1
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brussel from Bloomberg Radio.

2
00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 1: Tom Barrett, the founder of investment firm Colony Capital, was

3
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,080
Speaker 1: a friend and confidante of former President Trump, advising him

4
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:21,599
Speaker 1: on everything from cabinet appointments to foreign policy, something he

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,000
Speaker 1: discussed in an exclusive interview with Bloomberg a little over

6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: a week ago. From my simple beginnings of where I

7
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 1: came to have the gift and the opportunity to be

8
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: next to a president of the United States, to have

9
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,560
Speaker 1: the honor of running an inauguration, to be up close

10
00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 1: and personal on some issues that affect world order. Now,

11
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: federal prosecutors alleged that Barrack was too up close and

12
00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: personal on issues affecting world order, specifically affecting the United

13
00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 1: Arab Emirates. Barrick was arrested this week on charges of

14
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,959
Speaker 1: illegal lobbying for a foreign government, and allegation prosecutors have

15
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 1: successfully brought against several other Trump associates, in addition to

16
00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: charges of obstruction of justice and lying to the FBI.

17
00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 1: Joining me as former federal prosecutor. Jimmy Grula a professor

18
00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: at Notre Dame Law School. So, Jimmy, are these charges serious.

19
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 1: They are serious charges. I mean Tom Barrick is charged

20
00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,759
Speaker 1: with seven counts including failing to file as a foreign agent,

21
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,840
Speaker 1: conspiracy to act as an unregistered agent, obstruction of justice

22
00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,120
Speaker 1: specifically involving obstructing a federal grand jury investigation, and then

23
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,839
Speaker 1: four counts of making material false statements to a federal agent,

24
00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 1: specifically FBI agents. They are serious charge. I mean the

25
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,440
Speaker 1: obstruction of justice charge alone carries some maximum twenty year

26
00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 1: sentence of imprisonment. This is what's called a speaking indictment

27
00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 1: because it provides so much detail. Did some of the

28
00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 1: incidents charge stand out to you as particularly egregious, Well,

29
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 1: the ones I think that the most troublesome is where

30
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:09,400
Speaker 1: Barrick is actually attempting to influence presidential appointments. You know,

31
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,919
Speaker 1: for example, the U S Ambassador to the U A

32
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,200
Speaker 1: and where he's been asked by members of the U

33
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: A government to get information inside information on who the

34
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,960
Speaker 1: Trump administration is considering for key high level government posts

35
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,920
Speaker 1: such as the Secretary of State, the director of the CIA,

36
00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 1: and some other high level officials. And so what that

37
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,079
Speaker 1: demonstrates is that Barrick is actually acting again on behalf

38
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 1: of the foreign government. But is not being transparent. And

39
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:52,360
Speaker 1: so he has this very close relationship with former President Trump,

40
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: a relationship that he's maintained over I think approximately thirty years.

41
00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:02,400
Speaker 1: He served as an informal advisor to then presidential candidate Trump,

42
00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: president elect Trump, and then even as president. And so

43
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,000
Speaker 1: the conflict here is is he giving the former president

44
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,079
Speaker 1: advice that's in the best interests of the US government,

45
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,880
Speaker 1: or again, is he giving advice for the benefit of

46
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:22,079
Speaker 1: the U A. Barrack isn't the first of Trump's allies

47
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,120
Speaker 1: to be charged with violations of the Foreign Agents Registration

48
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 1: Act or FARAH, But I don't remember many high profile

49
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 1: indictments under FARAH before this was this not enforced much? Well,

50
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 1: it's infrequently used, I mean, so it's not the federal

51
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,280
Speaker 1: charge that we see brought on a regular basis. I mean,

52
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 1: it carries a five year sentence of incarceration. So it

53
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: is a felony, there's no question about it. But often

54
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,040
Speaker 1: this type of matter might be handled behind the scenes.

55
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,840
Speaker 1: There might be efforts made. You know there's a problem here,

56
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: Oh you know I'm being investigated, Ye, let me go register.

57
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,080
Speaker 1: But here what ends up happening is not only does

58
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: Barrick not register as a foreign agent even though he's

59
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,840
Speaker 1: acting on behalf of the UAE. But then he lies,

60
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,680
Speaker 1: at least the indictment alleges that he lies to the

61
00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,280
Speaker 1: FBI about the relationship that he has with the UAE,

62
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,520
Speaker 1: and the effort says he's undertaken on behalf of the UAE,

63
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: and he does so as a legend the dagon multiple times.

64
00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 1: And being a former federal prosecutor, you know that when

65
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 1: the FBI is asking those questions, usually there at the

66
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,840
Speaker 1: point where they have the answers and they just want

67
00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,320
Speaker 1: to know if you're telling them the truth. That's what's really,

68
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,000
Speaker 1: I think, kind of mind boggling here, because clearly he

69
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,960
Speaker 1: had to know or there was just this this inflated

70
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 1: sense of arrogance and that I'm smarter than the FBI,

71
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, for him, first of all to agree to

72
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 1: sit down and talk to the FBI and then to

73
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 1: respond to these specific questions that he was being asked

74
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: by the FBI and to deny his involvement of these activities.

75
00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 1: And you're right, he should have known that the FBI

76
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 1: had the answers to these questions. Probably the more prudent

77
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 1: course for him to have taken would have been to

78
00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,039
Speaker 1: refuse the invitation to be interviewed by the FBI, but

79
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,760
Speaker 1: he didn't. In an interview taped last week with Bloomberg TV,

80
00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,720
Speaker 1: Barrett gave no indication that he was aware of the

81
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 1: impending charges. Would this have been something that that the

82
00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,760
Speaker 1: FBI might have or prosecutors might have told him about

83
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 1: that an indictment was coming, Well, certainly he would have

84
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,000
Speaker 1: been put on notice, I think based upon the the

85
00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:38,320
Speaker 1: interviews that he had with the FBI, because they clearly,

86
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,320
Speaker 1: again as alleged in counts fourth through seven of the indictment,

87
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,760
Speaker 1: they asked him specific questions. He was asked specific questions

88
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:53,359
Speaker 1: by FBI agents regarding his relationship with UAE officials and

89
00:05:53,400 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 1: more specifically, activity specific activities undertaken on behalf of away

90
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:05,680
Speaker 1: government officials. For example, he was asked whether a Emarati

91
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:10,039
Speaker 1: official had asked him to download a messaging application to

92
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:15,560
Speaker 1: communicate directly with these foreign government officials and to acquire

93
00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: a dedicated telephone to communicate directly with you a government officials.

94
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean, so here he's being asked specific questions involving

95
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,480
Speaker 1: the nature of his relationship and activities with you a

96
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 1: government officials that clearly should have raised some red flags

97
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 1: for Barrack that would cause him to again to know

98
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 1: that he's under investigation. Now, whether or not he knew

99
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 1: that the investigation was so far along that an indictment

100
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 1: was eminent or an indictment would be shortly forthcoming, you know,

101
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,720
Speaker 1: that's a different question. But he certainly knew that he

102
00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,359
Speaker 1: was being investigated by the FBI. Does it seem like

103
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,800
Speaker 1: prosecutors have built a strong case against Barrick. It's incumbents

104
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,799
Speaker 1: that the FBI the d o J have a very strong,

105
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: compelling in case, strong credible evidence to convict. And what

106
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 1: I find interesting about this indictment is it doesn't depend

107
00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,520
Speaker 1: on percipient witnesses. It doesn't depend on oh, we've got

108
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,320
Speaker 1: somebody over here and we're going to get this guy

109
00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,960
Speaker 1: to flip and we're going to make promises that will

110
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 1: dismiss charges if he cooperates and testifies. That's not this case.

111
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,880
Speaker 1: And of course those types of witnesses or credibility is

112
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,760
Speaker 1: always highly suspect. This is largely a document based case,

113
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 1: based upon text messages and other types of communications that

114
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 1: they've been able to download. And here the prosecutors detail

115
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 1: multiple communications between Barrick and U, a government official. It's extensive,

116
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 1: and they have quotes exact language that he used. It

117
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 1: clearly establishes and proves that he was acting on behalf

118
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 1: of this foreign government with respect to promoting their interests,

119
00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,280
Speaker 1: promoting the foreign government interests with the Trump and ministertion.

120
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 1: So it'll be difficult to see what legal defense they

121
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,120
Speaker 1: raise in an effort to overcome what appears to be

122
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: a very compelling case, at least on paper. Is there

123
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: a chance of Barrack flipping The Eastern District of New York,

124
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: which brought these charges, is also investigating fraud in the

125
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 1: Trump inaugural campaign, and Barrick was chairman of the inaugural committee.

126
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's certainly possible. I think the equation here,

127
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:31,520
Speaker 1: the calculation I should say that Barry is going to

128
00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 1: undertake is what's the likelihood of conviction? A second, if

129
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm convicted, what kind of sentence am I realistically looking

130
00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,880
Speaker 1: to receive? And if ultimately he concludes that yeah, I mean,

131
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,480
Speaker 1: if I'm convicted and I have no prior conviction, I

132
00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,960
Speaker 1: haven't been involved in any criminal activity and therefore based

133
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 1: upon the sentencing guidelines. The sentence is going to be,

134
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, five years, three years, two years, whatever, am

135
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,520
Speaker 1: I be? Relatively a short sentence that may not be

136
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 1: enough russure, that may not be enough leverage exerted by

137
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,440
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice to cause him to cooperate and

138
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 1: share information that could implicate former President Trump and maybe

139
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: other allies of former President Trump. Thanks for being on

140
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,040
Speaker 1: the show, Jimmy. That's Professor Jimmy Garule of Notre Dame

141
00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,960
Speaker 1: Law School. The June heat wave in the Northwest shattered

142
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 1: temperature records and caused the deaths of hundreds of people.

143
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,200
Speaker 1: More people lie of extreme heat in the US each

144
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,480
Speaker 1: year than from other natural disasters, but FEMA devotes very

145
00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,880
Speaker 1: little of its resources to deal with extreme heat. Columbia

146
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,280
Speaker 1: Law School professor Michael Gerard, Faculty director of the Saban

147
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 1: Center for Climate Change Law, says FEMA has the authority

148
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,840
Speaker 1: under law to do more in advance to lower heat

149
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: related deaths. He's written a piece for Bloomberg Law and

150
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 1: he joins me now so to get an idea of

151
00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: just how hot it's been. Tell us about July nine

152
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: in Death Valley, California. We're seeing world records being set

153
00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,280
Speaker 1: about heat. It was a hundred and thirty degrees fahrenheit

154
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 1: on July ninth, which seems to be the world record

155
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: for heat. And we're seeing temperatures in the one twenties

156
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 1: and various parts of the world which had previously been

157
00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,280
Speaker 1: almost unheard of. I think a lot of people when

158
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,079
Speaker 1: they think of heat waves, they don't think of heat

159
00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: waves as causing a lot of deaths compared to tornadoes

160
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,560
Speaker 1: and hurricanes and floods. But that's just not right, is it.

161
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: That's right? The National Weather Service counts off the number

162
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 1: of people who die every year from natural disasters, and

163
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 1: heat is by far the leading cause of death. Heat waves,

164
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,319
Speaker 1: far ahead of floods or tornadoes or hurricane. A lot

165
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: of people die, and these numbers are probably underreported because

166
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,959
Speaker 1: many people who have heart attacks and so forth that

167
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,839
Speaker 1: aren't directly attributed to heat. How much does FEMA do?

168
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 1: How much time and resources does it devote to heat waves?

169
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,280
Speaker 1: Right now, FEMA does almost thing on heat waves. They

170
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,760
Speaker 1: basically have concentrated on declared emergencies and disasters, and there

171
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,600
Speaker 1: haven't been any about heat waves. Part of the issue

172
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,160
Speaker 1: is that the conventional kinds of disasters like hurricanes and

173
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: tornadoes and floods cause a lot of physical damage. Heat

174
00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 1: waves don't cause so much physical damage, so after they're over,

175
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 1: they don't require a lot of that recovery. But they

176
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 1: kill a lot of people, and so far FEMA has

177
00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 1: not really paid much attention to them. Is that because

178
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:34,160
Speaker 1: the real way to battle heat waves would be environmental changes. Well,

179
00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,280
Speaker 1: in the long term, we need to drastically reduce great

180
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 1: house gas emissions in order to reduce the heat waste,

181
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,080
Speaker 1: but that's going to take a very long time, and

182
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 1: that's not femus job. But there are lots of things

183
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,040
Speaker 1: that FEMA could help with in the short term that

184
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,360
Speaker 1: would help people cope with heat waves and would greatly

185
00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,160
Speaker 1: reduce the depth toll. One of the things you suggest

186
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,040
Speaker 1: in your article is cooling centers. That's right. Some cities

187
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: have set up the centers in convention halls or school

188
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,800
Speaker 1: auditoriums or lots of other buildings that are air conditioned

189
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 1: and people can just go and hang out when it's

190
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:13,040
Speaker 1: very hot. Who are seeing temperatures that basically are almost

191
00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 1: impossible to endure if you don't have air conditioning. Lots

192
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 1: of people don't have air conditioning, it breaks down, So

193
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,880
Speaker 1: these are centers where people can just go and be

194
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 1: cool and drink water and so forth. So we have

195
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 1: some of those around the country that is kind of sporadic.

196
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:32,000
Speaker 1: They're often not well publicized. People have difficulty in getting

197
00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,559
Speaker 1: there very often. And so that's something that is similar

198
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 1: to the emergency shoulders we see after flooding. In that

199
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 1: kind of thing. It's something where FEMA could could help

200
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,480
Speaker 1: out a great deal. So would FEMA be constructing new centers. No,

201
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,720
Speaker 1: you don't have to build anything. These are all existing buildings.

202
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 1: It's mostly a matter of organization and publicizing it and

203
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 1: arranging transportation and maybe some supplies like cots and so forth.

204
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,080
Speaker 1: That no new instruction group be involved. So it seems

205
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,120
Speaker 1: pretty easy. So why wouldn't FEMA be doing this already? Well,

206
00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,680
Speaker 1: FEMA didn't used to have the authority to do a

207
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,040
Speaker 1: lot of work in advance of disasters. Their focus has

208
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 1: been urgency response and then then the aftermath. But in

209
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,440
Speaker 1: two thousand eighteen, Congress amended the law and provided for

210
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 1: a new program for preparing for emergencies. And I'm arguing

211
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,079
Speaker 1: that FEMA ought to devote a chunk of the money

212
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: under that new program to preparing for heatwave. Do you

213
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 1: have backing behind you? Are there any other groups that

214
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 1: are calling for this. We haven't heard a lot of

215
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 1: calls yet, but we're trying to get the word out

216
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,880
Speaker 1: and I've been in communication with FEMA about this, and

217
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,880
Speaker 1: i know they're looking at it. You suggest some other

218
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,880
Speaker 1: simple things that FEMA can do to lower heat related

219
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,719
Speaker 1: death tolls, like just painting roofs white. That's right. One

220
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,960
Speaker 1: of the big issues we have is called the urban

221
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,199
Speaker 1: heat island effect. It tends to be much hot are

222
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,680
Speaker 1: in cities than in the countryside, and that's largely because

223
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,440
Speaker 1: so much of the surface is covered with buildings and

224
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,800
Speaker 1: pavement and sidewalks and so forth. If you paint the

225
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:14,920
Speaker 1: roofs of buildings white, that makes it cooler overall, particularly

226
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: inside the buildings. If you grow a lot more trees,

227
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 1: if you have a lot more vegetation, that can make

228
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,640
Speaker 1: a very substantial difference. We also see racial disparities here.

229
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,240
Speaker 1: It's been shown that the communities that are low income

230
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,120
Speaker 1: or high proportion of people of color tend to be

231
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 1: hotter in the summer because they have more asphalts of

232
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,520
Speaker 1: tower trees. That's something that can be fixed, and in

233
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,080
Speaker 1: the scheme of things, it's not that expensive. Why aren't

234
00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 1: local communities doing this themselves. Well, some local communities are.

235
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 1: New York City has something called a Million Trees campaign

236
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: UH to plant a million trees and they have now

237
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,080
Speaker 1: exceeded that. A number of other cities have done it,

238
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 1: but not nearly as many have done it. And there's

239
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 1: no organized national effort to try to reduce the urban

240
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,800
Speaker 1: heat island effect. And I think FEMA could really take

241
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 1: the lead and trying to make sure this happens. Maybe

242
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to pay for all of it, but they

243
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 1: could help organize it and provide financial assistance to those

244
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 1: communities that really don't have the money to do it themselves.

245
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,360
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some of the other legal tools that

246
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 1: you discussed. So, California and Oregon have set safety standards.

247
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 1: That's right. At the national level, OSHA has not set

248
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,080
Speaker 1: safety standards for the occupational setting for extreme heat. They've

249
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 1: been petitioned to do what. They have studies saying they

250
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 1: had to do it, but they haven't done it yet.

251
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 1: They're now looking at it. California and Oregon have set

252
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 1: up heat standards, especially for outdoor workers, you know, farm workers,

253
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 1: outdoor utility workers, all kinds of other people who have

254
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 1: to work outside are exposed to heat and it can

255
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: be really dangerous for them. So Oregon and California set

256
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,160
Speaker 1: up standards requiring breaks and shade and water and other

257
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,000
Speaker 1: ways to help reduce the negative health effects of working

258
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,200
Speaker 1: outside in the heat. So you think that that's something

259
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: that OSHA should do. Yes, OSHA should do that. They've

260
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: been petitioned by some some groups to do it, and

261
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,560
Speaker 1: it's something clearly within their authority and it's something that

262
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,800
Speaker 1: they absolutely should undertake. And you mentioned that Arizona has

263
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: put some requirements on landlords. Yeah, almost everywhere landlords are

264
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 1: required to provide heat in the winter. It's part of

265
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,360
Speaker 1: what's called the warranty of habitability. Arizona has put that

266
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,480
Speaker 1: in the in the summer that then it went when

267
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,040
Speaker 1: it's very hot, landlords have to provide cooling. That's something

268
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 1: that I think also should be expanded nationwide. We've seen

269
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 1: in the last few months that places like Washington State

270
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 1: and Oregon that are usually not very hot and therefore

271
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have air conditioning, they can

272
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,040
Speaker 1: oppressively hot. We need to protect the tenants in buildings,

273
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,080
Speaker 1: and imposing this requirement on landlords is one way to

274
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: do that. There's another simple solution. Low income people could

275
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,960
Speaker 1: be given money to buy air conditioners. That's right. There

276
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: are programs that have been around a long time to

277
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 1: help low income people pay for heating oil so that

278
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,359
Speaker 1: they don't freeze in the winner. A few states provide

279
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,440
Speaker 1: money to buy air conditioners, but a problem is that

280
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,720
Speaker 1: a lot of poor people can't afford the power to

281
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 1: run the air conditioners. So in addition to helping them

282
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: buy the air conditioners, they also need subsidies for the

283
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 1: power bills to run the art conditioners. What do you

284
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,120
Speaker 1: do to try to get states and the federal government

285
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 1: to work on these I think that FEMA is the

286
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: natural agency to organize a nationwide effort to do this.

287
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: We've seen in the last few months these killer heat

288
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 1: waves that have been hitting parts of the country that

289
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,879
Speaker 1: are not accustomed to it. I think that's increasing overall

290
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,879
Speaker 1: consciousness of the need to deal with heat waves, since

291
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 1: they are, as I said, the most lethal impact of

292
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,200
Speaker 1: climate change in the United States. A lot more people

293
00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 1: die from heat waves than floods of hurricanes or tourin

294
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: does and it serves national attention like those other kinds

295
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 1: of weather disasters. Ever see for a long time, how

296
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,439
Speaker 1: has the Biden administration been doing on the environment. I

297
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,600
Speaker 1: think that Biden has put in place a remarkably strong

298
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 1: team in the White House, at E p A, and

299
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,920
Speaker 1: the Interior Department and and everywhere else. Of the message

300
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: has clearly gone out that the administration is working very

301
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: hard on climate change. Everything that they could do by

302
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 1: the stroke of a pen, they've pretty much done. In

303
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,879
Speaker 1: terms of rescinding the executive orders from Trump that weakened

304
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,960
Speaker 1: environmental regulations. They're really working very hard that We'll see

305
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,399
Speaker 1: what happens in Congress. The negotiations that are going on

306
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 1: right now about the Infrastructure Bill. There's a lot that

307
00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,120
Speaker 1: Biden can do, and he's doing with his existing legal authority.

308
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: There's a lot more that he could do if Congress

309
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 1: were to add to that authority and provide the money.

310
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,040
Speaker 1: And we'll see in the days and weeks to come

311
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: if that actually happens. Tell me what there is in

312
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 1: the Infrastructure Bill that addresses climate change or the environment.

313
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,240
Speaker 1: One of the most important proposals is the Clean Energy

314
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: Standard CIER, a law that a certain percentage, and ultimately

315
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 1: one of the electricity has to come from zero emission sources,

316
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,840
Speaker 1: which would be renewables and a little bit of remaining nuclear.

317
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 1: That's one very important issue. There's also money in various

318
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 1: versions of that for beating up the electric transmission system,

319
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,639
Speaker 1: which is needed to take power generated by wind and

320
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: solar to to where it's needed. There's some money from

321
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,800
Speaker 1: mass transit. There's money for improving water systems. So there's

322
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 1: a lot of money that it would help the climate

323
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: situation at various versions of the bills, we don't know

324
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:53,640
Speaker 1: what ultimately emerge. I've read that some environmental advocates are

325
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 1: disappointed in Biden because they don't think the administration is

326
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: moving fast enough on environment Yeah, the Sunrise Movement and

327
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 1: a number of other progressive organizations are complaining that Biden

328
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 1: hasn't gone far enough. I think it's uh, you know

329
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: that he's getting a lot of pushback from the right

330
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: that he's he's also getting pushed back from the left. UM,

331
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: and Biden is making his judgments about how much he

332
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: can push through in Congress. We'll see how it how

333
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 1: it plays out in Congress. Is this a partisan issue? Oh? Yes, UM,

334
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,080
Speaker 1: Climate change is one of the most partisan issues we've

335
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 1: ever seen. The statistics show that the current Republican Party

336
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: has adopted as a matter of doctrine that they don't

337
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 1: believe that human cause climate change is happening, or if

338
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: it is, that, I don't think the government should do

339
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: anything about that. The Democrats are on exactly the opposite side.

340
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: So that's one of the major problems we have, and

341
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 1: with the Senate split fifty fifty, it's very hard to

342
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: get anything done. It almost seems absurd with the different

343
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 1: problems we've been having with heat and cold, and that

344
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: people don't believe in climate change. Well, of course it's

345
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 1: not the only issue where it's absurd that people can't

346
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: think of, as vaccination being number one. But I think

347
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: that the increased terrible climate change problems we've seen, the

348
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 1: floods and the hurricanes in the US, the catastrophic flooding

349
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: we're now seeing in Europe and China and parts of Africa,

350
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: parts of other parts of Asia, they're all adding up.

351
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,959
Speaker 1: There was a magazine cover the other day saying no

352
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: one is safe. It used to be thought that there

353
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: were parts of the world that were completely immune from

354
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: climate change, but we know that is no longer the case.

355
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 1: The combination of heat, heat, and wildfires and flooding and

356
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: everything else mean that there are climate related dangers globally,

357
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: and hopefully more people will wake up to that and

358
00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 1: take the decisive action that is needed to drastically reduce

359
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: screenest gas emissions that are causing most of the climate change,

360
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: and take actions to prepare for the climate change that

361
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: is coming regardless of our best efforts. Thanks for being

362
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Laws Show. That's Professor Michael Gerard of

363
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,280
Speaker 1: Columbia Law School, and that's it for the edition of

364
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Show. I'm June Grosso and you're listening

365
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,120
Speaker 1: to Bloomberg