1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hey, 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: this is Danish Swartz, the host of Noble Blood. If 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: you want to support the show, we are on Patreon 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: at patreon dot com slash Noble Blood Tales. I'm also 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: on Instagram with a Noble Blood account, where I sometimes 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: post random memes and things that I make or find. 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: That's also Noble Blood Tales. But as always, the best 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: support for the show is just that you keep listening, unless, 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: of course, you want to pre order my book Immortality, 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: a Love Story, in which case that is the best 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: support you could possibly be doing. So thank you so 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: much for listening, and let's dive in. The year was 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: seventeen eighty four and Thomas Jefferson had a problem. He 15 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: was a Francophile. He was just about to set out 16 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: for France as an ambassador from the new country of America. 17 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: But at this particular moment in time, the French were 18 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: making him a little annoyed. Well, one Frenchman in particular, 19 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: George Louis Leclerc, the Comte de Baifont, arguably the most 20 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: famous natural historian in the world. At this time, Buffon 21 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: was the author of an internationally best selling thirty six 22 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: volume book called the hispan Necral, or Natural History, in 23 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: which he gave meticulous evidence for the theory of quote degeneracy. 24 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: This was a popular European theory at the time, which 25 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: claimed that all flora and fauna were weaker and smaller 26 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: in the New World as compared to the Old World, 27 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: i e. Europe. The plants and animals of America were 28 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: shriveled little things compared to the plants and animals in Europe. 29 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: So the theory went, the birds of America could not 30 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: croak out a note compared to the marvelous European songbirds, 31 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: the dogs of America could only whimper compared to the 32 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: great barking hounds of the continent. And the people well, 33 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: According to this theory, the native Americans fared no better 34 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: than the native fauna and flora. Jefferson ruminated on Buffon's 35 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: work with increasing outrage. The chapter on quadrupeds for legged 36 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: beasts was especially egregious. How could befall claim that the 37 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: American land mammal was inferior, that man had never even 38 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: left Europe? Jefferson envisioned his beloved home state, Virginia, which 39 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: was no longer a colony, finally part of a new 40 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: independent nation. When he looked out at the grounds of 41 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: his estate at Monticello, he saw rolling, fertile fields tended 42 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: to buy people he enslaved, but lands that were capable 43 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: of growing tobacco, wheat, and a whole host of crops. 44 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: He saw the mountain on whose peak he had built 45 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: his plantation. He remembered the lush, verdant Piedmont forests of 46 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: his youth, the smell of autumn crisp through the trees, 47 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: the hoofprints of deer just visible on the forest floor. 48 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: He recalled the spry doze and magnificent stags leaping away 49 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: in the thicket. If anything, Jefferson thought the plants and 50 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: animals and people were bigger in America, better in America. 51 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: He had written as much painstakingly in his just published 52 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: book Notes on the State of Virginia. He believed the 53 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: giant mastodon was still roaming the country somewhere, the most sublime, 54 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: the most colossal quadruped of all. Besides, hadn't Benjamin Franklin 55 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: already shown the French that Americans were taller on his 56 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: trip to the continent. Hadn't Alexander Hamilton refuted the degeneracy 57 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: concept in his Federalist papers. Hadn't Jefferson and James Madison 58 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: corresponded on the matter sufficient to finally set it to rest. 59 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:40,119 Speaker 1: How dare the French not? We can't No, The degeneracy 60 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: libel could not stand. Jefferson needed to do something. He 61 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: picked up his quill to write John Sullivan, Governor of 62 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, another part of America dnse with forest and 63 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: the Great White Mountains. Jefferson needed to bring something to 64 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: the continent that would change the Frenchman's mind for good. 65 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: He wasn't just acting for his own sake. He was 66 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: acting on behalf of the reputation of the new world, 67 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: of the brand new United States of America, so young 68 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: that its articles of Confederation were still being tested in practice. 69 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: For the good of the Union, Thomas Jefferson, founding father, 70 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: former governor of Virginia, future president, needed to ship something 71 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: enormous across the Atlantic Ocean. As the decade of the 72 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: seventeen eighties neared its close. A dog wouldn't do, nor 73 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: a squirrel, nor a deer. He needed to show Comte 74 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: de Baifant the biggest four legged American animal that he 75 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: could readily find. He dipped his quill into a pot 76 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: of ink and leaned over his parchment. What he needed, 77 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: he wrote to New Hampshire, was a mood. I'm Dani 78 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: Schwartz and this is noble blood. Adult men comparing bodies, 79 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: fighting over whose is bigger, and getting worked up over 80 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: contests of size. If the fight over the theory of 81 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: degeneracy sounds a bit like an eighteenth century men's locker 82 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: room to you, well it basically was. But who were 83 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: the men doing the measurements in the metaphorical locker room? 84 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: The comb tip of fone was born George Louis le 85 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: Cleric in seventeen o seven. He came of age in 86 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: France after the death of Louis as the Age of 87 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: Enlightenment was beginning to flourish after an evidently miserable childhood, 88 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: before made a name for himself at the Royal Academy 89 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: of Sciences by writing papers on the mathematics of probability, 90 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: especially as it applied to gambling. For most of his 91 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: early life, there's little evidence of any actual interest in 92 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: nature or cataloging of natural history. The closest thing to 93 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: anthropology we might see was this sweet little note from 94 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: his travels as a young man. Quote women are quite beautiful, 95 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: and except for the old ones, I don't remember having 96 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: seen any that were ugly unquote A little anthropologist in training. 97 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: But all that changed when the French Navy needed a 98 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: place to research would for their ships, they chose the 99 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: forests around Beffon's estate, and it was then that Buffon 100 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: turned his attention to the natural world. For the next decade, 101 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: he devoted himself with singular zeal, to cataloging, recording, and 102 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: measuring the exact features of every species he could find. 103 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: He wanted to write no less than quote the exact 104 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: description and the true history of each thing end quote 105 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: on the planet, and in seventeen forty nine, the first 106 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: volume of his natural history was published. It was a sensation, 107 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: a genuine eighteenth century best seller, one of the first 108 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: ever popular science books. It's sold out in six weeks 109 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: and was translated into English and reviewed by newspapers all 110 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: over the American colonies. Smart trendy readers throughout Europe and 111 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: America were devouring it and its details about the theory 112 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: of degeneracy in the New World, essentially, wrote Buffon, nature 113 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: in America is functioning quote upon a smaller scale. Buffone 114 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: was not the first European thinker to propose the idea 115 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: of degeneracy in America, but he was the most respected, 116 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: the most widely read. He provided the most evidence and 117 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: the clearest reason. Because the climate in America is colder 118 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: and wetter, life grows weaker and diminished. His arguments extended 119 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: to the people of the New World to His statements 120 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: about Native American populations were especially intensely callous. He called 121 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: indigenous Americans quote a kind of weak automaton. Nature treated 122 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: them rather like a stepmother than a parent, by refusing 123 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: them the invigorating sentiment of love and the strong desire 124 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: of multiplying their species unquote. For the record, Befall's own 125 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: relationship with parental love was that he had not attended 126 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: his own father's second wedding after his mother's death. He 127 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: had sued his father for his inheritance and described his 128 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: feelings as that of quote the discontent of a l 129 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: born son caused by a father who was heartless unquote. 130 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: So if a lack of parental love renders a person 131 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: in firm. Well, that doesn't speak very well of him. 132 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: In all his comparison of species, Buffon never left Europe 133 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: and rarely went out into nature to collect any information himself. 134 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: That was actually common practice for natural historians of the time. 135 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: Instead of actually collecting data themselves, they relied on the 136 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: relay testimonies of others and on cabinets of curiosities collections 137 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: of natural and interesting objects. One of the collections Befone 138 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: relied on was actually the King's Buffon was like the geographer, 139 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: invented two centuries later in fiction by another French author 140 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: and Twine de Saint Experi in The Little Prince. In 141 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: that book, the geographer character says he quote doesn't go 142 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: out to scribe cities, rivers, mountains, seas, oceans and deserts. 143 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: A geographer is too important to go wandering about. He 144 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: never leaves his study, but he received the explorers there. 145 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: He questions them, and he writes down what they remember 146 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: end quote. Thomas Jefferson, for his part, had spent his 147 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: childhood in the woods of Virginia. Born in seventeen forty three, 148 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: he was thirty six years Buffons Jr. Like Buffon, he 149 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: studied law Unlike Buffon, he had an evident interest in nature, botany, 150 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: and scientific observation from the time he was very young. 151 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: Jefferson is obviously known to American history as a complicated figure. 152 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: He's the author of the Declaration of Independence, an eloquent 153 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: plea for man's fundamental freedom and equality, and yet he 154 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: owned a slave plantation, And as he was contemplating helping 155 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: to build a new independent American nation, he was deeply 156 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: affronted by Buffon's claims of American degeneracy. He wasn't the 157 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 1: only one. Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton's basically half 158 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: the guys in the musical Hamilton's We're defending America against 159 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: degeneracy theory at one time or another. Lee Allen de Gatkin, 160 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: whose research I am indebted to for this episode, rightly 161 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: note that these guys were bothering to think about some 162 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: Frenchman's theory quote in the midst of issues such as 163 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 1: the proposition to hold a constitutional convention, whether paper money 164 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: should be adopted, and what to do about an empty treasury. 165 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, just those little things. But that's to say 166 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: this project of defending American bigness and heartiness had the 167 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: valance of nationalism during a time when nationalism really mattered. 168 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: The Republic was newly one from the British and it 169 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,599 Speaker 1: needed to define its national character on the world stage 170 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 1: as one of strength. Of all of the founders, it 171 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: was Jefferson who worked most passionately to refute buffonse theory. 172 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: In his book Notes on the State of Virginia, published 173 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: in seventeen eighty five, Jefferson name check Buffon and his theory, 174 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: and then spent page after page defending America against it. 175 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: Jefferson included tables on quote a comparative view of the 176 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: quadrupeds of Europe and of America, which compare by weight 177 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: everything from the mammoth to the wolf, to the links, 178 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: to the otter to the shrew mouse. Jefferson catalogs the 179 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: number of species found only in Europe versus the number 180 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: of species found only in America. Rather hilariously, he includes 181 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: a whole page in which the American side of the 182 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: table is filled in and the European side is just blank. 183 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: He obsesses for a while about his belief that the mammoth, which, 184 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: remember Jefferson is positive, is still around somewhere. Should quote 185 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: have stifled in its birth, the opinion of a writer 186 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: most learned too of all others in the science of 187 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: animal history unquote, that is, it should have stifled the 188 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: opinion of Bouffon. Jefferson was also passionate to the point 189 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 1: of being over the top in his defense of Native 190 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: Americans against the claim of degeneracy. At one point, he 191 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: says that no orator in all of Europe, not even 192 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: Cicero ever gave a speech better than a Mingo chief 193 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: named Logan. But as you might expect when it comes 194 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: to Jefferson and race, his views were complicated. In the 195 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: same book, he makes sure to note that different races 196 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: have different physical and mental abilities. It's just not in 197 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: Jefferson's opinion, because of where they were born. In the end, 198 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: Jefferson wasn't satisfied with his buttle to Befall in his book. 199 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: He needed something physical, something bigger than words on a page. 200 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: He needed to get through to Befall. What he needed 201 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: was the biggest animal that could be procured, the beast 202 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: that would so impress Befall that the Frenchman would be 203 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: forced to publicly change his mind. That is why Jefferson 204 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: needed a moose if you were a correspondent of the 205 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: eminent Thomas Jefferson in the mid seventeen eighties, you were 206 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: almost certainly someone important George Washington or John Adams. Perhaps 207 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: in the seventeen eighties you might have been worried about 208 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: economic disputes with neighboring states. You probably would have worn 209 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: a double breasted waistcoat and skin tight riding breeches, and 210 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: a tall hat, maybe with a buckle for flair. And 211 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: you might have one day received from your eminent correspondent 212 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: a sixteen questioned survey on the habits and measurements of 213 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: the American moose. Do they make a loud rattling sound 214 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: when they run? Jefferson asked, what is their food? What 215 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: is the height? Its length from ear to ear, its 216 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: circumference were largest. You can almost imagine the Facebook post, 217 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: Hey friends, anybody know anything about a moose? One friend did, 218 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: John Sullivan, Governor of New Hampshire. The two men continued 219 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: to correspond on and off about the possibility of procuring 220 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: a moose, a correspondence that continued when Jefferson shipped off 221 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: to Paris as Ambassador to France. In Paris, Jefferson left 222 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: a dinner with Baffon, with the distinct impression that showing 223 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: Befall a giant moose would change the Frenchman's mind about 224 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: American degeneracy once and for all. He wrote more urgently 225 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: to Sullivan in New Hampshire, saying that the quote skin, skeletons, 226 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: and horse unquote of moose would be quote more precious 227 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: than you can imagine unquote. In fact, by this time, 228 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: Buffon had already issued a fifth supplement of his natural 229 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: History that was a gentle walking back. While American degeneracy 230 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: had originally extended to the entire American continent, the fifth 231 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: edition subtly dropped the references to North America. It's not 232 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: clear whether Jefferson saw or registered this change. If he did, 233 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: he surely didn't think it was enough. In the meantime, 234 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: back in New Hampshire, John Sullivan decided to deliver. In 235 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: mid March, very much still winter in New England, he 236 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: dispatched a twenty man team to kill a seven foot 237 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: tall moose Vermont as a favor to Thomas Jefferson. It's 238 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: at this point in the story that it might be 239 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: time to introduce the third player in our metaphorical locker 240 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: room an unwitting player to be sure the moose himself. 241 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: The word moose comes from the Algonquin language. The Algonquin 242 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: root word refers to stripping off, probably of bark, the 243 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: way a moose's antlers might. Elizabeth Bishop's famous poem The 244 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: Moose describes an animal quote that stands there looms rather 245 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: towering high as a church. Unquote. The adult male moose 246 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: averages six ft tall each year in the testosterone surge 247 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 1: before breeding season. It's antlers grow in a coat of 248 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: velvet and then harden before shedding. And yes, to continue 249 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: our prevailing anatomical metaphor, one wild life biologist for National 250 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: Geographic says, quote, the guy who has the biggest set 251 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: of antlers and can show them off to potential girl 252 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: friends will be the fortunate individual who does the breeding. Unquote. 253 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: Those antlers alone can weigh sixty pounds, and the moose 254 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: can weigh fourteen hundred pounds. That's the sheer size of 255 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: the thing that Sullivan's men spent the next two weeks 256 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: hauling twenty miles through the snow back to New Hampshire. 257 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: Sullivan stepped outside nose reddening in the cold, to find 258 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: not the noble creature that Thomas Jefferson had asked for, 259 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: but a putrefying carcass in very rough shape. Nevertheless, he 260 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: was committed to his task, so the men, wanting arrest 261 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: and a warm hearth at this point, instead set to 262 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: the hard work separating flesh from bone, preserving as much 263 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: of the moose as they could against further degradation, and 264 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: attempting to keep the hoofs and antlers attached. The smell 265 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: of dead moose filled their nostrils as they worked, but 266 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: as they continued, they reached an uneasy conclusion. This moose 267 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: and its antlers would not be making it together across 268 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: the Atlantic. Jefferson's moose could only come in pieces. The 269 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: magnificent specimen that Jefferson requested was not to be Like 270 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: a kid. Desperate not to fail the assignment, Sullivan also 271 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: decided to send along a few other antlers he had 272 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: lying around. This was New Hampshire, after all, and he 273 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: instructed Jefferson that he could attach them to the carcass 274 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: at will. By this time, fulfilling Jefferson's obsessive requests for 275 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: a moose had become more trouble than Sullivan had signed 276 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: up for this was a guy who had once charged 277 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: at Hessian's soldiers during the Revolutionary War with a pistol 278 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: in each hand, and now he was stuck borrowing forty 279 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: five pounds sterling from his brother to deal with Thomas 280 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: Jefferson's moose carcass. He must have been very happy to 281 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: put the moose and the assorted antlers on a ship 282 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: that sets sail from Portsmouth, New Hampshire in early May, 283 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: but the poor moose got left behind on that ship 284 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: for reasons unknown, possibly that chip's captain got a whiff 285 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: of the giant, smelly moose skin and decided he could 286 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: do a transatlantic voyage without it. For five months, the 287 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: carcass sat until finally it caught her ride and arrived 288 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: in Half the Grace France in the final days of September. 289 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: We can only imagine Jefferson's ecstasy at the arrival of 290 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: the ship, and then his disappointment at the sorry state 291 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: of its cargo. Nonetheless, he immediately wrote Buffon on October 292 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: one seven. He told the Frenchman that he had the 293 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: bones and skin of a moose. He did make some apologies. 294 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,719 Speaker 1: He had envisioned that the skin would come stuffed and 295 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: sewn back together like a giant bild the bear. He'd 296 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: imagined something immediately impressive. Instead, Jefferson acknowledged this moose had 297 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: been sent quote with the hair on, but a great 298 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: deal of it has come off, and the rest is 299 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: ready to drop off unquote, more than anything. Jefferson implored 300 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: Buffon's understanding when it came to matters of size. The 301 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: antlers that finally made it across the Atlantic with the 302 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: moose skin and bones were those assorted antlers of other 303 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: species that the governor had included, and Jefferson tried his 304 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: best to justify them, insisting, quote, the horns of the 305 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: elk are remarkably small. I have certainly seen of them 306 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: which would have weighed five or six times as much. 307 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: The horns of the deer which accompany these spoils are 308 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: not of the fifth or sixth part of the weight 309 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: of some that I have seen. I therefore beg of 310 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: you not to consider those now sent as furnishing a 311 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: specimen of their ordinary size unquote shrinkage. You can almost 312 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,640 Speaker 1: hear him saying he signed the letter to Buffon, your 313 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: most obedient and most humble servant, and I will say 314 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: it is hard reading these letters not to see how 315 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: Lin Manuel Miranda made Jefferson the buffoonish frenchman oft in Paris. 316 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: In Hamilton's, of course, it was Buffon who Jefferson was 317 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: hoping to make the buffoon, at least when it came 318 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: to the degeneracy theory. Jefferson viewed Buffon as a true scientist, 319 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: an intelligent man who had made a mistake and would 320 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: surely be swayed by the evidence set before him. Jefferson 321 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: sent the letter off with giddy anticipation. Thomas Jefferson had 322 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: gotten his moose, and soon he would get Baffall. To 323 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: recount when the moose carcass landed in France, Jefferson was 324 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: a relatively young man of forty four, but Befall, at 325 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: this point was eighty years old and sick. It was 326 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: his assistant who received the moose. In Jefferson's imagination, the 327 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: assistant would have been dumb struck. Sir. The assistant would 328 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: say to Baffall, you've been all wrong, all wrong. The 329 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: animals in this new world are larger than the old world. 330 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: Baffall would gaze upon the moose bones with shock and awe. 331 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: He would immediately sit up and change course, frantically, writing 332 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: it would be a defining moment in his scientific career. 333 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: But that's not what happened. Buffon may eight indeed have 334 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: seen the moose. Maybe he really did plan, as Jefferson believed, 335 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: he would to officially renounce the theory of degeneracy once 336 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 1: and for all in his next volume of the Natural History, 337 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: But Buffon died six months later before publishing another word 338 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: on the subject. In Jacques Rogers four hundred plus page 339 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: biography of BeFAN, the incident with Jefferson's moose is mentioned 340 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: in exactly one paragraph, where it gets half a sentence. 341 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: The Natural History remained as it was, with no moose 342 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: related corrections. Jefferson went on to become the third President 343 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: of the United States fourteen years later. He would send 344 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: Lewis and Clark to the West with a long list 345 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: of natural measurements for them to obtain. He would collect 346 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: a grand cabinet of curiosities at Mounticello and have a 347 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: hall hung with the head and antlers of a moose, 348 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: a deer, a buffalo, and supposedly a mammoth. He never 349 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: gave up on his quest to prove the massiveness of 350 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: animals in the New World. In se he presented to 351 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: the American Philosophical Society a collection of giant bones from 352 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: a new species he called the Megalonyx, which turned out 353 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: to be the bones of the extinct giant sloth. And 354 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: as to the whole debate over which animal from which 355 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: quote world is bigger and therefore better, I've made allusions 356 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: here to the men's locker room measuring contest character of 357 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: it all. But it was a debate with real consequences, 358 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: not so much the answer to the question of size, 359 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: but the framing of the question itself. The very concept 360 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: that bigger is better Undergird's manifest destiny, the sense of 361 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: largeness that America offered to conquerors, the possibility of more 362 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: when Europe had already been claimed bigger as better undergirds 363 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: the subjugation of women to men over centuries applied to 364 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: Native American populations. It is dehumanization in either direction, the strong, 365 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: noble savage or the weak, degraded man. It's presented today 366 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: in political wars between large and small states in the 367 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: United States, between large and small states of the world. 368 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: But what if, of course, bigger is not necessarily better, 369 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: even if we could prove that life grew bigger in 370 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 1: some places than others, does a value judgment need to 371 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: be attached? Might Darwin himself, born a decade after the 372 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: Comte de Baifant, argue that smallness can be adaptive, useful 373 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 1: good at base? The reason why the fight over degenerously 374 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: mattered to these eighteenth century men was there intrinsic feeling 375 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: that bigger is better. So I want to leave you 376 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: and this episode with a thought, what if it's simply not. 377 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: That's the story of Thomas Jefferson and America in a 378 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: battle of size against the Comte de Bifont and Europe. 379 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: But stick around after a brief sponsor break to hear 380 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: what happened to Befon's corps. The funeral of the Comte 381 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: de Beifont was a grand affair. This was the author 382 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: of the best selling natural history, The Visionary and Poetic 383 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: Epics of Nature and the First Geological History of the World, 384 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: a book that was read by the likes of Catherine 385 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: the Great. On April eighteenth, seventeen eighty eight, twenty thousand 386 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: mourners watched as fourteen horses carried Buffon's funeral processions down 387 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: the street of San Menard, France, and they listened to 388 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: three dozen choir boys singing songs of mourning. They may 389 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: not have known that the body they were mourning had 390 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: been opened one day earlier after Buffon's death. Buffon himself 391 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: had given the instructions before he died. His chest cavity 392 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: was cut and his heart removed from his body, and 393 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: then given to his friend, Fouget de Saint Fon, a 394 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: geologist and volcanist. Buffon's skull was opened with a saw. 395 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 1: The instinct for comparative measurement did not abandon those who 396 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: dealt with Buffon's corpse. The brain was recorded as a 397 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: quote slightly larger size than that of ordinary brains unquote. 398 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: So the heartless body of the naturalist was mourned with 399 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: fanfare on the way to its interment in Monbar. It 400 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: did not stay interred during the French Revolution, which began 401 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: just one year after Buffon's death, a revolution that would 402 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: claim the life of his son at the guillotine. Buffon's 403 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 1: tomb was broken into the lead over the coffin was 404 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: stolen to make bullets, and his body was desecrated. Legend 405 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: has it that only his Sarah bellum was left, and 406 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: that to this very day, allegedly in the base of 407 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: a statue of Buffon commissioned by Louis the sixteenth, housed 408 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: in the Museum of Natural History in Paris, a little 409 00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: piece of the naturalist's brain remains. Noble Blood is a 410 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from 411 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey. Noble Blood is hosted by me Danishwartz. Additional 412 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: writing and researching done by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Miura Hayward, 413 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: Courtney Sunder and Laurie Goodman. The show is produced by 414 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: rema Il Kali, with supervising producer Josh Thaine and executive 415 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more 416 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, 417 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.