:12.200 But she was left over here to fester, right by 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:13.360 them then saying, oh. 1:38:13.720 --> 1:38:15.880 My guess is she alienated everybody in her own life? 1:38:16.120 --> 1:38:16.280 Huh? 1:38:16.360 --> 1:38:20.840 I mean it was not, and I don't to me, 1:38:20.920 --> 1:38:23.639 the footage doesn't lie. You didn't paint her as a loaner. 1:38:24.120 --> 1:38:27.120 But we never saw her with anybody, and that doesn't 1:38:27.160 --> 1:38:27.760 surprise me. 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:32.800 Yeah, we knew know she attended a church, so there 1:38:32.880 --> 1:38:34.840 was you know, she was there was a community like. 1:38:34.800 --> 1:38:39.080 She was clearly always miserable. I mean, if if kids 1:38:39.160 --> 1:38:43.000 playing drives you crazy, you've got your own issues. 1:38:43.200 --> 1:38:43.400 Yeah. 1:38:43.640 --> 1:38:45.519 But I think the thing that's really important to say 1:38:45.560 --> 1:38:49.360 here is too the system also failed her. The system 1:38:49.840 --> 1:38:52.760 failed Ajica and her family and that viewpoint. 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:55.240 But it failed her. She should have never had access 1:38:55.240 --> 1:38:57.559 to again. She should have never you know, if there 1:38:57.560 --> 1:39:00.439 had been an intervention, she would not be in jail 1:39:00.520 --> 1:39:02.120 for ostensibly the rest of her life. 1:39:03.160 --> 1:39:06.640 I mean, one law Florida did pass. Was there a 1:39:06.720 --> 1:39:11.160 red flag law after the Parkland shooting that has been 1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:14.800 quite effective in Florida. What happened, and she would have 1:39:14.840 --> 1:39:19.599 been a prime candidate, uh, perhaps for it. Yeah, they knew, 1:39:19.720 --> 1:39:22.320 you know, and that is a question. Did they know 1:39:22.520 --> 1:39:24.840 she was a firearm owner? Because they could have found 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:25.800 out that they chose. 1:39:25.560 --> 1:39:27.880 To, they could have fell out, but they just did not. 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:28.960 They never chose to. 1:39:29.439 --> 1:39:32.320 But she also saw her play victim, right, She weaponized 1:39:32.400 --> 1:39:35.440 victimhood the minute she thought she was in trouble, suddenly. 1:39:35.439 --> 1:39:39.440 Welcome to our welcome to our politics and social media everybody. 1:39:39.040 --> 1:39:43.559 Also, yes, weaponizing victimhood and I think but that has 1:39:43.560 --> 1:39:46.280 been a strategy, I have to say, all like, it's 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:49.280 part of white grievance, right, It's like and also white 1:39:49.320 --> 1:39:52.000 women and their and fear when you look at Emma 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.439 Till's case, right, has led white women and as we 1:39:55.760 --> 1:39:58.679 you know, it's now termed Karen is a Karen. 1:39:58.800 --> 1:40:01.439 I saw that the kids were you Karen, Karen. 1:40:01.479 --> 1:40:04.599 But it's been the weaponization of racism right since. 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:07.400 The time neighbor named Karen. She hates it. I feel 1:40:07.479 --> 1:40:09.720 bad for her that her name's now a pejorative. 1:40:10.120 --> 1:40:14.240 Helpless people have been lynched because of a white woman said, oh, 1:40:14.320 --> 1:40:17.120 I'm afraid. I don't feel safe. They you know, they 1:40:17.840 --> 1:40:19.840 whistled at me or he said he talked to me, 1:40:20.160 --> 1:40:20.360 you know. 1:40:20.720 --> 1:40:23.439 I mean that's how I until died. So we think 1:40:23.479 --> 1:40:26.519 about this and and Susan was doing that. She was 1:40:26.600 --> 1:40:30.679 doing that, and it's like a modern version of that. 1:40:31.560 --> 1:40:37.280 So so what's next for you? Projects? I mean, I 1:40:37.320 --> 1:40:40.080 know most documentaries have like eight projects that they and 1:40:40.120 --> 1:40:43.840 they're waiting for see which one is going Okay, this 1:40:43.880 --> 1:40:45.240 one's ripe, right, it's. 1:40:46.520 --> 1:40:49.479 Last year, I should say my Message Pictures which is 1:40:49.520 --> 1:40:52.479 Sam Pollard, Alisa Payne and myself and the con Kwon 1:40:52.520 --> 1:40:55.840 two is a longtime collaborator. We had Katrina come Helen 1:40:55.920 --> 1:40:58.320 high Water come out on that in October. It was 1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:01.360 a very successful series was number one for them for 1:41:01.400 --> 1:41:03.360 a couple of weeks or for at least a week, 1:41:03.760 --> 1:41:06.240 but it did really well for them. And then we 1:41:06.280 --> 1:41:08.960 also had a short come out, The Devil Is Busy, 1:41:09.120 --> 1:41:12.120 which I co directed with Crystal and Hampton, my best 1:41:12.120 --> 1:41:15.360 friend from college, and that is also nominated for an Oscar. 1:41:15.720 --> 1:41:18.240 So I have two films that are nominated, which is 1:41:18.280 --> 1:41:21.559 apparently the first time it's ever happened for a woman, 1:41:21.920 --> 1:41:24.960 two films all right directed, So that is a huge 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:27.360 you know again for me in honor, also a little 1:41:27.360 --> 1:41:28.799 disappointed that I am the first. 1:41:28.840 --> 1:41:32.200 It should have happened already, but whatever, I'll take it. 1:41:32.720 --> 1:41:34.840 So its yeah. 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:37.760 And then we have the perfect So so now we are. 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:38.840 So we're starting up. 1:41:38.880 --> 1:41:41.519 There is another documentary which we'll be announced in a 1:41:41.520 --> 1:41:45.000 couple of weeks that we're about to we're beginning on 1:41:45.200 --> 1:41:49.200 that we're excited about and then we're also diving back 1:41:49.240 --> 1:41:51.879 into scripted. We have some because I come from scripted, 1:41:51.880 --> 1:41:55.519 Alisa comes subscripted, Sam does scripted, so where ni Con 1:41:55.600 --> 1:41:58.240 was an animation producer, so we have we want to 1:41:58.280 --> 1:42:01.240 sort of branch out into back into other forms that 1:42:01.280 --> 1:42:02.439 we've always been part of. 1:42:02.960 --> 1:42:06.360 Well. One of the things that I've since leaving sort 1:42:06.400 --> 1:42:11.519 of the legacy media world is realizing that there are 1:42:11.560 --> 1:42:14.439 just a million ways to teach people. Yes, right, and 1:42:14.479 --> 1:42:18.160 you know, film, especially with this younger generation that is 1:42:18.520 --> 1:42:21.400 much more visual than they are text. And there's I 1:42:21.520 --> 1:42:26.320 say that I'm not judging, you know, we all learn differently, 1:42:26.320 --> 1:42:30.240 we all absorb differently, and the visual medium as a story, 1:42:30.400 --> 1:42:33.920 you know, and telling stories in some way the best storytellers. 1:42:34.600 --> 1:42:38.639 We need now more than ever in order to educate 1:42:39.080 --> 1:42:41.920 the country about our history, educate people about our history. 1:42:42.000 --> 1:42:45.439 So in that vein, I mean where you know this 1:42:45.600 --> 1:42:48.599 to me is is it's an education film as much 1:42:48.680 --> 1:42:51.880 as it's you know it's there to it's there to 1:42:52.720 --> 1:42:57.280 visually show you something that you can read about. This 1:42:57.320 --> 1:43:00.960 is not a new story, but this was told in 1:43:00.960 --> 1:43:02.840 a more powerful, in a different way, in a way 1:43:02.840 --> 1:43:04.880 that is hopefully going to get absorbed by people who 1:43:04.880 --> 1:43:08.240 may not read. You know, a story I just had 1:43:08.240 --> 1:43:10.000 an author on not too long ago, the person who 1:43:10.040 --> 1:43:13.840 wrote about and the Barn that Emmettil was killed in, 1:43:13.920 --> 1:43:18.439 right Thompson. And it's a terrific book. But in some 1:43:18.479 --> 1:43:20.160 ways not everybody reads books. 1:43:20.360 --> 1:43:22.679 Yeah. Yeah, so it's like, how do we reach people? 1:43:22.960 --> 1:43:23.120 You know? 1:43:23.240 --> 1:43:26.320 Ryan Coogler told a really beautiful story we were We 1:43:26.400 --> 1:43:28.280 have Sinners has been on the you know, we've sort 1:43:28.280 --> 1:43:31.439 of been on the road together and the team. 1:43:31.680 --> 1:43:35.920 You've been seeing you've been doing the circuit with. Yes, 1:43:35.960 --> 1:43:38.479 Sinners is another that's awful, which is such a way 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:38.960 to do horror. 1:43:39.080 --> 1:43:42.040 Yeah, it's such a like again, such a thrill for us. 1:43:42.600 --> 1:43:45.559 But he talked about how in the neighborhood he grew 1:43:45.640 --> 1:43:49.920 up in, like, there were elders who actually, because of 1:43:50.080 --> 1:43:52.160 lack of schooling or they had to leave school at 1:43:52.160 --> 1:43:55.040 an early age, you couldn't read. Like they could run 1:43:55.080 --> 1:43:58.280 a business, they could navigate street signs, they could understand, 1:43:58.320 --> 1:44:02.520 they couldn't actually read and comprehend a book. 1:44:02.479 --> 1:44:03.200 That they had. 1:44:03.240 --> 1:44:03.639 Movies. 1:44:04.800 --> 1:44:07.960 Movies were their medium, you know, a medium for them 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:11.840 to like gain information and think about the world and 1:44:12.160 --> 1:44:15.720 interact with it because they didn't have the privilege of 1:44:15.800 --> 1:44:17.760 learning how to read. And I thought that was so 1:44:18.000 --> 1:44:19.600 powerful and that I have. 1:44:19.680 --> 1:44:22.080 There's some relation to that for me with like the 1:44:22.120 --> 1:44:24.840 women in my family who you know, again elder women 1:44:25.000 --> 1:44:28.040 not my mother's generation, but further back, who might have 1:44:28.080 --> 1:44:30.360 been taken out of school at like a young age. 1:44:30.640 --> 1:44:33.280 They're supposed to you know, at the keep house or something. 1:44:33.479 --> 1:44:37.320 Yeah, And so for them even movies were like an 1:44:37.479 --> 1:44:40.880 escape and something, you know, a medium that they could 1:44:40.960 --> 1:44:42.240 really be immersed in. 1:44:42.400 --> 1:44:44.920 So is there a topic you haven't done that you 1:44:44.960 --> 1:44:45.519 want to tackle. 1:44:47.560 --> 1:44:49.840 I would like to do a comedy. I would like 1:44:49.880 --> 1:44:53.040 to do something I think I've in need. I would 1:44:53.120 --> 1:44:57.040 like to do a humorous movie. That's my That's one 1:44:57.080 --> 1:44:57.360 of the. 1:44:57.360 --> 1:45:00.120 Dreams, just that of funny. 1:45:00.200 --> 1:45:03.600 Yeah, because the humor is so critical. Humor is a 1:45:03.640 --> 1:45:06.200 revolutionary So I feel like that is something. 1:45:06.040 --> 1:45:07.920 That I would like. It's also another way to teach. 1:45:08.280 --> 1:45:11.439 Yes, it is, and it's been used in so many ways. 1:45:11.880 --> 1:45:16.120 I think about Whoopy Goldberg talks about moms Mabley, who 1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:20.080 was her icon, who used that platform of comedy to 1:45:20.120 --> 1:45:23.280 talk about deeply political things she would never have been 1:45:23.320 --> 1:45:24.960 able to talk about otherwise. 1:45:24.560 --> 1:45:29.559 So what me I to get a creator? And I'm 1:45:29.680 --> 1:45:34.479 very curious how do you use AI and what are 1:45:34.479 --> 1:45:37.400 you comfortable with and what are you going to fight 1:45:37.520 --> 1:45:39.519 to the death on when it. 1:45:39.520 --> 1:45:44.439 Comes to the side, we don't use that. I don't 1:45:44.520 --> 1:45:49.519 use that as in my filmmaking, So that does not. 1:45:49.800 --> 1:45:51.320 Are you convinced you'll never use it? 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:56.559 I I am right now convinced I'll never use it. 1:45:56.600 --> 1:45:58.439 But I can't predict the future, right. 1:45:58.400 --> 1:45:59.680 No, I mean I don't think any of us know 1:45:59.720 --> 1:46:03.040 how they Yeah, I do tools get changed on us 1:46:03.080 --> 1:46:03.519 and you're. 1:46:03.520 --> 1:46:06.439 Yeah, right, and also too, does it just become so 1:46:06.560 --> 1:46:08.080 ubiquitous that we have no choice? 1:46:08.160 --> 1:46:10.880 I'm worried about that. I would like to say I 1:46:10.920 --> 1:46:11.880 will never use it. 1:46:12.000 --> 1:46:16.360 I and that is my stance, But there comes a 1:46:16.400 --> 1:46:20.000 point where you end up shut out, right, like if you, 1:46:20.160 --> 1:46:22.320 for example, like I know I will not have a 1:46:22.360 --> 1:46:25.160 cell phone, but then if you don't like it, actually 1:46:26.000 --> 1:46:26.400 you have. 1:46:26.760 --> 1:46:29.360 You just to navigate the word like now you can't. 1:46:29.160 --> 1:46:32.320 Not have one, you cannot have one, and my children too, 1:46:32.439 --> 1:46:33.080 Like it's interesting. 1:46:33.120 --> 1:46:35.759 Even in speaking of surveillance, I always say this, imagine 1:46:35.760 --> 1:46:38.360 if the government. Imagine if the government had said we're 1:46:38.640 --> 1:46:40.679 you have to carry a phone with you all the time. 1:46:40.960 --> 1:46:42.400 What do you mean we have to carry a phone 1:46:42.439 --> 1:46:46.040 with us? Right, yeah, yeah, we all did it voluntarily. 1:46:46.240 --> 1:46:49.120 It's but I think, but. 1:46:49.120 --> 1:46:52.880 I think so that's the thing, like I right now, no, 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:54.920 but twenty years from now. 1:46:56.000 --> 1:46:57.960 I mean you talked about you have a friend who's 1:46:57.960 --> 1:47:01.360 doing an animation. I mean that that that scares me 1:47:01.880 --> 1:47:04.439 at how that will be the first I fear that's 1:47:04.479 --> 1:47:05.679 the first thing that falls. 1:47:05.760 --> 1:47:07.120 Yeah, yeah, the first to. 1:47:07.080 --> 1:47:09.120 Go because it's so expensive and labor intensive. 1:47:09.479 --> 1:47:10.280 Yeah, so. 1:47:11.880 --> 1:47:14.040 You know, but I think we'll have to see it's 1:47:14.120 --> 1:47:16.439 up to our community, right, like we really have to make. 1:47:16.280 --> 1:47:20.080 Decisions well, and it's also up to the public hopefully. 1:47:20.680 --> 1:47:23.400 The stuff that's made with AI is you know, it's 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:28.320 like you don't want to eat plastic fruit, no, you no? 1:47:28.600 --> 1:47:31.280 And I think we've all learned, oh gross, it looks good, 1:47:31.320 --> 1:47:33.000 but probably. 1:47:32.720 --> 1:47:35.240 Right we continue to see the value in what we 1:47:35.280 --> 1:47:37.640 do and don't want to replace. 1:47:37.320 --> 1:47:40.280 Us with well, and it goes like I said, it 1:47:40.280 --> 1:47:42.439 goes back to to take this back to the beginning 1:47:42.439 --> 1:47:46.679 as we land this plane that you know, I believe 1:47:46.760 --> 1:47:52.680 there's a premium on real life in person live authenticity, 1:47:53.280 --> 1:47:56.120 no editors, no anything, and in some case your body 1:47:56.160 --> 1:47:58.960 camera footage is all of that wrapped up. It is, 1:47:59.040 --> 1:48:02.960 you know, the the pushback against you know, manufactured content. 1:48:03.560 --> 1:48:06.320 Thank you, Thank you for saying that. That means a lot. 1:48:06.800 --> 1:48:10.960 Well, look, good luck and uh, I know who I'm 1:48:11.000 --> 1:48:13.040 rooting for night. 1:48:13.680 --> 1:48:15.160 Thank you so much. 1:48:15.160 --> 1:48:27.760 All right, it's great to get to know. Well, let's 1:48:27.800 --> 1:48:31.400 get into the time machine because guess what, let's just 1:48:31.439 --> 1:48:34.680 say thematically, it sort of fits with the UH with 1:48:34.800 --> 1:48:37.400 the broader theme of the beginning of this podcast having 1:48:37.400 --> 1:48:41.880 to do with emergencies and how those in power can 1:48:41.920 --> 1:48:50.120 abuse UH legislation that gives them emergency power. So let's 1:48:50.160 --> 1:49:00.120 get into the time machine. Where are we going? We 1:49:00.160 --> 1:49:03.160 were going back to February twenty seventh, nineteen thirty three, 1:49:04.200 --> 1:49:08.240 the German parliament building known as the Reichstag burned. The 1:49:08.280 --> 1:49:11.400 fire matters, but the story isn't the flames. The real 1:49:11.479 --> 1:49:15.720 story is how fragile Germany's political system already was, how 1:49:15.800 --> 1:49:20.720 quickly legal authority became a vehicle for authoritarian power. And 1:49:20.800 --> 1:49:23.880 to understand the night of the Reichstag fire, you have 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:26.880 to understand why Adolf Hitler was even in office in 1:49:26.920 --> 1:49:31.600 the first place, because he didn't seize power, he was 1:49:31.720 --> 1:49:37.200 handed power. That's how this authoritarian regime in Germany began. 1:49:38.200 --> 1:49:42.080 By the early nineteen thirties, Germany was exhausted. The Great 1:49:42.080 --> 1:49:46.280 Depression had devastated the economy. Remember America was pursuing that 1:49:46.360 --> 1:49:51.760 horrible protectionist tariff policy that was essentially causing the rise 1:49:51.800 --> 1:49:57.200 of nationalism all around the world. That's my historical opinion. 1:49:58.520 --> 1:50:01.439 But it had devastating impact than the European economy, particularly 1:50:01.439 --> 1:50:05.280 the Germans. Unemployment sword banks collapsed. Faith in the parliamentary 1:50:05.320 --> 1:50:10.600 democracy in Germany erode it. The president, Paul von Hindenberg, 1:50:10.680 --> 1:50:15.960 had already appointed three chancellors in rapid succession before he 1:50:16.040 --> 1:50:19.439 ends up appointing Adolf Hitler. First, it was Heinrich Bruening. 1:50:19.840 --> 1:50:23.040 He governed through the harsh austerity measures during the depression. 1:50:23.439 --> 1:50:24.880 He was the one that had to cut spending and 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:28.280 wages in hopes of trying to stabilize the currency. Instead, 1:50:28.680 --> 1:50:32.600 it deepened public misery and he lost support inside that parliament. 1:50:33.080 --> 1:50:37.040 Then came Franz von Poppen, who had virtually no base 1:50:37.120 --> 1:50:41.920 inside parliament and ruled almost entirely by presidential emergency decree. 1:50:42.479 --> 1:50:45.320 He alienated both the left and the right and could 1:50:45.320 --> 1:50:48.800 not build a governing coalition. And then the last one 1:50:48.840 --> 1:50:50.760 before Hitler was a gentleman by the name of Kurt 1:50:50.840 --> 1:50:54.559 von Schlatscher who tried to split the Nazi Party and 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:59.000 construct a cross party alliance. It failed and he quickly 1:50:59.040 --> 1:51:04.719 lost Hindenburg's So in under three years, Germany cycled through 1:51:05.040 --> 1:51:10.960 three increasingly unstable governments. And during that entire period they 1:51:11.000 --> 1:51:14.240 had something called Article forty eight, the emergency clause of 1:51:14.240 --> 1:51:19.080 the Weimar Constitution, which was used regularly to bypass parliament 1:51:19.080 --> 1:51:23.800 because parliament was so dysfunctional and divided, so emergency rule 1:51:24.240 --> 1:51:28.360 had already been normalized in German society's some From there, 1:51:30.040 --> 1:51:35.280 Hitler didn't invent the habit. He stippingly stepped into the void. 1:51:35.439 --> 1:51:40.080 So how did Hitler get there? In nineteen thirty two, 1:51:40.080 --> 1:51:42.599 the Nazi Party had surged to become the largest party 1:51:42.600 --> 1:51:46.360 in parliament. It was real popular support, but he did 1:51:46.400 --> 1:51:48.839 not The Nazi Party did not have a majority in parliament, 1:51:49.680 --> 1:51:52.120 but in the November nineteen thirty two elections, the Nazis 1:51:52.160 --> 1:51:57.040 actually lost seats. Momentum was slipping. Hitler was not inevitable. 1:51:58.600 --> 1:52:04.000 But what changed was the calculation of the elites. Again, 1:52:06.560 --> 1:52:10.720 just think about the Republican Party circa twenty sixteen. But 1:52:10.760 --> 1:52:16.120 I digress. So what changed was elite calculation. Conservative insiders, 1:52:16.200 --> 1:52:20.080 especially Franz von Poppin, believe they could use Hitler's popularity 1:52:20.120 --> 1:52:24.639 to stabilize government. They assumed that they would dominate the Captain, 1:52:25.520 --> 1:52:29.599 that they could box Hitler in, that his radicalism could 1:52:29.600 --> 1:52:36.000 be managed, that his mass following could be harnessed. Well, 1:52:36.560 --> 1:52:40.679 they were wrong, but they tried so. On January thirtieth, 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:44.840 nineteen thirty three, Hindenberg appointed Hitler Chancellor. Not because he 1:52:44.880 --> 1:52:47.839 was democratic, not because he had a majority in parliament 1:52:47.880 --> 1:52:51.160 he did not, but because the elites at the time thought, well, 1:52:52.479 --> 1:52:54.880 he's got the biggest block of supporters and we can 1:52:54.920 --> 1:52:59.559 control him. Or so they thought, so he gets appointed 1:52:59.600 --> 1:53:03.640 January thirtieth, twenty seven. Twenty eight days later, excuse me, 1:53:05.280 --> 1:53:09.040 February twenty seventh, the Reichstock burns now a Dutch communists 1:53:09.080 --> 1:53:12.799 Marinis vander Lub was arrested at the scene. Most historians 1:53:12.840 --> 1:53:17.360 today believe he likely acted alone. Whether the Nazis helped 1:53:17.520 --> 1:53:20.920 or simply exploited the fire is still debated to this day. 1:53:21.840 --> 1:53:26.720 Right was it an inside job? Was you know? Was 1:53:27.200 --> 1:53:33.880 vander Lubi a patsy? But politically it didn't matter. Hitler 1:53:33.920 --> 1:53:37.120 immediately framed the event as the beginning of a communist uprising, 1:53:38.080 --> 1:53:41.479 and that framing found fertile ground. Enemy of my enemy 1:53:41.960 --> 1:53:45.879 is my ally, and everybody feared the communists in Germany. 1:53:46.840 --> 1:53:52.639 Germany had a growing Communist block inside the Reichstock Street. 1:53:52.640 --> 1:53:57.840 Clashes between Nazis and Communists were common. Political violence was 1:53:57.840 --> 1:54:01.160 happening a lot. The violence was real and fear moved quickly. 1:54:01.800 --> 1:54:04.000 So the next day after the fire, February twenty eighth, 1:54:04.040 --> 1:54:09.400 Hindenberg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree under Article forty eight. 1:54:10.760 --> 1:54:15.000 That decree suspended, essentially what is the equivalent of our 1:54:15.080 --> 1:54:18.679 first Amendment. It suspended freedom of speech, freedom of the press, 1:54:18.920 --> 1:54:23.800 freedom of assembly, protections against arrest without charge. This was 1:54:23.920 --> 1:54:34.200 constitutional authority, legal authority. Their constitution essentially created a dictatorship. Legally. 1:54:36.120 --> 1:54:39.840 Thousands of communists were arrested immediately, their ability to organize 1:54:39.840 --> 1:54:43.320 a campaign was crippled. And then here's the here's the 1:54:43.400 --> 1:54:45.600 key with it. A week later, they're holding elections. Anyway, 1:54:45.600 --> 1:54:48.680 they were having another round of elections in March. So 1:54:48.720 --> 1:54:52.160 on March fifth, nineteen thirty three Germany votes, the Nazi 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:54.560 Party receives forty three point nine percent of the vote 1:54:55.000 --> 1:54:58.600 two hundred and eighty eight seats, not a majority. Even 1:54:58.640 --> 1:55:02.600 after the fire, even after the repression, the Nazis did 1:55:02.680 --> 1:55:06.640 not command a majority of German voters. But here's where 1:55:06.640 --> 1:55:10.640 the mechanics mattered. The Communist Party won about twelve percent 1:55:11.480 --> 1:55:14.800 in that election, but many of its deputies were prevented 1:55:14.800 --> 1:55:17.560 from taking their seats. They wouldn't let the Communists in there. 1:55:18.040 --> 1:55:23.840 So it you take away the Communists, suddenly that looks 1:55:23.840 --> 1:55:27.400 like they do have a majority. So when you combined 1:55:27.400 --> 1:55:30.080 with conservative allies, the Nazis had the numbers to move forward. 1:55:31.280 --> 1:55:33.880 Later in March, they passed something called the Enabling Act, 1:55:34.680 --> 1:55:41.480 in a granted Hitler's cabinet authority to legislate without parliamentary approval. 1:55:43.800 --> 1:55:46.800 Just they just he would decree. There was no more 1:55:46.880 --> 1:55:51.480 legislative bridge in Germany at this point. By the way, 1:55:51.480 --> 1:55:55.120 to get this pasted, it required two thirds majority. The 1:55:55.200 --> 1:56:01.160 legislature basically voted to eradicate its existence. And why did 1:56:01.160 --> 1:56:04.080 it pass because the Communist Party members weren't allowed to vote, 1:56:04.080 --> 1:56:08.400 they were absent. Some opposition members were simply intimidated by 1:56:08.440 --> 1:56:13.400 the Nazi thugs. Conservative parties calculated that cooperation was safer 1:56:13.440 --> 1:56:19.960 than resistance. Again go back to nine twenty sixteen. Sorry, 1:56:20.680 --> 1:56:26.800 the authoritarian turned required votes, it required signatures, it required 1:56:26.800 --> 1:56:35.480 a legal procedure. The German dictatorship was done via constitutional rules. 1:56:36.400 --> 1:56:38.480 Why did it work well? By February nineteen thirty three, 1:56:38.520 --> 1:56:42.400 emergency governance had already been normalized. Parliament had already been 1:56:42.400 --> 1:56:46.320 weakened in Germany. The economic crisis had eroded faith in 1:56:46.360 --> 1:56:50.600 liberal democracy in general. What they looked around and wasn't working. 1:56:51.000 --> 1:56:55.920 People didn't like people didn't like that economy. Elites believed 1:56:55.920 --> 1:57:01.240 the temporary authoritarian measures would restore order. So the Reichstag 1:57:01.320 --> 1:57:04.640 fire did not create authoritarianism, but it accelerated a system 1:57:04.680 --> 1:57:09.200 that was already leaning in that direction. And that's what's 1:57:09.200 --> 1:57:13.520 so always been so unsettling about this incident and history, 1:57:13.800 --> 1:57:16.120 because the incident is not the fire or the arson. 1:57:17.680 --> 1:57:21.920 The most unsettling part of this story is its legality. 1:57:22.560 --> 1:57:26.440 German democracy didn't collapse because laws were ignored, just the opposite. 1:57:26.480 --> 1:57:30.400 It collapsed because the laws were used expansively, but they 1:57:30.400 --> 1:57:34.400 were used, and they were used under crisis conditions. Our 1:57:34.400 --> 1:57:39.480 emergency powers are not inherently authoritarian. It's who uses those 1:57:39.480 --> 1:57:44.480 emergency powers. But when crisis becomes the organizing principle of 1:57:44.520 --> 1:57:52.480 governance and legislatures differ rather than assert authority, emergency becomes permanence. 1:57:53.720 --> 1:57:56.840 Hitler did not overthrow the system in one night. He 1:57:56.960 --> 1:58:02.560 operated within it, stretched it until it snapped, and then 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:08.080 created his own scary version. The reichs Dog didn't fall 1:58:08.160 --> 1:58:15.040 in flames, It fell with signatures. Boy, such a reminder. 1:58:15.800 --> 1:58:29.200 History doesn't repeat, but it certainly does. Right, all right, 1:58:29.240 --> 1:58:31.640 little question time. By the way, I might as well 1:58:31.680 --> 1:58:34.920 share this with you so that don't name anything Hindenburg, 1:58:35.120 --> 1:58:37.840 because Hindenburg is a politician and Hindenburg is a blimp 1:58:37.960 --> 1:58:41.160 all end in catastrophe. That's the real takeaway. That's my 1:58:41.240 --> 1:58:44.360 other takeaway from our time machine history of the Reichstag Fire. 1:58:44.360 --> 1:58:45.720 But anyway, let's take some questions. 1:58:45.880 --> 1:58:46.600 Ask Chuck. 1:58:48.440 --> 1:58:49.880 This comes from Jaye New York, and he says, hey, 1:58:49.880 --> 1:58:52.560 you mentioned last week that populism almost always leads to 1:58:52.560 --> 1:58:55.800 with anti semitism. It is an accurate correlation with some 1:58:55.840 --> 1:58:58.600 obvious historical examples Hitler's Germany. But my question is why 1:58:58.640 --> 1:59:02.040 does populism lead to anti stism? Is it simply because populis 1:59:02.040 --> 1:59:04.840 often look for a scapegoat and Jewish people provide an 1:59:04.840 --> 1:59:07.560 easy target as a non Jewish person. I've accepted the 1:59:07.560 --> 1:59:10.760 correlation of populism anti Semitism. I've never really considered the 1:59:10.840 --> 1:59:15.400 why Jay It's an excellent question. I think one is 1:59:15.440 --> 1:59:23.560 we're a super small minority already. Two that's so, and 1:59:23.680 --> 1:59:32.160 minorities get scapegoated generally. Two Jews do punch above their 1:59:32.160 --> 1:59:37.400 weight in corporate America, in the finance world, So in 1:59:37.720 --> 1:59:44.960 tough economic times it becomes if you already, especially if 1:59:44.960 --> 1:59:49.760 you you know, look, there's less anti Semitism in South 1:59:49.760 --> 1:59:52.560 Florida because there's more Jews that live in South Florida, right, 1:59:53.160 --> 1:59:55.440 you know, they're to me, the correlation of anti Semitism 1:59:55.640 --> 2:00:00.320 usually is where there's fewer Jews. Right wherever you see 2:00:00.360 --> 2:00:02.360 the least amount of Jews, you'll see the most amount 2:00:02.360 --> 2:00:07.080 of anti Semitism. Some of it's driven by some some 2:00:08.080 --> 2:00:12.080 hateful sects of Christianity, not Christianity itself, but there are 2:00:12.200 --> 2:00:16.839 some sort of sex that most Christians would denounce that 2:00:16.840 --> 2:00:24.320 that that use religion to sort of teach hate of Jews. 2:00:24.960 --> 2:00:31.480 But it's it. I've all, you know, looked as I 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:33.920 look at it, and you're just like I just I 2:00:34.080 --> 2:00:37.000 find it amusing that this tiny you know, that that 2:00:37.560 --> 2:00:40.720 we Jews here that were like point three percent of 2:00:40.720 --> 2:00:44.720 the globe's population or something like that, and yet we're 2:00:45.760 --> 2:00:50.560 and in fact, we're still below our population high are 2:00:50.640 --> 2:00:53.560 below the popular what the Jewish population of the globe 2:00:53.600 --> 2:00:58.920 was pre World War Two. And you know, we're apparently, 2:00:59.240 --> 2:01:02.000 you know, behind all these incredible conspiracies. So we really, 2:01:02.000 --> 2:01:07.480 I guess, punch above our weight. But look, it's always 2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:12.440 easy to scapegoat entities you don't know. And it's still 2:01:12.440 --> 2:01:15.320 there are still huge pockets in this country, huge pockets 2:01:15.320 --> 2:01:18.160 around the world that no Jewish people exist, but have 2:01:18.280 --> 2:01:22.120 never met one. So when you have not when you 2:01:22.120 --> 2:01:25.320 don't know anybody as a three dimensional figure, it's easy 2:01:25.360 --> 2:01:33.680 to turn them into sort of two dimensional enemies. It's 2:01:33.800 --> 2:01:40.520 the best explanation I have, But it is, you know, 2:01:41.120 --> 2:01:43.480 I appreciate that. I mean, it's interesting the way you 2:01:43.720 --> 2:01:45.960 word it, you sort of you accept you accept that 2:01:46.000 --> 2:01:48.560 as an accurate correlation. I mean it just it just 2:01:48.720 --> 2:01:56.000 is always what happens. I think sometimes we forget that, 2:01:56.080 --> 2:02:01.960 you know, bad ideas are usually not rational. Maybe that's 2:02:02.000 --> 2:02:05.160 a better way to look at him. Next question comes 2:02:05.200 --> 2:02:10.440 from Bills from Newburg, Oregon, but he says temporarily false Church, Virginia. Well, 2:02:10.440 --> 2:02:13.720 it's nice to have you as a neighbor, Bill, he says. 2:02:13.800 --> 2:02:15.840 I think if you answer this one, then I'll enter 2:02:15.880 --> 2:02:17.840 the five timers club. If that means that you've read 2:02:17.920 --> 2:02:20.120 five of my questions on here. If you do honor 2:02:20.120 --> 2:02:22.760 me thus, I humbly thank you. Is this the first 2:02:22.800 --> 2:02:25.720 administration that runs the most like a business that you've 2:02:25.760 --> 2:02:28.320 ever seen? Long a mantra of Republicans, I think they 2:02:28.360 --> 2:02:31.120 finally got their wish and this administration is run the 2:02:31.160 --> 2:02:34.040 most like a business or any other. Your defense of 2:02:34.120 --> 2:02:36.720 Casey Watperson's corporation is acting rightly in the face of 2:02:36.760 --> 2:02:38.760 the Epstein files made me shake my head. I think 2:02:38.800 --> 2:02:41.800 this administration is handling the Epstein files exactly the way 2:02:41.840 --> 2:02:45.040 a corporation's PR department went. I often say go Kaines, 2:02:45.080 --> 2:02:47.880 but this time I'll say go Seahawks, my adopted team. 2:02:47.920 --> 2:02:54.000 Thanks billis I didn't know I was defending the Casey 2:02:54.200 --> 2:02:58.600 Washerman Corporation ex actly rightly in the face anyway, Not 2:02:58.760 --> 2:03:02.880 quite sure. I get the question you're asking if it's 2:03:02.920 --> 2:03:06.600 running more like Well, it depends on if by running 2:03:06.600 --> 2:03:10.080 the business, do you do what's in the best interest 2:03:10.680 --> 2:03:12.400 A business is supposed to do what's in the best 2:03:12.400 --> 2:03:18.200 interest of its bottom line. The question does Donald Trump 2:03:18.320 --> 2:03:20.680 run this administration and the best interest in the bottom 2:03:20.680 --> 2:03:23.600 line of the United States, or does he run it 2:03:23.680 --> 2:03:26.000 in the best interests of the bottom line of Donald Trump. 2:03:26.760 --> 2:03:31.640 I know that sounds a bit sort of like hyperbole, 2:03:31.720 --> 2:03:35.000 but I feel like he makes more decisions based on 2:03:35.120 --> 2:03:38.920 what's in his best interest in the private sector, he 2:03:39.000 --> 2:03:41.640 and his friends, et cetera. But it's not always in 2:03:41.680 --> 2:03:44.320 the best interest at the bottom line of the United States. 2:03:45.920 --> 2:03:51.960 So that's where you know he's picking winners and losers. 2:03:51.960 --> 2:03:57.640 So I understand the I understand the premise here question. 2:03:58.160 --> 2:04:00.080 I just don't see the evidence that he is running 2:04:00.120 --> 2:04:03.560 it like a like a If he's running it like 2:04:03.600 --> 2:04:06.240 a business, he's not running it like a business that 2:04:06.320 --> 2:04:09.600 wants to grow, expand and be successful over time. Right, 2:04:09.880 --> 2:04:12.200 it feels like he's running it more like how does 2:04:12.520 --> 2:04:16.400 a legacy business that's trying to survive rather than thrive. 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:22.919 But I've always you know, if you ran the government 2:04:23.080 --> 2:04:28.840 like a business, you would you probably would get rid 2:04:28.920 --> 2:04:33.280 of a lot of poverty measures because they you know, 2:04:33.320 --> 2:04:36.600 you might get rid of. You might not stockpile as 2:04:36.680 --> 2:04:42.360 much defense weaponry either, right, you know, so there'd be 2:04:42.360 --> 2:04:44.520 a lot of regulation, a lot more regulation you might 2:04:44.520 --> 2:04:50.040 get rid of if you were running it like a business. Anyway, 2:04:50.080 --> 2:04:52.360 I don't think he's running it in the best interests 2:04:52.400 --> 2:04:56.720 of the US government's bottom line. I think ultimately, if 2:04:56.760 --> 2:04:58.960 he's running it like a business, he's running it in 2:04:59.040 --> 2:05:04.320 the best interests of his own bottom line. I'm trying 2:05:04.360 --> 2:05:06.800 to see where you caught what I was saying about 2:05:06.840 --> 2:05:11.200 Casey Wasserman, and how you any I wasn't defect. I 2:05:11.320 --> 2:05:16.200 look at the Casey Wasserman situation and think, you know, 2:05:16.200 --> 2:05:18.520 I was talking with the journalists who said that they 2:05:18.600 --> 2:05:20.480 they had a line. The way they were dealing with 2:05:20.520 --> 2:05:25.520 it is anybody with Epstein ties pre two thousand and seven, 2:05:25.680 --> 2:05:29.600 they weren't going to treat treat like what were you 2:05:29.720 --> 2:05:34.880 thinking that they were willing to give anybody preos basically 2:05:34.960 --> 2:05:37.720 pre charges being brought against him some benefit of that. 2:05:39.080 --> 2:05:41.440 There's a middle ground of people that sort of still 2:05:41.520 --> 2:05:43.880 kept in touch with him and then until he you know, 2:05:44.000 --> 2:05:46.919 then and then walked after that, and then there's anybody 2:05:46.920 --> 2:05:49.440 that you dealt with him after two thousand and nine, 2:05:49.480 --> 2:05:52.240 you don't, right, Wasserman is one of the few that 2:05:52.960 --> 2:05:57.160 is being punished for emails that go back to twenty 2:05:57.200 --> 2:06:01.320 oh two, twenty three that don't seem to go there. 2:06:01.320 --> 2:06:03.560 So that would be one, but it is, you know, 2:06:05.720 --> 2:06:08.280 and yes, I do agree that the Epstein files in 2:06:08.320 --> 2:06:11.440 that sense are being Yes, the handling of that on 2:06:11.560 --> 2:06:14.400 a pr level, I'll give you that that right, The 2:06:14.760 --> 2:06:17.000 best way of business would do is just put it 2:06:17.040 --> 2:06:19.880 all out there, make every you know, don't organize it 2:06:19.880 --> 2:06:22.320 for people, make other people have to figure it out. 2:06:22.320 --> 2:06:24.480 The problem with this is that every couple of days 2:06:24.480 --> 2:06:26.680 there's like a new It feels like a new development 2:06:26.720 --> 2:06:30.240 because you know, somebody is you know, methodically, you know, 2:06:30.320 --> 2:06:34.280 there's hundreds and thousands of people methodically going through these 2:06:34.880 --> 2:06:38.800 these files, and there's always something new to find. And 2:06:39.000 --> 2:06:41.720 again you look around, I mean, I miss this. I'm 2:06:41.760 --> 2:06:44.440 a I'm an adjunct professor at USC. Apparently we had 2:06:44.440 --> 2:06:47.000 some USC professors get caught up in the Epstein files. 2:06:48.600 --> 2:06:51.400 So this has been like a machine gun that went 2:06:51.440 --> 2:06:58.840 off erratically and bullets went everywhere, and everybody's paying a 2:06:58.880 --> 2:07:01.600 price except Donald Trump. I think Donald Trump's paying a 2:07:01.600 --> 2:07:04.440 price too, right, you know, is he going to pay 2:07:04.440 --> 2:07:07.320 a direct price or does he pay an indirect political price? 2:07:07.360 --> 2:07:12.960 And I think he's paying the indirect political price more importantly, Bill, 2:07:13.320 --> 2:07:15.400 if that is your five timer, congrats, welcome to the 2:07:15.440 --> 2:07:19.320 five Timers club. Maybe we should get mugs or something, 2:07:19.400 --> 2:07:24.280 get some swag for that as well. Next question comes 2:07:24.280 --> 2:07:27.040 from Philip in Biloxi. He says, hey, they're my Congressman. 2:07:27.080 --> 2:07:31.880 Mike Eazell surprisingly is embracing the Supreme Court's decision. He 2:07:31.920 --> 2:07:35.280 was interviewed locally on WLOX where he said, and I'm paraphrasing, 2:07:35.320 --> 2:07:36.680 we may not like it, but the Supreme Court is 2:07:36.680 --> 2:07:38.000 the final word, and we have to obey the law 2:07:38.000 --> 2:07:40.360 of the land. He's also running a local radio that 2:07:40.600 --> 2:07:44.040 says something like, thanks to Trump and Eazel, the economy 2:07:44.080 --> 2:07:46.200 is booming and we're living in a golden age, which 2:07:46.240 --> 2:07:48.280 is why I say it's surprising because he normally echoes 2:07:48.320 --> 2:07:50.240 all of Trump's talking points. Thanks also for being the 2:07:50.280 --> 2:07:54.480 only national voice I know that occasionally speaks about Mississippi politics, 2:07:54.560 --> 2:08:01.960 Philip and Biloxi. You know, that's very heartening to hear. 2:08:02.160 --> 2:08:06.280 And I think it is a reminder that that I 2:08:06.760 --> 2:08:09.720 do take the more optimistic approach about elected officials, that 2:08:09.800 --> 2:08:12.120 most of them do want to accept the structure of 2:08:12.160 --> 2:08:15.360 the constitution. That really the most abusive, the person that 2:08:15.840 --> 2:08:17.640 has the least amount of respect for it is the 2:08:17.640 --> 2:08:20.720 guy sitting in the oval office. And and yes, you 2:08:20.840 --> 2:08:24.080 certainly have people who don't want to look like they're 2:08:24.080 --> 2:08:26.320 on the wrong side. And notice how you know that 2:08:27.800 --> 2:08:31.240 there's different ways you can you can sort of accept, well, 2:08:31.400 --> 2:08:35.720 Supreme Court the law of the land. He doesn't want 2:08:35.720 --> 2:08:38.600 to get caught being anti Trump, but he may be 2:08:38.760 --> 2:08:43.560 very happy that this happened, you know. So the point 2:08:43.640 --> 2:08:46.880 is is that given where he is at, you know, 2:08:47.520 --> 2:08:51.360 I think the the he couldn't get caught pushing, you know, 2:08:51.480 --> 2:08:54.920 publicly celebrating the Supreme Court ruling. So I think there's 2:08:54.960 --> 2:08:58.240 a difference. Right, I'm curious to see who celebrates it, 2:08:59.280 --> 2:09:01.240 who uses the this is a moment. You know, who 2:09:01.320 --> 2:09:04.920 else is Don Bacon not running for reelection? Right? Who 2:09:04.920 --> 2:09:08.880 else goes that far? Out on the limb on that. 2:09:09.000 --> 2:09:14.520 But and let's see, you know, what does he do 2:09:14.640 --> 2:09:17.680 if he does have to vote in Congress on any 2:09:17.680 --> 2:09:19.720 of these things. I'm not convinced that Trump wants to 2:09:19.760 --> 2:09:24.800 go do that, but we'll see. Next question comes from 2:09:24.840 --> 2:09:30.480 an elected official, John m imperially, a mayor from New Jersey, 2:09:30.480 --> 2:09:32.800 and he writes, first, Chuck, thank you for the podcast 2:09:32.920 --> 2:09:35.840 Political Junkie and amateur Historians Dream Come True. I'm the 2:09:35.840 --> 2:09:37.440 mayor of a small town in New Jersey and frequently 2:09:37.480 --> 2:09:40.080 electure on American history and specifically the Constitution from a 2:09:40.160 --> 2:09:42.840 quote citizen's point of view. So here's my question. What 2:09:42.920 --> 2:09:45.560 if the Constitutional Convention had been held in the spring 2:09:45.680 --> 2:09:47.720 or fall of seventeen eighty seven rather than the summer. 2:09:48.000 --> 2:09:50.120 My point is that the delegates of the Constitutional Convention 2:09:50.160 --> 2:09:51.920 could not wait to get out of the hot, muggy, 2:09:51.960 --> 2:09:55.560 miserable Philadelphia that summer. The result of brilliant constitution and principle, 2:09:55.560 --> 2:09:58.320 but with way too many particulars rushed over and not 2:09:58.400 --> 2:10:00.640 properly thought out. One of the thought for you is 2:10:00.720 --> 2:10:03.000 to throw out in your podcast, exactly who are the 2:10:03.000 --> 2:10:05.400 founding fathers? The fifty six men who signed the Declaration 2:10:05.400 --> 2:10:08.160 of Independence, the thirty nine men who signed the Constitution 2:10:08.640 --> 2:10:10.880 or the six men who signed both. And when I asked, 2:10:10.960 --> 2:10:12.840 who do the six men who signed both are, no 2:10:12.880 --> 2:10:16.000 one gets it right. They are George Climber, George Reed, 2:10:16.440 --> 2:10:24.680 Roger Sherman, Robert Morris, James Wilson, and Benjamin Franklin. Mayor Imperiality. 2:10:25.000 --> 2:10:26.760 First of all, I want to come visit your town. 2:10:27.400 --> 2:10:31.880 Love love hearing this. Appreciate you loving the history part. 2:10:33.280 --> 2:10:35.840 I think you had to sign both. I think to 2:10:35.880 --> 2:10:39.080 be founding father. So let's go at the six right 2:10:39.160 --> 2:10:42.520 they should they shouldn't. We probably should make a bigger 2:10:42.520 --> 2:10:45.960 deal out of them. You know, I have confessed a 2:10:45.960 --> 2:10:49.160 few times that I'm a sports card junkie. I guess 2:10:49.160 --> 2:10:53.680 you called it a baseball card junkie. In two thousand 2:10:53.680 --> 2:10:57.240 and nine, Tops put out an American History set and 2:10:57.280 --> 2:11:00.160 it was great. It had like little insert sets of 2:11:00.200 --> 2:11:02.920 Medal of Honor winners, and every Medal of Honor winner 2:11:03.040 --> 2:11:05.800 up through two thousand and nine gave you a little 2:11:05.840 --> 2:11:08.560 and I I just loved it. I you know, my 2:11:08.880 --> 2:11:11.080 daughter was five at the time, and so I made 2:11:11.120 --> 2:11:12.880 a big deal and we built we have this great 2:11:12.920 --> 2:11:16.320 album of it and all this stuff, and and it 2:11:16.360 --> 2:11:18.480 has a whole bunch of subsets of those that signed 2:11:18.520 --> 2:11:21.360 the Constitution and those that signed the Declaration of Independence. 2:11:22.040 --> 2:11:24.560 But we really ought to say, make a bigger deal 2:11:24.640 --> 2:11:27.840 on the six. You know, and you know, at least 2:11:27.880 --> 2:11:30.120 one is a name that most people already know of, 2:11:30.280 --> 2:11:34.040 Benjamin Frank. So it's a it's a pretty good it's 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:41.800 a pretty good place to start. But that's a kudos. 2:11:41.880 --> 2:11:45.680 Let's make those Let's make the uh the founding six. 2:11:46.560 --> 2:11:48.760 Let's maybe over time we give them more and more 2:11:48.800 --> 2:11:52.000 of their due. Thanks for listening and thanks for your service. 2:11:53.400 --> 2:11:55.880 John another New Jersey and writes in this is John 2:11:55.880 --> 2:11:57.800 from New Jersey. I don't think it's the same, John, 2:11:58.920 --> 2:12:00.800 an he rights was waiting to hear your thoughts on 2:12:00.840 --> 2:12:03.440 these two news bits. One that Gallup ending its presidential 2:12:03.480 --> 2:12:07.080 tracking poll in two and Alila Mahea is beating Tom 2:12:07.120 --> 2:12:09.560 Malinowski in New Jersey special election. I think it's upsetting 2:12:09.600 --> 2:12:11.960 the Gallup is choosing to stop polling presidential approval rather 2:12:12.000 --> 2:12:14.200 than report on the current administration's coort rating. Do you 2:12:14.240 --> 2:12:16.680 see other firms mimicking this? And what are your thoughts 2:12:16.720 --> 2:12:18.640 on Mahia's win. I'm curious about how the June primary 2:12:18.640 --> 2:12:20.760 will go if there's more of a consolidation in that primary, 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:22.960 But it looks like the establishment is already called lest 2:12:23.000 --> 2:12:27.800 a rounder. I did some Gallup thoughts on my sub 2:12:27.840 --> 2:12:31.440 stack last week. If you wanted to read those. You know, 2:12:31.480 --> 2:12:35.000 it's funny when you're in this, when you're making content 2:12:35.120 --> 2:12:39.920 in multiple places, you touch everything. You don't know if 2:12:39.960 --> 2:12:43.040 you've touched everything in every place, and I have not, 2:12:43.920 --> 2:12:47.040 you are correct. I have not touched New Jersey eleven here. 2:12:47.120 --> 2:12:48.760 I've done it in a couple other spots. I think 2:12:48.760 --> 2:12:51.640 I did it with the Silissa podcast, and we haven't 2:12:51.640 --> 2:12:53.480 touched and Gallop. I don't think I mentioned on the 2:12:53.520 --> 2:12:56.400 podcast maybe quickly in passing, but I did write up 2:12:56.400 --> 2:13:02.040 on gal I look, first of all, parse the announcement 2:13:02.240 --> 2:13:05.280 very very carefully from Gallup. Gallup said they're going to 2:13:05.280 --> 2:13:10.880 stop publicly releasing their job approval on the president. I 2:13:10.920 --> 2:13:14.320 didn't get clarification of whether they're not actually asking the question. 2:13:14.480 --> 2:13:18.960 It's absolutely malpracticed, and not ask the question on any 2:13:19.000 --> 2:13:22.200 survey you're doing on anything in the public policy space 2:13:22.240 --> 2:13:25.120 at all, because you've got it is it is a 2:13:25.280 --> 2:13:30.360 helpful way to at least understand how partisan folks are 2:13:30.360 --> 2:13:33.760 behaving where they lie. It gives you a better sense 2:13:33.800 --> 2:13:38.240 of which policy ideas have political traction versus those that 2:13:38.360 --> 2:13:41.280 may have, you know, or less driven by ideology, more 2:13:41.360 --> 2:13:47.440 driven by popularity. It's it's just a it's it's it 2:13:47.480 --> 2:13:53.800 would be malpracticed not to have that piece of data 2:13:53.880 --> 2:13:58.760 with you. It is hard not to wonder Gallups Primary. 2:13:59.000 --> 2:14:02.640 You know, they do a lot of survey work and 2:14:02.760 --> 2:14:05.920 private survey work, and they have a lot of federal contracts. 2:14:09.840 --> 2:14:12.000 The lack of trust anybody has in this country right 2:14:12.000 --> 2:14:15.240 now of any corporation and Donald Trump is amazing because 2:14:16.120 --> 2:14:19.520 a lot of people immediately looked up the amount of 2:14:19.560 --> 2:14:22.960 federal contracts that Gallup has with the government, sees that 2:14:23.080 --> 2:14:26.400 was quite a bit and could easily see right, Donald 2:14:26.440 --> 2:14:29.240 Trump already was mad at Politico, So then everybody in 2:14:29.280 --> 2:14:32.280 the government had to cancel their political subscriptions, whether they 2:14:32.280 --> 2:14:38.160 had a political produce subscription somewhere, et cetera. And it 2:14:38.200 --> 2:14:40.520 sounds like Gallup was worried about its bottom line and 2:14:40.600 --> 2:14:43.760 worried about its business. It's possible they thought there was 2:14:44.040 --> 2:14:46.280 no upside to it, since a whole bunch of other 2:14:46.280 --> 2:14:49.040 people were putting it out publicly. Nobody was saying Gallups 2:14:49.120 --> 2:14:51.880 was the best of the polls that are out there. 2:14:51.920 --> 2:14:54.360 Gallup had the best brand name out there, but their 2:14:54.400 --> 2:14:56.320 poll for a long time hadn't been the best poll. 2:14:57.600 --> 2:15:00.400 It had been sort of problematic for a long time. 2:15:00.720 --> 2:15:02.720 You know. I remember when they stopped, they had a 2:15:02.800 --> 2:15:07.240 daily tracking pole, which was a total mess because while 2:15:07.280 --> 2:15:10.720 I don't think their methodology changed, how people interpreted the 2:15:10.800 --> 2:15:13.640 changes just created all sorts of friction, and they did 2:15:13.640 --> 2:15:16.760 a terrible job of communicating when they're when the tracking 2:15:16.760 --> 2:15:21.800 pole would change. So, you know, I think Gallup got 2:15:21.800 --> 2:15:23.920 out of the public polling business a long time ago. 2:15:24.040 --> 2:15:26.200 Right when it used to be the CNN USA Today 2:15:26.240 --> 2:15:31.160 Gallup pole, that was the you know, basically the only 2:15:31.200 --> 2:15:33.520 pole that was considered better than that one was NBC 2:15:33.600 --> 2:15:37.400 News Wall Street Journal. But over time, the CNN the 2:15:37.680 --> 2:15:41.280 Gallup pole had shown a lot more instability, and I 2:15:41.320 --> 2:15:44.920 know that we we certainly stopped using it as a 2:15:45.120 --> 2:15:47.720 reliable indicator. So I'm not going to sit here and 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:50.240 call the Gallup pole, you know, but I but it 2:15:50.280 --> 2:15:55.360 would be it would be malpractice, not the doing any 2:15:55.400 --> 2:15:58.920 survey that you do public, public or private in order 2:15:58.920 --> 2:16:01.680 to understand your survey better, in order to have a baseline, 2:16:01.680 --> 2:16:04.960 in order to know your your your survey isn't totally 2:16:04.960 --> 2:16:08.400 out of whack. You know, job job approval is one 2:16:08.400 --> 2:16:10.720 of those ubiquitous questions that helps you and you know, 2:16:11.080 --> 2:16:14.040 understand whether you basically have a you know, it's a 2:16:14.160 --> 2:16:16.120 the fact that so many other posters do it, it 2:16:16.160 --> 2:16:18.480 serves as almost a check to make sure you're you 2:16:18.520 --> 2:16:20.200 don't have a you know, you know for sure, do 2:16:20.200 --> 2:16:22.200 you have an out could you have an outlier survey, 2:16:22.560 --> 2:16:27.480 et cetera. So do pay attention to the fact that 2:16:27.520 --> 2:16:29.280 they just simply said they stopped they were going to 2:16:29.280 --> 2:16:33.840 stop publishing the result. Again, I can't imagine anybody would 2:16:33.840 --> 2:16:37.600 actually stop asking it. I mean again, it's a it's 2:16:37.640 --> 2:16:40.119 it's one of those questions. It's almost like a stabilizing question. 2:16:40.160 --> 2:16:42.879 It helps you understand whether your your survey is is 2:16:42.920 --> 2:16:47.640 A is a trustworthy uh A trustworthy survey. As for 2:16:47.680 --> 2:16:50.640 the MAHI, I think look that the most fascinating aspect 2:16:50.680 --> 2:16:53.039 of this was the aggressiveness of apac Right. They wanted 2:16:53.080 --> 2:16:57.480 to take Malanski down. They went after them hard, and 2:16:58.560 --> 2:17:03.520 they were successful. They is the negatives of Malinowski, and 2:17:03.600 --> 2:17:06.920 they see but the candidate they were hoping to help 2:17:07.000 --> 2:17:10.760 ended up finishing third, and the candidate that benefited from 2:17:10.920 --> 2:17:13.800 APEX attack ads in Malinowski was somebody further to the 2:17:13.879 --> 2:17:19.120 left than Malinowski and perhaps just as unfriendly to some 2:17:19.160 --> 2:17:24.039 of APAX issues as Malanowski had become. So it was 2:17:24.120 --> 2:17:27.360 really one of those a reminder that when you do 2:17:27.520 --> 2:17:34.440 attack ads and multi candidate races in primaries, know what 2:17:34.480 --> 2:17:37.519 you're trying to do. If you're trying to take somebody out, 2:17:38.280 --> 2:17:41.200 do know who could benefit you know? And are you 2:17:41.320 --> 2:17:43.200 sure you're going to end up with somebody that isn't 2:17:43.240 --> 2:17:47.320 going to be more more of a problem for your issues? 2:17:47.840 --> 2:17:51.000 In this case, I think it was. It was that, 2:17:51.160 --> 2:17:53.520 I think it And this is where when interest when 2:17:53.520 --> 2:18:00.280 a big interest group goes after somebody, sometimes it's you know, 2:18:01.760 --> 2:18:04.080 Canada and candidate be cancel each other, it's out and 2:18:04.120 --> 2:18:08.120 a candidate ce ends up benefiting. We got some three 2:18:08.160 --> 2:18:10.039 way prime. We got a three way primary coming up 2:18:10.080 --> 2:18:12.160 in Texas, Right, We're going to see something like that 2:18:12.280 --> 2:18:16.920 take place. Right, does Wesley Hunt benefit from all the 2:18:16.959 --> 2:18:21.160 cornant attack ads on Paxton right? Rather than Cornyn. I mean, 2:18:21.200 --> 2:18:24.360 it certainly looks like Cornan has not benefited from all 2:18:24.360 --> 2:18:28.200 these attacks on Paxton, but instead the demo generic Democratic 2:18:28.280 --> 2:18:33.119 vote has benefited when matched up against Paxton in general 2:18:33.160 --> 2:18:36.600 election matchups, and Paxton's negatives keep going up, but it 2:18:36.720 --> 2:18:39.560 is not helping Cornyon. So it is a reminder that 2:18:39.680 --> 2:18:44.320 basically negative ads can work, but don't assume those negative 2:18:44.320 --> 2:18:47.160 ads will accrue to the benefit of another candidate. That 2:18:47.160 --> 2:18:49.280 if you want to benefit, it could always accrue to 2:18:49.320 --> 2:18:55.840 a third candidate. But as for look, I think I certainly, 2:18:55.920 --> 2:18:59.840 you know, I see why everybody's going ahead and rilly 2:19:00.080 --> 2:19:02.840 knocked off somebody who used to have the title Corners 2:19:04.720 --> 2:19:07.640 and seem to win despite not being the biggest spender 2:19:07.760 --> 2:19:11.760 or anything like that. So I understand why the establishment 2:19:11.760 --> 2:19:14.800 at this point is like, well, might as well, might 2:19:14.800 --> 2:19:25.400 as well get behind money. Next question comes from Robert Leeds. 2:19:25.720 --> 2:19:27.800 Any rights, Hey check meet the press, missus. You I 2:19:27.840 --> 2:19:29.840 worked in several campaigns. Anyway, I'm a Gold trader and 2:19:29.920 --> 2:19:31.880 have said for years that during Trump's first term and 2:19:31.920 --> 2:19:34.640 again during the second, Gold seems to do weird things. 2:19:34.680 --> 2:19:36.560 On the eve of the job's report, huge sell orders 2:19:36.600 --> 2:19:38.600 would come in overnight when the market was strong, gold 2:19:38.680 --> 2:19:40.960 would crash for five seconds, go back up, and then 2:19:41.000 --> 2:19:43.600 a bearsh report will come out at eight thirty. After 2:19:43.600 --> 2:19:46.920 seeing your podcast today, I wanted to share this. You're 2:19:46.959 --> 2:19:48.840 doing a great job. Thanks. Well. What he was talking 2:19:48.840 --> 2:19:53.680 about was this weird again. And I think we've got 2:19:53.680 --> 2:19:57.480 to get some regulatory structure around these prediction markets versus 2:19:57.520 --> 2:20:01.039 gambling markets, et cetera. But there's got to be a 2:20:01.120 --> 2:20:05.720 way to deal with fraud. And somebody gained the jobs numbers. 2:20:05.800 --> 2:20:08.280 Right when Peter Navarro goes out warns of a bad 2:20:08.360 --> 2:20:11.400 jobs report, jobs report turns out much better the next 2:20:11.480 --> 2:20:13.920 day than what he went out there. And of all 2:20:14.040 --> 2:20:16.920 people to go out there as somebody who's already of 2:20:17.320 --> 2:20:24.160 questionable credibility on his information in general, right, that just 2:20:24.600 --> 2:20:30.080 smells crazy. And you know this is where I you know, 2:20:30.360 --> 2:20:34.880 we're going full speed into these new markets without you know, 2:20:34.920 --> 2:20:37.960 we were building the ideas first and trying to come 2:20:38.000 --> 2:20:42.080 up with the regulation later. Very hard to put regulation 2:20:42.560 --> 2:20:46.320 on something that's already left the station. And I'm concerned 2:20:46.360 --> 2:20:48.520 about this, but we don't seem to have a very good, 2:20:49.000 --> 2:20:53.040 very interesting what you say on gold, You've just explained 2:20:53.080 --> 2:20:56.640 why I do not get involved in those markets at all. 2:20:57.360 --> 2:21:00.200 I don't trust them. I think there's the people that 2:21:00.200 --> 2:21:04.160 are most involved are doing it as hedge hedges and 2:21:04.240 --> 2:21:08.520 games and gaming it in some form, and those are 2:21:08.560 --> 2:21:12.960 just not That's not where my comfort level is, you know, 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:19.320 like I like, I'm more of them. My financial advisor 2:21:19.360 --> 2:21:22.200 and I were more of the warm Buffett acolytes, right, 2:21:24.520 --> 2:21:29.720 like investing in companies that people use, you know, durable goods, 2:21:29.920 --> 2:21:32.600 not always durable goods, but some durable goods, some texts 2:21:32.600 --> 2:21:36.120 on this, on that, but you know, companies that actually succeed, 2:21:36.200 --> 2:21:41.840 not just hypotheticals. Next question comes from Dan in Fairfax. 2:21:41.840 --> 2:21:43.800 He goes, hey, I consider myself an informed voter, but 2:21:43.879 --> 2:21:45.800 I am lost when it comes to this issue. From 2:21:45.840 --> 2:21:48.080 what I gather, a judge in Tazewell County has ruled 2:21:48.080 --> 2:21:50.920 twice that the redistricting effort shouldn't proceed, but the state 2:21:50.920 --> 2:21:53.160 government is moving ahead anyway. I also read that state 2:21:53.200 --> 2:21:55.840 democrats think any lawsuit of posing the measure can only 2:21:55.840 --> 2:21:58.040 be filed in Richmond, which is really confusing. Further, the 2:21:58.080 --> 2:22:00.240 state Supreme Court doesn't seem to think this is anhe 2:22:00.280 --> 2:22:03.080 requiring urgency can you explain what's going on. Thank you, 2:22:03.160 --> 2:22:06.000 Dan in Fairfax. Look, it's a fair point. I think 2:22:06.080 --> 2:22:09.720 the the the legis the Democrat The Democrats and the 2:22:09.800 --> 2:22:12.320 legislature continue to believe that the Supreme Court is going 2:22:12.360 --> 2:22:14.720 to overrule this staswell judged like they did the last time. 2:22:17.400 --> 2:22:20.880 But let's just step back. You know, I find this 2:22:20.959 --> 2:22:24.199 whole campaign. I've seen the ads, the ads for Yes 2:22:25.680 --> 2:22:29.520 use every talking point I was using about why there 2:22:29.560 --> 2:22:33.080 shouldn't be re redistricting around, and it was just like confusing, 2:22:33.680 --> 2:22:35.400 Like when you hear an ad or you're like, well, 2:22:35.400 --> 2:22:36.760 I agree with that. I agree with that. You know, 2:22:36.800 --> 2:22:38.440 there shouldn't be politics in this. We got to take 2:22:38.440 --> 2:22:40.160 the politics out of this. That's why you've got to 2:22:40.240 --> 2:22:42.920 vote yes. You're like, wait what And I sit here 2:22:42.920 --> 2:22:46.520 and I'm like, I'm you know, am I being gas 2:22:46.600 --> 2:22:52.600 lit by this ad campaign? Look? Ends, justify the means 2:22:52.640 --> 2:22:58.080 is bad policy, period And ultimately that's what this entire 2:22:58.160 --> 2:23:00.760 effort in Virginia is about. Ends, just find the means. 2:23:01.320 --> 2:23:03.120 We have to do this now because of what they're 2:23:03.160 --> 2:23:04.640 doing in Texas. We have to do this now, and 2:23:04.640 --> 2:23:06.200 what they might do in Florida, what they might do 2:23:06.240 --> 2:23:10.039 in Indiana, what they might do in Missouri. Uh, I 2:23:10.080 --> 2:23:12.200 get it, politics, ain't bean bag. You've heard me say 2:23:12.200 --> 2:23:14.920 it before on the Virginia front. Your right to be confused. 2:23:14.959 --> 2:23:20.920 I'm very confused too. Some of it had you know. 2:23:21.080 --> 2:23:25.680 I Ultimately it feels as if these state supreme courts 2:23:25.879 --> 2:23:28.120 are you know, and what we've seen, the courts are 2:23:28.400 --> 2:23:35.200 ultimately going to side with uh legislatures on this because ultimately, right, 2:23:35.280 --> 2:23:38.680 that's that's who has the supremacy here is the legislature. 2:23:39.120 --> 2:23:40.760 Uh And if this is what they've chosen to do, 2:23:40.840 --> 2:23:44.480 and they're going to the voters. So I suspect that 2:23:44.760 --> 2:23:47.879 this stay you know, I guess it's weird early voting 2:23:47.920 --> 2:23:50.400 starts before the end of the stay, right. I think 2:23:50.400 --> 2:23:52.720 early voting is supposed to begin the six and this 2:23:53.640 --> 2:23:57.920 stay this this, this is supposed to basically be a 2:23:57.680 --> 2:24:00.360 not a statement, sort of an injunction against this that's 2:24:00.360 --> 2:24:08.240 till the eighteenth. I think it's extraordinarily confusing. I have 2:24:08.280 --> 2:24:10.440 a feeling this map's going to pass pretty but this 2:24:10.640 --> 2:24:13.279 amendment to do this is going to pass pretty easily. 2:24:15.400 --> 2:24:17.280 But I'm just I don't think this is a good 2:24:17.320 --> 2:24:22.320 long term look for Democrats. And I you know, I understand, Hey, 2:24:22.640 --> 2:24:24.360 you got to get power now, you'll worry about how 2:24:24.400 --> 2:24:26.320 it looks later. Is the mindset. But again it goes 2:24:26.320 --> 2:24:29.480 back to ends justify the means. And we're watching an 2:24:29.600 --> 2:24:34.200 entire Republican party that's probably going to regret at some 2:24:34.320 --> 2:24:36.640 point being an ends justify the means party. And they've 2:24:36.680 --> 2:24:41.400 been that party in particular since certain certain orange haired 2:24:41.400 --> 2:24:49.680 man strode down an escalator. And it is, it is, 2:24:49.800 --> 2:24:53.720 it is. I can tell you this. I know Spamberger 2:24:53.800 --> 2:24:58.120 is going to regret having to start this partisan and 2:24:58.440 --> 2:25:03.160 it's interesting how she is having you know, some of 2:25:03.160 --> 2:25:07.320 it is just because the legislatures this there, this redistrict effort, 2:25:07.480 --> 2:25:10.600 you know, they vary, the clock is sticking, you know, 2:25:10.720 --> 2:25:12.840 they they literally had to move this in days and 2:25:12.920 --> 2:25:15.920 get it done even before she got sworn in. And 2:25:15.959 --> 2:25:18.800 it has put her more as a partisan actor than 2:25:18.840 --> 2:25:22.160 I think I ever thought she would want to be, 2:25:22.480 --> 2:25:25.560 and look like very curious to see, by the way, 2:25:25.600 --> 2:25:27.920 what her State of the Union response comes across. As 2:25:28.560 --> 2:25:30.880 I think when you're when you're the Democrats, it's who 2:25:30.920 --> 2:25:33.000 i'd pick, right, you want to pick somebody who just 2:25:33.040 --> 2:25:35.520 won and won by a lot from a state that 2:25:35.680 --> 2:25:40.879 used to be you know, and share her profile from 2:25:40.879 --> 2:25:43.400 the national security space. So I I you know, I 2:25:43.440 --> 2:25:50.039 think I get why they picked her. I do, I mean, 2:25:50.120 --> 2:25:53.360 I'm I'm there's two ways about sort of her tenure. 2:25:53.360 --> 2:25:55.360 If you're going to do hardcore politics, better to do 2:25:55.400 --> 2:25:57.840 at the start of your term, and then you moderate 2:25:57.920 --> 2:26:02.120 us the term goes on. On the other hand, it's 2:26:02.160 --> 2:26:04.880 hard to make. You know, this is a first impression 2:26:04.879 --> 2:26:08.959 for a lot of voters in Virginia. But Dan, I'm 2:26:09.000 --> 2:26:11.520 as confused, and the ad campaigns are only more confusing. 2:26:11.560 --> 2:26:15.080 But look, it's gonna pass because this will be a 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:19.400 super small turnout election and we already know those that 2:26:19.480 --> 2:26:23.320 are fired up on any messaging that involves checking Trump 2:26:24.360 --> 2:26:27.280 are gonna win the Battle of Turner. All right, last 2:26:27.320 --> 2:26:34.280 question for this episode comes from Jim Tobahana, Pennsylvania. I 2:26:34.320 --> 2:26:36.279 think you're giving me your age, but I'm not gonna. 2:26:36.640 --> 2:26:38.120 I'm not gonna do it. I don't want to. I 2:26:38.120 --> 2:26:41.240 don't watch you bragging about how much younger you are 2:26:41.240 --> 2:26:44.480 than I am. Jim, all right, just because you got 2:26:44.680 --> 2:26:47.160 you got eight. If you've been on this planet eight 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:48.959 less years than I have, you don't have to rub 2:26:49.000 --> 2:26:49.560 it in my face. 2:26:50.720 --> 2:26:50.840 Uh. 2:26:51.280 --> 2:26:54.840 Anyway, your question, does international diplomacy have a greater long 2:26:54.920 --> 2:26:57.000 term impact on legacy Trump, with his focus on the 2:26:57.000 --> 2:26:59.280 second term so much abroad, I don't see how this 2:26:59.320 --> 2:27:01.760 positively impact his legacy. Putting his name on statues the 2:27:01.800 --> 2:27:06.000 Kennedy Center giving seems like a short term ego boost 2:27:06.000 --> 2:27:09.360 for him, band aid that the next administration can reverse. Ultimately, 2:27:09.360 --> 2:27:11.800 long term legacy seems like strengthen in the US with 2:27:11.879 --> 2:27:14.880 a focus domestically, with an emphasis on improving his approval rating. 2:27:15.120 --> 2:27:17.400 Focusing on more of a bipartisan agenda would be the 2:27:17.400 --> 2:27:20.480 biggest way to improve as a long term legacy. Am 2:27:20.520 --> 2:27:23.279 I right? If prices continue to soar in the behavior 2:27:23.280 --> 2:27:26.000 of his cabinet, no Marf k Junior Agency's ice, he's 2:27:26.040 --> 2:27:29.440 diminishing his own legacy. Jim, you're you know you're doing 2:27:29.879 --> 2:27:32.680 You're you're applying something that I used to have to 2:27:32.720 --> 2:27:35.120 ban during my meet the press days during our staff 2:27:35.160 --> 2:27:38.880 in There'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop 2:27:38.959 --> 2:27:41.480 trying to use logic with me. You know, in the 2:27:41.480 --> 2:27:45.039 Trump era we banned logic. Jim. Everything you're saying is 2:27:45.080 --> 2:27:49.760 so logical. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, right George W. 2:27:49.840 --> 2:27:51.320 Bush did that. Right, He's like, you know what, I'm 2:27:51.320 --> 2:27:53.320 gonna focus on pep bar. By the end, I realized 2:27:53.320 --> 2:27:55.160 that Rack was gonna be a terrible legacy all this stuff, 2:27:55.400 --> 2:27:57.520 but he's still you know, there were some things he 2:27:57.560 --> 2:28:01.200 did that that were about his legacy. And guess what 2:28:01.600 --> 2:28:04.120 one of the most positive legacies he has is what 2:28:04.240 --> 2:28:08.760 he's done in helping fund cures for AIDS in Africa 2:28:09.600 --> 2:28:12.680 and what the pep far program has done. I know 2:28:12.760 --> 2:28:15.160 that Elon Musk and that dose people. I have been 2:28:15.160 --> 2:28:19.320 trying to destroy that last positive legacy of the Bush administration. 2:28:22.879 --> 2:28:25.320 But you know this goes back to I, don't you know, 2:28:26.160 --> 2:28:27.280 Trump's the first guy. 2:28:28.240 --> 2:28:28.440 You know. 2:28:28.440 --> 2:28:34.680 I used to do these exit interviews with retiring members 2:28:34.680 --> 2:28:37.840 of Congress when I when I had my multiple when 2:28:37.840 --> 2:28:41.600 I with with the Daily Rundown and with then I 2:28:41.640 --> 2:28:44.240 would eventually change it to Meet the Press Daily and 2:28:44.280 --> 2:28:46.320 Meet the Press now. And I used to do these 2:28:46.760 --> 2:28:50.320 exit interviews with retiring members both sides of the aisle 2:28:50.320 --> 2:28:51.720 and get as many of them that would sit down, 2:28:52.120 --> 2:28:54.520 and they were really legacy questions, and you know, but 2:28:54.600 --> 2:28:56.640 I also wanted to know, like you know, when was 2:28:56.640 --> 2:28:58.320 the first time you wanted to run for office? And 2:28:58.360 --> 2:29:00.840 why do you want to run? Things like that? You know, 2:29:01.000 --> 2:29:03.960 because I've done these sort of candidate interviews going back 2:29:04.480 --> 2:29:07.160 thirty five years now where people want to run for 2:29:07.200 --> 2:29:09.680 office the first time, you know, back at the hotline, 2:29:09.680 --> 2:29:12.280 we used to interview these candidates Cook Report, and we 2:29:12.400 --> 2:29:15.080 used to you know, piggyback on the Cook Report. This 2:29:15.160 --> 2:29:19.800 is what they They do this more strenuously than we 2:29:19.840 --> 2:29:24.760 did a hotline back in the day. And one of 2:29:24.760 --> 2:29:28.720 the things that I that I've learned from those interviews 2:29:28.760 --> 2:29:31.320 over the years is that I used to say, you know, 2:29:31.360 --> 2:29:34.720 it always made me feel better about the democracy because everybody, 2:29:35.800 --> 2:29:37.320 whether they were, no matter where they were on the 2:29:37.320 --> 2:29:43.320 political spectrum hard left, center, left, hard right, center, right, independent, 2:29:43.360 --> 2:29:46.760 whatever you wanted to put it, they all ran for 2:29:46.840 --> 2:29:51.120 office on for one thing. There was always something they wanted. 2:29:51.560 --> 2:29:55.800 There was the initial trigger. You know. I remember talking 2:29:55.800 --> 2:29:58.039 to one commresceman, I said, so, what got you involved 2:29:58.040 --> 2:30:00.400 in Congress? His first office was on the school He 2:30:00.480 --> 2:30:03.640 was mad that they drew drew the lines, drew his 2:30:03.760 --> 2:30:05.959 kid out of a certain school district. I'm gonna go 2:30:05.959 --> 2:30:07.920 on the school board and he admitted, he goes. Once 2:30:07.920 --> 2:30:09.160 I got on the school board, I realized they had 2:30:09.200 --> 2:30:11.160 nothing to do with the lines. It was somebody else, 2:30:11.280 --> 2:30:15.600 he goes. But but I got involved and and and suddenly, 2:30:15.640 --> 2:30:18.400 he said, the more he learned about government and how 2:30:18.440 --> 2:30:24.640 it worked, the more interested he got. So Donald Trump's 2:30:24.680 --> 2:30:29.199 one of the few people to successfully gain office whose 2:30:29.480 --> 2:30:36.400 simple motivation seemed to be sort of the same motivation 2:30:36.520 --> 2:30:40.680 somebody has to go streaking on a football field. They 2:30:40.720 --> 2:30:42.920 just wanted to be noticed, right. They just wanted to, 2:30:44.200 --> 2:30:47.360 you know, be famous. They wanted more people to have 2:30:47.560 --> 2:30:51.680 to respect them. It's a weird motivation. But he wasn't 2:30:51.680 --> 2:30:55.600 motivated because he's got an issue he cares the most about. 2:30:55.760 --> 2:30:58.760 He was maybe he has a daddy. There's plenty of 2:30:58.920 --> 2:31:02.000 We've had a handful of presidents and presidential candidates who 2:31:02.000 --> 2:31:04.840 I think got involved in politics as there they felt 2:31:04.879 --> 2:31:08.280 like it was the only way to please their dad, 2:31:08.840 --> 2:31:11.320 you know, boys said, there's a lot of politics is 2:31:11.360 --> 2:31:15.480 filled with presidents are filled or it's amazing how many 2:31:15.480 --> 2:31:19.360 of our presidents have daddy issues one way or the other, 2:31:19.520 --> 2:31:27.520 including this one, by the way. But I don't think 2:31:27.560 --> 2:31:32.080 he really cares, you know, when you when you're so 2:31:32.160 --> 2:31:34.800 worried about putting your name on stuff, it shows you 2:31:34.840 --> 2:31:39.920 that you really don't care about Like the Institute of 2:31:39.959 --> 2:31:42.640 Peace was never his idea. He just wanted to slap 2:31:42.640 --> 2:31:44.480 his name on it because it uses the word peace. 2:31:45.520 --> 2:31:48.400 The Kennedy Center isn't his idea, but he wants to 2:31:48.400 --> 2:31:50.120 slap his name on it because he's afraid his name 2:31:50.160 --> 2:31:54.240 is going to disappear. You know, He's only a real 2:31:54.320 --> 2:31:57.080 legacy is going to be that ballroom in the White House, right, 2:31:57.160 --> 2:31:59.560 And I think he thinks, hey, they still call the 2:31:59.600 --> 2:32:02.800 balcony Truman's balcony, so hopefully they'll always have to call 2:32:02.879 --> 2:32:07.240 you know, the ballroom will always be the Trump ballroom. 2:32:07.400 --> 2:32:11.160 Well he might get that, and there'll be some Donald. 2:32:11.640 --> 2:32:15.600 There'll be some Donald J. Trump elementary schools, and I 2:32:15.959 --> 2:32:19.080 you know, you know, we know this, it will be. 2:32:22.120 --> 2:32:24.680 But I don't think he's got an issue. He If 2:32:24.680 --> 2:32:26.880 he cared about one issue throughout his entire career, it was, 2:32:27.040 --> 2:32:31.200 you know, his belief in tariffs. But even that, I 2:32:31.240 --> 2:32:33.520 don't think he fully understood why he believed in tariffs 2:32:33.520 --> 2:32:37.320 other than he was trying to come up with a 2:32:37.400 --> 2:32:40.160 talking point to insert himself into a political conversation back 2:32:40.160 --> 2:32:46.160 in the late eighties. So again, to go back to 2:32:46.200 --> 2:32:48.760 your question, Jim, everything about him makes sense, But you're 2:32:49.120 --> 2:32:54.000 that that's not how Trump's wired. It's just not how 2:32:54.000 --> 2:32:57.160 he's wired. You know, you're you're one hundred percent right 2:32:57.200 --> 2:33:02.120 in these things. By the way I've gone, we've gone 2:33:02.160 --> 2:33:05.080 now a couple hours, and I didn't get to and 2:33:05.080 --> 2:33:06.840 I'm going to save this for Wednesday, but we're going 2:33:06.920 --> 2:33:08.879 to do I'm going to give you. I'll give you 2:33:08.920 --> 2:33:15.280 this hint now, the Christy Nomes Senate campaign. That's a 2:33:15.440 --> 2:33:19.320 fascinating exit ramp that the Trump White House is trying 2:33:19.320 --> 2:33:23.840 to come up with to get rid of Nome. Fascinating situation. Also, 2:33:23.879 --> 2:33:26.959 want to get into the Maha moms and how yet 2:33:27.040 --> 2:33:31.320 another monsanto, the first major donation they'd ever given to Trump. 2:33:31.400 --> 2:33:33.959 Let's just say they reminded Trump of that. That's why 2:33:33.959 --> 2:33:36.640 they got the executive order that they got. But those 2:33:36.720 --> 2:33:39.120 Maha Moms, We're going to get into that too on Wednesday. 2:33:39.160 --> 2:33:41.840 So look, it was a hugely busy weekend. That last 2:33:41.879 --> 2:33:44.160 question reminded me of a couple other issues. I didn't 2:33:44.160 --> 2:33:47.640 get to get to. Maha moms, and Nome for South 2:33:47.720 --> 2:33:52.199 Dakota Centate where two of them. But I'm not gonna 2:33:52.959 --> 2:33:56.280 I'm just going to leave that as a tease for 2:33:56.360 --> 2:33:59.600 the next episode in forty eight hours. Thanks for listening. 2:33:59.640 --> 2:34:02.959 By the way, we're having some of our you guys 2:34:02.959 --> 2:34:05.400 have been great. I know there's some new subscribers out there, 2:34:05.760 --> 2:34:08.720 some new devots. I appreciate having you. How do I 2:34:08.720 --> 2:34:11.800 know new Because we keep growing and things are going well. 2:34:12.400 --> 2:34:15.040 I can tell because I now got more people telling 2:34:15.080 --> 2:34:18.360 me hey, I've got fewer people coming up to me 2:34:18.440 --> 2:34:21.480 saying hey, I miss you. What are you doing now? 2:34:21.879 --> 2:34:23.959 Now it's like, hey, I miss you over there, but 2:34:24.000 --> 2:34:27.879 I really like what you're doing now. So that's all 2:34:27.920 --> 2:34:31.400 because you guys are liking, You're subscribing, word of mouth, 2:34:31.560 --> 2:34:35.080 all of those things. And so let's just say I 2:34:35.080 --> 2:34:40.359 appreciate it because it's you know, this is an entrepreneurial business, 2:34:40.360 --> 2:34:43.680 and it is credibility has earned one listener and one 2:34:43.760 --> 2:34:47.880 viewer at a time, and this growth tells me that 2:34:47.959 --> 2:34:51.640 you guys are help are expressed or saying that I'm 2:34:51.640 --> 2:34:53.720 earning it with you. So thank you, and with that, 2:34:53.760 --> 2:34:59.200 I'll see you A forty eight dollars