Speaker 1: It's very interesting Bed they talk about great pudders and
Speaker 1: brand as you know did that story. Yeah, almost impossible
Speaker 1: to put the ten best pudders down because you forget
Speaker 1: people forget about Jerry Barber. I'll never forget winning the
Speaker 1: PGA against Don January in Chicago at something Feels. What
Speaker 1: does the name of that golf course something Olympia Fields,
Speaker 1: Olympia Field, he must he hold, There's never ever been
Speaker 1: an exhibition of pudding like that other than you at
Speaker 1: the Master's when I had my friend Dave King caddy
Speaker 1: for me, I said, I'm so pleased you're cadding for
Speaker 1: me because today you'll see for yourself what this man
Speaker 1: crench or does. And I'll never forget on the fourth
Speaker 1: hole on the fifth hold, I mean they're the flag
Speaker 1: the front right on that big no. And you were
Speaker 1: sure of the grid. And he said, well, now he
Speaker 1: will never get out of two older. He was convinced. No, Gary,
Speaker 1: I I remember reading about what what Jerry Barber did
Speaker 1: to Don January. It was some like the last three
Speaker 1: putts were all over thirty ft, but you know he
Speaker 1: putted his method was I've never seen a method like that.
Speaker 1: He putted really close to his feet, very upright, and
Speaker 1: he had an old Natzi putter, kind of a blade
Speaker 1: looking thing, but god, that guy putt he It was
Speaker 1: very interesting. I saw him later on in his career.
Speaker 1: He played a couple of tournaments and he was out
Speaker 1: on the putting green and he was putting right across
Speaker 1: the green sixties seventy ft and we said, what are
Speaker 1: you doing? He said, well, I feel like if I
Speaker 1: can gauge the speed of these long putts and then
Speaker 1: go knock the short puts. And I said, I've got
Speaker 1: a field for these greens this particular week. It was
Speaker 1: very interesting. You know, it is Ben and he had
Speaker 1: a he welded something on the thing that was the
Speaker 1: work most wicked looking putty you've ever seen. And yet
Speaker 1: find people say, well, you know, they forget that you've
Speaker 1: got to have a good eye and that you've got
Speaker 1: to have a good touch. And I mean you look
Speaker 1: at Bobby Locke. He aimed everything three ft right as
Speaker 1: a whole, even the left or right breaking hole, took
Speaker 1: the put away inside and then didn't follow through an inch.
Speaker 1: But he Casper never followed through our apartment, never followed through.
Speaker 1: Doug Ford ever followed through they gave it a good rap,
Speaker 1: a good acceleration, hitting down on the ball, and then
Speaker 1: you get guys cross handed the claw. But these were
Speaker 1: all things that were done a hundred years ago. This
Speaker 1: wasn't discovered as of today. And that's why I must
Speaker 1: just tell the folks how much I enjoy you being
Speaker 1: the host at Augusta because you always give us such
Speaker 1: lovely stories. And that's what always transpired at the Master's Dinner,
Speaker 1: which is one of the greatest evenings that you will
Speaker 1: ever experience. Into all those champions there, particularly when Bobby
Speaker 1: Jones was there, and Clifford Roberts, and you know that
Speaker 1: we also met President Eisenhower there. But you bring back
Speaker 1: these great stories. And you know, Jack Nichol has always
Speaker 1: told me what a great golfer Bobby Jones was, and
Speaker 1: I was very naive. I didn't quite appreciate that. And
Speaker 1: now as I get older, I realized he was a
Speaker 1: phenomenal golfer. And I love the story. You always tell it.
Speaker 1: Tell me when you see me, you imitate him, and
Speaker 1: I'll never forget you. Said Bobby Jones said, it is
Speaker 1: absolutely impossible, in fact inadequate to hit a bad shot
Speaker 1: and still have the club in your hands. I tell
Speaker 1: you that he was such an intellect, and he wrote
Speaker 1: so well. As a matter of fact, Gary, when I
Speaker 1: was preparing for this discussion, I have I have a
Speaker 1: quote from him that I think apply to our putting
Speaker 1: little treatise here, and I kept it for you, and
Speaker 1: it says, anyone who hopes to reduce putting, or any
Speaker 1: other department of the game of golf for that matter,
Speaker 1: to an exact science, is in for serious disappointment, and
Speaker 1: will only suffer from the attempt. It is wholly a
Speaker 1: matter of touch, the ability to gauge a slope accurately,
Speaker 1: and most important of all, the ability to concentrate on
Speaker 1: the problem at hand, and that of getting the ball
Speaker 1: into the hole, and nothing more. I mean he could write,
Speaker 1: he could write for all of us, really, and not
Speaker 1: describe what you and I were thinking in the most
Speaker 1: important aspects of our career. I mean those putts that
Speaker 1: you you made, uh, you know it lit them. Uh.
Speaker 1: That was my first Open championship and you won that week.
Speaker 1: That was the big ball, the American ball, and you
Speaker 1: you won that tournament. And you know, I know that
Speaker 1: you hold your old putts at critical times, but you
Speaker 1: know another when you won that that masters that when
Speaker 1: you made the incoming rush on the back night and
Speaker 1: you hold some putts that were just incredible. And uh
Speaker 1: you did mention too that Uh our big fellow who
Speaker 1: won the US Open, who's John Rob Those two putts
Speaker 1: were some of the prettiest putts I ever saw, both
Speaker 1: big left to right breaking putts. They had to have
Speaker 1: the perfect speed on them. They were two beautiful putts.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, putting it has always been an
Speaker 1: art to me. And I never saw Bobby lock putt,
Speaker 1: but I saw him in film. But uh, you know
Speaker 1: that man had such a touch and an ability to
Speaker 1: read slopes, and no one would ever teach that method. Uh.
Speaker 1: You and I have seen so many different methods work,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what's fascinating about putting. Uh there's
Speaker 1: no right or wrong way to go about it. And
Speaker 1: you know you you mentioned Brad Faxson and Brad Faxson
Speaker 1: is one of the prettiest putters I ever saw. He
Speaker 1: just gets up and hits it. No practice stroke, He
Speaker 1: he sizes it up and makes that beautiful stroke. Great touch.
Speaker 1: He's just got beautiful touch in his in his hands
Speaker 1: and fingers. But um, uh, it's a part of the game.
Speaker 1: It's mystifying to some, but we do know Gary that
Speaker 1: you in order to win a tournament, and win big tournaments,
Speaker 1: the putts have to go down. That's the only way
Speaker 1: that you're gonna reduces your scores. H But in tight
Speaker 1: situations it's a tough thing to do. But you have
Speaker 1: to have belief in yourself. Right, that's right. And then
Speaker 1: the thing is, there's so much I think hogwash spoken
Speaker 1: about long hitting. Now that's all you hear is about
Speaker 1: long hitting. And even though the guy like Deschambro, I
Speaker 1: think he has a very nice but he gets a
Speaker 1: bit slashy oft times, as Tiger did. And it's unnecessary
Speaker 1: because if you hit it hard and you slash it,
Speaker 1: there's only a difference about ten yards, which is not
Speaker 1: really any significance. But if you look at the way
Speaker 1: they putted every time, you wouldn't have torment. I say,
Speaker 1: what wins a golf Torment is keeping the ball in play,
Speaker 1: having a very good mind. I can't explain of mind
Speaker 1: as you know that to be able to put extremely well,
Speaker 1: because it makes you feel like Tarzan instead of Mickey
Speaker 1: Mouse three putting it. And what I've just really irritates me,
Speaker 1: and I suppose it shouldn't. I don't think it should
Speaker 1: be allowed odd that you should be allowed to have
Speaker 1: a book on helping you read a dream. The greatest
Speaker 1: putters that ever lived, none of them ever had a book.
Speaker 1: And there's nobody putting today that could put better than
Speaker 1: those guys. In fact, I don't believe the best pudders
Speaker 1: today can put as well as the better put as
Speaker 1: of yesterday, because they play on greens and are twice
Speaker 1: as good as what we played on. And you never
Speaker 1: saw anybody bringing a book out. Where is the game
Speaker 1: to that you've got to have a book to tell
Speaker 1: you the slope. If you can't read a pot, surely
Speaker 1: reading a put is part of the game. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: totally agree. I you know, I don't play any tournaments anymore,
Speaker 1: but I have heard Gary that lately the chorus is
Speaker 1: getting louder about getting rid of the books. And one
Speaker 1: of the one of the players that I really respect
Speaker 1: a lot, and Rory McIlroy, I think that he is uh.
Speaker 1: I think he's a he's a member of the policy board,
Speaker 1: I guess on both sides of the Atlantic, but I
Speaker 1: think he I think that he If I'm not incorrect,
Speaker 1: I think that he's in favor of getting ready to
Speaker 1: grind of the books. Um it is. It's no, no question,
Speaker 1: simply a part of the game to read, to read
Speaker 1: a green, that's part of golf. I just think of
Speaker 1: all the time that it would save as well as
Speaker 1: as uh as. Golfers now, especially professionals, are scrutinized about
Speaker 1: the time that it takes them to play. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, I I I I'm old enough to know
Speaker 1: that I can't believe a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: I see these days. The distances are just mind boggling.
Speaker 1: I never thought that people would be hitting the ball
Speaker 1: as far as they do. Uh uh. You know, it's
Speaker 1: interesting about Bryson de Shambo. Ah. Yes, people are enamored
Speaker 1: with his long hitting, but people forget how well he
Speaker 1: putted those greens at wingfoot exactly. You and I know
Speaker 1: that those greens are difficult to part. There's some undulations
Speaker 1: there that you really have to work out. He put
Speaker 1: it unbelievable that way, lucky, but that's a you have to.
Speaker 1: The putts have to go down, there's no question about that.
Speaker 1: That's right. And reading the greens is such an important
Speaker 1: part because if you don't, if you don't pick the
Speaker 1: right line, you're not gonna hold him. And you've only
Speaker 1: got to look today. I think the best putter on
Speaker 1: the tour today is Jordan's speed. I mean his His
Speaker 1: long game is a lot to be improved on. He
Speaker 1: misses a lot of fairways and greens that I really
Speaker 1: admire him because he gets in there and he can
Speaker 1: He can play poorly and still score, and that to
Speaker 1: me is a big thing. He's really got that little
Speaker 1: thing called it. He's a great competitor. He's a wonderful
Speaker 1: young man. He's a good family man, a good all
Speaker 1: American guy. Pull for him. If he could get his
Speaker 1: swing right, my goodness, may be careful. He will be
Speaker 1: number one on the tour. There's no question about it.
Speaker 1: But you know the thing is that it's very interesting.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Brandon Grace in South Africa last September
Speaker 1: when I was in South Africa, and he said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, when you and Arnold and Jack and the
Speaker 1: guys won the tourments, there are only about thirty players
Speaker 1: that you had to beat, whereas we got to beat
Speaker 1: eighty ninety players. Now I said, yes, you do have
Speaker 1: to beat eighty or ninety players now. Then I came
Speaker 1: back during COVID. I was in Philadelphia and I went
Speaker 1: through on our tour, and we had fifty nine major
Speaker 1: champions that played the tour when we played, fifty nine
Speaker 1: nine major champions champions playing the tour right now. So
Speaker 1: you've always got to be very careful what you say
Speaker 1: about I don't see anybody hitting the boat. I've been
Speaker 1: Hogan today. This is a long time ago. I mean
Speaker 1: Sam Sneed and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson and Jimmy
Speaker 1: de Merritt, Lloyd Mangram. You can go down the line.
Speaker 1: Those guys could really play. And when you think about it,
Speaker 1: we're in our infancy right now. Ben, I mean, you're
Speaker 1: getting guys coming out We've never there's never been even today,
Speaker 1: no really big men playing golf. You know, the physique,
Speaker 1: you know, I suppose Gary that the the RNA and
Speaker 1: the U. S. G A are are obviously being scrutinized
Speaker 1: about the distance of the ball is going with club
Speaker 1: heads and implements and the ball and this and that.
Speaker 1: But you really can't take away people's physical abilities. That's
Speaker 1: that's that's something that that you know, no one ever
Speaker 1: thought of. I know that you were a proponent of
Speaker 1: really keeping a strong body, and you always have and
Speaker 1: there was there was there was one guy, Frank Stranahan.
Speaker 1: I guess way back who who's one of the first
Speaker 1: I guess, But no, you can't discount that. The sad
Speaker 1: part is Gary that you know, you and I build
Speaker 1: golf courses and you I sort of cringe when you know,
Speaker 1: you to offer up a championship test, you know, when
Speaker 1: people are saying, well this, of course, there's got to
Speaker 1: be seventy seventy six hundred yards. And it's very difficult
Speaker 1: to make a golf course be a lasting enough that
Speaker 1: that everybody could enjoy the game. It's very difficult to
Speaker 1: put those things together. But we're sort of at that
Speaker 1: threshold now. I I'm always of the opinion that of
Speaker 1: for a golf course that yes has the framework of
Speaker 1: of trying to reach everyone, and it is difficult to do.
Speaker 1: But in a nutshell, if you have a golf course
Speaker 1: that has a couple of part fives, a couple of
Speaker 1: strong par fours on either side, a couple of short
Speaker 1: par fours on either side that are great and testing
Speaker 1: and you have four part three's that are of different lengths.
Speaker 1: You've reached a lot of people and to where those
Speaker 1: golf courses nestle against the countryside and look natural. That's
Speaker 1: that's what we that's our aim and objective. And you
Speaker 1: and I have studied the world's best courses and it's
Speaker 1: fascinating to me that they're sort of a kinship and
Speaker 1: all of them, that they're naturally placed. They offer a test. Uh. Yes,
Speaker 1: they're difficult in spots, but they're not completely overbear. I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone enjoys a slug fest every hole. Uh. Interest,
Speaker 1: well Jones said it interest supersed link every time. It's
Speaker 1: a kind of a an alarming quote. But you know,
Speaker 1: when you think about it, you want to hold people's
Speaker 1: interests as much as you can. And uh, some of
Speaker 1: the world's greatest holes, Ah well, let's started by the
Speaker 1: number twelve that Augusta. I think that holds people attentions
Speaker 1: pretty well, confounds everyone. Uh, but are you thinking of
Speaker 1: some of the great short part forwards in the world
Speaker 1: that are just fascinating to watch? The tenth hole at
Speaker 1: Riviera in Los Angeles, and uh, uh, they're they're they're,
Speaker 1: they're just wonderfully done. They're fascinating they But Ben, the
Speaker 1: thing is that we've got to be very careful of
Speaker 1: one of the things that my brother was the world's
Speaker 1: leading conservationist, and fifty years ago he said to me,
Speaker 1: water is going to be the big problem in your
Speaker 1: children's lifetimes. And were finding that out right now when
Speaker 1: you see the drafts that are taking place all over
Speaker 1: the world and the big lakes that we automatically got
Speaker 1: water from Lake Mead I e down to. We cannot
Speaker 1: afford to have golf courses that are, you know, eight
Speaker 1: thousand yards long, because we don't have the water unless
Speaker 1: we use In fact, I think in time to come, Ben,
Speaker 1: we will not be able to use portable water for
Speaker 1: golf courses. Will have to use the the you know,
Speaker 1: the sewerage water that's been refined. We will not be
Speaker 1: allowed to use that fresh water because and the other
Speaker 1: thing is the fertilizer. Fertilization continuously. I know on my
Speaker 1: crops on my farm, if I kept using fertilizer, the
Speaker 1: soil det aiorated. So and then the other thing is
Speaker 1: the expense. How much it costs to buy the machinery.
Speaker 1: It costs a living fortune. So I think to me,
Speaker 1: my advice to everybody who talks to us about a
Speaker 1: golf course, I say, look, the odds of having a
Speaker 1: tournament on your golf course are remote. Let's build a
Speaker 1: golf course for the future where your your people are
Speaker 1: going to enjoy it as members. You'll have good youth programmed,
Speaker 1: you'll have a great camaraderie that exists, a good practice
Speaker 1: tea facilities. But forget about a tournament golf course because
Speaker 1: it just upsets the members anyway, They're not going to
Speaker 1: enjoy it. And the expense, Wow, the expense is enormous. Ben,
Speaker 1: you know what it costs just to put sand in
Speaker 1: bunkers been, Oh, it is. And I'd like to to
Speaker 1: echo your thoughts about conservation too, because if you really
Speaker 1: consider what kind of research is done now with the
Speaker 1: turf grass universities and the U. S g A with
Speaker 1: their Green Section, you have to really scrutinize what varieties
Speaker 1: and species you're gonna put on on that golf course.
Speaker 1: And some of the grasses now are just fantastic. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some of the zoises that we've worked with are just
Speaker 1: wonderfully adapted to heat. And you don't have to water
Speaker 1: them that much. You don't have to fertilize them that much. Uh.
Speaker 1: We're the golf industry is constantly looking for species of
Speaker 1: grass that that will thrive in these conditions. But you're
Speaker 1: right at the cost of upkeep for a golf course
Speaker 1: is enormous. That costs everyone, costs everyone, the members of
Speaker 1: your club. Uh. You dues are are expensive. But you
Speaker 1: have to consider these things. Uh. One thing is is unbelievable, though, Gary,
Speaker 1: when you start thinking about golf as a worldwide recreation
Speaker 1: is people are playing golf. It's amazing how popular it is.
Speaker 1: You know, of course we've had this rotten pandemic, but
Speaker 1: it is rekindled a lot of people's romance with the game.
Speaker 1: Every club around North America is full and a lot
Speaker 1: of people are coming to the game for the first time. Ah.
Speaker 1: I know that where you are in the UK, people
Speaker 1: would like to get out more and recreate. Ah. But
Speaker 1: if you consider golfs ability to thrive, and you know,
Speaker 1: our game, Gary has been around over five dred years.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that the thought of it hasn't changed that much.
Speaker 1: The aim and the objective of the game. Uh. And
Speaker 1: it's amazing when you talk to people who take up
Speaker 1: the game what it means to them, and they the one, well,
Speaker 1: that's the game for a lifetime. Well it is, and
Speaker 1: it's something to learn every day. Uh. But you know, Gary,
Speaker 1: going back to the Masters and the Champions dinner, it's
Speaker 1: such an honor to stand up there and and talk
Speaker 1: to you guys. I never dreamed that Byrone Nelson would
Speaker 1: call me on the phone. He said, Been, I want
Speaker 1: you to take over for the dinner. I went, wow. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's an honor. Uh. And it's when you wouldn't look
Speaker 1: out at all of your champions. We have a kinship
Speaker 1: because we've been through it and we're proud that we've
Speaker 1: got through it to do something like that, um common
Speaker 1: thread of all of us. But the chance for us
Speaker 1: to be together and relive old stories. Uh. And just
Speaker 1: a number of people, number of professionals who'd like to
Speaker 1: be in that room. We're very very lucky. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, no.
Speaker 1: Being it's a it's a game. When you think about it,
Speaker 1: you can play forever. That can help a young man.
Speaker 1: He should choose his sport very wisely because it comes
Speaker 1: a day when he cannot play anymore, and golf and
Speaker 1: can help him in his business enormously, and if you're
Speaker 1: not a champion golf or whatsoever, it's the most difficult
Speaker 1: game ever invented. I mean, my wife and I have
Speaker 1: great debates. My favorite sport to watch on television is tennis. Now,
Speaker 1: I tell her, I said, you know, when you win Wimbledon,
Speaker 1: you've got to beat property six or seven guys. I said,
Speaker 1: when we win the British Open or the US Open,
Speaker 1: or whatever it may be, we've got a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty six guys teeing off in the tournament. And every
Speaker 1: day we're playing against a lot of guys, and you
Speaker 1: might get an early morning time and the wooden blows.
Speaker 1: I said, when you played tennis, it's the same conditions
Speaker 1: for you as against that other man. We play against
Speaker 1: rain and wind and sunshine in the afternoon and completely
Speaker 1: different conditions. The greens are not as good in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: the bunkers are not as good. Nothing is as good,
Speaker 1: So you know to win. To me, we have the debate.
Speaker 1: And nobody had admis an athlete more than Djokovic than
Speaker 1: I do. To see the way he's exercise and the
Speaker 1: way he eats and his mindset. I'm such a fan
Speaker 1: of his. And we saw what bul Micholson did that
Speaker 1: the PJ this year. He lost X amount of pounds.
Speaker 1: He looked young, he was focused. There was a great
Speaker 1: encouragement for young people to to avoid obesity, which is
Speaker 1: the biggest killer of mankind. So it was very The
Speaker 1: golf can set such a great example to so many
Speaker 1: people watching and learning about it, and the more they learned,
Speaker 1: the more intrigued they are with the game. I think
Speaker 1: it is Djokovic was an athlete. You know his range e,
Speaker 1: he's his capacity, he stays healthy. In the next few years,
Speaker 1: he's gonna set so many, so many records. It's incredible
Speaker 1: what he's achieved now he's he's a lethal uh competitor. Uh.
Speaker 1: And and really, and if you consider what Phil Nicholson
Speaker 1: did that that is one of the great achievements of
Speaker 1: of of of our sport. He you know, he looked
Speaker 1: like he was in a trance the last two days. Focus,
Speaker 1: his focus was on believing his brother on the bag
Speaker 1: really helped him. But god, he was calm. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know one thing too, I noted Gary that he
Speaker 1: inserted a club in his bag. I think that really
Speaker 1: helped him win. Was that was that too, would Brassy? Yes,
Speaker 1: we kept the ball in play off the tea. Yes,
Speaker 1: because a guy like that can score so well, he
Speaker 1: just needs to keep it in play. What a victory
Speaker 1: that was. Oh, it was really remarkable. And Ben, you know,
Speaker 1: I remember fifty years ago saying one day because Raymond
Speaker 1: Floyd came very close to winning at fifty, and I said,
Speaker 1: one day there will be a man of fifty winning
Speaker 1: a major. Now, and I've been known as a bit
Speaker 1: of a cook with my predictions, I said, weight training
Speaker 1: will become part of the game. Uh, they will, said
Speaker 1: you mad, Even Ardole and Jason don't talk nonsense about
Speaker 1: using weights. And then I said, somebody will win a
Speaker 1: major at fifty. Now I'm going to say another cook thing,
Speaker 1: somebody will win a major at sixty one day. Because
Speaker 1: we're now going into a new mindset eating properly. No athletes,
Speaker 1: student professional golfers are not good eaters. But any I mean,
Speaker 1: you put any food in front of the man, they
Speaker 1: eat it. So I mean, but now there's a new
Speaker 1: trend of watching their diet game to the game, to
Speaker 1: the gym, getting psychiatrists. I mean, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: completely different game. I played with Taysom Hill, the guy
Speaker 1: who plays a football for the Saints. Let me tell
Speaker 1: you something. He's squatting with five hundred pounds. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: he hit when I hit a drive and a three
Speaker 1: iron and he had a drive in a sandwidge and
Speaker 1: that's not mad, but I still waxed him anyway. But
Speaker 1: the thing is that these guys, they're going to be
Speaker 1: hitting the ball close to five hundred yards. I'm telling
Speaker 1: you right now, we as they say in the classics,
Speaker 1: we ain't seen nothing yet. And so the U s
Speaker 1: g A and the RNA and all the leaders the
Speaker 1: p g A have got to slow the ball down. Ben.
Speaker 1: If they don't slow the ball down, it's going to
Speaker 1: be a fass. They'll stand on the first here in
Speaker 1: Augusta and this will happen again, and they'll drive the green.
Speaker 1: I mean, even right now, Bryson on a reasonably hot
Speaker 1: firmed he can get within ten yards of it. So
Speaker 1: is going to be a short hitter in time to come.
Speaker 1: Never dreamed that we'd see the things that we're seeing.
Speaker 1: Just amazing. And like you say, more than half of
Speaker 1: the players on tour now can carry the ball three
Speaker 1: hundred yards it's it's amazing and hit they hit a
Speaker 1: seven nine yards. It's just amazing to me. You know
Speaker 1: the way I played Gary, I'll hit one out there
Speaker 1: and I'll go, yeah, wait, I thought I hit that
Speaker 1: ball better than that. But let me give you some
Speaker 1: food for thought. Jack Nicholas and Dallas in the long
Speaker 1: driving competition were that old ball in those old clubs
Speaker 1: he hit. He won it with three hundred and forty
Speaker 1: one yards. People forget that, and he still got the
Speaker 1: money clip to prove it because he doesn't keep any
Speaker 1: money in at you if you pay well. But the
Speaker 1: fact he still did that, now, can you imagine having
Speaker 1: given Jack uh the drivers, the lightweight shafts, and the
Speaker 1: middle head and the ball. I mean, guys, tell you
Speaker 1: about a ball today. This ball doesn't suit me. You
Speaker 1: know that's a foreign language. Just give me that little
Speaker 1: white bull man. Let me go play, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So I remember I remember by Byron Nelson
Speaker 1: telling me he said, somebody asked him what were the
Speaker 1: golf balls like in your day? And he said, well,
Speaker 1: he said, I ever got a if I ever got
Speaker 1: a good one, I'd play a few holes with him.
Speaker 1: I said, God, they were. But Uh, golf is so
Speaker 1: scientific now, I'm amazed how scrutinized. And you're right. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you think about the equipment that they play with,
Speaker 1: the golf ball and the components of the heads, and
Speaker 1: you just think of agronomy, like you mentioned earlier, the
Speaker 1: greens are beautiful. The greens are so good. No, no
Speaker 1: wonder that scores go down, because you know, if you
Speaker 1: see a beautiful green out there, you say, well, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't make these butts, and I do make them. But
Speaker 1: if you start thinking about what the agronomy was thirty
Speaker 1: forty years ago, and that that was attributable to a
Speaker 1: lot of different things. Uh, scoring had had a lot
Speaker 1: to do with how the courses were. But man, it's
Speaker 1: the golf courses are beautifully presented now, let's say. And uh,
Speaker 1: no no question about the records and uh but you
Speaker 1: know it's still it's you know, and the old it
Speaker 1: still takes two to get there. You hit the ball,
Speaker 1: you in it twice and those other two shots constitute
Speaker 1: either a two pot or get the ball up and down.
Speaker 1: That it never never changes. Every my contention is every
Speaker 1: tournament that you watch, I don't care what it is
Speaker 1: around the Globe, the top ten finishers will have chipped
Speaker 1: and putted well. Absolutely. You know, it never fails. You know,
Speaker 1: when you're not hitting the ball at well, you hit
Speaker 1: it off the green. You gotta get that ball up
Speaker 1: and down, and it's a way, it's it's it never changes.
Speaker 1: I think the top ten scores will have chipped and
Speaker 1: putted well. In other words, they get the ball in
Speaker 1: the whole fast. Yeah, I mean, oh, I know that.
Speaker 1: And what's in the US Open? Ram had a four
Speaker 1: iron to the lost total of five. He didn't put
Speaker 1: the fall on the green. He still made biddy. He
Speaker 1: hold that magnificent put and it's seventeen. He hold one,
Speaker 1: and then you see ust Hazen right behind him. He
Speaker 1: bog is the easiest hole on the course, one of
Speaker 1: the easiest on seven team and losers. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: people must understand it's the putting in the end that
Speaker 1: makes all the difference. My goodness me that putting that
Speaker 1: in that well, I'll tell you what in in in
Speaker 1: mentioning Louis and Charles Schwartz or Schwartzel, I maintained that
Speaker 1: they've got to the prettiest swings that I've ever seen
Speaker 1: they're just beautiful. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's no question.
Speaker 1: There's not a better swing on the tour than Louis.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think people like Rory McElroy and Adam
Speaker 1: Scott great swings, but Louis is just unbelievable the way
Speaker 1: he swings that club. He he, I don't know why
Speaker 1: he's not winning. He's not winning and he's so close.
Speaker 1: Now he's got to sit down and say, well, there's
Speaker 1: a reason, and uh, you know, that's something he's got
Speaker 1: to take into consideration. He's a wonderful young man. In fact,
Speaker 1: South Africans have done extremely well for a small country.
Speaker 1: To win twenty three majors, more in any country in
Speaker 1: the world other than the US post war is quite remarkable.
Speaker 1: And we've got a lot of wonderful young guys coming
Speaker 1: along right now. That's right. And I've always admired Ratief
Speaker 1: Goosen too. He continues to play beautiful golf. He's beautiful
Speaker 1: to watch. Uh. I just I maintained too that you know,
Speaker 1: if you you know the game, and you've grown up
Speaker 1: in Australia and South Africa, you know how to play
Speaker 1: the game. You've played in all sorts and conditions. Something
Speaker 1: just popped into my head. When you know this list
Speaker 1: of courses which you and I will probably agree on
Speaker 1: a lot, at the top ten courses that you've ever seen.
Speaker 1: I always have this wonderful there was a photo of
Speaker 1: you Gary winning the Australian Open at Kingston Heath and
Speaker 1: you had a handkerchief. You had a handkerchief on your
Speaker 1: face and we had allergies or something, but you won
Speaker 1: on that golf course. I contend that Kingston Heath one
Speaker 1: of the world's greatest courses. That you could have everybody
Speaker 1: out there playing. It doesn't matter how far you hit it,
Speaker 1: you still have to were going to be tested. That's
Speaker 1: a great golf course. It's I think that the Australians.
Speaker 1: Those courses have some of the prettiest bunkers in the world,
Speaker 1: beautifully natural, rugged looking buckers. God, they're beautiful. Royal Melbourne
Speaker 1: has always been one of my favorites too. I love
Speaker 1: those golf courses because you have to play all kinds
Speaker 1: of shots and the sand Belt in Melbourne in Victoria
Speaker 1: is definitely the best group of golf courses together. They've
Speaker 1: got something like seventeen and one of the great victories
Speaker 1: of my life. We were playing in the Canada Cup,
Speaker 1: the World Cup and now in France and Arnold, Jack
Speaker 1: and I were going to go to play Royal Melbourne
Speaker 1: Australian Open. And we have a fogged out in France
Speaker 1: and travel agent said, look, I can get you there
Speaker 1: three hours before you play Arnold and Jack Withdrew. I
Speaker 1: went arrived there three and a half hours before. I
Speaker 1: don't know what. We went from France to New York
Speaker 1: to l A to to Away, to Fiji, to Sydney
Speaker 1: to Melbourne and I've never I've never seen I've never
Speaker 1: seen Royal Melbourne in my life and given my a
Speaker 1: new set of clubs and I won't Australian Opened by
Speaker 1: seven shots always in Royal Melbourne's my favorite. It is
Speaker 1: a majestic place that is unbelievable. They were slashinger two,
Speaker 1: weren't they right? And what I like? They come on
Speaker 1: to you when you first get over. Then they said, well, Gary,
Speaker 1: here your three balls for the week and then you'd
Speaker 1: have a ring. You'd have a ring to see if
Speaker 1: all the ball would go through the ring, and one
Speaker 1: ball we would go through the ring. The ring to
Speaker 1: realize you were playing with ball and it wasn't round.
Speaker 1: Oh I have things have changed. I guess we can
Speaker 1: get now. I guess Gary will get up in one
Speaker 1: of Richard Branson's rockets and you go over there. You
Speaker 1: you go from you go from the UK where you
Speaker 1: are Australian an hour or something. I guess I don't yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but if they build a course, if they built a
Speaker 1: course up there, very high up, you and I'll do
Speaker 1: together and make sure we could reach all the fas.
Speaker 1: But I just I would be remodered me not to
Speaker 1: ask you about because I thought one of the most touching,
Speaker 1: if not the most touching victory Augusta was with you
Speaker 1: one uh and your great mentor Harvey Pinnic, who I
Speaker 1: never I don't know if I have admit him, but
Speaker 1: I just always admired that man with his little book
Speaker 1: that he had, and the way he taught you and
Speaker 1: Tom Kite and taught you both to be great gentlemen
Speaker 1: and competitors. And then you actually did something, if I'm
Speaker 1: not incorrect, which it's good to remind people. Didn't you
Speaker 1: fly back during Augusta? Yes, yes, Tom Kite and I
Speaker 1: flew back on Tuesday. We buried buried Harvey on Tuesday,
Speaker 1: and I came back to the Masters on Wednesday and
Speaker 1: one on the on the tournament. Believable. It may have
Speaker 1: been the most selfless kind men I've ever met in
Speaker 1: my life. He loved the game. It was a great teacher,
Speaker 1: very humble god, you know. He taught Cathy Whitworth and
Speaker 1: uh Nicky Right and uh Betsy Rawls and the women
Speaker 1: professionals loved him. He was very, very kind, but he
Speaker 1: was a great thing. Everybody knew him in the Southwest.
Speaker 1: But he just preached, well, he didn't preach, but he
Speaker 1: when we were little bitty kids, he said, look here,
Speaker 1: here's what I need for you to do. I want
Speaker 1: you to take this seven iron, go off the edge
Speaker 1: of the green. I don't you chip that ball up
Speaker 1: there and go knock it in the hole. One ball,
Speaker 1: and then you're playing golf. He wants wanted to learn
Speaker 1: the value of the little short shots of the pudding.
Speaker 1: And it stayed with me the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: I loved chipping and practicing the short game. And we
Speaker 1: had putting matches. We'd all play and end up on
Speaker 1: the punning green with punning matches, and it was just
Speaker 1: they were fun. I enjoyed punny and competing. He wanted
Speaker 1: us to compete as well. Uh. But he's very much
Speaker 1: a fundamentalist that he really preached a good grip. He
Speaker 1: always wanted to see people have the proper grip. Uh.
Speaker 1: But the kindest man, selfless, selfless, and to have to
Speaker 1: have one on that occasion for his memories. As always,
Speaker 1: it will always be my finest achievement. But I told
Speaker 1: many people so many times, I said, look, I had
Speaker 1: a fifteen club in my bag and it was Harvey.
Speaker 1: But also also no doubt in my mind that the
Speaker 1: man upstairs put his hand on me and said, look,
Speaker 1: we're gonna honor this gentleman, and I'm gonna see you through.
Speaker 1: There's no there's no doubt in my mind, Gary, no doubt,
Speaker 1: no doubt, no doubt. That's to me. Of all the
Speaker 1: torments I've seen, it was the most touching because there's
Speaker 1: no question that the Lord played his part in there.
Speaker 1: And the same there was karma with John rom Winning.
Speaker 1: I was very happy to see him when I'd like
Speaker 1: to have seen him. It wasn't great, but I mean, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas said to me, Gary, You've got no idea
Speaker 1: what a great round. He's sixty four. Was he says,
Speaker 1: you have no idea, and then to be told that
Speaker 1: you are, You're on your way, but he and then
Speaker 1: to come back the next week and win. Now he'll
Speaker 1: you know at the time, You know, adversity is that
Speaker 1: it turns into joy. We've got to realize we always
Speaker 1: all have adversity in our lives. You cannot escape it.
Speaker 1: But it turns into joy if you persevere. And roma
Speaker 1: was richly the rewarded. It was a magnificent victory. And god,
Speaker 1: can that guy play. Wow, he is magnificent, so strong
Speaker 1: his back swing, his back swing is a little bit
Speaker 1: short for a young man. I'd like to see him
Speaker 1: do some exercises to increase the length of his back swing.
Speaker 1: You know. Funny enough, I've never seen in the history
Speaker 1: of golf a superstar. Now, what is a superstar? A
Speaker 1: superstar in my opinion, as a person who wins six
Speaker 1: majors and more. You've got to sit the bar for superstar.
Speaker 1: There's a vast difference between superstar and a star. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I've never seen a superstar other than Trevino. But even
Speaker 1: when he was young, who had a full back swing.
Speaker 1: I never saw anybody with a short back swing ever
Speaker 1: become a superstar. It's never happened in golf. It's very
Speaker 1: very interesting, you know. And there's no question too, if
Speaker 1: you consider people's achievements over a long time, over in decades,
Speaker 1: you always go with a guy with a longer backswing
Speaker 1: last longer. Yes, it's said for that. Yes, well, there
Speaker 1: are always the exceptions to the rule, and if the
Speaker 1: freaks have come out and do things that other people
Speaker 1: haven't done. But if I was John Rame, I'd be
Speaker 1: working on I'd been doing something. It's a type of
Speaker 1: exercise to really increase my turn on the back swing,
Speaker 1: because over the years it's going to stand him in
Speaker 1: good stead. But then somebody turns around and says, well,
Speaker 1: by that time, you'll left two hundred million or three
Speaker 1: hundred million in the bank. I said, but that's not
Speaker 1: what we all play for. We all played to what
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I mean, if I said you you could
Speaker 1: have taken your two Masters victories and given the prize
Speaker 1: money away, oh my goodness, and not have it. You'd
Speaker 1: rather have the Masters and the prize money. I know
Speaker 1: you kept the prize money. But if somebody, if you
Speaker 1: came up the last hole and somebody said, Ben, take
Speaker 1: a double bogey here and I'll give you a hundred million.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't have taken it, because then the Masters means
Speaker 1: so much. The money is negligible. Exact is negligible. I
Speaker 1: mean to think that we have lifetime memories and we've
Speaker 1: achieved something that people haven't is something in this game.
Speaker 1: But wow, it's a it's a sufficient reward to one
Speaker 1: there at Augusta. I know that you've won all over
Speaker 1: the world, all of majors. You want more tournaments in anybody? Uh,
Speaker 1: But you know, and I must say too, it's to me.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I listen to the arguments about which major means
Speaker 1: more to certain people. I can't. I can't take a
Speaker 1: part that argument that you know, I haven't won the
Speaker 1: other ones. I've been lucky to have won the Master's, Yes,
Speaker 1: but I to choose one over the other. It is
Speaker 1: pretty difficult when you start thinking about how many times
Speaker 1: that you and I both played against the competition in
Speaker 1: really important tournaments around the world have come up on top.
Speaker 1: Who's to say that one is not more important. Major
Speaker 1: tournaments are major tournaments, wow, and they're their special achievements
Speaker 1: and they should be viewed as such. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: different different facets of major tournaments appealed to certain people
Speaker 1: and their tastes and this and that. But uh, wow,
Speaker 1: I've been lucky enough to to one a couple of
Speaker 1: important tournaments. But wow, it's made my It's made my
Speaker 1: life and made me study different things about golf too
Speaker 1: that give me so much fulfillment and enjoy it's uh,
Speaker 1: different parts of the game and studying golf courses, to
Speaker 1: me is still my greatest hobby. And I've got the
Speaker 1: greatest partner in the world and Bill Coore, who's just
Speaker 1: the nice his person, and he's very imaginative. And we've
Speaker 1: been very lucky to build a few good courses and
Speaker 1: will continue. But certainly and to go around and meet
Speaker 1: people who love the game is what I enjoy. The
Speaker 1: game has been great to us and uh people, you know,
Speaker 1: I had the I had the the nicest way of
Speaker 1: starting my day and talking to a man that I've
Speaker 1: looked up. What up about my whole life? And it's you,
Speaker 1: the way that you've played and the way that you
Speaker 1: what you know and what you've been through and your
Speaker 1: tournament life and your family life, and and and and
Speaker 1: and doing things around the world to spread the gospel
Speaker 1: of this game. Uh. We want to wish the Player
Speaker 1: family the best. We always have pretty and shame to
Speaker 1: you and Julie and your family been and I have never,
Speaker 1: if I may respondment to say, I have never in
Speaker 1: my life time met a greater gentleman than you and Harvey.
Speaker 1: I know Harvey and he he's up there playing a
Speaker 1: bit of God. He never forgets to talk about you.
Speaker 1: So take care, my friend, and I'll see you Augusta. Yes,
Speaker 1: Sir Gary, take care, my friend. God bless and enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Enjoyed it. Don't forget to subscribe to The Players series
Speaker 1: on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.