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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Monday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the check podcast. If you are waking up in the

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Speaker 1: Assella Corridor, I hope you don't have a foot of

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Speaker 1: snow outside those of us on the southern end of

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Speaker 1: the Slate Corridor or breathing a sigh of relief those

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Speaker 1: of you in New York that might be another story,

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Speaker 1: But for those of us that make content, it means

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Speaker 1: you have more time bundled up in your house or

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Speaker 1: you have to get out put the AirPods in. So

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Speaker 1: I hope I can be a useful distraction while you're shoveling, sweeping,

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Speaker 1: whatever you may be doing this morning. Look, it's a

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Speaker 1: packed episode. As you know. I did a quick sort

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Speaker 1: of emergency response as we got the big tariff ruling,

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Speaker 1: and this is just such a monumental moment in the

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Speaker 1: Trump presidency. It's very well, we look back, this is

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the end. We may look back and

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Speaker 1: say Liberation Day was sort of when it all actually

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Speaker 1: was starting to come to an end. I'll get to

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Speaker 1: that point in a minute, but let me give you

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Speaker 1: a rundown of everything we're going to do. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to unpacked all things tariff, because look, an important moment,

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Speaker 1: the democracy, the guard rails, separations, like all of the

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Speaker 1: features of this republic blossomed a bit. So that's that.

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Speaker 1: And then you have a president responding as if he

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Speaker 1: is now his goal is to destroy his own party

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Speaker 1: in the midterms and do whatever it takes to help

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Speaker 1: the Democrats, because his initial response on this is politically catastrophic.

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Speaker 1: But hey, by the time you're listening to this, we

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Speaker 1: also could be launching a new over the ron because

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Speaker 1: oh guess what, before the tariff ruling, we still have

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Speaker 1: the largest build up in the Middle East of military

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Speaker 1: assets since the start of the Iraq War. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: What are we up to? Congress still is not being told.

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Speaker 1: Is this about the nuclear program? Is this about negotiation?

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Speaker 1: Is this about regiem change? The president who loves not

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Speaker 1: to explain his rationales, is I think underestimating how precarious

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Speaker 1: of a position he might be in here. But we'll see,

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Speaker 1: and who knows. Maybe he's going to I mean, my goodness,

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Speaker 1: the State of the Union on Tuesday? Is he going

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Speaker 1: to announce that the missiles are dropping as he begins

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Speaker 1: to State of the Union? Does he want to step

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Speaker 1: on his own State of the Union? Is that his goal?

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Speaker 1: Does he want to announce something? Does he want does

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Speaker 1: he not want the specific does he have not maybe

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have much to say beyond or does he

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Speaker 1: rant and rave about the tariffs and complain about that?

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Speaker 1: Does he ask Congress for some help on this? So

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Speaker 1: we are in an incredibly precarious moment of his presidency,

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Speaker 1: though to say it's the most precarious is sort of

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Speaker 1: how do you pick right? We kind of live in

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Speaker 1: a constant state of turmoil and instability ever since he

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Speaker 1: came down that escalator. So we are in one of

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Speaker 1: those moments, massive economic instability. Small business is still trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what comes now. But we got some

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Speaker 1: important institutional pushback on Trump's attempts to usurp power from Congress.

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Speaker 1: So again, I'm gonna get to all that. Let me

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Speaker 1: give you, like I said, a quick rundown, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to break down. We got seven of the nine Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justices felt like they had to express their own

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Speaker 1: view as to why they came to the decision. They

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Speaker 1: came seven of the nine. The only two justices not

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Speaker 1: to write their own separate either concurrence or dissent, Samuel

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Speaker 1: Alito and Sonya Soda mayor everybody else had something to say,

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Speaker 1: with the Neil Gorsuch concurring opinion being the most fascinating

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Speaker 1: of all of them. But we're going to get into that.

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Speaker 1: There's a brand new and ABC News poll out that

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Speaker 1: shows incredibly bad news for the President and Republicans. But

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Speaker 1: guess what doesn't show much good news for the Democrats.

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Speaker 1: I will get to that in a moment. I spent

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Speaker 1: part of my weekend at the Principal's First Conference at

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Speaker 1: the Gaylord Hotel in suburban Maryland outside of DC. They've built.

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Speaker 1: This is their six six year gathering. It was an

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Speaker 1: impressive event it gave. I had a ton of in

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Speaker 1: moderator panel with Pat McCrory, Bill Crystal, and another member

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Speaker 1: of the Principal's First organization. And because it really is

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Speaker 1: a gathering of center rights, sort of ex Republicans lost

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Speaker 1: in dependence, a lot of military veterans and even a

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Speaker 1: few active duty people I met there who feel politically

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Speaker 1: lost but are alarmed by what's happened in this current

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Speaker 1: moment inside the Republican Party. So it was an interesting

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Speaker 1: conversation and I've I was moderating some interesting tension. Let's

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Speaker 1: just say Pat McCrory and Bill Crystal, well they both

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Speaker 1: have an agreement about Trump. They weren't unnecessarily on the

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Speaker 1: same page of what comes next and how to do this?

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Speaker 1: And I think that this is this is the debate

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Speaker 1: that many non you know, sort of independence and anti

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Speaker 1: Trump Republicans are having is do you try to save

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party? Do you try to start something new?

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Speaker 1: Do you try to get behind an independent or do

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Speaker 1: you make common cause with the Democrats temporarily? That debate

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Speaker 1: is a very lively discussion inside this group. I found

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Speaker 1: it to be shall we say, intellectual nourishing might be

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Speaker 1: a way to put it. Meanwhile, Team USA, right, how

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Speaker 1: do I I want to get to that? That's very exciting,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to over I'm going to overanalyze the

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Speaker 1: period of time. We haven't won the Olympic hockey goal

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Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty. What's interesting is that in many ways

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Speaker 1: America in nineteen eighty, that in that February, January, February

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Speaker 1: and March period, that first quarter of the year nineteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: we were in a meles We were isolated, We felt

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Speaker 1: isolated from the world. We aroan had our hostages, we

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Speaker 1: were a divided politically in a sort of beginning of

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Speaker 1: a political depression. Sounds familiar, doesn't right, By the way,

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Speaker 1: we had an unpopular president, and we have an unpopular president.

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Speaker 1: We have all of this, so and that Olympic gold

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Speaker 1: sort of was the beginning of you know, and we

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Speaker 1: ended up on a good sort of twenty year run,

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Speaker 1: you know, with a few ups and downs, but a

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Speaker 1: nice twenty year run. Arguably starting with that Olympic gold

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Speaker 1: all the way until nine to eleven. When you think

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Speaker 1: about america role in the world, all of those things,

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Speaker 1: end of the Cold War, et cetera, et cetera. So

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe this is a good omen. I choose

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Speaker 1: to believe it is a good open on that front. So,

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Speaker 1: and my conversation today is with filmmaker Gita Ganderbeer. She

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Speaker 1: is the director and producer behind an incredible documentary that

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Speaker 1: is on Netflix at the moment called The Perfect Neighbor.

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Speaker 1: It is unbelievable. It is unique technically only uses bodycam.

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Speaker 1: Basically it's majority bodycam footage. But I think it it.

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Speaker 2: Is the.

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Speaker 1: In this day and age where we have so much

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Speaker 1: distrust of the you know, if this is just raw footage,

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Speaker 1: and it allows you, as the consumer of this documentary

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Speaker 1: to see for yourself what's happening in real time, to

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Speaker 1: see what appears to be a racist neighbor sort of viewing,

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Speaker 1: you know, and somebody who's broken, who's mentally having a breakdown,

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Speaker 1: somehow raised or has a core racism in her, is

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Speaker 1: whipped up by fear and grievance and then ends up

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Speaker 1: killing somebody through through her own front door. She just

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Speaker 1: a fellow neighbor. It's not an easy watch, but it's

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Speaker 1: important watch and I think you'll enjoy this conversation with Gita.

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Speaker 1: So with that, let's unpack what the Supreme Court just did,

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Speaker 1: because after you know, our guardrails are battered, they're bruised,

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Speaker 1: but as we found out Friday, they still exist in

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Speaker 1: this constitutional republic, and frankly, the results not surprising. You know,

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Speaker 1: I got started with this relaunch of the check podcast.

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Speaker 1: It was in April, about a week before so called

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Speaker 1: liberation debt. And if you want to go back to

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Speaker 1: those earlier episodes to fact check me on this, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you I said, Look, these are not going

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Speaker 1: to be seen as constitutional. These will not survive a

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Speaker 1: court challenge. The only question is whether this ends up

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Speaker 1: costing all of us more money. Right, it's already cost

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Speaker 1: consumers money. Now there's going to be people looking for

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Speaker 1: their refund. And the irony is that the president is

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Speaker 1: now going to accelerate our debt and deficit in ways

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Speaker 1: that we already knew. He didn't really care about the

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Speaker 1: national debt or the deficit. Again, this is a guy

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Speaker 1: who's always borrowed other people's money, used it for himself,

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Speaker 1: declared bankruptcy, and walked away. Right, He's done it many,

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Speaker 1: many times, so of course he's going to do it

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Speaker 1: with the US government. He doesn't care about those things.

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Speaker 1: He just doesn't sort of see it. And he certainly has.

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Speaker 1: If he took basic macro and microeconomics in college, he

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Speaker 1: clearly didn't absorb anything with what he learned. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this has been an economic disaster for the country. It

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Speaker 1: has been a terrible for global leadership. And again, we

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Speaker 1: I think may look back that this is in sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, I'm reminded of George W. Bush right

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Speaker 1: after he wins his second term and he pursues an

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Speaker 1: unpopular policy of privatizing social security just you know, blew

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Speaker 1: up in a faith, wanted to do immigration that wasn't

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Speaker 1: popular inside his own party, and eventually he had approval

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Speaker 1: rating somewhere in the mid ti thirties, and you had

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Speaker 1: a Democratic streep in that midterm of his second term,

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Speaker 1: and then the biggest Democratic essentially the biggest Democratic victory

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Speaker 1: in a presidential race, with the Democratic cannon getting over

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Speaker 1: fifty percent for the first time since Jimmy Carter. And

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Speaker 1: then before that LBJ. So that's what this sort of

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Speaker 1: and you know in the moment, you didn't quite know

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Speaker 1: when Bush was just never was had hit unrecoverable status

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Speaker 1: really until the election itself. So you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to declare Trump dead. He's going to be president

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Speaker 1: for another two and a half years. He can make

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Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. How he responds to this moment

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Speaker 1: will tell us whether his political demise will get accelerated

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Speaker 1: or not. And I would say the first seventy two

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Speaker 1: hours his response tells me he wants you know, he

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Speaker 1: plans on going down with the ship here, and he

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Speaker 1: may burn his party down with it. So look, there

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Speaker 1: was a reason why I was pretty confident that these

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Speaker 1: tariffs were never going to be seen as legal, because

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Speaker 1: tariffs are taxes, and taxes live in Article one. Simple

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Speaker 1: as that. I mean, it was basically what Robert said,

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Speaker 1: this is this is sort of high school constitutional law. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is not even law school constitutional law. So when

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Speaker 1: you try to run a sweeping global tariff regime through

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Speaker 1: a nineteen seventy seven emergency statute that never mentions the

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Speaker 1: word tariff, you're taking a pretty big legal risk. Pretty

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Speaker 1: much open and shut case rightly. The only surprise to

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Speaker 1: me was that the ruling was six to three in

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Speaker 1: the court, not seven to two. It should have been

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Speaker 1: at nine zero. But I expected Alito and Thomas to

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Speaker 1: be partisans in here. They've never been serious jurists. Maybe

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Speaker 1: they were serious jurists, but not in the last ten

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Speaker 1: or fifteen years have they been serious. They've been always

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Speaker 1: take thief. What they believe is the own the Libs

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Speaker 1: partisan right. Never may never embarrass your own party in

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Speaker 1: any way. Anyway, The point is is that they they've

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Speaker 1: stopped being legal guys a long time ago. But I

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Speaker 1: thought both Corsa and Kavanaugh had come in here so mild.

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Speaker 1: The real surprise to me is that Kavanaugh ended up

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Speaker 1: in the descent on here, and it was interesting. He

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Speaker 1: of course had to write his own He wrote the

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Speaker 1: overall descent and he's hiding behind foreign policy, which of

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Speaker 1: all the weak arguments the Trump lawyers were making, it

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Speaker 1: was the strongest of the weak arguments. Was saying, well,

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Speaker 1: this is part of foreign policy, and a president has

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Speaker 1: to conduct foreign policy. Still, at its core, this was

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Speaker 1: not about trade. This was about who governs, who's in

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Speaker 1: charge of the purse in the United States of America.

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Speaker 1: So the Court ruled six to three that the International

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Speaker 1: Emergency Economic Powers AIPA reminds me of the Simpsons movie

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Speaker 1: ep ba yepa, this is ai ba IPA. Sorry, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't help myself. So it does not authorize the president

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Speaker 1: to impose sweeping global tariffs. Six justices ended up in

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Speaker 1: the majority, three dissenters. But here's what matters. There were

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Speaker 1: seven opinions. Seven. Okay, that tells you something. This Court

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Speaker 1: agreed on the result, but not on the reasoning. Chief

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Speaker 1: Justice Roberts wrote the controlling opinion. His argument was institutional, straightforward.

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Speaker 1: Regulate importation does not equal impost tariffs. Simple as that

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Speaker 1: Congress knows how to say duties, Congress knows how to

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Speaker 1: say tariffs. It did not say either of those two

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Speaker 1: words in the i EPA legislation. Tariffs are taxation. Taxation

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Speaker 1: belongs to Congress. Hard stop. Then there's the there there's

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Speaker 1: the concurring opinion that I would want all of my

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Speaker 1: wanta be law school folks. And you know I always

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Speaker 1: joke I don't play a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but I have been playing one on TV for a

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Speaker 1: long time. I am I'd like to think I have

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Speaker 1: gotten sort of a pretty decent legal education over the

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Speaker 1: last thirty years, as I love reading me some good

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court opinions or just sense at times, because you

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Speaker 1: learn a lot about the politics of the court when

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Speaker 1: you do. And he wrote separately, and he leaned hard

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Speaker 1: into what's known as the major Questions doctrine. And then

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Speaker 1: he also called out pretty much five of his colleagues,

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Speaker 1: by the way, kind of amusing, but still before we

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Speaker 1: get to what he called him out on, he was

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Speaker 1: tackling major Questions, right, which is the idea that when

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Speaker 1: a president claims extraordinary economic power, Congress must speak clearly.

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Speaker 1: And here's where it gets interesting, or so it's called

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Speaker 1: out all of his colleagues, first the liberals for what

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Speaker 1: he described frankly as a flip flop, because he basically said, hey,

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Speaker 1: you opposed this idea of the major questions when it

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Speaker 1: limited democratic administrations, in particular Biden on issues involving COVID

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Speaker 1: in the workplace, COVID mandates, and the student loan issue.

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Speaker 1: But now you're using the same structural instinct. Justice Kagan,

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Speaker 1: she was joined by Sotomayor, agreed with the outcome. But

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Speaker 1: rejected the idea this was a major question issue. She

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Speaker 1: said that the ordinary statutory interpretation was enough. Essentially, she

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Speaker 1: was trying to defend the fact that she was not

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Speaker 1: flip popping here. She was trying to disaggregate the rationale

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Speaker 1: she used to be in favor of Biden using emergency

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Speaker 1: powers to do the student loan cuts, and she was

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Speaker 1: trying to essentially separate it from her what appears to

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Speaker 1: be literally the opposite point of view, which to somebody

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Speaker 1: with no skin in the game, you know, the same way.

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Speaker 1: It looks like robertson excuse me, Thomas and Alito were

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Speaker 1: partisans here. Essentially, of course, is saying he said, hey,

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Speaker 1: looks like Kagan, So to my own Jackson essentially have

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Speaker 1: been partisan here as well. Then you have Justice Brown Jackson.

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Speaker 1: She leaned into legislative history, saying Congress never intended AEPA

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Speaker 1: to become a tariff machine, and therefore that's why she

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Speaker 1: came to the same conclusion as roberts On the other side,

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Speaker 1: Justice Kavanaugh wrote the principal dissent in his argument foreign

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Speaker 1: affairs is different. He saw this as part of foreign affairs.

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Speaker 1: So the president traditionally has brought her authority here and

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Speaker 1: major questions doctrines shouldn't apply in the same way in

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Speaker 1: trade and diplomacy. Then Justice Thomas went even further, arguing

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Speaker 1: Congress can delegate tariff authority broadly. He basically said, nope,

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Speaker 1: these emergency powers delegated it all away, and the President

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Speaker 1: was perfectly within his constitutional rights to do all of this.

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Speaker 1: So to say this was it your typical liberal conservative

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Speaker 1: split is an understated It was a structural split, and

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Speaker 1: that matters. And by the way, just a little history

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Speaker 1: lesson here, because I was curious, how often have we

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Speaker 1: had seven of the nine justices all write their own

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Speaker 1: either supporting opinions or dissent. Well, in nineteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: during the Pentagon Paper's case New York Times versus the

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Speaker 1: United States, all nine justices wrote their own opinion. They

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Speaker 1: agreed on the ruling, but they did not agree on

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Speaker 1: how they got there right. They went nine nothing, but

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Speaker 1: they ended up having individual opinions explaining that away a

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Speaker 1: case that effectively struck down all existing death penalty laws

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Furman versus Georgia nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: same thing, All nine justices wrote their own rationales for

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Speaker 1: how they got to their opinion, and then of course

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Speaker 1: dread Scott, the infamous dread Scott decision, one of the

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Speaker 1: worst in the history of the Supreme Court, also featured

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Speaker 1: all nine justices in the last few decades. Seven opinions

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Speaker 1: usually signal a massive turf war between the different wings

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Speaker 1: of the Court. And as I've told you, there's three

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Speaker 1: distinct wings of the court, okay, and I think Gorcious

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Speaker 1: and Kavanaugh are sort of somewhere in between the two

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Speaker 1: of the conservative wings. Right, you have sort of a

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Speaker 1: institutionalist conservative wing which is anchored by Roberts and Barrett.

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Speaker 1: Kavanaugh mostly is with them on these institutional rulings. In

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Speaker 1: this case it was Gorsich, not Kavanaugh. Thomas and Alito

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Speaker 1: are usually in the more on the on the further

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Speaker 1: further the right spectrum, a little more in favor of

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Speaker 1: even stronger executive authority essentially, but a bit more partisan,

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Speaker 1: you know. There takes seem to be grounded in well,

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Speaker 1: what ruling do we want to get to, and then

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Speaker 1: they find a rationale to get there. And then of

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Speaker 1: course you have the three liberals that rarely do they

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Speaker 1: do they break ranks. So it is a. I think

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Speaker 1: a court that is split more in three than it

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Speaker 1: is in two, because that's what Donald Trump does, right.

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Speaker 1: He has divided his own party in that case, and

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Speaker 1: you see that divide on on on the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: So I think that is there a is there is

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Speaker 1: there that? Or is this a case where they all

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Speaker 1: wanted to explain their own rationale? And I think it

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Speaker 1: is clear that they really didn't agree on they you know,

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Speaker 1: you had a strong majority agree that the president overstepped

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Speaker 1: his constitutional overstepped his constitutional authority, but they just disagreed

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Speaker 1: on exactly what how he overstepped that authority. Still I

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Speaker 1: can't help but when you when you look at it,

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Speaker 1: sort of seven responses like that, it really is sort

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Speaker 1: of it reminds me of the coalition against Trump in general, right,

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Speaker 1: which is there's a large majority of the country, say

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Speaker 1: fifty five sixty percent that don't like how Trump governs,

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Speaker 1: the general direction that Trump is taking on. This episode

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Speaker 1: But they don't all agree that as to on the

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Speaker 1: same things as to what he's doing right, there are

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Speaker 1: some that don't like what Trump's doing but maybe like

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Speaker 1: what he's doing in immigration. There are some that may

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Speaker 1: be like what he's doing in immigration, but don't like

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Speaker 1: what he's doing on tariffs. But it is it does

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Speaker 1: sort of the fragmented court knows that Trump is an

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Speaker 1: unconstitutional president and probably the most abuse abusive of the

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Speaker 1: constitution of any president we've had, going even Nixon included.

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Speaker 1: And yet right there you can't get a coherent, singular

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Speaker 1: message to sort of take them on, and even in

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Speaker 1: the legal community, you can't do that. Now there's Trump's response,

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Speaker 1: And as I said on Friday, before knowing Trump's response,

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Speaker 1: I said, he's the wild card here. There was a

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Speaker 1: real opportunity right this This economy sucks, people don't like it,

429
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: and you know, these tariffs have been attacked on consumers.

430
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: It is served as inflationary. In fact, earlier, just before

431
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: this tarif ruling came out, we got news the economic

432
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: growth stagnated massively in the fourth quarter, right under one

433
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 1: and a half percent growth, which is just terrible. Anything

434
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: under two doesn't even allow us to sort of keep

435
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: up with inflation. That is not good, and it is

436
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: part of it is attributed to the shutdown, but there

437
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: also has been this continued, you know, as we're seeing,

438
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: you know, for about six months many businesses tried actually

439
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: not to pass on the cost of the tariffs that

440
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: ended in the last quarter and the begin and we've

441
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: seen in January a lot of price spikes in particular,

442
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: all of that has gone away. And that's so so ironically,

443
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: you know, the best thing that could have happened to

444
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: the Congressional Republicans was for these tariffs to be viewed

445
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: as unconstitutional. That's if Trump would go along and accept

446
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: the premise that the Supreme Court is correct here. That's

447
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: not what he's doing. And this is what should make

448
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: all of us pause here.

449
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 4: Man.

450
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: The President didn't respond by arguing on the merits. He

451
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: didn't argue about the statutory interpretation. He didn't respond by

452
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: seeing the court misread history. He responded by doing what

453
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: he does best, attacking his own appointees for simply being disloyal.

454
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: And it is a reminder, right if we did not

455
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: have lifetime appointment to Supreme Court. He tried to fire Gorsage,

456
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: he tried to fire Barrett, just like he's doing with

457
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: the Fed. So just keep that in mind. The bounders

458
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: knew that. I mean, look, none of us love this

459
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: lifetime appointment business. And maybe we should have age limits,

460
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: and there's some ways to end it. But what you

461
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: cannot have as an executive having the ability to fire

462
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: somebody in another branch of government. And obviously our founders

463
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: knew that, and that's why it's important to give Supreme

464
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: Court justices this. So here he is personally attack Neil

465
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: Gorsuch and Amy Cony Barrett. Neil Gorsuch, who was voted

466
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: with Trump quite a bit. In fact, he's rarely in

467
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: that institutional Every once in a while he surprises you.

468
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: I was pretty convinced he'd be with the seven to

469
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 1: two majority, Like I said, the surprise for me was capital.

470
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: But Trump did the usual personalization, right, he said, this

471
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: was an embarrassment to their families. So he's attacking the

472
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: families of Neil Gorsuch and Amy Coney Barr. And we

473
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: know when Trump does this, it does it does you

474
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: know all of a sudden there are mentally unstable people

475
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: out there who start doxing people start going after it is.

476
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: It is terrible what he does, and it's designed as

477
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: a chilling effect, right, what you know, he goes after

478
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: anybody that was supposedly that he viewed as on his side,

479
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: and when they break ranks, he he goes after him

480
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: in nasty ways because he's trying to prevent it from

481
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: happening again. He's afraid it's going to get contagious. But

482
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: here's the thing, more and more people, more and more Republicans.

483
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: I think this is why I think this could be

484
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: such an important moment that the breaking points don't happen.

485
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: The breaking points are realized six months after that breaking

486
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: point happens, right, And so you know, if we go

487
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: on and I promise you Democrats sweep the midterms, we'll say, Okay,

488
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: this thing started collapsing. And it really sort of took

489
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: another nose dive with the Supreme Court ruling and then

490
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: his just unhinged response to it. And look, we're all

491
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: kind of numb to this. Oh, just another day at

492
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: the office. He's just attacking members Supreme Court. He also

493
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: thinks there's some conspiracy blaming foreign influence. You have the

494
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: conspiracy of these foreigners right there infiltrating the Supreme Court.

495
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: This is some foreign influence campaign on Justices Gorsach and

496
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: amy Cony. Barrett. Let's take it all the way through.

497
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: Tell me how that works, mister President. Tell me how

498
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: there's foreign influence on Neil Gorsich. Tell me how there's

499
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: foreign influence on John Roberts. You know you can't. You're

500
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: gonna throw this out there. Give me some details. Show

501
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: your proof. I'm sure your proof is with the with

502
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: the with all the stuff you found out during when

503
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: you when you swore that you had evidence that Barack

504
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: Obama wasn't born in the United States. I'm sure that

505
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: evidence is in the same place at the evidence of

506
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: of that's somehow foreign interest swayed Neil Gorsach and Amy

507
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: Cony Barrett. Show your evidence. You don't do that. What

508
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: you do is you count on your lapdog supporters to

509
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: just take your accusation and run with it, and you

510
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: count on algorithms to amplify it and make it seem

511
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: like a legitimate talking point. It's disgusting, it's awful, and yeah,

512
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: we already have Look, another person came after you, mister

513
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: President at mar A Lago. All right, stop this. The

514
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: more you do this stuff, the more you put everybody

515
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: at risk physically. You're putting the lives in dangers of

516
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: two Supreme Court justices that you appointed, You appointed these people,

517
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: and you're attacking them and attacking their families. It's outrageous

518
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: and it's awful. And the again, right, you have an

519
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: entire Republican party who just doesn't respond to this anymore.

520
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: I understand rationally why they don't. Doesn't get him anywhere,

521
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: just causes more problems for them, And it's all sort

522
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: of self preservation is why you don't speak out. But folks,

523
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: he is super weak. This is the absolute definition of

524
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: an emperor with no clothes, and every day we keep

525
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: finding out how little he's wearing under his little garments there.

526
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: So he obviously is decided not to not to do

527
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: this the normal way any other president when they're set back,

528
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: they criticize the court, they're frustrated, they say this or that,

529
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: but then they are like, figure out another way. Maybe

530
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: they want to work with Congress. But nope. He doesn't

531
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: view his loss as a constitutional issue. He viewsed the

532
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: loss as a loyalty issue. But let's go back to April.

533
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: And this is why I fear long term impact of

534
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: Trump less than most people do. He really is lazy.

535
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: I mean, he is super lazy. Right. I often used

536
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: the joke look he's too lazy to be Hitler, he's

537
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: too lazy to be Orbon, he's too lazy to be

538
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: air to one. Okay, forget any of these other you know,

539
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: forget using the north star of the Nazis. Right, just

540
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: picked today's sort of authoritarians. Too lazy to be Orbon,

541
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: too lazy to be air to one. Right. Imagine, you know,

542
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: he actually had some political capital in the first ninety

543
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: days of his administration, and he could have probably strong

544
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: armed his narrow congressional majorities in the House and Senate

545
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: to give him the authority if he simply said back

546
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: in late March, Hey, Congress, I want I want specific

547
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: tariff authority. I'm going to I'm a better negotiator than

548
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: you are. I'm going to negotiate these trade deals, but

549
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: I need to control the tariff. I need you to

550
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: delegate tariff authority to the president. Let's debate it, let's

551
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: vote on it. And there'd have been wouldn't have been easy,

552
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: and he may not have won that argument, but that

553
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: is how you try to win an argument. And then

554
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 1: if you can't win the argument, then he can go

555
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: find his own Republicans to challenge the primary folks and

556
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: you try to do it that way. It's what FDR

557
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: would do when he had racal centrin Democrats to some

558
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: of his ideas, but he also had pretty decent political

559
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: capital with Republicans in that moment. You certainly know he

560
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: would have strong armed the House at that time. Right,

561
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: he was pretty much the House Speaker at that point,

562
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: and John Thune was in go along, get along mode.

563
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: I know, McConnell and you know. And they could have

564
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: done it through the reconciliation process when they were doing

565
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: their big beautiful bill. They were too lazy to pursue

566
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: because it's what was it going to be hard? They

567
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: were going to have to do some good old fashioned

568
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: horse trading. But remember, right, the greatest weakness Donald Trump

569
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: has is his laziness. It will always be the key

570
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: as to why he didn't have the success he could

571
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: have had in business. Right, too lazy in the casino

572
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: business to right, he didn't want to deal with competitors,

573
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: so bought them up, drowned himself in debt, and walked away. Right,

574
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: He's just always looking for a shortcut. Right, Donald Trump

575
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: has shortcuted his way to being a billionaire. Good for him.

576
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: He's used the power of the federal government to actually

577
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: make himself a billionaire. Again a shortcut. But as president,

578
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: his agenda is failing and he's failing to remake the

579
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: American economy in his vision because he's too lazy to

580
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: work with Congress. Bottom line, had he done that, he'd

581
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: had a shot. Markets would have been calmer, his political

582
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 1: capital was fresher, Party was more unified in that moment,

583
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: and he wouldn't have gotten all the authority he would

584
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: have wanted, but he would have gotten some targeted authority

585
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 1: and it would have been legitimate. But again, he didn't

586
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: want to bother He wanted speed, he wanted leverage, immediate leverage.

587
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: He wanted unilateral control. But it's lazy because doing it

588
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: doing it every way I'm describing is a little bit harder.

589
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: It's effort, It takes it. You have to have an

590
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 1: attention span a little bit greater than a nat Well,

591
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: we know he doesn't. So he reached for the emergency

592
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: powers because they worked so well during COVID. So he

593
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 1: loves these shortcut emergency powers that Stephen Miller consistently finds

594
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 1: for him now. And he didn't want to have a

595
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: debate in his own Party, and this avoids deliberation. Well,

596
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: guess what his shortcut ran into Article one. So within

597
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: hours of the ruling, Trump announces a new global baseline

598
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: tariff under Section one twenty two of the nineteen seventy

599
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: four Trade Act. So he's going back even further now

600
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: in congressional authorization to try to find a legal way

601
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: around this. By the way, this new fifteen percent flat

602
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: tariff that he's sent across the board expires in one

603
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty days, so it is he's going to

604
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: need to go to Congress if he wants to continue it.

605
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to Congress weighing in on this. This

606
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 1: is where it belongs, and I think it's going to

607
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: be quite the MRI. We're going to find out where

608
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: the Republican Party is today. Because one thing that has

609
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 1: been true since Donald Trump took his second oath of office.

610
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: Every day he's lost a Republican supporter. Every day or

611
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: every week, somebody leaves the reservation. Nobody he has not

612
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: added anybody to his coalition. You see it in the

613
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: form of elected officials breaking from him. You see it

614
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: obviously in all of these in all of these polls.

615
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: But what his response to this ruling is not good

616
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: in the short term. This will be good in the

617
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: long term because we've established some guard raids, but it's

618
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: going to be unstable in the short term. We have

619
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: a bunch of instability where they'll be refunds. Justice Kavanaugh

620
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 1: warned of chaos. Yeah, I mean, there was no reason

621
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: to violate the Constitution, But there is some truth to this. Yes,

622
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: there's chaos. The importers had to pay billions under this

623
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: i epa misuse of the IEPA authority. They're going to sue.

624
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: They're going to want their money back. Sounds like the

625
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: government's going to fight having to give any of the

626
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: money back. These are lawsuits could take years. It's not

627
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: good for small businesses that need to deal with imports.

628
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 1: It's not good for any business, but small businesses. Big

629
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: business can can figure out how to mitigate the impact

630
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: of this on their on their bottom lines. They can

631
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: write it down right, they can, and they can get

632
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: some tax savings out of something like this. But boy,

633
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: small business, this is a killer. That's why it was

634
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: NFIB was a part of the groups, a part of

635
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: the bigger group of people that were suing over this,

636
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: and oh By the way, the President just exploded the

637
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: deficit with his illegal tariffs, because what looked like was

638
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: going to be the ability to actually see some revenue

639
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 1: come into the country used to at least shrink the

640
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: deficit annual deficit. I don't think we were going to

641
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: make any progress on the debt itself, but to shrink

642
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: the deficit, well, now, if you've removed it, you know

643
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: he was. Look, this has always been part of a

644
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: larger project. As I've tried to let try to walk

645
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: people through, we're ultimately the goal here. The people that

646
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: have really gotten a hold of Trump are the folks

647
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: that want to get rid of income taxes. And you've

648
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: seen in the States, you've seen attempts to get rid

649
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: of property taxes. There are a whole bunch of people

650
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: that want to move all taxation back to being consumption oriented, right,

651
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: much more like a vat tax, like the European right

652
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: that everything is consumption oriented. Well, guess what that was

653
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: our tax policy before we before the sixteenth Amendment and

654
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: legalized income taxes. And you know what, that was worse

655
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: for everybody, and it meant poor people paid a lion's

656
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: share of the taxes. Rich people hid from paying most

657
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: taxes because they were consumption based and the impact was

658
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 1: much greater on lower income people than it wasn't higher

659
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: income people, which is what made the income tax popular

660
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: in that time. It was to it was to make

661
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: the rich start paying their fair share. And here we

662
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: go again, right, it's rich and wealthy people. They don't

663
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: want it. They think that once they have money, they

664
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: shouldn't get taxed on it until they spend it, and

665
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: dindo with their property. Well, good luck funding any service

666
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: that government provides today if you take away income taxes

667
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: and property taxes. But we are going to have a

668
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: ton of instability now for a while. Right, he's going

669
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: to all right, so we found one hundred fIF the

670
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: day's worth of ways to do tariffs. So he's going

671
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: to find there's sort of five or six, my friend

672
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: Bruce Melman, go check out his substack. There's five or

673
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: six other pieces of various authorities that he can start

674
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: to rebuild his tariff structure. And he'll do that, but

675
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: it's going to cause all sorts of instability in prices.

676
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 1: Prices aren't going to come down, they're only going to

677
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: go up. And at this point, right, you think Oh, great,

678
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: there's going to be no terriff. But as a business,

679
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: you have to plan that there's going to be some

680
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: more tariffs somewhere. So this is a mess. But you know,

681
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: did anybody expect Donald Trump to leave? I mean, at

682
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 1: this point, when he leaves office on January twenty, twenty

683
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: twenty nine, we're going to have half the White House

684
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: probably not be rebuilt, a Kennedy Center that's gutted and

685
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 1: not finished, half built structure, and an economy in tatters

686
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: because of the mess he has created with this tariffs.

687
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: So let's zoom out internationally. What's going to happen all

688
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: these trade deals he cut using this illegal tariff authority.

689
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: How many countries are going to say, hey, we want

690
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: a new deal. The deal we cut is no longer operational.

691
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: I think quite a few countries are going to do that.

692
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: So if the tool he used for leverage is unstable,

693
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: then the leverage itself shrinks. And oh, by the way,

694
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: he still hasn't finished this trade deal with China and

695
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: he's going to meet with she in April. My god,

696
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: has it ever been a better environment for the Chinese

697
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: than the environment Trump is created? Now he's alienated every

698
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: major ally the United States has right handing over China,

699
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: you know, handing, Canada and India, all these in the

700
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: European Union better trade relations with China than with the

701
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: United States. And he has sort of usurped his own

702
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: leverage that he was trying to manufacture in going back

703
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 1: and forth. Heck of a job, Trumpy, because every foreign

704
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: leader is going to look at the Supreme Court rule

705
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: and go Court's gonna intervene. We may there may be

706
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: some refunds. Congress may have to insert its control again,

707
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: why do we have to negotiate with Trump on these

708
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: trade deals? So we'll see, it's going to be a mess.

709
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: But Donald Trump's been weakened quite a bit. So here's

710
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: where it's going to get interesting politically if this now

711
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,759
Speaker 1: moves to Congress, and we'll see, right Mike Johnson does

712
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: not want to put these votes out there now. I mean,

713
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: right now, Trump's going to be super vulnerable to Republicans

714
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: walking away from him, right, I mean, we've already seen

715
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: a handful of Republicans and Trump got angry when a

716
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: when a Colorado Republican voted against voted to get rid

717
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 1: of that symbolic vote to get rid of the Canadian tariffs,

718
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: and Trump withdrew his endorsement endorsed his primary opponent. Uh Now,

719
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: in some ways, if Trump wants to try to purge

720
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: his party and reorient it around his protectionist vision for

721
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 1: for the United States, then this is how he's you know,

722
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: he's going to have to go find more like minded

723
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: folks and get them elected to Congress. But I'll tell

724
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: you this, Colorado's have always been a free trade state.

725
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: Colorado's was one of those states that, you know, while

726
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: they lean left there, they're you know, they're not anti

727
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: right to work, not the most pro union state. They

728
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: don't like tariffs. It's free trade state. I have a

729
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: feeling that Jeff heard, the congressman that Trump wants endorsed

730
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 1: and has now unendorsed, knows his electorate better than Donald

731
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: Trump knows that electorate. So bottom line is this is

732
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: an MRI moment for the Republican Party. Right We're going

733
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: to find out who is still a free market conservative

734
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: and who isn't. So we'll find out if they're how

735
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 1: big this fracture is. We know there's a small fracture

736
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: in the Republican Party over trading tariffs. We know there's

737
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: a silent minority. I still think it's close to a majority.

738
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,760
Speaker 1: That's close to a majority that doesn't like these tariffs,

739
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: but they're scared to say anything publicly. You got to

740
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: cover the Supreme Court. Well, we see more folks, especially

741
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: as balloting gets closer, expose themselves as free marketeers. We'll

742
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: see and there might be votes. A rational reaction by

743
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: a president would be to try to get authority in Congress,

744
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: try to persuade, try to find a way to do this.

745
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's going to try to do

746
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: this that way. I don't I don't expect him. I mean,

747
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: he's already responded as I mean literally, A Democratic strategist

748
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: said to me, if I could have scripted Trump's reaction

749
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: to this ruling, I couldn't have scripted it any better.

750
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: I mean, he is. He is owning that every tax

751
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: hike now in the country, every consumer tax hit. He

752
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,320
Speaker 1: just announced a fifteen percent tax hide and consumer goods

753
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: across the board, So you now know that if you're

754
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: paying more, it is directly associated with Trump's economy. It's unbelievable.

755
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: So I said in April this would likely end in

756
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: the situation we're in now. The only surprise was that

757
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: the ruling wasn't even more emphatic it was seven two

758
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: or nine zero. But what happens next is far more important.

759
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: Does Congress reassert its authority in the moment? Do we

760
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: see free market republicans speak out publicly? Does the loyalty

761
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: tests continue by Trump? If Gorsach and Barrett are disloyal

762
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: for reading a statute narrowly? What happens the next time

763
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 1: the disagreement is over something bigger than Tariff's So this

764
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: wasn't about trade policy. This is about how we govern

765
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: and whether we have three co equal branches of government.

766
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: And Donald Trump shortcut just ran straight headlong into the

767
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: brick wall that is the US Constitution. And guess what,

768
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: He's super unpopular at the moment. Let me tell you

769
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: about a new poll in the Washington Post. I want

770
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: to run through this for a few minutes before we

771
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: get to the interview. Now, it's a poll of all adults,

772
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: and so far as we've seen the pattern, when it's adults,

773
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: it's his job approval can't get out of the thirties.

774
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: When it's registered voters, you'll see his job approval. It's

775
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: somewhere in the forty one two percent range. Sixty disapproved.

776
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: It's that disapproval number is huge. Here's a few more things.

777
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: Do you approve a disapproval of the way Trump is

778
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: handling This is again Washington Post Ipso's pole. So it's

779
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: a you, gov, i'm, i'm, it's episodes. I'M it's not

780
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: my favorite methodology. But look that ship has sailed, but

781
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: he is upside down on every single issue. He's got

782
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: a majorities disapproving of him on every issue. They tested

783
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: us Mexican border. Fifty percent disapprove of his policy. That

784
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: was the best issue he performed on. Forty seven percent

785
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: approve of his border policy, Fifty eight percent disapprove of

786
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: his immigration policies, fifty seven percent disapprove of his handling

787
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: of the economy, sixty two percent disapprove of the relations

788
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: that he has with other countries, sixty four percent disapprove

789
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 1: of the tariffs, and sixty five percent hate this inflationary

790
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: Now here's the thing that ought to scare democrats. Americans

791
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: are split on who they trust to handle the country's

792
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: main problems. Here's the specific wording of the question. Overall,

793
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 1: who do you trust to do a better job handling

794
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: the country's main problems Trump. Of the Democrats in Congress, well,

795
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: thirty three percent picked Trump, thirty one percent pick Democrats

796
00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: in Congress. Thirty one percent said neither. How about that? Right?

797
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: Does that not tell you where America really is? Right?

798
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 1: You know, you basically have the base of the basis

799
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: of two parties saying one thing and everybody else feeling

800
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: I don't trust either one of these parties at the moment,

801
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I continue to wonder, is this

802
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: an opportunity for a third party and independent? Does this?

803
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: You know, are Democrats going to realize they have a

804
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 1: huge problem that their brand is shit. They are seen

805
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: as way too liberal, way too progressive, way outside the

806
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: mainstream on some of these issues, and this is why

807
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: they don't have confidence and sort of the rest of

808
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: the electorate. Right the base is animated on hat and Trump,

809
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: and that might be enough in the midterm, but this

810
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: poll is still revealing as again, Donald Trump unpopular in

811
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: every single issue that matters to Americans. The fact that

812
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: this is not a blowout, that Democrats aren't more trusted

813
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: right now to handle everything than Trump by ten or

814
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty points. It's a reflection on the Democratic

815
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: grand that's that's just a reminder of a red flag,

816
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: all right. I like I said, I've got a terrific

817
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: interview with Get to gainda Beer here it is, like

818
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 1: I said, the perfect neighbor is I used the MRI

819
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 1: metaphor before. I think it's an MRI and race and

820
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 1: culture in America a little bit. Some of our gun

821
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 1: laws are stand your ground laws is sort of relevant

822
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,240
Speaker 1: in here. But here's the beauty of this documentary again,

823
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: using only footage from body camera, no narration, no talking heads,

824
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: it is a classication. You get to decide your own

825
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: reaction without letting others try to influence you and tell

826
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: you what you're seeing. You're seeing it all raw and

827
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: in real time. And I highly encourage it. I really do,

828
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 1: because I think it will when you hear people say that,

829
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: you know, it is just a reminder that we've raised

830
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: a lot of racists in this country multiple generations, and

831
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: it's going to take a while for us to eradicate

832
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: that strain, that virus out of the American society. We're

833
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 1: making progress, not fast enough, and this, this this documentary

834
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 1: will tell you that. So let's sneak in a break

835
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: and when we come back to my conversation about the

836
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:44,120
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890
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891
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 2: Well.

892
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: One of the more powerful documentaries that you will hear

893
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: about during the Academy Awards is called The Perfect neighbor,

894
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: and it is by the filmmaker Geta Gandibier, Getha Gandibier.

895
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: My apologies there, and it is First of all, the

896
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: film itself is unique because it's the type of documentary

897
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: I love best, meaning no talking hits. It is a

898
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 1: documentary of real footage and it's about a story sadly

899
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 1: in my home state of Florida. And the standard ground

900
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: law will come into play here a minute, but it's

901
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: a story that's more. This is not a gun story.

902
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,720
Speaker 1: This is a society story. This is a story of race,

903
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: This is a story of policing. This is a story

904
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: of how we live together as Americans. And it's incredibly

905
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: powerful and it couldn't have been done without bodycam footage.

906
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: So if you haven't seen it, it's on Netflix now,

907
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:54,399
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it. It's powerful, it's disturbing. It's also heartbreaking,

908
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: as we were just discussing its grief and rage, as

909
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: Gita will tell you wrapped up in one and Pizza

910
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: joined me. Now, Gita, how did I do introducing your film?

911
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: That was great? Thank you so much for having me.

912
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: You're first of all, it's nominated for all sorts of awards.

913
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: How important is an Academy award to you?

914
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 4: So the Academy Award is a huge honor. I think

915
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 4: it's every you know, it's a dream. Honestly, it's a dream.

916
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 2: And sometimes feels like a pipe dream, you know, in

917
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 2: our in our field.

918
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:30,719
Speaker 4: But I think what makes it so significant it's that

919
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 4: it's our peers who vote right, people that we admire,

920
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 4: people that inspire us, our idols, our colleagues, you know,

921
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 4: so that community feels so meaningful, and the idea that

922
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 4: they choose your film of the many, many many disturbing

923
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 4: films means so much. So that makes it an incredible honor.

924
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 2: Again, a dream. I think beyond that though, to all.

925
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 4: The awards really give us platform to talk about the

926
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,839
Speaker 4: issues that and the impact that we want to have

927
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 4: goes far beyond the film. We're really hoping for change,

928
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 4: that the film will be a vehicle for change.

929
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,319
Speaker 2: So I think the the.

930
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 4: There's two things that come into play with the awards.

931
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: The just the owner of it all and so grateful

932
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 4: that the platform is equally important.

933
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 1: No, and you know, kudos to Netflix for making you know,

934
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: for promoting it. Not just there's one thing to just

935
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 1: put it on your streamer. It's another thing to actually

936
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 1: promote it and make sure people can see it.

937
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 4: Which they could have honestly, And this was an independent film.

938
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 4: We made this independently. My team Message Pictures, Park Pictures

939
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 4: joined us, SOB Productions also joined us. We were a

940
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 4: very small but mighty scrappy team for very little money.

941
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 4: We also got some development funding, but the from Peacock,

942
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 4: but they chose not to take the film ultimately, so

943
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 4: we but you you know, small resources. But the Sundance

944
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 4: Film Festival accepted the film and really give that platform.

945
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 4: That was our first premiere. And after that Netflix made

946
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 4: us an offer. So Netflix took it to the next

947
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 4: level again, a global platform.

948
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: Look, my head is in two different places. Like one part,

949
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the decision to go without

950
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: a narrator and to use all the bodycam footage. On

951
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: the other hand, I do think we should spend a

952
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: few minutes on the story itself, sure, and so I

953
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: want to begin with there, which is what did you

954
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: when did you become you know, how closely were you

955
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: following this story in real time in Marion County, Florida.

956
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: You know, I hate to say it, when I watched this,

957
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 1: it was a very you know, I knew a little

958
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: something about the story itself, so I knew I was

959
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: going to end. But that community, that fight, I've seen that,

960
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: it's a very familiar thing. What was unfamiliar was to

961
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: see it chronicled, yeah, right in real time, and that's

962
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: what made it, I think so powerful. But I am

963
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: curious what was your familiarity with the story at different

964
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 1: points in time while it was unfolding.

965
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 4: Sure, so there is a personal connection to this story

966
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 4: because Ajica Owens was a family friend, so you were

967
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 4: involved from the minute that had happened.

968
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, from the minute that you.

969
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: Show you knew immediately you were brought in. Did you

970
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: know about what was happening in that neighborhood before.

971
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 2: She was killed?

972
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 4: No, we didn't, and we myself and Mama say, we

973
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 4: am talking about myself and my husband.

974
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 2: Who's also a producer on the film that come onto.

975
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 4: And my teammate Message Pictures, Alisa Payne and Sam Pollard,

976
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 4: you're my producing partners. We got a distress call though

977
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 4: from my sister in law who was best friends with

978
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 4: Ajaca Owens.

979
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 2: And when I say sister in law, she's really my

980
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:59,240
Speaker 2: cousin in law.

981
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 4: But we culturally don't differentiate like she's We're very close.

982
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: That's my sister in law.

983
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: I've got cousins, Yeah, exactly so.

984
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 4: But just you know, in case anybody wants to, you know,

985
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 4: wants to fact check it, right, cousin in law. But

986
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 4: we got we got a call the night that had happened,

987
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 4: and we're immediately on the ground trying to support the

988
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 4: family and help gathering the children and getting Achica's mother

989
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 4: into town.

990
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 2: And also we.

991
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 4: Were very aware that the story needed to be in

992
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 4: the media because without media attention, cases like Ajica's often get.

993
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 2: Swept under the rung.

994
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 4: I mean, there's so much gun violence, unfortunately in our

995
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 4: society that it's almost an everyday occurrence.

996
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 2: There's another story of somebody getting.

997
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 1: Shot and neighbor dispute with it turning into a deadly

998
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: gunshot is sadly almost it probably is a daily occurred.

999
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: Daily occurrence, right, more or less.

1000
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 4: So, so we were because we work in media, our team,

1001
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 4: that's what we felt.

1002
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: We could do and how we could help.

1003
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 4: And Susan was not immediately arrested because of stanyar ground laws.

1004
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 4: They had to stand your ground investigation, and we have

1005
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 4: the precedent of the Trayvon Martin case that happened in Florida,

1006
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 4: So we were deeply concerned that there would be no

1007
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 4: justice for Ajica. And then about two months later, Susan

1008
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 4: was eventually arrested. About two months later, we received the

1009
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 4: body camera footage from the family lawyers and who we

1010
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 4: were still involved with the family and again still trying

1011
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 4: to support the case because we didn't know. Again, we

1012
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 4: were worried it might languish, you know, it could take

1013
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 4: years for anything to happen. But the footage came to

1014
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 4: us and they asked us to go through it.

1015
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: They were like, can you look through it? Is there

1016
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 2: anything in here for the media?

1017
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 4: And it was about thirty hours of material and I

1018
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 4: was shocked. I'd never seen that much footage around a

1019
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 4: case before.

1020
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: Can I just say, I'm I was oddly impressed with

1021
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 1: how much there was in How you know, I'm a

1022
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: cynic on this stuff. I assume all these guys are

1023
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: going to turn it off when the real you know,

1024
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: and they there was so much there. It felt real.

1025
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: It felt like I got a real sense of how

1026
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: Marion County Police officers handle these disputes.

1027
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 4: Yes, now one hundred percent, and they were there so

1028
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 4: often because Susan called so often. But I think what

1029
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 4: struck me is that you got to see in this

1030
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 4: footage the community as they were before, and it was undeniable.

1031
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:35,080
Speaker 4: You got to see this beautiful multi racial community living together,

1032
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 4: loving each other, acting like a big extended family, taking

1033
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 4: care of the kids, you know, And you got to

1034
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 4: see the kids playing outside, being precocious and funny.

1035
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 2: And you know, and loved.

1036
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 4: And because there is so much gun violence, we are

1037
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 4: used to seeing the grieving family.

1038
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 2: We know the.

1039
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 4: Aftermath of what happens, but we never get to see

1040
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 4: the before me, the story of this community and what

1041
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 4: they had to go through and how one outlier who

1042
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 4: was emboldened by Stanley ground laws plus combined with our

1043
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 4: access to guns, disrupted their whole world.

1044
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 1: What did you know? What when did you know you

1045
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 1: had a film?

1046
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 2: Sure? So, when when we saw the body camera.

1047
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: Footage, immediately like this is I can do something with that? No?

1048
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 4: Because because what Because like I said, it was thirty hours,

1049
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,479
Speaker 4: It came in a jumble, it came on a thumb

1050
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 4: drive and there were folders. But there's the cops unintentionally

1051
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 4: function like multi camera with the you know, with the footage,

1052
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 4: because sometimes there were two of them unseen.

1053
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: Sometimes there was a little it could be a little uh,

1054
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: it was a little love don't I don't want to

1055
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 1: say it, you know, sort of like wait what I mean?

1056
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: You know it's sort of dizzying.

1057
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But this is again the nature.

1058
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 4: This is not production footage, right, they just just it's

1059
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 4: please evidence. But I spent about two weeks along with

1060
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 4: Nikon Kwan two again my producer and partner, stringing it

1061
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 4: into a timeline. I used to be an editor, so

1062
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 4: I pieced it together and synchronized all the footage and

1063
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 4: the sound, and also took time to figure out the chronology.

1064
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 4: And it was once we had the whole thing strung

1065
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 4: out and we watched it down and we could understand

1066
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 4: the chronology and what happened, that's when I was like, Aha.

1067
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: The family. So one of the things I was curious

1068
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: about is that the family attorney immediately asked for body

1069
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: cam footage for every incident that had ever taken place

1070
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: to differ in that neighborhood.

1071
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 4: Okay, I asked, of course, for the court case, that's

1072
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 4: what they would need, right, So they asked for everything,

1073
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 4: and what you see in the film is pretty much

1074
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 4: what we got, what the.

1075
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 2: Lawyers were given.

1076
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: There was also some ring whether it's some doorbell cameras

1077
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: or wing cameras as well.

1078
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 4: Right, I was part of it also because that was

1079
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 4: collected as evidence. But I think the thing that to

1080
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 4: me that struck me was that I felt like the

1081
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,320
Speaker 4: footage played like a horror film. It played to me

1082
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 4: I thought of films. I come from a scripted background.

1083
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 4: Originally I came up with Spike Lee and Sam Pollard.

1084
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,200
Speaker 1: And actually it had a Jaws vibe to me, the

1085
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 1: original Jaws, right, which is the you know, the initial

1086
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: Steven Spielberg horror creator of that moment of where you

1087
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: don't see, you don't see the menace, but you know

1088
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 1: it's coming out there. And that's what I felt body

1089
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: came for. You're just like I had. I just got

1090
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: the Jaws vibe in that sense, because you know it's

1091
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: building up, but you don't know when it's coming, but

1092
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: you know it's coming.

1093
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: Nobody has said Jaws before. I love that.

1094
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 4: The references for me were paranormal activity and you know,

1095
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 4: things that used and also the Blair Witch Project, like

1096
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 4: films that were made that was meant to be found

1097
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 4: footage or you know again CCTV footage, surveillance camera footage.

1098
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 4: So those were sort of my references, and I wanted

1099
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 4: to make something that was immersive, that would grip audiences

1100
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 4: and hold them. Oftentimes, when we make documentaries, particularly if

1101
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 4: they're social justice, sometimes people don't want to you know,

1102
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 4: they don't want to hear it, like or they're not interesting,

1103
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 4: you know.

1104
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: I that was. Look, I had my wife and I

1105
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 1: was saying, I'm gonna watch this from an interview. She's like,

1106
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, like you know, I know this story.

1107
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't know right, like because you're right. And that's

1108
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 1: why I'm like, no, people, you need to see this.

1109
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: You need to see it because it's a groundmaking way

1110
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: to make a movie. Number one. So there's a technical

1111
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 1: aspect of this that's I mean, I'm not a voter,

1112
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: but if I were to me, this is why to me,

1113
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,959
Speaker 1: it's an e're the easy winner simply because it's both

1114
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: a technical You've done something new and interesting and different

1115
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: in a basically because we now have all this stuff

1116
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 1: we didn't. You know, you couldn't have made this with

1117
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: Trayvon Martin it didn't exist, but one of the other no, no, no, no,

1118
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: and so, and then there's the powerful story itself that

1119
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 1: you tell where you don't have to you're not trying,

1120
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 1: You're you're you're helping people get to a place, but

1121
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: you're not preaching. You're not telling people what should be,

1122
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 1: what to think, You're just showing. You're letting us decide

1123
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 1: what should be. And you're like, that wasn't right.

1124
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 2: Thank you for that. Now we trust our audience. I

1125
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 2: think that was a big part of it.

1126
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 4: We were are belief that we could live in this

1127
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 4: body camera footage and the you know, the police evidence footage.

1128
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 2: And there was a couple of thoughts.

1129
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 4: One was that we didn't want to go back and

1130
01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:46,960
Speaker 4: retraumatize the community by making them relive it again interviewing them.

1131
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 2: They've they'd already been interviewed by detectives, they'd lived it, like,

1132
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 2: I didn't want to burden them with that.

1133
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 4: Then the the other part of it is we felt

1134
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 4: the body camera footage was really undeniable and right now

1135
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 4: we live in a time where everything the media does

1136
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 4: is questioned, and with this footage, there was no film

1137
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 4: crew on the ground, right there was we were not

1138
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 4: there directing anything. So again, because it is police evidence,

1139
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 4: you see things exactly as they happened, no one, there

1140
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 4: was no outside journalist influencing, So so I think that

1141
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 4: makes it undeniable to audiences. And also you can see

1142
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 4: in this footage again how this community was oftentimes after

1143
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 4: after people of color in particular are victimized after a

1144
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 4: crime happens to us, we are often criminalized, and our

1145
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 4: children are adultified. And we felt in the footage again

1146
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 4: the police did not mean to capture this, but they

1147
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:53,120
Speaker 4: did that. Again, this community, this incredible community, and this

1148
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 4: like you have the mother who says, you know, oh,

1149
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 4: these kids, they're all mine, and the father comes out

1150
01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 4: and is like, I look out for these kids like

1151
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 4: they're my own. You see in footage, even footage that

1152
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,720
Speaker 4: Susan shot, the adults playing football with the kids like

1153
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 4: it was and the kids are outside having like you know,

1154
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 4: healthy connected fun.

1155
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: And I think what all of our political leaders say, hey,

1156
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: kids need to be outside more, not in front of

1157
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: their screens. Right, these kids were outside.

1158
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:23,519
Speaker 4: They were outside, and I think and also you saw

1159
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 4: a community of upstanders like Susan, the two neighbors, and

1160
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 4: it wasn't. It's interesting because even though it is about race,

1161
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 4: and Susan tried to weaponize race.

1162
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 2: You know, you see the two.

1163
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,799
Speaker 4: Neighbors that AA that lived on either side of Ogica

1164
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 4: or white women and were complete upstanders.

1165
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: What I saw it as is this is why it's

1166
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: a familiar community to me. In Florida. There are a

1167
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,000
Speaker 1: lot of this is just a working class middle sort

1168
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 1: of what I working class, you know, strivers is what

1169
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:54,440
Speaker 1: I would call it though, right, working crass driver community

1170
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: who like don't want to live in an apartment complex

1171
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 1: with their kids, want their kids to have more of

1172
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 1: a of a of a of a you know, sort

1173
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: of that whatever whatever, the idealized version of growing up

1174
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: in a neighborhood and all that stuff and there, and

1175
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, these communities are all over Florida. It's sort

1176
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: of what makes Florida an attractive melting pot to many

1177
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: people and why they move. And it's affordable.

1178
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 2: It's the best of us. It's really that's the American dream.

1179
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 4: It's the best of us, right, like a place where

1180
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 4: and with that strong social network. I think Susan, on

1181
01:09:26,120 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 4: the other hand, is sort of represents a microcosm of

1182
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:31,839
Speaker 4: all the bills that are plaguing our society.

1183
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 2: She kind of holds a mirror up.

1184
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 1: Two movies jumped out at me with her, because there

1185
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,760
Speaker 1: been attempts to sort of portray that character, is what

1186
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,879
Speaker 1: I would call it. Right, We know this person exists,

1187
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,200
Speaker 1: this person lived in my neighborhood. We all had a

1188
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:54,720
Speaker 1: person like this, right, and you don't quite know what

1189
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 1: they were. Right. You had the Clint Eastwood movie where

1190
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 1: he's the old man torn out Bohite Tornado or something

1191
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 1: like that, where grand grands grand Tino. That's right, And

1192
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,800
Speaker 1: then I was thinking of the that Michael Douglas movie

1193
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: right falling Down whatever, you know, the whole white grievance,

1194
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: white rage. Right. She she felt like a very familiar character,

1195
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,719
Speaker 1: right that we'd seen portrayed. But here was here here,

1196
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,759
Speaker 1: I think there's there's this assumption that maybe these folks

1197
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 1: no longer exist. No, well, she very very much she

1198
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 1: must exist. I'm curious, did you want to what did you?

1199
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 1: I was? I wanted to know more of like how

1200
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: did she become so broken? She's broken? There's no doubt

1201
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 1: she's broken. We don't know what's it.

1202
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 2: We don't know this.

1203
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 4: She moved into the neighborhood two years before everything happened,

1204
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 4: and we don't have much of her backstory, you know,

1205
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 4: nor did we want to speculate on it.

1206
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: No, I get that too, but it's clear she some

1207
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 1: somebody something something she's broken, and you know, I don't

1208
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,879
Speaker 1: know who knows when it happened, right, might have happened

1209
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: years ago or two years ago.

1210
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,520
Speaker 2: You might just be racist though until.

1211
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing. She got broken early. Then,

1212
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: you know, I always say you, you know you have

1213
01:11:17,439 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: to be raised a racist?

1214
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:19,560
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

1215
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 1: I do believe that. I don't think, because kids are

1216
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 1: not racist unless they're caught it now.

1217
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 4: And I appreciate you thinking of that as broken, because yeah,

1218
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:31,439
Speaker 4: it should be thought of that way. But I think

1219
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 4: I was the one thing I wanted to say, though,

1220
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 4: is that she also seemed to be someone who absorbed

1221
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 4: a lot of the rhetoric that is coming from the

1222
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 4: top down today in our country, which is manufactured fear,

1223
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 4: weaponized racism again, and that those kind of things combined

1224
01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 4: with her access to weapons.

1225
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: PA, well, think about those law What was this the

1226
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 1: incident in Saint Louis. Absolutely it was about three years

1227
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: ago with a guide shot and then was the kid

1228
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:04,600
Speaker 1: who went to the wrong door. It was going to

1229
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: go happen more.

1230
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 4: It happened recently there was a woman who was supposed

1231
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 4: to clean someone's house and came to the door and

1232
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,320
Speaker 4: the man shutter the wrong house. Like it is, this idea,

1233
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:18,040
Speaker 4: but the manufactured fear is a tool to divide us, right,

1234
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,639
Speaker 4: and when we fear our neighbors, when we like again,

1235
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 4: then we're okay with them being kidnapped and put in

1236
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 4: detention centers. Right, Like, it's used the idea, and it

1237
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 4: allows an authoritarian government to say things like, noah, we'll

1238
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 4: protect you. We just need to get rid of these

1239
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,759
Speaker 4: people over here. So she seemed to be a symptom

1240
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 4: of all those societal ills.

1241
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: And that is why, in some ways I wanted to

1242
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:45,599
Speaker 1: know more, Like is she just sitting on her lounge

1243
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: chair watching one feed of stuff? And you know, is

1244
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: her information ecosystem very blind or oriented? Right? You know?

1245
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: But it struck me she never had anybody with her.

1246
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, then at once, now when she was moving out

1247
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,320
Speaker 4: of the house, that was her sister.

1248
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 2: There was a woman there who was her sister.

1249
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 4: But other than that, that was that we didn't see

1250
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 4: much of anybody near her. But what's interesting, like I said,

1251
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 4: is there were other older women.

1252
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 2: There was another woman who was her neighbor who appears

1253
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 2: in that.

1254
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:22,559
Speaker 4: Same scene, who is an older woman who similarly lives

1255
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 4: in that neighborhood. But she was the only one. That

1256
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 4: is what is so interesting. She is the only one

1257
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:30,559
Speaker 4: who ever complained.

1258
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: Right, which tells you, you know, says more about.

1259
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 2: Her than anything else, and anything else.

1260
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: You know, the try to me all, you know, your

1261
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: documentary sort of makes the case that in some ways

1262
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:52,599
Speaker 1: this was a form of premeditation. Now we can debate that.

1263
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:54,479
Speaker 1: I get that that there's the letter of the law

1264
01:13:54,479 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: and premeditation, but this was not manslaugh. I think we

1265
01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:04,679
Speaker 1: all know that. And yet I understand that the state

1266
01:14:04,680 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: of Florida passed a law that tied the hands of

1267
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:07,560
Speaker 1: those prosecutors.

1268
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think also I will say this, I

1269
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,599
Speaker 4: think the prosecution, from what happened in the Trayvon Martin

1270
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 4: case and others, I think they went for the lowest

1271
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 4: hanging fruit as.

1272
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 1: Well, because I wanted a conviction.

1273
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 4: They wanted a conviction, and with Trayvon Martin, George the

1274
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,880
Speaker 4: Merman walked in the charge's murder, so I think with

1275
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,639
Speaker 4: manslaughter and Florida, manslaughter carries up to forty years, sorry,

1276
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 4: thirty years. Manslaughter carries thirty years. So I felt, I

1277
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 4: feel that they thought they could get a conviction with

1278
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 4: manslaughter and.

1279
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:45,439
Speaker 2: That she would serve. She would still end up with a.

1280
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 1: Long sentence effectively life. Effectively, she was going to be

1281
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 1: incarcerated for.

1282
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 4: Right yeah, for a sixty years, right yeah, thirty.

1283
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 2: You know, as she ended up with twenty five.

1284
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:00,240
Speaker 4: She had not committed any other violent crime before, so

1285
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 4: I think so, but the judge gave her.

1286
01:15:02,920 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 2: The maximum that he could and that was twenty five.

1287
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 2: So she will be if you know again, where she

1288
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 2: just served the entire sentence, she would be eighty five

1289
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 2: once she gets out.

1290
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 1: So so let's say Governor DeSantis watches this film. What

1291
01:15:19,560 --> 01:15:20,559
Speaker 1: do you hope he takes away.

1292
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 4: I hope he takes away the damage laws that Standard

1293
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 4: Ground do to communities. I hope he takes away the

1294
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 4: fact that we need gun control, that in Florida you

1295
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:34,719
Speaker 4: can buy a gun like you can buy.

1296
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 2: A toaster or a microwave.

1297
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,320
Speaker 4: And there's a point you see in the film where

1298
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 4: Susan is clearly behaving erratically, and there should have been

1299
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 4: a question around her buying a gun. I also hope

1300
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 4: it that folks take away DeSantis included how policing works

1301
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:58,839
Speaker 4: and how they could have and should have caught Susan,

1302
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 4: you know, and seeing her as a threat earlier on

1303
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 4: instead of just treating her like a nuisance. But I

1304
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 4: think because they the police again were not equipped to

1305
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 4: handle it. But they also brought there, you know, they

1306
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 4: brought their own biases to the scene, and she was

1307
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 4: able to weaponize them.

1308
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:16,799
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting with them, you know. It was interesting

1309
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 1: to hear how the officers saying, look, I'm going to

1310
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,400
Speaker 1: believe you, and I'm going to believe them. I remember

1311
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: that was like it stuck out at me, and it's

1312
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 1: like it it was a reminder of why it's important

1313
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: for all of this to be on tape. Yes, all right,

1314
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,880
Speaker 1: and I and again I go back. You and I

1315
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 1: both know that if this happens ten years ago, there's

1316
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:40,719
Speaker 1: every chance in the world she's never charged.

1317
01:16:40,880 --> 01:16:43,400
Speaker 2: Oh and if there was no footage, I don't know

1318
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 2: that she would be charged.

1319
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,400
Speaker 4: If you didn't see her erratic, you know, her behavior,

1320
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 4: calling the cops again and again and again, and if

1321
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 4: you didn't hear the community side of the story, right this, Yeah,

1322
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 4: she could have walked, And this is we honestly we

1323
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:59,640
Speaker 4: didn't until the very end. We had that in our

1324
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,639
Speaker 4: hearts that like we were we were like, she's probably

1325
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:05,120
Speaker 4: going to get off, Like it's no way, it's not possible.

1326
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,439
Speaker 1: This is the story of the twentieth century. In these incidents,

1327
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:12,880
Speaker 1: they all walk, it felt like almost all the time. Yeah,

1328
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: you know, this is why you know, I sit here

1329
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 1: and it's like it's an imperfect body camera footage is

1330
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 1: imperfect on all those things, but it's better.

1331
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 4: And it's also incredibly relevant today when you think about

1332
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 4: what's happening in Minnesota, when we were living in a

1333
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 4: time where we have a government who will distort the

1334
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 4: truth at any given moment freely, has no no moral.

1335
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 2: Compass around doing that. You know, with the murders that

1336
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 2: have happened in Minnesota, where I says murdered a number

1337
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:44,280
Speaker 2: of people is.

1338
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 1: Exact that we're debating whether or not they should have

1339
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,639
Speaker 1: body cameras I know, and they're saying, well, we'll put

1340
01:17:50,640 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 1: them on, but we want to be able to could no, no, no, Yeah,

1341
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:56,760
Speaker 1: we're putting that in your hands of deciding when those

1342
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:58,040
Speaker 1: cameras go on and off, you.

1343
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 2: Need it at all.

1344
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,639
Speaker 4: It should be on it all time because like I said,

1345
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:06,519
Speaker 4: there there is clearly audacity, you know, of the powers

1346
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 4: that be. They like again, they feel they can distort

1347
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 4: the truth at any given moment to their advantage.

1348
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: And I think with and body camera is still only

1349
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 2: in eight states, it's only required in eight states that

1350
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,680
Speaker 2: law enforcement wear it, And it could not be more

1351
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:21,800
Speaker 2: critical right now. And it's it is a double edged

1352
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 2: sword for communities of color because it's it's also a

1353
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 2: tool of surveillance, you know.

1354
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 1: And no, look, I think about this a lot, you

1355
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: know when it comes to privacy, but you and iron

1356
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 1: I fear that people younger than us have like, don't

1357
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:41,480
Speaker 1: don't view it as surveillance.

1358
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 4: It's surveillance, yeah, and it absolutely is. So it's a

1359
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:47,680
Speaker 4: double edged sword, particularly for vulnerable, the most vulnerable. But

1360
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 4: I think right now, the particularly with the case of

1361
01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 4: Ice and what is happening and with who we have

1362
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 4: in power, it is absolutely needed all law enforcement and

1363
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 4: government agents should be required to wear it.

1364
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 1: Opinion. A few sort of technical things about doing the film.

1365
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 1: Every once in a while you would have body camera

1366
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:13,639
Speaker 1: audio and then it would just did you do sort

1367
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:19,720
Speaker 1: of just sort of almost file footage of the neighborhood

1368
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 1: once or something? Yes, so we did.

1369
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 4: There was we did shoot bee role of the neighborhood.

1370
01:19:24,920 --> 01:19:27,480
Speaker 4: So some of the things we shot, we shot vigils,

1371
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 4: we shot protests, the funeral, and we shot bee role

1372
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 4: of the neighborhood. And some of that was for we

1373
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:38,920
Speaker 4: shot originally as to give to media to share with

1374
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:43,040
Speaker 4: news because we wanted use organizations to to to talk

1375
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:44,160
Speaker 4: about what was happening.

1376
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 2: And then some of it.

1377
01:19:45,360 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 4: We shot afterwards just as part of the film so

1378
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:54,639
Speaker 4: that we could again sort of create texture and.

1379
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 2: Also as people could see what the neighborhood looked like.

1380
01:19:57,640 --> 01:19:59,880
Speaker 1: What was the Was it a struggle to get everybody

1381
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:02,679
Speaker 1: greed to allow their likeness to be used.

1382
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 4: No, What's so interesting is that that community was really

1383
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 4: like a family. We the body camera footage, we had

1384
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,760
Speaker 4: to sort of work in reverse and try and find people.

1385
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:15,000
Speaker 4: I did like look at them and get them identified

1386
01:20:15,040 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 4: and then find them at some of the people. It's

1387
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:21,040
Speaker 4: interesting some people came to us redacted by the police,

1388
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:22,639
Speaker 4: Like some of the footage the police had.

1389
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 1: Already we had already redacted. It interesting why would they.

1390
01:20:26,200 --> 01:20:28,439
Speaker 2: I think there was us to redact all of it.

1391
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 2: I see it didn't happen, so we so then, but

1392
01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 2: if there were people that we could not find, particularly children,

1393
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 2: we would.

1394
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 1: Just redacted it. We redacted it. So that's so that

1395
01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 1: any of the blurred faces were not people that said, no,

1396
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:45,720
Speaker 1: you can't do this. It was more of the other way.

1397
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:48,240
Speaker 2: It was more it was more people we couldn't find.

1398
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 4: But there were one or two people who were worried

1399
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 4: about it and we wanted to We were respectful of them,

1400
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 4: of course. I think though for the most part, the

1401
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 4: community stood behind what we were doing. Like they really

1402
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 4: loved each other and they we actually showed the film

1403
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 4: to them before it aired on Netflix, and it was

1404
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 4: very hard. They had a very visceral reaction to it,

1405
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:11,559
Speaker 4: but they afterwards they they kind of talked through it

1406
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,000
Speaker 4: and with each other and you know, had a lot

1407
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:17,760
Speaker 4: of memories. I think it was I think ultimately they

1408
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 4: said it was therapeutic and that they wanted it out

1409
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:22,639
Speaker 4: in the world because they understood what we were doing,

1410
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:24,640
Speaker 4: and they said no other community should have to go

1411
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 4: through that. There is only one family left on that block.

1412
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 4: Everyone else has left.

1413
01:21:30,439 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: They left, They moved.

1414
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 2: How did you stay? And that's how So it's like

1415
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:36,599
Speaker 2: the ripple effect.

1416
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 1: What's your kids?

1417
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ripple effect is enormous.

1418
01:21:40,040 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 4: And that so that beautiful communal again community where kids

1419
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 4: came from all the neighboring streets to play on that

1420
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 4: one block decimated.

1421
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 1: Because they had the empty grass field. Every neighborhood has

1422
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 1: that one and it yes, there said, but so you're

1423
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 1: not sure. I don't know who owned it.

1424
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 2: Actually it belonged to the neighbor. It belonged to Susan's

1425
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:00,760
Speaker 2: neighbor who allowed them to.

1426
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: Play there, who had said yes.

1427
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 4: So it was often out there with them like it was.

1428
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:10,040
Speaker 4: It was they had permission to be there.

1429
01:22:10,479 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: So, you know, I just think about you know, I

1430
01:22:15,360 --> 01:22:20,960
Speaker 1: I often believe that it was a It was helpful

1431
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 1: that I grew up in Miami. When I grew up

1432
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 1: in Miami. I grew up in Miami in the in

1433
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,719
Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties, and we went through three race

1434
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 1: riots in the eighties, all of which might not have

1435
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,760
Speaker 1: happened if there had been body camera footage. You know,

1436
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:41,800
Speaker 1: I was just thinking about just that aspect, like, you know,

1437
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:46,280
Speaker 1: we ripped. Now it's Miami a beautiful place today in

1438
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:49,080
Speaker 1: some ways because of the pain we all had to

1439
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: go through in the eighties. I think there is there.

1440
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:53,479
Speaker 1: You could make a case that in some ways it is.

1441
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,479
Speaker 1: But I think about all this sort of last decade

1442
01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:00,800
Speaker 1: that we had and how many and the destruction of

1443
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 1: a coup of these communities, Liberty City in particular, and

1444
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:06,640
Speaker 1: and how it could have been avoided. Yeah, you know,

1445
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:11,840
Speaker 1: and so easily. Now, I mean, you know, I mean,

1446
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,680
Speaker 1: so that's what makes your film both there was like

1447
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 1: a hopefulness to it, like look, this, this is this

1448
01:23:18,520 --> 01:23:20,600
Speaker 1: is why we need body camera footage. We get a

1449
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 1: fuller picture, you get the better story. You know who

1450
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 1: the guilty party is. There's no question who's the instigator.

1451
01:23:28,080 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 1: There's no question. This isn't it he said, He said,

1452
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:34,160
Speaker 1: like Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman in that business, you know.

1453
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:39,599
Speaker 1: But it hasn't. It doesn't eradicate racism.

1454
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 2: No, no, unfortunately it doesn't.

1455
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:45,439
Speaker 4: But I think they the hope is is that it

1456
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,800
Speaker 4: might the film for us in some ways, that it

1457
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 4: serves as a deterrence. And again, because of the outcome

1458
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 4: at the end of the trial, we're like, maybe people

1459
01:23:54,640 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 4: will think twice about, you know, trying to trying to

1460
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 4: pervert the law, which is already a problem in and

1461
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,760
Speaker 4: of itself, but pervert stand your ground laws and use

1462
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 4: them claim self defense when you're actually committing a crime.

1463
01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 2: And that is the.

1464
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:15,679
Speaker 4: Hope and again, and the ultimate hope is to have

1465
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 4: this law eradicated state by state and particlarly because of

1466
01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 4: the danger as.

1467
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:27,599
Speaker 1: Opposes your career. You started working in scripted film with

1468
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:33,280
Speaker 1: Spike Lee, and he is he had spent a lot

1469
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:38,120
Speaker 1: of time doing scripted social justice messaging, right, you know,

1470
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 1: and what do you think is the more effective way

1471
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:45,840
Speaker 1: to get a message across? When is a documentary better

1472
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 1: than better than scripted? And and is it you said

1473
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 1: something earlier that sort of hit me in this day

1474
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:57,479
Speaker 1: and age when we're not sure what to believe. You know,

1475
01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 1: in some ways the body camera footage is the most

1476
01:25:00,160 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 1: believable material you could come up with. That tells me

1477
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: that maybe the better way to to to to tell

1478
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:14,120
Speaker 1: a story is with is with is with real footage

1479
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,840
Speaker 1: rather than scripted you know, in manufactured book.

1480
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 4: I think they both I love both mediums and I

1481
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 4: think they both absolutely have their place.

1482
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:23,960
Speaker 2: I think if you have.

1483
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 4: The material to make a really compelling documentary. Why not,

1484
01:25:27,280 --> 01:25:31,360
Speaker 4: particularly if you're telling a true story, because I think

1485
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:34,639
Speaker 4: people connect connecting to the fact that this is someone's

1486
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,560
Speaker 4: actual life. It impacts them differently, whereas if it's actors

1487
01:25:38,680 --> 01:25:42,240
Speaker 4: or people. You know. Again, I love scripted was where

1488
01:25:42,280 --> 01:25:44,920
Speaker 4: I started, and so and I love it so much.

1489
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 4: But if you have the means to tell the story

1490
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 4: for real, you know, then why not why not do that?

1491
01:25:52,120 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 2: You know? And I think.

1492
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:57,439
Speaker 4: I think that truth is often stranger than fiction, you know,

1493
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,000
Speaker 4: Like I the this film to me is a stuff

1494
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:02,680
Speaker 4: have like you said, of a community of human behavior,

1495
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:06,840
Speaker 4: of policaying, like it has so many layers and yeah,

1496
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:09,759
Speaker 4: and it's real, right it is. It's this is stuff

1497
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 4: that actually unfolded. Uh So I think that makes it

1498
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:17,080
Speaker 4: really powerful. But like like I said, I love both.

1499
01:26:17,240 --> 01:26:20,200
Speaker 4: I love both, and so I'm always happy to see,

1500
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:24,440
Speaker 4: you know again, stories be told in multiple ways as.

1501
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:25,560
Speaker 2: Creatively as possible.

1502
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 4: I think if it's really up to the vision of

1503
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,320
Speaker 4: the team and the director to decide.

1504
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's funny. I think you set a

1505
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: bar here that I wonder for yourself, is it is

1506
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:38,439
Speaker 1: it going to be? If you want to do a

1507
01:26:38,479 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 1: documentary about another topic and you don't have enough footage?

1508
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 1: Are you going to say, oh, geez, you know, I

1509
01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:44,800
Speaker 1: don't know. If I don't, I don't want to go

1510
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,759
Speaker 1: back to the talking head.

1511
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:51,400
Speaker 2: I might need to tap out. I feel like, I.

1512
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 1: Mean, I mean in some ways, right, You're like, well,

1513
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 1: this is I mean, there's I don't it's not. Who

1514
01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: knows how often you can just get that, yeah, to

1515
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:01,160
Speaker 1: tell a story.

1516
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:04,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it is a rare, tragic confluence of things

1517
01:27:04,479 --> 01:27:05,639
Speaker 2: that led to this film.

1518
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:10,640
Speaker 4: But I you know, I kind of believe that, and

1519
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:14,639
Speaker 4: this is interesting. I'm usually not a person who thinks

1520
01:27:14,720 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 4: like this, but I sort of feel like this film.

1521
01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:21,479
Speaker 4: There's a story about Ajica. Her mother always tells about

1522
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 4: how she was this.

1523
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 2: Ojika was a really vibrant, funny, bright person who had

1524
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:28,519
Speaker 2: a lot of big dreams. She was young, you know,

1525
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:31,080
Speaker 2: she was in her thirties, and she wanted better for

1526
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:33,439
Speaker 2: herself and her family. And she used to talk to

1527
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:34,639
Speaker 2: her and call her mom every day.

1528
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 4: They were very close and they'd talk about her plans.

1529
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 4: She wanted to be an entrepreneur. She was going to

1530
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,120
Speaker 4: you know, be world famous, and her mother would laugh

1531
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 4: at her sometimes, like moms do you know, just like

1532
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 4: because of her ideas and you know, just whatever. And

1533
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 4: she would say to her mom and was one of

1534
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:53,800
Speaker 4: the last things she said to her, and she would say, wait,

1535
01:27:53,880 --> 01:27:54,400
Speaker 4: you know you just.

1536
01:27:54,400 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 2: Wait, you laugh. But one day the whole world's going

1537
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:57,080
Speaker 2: to know my name.

1538
01:27:58,240 --> 01:28:01,520
Speaker 4: So for us, we're left with that in her absence,

1539
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:05,760
Speaker 4: and I kind of feel like she's a part of

1540
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 4: this somehow. She wanted the world to know her name,

1541
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:13,439
Speaker 4: obviously never in this way, but that's become it's now

1542
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:16,559
Speaker 4: on us to make that happen and to try to

1543
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,760
Speaker 4: do more with her legacy and to make change in

1544
01:28:19,800 --> 01:28:20,200
Speaker 4: her name.

1545
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:26,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think this film it has so much more.

1546
01:28:26,640 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 4: Every film is so important, but this film, in a way,

1547
01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 4: there's a bit more weight on.

1548
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 2: On how what we do with it and the impact.

1549
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 1: How are her kids like it?

1550
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:42,120
Speaker 2: It's I think it's up and down that for children.

1551
01:28:42,320 --> 01:28:46,439
Speaker 4: Children are both incredibly resilient but also fragile and are

1552
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:49,679
Speaker 4: not I mean and this is this would devastate anyone.

1553
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:54,679
Speaker 4: So I think they are. They are loved, They're deeply loved.

1554
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,080
Speaker 4: The one incredible thing too, that we were able to do,

1555
01:28:57,120 --> 01:29:00,680
Speaker 4: which was part of my dream, was with this film.

1556
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:03,560
Speaker 4: I had hoped that if we sold it then we

1557
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:05,400
Speaker 4: could give the money to the family, because we had

1558
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:07,639
Speaker 4: nothing to offer them. Otherwise, we didn't have any money,

1559
01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 4: you know, we're just filmmakers. But the sale to Netflix

1560
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 4: that happened out of Sundown's allowed us to give the

1561
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:18,519
Speaker 4: majority of the money to the grandmother and to the

1562
01:29:18,560 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 4: family so they could again these kids, children can have security,

1563
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:25,680
Speaker 4: so they have that they are loved and taken care of.

1564
01:29:25,720 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 4: But there's struggle. There's emotional struggle, which will probably again,

1565
01:29:30,360 --> 01:29:31,479
Speaker 4: it's going to take many.

1566
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:32,080
Speaker 2: Years to hear.

1567
01:29:42,720 --> 01:29:43,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever get over it.

1568
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, I think that's right. That

1569
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 2: kind of loss and that kind of trauma, you.

1570
01:29:50,720 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 4: Build resources and you build strength to work around it.

1571
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm haunted just talking about it

1572
01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:01,599
Speaker 1: at the moment by her son, at the moment she's

1573
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:04,559
Speaker 1: shot and he's just gasping for air.

1574
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1575
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 4: No, it's it is to see children, and it's interesting

1576
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:13,000
Speaker 4: that grief. We've had many conversations about it because that grief,

1577
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:16,519
Speaker 4: watching the children learn that their mother is not coming

1578
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:21,160
Speaker 4: home is the most challenging thing I think.

1579
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,040
Speaker 1: And that was on body camera footage that moment with their.

1580
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:26,560
Speaker 2: Father, just because the police were around them.

1581
01:30:26,280 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 1: Just you know, you're just sitting there and you're just

1582
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:31,639
Speaker 1: that was a moment I forgot it was body camera

1583
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 1: footage and I'm like, wait a minute, isn't just so intimate, right?

1584
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 1: It was felt it almost and then and then it's like, wow,

1585
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: what was that police officer invading their space?

1586
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was he invading themselves. But at the same time,

1587
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:47,720
Speaker 4: the police are trying to comfort them. So she was like,

1588
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 4: it's weirdly human also like it's a moment of humanity

1589
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:53,840
Speaker 4: that I think where the police officers were trying to

1590
01:30:53,920 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 4: hug them and we're trying to console them and didn't

1591
01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:58,559
Speaker 4: also didn't know what to do, you know, because it

1592
01:30:58,600 --> 01:31:02,120
Speaker 4: was such a so heartbreak. I think though, the it's

1593
01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 4: interesting that footage because I think we are so numb

1594
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:10,160
Speaker 4: to gun violence. Audiences react more to the grief than

1595
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:13,679
Speaker 4: anything else. And we talked about it with Ajika's mother.

1596
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:16,320
Speaker 4: I was like, do you want this in Like should

1597
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:17,160
Speaker 4: we remove this?

1598
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,960
Speaker 2: This is the worst day of these children's lives and

1599
01:31:20,040 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 2: here it is like do we want this out in

1600
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:24,679
Speaker 2: the world. And she said to me, no, you leave that.

1601
01:31:24,640 --> 01:31:27,280
Speaker 1: In She was like, you leave that like Attil's mother.

1602
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 4: Yes, she was like, the world needs if they had

1603
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:33,960
Speaker 4: to go through that, if my grandchildren had to live

1604
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:37,360
Speaker 4: through that, the world can bear witness. You know, it's

1605
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 4: a society failing them. They need the world needs to know.

1606
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:44,959
Speaker 4: And I was like, okay, whatever, you know, that's obviously

1607
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:45,679
Speaker 4: it's her call.

1608
01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 1: What do you want the average police officer to learn

1609
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:50,720
Speaker 1: from this?

1610
01:31:51,439 --> 01:31:53,799
Speaker 4: I think that I would love this to be used

1611
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:56,400
Speaker 4: as a tool for police training, and I think I

1612
01:31:56,439 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 4: do think there's multiple things at play here. I think

1613
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:03,839
Speaker 4: a lot of police departments are not trained or equipped for.

1614
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 2: These kinds of issues. They're civil, they see them as civil.

1615
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:11,559
Speaker 1: And it was funny to even hear that once during

1616
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:15,080
Speaker 1: the thing, well that's criminal, where Susan's trying so hard

1617
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:18,880
Speaker 1: to like get that, Yeah about criminal, I'm here for that.

1618
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:21,840
Speaker 4: You know what's interesting, though, is we did have a

1619
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:25,639
Speaker 4: police officer, a former law enforcement officer, approached us after

1620
01:32:25,720 --> 01:32:29,320
Speaker 4: a screening. He approached my producer and Elisa Payne and

1621
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 4: talked to her and she was nervous because you know,

1622
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 4: he came up and said, I I'm a I used

1623
01:32:34,040 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 4: to be in.

1624
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 1: Law enforce, and she was like, Okay, here we go.

1625
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:39,680
Speaker 2: I'm about to get a lecture. But he was like,

1626
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 2: you know what after the third time Susan called here

1627
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 2: in this state and this was in Utah, he said,

1628
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:46,720
Speaker 2: in this state, she would have been flagged as a

1629
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 2: problem and she.

1630
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:49,200
Speaker 1: Would have been interesting.

1631
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,519
Speaker 4: He would have been ticketed. She would have been given

1632
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:57,240
Speaker 4: a warning for abusing emergency services, for essentially calling for

1633
01:32:57,320 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 4: things that were founded.

1634
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:00,360
Speaker 2: And she was like, in the.

1635
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:02,680
Speaker 4: The community would have been told they could file restraining

1636
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 4: order or charges against her for harassment.

1637
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 2: And that is that.

1638
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:10,240
Speaker 1: How many states have laws like that? I didn't you know, I.

1639
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:11,240
Speaker 2: Don't know, but it's true.

1640
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,880
Speaker 4: I do think and we have I think I understand

1641
01:33:13,920 --> 01:33:16,479
Speaker 4: that in states, if you constantly call the police and

1642
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:20,000
Speaker 4: it's unfounded, you can be you know, you become Well.

1643
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:22,920
Speaker 1: We've had we I had to pay a fine because

1644
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:25,840
Speaker 1: our alarm went off and our fire alarm went off

1645
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 1: and the fire department came. And I thought, well that

1646
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 1: in some ways that is reasonable. I just you know,

1647
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:32,559
Speaker 1: that should be fined, and like I understood it. I

1648
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:35,960
Speaker 1: was like, oh Jesus, I you know, I hate this

1649
01:33:36,040 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 1: thing anyway, you know, but I know we have some

1650
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:40,440
Speaker 1: form of that here in Arlington.

1651
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:41,480
Speaker 2: There's no real emergency.

1652
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:44,200
Speaker 1: Right, there was not a fair point, and I.

1653
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 4: Think she so they said that, And then I also

1654
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:52,400
Speaker 4: believe that really there there should be alternative services to police,

1655
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:58,160
Speaker 4: which are for again, community disputes, mediation, mental health crises,

1656
01:33:58,280 --> 01:33:59,040
Speaker 4: that type of thing.

1657
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 1: I think that's we don't have enough law enforcement officers

1658
01:34:02,240 --> 01:34:04,360
Speaker 1: and then they would have to hire I mean that's like, right,

1659
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:09,519
Speaker 1: we are so well, we're underfunded in things that we

1660
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:10,440
Speaker 1: don't prioritize.

1661
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 2: That's exactly well, I don't know that we because some

1662
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,479
Speaker 2: police departments are very well funded, but the funding goes to,

1663
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, only specific things.

1664
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:24,040
Speaker 4: Some of that funding could go to again services that

1665
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:27,960
Speaker 4: where you send out a social worker, a psychiatrist, you know,

1666
01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:31,080
Speaker 4: like and a team of nurses.

1667
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:33,520
Speaker 2: Like this is the kind of thing now here.

1668
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:35,880
Speaker 4: In New York we're talking about for people who are

1669
01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:38,240
Speaker 4: having or who are either unhoused or maybe having a

1670
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:41,000
Speaker 4: mental health crisis, because otherwise they end up dead. If

1671
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 4: you call the cops, people get shot, you know, So

1672
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:45,880
Speaker 4: there should be something else in place.

1673
01:34:45,960 --> 01:34:48,920
Speaker 2: And I feel like if the police are meant to

1674
01:34:48,960 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 2: deal with criminal stuff, first of all, you see, they

1675
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:55,519
Speaker 2: don't prevent anything, because Ajka ended up dead regardless, right,

1676
01:34:55,520 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 2: even though they came home.

1677
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:59,000
Speaker 1: True it didn't work. They were responsive. You can't say

1678
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 1: they weren't responsive. So in that sense, good they were.

1679
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:03,360
Speaker 2: They didn't prevent anything.

1680
01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:06,799
Speaker 1: They tried to de escalate in the moment. Oh yeah,

1681
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 1: but they didn't have it didn't prevent it.

1682
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 2: Didn't They didn't have a solution.

1683
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:13,120
Speaker 1: And also Susan, but I get the sense they almost

1684
01:35:13,160 --> 01:35:16,080
Speaker 1: felt like they couldn't impose a solution. They didn't. It

1685
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:18,439
Speaker 1: wasn't they didn't know what to do. I did get

1686
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 1: the sense they didn't know what to do.

1687
01:35:20,200 --> 01:35:22,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, then they are not they are not trained.

1688
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 1: Actually, I think we got we got a hint. And

1689
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:30,439
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So there was a moment where one that's sorry,

1690
01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 1: where one of the officers they leave. You know, this

1691
01:35:34,920 --> 01:35:38,120
Speaker 1: is probably the third time that they second or third visit.

1692
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:43,840
Speaker 1: This is sort of early in the film, and the

1693
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 1: officer refers to her as an fing b.

1694
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of them says that, another one calls her a.

1695
01:35:50,200 --> 01:35:54,839
Speaker 1: Psycho, and then the audio abruptly cuts. I was curious,

1696
01:35:55,080 --> 01:36:00,200
Speaker 1: was that your editor there edit that's shut off, was

1697
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:04,280
Speaker 1: like realized she was She was probably saying something despair.

1698
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 1: It was like, God, she's a and then she like, so,

1699
01:36:07,880 --> 01:36:10,160
Speaker 1: I'm guessing they're like, well, if you're gonna dispara, you know,

1700
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:12,840
Speaker 1: be careful getting caught on camera disparaging people or something.

1701
01:36:13,120 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 1: She then that means that's the police officer realizing I

1702
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: better shut this off before I get myself. That's right,

1703
01:36:19,680 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 1: that's right. So there's a sense where the officers know

1704
01:36:22,960 --> 01:36:26,320
Speaker 1: who the party that's in the wrong here. They didn't

1705
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:30,040
Speaker 1: know it. They don't have any Is it the law

1706
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:34,000
Speaker 1: that's missing? Is it or is it their training? I mean,

1707
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:38,240
Speaker 1: I don't what what do you think is the issue here?

1708
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:40,640
Speaker 2: I think they never saw her as a threat. I

1709
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 2: think she was able to weaponize her as a nuisance, yeah,

1710
01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 2: but not a threat. And she was able to weaponize

1711
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:49,680
Speaker 2: her race and privilege to make that true. Had she

1712
01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 2: been a person of color filming children and using hate

1713
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 2: speech against them and saying threatening things, I don't think

1714
01:36:56,680 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 2: this would have gone the way it did, or that

1715
01:36:59,000 --> 01:36:59,800
Speaker 2: she would have, you know.

1716
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 1: Not been she might have been an intervention.

1717
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:03,960
Speaker 2: It's more than a nuisance.

1718
01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:06,040
Speaker 4: And they also the police also didn't see the community

1719
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 4: is needing protection from her, you know. So I think

1720
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:12,400
Speaker 4: This is unfortunately that they aside from lack of training,

1721
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera, and again they are our bar

1722
01:37:16,200 --> 01:37:19,400
Speaker 4: for the police. My husband says, this is so low

1723
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,840
Speaker 4: that we often mistake they're polite. We missed stake their

1724
01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 4: politeness for competence. You know, they didn't see her as

1725
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:26,280
Speaker 4: a threat.

1726
01:37:26,400 --> 01:37:29,640
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, in Florida, you could not go there like like

1727
01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:33,360
Speaker 2: a toaster or microwave, so that could make anybody a threat.

1728
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:37,000
Speaker 2: And even after she behaved radically driving her car into

1729
01:37:37,080 --> 01:37:39,120
Speaker 2: a fence, there was a scene where we saw that

1730
01:37:39,680 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 2: they didn't think about it.

1731
01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:43,280
Speaker 1: You know, she never got connected.

1732
01:37:44,120 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 2: M like, hey, systemic issue.

1733
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:53,280
Speaker 1: She's a she's uniquely broken. I go back to broken.

1734
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,479
Speaker 1: I always like to use broken because I assume everybody

1735
01:37:56,560 --> 01:38:00,360
Speaker 1: has the potential. Yeah, and you know so you usually

1736
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:04,360
Speaker 1: try to go with broken. But she was something happened right,

1737
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:07,240
Speaker 1: she was not she was She did not process the

1738
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:08,599
Speaker 1: way most people process.

1739
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:12,200
Speaker 4: But she was left over here to fester, right by

1740
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 4: them then saying, oh.

1741
01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 1: My guess is she alienated everybody in her own life?

1742
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:16,280
Speaker 4: Huh?

1743
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:20,840
Speaker 1: I mean it was not, and I don't to me,

1744
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:23,639
Speaker 1: the footage doesn't lie. You didn't paint her as a loaner.

1745
01:38:24,120 --> 01:38:27,120
Speaker 1: But we never saw her with anybody, and that doesn't

1746
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:27,760
Speaker 1: surprise me.

1747
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:32,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, we knew know she attended a church, so there

1748
01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 4: was you know, she was there was a community like.

1749
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:39,080
Speaker 1: She was clearly always miserable. I mean, if if kids

1750
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 1: playing drives you crazy, you've got your own issues.

1751
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1752
01:38:43,640 --> 01:38:45,519
Speaker 4: But I think the thing that's really important to say

1753
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:49,360
Speaker 4: here is too the system also failed her. The system

1754
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:52,760
Speaker 4: failed Ajica and her family and that viewpoint.

1755
01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:55,240
Speaker 2: But it failed her. She should have never had access

1756
01:38:55,240 --> 01:38:57,559
Speaker 2: to again. She should have never you know, if there

1757
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,439
Speaker 2: had been an intervention, she would not be in jail

1758
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:02,120
Speaker 2: for ostensibly the rest of her life.

1759
01:39:03,160 --> 01:39:06,640
Speaker 1: I mean, one law Florida did pass. Was there a

1760
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:11,160
Speaker 1: red flag law after the Parkland shooting that has been

1761
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 1: quite effective in Florida. What happened, and she would have

1762
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 1: been a prime candidate, uh, perhaps for it. Yeah, they knew,

1763
01:39:19,720 --> 01:39:22,320
Speaker 1: you know, and that is a question. Did they know

1764
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:24,840
Speaker 1: she was a firearm owner? Because they could have found

1765
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:25,800
Speaker 1: out that they chose.

1766
01:39:25,560 --> 01:39:27,880
Speaker 2: To, they could have fell out, but they just did not.

1767
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:28,960
Speaker 1: They never chose to.

1768
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 4: But she also saw her play victim, right, She weaponized

1769
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,440
Speaker 4: victimhood the minute she thought she was in trouble, suddenly.

1770
01:39:35,439 --> 01:39:39,440
Speaker 1: Welcome to our welcome to our politics and social media everybody.

1771
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:43,559
Speaker 4: Also, yes, weaponizing victimhood and I think but that has

1772
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 4: been a strategy, I have to say, all like, it's

1773
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 4: part of white grievance, right, It's like and also white

1774
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,000
Speaker 4: women and their and fear when you look at Emma

1775
01:39:52,040 --> 01:39:55,439
Speaker 4: Till's case, right, has led white women and as we

1776
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,679
Speaker 4: you know, it's now termed Karen is a Karen.

1777
01:39:58,800 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: I saw that the kids were you Karen, Karen.

1778
01:40:01,479 --> 01:40:04,599
Speaker 2: But it's been the weaponization of racism right since.

1779
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:07,400
Speaker 1: The time neighbor named Karen. She hates it. I feel

1780
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:09,720
Speaker 1: bad for her that her name's now a pejorative.

1781
01:40:10,120 --> 01:40:14,240
Speaker 2: Helpless people have been lynched because of a white woman said, oh,

1782
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:17,120
Speaker 2: I'm afraid. I don't feel safe. They you know, they

1783
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 2: whistled at me or he said he talked to me,

1784
01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:20,360
Speaker 2: you know.

1785
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:23,439
Speaker 4: I mean that's how I until died. So we think

1786
01:40:23,479 --> 01:40:26,519
Speaker 4: about this and and Susan was doing that. She was

1787
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:30,679
Speaker 4: doing that, and it's like a modern version of that.

1788
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:37,280
Speaker 1: So so what's next for you? Projects? I mean, I

1789
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:40,080
Speaker 1: know most documentaries have like eight projects that they and

1790
01:40:40,120 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 1: they're waiting for see which one is going Okay, this

1791
01:40:43,880 --> 01:40:45,240
Speaker 1: one's ripe, right, it's.

1792
01:40:46,520 --> 01:40:49,479
Speaker 4: Last year, I should say my Message Pictures which is

1793
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:52,479
Speaker 4: Sam Pollard, Alisa Payne and myself and the con Kwon

1794
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:55,840
Speaker 4: two is a longtime collaborator. We had Katrina come Helen

1795
01:40:55,920 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 4: high Water come out on that in October. It was

1796
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:01,360
Speaker 4: a very successful series was number one for them for

1797
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:03,360
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks or for at least a week,

1798
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 4: but it did really well for them. And then we

1799
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:08,960
Speaker 4: also had a short come out, The Devil Is Busy,

1800
01:41:09,120 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 4: which I co directed with Crystal and Hampton, my best

1801
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 4: friend from college, and that is also nominated for an Oscar.

1802
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 4: So I have two films that are nominated, which is

1803
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:21,559
Speaker 4: apparently the first time it's ever happened for a woman,

1804
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 4: two films all right directed, So that is a huge

1805
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:27,360
Speaker 4: you know again for me in honor, also a little

1806
01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:28,799
Speaker 4: disappointed that I am the first.

1807
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:32,200
Speaker 2: It should have happened already, but whatever, I'll take it.

1808
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:34,840
Speaker 1: So its yeah.

1809
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:37,760
Speaker 2: And then we have the perfect So so now we are.

1810
01:41:37,840 --> 01:41:38,840
Speaker 2: So we're starting up.

1811
01:41:38,880 --> 01:41:41,519
Speaker 4: There is another documentary which we'll be announced in a

1812
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:45,000
Speaker 4: couple of weeks that we're about to we're beginning on

1813
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:49,200
Speaker 4: that we're excited about and then we're also diving back

1814
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:51,879
Speaker 4: into scripted. We have some because I come from scripted,

1815
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:55,519
Speaker 4: Alisa comes subscripted, Sam does scripted, so where ni Con

1816
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:58,240
Speaker 4: was an animation producer, so we have we want to

1817
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 4: sort of branch out into back into other forms that

1818
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 4: we've always been part of.

1819
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:06,360
Speaker 1: Well. One of the things that I've since leaving sort

1820
01:42:06,400 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 1: of the legacy media world is realizing that there are

1821
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 1: just a million ways to teach people. Yes, right, and

1822
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, film, especially with this younger generation that is

1823
01:42:18,520 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 1: much more visual than they are text. And there's I

1824
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:26,320
Speaker 1: say that I'm not judging, you know, we all learn differently,

1825
01:42:26,320 --> 01:42:30,240
Speaker 1: we all absorb differently, and the visual medium as a story,

1826
01:42:30,400 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 1: you know, and telling stories in some way the best storytellers.

1827
01:42:34,600 --> 01:42:38,639
Speaker 1: We need now more than ever in order to educate

1828
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:41,920
Speaker 1: the country about our history, educate people about our history.

1829
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:45,439
Speaker 1: So in that vein, I mean where you know this

1830
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:48,599
Speaker 1: to me is is it's an education film as much

1831
01:42:48,680 --> 01:42:51,880
Speaker 1: as it's you know it's there to it's there to

1832
01:42:52,720 --> 01:42:57,280
Speaker 1: visually show you something that you can read about. This

1833
01:42:57,320 --> 01:43:00,960
Speaker 1: is not a new story, but this was told in

1834
01:43:00,960 --> 01:43:02,840
Speaker 1: a more powerful, in a different way, in a way

1835
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:04,880
Speaker 1: that is hopefully going to get absorbed by people who

1836
01:43:04,880 --> 01:43:08,240
Speaker 1: may not read. You know, a story I just had

1837
01:43:08,240 --> 01:43:10,000
Speaker 1: an author on not too long ago, the person who

1838
01:43:10,040 --> 01:43:13,840
Speaker 1: wrote about and the Barn that Emmettil was killed in,

1839
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:18,439
Speaker 1: right Thompson. And it's a terrific book. But in some

1840
01:43:18,479 --> 01:43:20,160
Speaker 1: ways not everybody reads books.

1841
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:22,679
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so it's like, how do we reach people?

1842
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 1: You know?

1843
01:43:23,240 --> 01:43:26,320
Speaker 2: Ryan Coogler told a really beautiful story we were We

1844
01:43:26,400 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 2: have Sinners has been on the you know, we've sort

1845
01:43:28,280 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 2: of been on the road together and the team.

1846
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 1: You've been seeing you've been doing the circuit with. Yes,

1847
01:43:35,960 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 1: Sinners is another that's awful, which is such a way

1848
01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:38,960
Speaker 1: to do horror.

1849
01:43:39,080 --> 01:43:42,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's such a like again, such a thrill for us.

1850
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,559
Speaker 4: But he talked about how in the neighborhood he grew

1851
01:43:45,640 --> 01:43:49,920
Speaker 4: up in, like, there were elders who actually, because of

1852
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 4: lack of schooling or they had to leave school at

1853
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,040
Speaker 4: an early age, you couldn't read. Like they could run

1854
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 4: a business, they could navigate street signs, they could understand,

1855
01:43:58,320 --> 01:44:02,520
Speaker 4: they couldn't actually read and comprehend a book.

1856
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:03,200
Speaker 2: That they had.

1857
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:03,639
Speaker 1: Movies.

1858
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:07,960
Speaker 2: Movies were their medium, you know, a medium for them

1859
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:11,840
Speaker 2: to like gain information and think about the world and

1860
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:15,720
Speaker 2: interact with it because they didn't have the privilege of

1861
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 2: learning how to read. And I thought that was so

1862
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:19,600
Speaker 2: powerful and that I have.

1863
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 4: There's some relation to that for me with like the

1864
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,840
Speaker 4: women in my family who you know, again elder women

1865
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 4: not my mother's generation, but further back, who might have

1866
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 4: been taken out of school at like a young age.

1867
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:33,280
Speaker 1: They're supposed to you know, at the keep house or something.

1868
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so for them even movies were like an

1869
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 2: escape and something, you know, a medium that they could

1870
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:42,240
Speaker 2: really be immersed in.

1871
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:44,920
Speaker 1: So is there a topic you haven't done that you

1872
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:45,519
Speaker 1: want to tackle.

1873
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:49,840
Speaker 2: I would like to do a comedy. I would like

1874
01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:53,040
Speaker 2: to do something I think I've in need. I would

1875
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:57,040
Speaker 2: like to do a humorous movie. That's my That's one

1876
01:44:57,080 --> 01:44:57,360
Speaker 2: of the.

1877
01:44:57,360 --> 01:45:00,120
Speaker 1: Dreams, just that of funny.

1878
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:03,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the humor is so critical. Humor is a

1879
01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:06,200
Speaker 2: revolutionary So I feel like that is something.

1880
01:45:06,040 --> 01:45:07,920
Speaker 1: That I would like. It's also another way to teach.

1881
01:45:08,280 --> 01:45:11,439
Speaker 2: Yes, it is, and it's been used in so many ways.

1882
01:45:11,880 --> 01:45:16,120
Speaker 2: I think about Whoopy Goldberg talks about moms Mabley, who

1883
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 2: was her icon, who used that platform of comedy to

1884
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 2: talk about deeply political things she would never have been

1885
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 2: able to talk about otherwise.

1886
01:45:24,560 --> 01:45:29,559
Speaker 1: So what me I to get a creator? And I'm

1887
01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:34,479
Speaker 1: very curious how do you use AI and what are

1888
01:45:34,479 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 1: you comfortable with and what are you going to fight

1889
01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:39,519
Speaker 1: to the death on when it.

1890
01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:44,439
Speaker 2: Comes to the side, we don't use that. I don't

1891
01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:49,519
Speaker 2: use that as in my filmmaking, So that does not.

1892
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:51,320
Speaker 1: Are you convinced you'll never use it?

1893
01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:56,559
Speaker 4: I I am right now convinced I'll never use it.

1894
01:45:56,600 --> 01:45:58,439
Speaker 2: But I can't predict the future, right.

1895
01:45:58,400 --> 01:45:59,680
Speaker 1: No, I mean I don't think any of us know

1896
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:03,040
Speaker 1: how they Yeah, I do tools get changed on us

1897
01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 1: and you're.

1898
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:06,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, and also too, does it just become so

1899
01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 4: ubiquitous that we have no choice?

1900
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:10,880
Speaker 2: I'm worried about that. I would like to say I

1901
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 2: will never use it.

1902
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 4: I and that is my stance, But there comes a

1903
01:46:16,400 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 4: point where you end up shut out, right, like if you,

1904
01:46:20,160 --> 01:46:22,320
Speaker 4: for example, like I know I will not have a

1905
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:25,160
Speaker 4: cell phone, but then if you don't like it, actually

1906
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 4: you have.

1907
01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:29,360
Speaker 1: You just to navigate the word like now you can't.

1908
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:32,320
Speaker 4: Not have one, you cannot have one, and my children too,

1909
01:46:32,439 --> 01:46:33,080
Speaker 4: Like it's interesting.

1910
01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:35,759
Speaker 1: Even in speaking of surveillance, I always say this, imagine

1911
01:46:35,760 --> 01:46:38,360
Speaker 1: if the government. Imagine if the government had said we're

1912
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:40,679
Speaker 1: you have to carry a phone with you all the time.

1913
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 1: What do you mean we have to carry a phone

1914
01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 1: with us? Right, yeah, yeah, we all did it voluntarily.

1915
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:49,120
Speaker 1: It's but I think, but.

1916
01:46:49,120 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 4: I think so that's the thing, like I right now, no,

1917
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 4: but twenty years from now.

1918
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:57,960
Speaker 1: I mean you talked about you have a friend who's

1919
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 1: doing an animation. I mean that that that scares me

1920
01:47:01,880 --> 01:47:04,439
Speaker 1: at how that will be the first I fear that's

1921
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:05,679
Speaker 1: the first thing that falls.

1922
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:07,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the first to.

1923
01:47:07,080 --> 01:47:09,120
Speaker 1: Go because it's so expensive and labor intensive.

1924
01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:10,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

1925
01:47:11,880 --> 01:47:14,040
Speaker 4: You know, but I think we'll have to see it's

1926
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 4: up to our community, right, like we really have to make.

1927
01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:20,080
Speaker 1: Decisions well, and it's also up to the public hopefully.

1928
01:47:20,680 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 1: The stuff that's made with AI is you know, it's

1929
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:28,320
Speaker 1: like you don't want to eat plastic fruit, no, you no?

1930
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 1: And I think we've all learned, oh gross, it looks good,

1931
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:33,000
Speaker 1: but probably.

1932
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:35,240
Speaker 4: Right we continue to see the value in what we

1933
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:37,640
Speaker 4: do and don't want to replace.

1934
01:47:37,320 --> 01:47:40,280
Speaker 1: Us with well, and it goes like I said, it

1935
01:47:40,280 --> 01:47:42,439
Speaker 1: goes back to to take this back to the beginning

1936
01:47:42,439 --> 01:47:46,679
Speaker 1: as we land this plane that you know, I believe

1937
01:47:46,760 --> 01:47:52,680
Speaker 1: there's a premium on real life in person live authenticity,

1938
01:47:53,280 --> 01:47:56,120
Speaker 1: no editors, no anything, and in some case your body

1939
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:58,960
Speaker 1: camera footage is all of that wrapped up. It is,

1940
01:47:59,040 --> 01:48:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, the the pushback against you know, manufactured content.

1941
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for saying that. That means a lot.

1942
01:48:06,800 --> 01:48:10,960
Speaker 1: Well, look, good luck and uh, I know who I'm

1943
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 1: rooting for night.

1944
01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:15,160
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1945
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:27,760
Speaker 1: All right, it's great to get to know. Well, let's

1946
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:31,400
Speaker 1: get into the time machine because guess what, let's just

1947
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:34,680
Speaker 1: say thematically, it sort of fits with the UH with

1948
01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:37,400
Speaker 1: the broader theme of the beginning of this podcast having

1949
01:48:37,400 --> 01:48:41,880
Speaker 1: to do with emergencies and how those in power can

1950
01:48:41,920 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 1: abuse UH legislation that gives them emergency power. So let's

1951
01:48:50,160 --> 01:49:00,120
Speaker 1: get into the time machine. Where are we going? We

1952
01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:03,160
Speaker 1: were going back to February twenty seventh, nineteen thirty three,

1953
01:49:04,200 --> 01:49:08,240
Speaker 1: the German parliament building known as the Reichstag burned. The

1954
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 1: fire matters, but the story isn't the flames. The real

1955
01:49:11,479 --> 01:49:15,720
Speaker 1: story is how fragile Germany's political system already was, how

1956
01:49:15,800 --> 01:49:20,720
Speaker 1: quickly legal authority became a vehicle for authoritarian power. And

1957
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 1: to understand the night of the Reichstag fire, you have

1958
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,880
Speaker 1: to understand why Adolf Hitler was even in office in

1959
01:49:26,920 --> 01:49:31,600
Speaker 1: the first place, because he didn't seize power, he was

1960
01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:37,200
Speaker 1: handed power. That's how this authoritarian regime in Germany began.

1961
01:49:38,200 --> 01:49:42,080
Speaker 1: By the early nineteen thirties, Germany was exhausted. The Great

1962
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:46,280
Speaker 1: Depression had devastated the economy. Remember America was pursuing that

1963
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:51,760
Speaker 1: horrible protectionist tariff policy that was essentially causing the rise

1964
01:49:51,800 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 1: of nationalism all around the world. That's my historical opinion.

1965
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:01,439
Speaker 1: But it had devastating impact than the European economy, particularly

1966
01:50:01,439 --> 01:50:05,280
Speaker 1: the Germans. Unemployment sword banks collapsed. Faith in the parliamentary

1967
01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:10,600
Speaker 1: democracy in Germany erode it. The president, Paul von Hindenberg,

1968
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 1: had already appointed three chancellors in rapid succession before he

1969
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 1: ends up appointing Adolf Hitler. First, it was Heinrich Bruening.

1970
01:50:19,840 --> 01:50:23,040
Speaker 1: He governed through the harsh austerity measures during the depression.

1971
01:50:23,439 --> 01:50:24,880
Speaker 1: He was the one that had to cut spending and

1972
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:28,280
Speaker 1: wages in hopes of trying to stabilize the currency. Instead,

1973
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:32,600
Speaker 1: it deepened public misery and he lost support inside that parliament.

1974
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:37,040
Speaker 1: Then came Franz von Poppen, who had virtually no base

1975
01:50:37,120 --> 01:50:41,920
Speaker 1: inside parliament and ruled almost entirely by presidential emergency decree.

1976
01:50:42,479 --> 01:50:45,320
Speaker 1: He alienated both the left and the right and could

1977
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:48,800
Speaker 1: not build a governing coalition. And then the last one

1978
01:50:48,840 --> 01:50:50,760
Speaker 1: before Hitler was a gentleman by the name of Kurt

1979
01:50:50,840 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 1: von Schlatscher who tried to split the Nazi Party and

1980
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 1: construct a cross party alliance. It failed and he quickly

1981
01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:04,719
Speaker 1: lost Hindenburg's So in under three years, Germany cycled through

1982
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:10,960
Speaker 1: three increasingly unstable governments. And during that entire period they

1983
01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 1: had something called Article forty eight, the emergency clause of

1984
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:19,080
Speaker 1: the Weimar Constitution, which was used regularly to bypass parliament

1985
01:51:19,080 --> 01:51:23,800
Speaker 1: because parliament was so dysfunctional and divided, so emergency rule

1986
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 1: had already been normalized in German society's some From there,

1987
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:35,280
Speaker 1: Hitler didn't invent the habit. He stippingly stepped into the void.

1988
01:51:35,439 --> 01:51:40,080
Speaker 1: So how did Hitler get there? In nineteen thirty two,

1989
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:42,599
Speaker 1: the Nazi Party had surged to become the largest party

1990
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:46,360
Speaker 1: in parliament. It was real popular support, but he did

1991
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:48,839
Speaker 1: not The Nazi Party did not have a majority in parliament,

1992
01:51:49,680 --> 01:51:52,120
Speaker 1: but in the November nineteen thirty two elections, the Nazis

1993
01:51:52,160 --> 01:51:57,040
Speaker 1: actually lost seats. Momentum was slipping. Hitler was not inevitable.

1994
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 1: But what changed was the calculation of the elites. Again,

1995
01:52:06,560 --> 01:52:10,720
Speaker 1: just think about the Republican Party circa twenty sixteen. But

1996
01:52:10,760 --> 01:52:16,120
Speaker 1: I digress. So what changed was elite calculation. Conservative insiders,

1997
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:20,080
Speaker 1: especially Franz von Poppin, believe they could use Hitler's popularity

1998
01:52:20,120 --> 01:52:24,639
Speaker 1: to stabilize government. They assumed that they would dominate the Captain,

1999
01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:29,599
Speaker 1: that they could box Hitler in, that his radicalism could

2000
01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:36,000
Speaker 1: be managed, that his mass following could be harnessed. Well,

2001
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:40,679
Speaker 1: they were wrong, but they tried so. On January thirtieth,

2002
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:44,840
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three, Hindenberg appointed Hitler Chancellor. Not because he

2003
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:47,839
Speaker 1: was democratic, not because he had a majority in parliament

2004
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:51,160
Speaker 1: he did not, but because the elites at the time thought, well,

2005
01:52:52,479 --> 01:52:54,880
Speaker 1: he's got the biggest block of supporters and we can

2006
01:52:54,920 --> 01:52:59,559
Speaker 1: control him. Or so they thought, so he gets appointed

2007
01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:03,640
Speaker 1: January thirtieth, twenty seven. Twenty eight days later, excuse me,

2008
01:53:05,280 --> 01:53:09,040
Speaker 1: February twenty seventh, the Reichstock burns now a Dutch communists

2009
01:53:09,080 --> 01:53:12,799
Speaker 1: Marinis vander Lub was arrested at the scene. Most historians

2010
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 1: today believe he likely acted alone. Whether the Nazis helped

2011
01:53:17,520 --> 01:53:20,920
Speaker 1: or simply exploited the fire is still debated to this day.

2012
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:26,720
Speaker 1: Right was it an inside job? Was you know? Was

2013
01:53:27,200 --> 01:53:33,880
Speaker 1: vander Lubi a patsy? But politically it didn't matter. Hitler

2014
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:37,120
Speaker 1: immediately framed the event as the beginning of a communist uprising,

2015
01:53:38,080 --> 01:53:41,479
Speaker 1: and that framing found fertile ground. Enemy of my enemy

2016
01:53:41,960 --> 01:53:45,879
Speaker 1: is my ally, and everybody feared the communists in Germany.

2017
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:52,639
Speaker 1: Germany had a growing Communist block inside the Reichstock Street.

2018
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 1: Clashes between Nazis and Communists were common. Political violence was

2019
01:53:57,840 --> 01:54:01,160
Speaker 1: happening a lot. The violence was real and fear moved quickly.

2020
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:04,000
Speaker 1: So the next day after the fire, February twenty eighth,

2021
01:54:04,040 --> 01:54:09,400
Speaker 1: Hindenberg signed the Reichstag Fire Decree under Article forty eight.

2022
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:15,000
Speaker 1: That decree suspended, essentially what is the equivalent of our

2023
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:18,679
Speaker 1: first Amendment. It suspended freedom of speech, freedom of the press,

2024
01:54:18,920 --> 01:54:23,800
Speaker 1: freedom of assembly, protections against arrest without charge. This was

2025
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:34,200
Speaker 1: constitutional authority, legal authority. Their constitution essentially created a dictatorship. Legally.

2026
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:39,840
Speaker 1: Thousands of communists were arrested immediately, their ability to organize

2027
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:43,320
Speaker 1: a campaign was crippled. And then here's the here's the

2028
01:54:43,400 --> 01:54:45,600
Speaker 1: key with it. A week later, they're holding elections. Anyway,

2029
01:54:45,600 --> 01:54:48,680
Speaker 1: they were having another round of elections in March. So

2030
01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:52,160
Speaker 1: on March fifth, nineteen thirty three Germany votes, the Nazi

2031
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:54,560
Speaker 1: Party receives forty three point nine percent of the vote

2032
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:58,600
Speaker 1: two hundred and eighty eight seats, not a majority. Even

2033
01:54:58,640 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 1: after the fire, even after the repression, the Nazis did

2034
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:06,640
Speaker 1: not command a majority of German voters. But here's where

2035
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:10,640
Speaker 1: the mechanics mattered. The Communist Party won about twelve percent

2036
01:55:11,480 --> 01:55:14,800
Speaker 1: in that election, but many of its deputies were prevented

2037
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 1: from taking their seats. They wouldn't let the Communists in there.

2038
01:55:18,040 --> 01:55:23,840
Speaker 1: So it you take away the Communists, suddenly that looks

2039
01:55:23,840 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 1: like they do have a majority. So when you combined

2040
01:55:27,400 --> 01:55:30,080
Speaker 1: with conservative allies, the Nazis had the numbers to move forward.

2041
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:33,880
Speaker 1: Later in March, they passed something called the Enabling Act,

2042
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:41,480
Speaker 1: in a granted Hitler's cabinet authority to legislate without parliamentary approval.

2043
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:46,800
Speaker 1: Just they just he would decree. There was no more

2044
01:55:46,880 --> 01:55:51,480
Speaker 1: legislative bridge in Germany at this point. By the way,

2045
01:55:51,480 --> 01:55:55,120
Speaker 1: to get this pasted, it required two thirds majority. The

2046
01:55:55,200 --> 01:56:01,160
Speaker 1: legislature basically voted to eradicate its existence. And why did

2047
01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:04,080
Speaker 1: it pass because the Communist Party members weren't allowed to vote,

2048
01:56:04,080 --> 01:56:08,400
Speaker 1: they were absent. Some opposition members were simply intimidated by

2049
01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:13,400
Speaker 1: the Nazi thugs. Conservative parties calculated that cooperation was safer

2050
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 1: than resistance. Again go back to nine twenty sixteen. Sorry,

2051
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:26,800
Speaker 1: the authoritarian turned required votes, it required signatures, it required

2052
01:56:26,800 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 1: a legal procedure. The German dictatorship was done via constitutional rules.

2053
01:56:36,400 --> 01:56:38,480
Speaker 1: Why did it work well? By February nineteen thirty three,

2054
01:56:38,520 --> 01:56:42,400
Speaker 1: emergency governance had already been normalized. Parliament had already been

2055
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:46,320
Speaker 1: weakened in Germany. The economic crisis had eroded faith in

2056
01:56:46,360 --> 01:56:50,600
Speaker 1: liberal democracy in general. What they looked around and wasn't working.

2057
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 1: People didn't like people didn't like that economy. Elites believed

2058
01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:01,240
Speaker 1: the temporary authoritarian measures would restore order. So the Reichstag

2059
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:04,640
Speaker 1: fire did not create authoritarianism, but it accelerated a system

2060
01:57:04,680 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 1: that was already leaning in that direction. And that's what's

2061
01:57:09,200 --> 01:57:13,520
Speaker 1: so always been so unsettling about this incident and history,

2062
01:57:13,800 --> 01:57:16,120
Speaker 1: because the incident is not the fire or the arson.

2063
01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 1: The most unsettling part of this story is its legality.

2064
01:57:22,560 --> 01:57:26,440
Speaker 1: German democracy didn't collapse because laws were ignored, just the opposite.

2065
01:57:26,480 --> 01:57:30,400
Speaker 1: It collapsed because the laws were used expansively, but they

2066
01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:34,400
Speaker 1: were used, and they were used under crisis conditions. Our

2067
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 1: emergency powers are not inherently authoritarian. It's who uses those

2068
01:57:39,480 --> 01:57:44,480
Speaker 1: emergency powers. But when crisis becomes the organizing principle of

2069
01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:52,480
Speaker 1: governance and legislatures differ rather than assert authority, emergency becomes permanence.

2070
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:56,840
Speaker 1: Hitler did not overthrow the system in one night. He

2071
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:02,560
Speaker 1: operated within it, stretched it until it snapped, and then

2072
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:08,080
Speaker 1: created his own scary version. The reichs Dog didn't fall

2073
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:15,040
Speaker 1: in flames, It fell with signatures. Boy, such a reminder.

2074
01:58:15,800 --> 01:58:29,200
Speaker 1: History doesn't repeat, but it certainly does. Right, all right,

2075
01:58:29,240 --> 01:58:31,640
Speaker 1: little question time. By the way, I might as well

2076
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:34,920
Speaker 1: share this with you so that don't name anything Hindenburg,

2077
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:37,840
Speaker 1: because Hindenburg is a politician and Hindenburg is a blimp

2078
01:58:37,960 --> 01:58:41,160
Speaker 1: all end in catastrophe. That's the real takeaway. That's my

2079
01:58:41,240 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 1: other takeaway from our time machine history of the Reichstag Fire.

2080
01:58:44,360 --> 01:58:45,720
Speaker 1: But anyway, let's take some questions.

2081
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 2: Ask Chuck.

2082
01:58:48,440 --> 01:58:49,880
Speaker 1: This comes from Jaye New York, and he says, hey,

2083
01:58:49,880 --> 01:58:52,560
Speaker 1: you mentioned last week that populism almost always leads to

2084
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: with anti semitism. It is an accurate correlation with some

2085
01:58:55,840 --> 01:58:58,600
Speaker 1: obvious historical examples Hitler's Germany. But my question is why

2086
01:58:58,640 --> 01:59:02,040
Speaker 1: does populism lead to anti stism? Is it simply because populis

2087
01:59:02,040 --> 01:59:04,840
Speaker 1: often look for a scapegoat and Jewish people provide an

2088
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:07,560
Speaker 1: easy target as a non Jewish person. I've accepted the

2089
01:59:07,560 --> 01:59:10,760
Speaker 1: correlation of populism anti Semitism. I've never really considered the

2090
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:15,400
Speaker 1: why Jay It's an excellent question. I think one is

2091
01:59:15,440 --> 01:59:23,560
Speaker 1: we're a super small minority already. Two that's so, and

2092
01:59:23,680 --> 01:59:32,160
Speaker 1: minorities get scapegoated generally. Two Jews do punch above their

2093
01:59:32,160 --> 01:59:37,400
Speaker 1: weight in corporate America, in the finance world, So in

2094
01:59:37,720 --> 01:59:44,960
Speaker 1: tough economic times it becomes if you already, especially if

2095
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:49,760
Speaker 1: you you know, look, there's less anti Semitism in South

2096
01:59:49,760 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 1: Florida because there's more Jews that live in South Florida, right,

2097
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:55,440
Speaker 1: you know, they're to me, the correlation of anti Semitism

2098
01:59:55,640 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 1: usually is where there's fewer Jews. Right wherever you see

2099
02:00:00,360 --> 02:00:02,360
Speaker 1: the least amount of Jews, you'll see the most amount

2100
02:00:02,360 --> 02:00:07,080
Speaker 1: of anti Semitism. Some of it's driven by some some

2101
02:00:08,080 --> 02:00:12,080
Speaker 1: hateful sects of Christianity, not Christianity itself, but there are

2102
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:16,839
Speaker 1: some sort of sex that most Christians would denounce that

2103
02:00:16,840 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 1: that that use religion to sort of teach hate of Jews.

2104
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:31,480
Speaker 1: But it's it. I've all, you know, looked as I

2105
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 1: look at it, and you're just like I just I

2106
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:37,000
Speaker 1: find it amusing that this tiny you know, that that

2107
02:00:37,560 --> 02:00:40,720
Speaker 1: we Jews here that were like point three percent of

2108
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:44,720
Speaker 1: the globe's population or something like that, and yet we're

2109
02:00:45,760 --> 02:00:50,560
Speaker 1: and in fact, we're still below our population high are

2110
02:00:50,640 --> 02:00:53,560
Speaker 1: below the popular what the Jewish population of the globe

2111
02:00:53,600 --> 02:00:58,920
Speaker 1: was pre World War Two. And you know, we're apparently,

2112
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:02,000
Speaker 1: you know, behind all these incredible conspiracies. So we really,

2113
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:07,480
Speaker 1: I guess, punch above our weight. But look, it's always

2114
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:12,440
Speaker 1: easy to scapegoat entities you don't know. And it's still

2115
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 1: there are still huge pockets in this country, huge pockets

2116
02:01:15,320 --> 02:01:18,160
Speaker 1: around the world that no Jewish people exist, but have

2117
02:01:18,280 --> 02:01:22,120
Speaker 1: never met one. So when you have not when you

2118
02:01:22,120 --> 02:01:25,320
Speaker 1: don't know anybody as a three dimensional figure, it's easy

2119
02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:33,680
Speaker 1: to turn them into sort of two dimensional enemies. It's

2120
02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 1: the best explanation I have, But it is, you know,

2121
02:01:41,120 --> 02:01:43,480
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I mean, it's interesting the way you

2122
02:01:43,720 --> 02:01:45,960
Speaker 1: word it, you sort of you accept you accept that

2123
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:48,560
Speaker 1: as an accurate correlation. I mean it just it just

2124
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:56,000
Speaker 1: is always what happens. I think sometimes we forget that,

2125
02:01:56,080 --> 02:02:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, bad ideas are usually not rational. Maybe that's

2126
02:02:02,000 --> 02:02:05,160
Speaker 1: a better way to look at him. Next question comes

2127
02:02:05,200 --> 02:02:10,440
Speaker 1: from Bills from Newburg, Oregon, but he says temporarily false Church, Virginia. Well,

2128
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 1: it's nice to have you as a neighbor, Bill, he says.

2129
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:15,840
Speaker 1: I think if you answer this one, then I'll enter

2130
02:02:15,880 --> 02:02:17,840
Speaker 1: the five timers club. If that means that you've read

2131
02:02:17,920 --> 02:02:20,120
Speaker 1: five of my questions on here. If you do honor

2132
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:22,760
Speaker 1: me thus, I humbly thank you. Is this the first

2133
02:02:22,800 --> 02:02:25,720
Speaker 1: administration that runs the most like a business that you've

2134
02:02:25,760 --> 02:02:28,320
Speaker 1: ever seen? Long a mantra of Republicans, I think they

2135
02:02:28,360 --> 02:02:31,120
Speaker 1: finally got their wish and this administration is run the

2136
02:02:31,160 --> 02:02:34,040
Speaker 1: most like a business or any other. Your defense of

2137
02:02:34,120 --> 02:02:36,720
Speaker 1: Casey Watperson's corporation is acting rightly in the face of

2138
02:02:36,760 --> 02:02:38,760
Speaker 1: the Epstein files made me shake my head. I think

2139
02:02:38,800 --> 02:02:41,800
Speaker 1: this administration is handling the Epstein files exactly the way

2140
02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:45,040
Speaker 1: a corporation's PR department went. I often say go Kaines,

2141
02:02:45,080 --> 02:02:47,880
Speaker 1: but this time I'll say go Seahawks, my adopted team.

2142
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:54,000
Speaker 1: Thanks billis I didn't know I was defending the Casey

2143
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:58,600
Speaker 1: Washerman Corporation ex actly rightly in the face anyway, Not

2144
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:02,880
Speaker 1: quite sure. I get the question you're asking if it's

2145
02:03:02,920 --> 02:03:06,600
Speaker 1: running more like Well, it depends on if by running

2146
02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:10,080
Speaker 1: the business, do you do what's in the best interest

2147
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 1: A business is supposed to do what's in the best

2148
02:03:12,400 --> 02:03:18,200
Speaker 1: interest of its bottom line. The question does Donald Trump

2149
02:03:18,320 --> 02:03:20,680
Speaker 1: run this administration and the best interest in the bottom

2150
02:03:20,680 --> 02:03:23,600
Speaker 1: line of the United States, or does he run it

2151
02:03:23,680 --> 02:03:26,000
Speaker 1: in the best interests of the bottom line of Donald Trump.

2152
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 1: I know that sounds a bit sort of like hyperbole,

2153
02:03:31,720 --> 02:03:35,000
Speaker 1: but I feel like he makes more decisions based on

2154
02:03:35,120 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 1: what's in his best interest in the private sector, he

2155
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:41,640
Speaker 1: and his friends, et cetera. But it's not always in

2156
02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:44,320
Speaker 1: the best interest at the bottom line of the United States.

2157
02:03:45,920 --> 02:03:51,960
Speaker 1: So that's where you know he's picking winners and losers.

2158
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:57,640
Speaker 1: So I understand the I understand the premise here question.

2159
02:03:58,160 --> 02:04:00,080
Speaker 1: I just don't see the evidence that he is running

2160
02:04:00,120 --> 02:04:03,560
Speaker 1: it like a like a If he's running it like

2161
02:04:03,600 --> 02:04:06,240
Speaker 1: a business, he's not running it like a business that

2162
02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:09,600
Speaker 1: wants to grow, expand and be successful over time. Right,

2163
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:12,200
Speaker 1: it feels like he's running it more like how does

2164
02:04:12,520 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 1: a legacy business that's trying to survive rather than thrive.

2165
02:04:20,400 --> 02:04:22,919
Speaker 1: But I've always you know, if you ran the government

2166
02:04:23,080 --> 02:04:28,840
Speaker 1: like a business, you would you probably would get rid

2167
02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:33,280
Speaker 1: of a lot of poverty measures because they you know,

2168
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:36,600
Speaker 1: you might get rid of. You might not stockpile as

2169
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:42,360
Speaker 1: much defense weaponry either, right, you know, so there'd be

2170
02:04:42,360 --> 02:04:44,520
Speaker 1: a lot of regulation, a lot more regulation you might

2171
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:50,040
Speaker 1: get rid of if you were running it like a business. Anyway,

2172
02:04:50,080 --> 02:04:52,360
Speaker 1: I don't think he's running it in the best interests

2173
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:56,720
Speaker 1: of the US government's bottom line. I think ultimately, if

2174
02:04:56,760 --> 02:04:58,960
Speaker 1: he's running it like a business, he's running it in

2175
02:04:59,040 --> 02:05:04,320
Speaker 1: the best interests of his own bottom line. I'm trying

2176
02:05:04,360 --> 02:05:06,800
Speaker 1: to see where you caught what I was saying about

2177
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:11,200
Speaker 1: Casey Wasserman, and how you any I wasn't defect. I

2178
02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:16,200
Speaker 1: look at the Casey Wasserman situation and think, you know,

2179
02:05:16,200 --> 02:05:18,520
Speaker 1: I was talking with the journalists who said that they

2180
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 1: they had a line. The way they were dealing with

2181
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 1: it is anybody with Epstein ties pre two thousand and seven,

2182
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 1: they weren't going to treat treat like what were you

2183
02:05:29,720 --> 02:05:34,880
Speaker 1: thinking that they were willing to give anybody preos basically

2184
02:05:34,960 --> 02:05:37,720
Speaker 1: pre charges being brought against him some benefit of that.

2185
02:05:39,080 --> 02:05:41,440
Speaker 1: There's a middle ground of people that sort of still

2186
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 1: kept in touch with him and then until he you know,

2187
02:05:44,000 --> 02:05:46,919
Speaker 1: then and then walked after that, and then there's anybody

2188
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:49,440
Speaker 1: that you dealt with him after two thousand and nine,

2189
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:52,240
Speaker 1: you don't, right, Wasserman is one of the few that

2190
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:57,160
Speaker 1: is being punished for emails that go back to twenty

2191
02:05:57,200 --> 02:06:01,320
Speaker 1: oh two, twenty three that don't seem to go there.

2192
02:06:01,320 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 1: So that would be one, but it is, you know,

2193
02:06:05,720 --> 02:06:08,280
Speaker 1: and yes, I do agree that the Epstein files in

2194
02:06:08,320 --> 02:06:11,440
Speaker 1: that sense are being Yes, the handling of that on

2195
02:06:11,560 --> 02:06:14,400
Speaker 1: a pr level, I'll give you that that right, The

2196
02:06:14,760 --> 02:06:17,000
Speaker 1: best way of business would do is just put it

2197
02:06:17,040 --> 02:06:19,880
Speaker 1: all out there, make every you know, don't organize it

2198
02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:22,320
Speaker 1: for people, make other people have to figure it out.

2199
02:06:22,320 --> 02:06:24,480
Speaker 1: The problem with this is that every couple of days

2200
02:06:24,480 --> 02:06:26,680
Speaker 1: there's like a new It feels like a new development

2201
02:06:26,720 --> 02:06:30,240
Speaker 1: because you know, somebody is you know, methodically, you know,

2202
02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:34,280
Speaker 1: there's hundreds and thousands of people methodically going through these

2203
02:06:34,880 --> 02:06:38,800
Speaker 1: these files, and there's always something new to find. And

2204
02:06:39,000 --> 02:06:41,720
Speaker 1: again you look around, I mean, I miss this. I'm

2205
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:44,440
Speaker 1: a I'm an adjunct professor at USC. Apparently we had

2206
02:06:44,440 --> 02:06:47,000
Speaker 1: some USC professors get caught up in the Epstein files.

2207
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:51,400
Speaker 1: So this has been like a machine gun that went

2208
02:06:51,440 --> 02:06:58,840
Speaker 1: off erratically and bullets went everywhere, and everybody's paying a

2209
02:06:58,880 --> 02:07:01,600
Speaker 1: price except Donald Trump. I think Donald Trump's paying a

2210
02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:04,440
Speaker 1: price too, right, you know, is he going to pay

2211
02:07:04,440 --> 02:07:07,320
Speaker 1: a direct price or does he pay an indirect political price?

2212
02:07:07,360 --> 02:07:12,960
Speaker 1: And I think he's paying the indirect political price more importantly, Bill,

2213
02:07:13,320 --> 02:07:15,400
Speaker 1: if that is your five timer, congrats, welcome to the

2214
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:19,320
Speaker 1: five Timers club. Maybe we should get mugs or something,

2215
02:07:19,400 --> 02:07:24,280
Speaker 1: get some swag for that as well. Next question comes

2216
02:07:24,280 --> 02:07:27,040
Speaker 1: from Philip in Biloxi. He says, hey, they're my Congressman.

2217
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:31,880
Speaker 1: Mike Eazell surprisingly is embracing the Supreme Court's decision. He

2218
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:35,280
Speaker 1: was interviewed locally on WLOX where he said, and I'm paraphrasing,

2219
02:07:35,320 --> 02:07:36,680
Speaker 1: we may not like it, but the Supreme Court is

2220
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:38,000
Speaker 1: the final word, and we have to obey the law

2221
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:40,360
Speaker 1: of the land. He's also running a local radio that

2222
02:07:40,600 --> 02:07:44,040
Speaker 1: says something like, thanks to Trump and Eazel, the economy

2223
02:07:44,080 --> 02:07:46,200
Speaker 1: is booming and we're living in a golden age, which

2224
02:07:46,240 --> 02:07:48,280
Speaker 1: is why I say it's surprising because he normally echoes

2225
02:07:48,320 --> 02:07:50,240
Speaker 1: all of Trump's talking points. Thanks also for being the

2226
02:07:50,280 --> 02:07:54,480
Speaker 1: only national voice I know that occasionally speaks about Mississippi politics,

2227
02:07:54,560 --> 02:08:01,960
Speaker 1: Philip and Biloxi. You know, that's very heartening to hear.

2228
02:08:02,160 --> 02:08:06,280
Speaker 1: And I think it is a reminder that that I

2229
02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:09,720
Speaker 1: do take the more optimistic approach about elected officials, that

2230
02:08:09,800 --> 02:08:12,120
Speaker 1: most of them do want to accept the structure of

2231
02:08:12,160 --> 02:08:15,360
Speaker 1: the constitution. That really the most abusive, the person that

2232
02:08:15,840 --> 02:08:17,640
Speaker 1: has the least amount of respect for it is the

2233
02:08:17,640 --> 02:08:20,720
Speaker 1: guy sitting in the oval office. And and yes, you

2234
02:08:20,840 --> 02:08:24,080
Speaker 1: certainly have people who don't want to look like they're

2235
02:08:24,080 --> 02:08:26,320
Speaker 1: on the wrong side. And notice how you know that

2236
02:08:27,800 --> 02:08:31,240
Speaker 1: there's different ways you can you can sort of accept, well,

2237
02:08:31,400 --> 02:08:35,720
Speaker 1: Supreme Court the law of the land. He doesn't want

2238
02:08:35,720 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 1: to get caught being anti Trump, but he may be

2239
02:08:38,760 --> 02:08:43,560
Speaker 1: very happy that this happened, you know. So the point

2240
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:46,880
Speaker 1: is is that given where he is at, you know,

2241
02:08:47,520 --> 02:08:51,360
Speaker 1: I think the the he couldn't get caught pushing, you know,

2242
02:08:51,480 --> 02:08:54,920
Speaker 1: publicly celebrating the Supreme Court ruling. So I think there's

2243
02:08:54,960 --> 02:08:58,240
Speaker 1: a difference. Right, I'm curious to see who celebrates it,

2244
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:01,240
Speaker 1: who uses the this is a moment. You know, who

2245
02:09:01,320 --> 02:09:04,920
Speaker 1: else is Don Bacon not running for reelection? Right? Who

2246
02:09:04,920 --> 02:09:08,880
Speaker 1: else goes that far? Out on the limb on that.

2247
02:09:09,000 --> 02:09:14,520
Speaker 1: But and let's see, you know, what does he do

2248
02:09:14,640 --> 02:09:17,680
Speaker 1: if he does have to vote in Congress on any

2249
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:19,720
Speaker 1: of these things. I'm not convinced that Trump wants to

2250
02:09:19,760 --> 02:09:24,800
Speaker 1: go do that, but we'll see. Next question comes from

2251
02:09:24,840 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 1: an elected official, John m imperially, a mayor from New Jersey,

2252
02:09:30,480 --> 02:09:32,800
Speaker 1: and he writes, first, Chuck, thank you for the podcast

2253
02:09:32,920 --> 02:09:35,840
Speaker 1: Political Junkie and amateur Historians Dream Come True. I'm the

2254
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:37,440
Speaker 1: mayor of a small town in New Jersey and frequently

2255
02:09:37,480 --> 02:09:40,080
Speaker 1: electure on American history and specifically the Constitution from a

2256
02:09:40,160 --> 02:09:42,840
Speaker 1: quote citizen's point of view. So here's my question. What

2257
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:45,560
Speaker 1: if the Constitutional Convention had been held in the spring

2258
02:09:45,680 --> 02:09:47,720
Speaker 1: or fall of seventeen eighty seven rather than the summer.

2259
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:50,120
Speaker 1: My point is that the delegates of the Constitutional Convention

2260
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:51,920
Speaker 1: could not wait to get out of the hot, muggy,

2261
02:09:51,960 --> 02:09:55,560
Speaker 1: miserable Philadelphia that summer. The result of brilliant constitution and principle,

2262
02:09:55,560 --> 02:09:58,320
Speaker 1: but with way too many particulars rushed over and not

2263
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:00,640
Speaker 1: properly thought out. One of the thought for you is

2264
02:10:00,720 --> 02:10:03,000
Speaker 1: to throw out in your podcast, exactly who are the

2265
02:10:03,000 --> 02:10:05,400
Speaker 1: founding fathers? The fifty six men who signed the Declaration

2266
02:10:05,400 --> 02:10:08,160
Speaker 1: of Independence, the thirty nine men who signed the Constitution

2267
02:10:08,640 --> 02:10:10,880
Speaker 1: or the six men who signed both. And when I asked,

2268
02:10:10,960 --> 02:10:12,840
Speaker 1: who do the six men who signed both are, no

2269
02:10:12,880 --> 02:10:16,000
Speaker 1: one gets it right. They are George Climber, George Reed,

2270
02:10:16,440 --> 02:10:24,680
Speaker 1: Roger Sherman, Robert Morris, James Wilson, and Benjamin Franklin. Mayor Imperiality.

2271
02:10:25,000 --> 02:10:26,760
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to come visit your town.

2272
02:10:27,400 --> 02:10:31,880
Speaker 1: Love love hearing this. Appreciate you loving the history part.

2273
02:10:33,280 --> 02:10:35,840
Speaker 1: I think you had to sign both. I think to

2274
02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:39,080
Speaker 1: be founding father. So let's go at the six right

2275
02:10:39,160 --> 02:10:42,520
Speaker 1: they should they shouldn't. We probably should make a bigger

2276
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:45,960
Speaker 1: deal out of them. You know, I have confessed a

2277
02:10:45,960 --> 02:10:49,160
Speaker 1: few times that I'm a sports card junkie. I guess

2278
02:10:49,160 --> 02:10:53,680
Speaker 1: you called it a baseball card junkie. In two thousand

2279
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:57,240
Speaker 1: and nine, Tops put out an American History set and

2280
02:10:57,280 --> 02:11:00,160
Speaker 1: it was great. It had like little insert sets of

2281
02:11:00,200 --> 02:11:02,920
Speaker 1: Medal of Honor winners, and every Medal of Honor winner

2282
02:11:03,040 --> 02:11:05,800
Speaker 1: up through two thousand and nine gave you a little

2283
02:11:05,840 --> 02:11:08,560
Speaker 1: and I I just loved it. I you know, my

2284
02:11:08,880 --> 02:11:11,080
Speaker 1: daughter was five at the time, and so I made

2285
02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:12,880
Speaker 1: a big deal and we built we have this great

2286
02:11:12,920 --> 02:11:16,320
Speaker 1: album of it and all this stuff, and and it

2287
02:11:16,360 --> 02:11:18,480
Speaker 1: has a whole bunch of subsets of those that signed

2288
02:11:18,520 --> 02:11:21,360
Speaker 1: the Constitution and those that signed the Declaration of Independence.

2289
02:11:22,040 --> 02:11:24,560
Speaker 1: But we really ought to say, make a bigger deal

2290
02:11:24,640 --> 02:11:27,840
Speaker 1: on the six. You know, and you know, at least

2291
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:30,120
Speaker 1: one is a name that most people already know of,

2292
02:11:30,280 --> 02:11:34,040
Speaker 1: Benjamin Frank. So it's a it's a pretty good it's

2293
02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:41,800
Speaker 1: a pretty good place to start. But that's a kudos.

2294
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 1: Let's make those Let's make the uh the founding six.

2295
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:48,760
Speaker 1: Let's maybe over time we give them more and more

2296
02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:52,000
Speaker 1: of their due. Thanks for listening and thanks for your service.

2297
02:11:53,400 --> 02:11:55,880
Speaker 1: John another New Jersey and writes in this is John

2298
02:11:55,880 --> 02:11:57,800
Speaker 1: from New Jersey. I don't think it's the same, John,

2299
02:11:58,920 --> 02:12:00,800
Speaker 1: an he rights was waiting to hear your thoughts on

2300
02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:03,440
Speaker 1: these two news bits. One that Gallup ending its presidential

2301
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:07,080
Speaker 1: tracking poll in two and Alila Mahea is beating Tom

2302
02:12:07,120 --> 02:12:09,560
Speaker 1: Malinowski in New Jersey special election. I think it's upsetting

2303
02:12:09,600 --> 02:12:11,960
Speaker 1: the Gallup is choosing to stop polling presidential approval rather

2304
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:14,200
Speaker 1: than report on the current administration's coort rating. Do you

2305
02:12:14,240 --> 02:12:16,680
Speaker 1: see other firms mimicking this? And what are your thoughts

2306
02:12:16,720 --> 02:12:18,640
Speaker 1: on Mahia's win. I'm curious about how the June primary

2307
02:12:18,640 --> 02:12:20,760
Speaker 1: will go if there's more of a consolidation in that primary,

2308
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:22,960
Speaker 1: But it looks like the establishment is already called lest

2309
02:12:23,000 --> 02:12:27,800
Speaker 1: a rounder. I did some Gallup thoughts on my sub

2310
02:12:27,840 --> 02:12:31,440
Speaker 1: stack last week. If you wanted to read those. You know,

2311
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:35,000
Speaker 1: it's funny when you're in this, when you're making content

2312
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:39,920
Speaker 1: in multiple places, you touch everything. You don't know if

2313
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:43,040
Speaker 1: you've touched everything in every place, and I have not,

2314
02:12:43,920 --> 02:12:47,040
Speaker 1: you are correct. I have not touched New Jersey eleven here.

2315
02:12:47,120 --> 02:12:48,760
Speaker 1: I've done it in a couple other spots. I think

2316
02:12:48,760 --> 02:12:51,640
Speaker 1: I did it with the Silissa podcast, and we haven't

2317
02:12:51,640 --> 02:12:53,480
Speaker 1: touched and Gallop. I don't think I mentioned on the

2318
02:12:53,520 --> 02:12:56,400
Speaker 1: podcast maybe quickly in passing, but I did write up

2319
02:12:56,400 --> 02:13:02,040
Speaker 1: on gal I look, first of all, parse the announcement

2320
02:13:02,240 --> 02:13:05,280
Speaker 1: very very carefully from Gallup. Gallup said they're going to

2321
02:13:05,280 --> 02:13:10,880
Speaker 1: stop publicly releasing their job approval on the president. I

2322
02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:14,320
Speaker 1: didn't get clarification of whether they're not actually asking the question.

2323
02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:18,960
Speaker 1: It's absolutely malpracticed, and not ask the question on any

2324
02:13:19,000 --> 02:13:22,200
Speaker 1: survey you're doing on anything in the public policy space

2325
02:13:22,240 --> 02:13:25,120
Speaker 1: at all, because you've got it is it is a

2326
02:13:25,280 --> 02:13:30,360
Speaker 1: helpful way to at least understand how partisan folks are

2327
02:13:30,360 --> 02:13:33,760
Speaker 1: behaving where they lie. It gives you a better sense

2328
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:38,240
Speaker 1: of which policy ideas have political traction versus those that

2329
02:13:38,360 --> 02:13:41,280
Speaker 1: may have, you know, or less driven by ideology, more

2330
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:47,440
Speaker 1: driven by popularity. It's it's just a it's it's it

2331
02:13:47,480 --> 02:13:53,800
Speaker 1: would be malpracticed not to have that piece of data

2332
02:13:53,880 --> 02:13:58,760
Speaker 1: with you. It is hard not to wonder Gallups Primary.

2333
02:13:59,000 --> 02:14:02,640
Speaker 1: You know, they do a lot of survey work and

2334
02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:05,920
Speaker 1: private survey work, and they have a lot of federal contracts.

2335
02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:12,000
Speaker 1: The lack of trust anybody has in this country right

2336
02:14:12,000 --> 02:14:15,240
Speaker 1: now of any corporation and Donald Trump is amazing because

2337
02:14:16,120 --> 02:14:19,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people immediately looked up the amount of

2338
02:14:19,560 --> 02:14:22,960
Speaker 1: federal contracts that Gallup has with the government, sees that

2339
02:14:23,080 --> 02:14:26,400
Speaker 1: was quite a bit and could easily see right, Donald

2340
02:14:26,440 --> 02:14:29,240
Speaker 1: Trump already was mad at Politico, So then everybody in

2341
02:14:29,280 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 1: the government had to cancel their political subscriptions, whether they

2342
02:14:32,280 --> 02:14:38,160
Speaker 1: had a political produce subscription somewhere, et cetera. And it

2343
02:14:38,200 --> 02:14:40,520
Speaker 1: sounds like Gallup was worried about its bottom line and

2344
02:14:40,600 --> 02:14:43,760
Speaker 1: worried about its business. It's possible they thought there was

2345
02:14:44,040 --> 02:14:46,280
Speaker 1: no upside to it, since a whole bunch of other

2346
02:14:46,280 --> 02:14:49,040
Speaker 1: people were putting it out publicly. Nobody was saying Gallups

2347
02:14:49,120 --> 02:14:51,880
Speaker 1: was the best of the polls that are out there.

2348
02:14:51,920 --> 02:14:54,360
Speaker 1: Gallup had the best brand name out there, but their

2349
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:56,320
Speaker 1: poll for a long time hadn't been the best poll.

2350
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:00,400
Speaker 1: It had been sort of problematic for a long time.

2351
02:15:00,720 --> 02:15:02,720
Speaker 1: You know. I remember when they stopped, they had a

2352
02:15:02,800 --> 02:15:07,240
Speaker 1: daily tracking pole, which was a total mess because while

2353
02:15:07,280 --> 02:15:10,720
Speaker 1: I don't think their methodology changed, how people interpreted the

2354
02:15:10,800 --> 02:15:13,640
Speaker 1: changes just created all sorts of friction, and they did

2355
02:15:13,640 --> 02:15:16,760
Speaker 1: a terrible job of communicating when they're when the tracking

2356
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:21,800
Speaker 1: pole would change. So, you know, I think Gallup got

2357
02:15:21,800 --> 02:15:23,920
Speaker 1: out of the public polling business a long time ago.

2358
02:15:24,040 --> 02:15:26,200
Speaker 1: Right when it used to be the CNN USA Today

2359
02:15:26,240 --> 02:15:31,160
Speaker 1: Gallup pole, that was the you know, basically the only

2360
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:33,520
Speaker 1: pole that was considered better than that one was NBC

2361
02:15:33,600 --> 02:15:37,400
Speaker 1: News Wall Street Journal. But over time, the CNN the

2362
02:15:37,680 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 1: Gallup pole had shown a lot more instability, and I

2363
02:15:41,320 --> 02:15:44,920
Speaker 1: know that we we certainly stopped using it as a

2364
02:15:45,120 --> 02:15:47,720
Speaker 1: reliable indicator. So I'm not going to sit here and

2365
02:15:47,800 --> 02:15:50,240
Speaker 1: call the Gallup pole, you know, but I but it

2366
02:15:50,280 --> 02:15:55,360
Speaker 1: would be it would be malpractice, not the doing any

2367
02:15:55,400 --> 02:15:58,920
Speaker 1: survey that you do public, public or private in order

2368
02:15:58,920 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 1: to understand your survey better, in order to have a baseline,

2369
02:16:01,680 --> 02:16:04,960
Speaker 1: in order to know your your your survey isn't totally

2370
02:16:04,960 --> 02:16:08,400
Speaker 1: out of whack. You know, job job approval is one

2371
02:16:08,400 --> 02:16:10,720
Speaker 1: of those ubiquitous questions that helps you and you know,

2372
02:16:11,080 --> 02:16:14,040
Speaker 1: understand whether you basically have a you know, it's a

2373
02:16:14,160 --> 02:16:16,120
Speaker 1: the fact that so many other posters do it, it

2374
02:16:16,160 --> 02:16:18,480
Speaker 1: serves as almost a check to make sure you're you

2375
02:16:18,520 --> 02:16:20,200
Speaker 1: don't have a you know, you know for sure, do

2376
02:16:20,200 --> 02:16:22,200
Speaker 1: you have an out could you have an outlier survey,

2377
02:16:22,560 --> 02:16:27,480
Speaker 1: et cetera. So do pay attention to the fact that

2378
02:16:27,520 --> 02:16:29,280
Speaker 1: they just simply said they stopped they were going to

2379
02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:33,840
Speaker 1: stop publishing the result. Again, I can't imagine anybody would

2380
02:16:33,840 --> 02:16:37,600
Speaker 1: actually stop asking it. I mean again, it's a it's

2381
02:16:37,640 --> 02:16:40,119
Speaker 1: it's one of those questions. It's almost like a stabilizing question.

2382
02:16:40,160 --> 02:16:42,879
Speaker 1: It helps you understand whether your your survey is is

2383
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:47,640
Speaker 1: A is a trustworthy uh A trustworthy survey. As for

2384
02:16:47,680 --> 02:16:50,640
Speaker 1: the MAHI, I think look that the most fascinating aspect

2385
02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:53,039
Speaker 1: of this was the aggressiveness of apac Right. They wanted

2386
02:16:53,080 --> 02:16:57,480
Speaker 1: to take Malanski down. They went after them hard, and

2387
02:16:58,560 --> 02:17:03,520
Speaker 1: they were successful. They is the negatives of Malinowski, and

2388
02:17:03,600 --> 02:17:06,920
Speaker 1: they see but the candidate they were hoping to help

2389
02:17:07,000 --> 02:17:10,760
Speaker 1: ended up finishing third, and the candidate that benefited from

2390
02:17:10,920 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 1: APEX attack ads in Malinowski was somebody further to the

2391
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:19,120
Speaker 1: left than Malinowski and perhaps just as unfriendly to some

2392
02:17:19,160 --> 02:17:24,039
Speaker 1: of APAX issues as Malanowski had become. So it was

2393
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:27,360
Speaker 1: really one of those a reminder that when you do

2394
02:17:27,520 --> 02:17:34,440
Speaker 1: attack ads and multi candidate races in primaries, know what

2395
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:37,519
Speaker 1: you're trying to do. If you're trying to take somebody out,

2396
02:17:38,280 --> 02:17:41,200
Speaker 1: do know who could benefit you know? And are you

2397
02:17:41,320 --> 02:17:43,200
Speaker 1: sure you're going to end up with somebody that isn't

2398
02:17:43,240 --> 02:17:47,320
Speaker 1: going to be more more of a problem for your issues?

2399
02:17:47,840 --> 02:17:51,000
Speaker 1: In this case, I think it was. It was that,

2400
02:17:51,160 --> 02:17:53,520
Speaker 1: I think it And this is where when interest when

2401
02:17:53,520 --> 02:18:00,280
Speaker 1: a big interest group goes after somebody, sometimes it's you know,

2402
02:18:01,760 --> 02:18:04,080
Speaker 1: Canada and candidate be cancel each other, it's out and

2403
02:18:04,120 --> 02:18:08,120
Speaker 1: a candidate ce ends up benefiting. We got some three

2404
02:18:08,160 --> 02:18:10,039
Speaker 1: way prime. We got a three way primary coming up

2405
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:12,160
Speaker 1: in Texas, Right, We're going to see something like that

2406
02:18:12,280 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 1: take place. Right, does Wesley Hunt benefit from all the

2407
02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:21,160
Speaker 1: cornant attack ads on Paxton right? Rather than Cornyn. I mean,

2408
02:18:21,200 --> 02:18:24,360
Speaker 1: it certainly looks like Cornan has not benefited from all

2409
02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:28,200
Speaker 1: these attacks on Paxton, but instead the demo generic Democratic

2410
02:18:28,280 --> 02:18:33,119
Speaker 1: vote has benefited when matched up against Paxton in general

2411
02:18:33,160 --> 02:18:36,600
Speaker 1: election matchups, and Paxton's negatives keep going up, but it

2412
02:18:36,720 --> 02:18:39,560
Speaker 1: is not helping Cornyon. So it is a reminder that

2413
02:18:39,680 --> 02:18:44,320
Speaker 1: basically negative ads can work, but don't assume those negative

2414
02:18:44,320 --> 02:18:47,160
Speaker 1: ads will accrue to the benefit of another candidate. That

2415
02:18:47,160 --> 02:18:49,280
Speaker 1: if you want to benefit, it could always accrue to

2416
02:18:49,320 --> 02:18:55,840
Speaker 1: a third candidate. But as for look, I think I certainly,

2417
02:18:55,920 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 1: you know, I see why everybody's going ahead and rilly

2418
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:02,840
Speaker 1: knocked off somebody who used to have the title Corners

2419
02:19:04,720 --> 02:19:07,640
Speaker 1: and seem to win despite not being the biggest spender

2420
02:19:07,760 --> 02:19:11,760
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So I understand why the establishment

2421
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:14,800
Speaker 1: at this point is like, well, might as well, might

2422
02:19:14,800 --> 02:19:25,400
Speaker 1: as well get behind money. Next question comes from Robert Leeds.

2423
02:19:25,720 --> 02:19:27,800
Speaker 1: Any rights, Hey check meet the press, missus. You I

2424
02:19:27,840 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 1: worked in several campaigns. Anyway, I'm a Gold trader and

2425
02:19:29,920 --> 02:19:31,880
Speaker 1: have said for years that during Trump's first term and

2426
02:19:31,920 --> 02:19:34,640
Speaker 1: again during the second, Gold seems to do weird things.

2427
02:19:34,680 --> 02:19:36,560
Speaker 1: On the eve of the job's report, huge sell orders

2428
02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:38,600
Speaker 1: would come in overnight when the market was strong, gold

2429
02:19:38,680 --> 02:19:40,960
Speaker 1: would crash for five seconds, go back up, and then

2430
02:19:41,000 --> 02:19:43,600
Speaker 1: a bearsh report will come out at eight thirty. After

2431
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,920
Speaker 1: seeing your podcast today, I wanted to share this. You're

2432
02:19:46,959 --> 02:19:48,840
Speaker 1: doing a great job. Thanks. Well. What he was talking

2433
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:53,680
Speaker 1: about was this weird again. And I think we've got

2434
02:19:53,680 --> 02:19:57,480
Speaker 1: to get some regulatory structure around these prediction markets versus

2435
02:19:57,520 --> 02:20:01,039
Speaker 1: gambling markets, et cetera. But there's got to be a

2436
02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:05,720
Speaker 1: way to deal with fraud. And somebody gained the jobs numbers.

2437
02:20:05,800 --> 02:20:08,280
Speaker 1: Right when Peter Navarro goes out warns of a bad

2438
02:20:08,360 --> 02:20:11,400
Speaker 1: jobs report, jobs report turns out much better the next

2439
02:20:11,480 --> 02:20:13,920
Speaker 1: day than what he went out there. And of all

2440
02:20:14,040 --> 02:20:16,920
Speaker 1: people to go out there as somebody who's already of

2441
02:20:17,320 --> 02:20:24,160
Speaker 1: questionable credibility on his information in general, right, that just

2442
02:20:24,600 --> 02:20:30,080
Speaker 1: smells crazy. And you know this is where I you know,

2443
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:34,880
Speaker 1: we're going full speed into these new markets without you know,

2444
02:20:34,920 --> 02:20:37,960
Speaker 1: we were building the ideas first and trying to come

2445
02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:42,080
Speaker 1: up with the regulation later. Very hard to put regulation

2446
02:20:42,560 --> 02:20:46,320
Speaker 1: on something that's already left the station. And I'm concerned

2447
02:20:46,360 --> 02:20:48,520
Speaker 1: about this, but we don't seem to have a very good,

2448
02:20:49,000 --> 02:20:53,040
Speaker 1: very interesting what you say on gold, You've just explained

2449
02:20:53,080 --> 02:20:56,640
Speaker 1: why I do not get involved in those markets at all.

2450
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:00,200
Speaker 1: I don't trust them. I think there's the people that

2451
02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:04,160
Speaker 1: are most involved are doing it as hedge hedges and

2452
02:21:04,240 --> 02:21:08,520
Speaker 1: games and gaming it in some form, and those are

2453
02:21:08,560 --> 02:21:12,960
Speaker 1: just not That's not where my comfort level is, you know,

2454
02:21:13,360 --> 02:21:19,320
Speaker 1: like I like, I'm more of them. My financial advisor

2455
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:22,200
Speaker 1: and I were more of the warm Buffett acolytes, right,

2456
02:21:24,520 --> 02:21:29,720
Speaker 1: like investing in companies that people use, you know, durable goods,

2457
02:21:29,920 --> 02:21:32,600
Speaker 1: not always durable goods, but some durable goods, some texts

2458
02:21:32,600 --> 02:21:36,120
Speaker 1: on this, on that, but you know, companies that actually succeed,

2459
02:21:36,200 --> 02:21:41,840
Speaker 1: not just hypotheticals. Next question comes from Dan in Fairfax.

2460
02:21:41,840 --> 02:21:43,800
Speaker 1: He goes, hey, I consider myself an informed voter, but

2461
02:21:43,879 --> 02:21:45,800
Speaker 1: I am lost when it comes to this issue. From

2462
02:21:45,840 --> 02:21:48,080
Speaker 1: what I gather, a judge in Tazewell County has ruled

2463
02:21:48,080 --> 02:21:50,920
Speaker 1: twice that the redistricting effort shouldn't proceed, but the state

2464
02:21:50,920 --> 02:21:53,160
Speaker 1: government is moving ahead anyway. I also read that state

2465
02:21:53,200 --> 02:21:55,840
Speaker 1: democrats think any lawsuit of posing the measure can only

2466
02:21:55,840 --> 02:21:58,040
Speaker 1: be filed in Richmond, which is really confusing. Further, the

2467
02:21:58,080 --> 02:22:00,240
Speaker 1: state Supreme Court doesn't seem to think this is anhe

2468
02:22:00,280 --> 02:22:03,080
Speaker 1: requiring urgency can you explain what's going on. Thank you,

2469
02:22:03,160 --> 02:22:06,000
Speaker 1: Dan in Fairfax. Look, it's a fair point. I think

2470
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:09,720
Speaker 1: the the the legis the Democrat The Democrats and the

2471
02:22:09,800 --> 02:22:12,320
Speaker 1: legislature continue to believe that the Supreme Court is going

2472
02:22:12,360 --> 02:22:14,720
Speaker 1: to overrule this staswell judged like they did the last time.

2473
02:22:17,400 --> 02:22:20,880
Speaker 1: But let's just step back. You know, I find this

2474
02:22:20,959 --> 02:22:24,199
Speaker 1: whole campaign. I've seen the ads, the ads for Yes

2475
02:22:25,680 --> 02:22:29,520
Speaker 1: use every talking point I was using about why there

2476
02:22:29,560 --> 02:22:33,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't be re redistricting around, and it was just like confusing,

2477
02:22:33,680 --> 02:22:35,400
Speaker 1: Like when you hear an ad or you're like, well,

2478
02:22:35,400 --> 02:22:36,760
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I agree with that. You know,

2479
02:22:36,800 --> 02:22:38,440
Speaker 1: there shouldn't be politics in this. We got to take

2480
02:22:38,440 --> 02:22:40,160
Speaker 1: the politics out of this. That's why you've got to

2481
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,920
Speaker 1: vote yes. You're like, wait what And I sit here

2482
02:22:42,920 --> 02:22:46,520
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm you know, am I being gas

2483
02:22:46,600 --> 02:22:52,600
Speaker 1: lit by this ad campaign? Look? Ends, justify the means

2484
02:22:52,640 --> 02:22:58,080
Speaker 1: is bad policy, period And ultimately that's what this entire

2485
02:22:58,160 --> 02:23:00,760
Speaker 1: effort in Virginia is about. Ends, just find the means.

2486
02:23:01,320 --> 02:23:03,120
Speaker 1: We have to do this now because of what they're

2487
02:23:03,160 --> 02:23:04,640
Speaker 1: doing in Texas. We have to do this now, and

2488
02:23:04,640 --> 02:23:06,200
Speaker 1: what they might do in Florida, what they might do

2489
02:23:06,240 --> 02:23:10,039
Speaker 1: in Indiana, what they might do in Missouri. Uh, I

2490
02:23:10,080 --> 02:23:12,200
Speaker 1: get it, politics, ain't bean bag. You've heard me say

2491
02:23:12,200 --> 02:23:14,920
Speaker 1: it before on the Virginia front. Your right to be confused.

2492
02:23:14,959 --> 02:23:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm very confused too. Some of it had you know.

2493
02:23:21,080 --> 02:23:25,680
Speaker 1: I Ultimately it feels as if these state supreme courts

2494
02:23:25,879 --> 02:23:28,120
Speaker 1: are you know, and what we've seen, the courts are

2495
02:23:28,400 --> 02:23:35,200
Speaker 1: ultimately going to side with uh legislatures on this because ultimately, right,

2496
02:23:35,280 --> 02:23:38,680
Speaker 1: that's that's who has the supremacy here is the legislature.

2497
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:40,760
Speaker 1: Uh And if this is what they've chosen to do,

2498
02:23:40,840 --> 02:23:44,480
Speaker 1: and they're going to the voters. So I suspect that

2499
02:23:44,760 --> 02:23:47,879
Speaker 1: this stay you know, I guess it's weird early voting

2500
02:23:47,920 --> 02:23:50,400
Speaker 1: starts before the end of the stay, right. I think

2501
02:23:50,400 --> 02:23:52,720
Speaker 1: early voting is supposed to begin the six and this

2502
02:23:53,640 --> 02:23:57,920
Speaker 1: stay this this, this is supposed to basically be a

2503
02:23:57,680 --> 02:24:00,360
Speaker 1: not a statement, sort of an injunction against this that's

2504
02:24:00,360 --> 02:24:08,240
Speaker 1: till the eighteenth. I think it's extraordinarily confusing. I have

2505
02:24:08,280 --> 02:24:10,440
Speaker 1: a feeling this map's going to pass pretty but this

2506
02:24:10,640 --> 02:24:13,279
Speaker 1: amendment to do this is going to pass pretty easily.

2507
02:24:15,400 --> 02:24:17,280
Speaker 1: But I'm just I don't think this is a good

2508
02:24:17,320 --> 02:24:22,320
Speaker 1: long term look for Democrats. And I you know, I understand, Hey,

2509
02:24:22,640 --> 02:24:24,360
Speaker 1: you got to get power now, you'll worry about how

2510
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:26,320
Speaker 1: it looks later. Is the mindset. But again it goes

2511
02:24:26,320 --> 02:24:29,480
Speaker 1: back to ends justify the means. And we're watching an

2512
02:24:29,600 --> 02:24:34,200
Speaker 1: entire Republican party that's probably going to regret at some

2513
02:24:34,320 --> 02:24:36,640
Speaker 1: point being an ends justify the means party. And they've

2514
02:24:36,680 --> 02:24:41,400
Speaker 1: been that party in particular since certain certain orange haired

2515
02:24:41,400 --> 02:24:49,680
Speaker 1: man strode down an escalator. And it is, it is,

2516
02:24:49,800 --> 02:24:53,720
Speaker 1: it is. I can tell you this. I know Spamberger

2517
02:24:53,800 --> 02:24:58,120
Speaker 1: is going to regret having to start this partisan and

2518
02:24:58,440 --> 02:25:03,160
Speaker 1: it's interesting how she is having you know, some of

2519
02:25:03,160 --> 02:25:07,320
Speaker 1: it is just because the legislatures this there, this redistrict effort,

2520
02:25:07,480 --> 02:25:10,600
Speaker 1: you know, they vary, the clock is sticking, you know,

2521
02:25:10,720 --> 02:25:12,840
Speaker 1: they they literally had to move this in days and

2522
02:25:12,920 --> 02:25:15,920
Speaker 1: get it done even before she got sworn in. And

2523
02:25:15,959 --> 02:25:18,800
Speaker 1: it has put her more as a partisan actor than

2524
02:25:18,840 --> 02:25:22,160
Speaker 1: I think I ever thought she would want to be,

2525
02:25:22,480 --> 02:25:25,560
Speaker 1: and look like very curious to see, by the way,

2526
02:25:25,600 --> 02:25:27,920
Speaker 1: what her State of the Union response comes across. As

2527
02:25:28,560 --> 02:25:30,880
Speaker 1: I think when you're when you're the Democrats, it's who

2528
02:25:30,920 --> 02:25:33,000
Speaker 1: i'd pick, right, you want to pick somebody who just

2529
02:25:33,040 --> 02:25:35,520
Speaker 1: won and won by a lot from a state that

2530
02:25:35,680 --> 02:25:40,879
Speaker 1: used to be you know, and share her profile from

2531
02:25:40,879 --> 02:25:43,400
Speaker 1: the national security space. So I I you know, I

2532
02:25:43,440 --> 02:25:50,039
Speaker 1: think I get why they picked her. I do, I mean,

2533
02:25:50,120 --> 02:25:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm I'm there's two ways about sort of her tenure.

2534
02:25:53,360 --> 02:25:55,360
Speaker 1: If you're going to do hardcore politics, better to do

2535
02:25:55,400 --> 02:25:57,840
Speaker 1: at the start of your term, and then you moderate

2536
02:25:57,920 --> 02:26:02,120
Speaker 1: us the term goes on. On the other hand, it's

2537
02:26:02,160 --> 02:26:04,880
Speaker 1: hard to make. You know, this is a first impression

2538
02:26:04,879 --> 02:26:08,959
Speaker 1: for a lot of voters in Virginia. But Dan, I'm

2539
02:26:09,000 --> 02:26:11,520
Speaker 1: as confused, and the ad campaigns are only more confusing.

2540
02:26:11,560 --> 02:26:15,080
Speaker 1: But look, it's gonna pass because this will be a

2541
02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:19,400
Speaker 1: super small turnout election and we already know those that

2542
02:26:19,480 --> 02:26:23,320
Speaker 1: are fired up on any messaging that involves checking Trump

2543
02:26:24,360 --> 02:26:27,280
Speaker 1: are gonna win the Battle of Turner. All right, last

2544
02:26:27,320 --> 02:26:34,280
Speaker 1: question for this episode comes from Jim Tobahana, Pennsylvania. I

2545
02:26:34,320 --> 02:26:36,279
Speaker 1: think you're giving me your age, but I'm not gonna.

2546
02:26:36,640 --> 02:26:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do it. I don't want to. I

2547
02:26:38,120 --> 02:26:41,240
Speaker 1: don't watch you bragging about how much younger you are

2548
02:26:41,240 --> 02:26:44,480
Speaker 1: than I am. Jim, all right, just because you got

2549
02:26:44,680 --> 02:26:47,160
Speaker 1: you got eight. If you've been on this planet eight

2550
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:48,959
Speaker 1: less years than I have, you don't have to rub

2551
02:26:49,000 --> 02:26:49,560
Speaker 1: it in my face.

2552
02:26:50,720 --> 02:26:50,840
Speaker 4: Uh.

2553
02:26:51,280 --> 02:26:54,840
Speaker 1: Anyway, your question, does international diplomacy have a greater long

2554
02:26:54,920 --> 02:26:57,000
Speaker 1: term impact on legacy Trump, with his focus on the

2555
02:26:57,000 --> 02:26:59,280
Speaker 1: second term so much abroad, I don't see how this

2556
02:26:59,320 --> 02:27:01,760
Speaker 1: positively impact his legacy. Putting his name on statues the

2557
02:27:01,800 --> 02:27:06,000
Speaker 1: Kennedy Center giving seems like a short term ego boost

2558
02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:09,360
Speaker 1: for him, band aid that the next administration can reverse. Ultimately,

2559
02:27:09,360 --> 02:27:11,800
Speaker 1: long term legacy seems like strengthen in the US with

2560
02:27:11,879 --> 02:27:14,880
Speaker 1: a focus domestically, with an emphasis on improving his approval rating.

2561
02:27:15,120 --> 02:27:17,400
Speaker 1: Focusing on more of a bipartisan agenda would be the

2562
02:27:17,400 --> 02:27:20,480
Speaker 1: biggest way to improve as a long term legacy. Am

2563
02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:23,279
Speaker 1: I right? If prices continue to soar in the behavior

2564
02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:26,000
Speaker 1: of his cabinet, no Marf k Junior Agency's ice, he's

2565
02:27:26,040 --> 02:27:29,440
Speaker 1: diminishing his own legacy. Jim, you're you know you're doing

2566
02:27:29,879 --> 02:27:32,680
Speaker 1: You're you're applying something that I used to have to

2567
02:27:32,720 --> 02:27:35,120
Speaker 1: ban during my meet the press days during our staff

2568
02:27:35,160 --> 02:27:38,880
Speaker 1: in There'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Stop

2569
02:27:38,959 --> 02:27:41,480
Speaker 1: trying to use logic with me. You know, in the

2570
02:27:41,480 --> 02:27:45,039
Speaker 1: Trump era we banned logic. Jim. Everything you're saying is

2571
02:27:45,080 --> 02:27:49,760
Speaker 1: so logical. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, right George W.

2572
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:51,320
Speaker 1: Bush did that. Right, He's like, you know what, I'm

2573
02:27:51,320 --> 02:27:53,320
Speaker 1: gonna focus on pep bar. By the end, I realized

2574
02:27:53,320 --> 02:27:55,160
Speaker 1: that Rack was gonna be a terrible legacy all this stuff,

2575
02:27:55,400 --> 02:27:57,520
Speaker 1: but he's still you know, there were some things he

2576
02:27:57,560 --> 02:28:01,200
Speaker 1: did that that were about his legacy. And guess what

2577
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:04,120
Speaker 1: one of the most positive legacies he has is what

2578
02:28:04,240 --> 02:28:08,760
Speaker 1: he's done in helping fund cures for AIDS in Africa

2579
02:28:09,600 --> 02:28:12,680
Speaker 1: and what the pep far program has done. I know

2580
02:28:12,760 --> 02:28:15,160
Speaker 1: that Elon Musk and that dose people. I have been

2581
02:28:15,160 --> 02:28:19,320
Speaker 1: trying to destroy that last positive legacy of the Bush administration.

2582
02:28:22,879 --> 02:28:25,320
Speaker 1: But you know this goes back to I, don't you know,

2583
02:28:26,160 --> 02:28:27,280
Speaker 1: Trump's the first guy.

2584
02:28:28,240 --> 02:28:28,440
Speaker 2: You know.

2585
02:28:28,440 --> 02:28:34,680
Speaker 1: I used to do these exit interviews with retiring members

2586
02:28:34,680 --> 02:28:37,840
Speaker 1: of Congress when I when I had my multiple when

2587
02:28:37,840 --> 02:28:41,600
Speaker 1: I with with the Daily Rundown and with then I

2588
02:28:41,640 --> 02:28:44,240
Speaker 1: would eventually change it to Meet the Press Daily and

2589
02:28:44,280 --> 02:28:46,320
Speaker 1: Meet the Press now. And I used to do these

2590
02:28:46,760 --> 02:28:50,320
Speaker 1: exit interviews with retiring members both sides of the aisle

2591
02:28:50,320 --> 02:28:51,720
Speaker 1: and get as many of them that would sit down,

2592
02:28:52,120 --> 02:28:54,520
Speaker 1: and they were really legacy questions, and you know, but

2593
02:28:54,600 --> 02:28:56,640
Speaker 1: I also wanted to know, like you know, when was

2594
02:28:56,640 --> 02:28:58,320
Speaker 1: the first time you wanted to run for office? And

2595
02:28:58,360 --> 02:29:00,840
Speaker 1: why do you want to run? Things like that? You know,

2596
02:29:01,000 --> 02:29:03,960
Speaker 1: because I've done these sort of candidate interviews going back

2597
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:07,160
Speaker 1: thirty five years now where people want to run for

2598
02:29:07,200 --> 02:29:09,680
Speaker 1: office the first time, you know, back at the hotline,

2599
02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:12,280
Speaker 1: we used to interview these candidates Cook Report, and we

2600
02:29:12,400 --> 02:29:15,080
Speaker 1: used to you know, piggyback on the Cook Report. This

2601
02:29:15,160 --> 02:29:19,800
Speaker 1: is what they They do this more strenuously than we

2602
02:29:19,840 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 1: did a hotline back in the day. And one of

2603
02:29:24,760 --> 02:29:28,720
Speaker 1: the things that I that I've learned from those interviews

2604
02:29:28,760 --> 02:29:31,320
Speaker 1: over the years is that I used to say, you know,

2605
02:29:31,360 --> 02:29:34,720
Speaker 1: it always made me feel better about the democracy because everybody,

2606
02:29:35,800 --> 02:29:37,320
Speaker 1: whether they were, no matter where they were on the

2607
02:29:37,320 --> 02:29:43,320
Speaker 1: political spectrum hard left, center, left, hard right, center, right, independent,

2608
02:29:43,360 --> 02:29:46,760
Speaker 1: whatever you wanted to put it, they all ran for

2609
02:29:46,840 --> 02:29:51,120
Speaker 1: office on for one thing. There was always something they wanted.

2610
02:29:51,560 --> 02:29:55,800
Speaker 1: There was the initial trigger. You know. I remember talking

2611
02:29:55,800 --> 02:29:58,039
Speaker 1: to one commresceman, I said, so, what got you involved

2612
02:29:58,040 --> 02:30:00,400
Speaker 1: in Congress? His first office was on the school He

2613
02:30:00,480 --> 02:30:03,640
Speaker 1: was mad that they drew drew the lines, drew his

2614
02:30:03,760 --> 02:30:05,959
Speaker 1: kid out of a certain school district. I'm gonna go

2615
02:30:05,959 --> 02:30:07,920
Speaker 1: on the school board and he admitted, he goes. Once

2616
02:30:07,920 --> 02:30:09,160
Speaker 1: I got on the school board, I realized they had

2617
02:30:09,200 --> 02:30:11,160
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the lines. It was somebody else,

2618
02:30:11,280 --> 02:30:15,600
Speaker 1: he goes. But but I got involved and and and suddenly,

2619
02:30:15,640 --> 02:30:18,400
Speaker 1: he said, the more he learned about government and how

2620
02:30:18,440 --> 02:30:24,640
Speaker 1: it worked, the more interested he got. So Donald Trump's

2621
02:30:24,680 --> 02:30:29,199
Speaker 1: one of the few people to successfully gain office whose

2622
02:30:29,480 --> 02:30:36,400
Speaker 1: simple motivation seemed to be sort of the same motivation

2623
02:30:36,520 --> 02:30:40,680
Speaker 1: somebody has to go streaking on a football field. They

2624
02:30:40,720 --> 02:30:42,920
Speaker 1: just wanted to be noticed, right. They just wanted to,

2625
02:30:44,200 --> 02:30:47,360
Speaker 1: you know, be famous. They wanted more people to have

2626
02:30:47,560 --> 02:30:51,680
Speaker 1: to respect them. It's a weird motivation. But he wasn't

2627
02:30:51,680 --> 02:30:55,600
Speaker 1: motivated because he's got an issue he cares the most about.

2628
02:30:55,760 --> 02:30:58,760
Speaker 1: He was maybe he has a daddy. There's plenty of

2629
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:02,000
Speaker 1: We've had a handful of presidents and presidential candidates who

2630
02:31:02,000 --> 02:31:04,840
Speaker 1: I think got involved in politics as there they felt

2631
02:31:04,879 --> 02:31:08,280
Speaker 1: like it was the only way to please their dad,

2632
02:31:08,840 --> 02:31:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, boys said, there's a lot of politics is

2633
02:31:11,360 --> 02:31:15,480
Speaker 1: filled with presidents are filled or it's amazing how many

2634
02:31:15,480 --> 02:31:19,360
Speaker 1: of our presidents have daddy issues one way or the other,

2635
02:31:19,520 --> 02:31:27,520
Speaker 1: including this one, by the way. But I don't think

2636
02:31:27,560 --> 02:31:32,080
Speaker 1: he really cares, you know, when you when you're so

2637
02:31:32,160 --> 02:31:34,800
Speaker 1: worried about putting your name on stuff, it shows you

2638
02:31:34,840 --> 02:31:39,920
Speaker 1: that you really don't care about Like the Institute of

2639
02:31:39,959 --> 02:31:42,640
Speaker 1: Peace was never his idea. He just wanted to slap

2640
02:31:42,640 --> 02:31:44,480
Speaker 1: his name on it because it uses the word peace.

2641
02:31:45,520 --> 02:31:48,400
Speaker 1: The Kennedy Center isn't his idea, but he wants to

2642
02:31:48,400 --> 02:31:50,120
Speaker 1: slap his name on it because he's afraid his name

2643
02:31:50,160 --> 02:31:54,240
Speaker 1: is going to disappear. You know, He's only a real

2644
02:31:54,320 --> 02:31:57,080
Speaker 1: legacy is going to be that ballroom in the White House, right,

2645
02:31:57,160 --> 02:31:59,560
Speaker 1: And I think he thinks, hey, they still call the

2646
02:31:59,600 --> 02:32:02,800
Speaker 1: balcony Truman's balcony, so hopefully they'll always have to call

2647
02:32:02,879 --> 02:32:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, the ballroom will always be the Trump ballroom.

2648
02:32:07,400 --> 02:32:11,160
Speaker 1: Well he might get that, and there'll be some Donald.

2649
02:32:11,640 --> 02:32:15,600
Speaker 1: There'll be some Donald J. Trump elementary schools, and I

2650
02:32:15,959 --> 02:32:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, you know, we know this, it will be.

2651
02:32:22,120 --> 02:32:24,680
Speaker 1: But I don't think he's got an issue. He If

2652
02:32:24,680 --> 02:32:26,880
Speaker 1: he cared about one issue throughout his entire career, it was,

2653
02:32:27,040 --> 02:32:31,200
Speaker 1: you know, his belief in tariffs. But even that, I

2654
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:33,520
Speaker 1: don't think he fully understood why he believed in tariffs

2655
02:32:33,520 --> 02:32:37,320
Speaker 1: other than he was trying to come up with a

2656
02:32:37,400 --> 02:32:40,160
Speaker 1: talking point to insert himself into a political conversation back

2657
02:32:40,160 --> 02:32:46,160
Speaker 1: in the late eighties. So again, to go back to

2658
02:32:46,200 --> 02:32:48,760
Speaker 1: your question, Jim, everything about him makes sense, But you're

2659
02:32:49,120 --> 02:32:54,000
Speaker 1: that that's not how Trump's wired. It's just not how

2660
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:57,160
Speaker 1: he's wired. You know, you're you're one hundred percent right

2661
02:32:57,200 --> 02:33:02,120
Speaker 1: in these things. By the way I've gone, we've gone

2662
02:33:02,160 --> 02:33:05,080
Speaker 1: now a couple hours, and I didn't get to and

2663
02:33:05,080 --> 02:33:06,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to save this for Wednesday, but we're going

2664
02:33:06,920 --> 02:33:08,879
Speaker 1: to do I'm going to give you. I'll give you

2665
02:33:08,920 --> 02:33:15,280
Speaker 1: this hint now, the Christy Nomes Senate campaign. That's a

2666
02:33:15,440 --> 02:33:19,320
Speaker 1: fascinating exit ramp that the Trump White House is trying

2667
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:23,840
Speaker 1: to come up with to get rid of Nome. Fascinating situation. Also,

2668
02:33:23,879 --> 02:33:26,959
Speaker 1: want to get into the Maha moms and how yet

2669
02:33:27,040 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 1: another monsanto, the first major donation they'd ever given to Trump.

2670
02:33:31,400 --> 02:33:33,959
Speaker 1: Let's just say they reminded Trump of that. That's why

2671
02:33:33,959 --> 02:33:36,640
Speaker 1: they got the executive order that they got. But those

2672
02:33:36,720 --> 02:33:39,120
Speaker 1: Maha Moms, We're going to get into that too on Wednesday.

2673
02:33:39,160 --> 02:33:41,840
Speaker 1: So look, it was a hugely busy weekend. That last

2674
02:33:41,879 --> 02:33:44,160
Speaker 1: question reminded me of a couple other issues. I didn't

2675
02:33:44,160 --> 02:33:47,640
Speaker 1: get to get to. Maha moms, and Nome for South

2676
02:33:47,720 --> 02:33:52,199
Speaker 1: Dakota Centate where two of them. But I'm not gonna

2677
02:33:52,959 --> 02:33:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm just going to leave that as a tease for

2678
02:33:56,360 --> 02:33:59,600
Speaker 1: the next episode in forty eight hours. Thanks for listening.

2679
02:33:59,640 --> 02:34:02,959
Speaker 1: By the way, we're having some of our you guys

2680
02:34:02,959 --> 02:34:05,400
Speaker 1: have been great. I know there's some new subscribers out there,

2681
02:34:05,760 --> 02:34:08,720
Speaker 1: some new devots. I appreciate having you. How do I

2682
02:34:08,720 --> 02:34:11,800
Speaker 1: know new Because we keep growing and things are going well.

2683
02:34:12,400 --> 02:34:15,040
Speaker 1: I can tell because I now got more people telling

2684
02:34:15,080 --> 02:34:18,360
Speaker 1: me hey, I've got fewer people coming up to me

2685
02:34:18,440 --> 02:34:21,480
Speaker 1: saying hey, I miss you. What are you doing now?

2686
02:34:21,879 --> 02:34:23,959
Speaker 1: Now it's like, hey, I miss you over there, but

2687
02:34:24,000 --> 02:34:27,879
Speaker 1: I really like what you're doing now. So that's all

2688
02:34:27,920 --> 02:34:31,400
Speaker 1: because you guys are liking, You're subscribing, word of mouth,

2689
02:34:31,560 --> 02:34:35,080
Speaker 1: all of those things. And so let's just say I

2690
02:34:35,080 --> 02:34:40,359
Speaker 1: appreciate it because it's you know, this is an entrepreneurial business,

2691
02:34:40,360 --> 02:34:43,680
Speaker 1: and it is credibility has earned one listener and one

2692
02:34:43,760 --> 02:34:47,880
Speaker 1: viewer at a time, and this growth tells me that

2693
02:34:47,959 --> 02:34:51,640
Speaker 1: you guys are help are expressed or saying that I'm

2694
02:34:51,640 --> 02:34:53,720
Speaker 1: earning it with you. So thank you, and with that,

2695
02:34:53,760 --> 02:34:59,200
Speaker 1: I'll see you A forty eight dollars