1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. We are your host. 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 3: I'm a veg and tee Lay and I'm her baby sister, 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 3: Rashia Piccuerrero, and as always, our favorite Texan Trevor Young 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 3: is here as well. 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, welcome back. 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 3: I wish we were all together still, but I do 14 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: love that we're virtually together. I have a question for 15 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 3: you all. So I am not the biggest book reader 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 3: like I used to be, and I think with social 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 3: media and with screens and everything, I feel like I 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 3: kind of let that get away from me. But lately 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 3: I've been reading a ton of autobiographies and right now 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 3: I am obsessed with Simu Liu's book and Semu Liu. 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 3: For those of you who don't know, he is Marvel's 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 3: superhero Shang Chi and he has a book out called 23 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: We Were Dreamers, an immigrant superhero origin story, and it's 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: so like just beautiful to see what his parents went through, 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 3: you know, they immigrated from China to Canada. And then 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: of course he's here now in America. But I want 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 3: to know, what are the two of you reading? What 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 3: inspires you when you're not here with me on Facing Evil? 29 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I really love books. I love to 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: hold them. I like the smell of them, and especially 31 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: during the pandemic. Like, I've read so many different autobiographies, 32 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 2: but the book that I am on right now is 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 2: viol Davis, which is called Finding Me. And you know, 34 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 2: I've always been a huge fan of hers, but to 35 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: read her story and where she came from and where 36 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: she is now is truly inspiring. What about you, Trevor. 37 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: So, I've got about three books I'm in the middle of. 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: I'm one of those people who's like reading a bunch 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: of different stuff at once and like puts one down 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: for a couple of days and moves on to another. 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 3: Of course you are, I love it. 42 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, So on my mantle, I've got a collection of 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: stories by J. R. R. Tolkien. It's The Unfinished Tales, 44 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: which is, as the name implies, a bunch of unfinished 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: stories that he had written that kind of fit into 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: the world of Middle Earth, which is Lord of the 47 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: Rings for this, Yeah, I'm also reading a biography of 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,679 Speaker 1: Anthony Bourdain which is really good and then love it. Yeah, 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: I miss him. And then I'm also reading the fourth 50 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: installment of Frank Kurbert's doing series. Dune is one of 51 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: my favorite sci fi series, and I'm almost about the 52 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: fourth book, which is called God Emperor of Dune. 53 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 3: How many books are there in Dune? 54 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: So there are six main books that Frank Herbert Rose 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: the primary author. His son Brian Herbert has kind of 56 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: carried on his legacy writing a bunch of spinoff series 57 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: in prequel series. A lot of the fans of the 58 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: Dune series don't super love those books, so I kind 59 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: of take a grain of salt with the spinoffs. But 60 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: if we're talking like core canon, it's just those six books. 61 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 3: The six so there could potentially be six movies, got it? 62 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: Or more because they're very long. 63 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: Right right, right, right, right right? 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: With that being said, Trevor, will you take us through 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: today's case. 66 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: Roseanne Quinn was a twenty eight year old woman who 67 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:54,839 Speaker 1: was killed on New Year's Day of nineteen seventy three. 68 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: She was a school teacher and a single woman who 69 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: lived by herself in New York City. On the evening 70 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: of January first, she went to a bar in her neighborhood. 71 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: There she met a man named John Wayne Wilson, and 72 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: the two went back to her apartment together. When she 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: didn't show up for work a few days later, a 74 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 1: coworker went to go check in on her. They found 75 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: Roseanne Quinn dead, stabbed to death in her own apartment. 76 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: A manhunt began for Wilson, who was eventually found and arrested, 77 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: but while in jail, he hanged himself, and so no 78 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: charges were ever officially filed in the murder of Roseanne Quinn. 79 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: After Roseanne was killed, many criticized her sexual proclivities, suggesting 80 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: a so called promiscuous lifestyle was the reason for her murder, 81 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: but since then feminist scholars have pointed out that this 82 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: rhetoric was both false and harmful. The events also inspired 83 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: a popular novel and subsequent movie, Looking for Mister Goodbar 84 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: and So. Who was Roseanne Quinn? What were the actual 85 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: events surrounding her death and how did those of create 86 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: the perfect conditions for a national media frenzy. 87 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 3: So when I think about this case, I think about 88 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 3: us needing to flip the script, right, Like I feel 89 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 3: like Roseanne was portrayed a certain way, and you know 90 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 3: what happened to her is one of those things that like, 91 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 3: it's all of our worst nightmare, right Eve, Like, yeah, 92 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 3: you know going home with someone or in this case, 93 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 3: you're bringing them into your own home and then you 94 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: end up getting murdered. I mean, it's horrible to even 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: think about. I know this happened, you know with Angela's 96 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 3: Simota that we just spoke about not that long ago. 97 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: But it's yeah, the worst worst thing you can imagine happening, right, 98 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 3: just you. 99 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 2: Know, coming home from a night of dancing or partying 100 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: and you know, going to your safe space at home. 101 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: It you know, it's just, yeah, it's really devastating. And 102 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 2: this is one of those cases in which the true 103 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: story of what happened to Rosennu in nineteen seventy three, 104 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: it has almost been overshadowed by this book that I 105 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: was speaking of earlier and the movie Russia. Did you 106 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 2: ever see the movie Looking for Mister Goodbar? 107 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: You know, I never did, And you know, I always 108 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: try to watch documentaries or movies or anything about all 109 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 3: of the cases that we're covering so that it can 110 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: kind of get into my brain even more. I mean, 111 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: on top of all the research that are amazing researcher 112 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: Claudia helps us with, but I couldn't even find it. 113 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I know that Diane Keaton starred in it, 114 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: but I couldn't even get a snippet of it on YouTube. 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, you can get like snippets 116 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: of it, but it's so hard to find the entire movie, 117 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: you know, in its entirety, like unless you go out 118 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: and probably rent it somewhere. But I don't even know. 119 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: Are there Blockbuster? Are there Idyot? Those video plays? 120 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: I think left? Yeah, ever have you seen the movie? 121 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: I have not seen the movie, though I've read quite 122 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 1: a bit about it, and my understanding is that it 123 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: didn't have the most tasteful representation of what Roseanne went 124 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: through or how best to portray her. I mean, I 125 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: think that flipped the script thing that you mentioned earlier. 126 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: Rashia is a big part of the story, and we're 127 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: going to talk about it a lot today. But you know, 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: the fact that she, essentially, according to the media, wasn't 129 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: allowed to do this thing that is very natural and, 130 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: at least in today's world, considered to be an expectation 131 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: for anybody who has a social life. Right, that that 132 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: was somehow, you know, her fault for pursuing any sort 133 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: of relationship outside of a domestic family situation. So again, 134 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: I haven't seen the movie, but my understanding is that 135 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: it didn't portray that very well. So I guess I'm 136 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: a little bit turned off by it, but maybe I'll 137 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: change my mind on that. 138 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, Trevor, what you're saying, I can totally see that, 139 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 3: because this happened at a time in history that there 140 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: was this huge cultural flashpoint, right, an era of a revolution. 141 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 3: This was the second wave of the feminist movement, and 142 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: the purpose of that feminist movement was to champion reproductive 143 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 3: and workplace rights and to redefine the expectations of women's 144 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: personal and political lives. 145 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting timing wise that this was this case 146 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: happened right in the middle of this second wave feminist movement. 147 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: But generally what you are seeing is that, you know, 148 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: it's more common to have more single career women and 149 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: it's more common for you know, women to not settle 150 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: down super fast and have children and want to get 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: married and all those things. And this is all happening 152 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies, as you know, all sorts 153 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: of other things are happening with the cultural revolutions. So 154 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: you also get expanded access to birth control. The pill 155 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: was first approved by the FDA in nineteen sixty, but 156 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: it took the Supreme Court case in nineteen seventy two 157 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: for it to become legal for unmarried women. Wow. 158 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: Wow, I didn't know that. 159 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: I mean, that is just crazy. But the next year, 160 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: of course, you have Roe versus Wade, and that's legalizing abortion. 161 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: And this was a huge time and we can get 162 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: into a whole discussion about this, you know. 163 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 3: Ye a whole nother cantor we won't. 164 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. 165 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 3: But meanwhile, you know, there are a lot more women 166 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 3: working outside of the home, you know, so they were 167 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 3: moving into a space where they could control their own bodies, 168 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: do their own thing, both professionally and sexually. And the 169 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 3: idea of casual sex was you know, i'd say, gaining 170 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 3: more acceptance, especially during you know, the sixties and the seventies, 171 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 3: and during this time, but you know, not everywhere, but 172 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,360 Speaker 3: in places like New York absolutely, Like I think it 173 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 3: was definitely more acceptable. Think so, yeah, And I think 174 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: that brings us back to Roseanne Quinn and that's where 175 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 3: she was living in New York. 176 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, she was She was born and raised in the 177 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: Bronx and this was in nineteen forty four. She was 178 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: a big part of a Catholic family of five, and 179 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, she grew up in this very nice middle 180 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: class upbringing, and then the family eventually moved to New 181 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 2: Jersey and she graduated high school in nineteen sixty two 182 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 2: and she got a degree in elementary education. So of 183 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 2: course she becomes a teacher, which is obviously a very 184 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 2: traditional job, you know, for a female at the time, 185 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: right at the time, but she began teaching at Saint 186 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: Joseph's School for the Death in the Bronx and she 187 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: taught eight year old kids, and from what we understand, 188 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: she was apparently just be loved by her students and 189 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: her fellow teachers, So it seems like she had really 190 00:10:55,720 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: found her calling. She really enjoyed, you know, teaching the 191 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: deaf kids. 192 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and earlier that year, in May, she moved into 193 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: her very own two bedroom apartment on the Upper west 194 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 3: Side in a building that's actually still there. 195 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was going to say, you know, now on 196 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: the Upper west Side, you know, to have a teacher's salary, 197 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: you could not touch that. It would be untouched odly now, right, 198 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: But back then, you know, she's living on her own 199 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: on the Upper west Side, Like, what a life. 200 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure it's a very nice apartment, but yeah, 201 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 1: I doubt she could afford that today, right, Yeah, Well, 202 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: according to the New York Times story about this crime, 203 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: she chose that apartment for quote, the comparative security of 204 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: the building and the street. So I guess there's a 205 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: bit of sad irony there that that ended up not 206 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: really helping her. But yeah, in general, yeah, it does 207 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: seem that Roseanne Quinn had a pretty nice life going 208 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: for herself. She was twenty eight years old at the time, 209 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: She had a job that she really liked where she 210 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: was respected, and she was living in Manhattan. She also 211 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: had a very active social life, lots of friends. She 212 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: was often spotted reading books at bars on the West Side. 213 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, it sounds like a pretty pleasant life up 214 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: until disaster strikes. 215 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: Right. 216 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: Something that you said really makes me think about the 217 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: movie that was made, you know, based on this crime, 218 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: and that's the movie Looking for Mister Goodbar with Diane 219 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: Keaton's character. You know, they portray her as a fairly happy, 220 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: go lucky person. Obviously you two haven't seen the movie yet, 221 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: but you know they give her the same job and 222 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: she is a teacher for death children. But in the contrast, 223 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: you know, the real Roseanne Quinn like always right, you 224 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: never see her on the phone, like talking to her friends, 225 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 2: or meeting up with the teachers, or you know, for 226 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 2: drinks like what you just said, Like what you just described. 227 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: You don't see that in the movie. There are always 228 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 2: these shots of her where she's like sitting alone in 229 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: this big, dark, empty apartment, and she's always alone at bars. 230 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: But I did find myself saying out loud to the screen, 231 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: like where where are all your friends? Like you know, 232 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 2: why are you always by yourself? 233 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it sounds like the movie was trying to 234 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: set up a picture of a woman or a girl 235 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 3: who was a loner, and as if to say, maybe 236 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: that's why she goes home with all of these men. 237 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: Is that what I'm hearing you say? 238 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: Yes, But there's even this dramatic scene where she, you know, 239 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: she leaves her family behind, she moves to New York 240 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: and there's this feminist movement that's happening, and it leads 241 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: you to believe that, Okay, well, women are you know, 242 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: being taken away from their their safety nets, their families, 243 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: and they're going off to live in this dangerous solitude, 244 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 2: you know, in New York City, I mean a. 245 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 3: Big, scary New York City. 246 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: I guess that's what they're trying to portray there. 247 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems to me to be a rather surface 248 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: level attempted trying to understand feminism, you know, and also 249 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: trying to imply that Rosanne herself was like an avowed feminist, 250 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: when in reality, I don't think we have any way 251 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: to know that. I don't really think she considered herself 252 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: a feminist. I think she was just a normal person 253 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: trying to like live her life right right, didn't really 254 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: fit in with the normal expected lifestyle that was being 255 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: impressed upon her. And really I really think it's that simple. 256 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: But the movie, I guess, has to try and tell 257 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: a story or create a narrative that you know, makes 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: a point. 259 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: Yes, you are so right, Trevor, you know, but she 260 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: definitely lived with that kind of freedom that came from 261 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: the feminist movement. Like I don't think she could have 262 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 3: done that ten years before, like living on her own, 263 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 3: having her own job and being unmarried and doing what 264 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 3: she did. But anyway, she did have friends and she 265 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: was seemingly happy. But you know, shocker, she takes men 266 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 3: home to sleep with despite all of that, And it's 267 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: almost as if she's a normal, well adjusted young woman 268 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: who likes to have sex, like sex is aoka in mind. 269 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: She's just living her life. 270 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, Trevor said that, just living her life, yep. 271 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: And so this is what she's trying to do. On 272 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: New Year's Day of nineteen seventy three, on that day, 273 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: Roseanne Quinn goes to a bar just across the street 274 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: from her apartment, and that's a place called Wm Tweeds. 275 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: And we know that there were two men there that 276 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: night who were friends with each other and their names 277 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: were John Wayne Wilson and Gary Guests. So at about 278 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: eleven that night, Guests leaves the bar, and a bit later, 279 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: Roseanne Quinn takes John Wayne Wilson home to her apartment. 280 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 3: And that's the last time that anyone will see Roseanne 281 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: Quinn alive. 282 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: And we'll hear more about that after we take a 283 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: quick break. 284 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: On New Year's Day, nineteen seventy three, Roseanne Quinn leaves 285 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: the neighborhood bar with a stranger. That man is named 286 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: John Wayne Wilson, and Roseanne Quinn invites him back to 287 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 3: her home, an apartment on the seventh floor across the street. 288 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: Once they're there, the two reportedly smoked some pocololo or 289 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 3: marijuana and attempted to have sex. Wilson later told authorities 290 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 3: that when he failed to perform, Roseanne mocked him for 291 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: it and told him to leave. This is when an 292 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 3: argument ensued and he took a knife, and he ended 293 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: up stabbing her fourteen times. Afterwards, he covered up her 294 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: body with a bathroom, cleaned himself up in her shower, 295 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: and wiped down her entire apartment before leaving. This is 296 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: all what he says happened. 297 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just disgusting, you know. But of course, you know, 298 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 2: we have to pause here for a moment because we 299 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: really don't know exactly how it went down. You know, 300 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: he he makes this classic excuse, right that she mocked 301 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: him for you know, not being able to perform his 302 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: manly sexual duties, you know, and that somehow justifies this 303 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: anger and then murder. Right, And also I have to 304 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: go back to the movie, and again we don't know, 305 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 2: we don't know what happened, but in the movie, you know, 306 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: they portray him to be possibly gay in the movie closeted, 307 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: closeted gay. So but again I don't know if that 308 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 2: is true or not. But the thing about this is 309 00:17:55,280 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: the police actually buy this excuse, you know, not being 310 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: able to get it up exactly, of not being able 311 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: to perform. Are you joking or. 312 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: That the rage is justified as a result, right, I 313 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: mean different times, But that's wild. I mean this kind 314 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: of goes back to the Dominique dun case. Yeah, we 315 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: looked at a few episodes ago. Obviously that was twelve 316 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: years later, but we had a judge sympathizing with a 317 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: guy who strangled his girlfriend, saying he was caught up 318 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: in the heat of passion because she'd angered him in 319 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: some way, right, And he was only found guilty of 320 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: voluntary manslaughter as a result. So I really don't think 321 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: you're wrong. I think again, in both cases, law enforcement 322 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: or the legal system is citing with the men in 323 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: these situations and saying that their justifications are totally valid. 324 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: You know, maybe Roseanne Quinn did actually mock Jane Wayne Wilson, 325 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: but do we really think that gave him a right 326 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: to harm her physically and then kill her? Absolutely not, No, 327 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: of course, obviously not. It's wild that anybody would ever 328 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: take that perspective. 329 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, no way. 330 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: No. 331 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 3: So after he leaves Roseanne Quinn's apartment, Wilson then goes 332 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: to his friend Gary Guests, and that's the same friend 333 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: who he'd been with at the bar the night before, 334 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: and he ends up confessing to Geary Guests what he 335 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 3: had done to Rozanne, but Guests did not believe him 336 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 3: and thought he was just trying to get money home 337 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 3: for a flight to Miami. So anyway, he bought him 338 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 3: the plane ticket home, and Wilson flew to Miami, where 339 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 3: he picked up his wife. I have no clue what 340 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 3: he actually told his wife, but the two of them 341 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 3: then flew together to Indiana, where Wilson's mother was living. 342 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: I just have to stop you there, and you think about, 343 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 2: like if you have a friend who comes back and 344 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 2: tells you that, like, what wouldn't you kill you someone, 345 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: what wouldn't you be Like what did you say? Like right, 346 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 2: wouldn't you want to know? 347 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: Like you wouldn't pay for them to get out of town? 348 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 2: Not at all. So anyhow, meanwhile, back in New York, 349 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 2: Rosanne Quinn, you know, her friends and her colleagues, they're 350 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: getting extremely worried. She hadn't showed up to school where 351 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: she taught, and so on January third, a fellow teacher 352 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: went to her apartment and of course, when she didn't 353 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: answer the door, he had the building superintendent open it, 354 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: and that's when they found her. Sadly. 355 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a bit of a gruesome crime scene. 356 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: So she's laid out on her fold out bed. Not 357 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: only had she been stabbed fourteen times, but she had 358 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: also been raped, and the murderer had placed on top 359 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: of her face a sculpted bust of another woman. 360 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 3: Oh that's a lot to intake, as all of you know, 361 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 3: the murder scenes are, of course, but this is really 362 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: when the press frenzy begins. 363 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you can imagine like that kind of 364 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: story is to blow up very fast, right for a 365 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: lot of reasons. But the immediate news coverage following Roseanne's 366 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: murder doesn't really focus on this woman getting killed, but 367 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: more about how scandalous the whole thing appears to be. 368 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: So the daily news headline takes up three quarters of 369 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: the page and reads, in all caps, quote teacher found 370 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: nude and slain. And I'd say that's pretty typical of 371 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: a lot of like news coverage of the time, right, 372 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: Like I think outlets really made a point to like 373 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: talk about her physical appearance, like how pretty she was, 374 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: talk about how young she was, and then of course 375 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: all like the weird extreme violence and the bust and 376 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 1: all that stuff. But it was weird. It was like 377 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: her status as this attractive young woman who was killed 378 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: after a sexual encounter. You know, it was portrayed as 379 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: almost like titillating, right, like it was just for the 380 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: tabloids exactly. 381 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say. And I was 382 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: going to say, it's just it's so so sad, you know, 383 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: because again, as we said, she's just this independent woman 384 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: who's living her life, having a great time. She's a teacher, 385 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: she has people who love her, and then to be 386 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: you know, blasted right all over the newspapers in this 387 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: sensationalism and titillation, you know, especially by using that word nude, 388 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: you know, and the pictures that they showed, Like, just 389 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: how awful is that, you know, for her family and 390 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: all of the people that knew her. You know, just 391 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: think about her student and the student. That's exactly what 392 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: I was going to say, her students. 393 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: So it's interesting. There's an essay by Susan Brown Miller. 394 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: And Susan Brown Miller wrote the famous book Against Our Will, 395 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 3: and that book helped change the way we talk about rape. 396 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 3: But in this essay she talks about the headline that 397 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 3: you mentioned, Trevor teacher found nude and slain. She writes, quote, 398 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: the introduction of the operative word nude was significant. No 399 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: longer simply a victim of male violence, Roseanne Quinn had 400 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: been transmogrified in death into an object of sexual fantasy. 401 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: A teacher was not even naked, but nude, nude the 402 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 3: way strippers are nude, the way prostitutes are nude, the 403 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: way statues are nude, the way lovers are nude. Any 404 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: man could now fully fantasize about Rosanne Quinn's nude body 405 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 3: on her disheveled bed end. 406 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: Quote. 407 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: You know, so that really says something right about how 408 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 3: rape and violence against women were thought of as kind 409 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 3: of titillation for a long time, and it's just sickening. 410 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: It is, and it's something that we will still continue 411 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 2: to push back against. And you know, I have to say, 412 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 2: you know, one of my all time favorite movies was 413 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: It's called The Accused, which is done in nineteen ninety 414 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: eight with Jodie Foster, and it's you know, similar but different. 415 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 2: But you know, Jodie Foster's character was you know, she 416 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: was at a bar, she was having a good time, 417 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: and you know, they tried to turn it around. You know, 418 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 2: she ended up getting gang raped in the movie, but 419 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: they tried to flip the switch and say, well it 420 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: was because she was dressed like this, you know, like 421 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 2: she was asking for it. And again, like I said, 422 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: we will we will always continue to push back against this. 423 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, moving on with the story here. One other thing 424 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: that the New York Papers publish is a sketch of 425 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: who they believe the perpetrator is given to them by 426 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: police based on accounts from people at the bar that night. 427 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: But the sketch was not of John Wayne Wilson, the 428 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: man we know who killed her, but instead of Gary Guest, 429 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: the friend. 430 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this was the guy who was there at 431 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 3: the bar that night with Wilson, who later bought him 432 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 3: that ticket out of town. 433 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, the guy that he confessed to. 434 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 2: Right, he didn't believe his story, Yeah exactly. 435 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: So Gary Guest, as you can imagine, sees this in 436 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: the newspaper and is terrified, right right, So he's obviously 437 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: worried that he's going to get implicated in Roseanne's murder. 438 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: So the first thing he does is go straight to 439 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: the police. He tells them that Wilson actually is the 440 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: one who confessed to the crime and went home with 441 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: her that night. 442 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 3: Oh now, he tells him, right exactly. 443 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it could have been that that was the 444 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: first time he had seen that Roseanne was murdered. And 445 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: he puts two and two together, but I'm not sure. 446 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 3: Finally believes them. Maybe yeah, yeah. 447 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: Either way. He gives them Wilson's location in exchange for 448 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: your immunity. So the NYPD then flies to Indiana with 449 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 1: the goal of arresting John Wayne Wilson for the murder 450 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: of Roseanne Quinn. And we'll talk about what happened next 451 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: after we take another quick break. 452 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: So having been alerted by his friend Gary, Guest then 453 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: flew to Indiana, where they promptly arrested Wilson at his 454 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 3: mother's home. He is then incarcerated at the Manhattan Detention Complex, 455 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 3: which is also famously known as the Tombs. From there, 456 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 3: he is sent to Bellevue Hospital Center for testing, and 457 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 3: the reason he was sent there is because his lawyer 458 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,399 Speaker 3: wanted to see if he had suffered brain damage as 459 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 3: a child in order to support an insanity defense. I'm sorry, 460 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: it just baffles me to even say those words. 461 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 2: You hear about the insanity defense every now and then, 462 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 2: and you definitely hear about it in movies, right, But 463 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 2: how common is it really? 464 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it feels like we hear about it a lot, right. 465 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: It feels like anytime there's one of these murders motivated 466 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: by anger, that the defense lawyer's default to this insanity 467 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: defense plea. But according to the numbers anyway, it's actually 468 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: not that common. In fact, only about one percent of 469 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: all felony cases in the US involve the use of 470 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: the insanity defense, and it's very rarely successful. So the 471 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: thing to remember here is that the so called insanity 472 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: defense is just a legal concept. It's not like a 473 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: medical concept, right, So you won't find doctors or psychiatrists 474 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: like using it in their office. So it's really just 475 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: based on the idea that at the time of the crime, 476 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: the defendant was experiencing quote severe mental illness like temporarily 477 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: and is therefore incapable of understanding the difference between right 478 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: and wrong, and because of this there of course not 479 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: accountable for the crime. But just having a mental disorder 480 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: is not enough to make someone not accountable for a crime, 481 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: at least so you would think, and most logical people 482 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: would think that. At any rate, it's really like hard 483 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: to determine what legal insanity is, and it's even harder 484 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: to defend it in court. So even though you do 485 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: sometimes kind of hear about it, it's really only in 486 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: high profile cases kind of as a hail Mary, right, 487 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: Like it's almost impossible. 488 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 3: To back right, like a last ditch effort. 489 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: Right. Well, so in this case, did it work. 490 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: No, it definitely did not work. You know, there was 491 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: really no chance for it really to even be investigated 492 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: or attempted. So shortly after his visit to Bellevue, Wilson 493 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: got into an argument with a guard at the tombs, 494 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: and that guard mockingly encouraged Wilson to kill himself and 495 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 1: he even tossed him some bed sheets into his chamber. 496 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: Wow. 497 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: And in fact, Wilson did kill himself. He hanged himself 498 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: in his cell using those very sheets. 499 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: Whoa, I mean, so that really is the end of 500 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: the case, you know, with him committing suicide. I mean, 501 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: that's that's heavy. 502 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of it, right. 503 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 3: Gosh, it makes me think about her family, like do 504 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: they feel like they got any justice or like you 505 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 3: wonder if they feel like they were robbed of something 506 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 3: because they have no reason and don't know why he 507 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: did what he did right, Yeah, yeah, maybe? 508 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean I sometimes wonder that in 509 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: cases where the perpetrator gets killed before they're able to 510 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: stand trial. It's not unheard of, and it's definitely complex, 511 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: but you know, at least they are pretty sure, pretty 512 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: confident that he did it right, Like they have Roseanne's body, 513 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: they know who did it. I mean, that's a lot 514 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: of things that a lot of people don't get a 515 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: lot of families don't even get that much. 516 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: So definitely very true, Trevor. 517 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely a piece of closure. For sure. So 518 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 3: you know, Roseanne Quinn is eventually buried in Saint Mary's Cemetery, 519 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 3: just a mile away from her family's home in New Jersey. 520 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 3: So three years later, the novel that we've been talking 521 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 3: about and the movie we've been talking about, Looking for 522 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: Mister Goodbar ends up getting published as a novel casting 523 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 3: its main character as a self destructive young woman who 524 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: seeks men that would harm her. And then five years 525 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: later is when the movie is made Diane Keaton, and 526 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: when Roger Ebert reviewed the movie, he called it a 527 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 3: quote cautionary lesson that promiscuous young women who frequent pickup 528 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 3: bars and go home with strangers are likely to get 529 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 3: into trouble end quote. 530 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I read that sometimes wondering if he was 531 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: being kind of sarcastic or being literal right in either case. 532 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: The media took that message very literally, and they really 533 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: drive that home, especially after the movie comes out, so 534 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: they focus on the fact that she would come home 535 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: with men late at night who would stay over. There 536 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: was even one neighbor who told a reporter that there 537 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: was a night that Roseanne and a man she brought 538 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,719 Speaker 1: home got into a fight and that they had to 539 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: go intervene in the fight, and when they did, they 540 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: found Roseanne sobbing with two black eyes as though she 541 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: had been beaten. Right, So it seems like everybody's painting 542 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: Roseanne as somebody who's getting into trouble unnecessarily. 543 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: Right, painting her as like a charlatan. 544 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: Right. 545 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 3: It is good though that that neighbor was there during 546 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: that particular incident to help Roseanne out, But we could 547 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 3: definitely do without all the slutshaming that was going on, right, 548 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 3: I mean, hello, yeah, there, of course there is a 549 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 3: risk to bringing someone that you don't know very well 550 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 3: to your home, absolutely no doubt about it. But it 551 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 3: does not mean that you, in any way, shape or form, 552 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 3: deserve violence or harm full stop. 553 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I mean you can dress, you can 554 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 2: have as much sex as you want. You can, you know, 555 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 2: have whoever you want come into your home. I mean 556 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: that is your right, that is your choice, you know, 557 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 2: but it does not give anybody the right to be 558 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: killed or raped because of nope, their lifestyle that they're living. Again, 559 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: she was, you know, an independent woman who has an 560 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: amazing job. We can go on and on, right, like 561 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: people loved her. 562 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean all that said, I think it's not 563 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: surprising to me that, you know, tabloid papers in the 564 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and you know, moving book adaptations in the 565 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies would take this kind of approach to this story. 566 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's just a different time. I mean, obviously 567 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: you're all correct this was not okay and that you know, 568 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: there are realities to this that should have been better represented. 569 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: But you know, I think since then, there's been a 570 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: lot of work done and you know, and sometimes we 571 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: need bad representations, you know, we need misrepresentations to know 572 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: that that was wrong and we're going to do it 573 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: better next time. Yeah, yeah, sure, so we can work 574 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: on this as a society and like, you know, do better. 575 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: And you know, I hate to say that, like this 576 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: was an example to be made of some sort, but 577 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: it was just like something that I think a lot 578 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: of feminist scholars would look back on and be like, 579 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, this was a crucial point and hiss for 580 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: you because we learned what not to do. 581 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, you know. 582 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: To piggyback on that, Trevor, I actually found a Slate 583 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 3: article that talks, you know, about that time and like 584 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: you said, like I think we've come a long way 585 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 3: in our society today, but that was a different time 586 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: back then. And this particular Slate article it points out 587 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 3: that quote much of the public discussion centered on Quinn's 588 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 3: private life. Wilson wasn't the first man she'd brought home. 589 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 3: Neighbors had heard fighting in her apartment before. Was this 590 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 3: rough sex gone wrong? Was she suicidal? Had she wanted 591 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 3: all the sex in the world with no consequences? Was 592 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 3: she what Gloria steinem was going to the barricades for? 593 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 3: End quote, And it goes on to say in that 594 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 3: same article, quote, the reason Rosanne Quinn's death terrified people 595 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 3: wasn't that she was a freak or a hippie. It 596 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: was that she was steadily employed, modestly dressed, well liked. 597 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 3: She was normal, but she was a new normal one 598 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 3: that decades later, we're still trying to deny or scare away. 599 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 3: End quote. 600 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we could say that she was ahead 601 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: of her time, right, that people they just weren't ready 602 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: for her. And again, I mean it's absolutely not over. 603 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 3: You know, any case that we choose to do on 604 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: facing evil, Eva and I and now Trevor, we're always 605 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 3: looking for that Emua, right, like that what that theme 606 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 3: is throughout the entire episode, like why are we telling 607 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 3: this story? And I really believe that we're telling Roseanne 608 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 3: Quinn's story because we need to flip the script right. 609 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 3: She was vilified as a victim just because of the 610 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 3: way she dressed, who she slept with, being by herself, 611 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 3: you know, being an independent young woman. And we are 612 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 3: here to tell you that it doesn't matter how you dress, 613 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 3: what under you identify as, where you are in your life, 614 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 3: if you like having sex, if you don't, if you're asexual, 615 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 3: doesn't matter. You do not deserve to be harmed. You 616 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 3: don't deserve violence. You do not deserve to be murdered. 617 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 3: And I want to highlight some great things about who 618 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 3: Roseanne Quinn was as a human being before she was 619 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 3: a victim. So just a few facts, little few nuggets 620 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 3: to know about Roseanne. She suffered from polio as a child, 621 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 3: and she walked with a slight limp, but she never 622 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 3: let that bother her. She enjoyed going on ski trips. 623 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 3: She was very dedicated to her work and to the 624 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 3: children that she got to teach American Sign language too. 625 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 3: She often brought breakfast in for her students because they 626 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 3: didn't have time to eat at home because they were 627 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 3: catching the school bus. And of course Rosanne probably wasn't 628 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 3: a saint, but but I'm sorry, no one is, and 629 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 3: I'm sure she was a very complex person, but she 630 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 3: above all deserved to live and she is way more 631 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: than her victimhood. 632 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 2: Or the way that she died. Amen to that, Rasha, Amen, 633 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: absolutely absolutely, you know, and again I can just add 634 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: in there she was truly ahead of her time. You know. 635 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 2: She was, like we've said in so many cases, she 636 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: was living out loud, and she was doing all the 637 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: things that she loved to do, and the way that 638 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 2: her life was taken is just tragic. 639 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: You know. 640 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 2: And we have to remember that gender based violence is 641 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 2: a real thing, and it's the system that perpetuates this 642 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 2: harm that we need to challenge every single day, and 643 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: not the people who find themselves victims of these crimes, 644 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:09,879 Speaker 2: but the people who are actually doing the crimes. And 645 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 2: that brings us to this week's EMUA. 646 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 3: We'd like to dedicate this week's final message of hope 647 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: and healing to Roseanne Quinn and to all of the 648 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 3: other women who have been targets of violence. 649 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: And so with that we will keep working to point 650 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 2: out the ways that our unconscious bias feeds a harmful system. 651 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 2: And for you out there who are soldiering through your 652 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 2: days in a world that would box you in, that 653 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 2: would label you and harm you, we see you, we 654 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 2: support you, and we are right there with you. Onward 655 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 2: and upward. Emua emua. Well, that is our show for today, 656 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 2: and we'd love to hear what you thought about today 657 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: discussion and if there is a case that you would 658 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 2: like us to. 659 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 3: Cover, find us on social media or email us at 660 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 3: Facingevil pod at tenderfoot dot tv. And one request, if 661 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 3: you haven't already, please find us on iTunes and give 662 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 3: us a review in good rating. If you like what 663 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: we do, your support is always cherished. 664 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 2: Until next time. 665 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:30,759 Speaker 3: Aloha. 666 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 667 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia pacquerero In Avet Gentile, 668 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf 669 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 670 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: Albright and Payne Lindsay, our executive producers on behalf of 671 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. 672 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 673 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 674 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the 675 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 676 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: favorite shows.