Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a fried egg
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg, Frida egg
Speaker 2: Egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm.
Speaker 1: About ready to run off the Welcome back to the
Speaker 1: fridayg Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today we're speaking
Speaker 1: with the golf architect Trevor Dormer. Trev has shaped features
Speaker 1: for golf architects like Bill Corr, Gil Hansen, Rod Whitman,
Speaker 1: and right now he's working on his first US solo project,
Speaker 1: a redesign of Old Dane Golf Club in northern Nebraska. Now,
Speaker 1: the big recent development in Trev's career is that he
Speaker 1: has joined King Collins Golf Course Design as a partner.
Speaker 1: This is the firm founded by Tad King and Rob Collins.
Speaker 1: It's behind courses like Sweeten's, cove Landman and the new
Speaker 1: reversible Crossroads layout at Palmetto Bluff. We've had Rob Collins
Speaker 1: on the podcast a number of times. Certainly we consider
Speaker 1: his firm to be one of the most interesting and
Speaker 1: dynamic in the business and the fact that it's now
Speaker 1: known as King Colin's Dormer qualifies as major news in
Speaker 1: the world of golf course design. So what better time
Speaker 1: to bring Trev on the podcast to talk about his
Speaker 1: new partnership and to get a sense of his approach
Speaker 1: to golf architecture. So we're going to get into that
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Speaker 1: all one word. All right, let's get to my interview
Speaker 1: with Trevor Dohrmer. Trevor. First of all, I've seen you
Speaker 1: refer to yourself as Trevor from time to time. Is
Speaker 1: it Trevor? Is it Trevor?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's whatever anybody wants to call me. Trev's Trep's
Speaker 2: quick and easy and short. So I always just say Trevor.
Speaker 2: I introduced myself as Trevor. But yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 2: It's no biggie.
Speaker 1: So you take a laid back approach to it. Well,
Speaker 1: in that sense, Trevor would be the appropriate one, because
Speaker 1: that's maybe the most laid back way to say Trevor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why don't we start with the big news here, and
Speaker 1: that's that you've joined King Collins Golf Course Design or
Speaker 1: or should I say the firm formerly known as King
Speaker 1: Collins now known as King Collins Dormer. How did this
Speaker 1: partnership come about?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's it's kind of been in the
Speaker 2: works for you know, about a year. You know, Rob
Speaker 2: and Tad have been getting pretty busy over the long term,
Speaker 2: and you know, I thought about it for you know,
Speaker 2: a good six months because obviously, you know, Rob and
Speaker 2: Tad are my friends first and foremost. I've been friends
Speaker 2: with Rob since you know, two thousand and seven, before
Speaker 2: Sweeten's Cove, before I ended up, you know, working with
Speaker 2: you know, with Bill and Ben, and when we were
Speaker 2: in our infancy, in our in our careers, and you know,
Speaker 2: we've always just kind of been friends. And so I
Speaker 2: was nervous when they asked me if I wanted to
Speaker 2: become a partner, and I just said, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: I value our friendships first and foremost, because once you
Speaker 2: get into business with your friends, it can you know,
Speaker 2: I had to think about that because it's not worth
Speaker 2: losing friends over business. But then, you know, I really
Speaker 2: thought about it, and we we all have such easy going,
Speaker 2: you know, laid back in styles that that we're we're
Speaker 2: more conscious about how we are as you know, how
Speaker 2: we interact with each other. Then, you know, and and
Speaker 2: I know their their hearts and and you know, we're
Speaker 2: always it's so I you know, I thought about it
Speaker 2: for quite a while, and and we all just thought
Speaker 2: thought about it for quite a while just to make
Speaker 2: sure that it was going to be good. And yeah,
Speaker 2: so you know, it's it's it's going to be a
Speaker 2: big transition process because you know, I'm still with with
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben and I you know, and I have
Speaker 2: this project here in Nebraska, the Old Dane, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, they're my priority. I said that to Rob
Speaker 2: and Tad, you know, before we decided to kind of
Speaker 2: get together with King Colin's Dormer, that you know, I
Speaker 2: got to make sure that you know, Bill and Ben
Speaker 2: are priority focus and that the project that I'm helping
Speaker 2: them within the Bahamas torch Key is is the needs
Speaker 2: are being taken care of. And and then also it
Speaker 2: kind of ran into timelines don't always work out, but
Speaker 2: it ran into you know, my own solo project here
Speaker 2: at the Old Danes. So you know, Bill and Ben
Speaker 2: are so gracious and they know that we're all trying
Speaker 2: to get out on our own and when we have
Speaker 2: opportunities that we need to take them. So so you know,
Speaker 2: right now it's I've got a little bit of time
Speaker 2: to where I can help with you know, start the
Speaker 2: dirt move here and in Nebraska. And then you know,
Speaker 2: we still got a really good team in in in
Speaker 2: torch Key. They're the same guys from Saint Lucia, So
Speaker 2: we have full confidence in those guys to where I
Speaker 2: can you know, get away to take care of some
Speaker 2: of this stuff here. So so you know that that's
Speaker 2: kind of a long winded version, but you know, Rob,
Speaker 2: Tad and I have always been good friends. I've been huge,
Speaker 2: huge fans of theirs everything they've been doing, and and
Speaker 2: I've helped them out on certain projects when when I
Speaker 2: when I could get out and see them and they're
Speaker 2: they're just so fun to work with, and so you know,
Speaker 2: they let everybody just kind of go and do their
Speaker 2: do their thing and and give them something you know
Speaker 2: that they don't they don't put any they don't put
Speaker 2: any parameters on you. So you know, it's just a
Speaker 2: it's just a really good fit there and and so
Speaker 2: that's that's kind of how it how it started. Now
Speaker 2: things are getting busy and you know, they're getting a
Speaker 2: lot of inquiries about you know, new projects and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, just to like it always has been. But
Speaker 2: we just felt it was probably a good time to
Speaker 2: you know, without doing side notes to these these clients. Oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, we have another partner coming on. We
Speaker 2: just thought we we got to kind of make this
Speaker 2: up you know, public. But but it's a it's going
Speaker 2: to be a long transition before I'm totally you know
Speaker 2: on with with with them as as and right now
Speaker 2: I'm helping them with you know, pre planning stuff and
Speaker 2: just things that I'm I'm able to kind of help
Speaker 2: with and they're involving me with you know, all the
Speaker 2: all of that side so right, but yeah, it's good.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, one one reason for the length of
Speaker 1: the transition is that, as you've mentioned, you're very busy.
Speaker 1: You're working on your solo project at Old Dane in Nebraska,
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about in a minute, as well as
Speaker 1: some projects with Corn Crenshaw, with whom you've worked for
Speaker 1: quite a while. You mentioned Cabot Saint Lucia. That was
Speaker 1: a project that wrapped up I believe last year or
Speaker 1: two years ago. The course is open now Point Hardy
Speaker 1: Golf Club and that's out in the Caribbean, and and
Speaker 1: now Corn Crenshaw also have one going in the Bahamas
Speaker 1: at torch Key. And so is your plan to continue
Speaker 1: working with Corn Crenshaw for the foreseeable future on projects
Speaker 1: like this or after torch Key? Is that gonna wind
Speaker 1: down as your focus kind of turns to King Collins.
Speaker 2: Dormer, Yeah, I think it's you know, it's gonna it's
Speaker 2: gonna wind down as as as my focus. You know,
Speaker 2: if Bill and Ben ever need me to jump in
Speaker 2: and help out on anything, I've already let Tad and
Speaker 2: Rob know that I might have to break away if
Speaker 2: those guys need something for a short time.
Speaker 1: Or great or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's it's a it's a it's
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's pretty special if you know those guys,
Speaker 2: you know, need help and I can, you know, have
Speaker 2: some time, you know, It's it's just been an absolute
Speaker 2: dream to work for Bill and Ben for the past
Speaker 2: ten years of my career. They've shaped a lot of
Speaker 2: my philosophy and and and and let me grow in
Speaker 2: my career. And and you know, I owe everything pretty
Speaker 2: much to this date to them about you know, where
Speaker 2: where my path has been and gone. So you know,
Speaker 2: it's it was. It was a tough one, right, but
Speaker 2: you know it's you know, the thing that allows you,
Speaker 2: the thing that moving on with Rob and Tad or
Speaker 2: you know, I get a little bit more flexibility to
Speaker 2: be home with my family. I spent the last majority
Speaker 2: of my career doing overseas stuff because I'm Canadian and
Speaker 2: I got a good passport.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, you you've worked in Japan, You've
Speaker 1: worked all over the place. You've been one of the
Speaker 1: world travelers of the Corn Crunshaw outfit as well as
Speaker 1: for other architects. You've been in Thailand, You've been, You've
Speaker 1: been everywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's been the vast majority of my twenty
Speaker 2: years doing this has been like I started, honestly when
Speaker 2: I was twenty two years old, was when I went
Speaker 2: to Russia. And I can't even believe it, Nicko. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I can't believe anybody hired me to go to you know,
Speaker 2: overseas and actually paid me money as a twenty two
Speaker 2: year old. You know, kid, right, but it's just how
Speaker 2: it is. I mean, you know, so right now, you know,
Speaker 2: I got two young boys, they're seven and nine, and
Speaker 2: they're they're just little savages and and you know they're
Speaker 2: becoming a little you know, my wife, you know, bless
Speaker 2: her soul, she's traveled around with me drug those kids,
Speaker 2: across continents and been with me for this whole time.
Speaker 2: Like she lived with me for three years and in
Speaker 2: Saint Lucia two years, in Thailand. She was jumping back
Speaker 2: and forth when we first had our son in Japan.
Speaker 2: I mean, she's she's she's wanting to settle down in
Speaker 2: our little town of Kimberly. And and same with the boys.
Speaker 2: They need they need to I always say, they need
Speaker 2: to go make those friends that they're going to go
Speaker 2: to jail with out of high school, you know. So
Speaker 2: so so that's kind of you know, life, life kind
Speaker 2: of creeps up on you, you know, and and that's
Speaker 2: and that's one of the benefits of you know, being
Speaker 2: able to be with Robin Tad is I'm going to
Speaker 2: be able to set some of my schedule and I
Speaker 2: have a vested interest in the company, so obviously I
Speaker 2: want to make sure I'm pulling my own weight. But
Speaker 2: you know, I think moving forward with our projects, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll have a little bit of a different role, you know,
Speaker 2: setting up you know, concepts with Rob and Tad and
Speaker 2: working on all aspects of these projects, dealing with clients,
Speaker 2: and then when we actually get to break down or
Speaker 2: break ground, you know, I want to be there to
Speaker 2: be able to set the tone to to kind of
Speaker 2: build some of the stuff and kind of work with
Speaker 2: the shapers and the construction professionals that we employ and
Speaker 2: and and give them a good foundation to work off of,
Speaker 2: and then be able to take off and go home
Speaker 2: and see my family. So it's going to be a
Speaker 2: lot of jumping back and forth rather than you know,
Speaker 2: digging my feed in and living in a place which
Speaker 2: I just can't do that anymore, which is fine. It's
Speaker 2: and and and it's it's good. So I'm excited to
Speaker 2: transition to some of the stuff. And and uh, yeah.
Speaker 1: What excites you about what Rob and Tad have been
Speaker 1: doing as King Collins golf course design before you came
Speaker 1: on board.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's pretty well known that these guys
Speaker 2: push some limits, you know, and that and that's the
Speaker 2: best part they're like, they're just so fun to work
Speaker 2: with and and I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing.
Speaker 2: You know, Rob, when when we build golf courses and
Speaker 2: when we build features in the dirt, I'm constantly thinking
Speaker 2: about how a ball is going to hit a feature
Speaker 2: and roll and get to a certain section of a green.
Speaker 2: It's pretty damn tough to know exactly how that's going
Speaker 2: to go unless you're doing it all the time, right,
Speaker 2: So we we we try to get it right and
Speaker 2: then obviously you san cap it and then it gets
Speaker 2: a little bit better. Some guys kick around basketballs and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. We've never done that. It's all kind
Speaker 2: of in our mind and visual, so it's really hard
Speaker 2: to know that stuff. And Rob and Tad on some
Speaker 2: of their projects, I've kind of been like, man, I
Speaker 2: don't know. That's above my limit of what I think
Speaker 2: is gonna hold and what I think is gonna actually
Speaker 2: work when it comes down to mobile grass people playing
Speaker 2: the course. And yeah, I got to be completely honest.
Speaker 2: I mean I was like, I don't know if this
Speaker 2: is gonna work, but I did it because he was
Speaker 2: very confident, and it works and I've seen it. I've
Speaker 2: played it. I've hit shots into it where I would
Speaker 2: not have gone past that in my own comfort level.
Speaker 2: And so there's not that many guys doing that out
Speaker 2: there out here right now, you know, And it's sometimes
Speaker 2: that's trial and error, but you don't want to have
Speaker 2: the error. You don't want to be digging up a green,
Speaker 2: you know, two years down the road. And they haven't.
Speaker 2: They haven't dug up greens, they haven't done this stuff.
Speaker 2: So they're kind of pushing some of my limits. And
Speaker 2: I think it's actually making me a better constructor of
Speaker 2: golf and a better designer of golf, and it's kind
Speaker 2: of opening up different corridors in my mind for what's possible.
Speaker 2: And when I started to realize that there's no other
Speaker 2: firm that I would want to work with other than
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben, I thought about, okay, well, you know,
Speaker 2: when Bill and Ben decided to slow down, who am
Speaker 2: I going to go, you know, try and scrape up
Speaker 2: a job with, you know, And it's either myself or
Speaker 2: somebody else. And I ran through it all in my
Speaker 2: head and I was like, the only the only guys
Speaker 2: from a personal notice that these guys are my friends,
Speaker 2: and I like them, and I get along with them,
Speaker 2: But as far as architectural side of things, yeah, they're
Speaker 2: they They actually kind of pushed my boundaries a little bit,
Speaker 2: which which I think, in turn is going to make
Speaker 2: what we do in the future way better.
Speaker 1: So do you have an example in mind of a
Speaker 1: feature that Rob and Tad designed and that maybe you
Speaker 1: helped to execute or put in the ground that you
Speaker 1: looked at in concept and were like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is going to work, but then it turned
Speaker 1: out it did work.
Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, you know, I can I can say that.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's it's kind of controversial green out
Speaker 2: here in Nebraska, but it's the fourth green at land Man.
Speaker 2: It's a it's probably a nine thousand square foot green
Speaker 2: as far as mobile turf, but there's probably two thousand
Speaker 2: pottable square feet. And that the how I was building
Speaker 2: that thing is is you know, I think it was
Speaker 2: a US open was happening, and it could have been
Speaker 2: at Wingfoot and we were just kind of looking at
Speaker 2: some of that stuff and it has It doesn't really
Speaker 2: represent anything about the wing Foot greens at all, but
Speaker 2: it was just how the turf gets mowed down so
Speaker 2: harshly and steeply down those faces and around and back up.
Speaker 2: And how extreme the outer limits of those greens are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the how Andy and my colleague Andy Johnson, founder
Speaker 1: of Friday Gandy Johnson wrote, wrote a piece about the
Speaker 1: unpinnable area of wing Foot Wingfoot's greens. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like the distinctive feature of them, that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of area on those greens that you cannot put a
Speaker 1: pin on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and and to be completely honest, we never,
Speaker 2: I never really thought about that, Like we weren't thinking
Speaker 2: about that. We were just thinking about I always call
Speaker 2: this when I look at greens. I call it the
Speaker 2: legs of the green, the sexiness of a green, and
Speaker 2: how the curves and contours roll over and drape over her,
Speaker 2: and it's just it's it's the most beautiful part of
Speaker 2: a green to me. And I so I call it
Speaker 2: the legs the sexiness of a green, and it's what
Speaker 2: stands out mostly when we craft these greens. For me,
Speaker 2: this is my opinion. I noticed that first and foremost
Speaker 2: when I walk up beside a green and I'm looking
Speaker 2: at a side profile of her, or we're off the
Speaker 2: back and you've you've you know, we focus so much
Speaker 2: on mishits off the sides of greens and backs and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And when a green looks really good
Speaker 2: and really sexy from all of those angles, you know
Speaker 2: that you've got something really special. And this fourth green,
Speaker 2: you know, I was working at it with Rob, and
Speaker 2: I could tell that it was going to be good
Speaker 2: because I would put something in and then Rob would
Speaker 2: come back and he'd be so excited, and then we
Speaker 2: would tweak it and make it more. We would just
Speaker 2: work at it and work at it, and I probably
Speaker 2: worked at it for two days and then finally we
Speaker 2: got it and Tad came out and looked at it,
Speaker 2: and he's like, man, this is good, but you know
Speaker 2: it's it's to me. And it proved that that green.
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people, I don't know if
Speaker 2: they really like it or think they can hold it
Speaker 2: or whatever. It's one of the more from what Will Anderson,
Speaker 2: the owner of Landman, says, it's one of the more
Speaker 2: controversial greens out there, and for right reason. I mean,
Speaker 2: it messes with you. But what I've really found out
Speaker 2: is that that's a really good tale of good golf architecture.
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to be cocky or whatever. But
Speaker 2: it's absolutely be true, and we played that this year.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm a I'm a pretty shitty golfer. I
Speaker 2: hit when I when I play golf, I hit three ball,
Speaker 2: four ball, five balls. If I don't like that the
Speaker 2: shot that I hit, there could be four balls on
Speaker 2: the green that are mine. And my friends just know it.
Speaker 2: And I just play that way of golf. I don't
Speaker 2: keep track of score. I don't have the time to
Speaker 2: really get good at golf because you need to be
Speaker 2: on the course all the time if you want to
Speaker 2: get your the little number on that scorecard down to
Speaker 2: a certain number, right. But I do enjoy hitting certain shots,
Speaker 2: and I can hit them with a few tries. But
Speaker 2: when I did that, I hit two good shots and
Speaker 2: I was on the green and I was putt. I
Speaker 2: could have putt for Birdie granted to one of the shots,
Speaker 2: I freaking threw off into the woods. But I dropped
Speaker 2: another one and hit a good shot too. So it
Speaker 2: the green works, that the whole works. It's just people
Speaker 2: either can't figure it out or they weren't good at
Speaker 2: that time when they played the whole. And you know,
Speaker 2: it functions, it drains well, there's no flaws to it,
Speaker 2: and at first when I was building it with Rob,
Speaker 2: I was a little bit hesitant on it. But you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's just one. That's one example. This is so interesting. No,
Speaker 2: that's great. That's great because it gets at something that
Speaker 2: I'm interested in with your partnership with Rob and Tad.
Speaker 2: And that's that I see you as. And you can
Speaker 2: correct me if I'm on the wrong track here, but
Speaker 2: I see you as representing a kind of different strain
Speaker 2: in golf architecture than they do, or at least coming
Speaker 2: from a different background. Right.
Speaker 1: They came up in Gary Player's organization, and their work
Speaker 1: often strikes me as very influenced by Mike Strands and
Speaker 1: Pete Dye. And maybe these are architects you love is well,
Speaker 1: But you have worked a lot with Coren Crenshaw, which
Speaker 1: is known more for a kind of minimalist and naturalist approach.
Speaker 1: So do you think you're going to bring a different
Speaker 1: point of view to what Rob and Tad are doing,
Speaker 1: a different set of skills and preferences, or do you
Speaker 1: see more kind of consonants and similarity between you and
Speaker 1: the two of them.
Speaker 2: I think we're very similar, Garrett. I mean I think,
Speaker 2: you know, Rob worked for Gary Player for a few
Speaker 2: years and another art architect previous to that, But you know,
Speaker 2: I think that was just trying to get into the business,
Speaker 2: you know, So I wouldn't necessarily say that Rob's philosophy
Speaker 2: stems from that. I think, to be honest, like when
Speaker 2: we were when we were working together in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven on that Gary Player project, Rob was showing
Speaker 2: me pictures of Pinehurst and then he was showing me
Speaker 2: all of this archite texture that I had no idea about.
Speaker 2: And at that time it was one of those projects
Speaker 2: that one or slightly after when we did a little
Speaker 2: bit of a Donald Ross restoration in Winnipeg, Manitoba, was
Speaker 2: when I switched. I realized that building cad golf it
Speaker 2: was not for me. I've really enjoyed the aspect of
Speaker 2: being really precise on a bulldozer or an excavator to
Speaker 2: where im and the architect came out with his laser
Speaker 2: and took shots. He's like, oh, there we go. It's
Speaker 2: to plan because it showed a talent that I could
Speaker 2: hone and work on with a bulldozer or an excavator.
Speaker 2: But Rob was one of the first guys that was
Speaker 2: really showing me Mike Strands, look at this, Trevor, look
Speaker 2: at this. Check this out. He was really trying to
Speaker 2: do something different with that project that we did in Cranbrook, BC,
Speaker 2: and it is it is a little bit different stylistically
Speaker 2: than other Gary Player projects. And it has to do
Speaker 2: with Rob and and Jeff Lawrence and then also the
Speaker 2: guys that were on that crew, like Riley Johns was
Speaker 2: out there with us and that's where we all met,
Speaker 2: so we all became really good friends on that project.
Speaker 1: So just for a background, that's a Gary Player project
Speaker 1: in Canada that you were all working on around the
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven to two thousand and eight range.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you know, and and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of guys that stem from that that are still doing
Speaker 2: really good work. There's there's Ryan Kalinka who worked for
Speaker 2: Keith and Riley and do stuff with them. And then
Speaker 2: Dan phil Cox. He's one of Rod Whitman and Keith
Speaker 2: Cutton's main guys and I've worked with him. So a
Speaker 2: lot of that stuff came from, you know, that point,
Speaker 2: and we all obviously grew in our careers and got
Speaker 2: got you know, better at what we do. But but
Speaker 2: I think going back to what your your original question is,
Speaker 2: I think there's like stylistically and philosophically, you know, I've
Speaker 2: I've spent more time with Bill and Ben, and Bill.
Speaker 2: Bill has really taught me certain things that kind of
Speaker 2: are subliminal in golf architecture. It's hard for me to
Speaker 2: even explain it to you, Like, like I no matter
Speaker 2: how many guys try and get into Bill's head, he'll
Speaker 2: throw a loop at you. Same thing with Ben, right,
Speaker 2: he sometimes he'll just gravitate to something, then you'll be
Speaker 2: way off. You're like, damn, I was way off there, Bill,
Speaker 2: But you know he can pull a little bit of
Speaker 2: that and utilize it, and then we can and sometimes
Speaker 2: you're bang on Bill's like that's that's perfect, that's great.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, one of the things that
Speaker 2: I'll be able to bring to them is just a
Speaker 2: different you know, background, like Rob and I and and Tad,
Speaker 2: but mainly Rob and I have chatted for the past
Speaker 2: decade and a half at least once a month, and
Speaker 2: I would say more like every two weeks, like that's
Speaker 2: how close we've been. And and you know, he even
Speaker 2: helped us out in Yokohama, Japan for you know, a
Speaker 2: few six six weeks while I was back home and
Speaker 2: we were having our first son. So you know, he's
Speaker 2: been he's been around it. But yeah, there is going
Speaker 2: to be I'm hoping I can bring something a little
Speaker 2: bit different. I wouldn't want to say that I'm just
Speaker 2: going to bring the same thing because then they're like, well,
Speaker 2: what the hell do we need you here for? You
Speaker 2: do the same shit as us, So.
Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine, I would imagine your experience
Speaker 1: shaping features for uh, corn Crunshaw especially, You've worked for
Speaker 1: a number of other architects as well, not just Corn Crunshaw,
Speaker 1: but that that experience is very valuable because if you're
Speaker 1: talking about the best in the business at finish work
Speaker 1: and at esthetic and tying things in and and the
Speaker 1: work in the ground, then is there anybody better than
Speaker 1: than Corn Crunshaw.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Bill and Ben. Again this sounds pretty cocky,
Speaker 2: but they are the best. It's it's it's it's undeniable.
Speaker 2: There's there's just levels to it. You know. It's and
Speaker 2: and you know Bill and Ben in the way that
Speaker 2: they you know, give give confidence to the guys that
Speaker 2: we worked with. We're like a bunch of we could
Speaker 2: be a bunch of misfits as guys. You know, like
Speaker 2: we a lot of us came from different backgrounds. We
Speaker 2: didn't all come from landscape architecture backgrounds or sitting in offices.
Speaker 2: You know, everybody's kind of come in for their certain reasons,
Speaker 2: and Bill has has gravitated to each one of us
Speaker 2: and and Ben and and seen something in us. Maybe
Speaker 2: it was just some spark, and then he's kind of
Speaker 2: brought us in and help mold us in certain ways.
Speaker 2: And then you know, also it's you know, he's given
Speaker 2: us that breadth to you know, create our own style,
Speaker 2: in our own creativity. And he doesn't ever hold us
Speaker 2: back saying, oh that was stupid, Trevor, why'd you build that?
Speaker 2: He always will joke about something if you get a
Speaker 2: little bit too crazy, but he won't ever wipe it
Speaker 2: out completely. He instills a lot of confidence in us,
Speaker 2: which is that's huge because when you're a young, young
Speaker 2: architect and you're just trying to get out on your own,
Speaker 2: confidence is huge, and especially guys that don't have confidence
Speaker 2: going into it. You have to be so confident if
Speaker 2: you're going to try and stand up in front of
Speaker 2: a board membership and you're in your thirties and they're
Speaker 2: going to give you millions of dollars to do something special.
Speaker 2: They have to see something in you. And Build has
Speaker 2: has done that with and Ben and Scotti our business manager,
Speaker 2: he's done that with They've done that with all of us,
Speaker 2: and it's it's I couldn't be more grateful to those
Speaker 2: guys for that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, hey, I wanted to take a quick break
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Speaker 1: a bit about Old Dane, what you're doing right now.
Speaker 1: In fact, you you came from the construction site to
Speaker 1: to talk with me, and I'm grateful for the time
Speaker 1: because obviously you're you're in the midst of a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff out at Old Dane. First of all, just
Speaker 1: tell me about the golf course and and what you're
Speaker 1: doing there.
Speaker 2: Well, Garrett, it's going to be the best golf course
Speaker 2: in the Braskts sand Hill is going to be you
Speaker 2: just wait, you just yeah, exactly best twelve holes on
Speaker 2: the planet, now, you know what it's the start of
Speaker 2: this was kind of interesting. You know. It's stemmed from coming,
Speaker 2: you know, working out here at Landman for like the
Speaker 2: ten twelve days that I was here and just meeting
Speaker 2: Will Anderson. And obviously if you've met Will Anderson, he's
Speaker 2: such a good guy, very humble, comes from very humble
Speaker 2: back farming background, and his family's just great. I couldn't
Speaker 2: be I couldn't have been more happy, as like said
Speaker 2: to Robin tad Man, you guys landed one of the
Speaker 2: best clients out there. And you know I've always had
Speaker 2: a text thing going with Will a little bit here
Speaker 2: and there, and then Will you know, he basically, you know,
Speaker 2: said hey, is there is there any chance that you'd
Speaker 2: want to help redo or enhance the Old Dane? And
Speaker 2: at first I was like, I looked at I only
Speaker 2: seen it barely from the parking lot once, and then
Speaker 2: I looked at it on Google Earth and photos and
Speaker 2: stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Much for context. It's like maybe what minute drive away
Speaker 1: from Landman fin like pretty close, right, yeah, it's one
Speaker 1: of my colleagues, Matt Ruschius was on the was on
Speaker 1: the crew at at land Man and uh he uh
Speaker 1: he and the some of the younger guys would would
Speaker 1: play out at Old Dane every once in a while
Speaker 1: they would go out to play some golf. So it's
Speaker 1: pretty pretty close to land Man.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And you know Will Will, you know, he
Speaker 2: he changed that course when he was younger and built
Speaker 2: some stuff, and you know, he built some different greens
Speaker 2: and they they just made it and and you know what,
Speaker 2: it's the greens are kind of cool out here. It's
Speaker 2: got like side to side across the property. It's dead flat,
Speaker 2: but they made some valleys and some swales that you know,
Speaker 2: when Will said, hey, do you want to look at
Speaker 2: this and and see what you can do? Well, I
Speaker 2: tried to get the light our data and and like
Speaker 2: an aerial photo, but for some reason it couldn't connect
Speaker 2: to each other. So I just said, you know what,
Speaker 2: I'm not even going to look at the course. I'm
Speaker 2: just gonna look at the light our data. So I
Speaker 2: had a blank piece of paper with light our lines
Speaker 2: on it, and that's kind of how I routed the course.
Speaker 2: And it had a driving range, and I was like,
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not gonna I don't really want
Speaker 2: to waste Like I don't. I'm not a huge fan
Speaker 2: of driving ranges because mainly I never grew up sitting
Speaker 2: at the driving range. But some people it's very it's
Speaker 2: a necessary amenity. But for me, I'm just like, I
Speaker 2: just want to play golf and it just stems from
Speaker 2: my style of how I want to play. So I've
Speaker 2: just routed holes over top of the whole piece of
Speaker 2: land and I was like, oh, I was like, shit,
Speaker 2: I got twelve holes and twelve comes back to the
Speaker 2: clubhouse and six is close to the clubhouse. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is kind of good. I don't know how I
Speaker 2: did it, but it worked. And you know, it's an
Speaker 2: outer loop and then an inner loop, so you know,
Speaker 2: I'm I'm hitting all the right boxes. And I did
Speaker 2: a few other outings just to double check myself, and
Speaker 2: they weren't nearly as good. And and then I just said,
Speaker 2: you know what, will I think that this could be
Speaker 2: good if you're you know, allowing me free will to
Speaker 2: do whatever we need to do on this thing. And
Speaker 2: he I sent it to him and he's like absolutely
Speaker 2: let's go with this. So that's kind of how it started.
Speaker 2: And you know, we Will is so good. He knew
Speaker 2: how busy I was in Saint Lucia and then starting
Speaker 2: the torch Key project. You know, he said, you know,
Speaker 2: I said, Will, I don't know if I'm going to
Speaker 2: be able to get his or any way we can
Speaker 2: push this back a year, and He's like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think we can push it back a year, but our
Speaker 2: irrigation system won't go two years. So you know, so
Speaker 2: you just want to try not to conflict with you know,
Speaker 2: different projects, and so far we're making it work, but
Speaker 2: it's never a good timing to try and take on,
Speaker 2: you know, two projects and two roles. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: it just kind of came together like that. And I
Speaker 2: used a lot of the contour that was there because
Speaker 2: I don't want to just you know, make push dirt
Speaker 2: around for the sake of pushing dirt. I want to
Speaker 2: be conscious about the budget and utilizing the interesting features
Speaker 2: that we're there, so, you know, and Will has a
Speaker 2: has a architectural IQ that is very high, so he
Speaker 2: understands all of these old, quirky features that I've been
Speaker 2: studying for the past twenty years that I want to
Speaker 2: you know, instill, not copy verbatim, but some of the
Speaker 2: some of the hints of certain weird things like at
Speaker 2: Huntercombe and and you know, Barrick and and just just
Speaker 2: those places you know that are that are interesting and people,
Speaker 2: and just to try and give a little bit of
Speaker 2: a different flavor to the gulf around here. And we
Speaker 2: kind of need to write like it's flat. You know,
Speaker 2: if you try and try and do something a little different,
Speaker 2: I think it's going to kind of little be it
Speaker 2: be better received. So at first maybe people won't get
Speaker 2: some of it, but I think eventually they'll just play
Speaker 2: the play the game of golf and they'll start to
Speaker 2: realize it. And Will is so good about it. You know,
Speaker 2: we've got some really good ideas on what we're going
Speaker 2: to do out here, and some concepts that you know
Speaker 2: aren't very prevalent in Nebraska golf that we're going to
Speaker 2: instill out here. So he's he's he's on board. He's
Speaker 2: come up with some really good ideas out there. And
Speaker 2: and you know, I when I put on the plan,
Speaker 2: you know his name is on there. Redesigned by Trev
Speaker 2: Dormer and Will Anderson, and I wanted it to be
Speaker 2: that way because I want to collaborate with the owners
Speaker 2: of projects, and especially Will when I knew he was
Speaker 2: he worked on the course when he was younger and
Speaker 2: reshifted some things around, and then he helped build land
Speaker 2: Man with those guys. I mean, he he's on it.
Speaker 2: He's he brings aside to this project where he's thinking about,
Speaker 2: you know, the player, the guy that can hit shots,
Speaker 2: execute shots into these things that I'm I haven't been
Speaker 2: around a lot. So he's he's really kind of showing
Speaker 2: me that that that direction as well. And and you know,
Speaker 2: we we think about that with Bill and Ben, but
Speaker 2: you know we don't. I don't have a player standing
Speaker 2: beside me being like, oh well what about this, Trevor,
Speaker 2: what about this? You know? So I think it's gonna
Speaker 2: it's gonna be pretty interesting, and I hope, you know,
Speaker 2: first and foremost, everybody's gonna have fun out there, and
Speaker 2: and and it's going to be walking only. So Will,
Speaker 2: Will is adamant no matter how much people are upset
Speaker 2: about walking only, it's it's you know, it's it's going
Speaker 2: to be really good that way. So that that releases
Speaker 2: a few handcuffs for me.
Speaker 1: Bety have to consider the cart paths. That's huge. Can
Speaker 1: you give me a specific on this course of something
Speaker 1: quirky that you're building that might jump out a players
Speaker 1: when when they see.
Speaker 2: It, Well, we we got a you know, we got
Speaker 2: a big volcano green.
Speaker 1: I mean that thing, that volcano green is like a
Speaker 1: grain that's kind of elevated up from the surrounding grade
Speaker 1: that kind of kind of sticks up like a volcano basically,
Speaker 1: and the green is on top of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, you know, I don't know how high it's
Speaker 2: going to be yet, if that's a field process, but
Speaker 2: we're going to make it definitely stick out of the ground.
Speaker 2: And it's not going to be like a like a
Speaker 2: Mount Fuji volcano. It's going to be a landform that's
Speaker 2: definitely higher than the rest of the surrounding area, and
Speaker 2: then it'll merge and spill down into the set of tees.
Speaker 2: It'll spill down off the back. So the landform is
Speaker 2: maybe it's going to be, you know, a hundred yards wide,
Speaker 2: and the green is however much yards you know, like
Speaker 2: it's going to bleed out and connect into the landscape.
Speaker 2: And and we've taken a different approach already Uh, Jeff Bradley,
Speaker 2: who works with Corn Crenshaw and has been you know,
Speaker 2: one of the one of the key guys. He actually
Speaker 2: was doing some stuff that sand Hills, just kind of
Speaker 2: you know, getting stuff ready for winter, and and he
Speaker 2: was cruising through here and he's like, Hey, I got
Speaker 2: some time, can I come help you out? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: we're there. Jeff Bradley's one of the.
Speaker 1: Hooker shapers in the world, just just dropping by your project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And and the odd thing. Odd thing is is
Speaker 2: he's he's just been on a bulldozer. He hasn't been
Speaker 2: on an excavator yet. He's, uh, you know, he's he's
Speaker 2: just here to help out. He's he's got a good
Speaker 2: relationship with the Anderson family because Jeff did most of
Speaker 2: the bunkers at Landman and and he loves it out here.
Speaker 2: And so so, yeahs out here helping us out for
Speaker 2: a little bit of time before he goes back home.
Speaker 2: And so and then how we're thinking about the shaping
Speaker 2: process out here is we've got greens and teas and
Speaker 2: how the holes are going to kind of fit together.
Speaker 2: But we're not taking the approach of shaping the holes
Speaker 2: as a separate hole. We're basically sweeping from the west
Speaker 2: side of the property and working our way across the
Speaker 2: whole property as if it's one massive playing ground, and
Speaker 2: I don't need We kind of have an idea where
Speaker 2: grass lines are going to be. Some grass lines have
Speaker 2: merged into a double fairway just just for the sake
Speaker 2: of it, just because it doesn't make sense to mow
Speaker 2: a ten yard wide stretch of either long grass or
Speaker 2: rough grass. So we've got that. We've got, you know,
Speaker 2: a par par three that falls away and a partially
Speaker 2: blind with some sleepers in the front of it. Oh goodness,
Speaker 2: We've got you know, we've got like whole number ten
Speaker 2: is kind of interesting. It's kind of got a higher
Speaker 2: left side of the fairway, you know, it's a short,
Speaker 2: short part four and a skinny right side of the fairway,
Speaker 2: and you can kind of choose your own adventure. It's
Speaker 2: kind of separated by a valley that was naturally there
Speaker 2: that kind of runs through where twelve and ten and
Speaker 2: all this stuff. So I just kind of used those
Speaker 2: valleys that I seen on that topo map, not even
Speaker 2: thinking about where greens are on the old course, and
Speaker 2: just kind of tried to fit stuff together naturally, and
Speaker 2: so you know, and some some holes were building, some
Speaker 2: holes are kind of laying there, and we're just trying
Speaker 2: to make it. You know, cult always spoke about infinite variety,
Speaker 2: and that's been two words that have guided and you
Speaker 2: know a lot of things. I really try and make
Speaker 2: sure that I don't repeat stuff, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I'll build stuff and I'll be like, damn it. You know,
Speaker 2: you don't even notice it when you're doing it. You
Speaker 2: do three or four different things on a couple different holes,
Speaker 2: and you're like, ah shit, I did it again. It's
Speaker 2: so hard because because that feature looks good and you
Speaker 2: like building it and it's it and you want to
Speaker 2: kind of instill it, but you know, it's got to
Speaker 2: fit and it's got to make its own place. Sometimes
Speaker 2: you can get away and do a couple of things
Speaker 2: on the course. Sometimes it's one time on that whole
Speaker 2: course that makes that hole memorable. And that's what really
Speaker 2: we're working hard is to try and really make this
Speaker 2: course memorable the first time you play it and not
Speaker 2: you know, get lost. There's so many golf courses out
Speaker 2: there that you walk off the eighteenth hole and you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I made a birdie on what the hell hole was that?
Speaker 2: You know? With the bunkers, you know, they're all the
Speaker 2: same bunkers, they're all you can't tell the bunkers apart,
Speaker 2: you know. So that's a bit. That's one of my
Speaker 2: biggest pet peeves. And that's what we're really trying to
Speaker 2: do out here is make it so that every bunker
Speaker 2: is distinct, has its own character. Jeff Bradley and I
Speaker 2: were talking about that this morning, about a kind of
Speaker 2: a cool area for a bunkers where they can merge
Speaker 2: together on two different holes, and they said to Jeff,
Speaker 2: I said, we have to make sure that the bunkers,
Speaker 2: the greens and the features. In like five years, if
Speaker 2: there's a photograph of it, people are going to be like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's that's a little Dane. And if we do that,
Speaker 2: we win. And if and if people are having fun
Speaker 2: playing it, that's the biggest thing. But if we if
Speaker 2: we make it distinct unique, which we're really working hard at,
Speaker 2: we're gonna win.
Speaker 1: So, you know, there's something kind of philosophically interesting in
Speaker 1: what you're saying. When you design a course like Old
Speaker 1: Dane on a site that is frankly pretty flat from
Speaker 1: what I can see that this You know, you've kind
Speaker 1: of alluded to this and what you're saying about it.
Speaker 1: It's not like the most high potential site for a
Speaker 1: golf course in the world. People are familiar with land Man.
Speaker 1: Yes it's nearby, but a completely different kind of landscape.
Speaker 1: You know, it can be more different in fact than
Speaker 1: like Landman is so severe that it's almost hard to
Speaker 1: have a golf course there. This is a pretty flat
Speaker 1: piece of property. And you come out of tradition that
Speaker 1: takes inspiration from the land. And so when you're trying
Speaker 1: to build a varied, memorable golf course and you're not
Speaker 1: really getting any help from the land, what do you do, Like,
Speaker 1: where do you get your inspiration from for how to
Speaker 1: shape things and what kinds of features to include when
Speaker 1: there's not much there in the land itself.
Speaker 2: Well, the last thing that I want to do, Garrett,
Speaker 2: is say I want to build the sixteenth hole at
Speaker 2: North Barrick, or I want to do the eighth green
Speaker 2: at sand Hills. That's the last thing I want to do. Now.
Speaker 2: There might be a little piece of the green at
Speaker 2: sand and I've never been out sand Hills so I
Speaker 2: don't know, and I've never been to North Barrack, so
Speaker 2: I don't know. But there might be a little piece
Speaker 2: that catches my eye of a certain hole that I've seen.
Speaker 2: It's kind of I've computed all of this knowledge and
Speaker 2: photos into my head and I won't even really know
Speaker 2: what course it is, but I'll be like, ah shit,
Speaker 2: I seen a course somewhere in the north of Scotland
Speaker 2: that had one thing about it that really struck me.
Speaker 2: And I'll find it and I'll be like, Okay, well
Speaker 2: maybe there's something like this. Keep it up there, Trevor.
Speaker 2: And to be honest of the like, we've shaped one, two,
Speaker 2: three greens already out here in the past month, and
Speaker 2: none of them are on that drawing of the old day.
Speaker 2: None of them are even close. Like they're all in
Speaker 2: the field riffing. And that's the biggest That's That's basically
Speaker 2: how what we do is we we kind of have
Speaker 2: an idea of length, orientation of a whole and then
Speaker 2: we riff and we just kind of be like, well
Speaker 2: what do we do here? And I a lot of
Speaker 2: times I don't We have spots for bunkers, but I
Speaker 2: don't think about building a bunker. I shape a lot
Speaker 2: of the stuff on the fairways and stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and then we're also thinking about, you know what, other
Speaker 2: what what other hazards are there. I don't want to
Speaker 2: build a a sand bunker just because there needs to
Speaker 2: be a hazard there. We're thinking about multitude of different
Speaker 2: hazards that we've seen throughout our you know, experience, and
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to try a lot of times.
Speaker 2: Abrupt contour in the fair way can mess with you
Speaker 2: just as much as a bunker, and it's easier to maintain,
Speaker 2: so we're really being conscious about that as well. But
Speaker 2: to be I don't know how many of more of
Speaker 2: these I got left in my career. It's tough, man like,
Speaker 2: you can't keep building on flat sites and try and
Speaker 2: not repeat yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I would imagine that. It's really hard
Speaker 1: to come up with a zillion different ideas. I'm reminded,
Speaker 1: in fact, of a story that Bill Corr likes to
Speaker 1: tell about working at Talking Stick building thirty six holes
Speaker 1: at Talking Stick. Unbelievable pair of golf courses considering what
Speaker 1: they started with. But at the beginning of that project,
Speaker 1: Bill was saying to Ben and Dave Axland and everybody
Speaker 1: else who was working on that project. Guys, if you
Speaker 1: have any ideas for holes on flat land that you
Speaker 1: want to build, then bring him to me. Because we've
Speaker 1: got to build thirty six holes on nothing. We've got
Speaker 1: to come up with a bunch of different ideas. And
Speaker 1: so what you're saying, if you work on flat side
Speaker 1: after flat site, it's just really hard to keep refreshing
Speaker 1: that well of ideas because you're not really getting much
Speaker 1: from the land.
Speaker 2: Well, i'll tell you. I'll tell you another thing, Garrett.
Speaker 2: I've been preparing for this because I've known it's been
Speaker 2: coming for a decade or more. Because I knew that
Speaker 2: when I first started getting projects, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: get the best sites. I'm going to get some shitty sites.
Speaker 2: And I knew that this was coming. And I studied
Speaker 2: Buenos Aires Golf Club, the Mackenzie course that they built up.
Speaker 2: He built out there. He had twelve feet of fall
Speaker 2: over top of the whole property, and it was the
Speaker 2: last twelve feet of fall was like in a short run.
Speaker 2: And he just started cutting swales and taking water from
Speaker 2: all different sections of that property to create that interest.
Speaker 2: And you know this is probably Mackenzie being a bit
Speaker 2: of a salesman, but he said that the course does
Speaker 2: not need to be bunkered. It's beautiful the way it is.
Speaker 2: But he's only putting in a few bunkers because the
Speaker 2: owner likes it, you know. So I really that really
Speaker 2: stuck out to me about a decade ago of how
Speaker 2: Mackenzie did it on a not spectacular rumpled rolling land.
Speaker 2: And I studied it and studied it and studied it
Speaker 2: and thought, okay, well that's that's definitely the way to
Speaker 2: create interest is to dig swales and to move. If
Speaker 2: you cut two feet on a flat fairway and fill
Speaker 2: two feet, you've got links land, you know, small rumpled
Speaker 2: links land, which is.
Speaker 1: It's just like the dirt kind of moving dirt from
Speaker 1: one place to another. And you do it a few
Speaker 1: times and all of a sudden you got and.
Speaker 2: Then you move your way, move your move your water
Speaker 2: off the fairway, get it out of the way. It's
Speaker 2: it's it seems simple, but then you also have to
Speaker 2: be very particular in how you shape the ground. A
Speaker 2: lot of guys, especially in the eighties and nineties, they
Speaker 2: rolled down the fairway and on the sides and went
Speaker 2: off the left hand side and down as you would
Speaker 2: play the golf. Well, we know what that produces, right,
Speaker 2: So I've learned from some of the best guys on
Speaker 2: bulldozers to have to have done this, And one thing
Speaker 2: I noticed is they kind of work in diagonal fashions
Speaker 2: or sideways. Rod Witman was the first guy that I
Speaker 2: kind of took notice to that. Rod shapes a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff sideways and kind of carves out swales sideways,
Speaker 2: and then he kind of hits it a little bit
Speaker 2: differently and and and you have to work yourself in
Speaker 2: maybe not all different directions, but it different direction from
Speaker 2: the line of play otherwise. And that doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: you can go and move dirt and do a finished
Speaker 2: grade in the line of play if that's what you're
Speaker 2: looking for. But you got to be make sure that
Speaker 2: you're keeping yourself random, because you know, you can look
Speaker 2: at a lot of modern links courses, even some of
Speaker 2: the best courses out there, and you can I can
Speaker 2: tell where the guy went in there and with his
Speaker 2: bulldozer and then went, you know, ten yards to the
Speaker 2: right and built up a little thing. And it's like
Speaker 2: all these especially aerial photography, you can see it all
Speaker 2: throughout these these supposedly random rolling train and then they've
Speaker 2: made it not random and they're some of the best
Speaker 2: courses in the world. But it's not a negative thing.
Speaker 2: It's just something that I don't want to do. I
Speaker 2: want to make sure that it's like, you know, you're
Speaker 2: not thinking about that. So a lot of times I
Speaker 2: put music in or a podcast and it's I'm focused
Speaker 2: on the podcast and it's just subliminal, and that really
Speaker 2: helps me not to focus too much on exactly what
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and then you you know, end up with
Speaker 2: happy mistakes that you can work off of when you
Speaker 2: actually get out to focus.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. You like to remove your kind of internal
Speaker 1: editor when you're doing some of this stuff big time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is just my process. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it's the best or there's there's there's guys out there
Speaker 2: that are way better than me at this stuff. But
Speaker 2: I just have this process where I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that I'm not repeating and I'm doing stuff random
Speaker 2: and I'm not thinking about it. I'm not being too
Speaker 2: conscious about making you know, a bunker at Saint George's
Speaker 2: Hill or you know, and that's the there's so much
Speaker 2: golf out there, and there's so much of everything, it's
Speaker 2: kind of hard not to replicate stuff. I I want
Speaker 2: to say that. I'm you know, there's there's a bunch
Speaker 2: of architects that out there that that profess that it's
Speaker 2: all been done before in some way, shape or form,
Speaker 2: So you're not going to get anything new or innovative.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm I'm speaking saying it differently, but I even
Speaker 2: though it probably is true, I can't in my head,
Speaker 2: I cannot refuse to believe that, because that's how you
Speaker 2: just get stifled and that that's that person who's very
Speaker 2: well known and these architects that are very well known
Speaker 2: with that it's all been done before. It's you're just
Speaker 2: doing something in one way, shape or form. Even though
Speaker 2: it's probably true there's a lot of golf out there,
Speaker 2: I just can't allow myself to think that way because
Speaker 2: then you get kind of stuck at that wall of thinking, oh, well,
Speaker 2: it's all been done before. Maybe I should start copying
Speaker 2: or replicating stuff, and I don't. That's the last thing
Speaker 2: I want to do. So you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: times I take inspiration from like mega dune sites on
Speaker 2: Google Earth. I have two different sites that are that
Speaker 2: are in random parts of the world. No golf is
Speaker 2: even close to it, and the dune systems change quite
Speaker 2: frequently from year to year to year to year to year.
Speaker 2: So I've got probably ten years of things where I've
Speaker 2: you know, I've done full routings on a dune site
Speaker 2: out in the middle of the ocean, just to keep
Speaker 2: myself fresh and to see something differently, and luckily enough,
Speaker 2: the aerial imagery of this kind of gets you down
Speaker 2: and you can see it like when Google Earth is
Speaker 2: really good, you can see undulation. This place is probably
Speaker 2: some of the best golf if you were to build
Speaker 2: on it, which would never happen. But that's where I
Speaker 2: start taking some inspiration from playing holds backwards on the
Speaker 2: stuff forward sideways and you know, so anyways, I haven't
Speaker 2: heard about that approach before.
Speaker 1: That that's interesting. You're kind of finding random non golf places,
Speaker 1: like pieces of terrain in the world that you can
Speaker 1: look at digitally, and that that provides some inspiration.
Speaker 2: And it's helped me so many times. My last my
Speaker 2: Leado entry for whatever twenty twenty one was that this
Speaker 2: is the.
Speaker 1: Leado contest where people draw draw imaginary golf holes and
Speaker 1: one is selected the winner or there are finalists and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I had, you know, kind of
Speaker 2: an idea of wanting to kind of do something like
Speaker 2: Elbocron in Argentina, McKenzie's course that was never built.
Speaker 1: But right, yeah, like crazy reverse you know, how many
Speaker 1: holes with how many greens. It's you know, there's a
Speaker 1: real like a reversible kind of element to it, or
Speaker 1: greens are played into from a variety of different directions.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it was. It was an eighteen old course
Speaker 2: with nine double I'm not sure if it was meant
Speaker 2: to be reversible or not.
Speaker 1: But just like Andrew's but but not laid out out
Speaker 1: and back more around.
Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, correct, and and and it didn't. And
Speaker 2: it was for a private you know, a private you know,
Speaker 2: a private course for an estate, and so there's zero
Speaker 2: safety so you basically walk off the green hit your
Speaker 2: next ball. But I kind of thought about that, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I got so I was kind of
Speaker 2: not jaded by the fact that you can build this
Speaker 2: fantasy golf hole for the lido whenever, and it could
Speaker 2: be the best of the best, but it never relates
Speaker 2: to how you would lay it out on an actual
Speaker 2: golf course. So I did a routing for this, you know,
Speaker 2: a bocron style routing, and and I picked how two
Speaker 2: of the holes, well four of the holes interacted together.
Speaker 2: It was a double green. One played into it from
Speaker 2: the side as a par three, and the other one
Speaker 2: played into it from you know, from the south to
Speaker 2: the north. And then it showed how you teed off
Speaker 2: when you crossed chrisscross that and went to sixteen and
Speaker 2: to five, you know. So you know that's and and
Speaker 2: and I got my inspiration from that from a natural
Speaker 2: site that I'm not going to give up.
Speaker 1: This is your special site. You can't tell anybody about it.
Speaker 2: This is yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and the biggest
Speaker 2: thing about it is it's very good imagery, so you
Speaker 2: can kind of you can walk the land, which is
Speaker 2: really cool. So so I go there sometimes a lot
Speaker 2: of times it's it's you know, certain things that I
Speaker 2: want to do. And that's you know, with Will Anderson
Speaker 2: out here, he's he's he's just given free reign. He
Speaker 2: might kind of be like, ooh, I don't know about
Speaker 2: that trip, but let's try it out, or or he
Speaker 2: might find a crazier idea than me. I'll be like,
Speaker 2: oh shit, will you know. But that's what's so good.
Speaker 2: And you know, I never would have done this project
Speaker 2: if it with it wasn't for the Anderson family. The
Speaker 2: client was the first and foremost reason why I did it,
Speaker 2: because if it was another client that couldn't let me
Speaker 2: just breathe and and just feel at home on this
Speaker 2: property and with the team, I wouldn't be successful, because
Speaker 2: you know, that's the last thing. When you're trying to
Speaker 2: really focus on bringing a client the best property or
Speaker 2: the best golf course that you possibly can, and then
Speaker 2: there's peripheral stuff that you got to deal with, it
Speaker 2: just doesn't doesn't work out well. And and so far
Speaker 2: out here, you know, it's been really good. We got
Speaker 2: you know, some of the farm boys from the Anderson
Speaker 2: farms that are helping us out. You know, yeah, we
Speaker 2: got Corey and Matt and Steve the superintendent, he's he
Speaker 2: was on a bulldozer, you know, working with us, and
Speaker 2: all these and you know Tom, and it's just so great,
Speaker 2: you know. And then we've got a really good irrigation
Speaker 2: contract or, ev I Irrigation. They're doing They've just done
Speaker 2: such a great work with the wet Well so far,
Speaker 2: so we've lined up all of these, you know, good
Speaker 2: people to work with, and so far it's really getting
Speaker 2: you know, it's really being cohesive. Now next year when
Speaker 2: we're into the thick of it, there might be uh,
Speaker 2: there might be a few clashes, but we always get
Speaker 2: through that.
Speaker 1: Well do you do you You've worked with some great
Speaker 1: architects obviously, do you ever find yourself now that you're
Speaker 1: the boss on a site kind of stealing tricks from
Speaker 1: Bill Corr or Gil Hans or Rod Whitman in the
Speaker 1: way that you're interacting with your crew. Do you ever
Speaker 1: think about how how those architects kind of direct their
Speaker 1: crew work with their crew and try to apply some
Speaker 1: of that to how you're acting on site.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you know, I've been on the receiving on
Speaker 2: the receiving end and friends with shapers that you know
Speaker 2: have you know, criticisms of how architects work with them.
Speaker 2: So I'm very conscious about that now that I'm in
Speaker 2: this role.
Speaker 1: So what's the worst thing a golf architect can do
Speaker 1: to a shaper?
Speaker 2: Well, we have we're as shapers are creative, we have
Speaker 2: big egos. Sometimes if you don't cut if you don't
Speaker 2: smash it out. So we have these egos. So you
Speaker 2: know what Bill and Raw and Dave Axlin and Ben
Speaker 2: have always preached for the past ten years is don't
Speaker 2: get married to that, and you do you get married
Speaker 2: to Why would I build something and present it to
Speaker 2: somebody like Bill if it wasn't my best flip and work,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. So now your best work comes up to
Speaker 2: be the chopping block. And let's just say, you know,
Speaker 2: if if Bill likes you know, half of it, I'm like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: that's good. He likes none of it. You just sink,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's natural.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, that's that's what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a it's a lot of pressure when
Speaker 2: one of the best golf course architects is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think we need to go a different route. Well
Speaker 2: what do you like of it? Well? Nothing, you know,
Speaker 2: so you have to have and then and then you
Speaker 2: just realize you're working with these guys and it's so
Speaker 2: free flowing and we we jump in and out of
Speaker 2: and that's one thing, is we moving forward. I don't
Speaker 2: really consider myself the boss. I just you know, I
Speaker 2: help direct people and if I'm very adamant about doing
Speaker 2: something because I see a mistake about to happen, then
Speaker 2: I'll interject. But I really Bill has taught us to
Speaker 2: be like, you know, just do what you guys do best.
Speaker 2: You're the professionals, and I'll just kind of come in
Speaker 2: and you know, guide and direct, just like a shepherd,
Speaker 2: you know, like that's what Bill is is a very
Speaker 2: you know, he's a good shepherd of how to keep people.
Speaker 2: He doesn't really force people or get people into the lane.
Speaker 2: You know, we don't have lanes. We just have you know,
Speaker 2: highways that we kind of need to stay on. And
Speaker 2: so so I've really learned over the years how to
Speaker 2: how to be well. It's always a working process on
Speaker 2: trying to be humble as you can, but try to
Speaker 2: be humble in what you're trying to do and to
Speaker 2: recognize that the people that are doing stuff, if you
Speaker 2: don't portray your idea properly, they're not going to get
Speaker 2: it right. And then how do you say to that
Speaker 2: person who spent time doing a good job, how do
Speaker 2: you say, you know, that's probably not right. And I
Speaker 2: always put it on me like saying, hey, guys, I
Speaker 2: have no idea what I'm doing here, but let's just
Speaker 2: try and get something so we can work off of.
Speaker 2: And that isn't that is my process. That's a lot
Speaker 2: of our processes. We're field based architects, don't. We don't
Speaker 2: conform to preconceived notions, even when we've walked the site
Speaker 2: for that much. There's only a few special sites where
Speaker 2: you have these preconceived notions, and that involves sand hills.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's where you do not want to
Speaker 2: mess up anything and you know you've routed something special
Speaker 2: over it. That's when you have preconceived notions of what
Speaker 2: this and even that it's minor adjustments to make it
Speaker 2: playable for golf.
Speaker 1: So so Trevor, you're you're kind of I don't know
Speaker 1: if you see yourself this way, but but you're part
Speaker 1: of a current wave right now of golf architects who
Speaker 1: have spent years shaping for some of the top names
Speaker 1: in the business still the top names in the business,
Speaker 1: but these former shapers now kind of solo architects are
Speaker 1: now getting their shots at projects. And so i'd include
Speaker 1: you alongside people like Kyle Franz and Brian Schneider and
Speaker 1: Blake Conant and Jimmy Craig and Ky Golby and Riley
Speaker 1: Johns and Keith Rebb. There's sort of this cohort that
Speaker 1: is now since the golf course development industry is in
Speaker 1: a surge right now now getting their shots, and I've
Speaker 1: been really interested to see the work coming out of
Speaker 1: this new wave. And I'm wondering if you think that
Speaker 1: this kind of rising generation of architects should try to
Speaker 1: distinguish themselves from Corn Crenshaw and from Tom Doak, from
Speaker 1: gil Hants. Should they be intentionally trying to do something different,
Speaker 1: fresh and new, or should it be more of a continuation.
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, I don't really I mean, thank
Speaker 2: you for including me in some of that. I have
Speaker 2: no idea how the hell that happened, or even if
Speaker 2: it's true, I don't really Well, you're building.
Speaker 1: Your basically your own golf course right now. You're totally
Speaker 1: rebuilding a nine hole golf course, turning it into a
Speaker 1: twelve hole golf course. A lot of young architects out
Speaker 1: there would really like to build a twelve hole golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. I do feel blessed at to be
Speaker 2: in this position. And but you know, those are some
Speaker 2: big names, and I've looked up to those guys for
Speaker 2: a long time and seeing a lot of their work,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like always blown away about how good
Speaker 2: those guys are. And I it's hard for me to
Speaker 2: be even considered in that conversation. But I'll get off
Speaker 2: of that. I don't, you know, I asked, you know,
Speaker 2: I walked around with mister Kaiser, Mike Kaiser for three
Speaker 2: days which was pretty special in Saint Lucia, and chatted
Speaker 2: with him about this and I said, hey, you know
Speaker 2: what you know? He's like, so, what are you going
Speaker 2: to do? Are you going to get out on your own?
Speaker 2: At some point? I'm like, I'm just happy where I'm
Speaker 2: at and this is great being able to work with
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben. And I'm like and asked him, I said, well,
Speaker 2: what do you you know us guys? Do you know
Speaker 2: we've taken all of this knowledge that we've gained from
Speaker 2: Bill and Ben and I don't I don't want to
Speaker 2: do the same stuff that Bill and Ben do. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's them. You know, we're helping build their designs and
Speaker 2: we're we're assisting them, and they're gracious enough to give
Speaker 2: us some free reign on some stuff, but they're really
Speaker 2: it's there. It's always their designs. None of it is
Speaker 2: really our design. But I don't necessarily want I mean,
Speaker 2: it would be highly flattering if in ten years, you know,
Speaker 2: we're doing as good of work as Corn Crenshaw. But
Speaker 2: I want to do something different, just personally, stuff that
Speaker 2: I've thought about in my head, an expression of me
Speaker 2: and and you know, my new partners Rob and tadd
Speaker 2: to be something that's an expression of us, not necessarily
Speaker 2: what Bill and Ben would haven't and I would hope
Speaker 2: the same goes for other guys. I think we need
Speaker 2: to do that in order to advance golf architecture. You know,
Speaker 2: we get there's so many different stages of and eras
Speaker 2: of golf architecture, and you know, I never really thought
Speaker 2: about it, but I think you're right. You know, I
Speaker 2: think as you know, some of these guys that are
Speaker 2: in their forties and thirties and fifties are coming out
Speaker 2: of these certain different schools. I would just hope that
Speaker 2: they do do something different so that we can advance
Speaker 2: things we don't and not for the worst. I think
Speaker 2: it's like we've seen a dark era of golf architecture.
Speaker 2: And we've seen the Golden era of golf architecture, so
Speaker 2: we have two different eras to learn from. And I
Speaker 2: think that the dark era should be studied just as
Speaker 2: much as the Golden Age of golf architecture, and then
Speaker 2: the little bits in between, just to make sure that
Speaker 2: we're not going back, and I think we can. Can
Speaker 2: you imagine if we if you know, the sand Hills
Speaker 2: of Nebraska gets five more golf courses, that's not it
Speaker 2: can it necessarily be unless somebody does something different on
Speaker 2: every piece of that ground. You're going to play all
Speaker 2: five of those courses and you'll be like, Okay, well
Speaker 2: I'm playing the same but I just want to play
Speaker 2: sand Hills because it's the best. You know, if you're
Speaker 2: in that zone and you're building good golf of course
Speaker 2: lay Land and you do, you know, it's it's going
Speaker 2: to be the same feel and style, even though it's amazing.
Speaker 2: But I don't. I think we need to kind of
Speaker 2: differentiate ourselves and kind of do do something different than
Speaker 2: you know, what Tom and Gill and Jim and Bill
Speaker 2: and Ben and those guys have done. I think it
Speaker 2: would be disservice to them if we didn't do something
Speaker 2: that's expressively ours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and you may not have an answer
Speaker 1: to this question. I think it's an unanswerable question. But
Speaker 1: I've been wondering where that difference is going to come from,
Speaker 1: because in terms of process, it seems like you, especially
Speaker 1: as well as other architects from your general generation that
Speaker 1: I've spoken to, you're devoted to the design build method
Speaker 1: and working in the field. And that's something profound that
Speaker 1: you all have learned from Bill and Ben and Tom
Speaker 1: and Gil, and you've learned how to do that really well.
Speaker 1: You know, the design build method has been burnished to
Speaker 1: a shine by this era of golf architecture, and it
Speaker 1: seems like everybody's carrying that on and believes in kind
Speaker 1: of the religion of working in the field. But the
Speaker 1: difference has to come from something else then, I guess,
Speaker 1: because the process is going to be simple similar, You're
Speaker 1: not going to go back to design contract and you know,
Speaker 1: designing from an office it doesn't sound like. But how
Speaker 1: then do you differentiate your architecture from the past generation.
Speaker 1: Is it by introducing more bits of artificiality, not blending
Speaker 1: everything in? Is there something there? Is it by looking
Speaker 1: at different influences different sources of inspiration than perhaps Bill
Speaker 1: and Ben and Tom and Gil would have. And I'm
Speaker 1: talking about these architects in the past tense. They're still working,
Speaker 1: they're still doing amazing work out there, but cant do
Speaker 1: you have some way of starting to answer that question
Speaker 1: of where the difference in the new architecture is going
Speaker 1: to come from?
Speaker 2: You know where that you know where this is going
Speaker 2: to change and where we're going to be well where
Speaker 2: and this is kind of a little bit off off,
Speaker 2: but you know where we're going to get really screwed
Speaker 2: is aire where it's going to It's going to change
Speaker 2: what we do. And I don't know how much time
Speaker 2: we got, but think about this. The most complex part
Speaker 2: of golf architecture is the routing. There's very few people
Speaker 2: that are good at it. You can go and look
Speaker 2: at any any city in America and look at a
Speaker 2: plan view of it, and you can pick out flaws
Speaker 2: in the routing easily. Whether they've shaped wholes parallel to
Speaker 2: each other like this, and then at the end they've
Speaker 2: changed it and come back. That's a massive flaw. And
Speaker 2: a lot and and a lot of those golf architects.
Speaker 2: You know, either we're just recently practicing or still are practicing.
Speaker 2: And that's that's really bad. But if you get AI
Speaker 2: and compress that into build me a routing of a
Speaker 2: well there you go.
Speaker 1: Build me a thousand routings.
Speaker 2: Build me a thousand routings. Is here, here and here,
Speaker 2: and and I'm going to change where the pump station.
Speaker 2: We're going to change where the lake is. Boom computes
Speaker 2: and then to this sounds this sounds horrible. But then
Speaker 2: any young guy that has the computer skills can just talk,
Speaker 2: you know, and and and you have to have you know, knowledge,
Speaker 2: can upload that and to talk to a contractor. All
Speaker 2: these contractors will uh, you know, if the owner, the
Speaker 2: ownership might even just do it. You know, I want
Speaker 2: to build a golf course. I'm going to get this
Speaker 2: contractor to plug my AI routing into their GPS system. Ye,
Speaker 2: the bulldozer guys get it to rint and it's fricking close.
Speaker 2: And and that's what scared the ship.
Speaker 1: Maybe not maybe the maybe the bulldozer robots.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, well that's that's that's right, But that's what
Speaker 2: scared the ship out of the Atlito. And and from
Speaker 2: what I understand, it's still happening now whether or not
Speaker 2: this is a sci fi reality of something that's going
Speaker 2: to happen in the future, I don't know. I still
Speaker 2: think that there's going to be there's going to be
Speaker 2: a space for the craftsmen that like like like us,
Speaker 2: that are are there to put I don't think we'll
Speaker 2: get left out because there's something that you know, robots
Speaker 2: and AI won't be able to do. I'm a firm
Speaker 2: believer in that are our brains are far more complex
Speaker 2: and AI and and our creativity and the human beings
Speaker 2: are far superior to whatever AI can produce. But as
Speaker 2: far as getting it started, there's going to be guys
Speaker 2: out there that figure that out, which are far smarter
Speaker 2: than I am at computer and drawings. They'll plug it
Speaker 2: into a computer, get the best, get a bill Core routing,
Speaker 2: a bill Core tom dope breed of a routing, and
Speaker 2: then they'll get it. Then they'll paint it with the
Speaker 2: best bunker placement for the demographic of golfer that is
Speaker 2: going to play that course, and then they'll highlight it.
Speaker 2: And then you get an agronomist in there and he'll
Speaker 2: tune the turf up better than Shinnecock. And there we
Speaker 2: go you got one of the best golf courses in
Speaker 2: the world, and you know who's rating it. Well, that's
Speaker 2: a different subject.
Speaker 1: Butting it, it won't be me anymore, all right, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be.
Speaker 2: We're laughing about this and we're taking this into into
Speaker 2: the future. But I think there's got to be given
Speaker 2: some space for AI and the routing process on a
Speaker 2: topographical map, for just fluidity, and it's going to keep
Speaker 2: like there's so many things that are so complex when
Speaker 2: it comes to routing. You want to think about wear paths,
Speaker 2: you want to think about cart paths, you want to
Speaker 2: think about times, you know, tea times, and how they're
Speaker 2: going to move. Is there a slowdown effect in that routing?
Speaker 2: Maybe not a jam, but is there a slowdown? How
Speaker 2: can you mitigate that all of these factors are going
Speaker 2: to get into something to where it's a seamless, free
Speaker 2: flowing course that is like highly profitable because golf courses
Speaker 2: don't make a shit ton of money nowadays, even the
Speaker 2: best ones. It's like profit at the end of the year.
Speaker 2: Isn't amazing, isn't like millions and millions of dollars? You know,
Speaker 2: it takes a lot and it's a passion kind of
Speaker 2: product project for these these owners. Some of them really do,
Speaker 2: depending on if you're in the Hamptons and you got
Speaker 2: really rich, you know, private clubs, but but you know,
Speaker 2: public golf courses don't don't do nearly as well.
Speaker 1: Right, So, so regarding the AI thing that you're mentioning,
Speaker 1: right this this is in your response to my question
Speaker 1: about where is the difference in the new generation going
Speaker 1: to come from? And so is the difference that that
Speaker 1: new architects are going to find ways of working with
Speaker 1: AI to produce new kinds of things or are the
Speaker 1: best new architects going to be the holdouts against the
Speaker 1: AI wave, the architects who insist on the kind of
Speaker 1: human approach to architecture. Because I've been thinking about this
Speaker 1: myself from my perspective as a writer and a podcaster,
Speaker 1: because there are products right now, AI driven products that
Speaker 1: can replace a lot of the functions that I am
Speaker 1: responsible for. It can write things much faster than I do,
Speaker 1: It can come up with it, it can learn my voice
Speaker 1: and probably produce podcasts where you know, it's there's someone
Speaker 1: who sounds a lot like me interviewing someone who sounds
Speaker 1: a lot like you. And maybe it'll get to a
Speaker 1: point where people can't really tell the difference. And so
Speaker 1: my conflict has been do I work with our new
Speaker 1: robot overlords and try to become optimized as a human
Speaker 1: that way, or do I say no, I am going
Speaker 1: to be human and flawed, and I am going to
Speaker 1: make that the thing that is different about me. Because
Speaker 1: everybody else is going to give in to the AI.
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold out, and there are going to
Speaker 1: be people who still.
Speaker 2: Want that I'm holding out, Garrett. That's just not fun. Man.
Speaker 2: Like building golf courses what we do. And that's another
Speaker 2: thing that the best golf courses that are built are
Speaker 2: because the team that built it had fun. You can
Speaker 2: tell they had fun. If you're following the build, you
Speaker 2: can tell they're having a good time. They're ripping back
Speaker 2: and forth at each other on social media nowadays, but
Speaker 2: if we didn't have social media, you could, you know,
Speaker 2: call each other up and whatever. But that's the fun
Speaker 2: part of it, is the interaction between humans building it
Speaker 2: and the collaboration part of building a golf course, like
Speaker 2: collaborating with everybody building a golf course. Sure you can,
Speaker 2: you can, you know, be a you know an Ai
Speaker 2: dweeb sitting in his basement building these best golf course
Speaker 2: routings and then build it and get all this you know,
Speaker 2: acclaim for building one of the best golf course. But
Speaker 2: did he have fun? No, he let somebody else do it,
Speaker 2: so or she let somebody else do it, let Ai
Speaker 2: do it. So you're just going to be and unless
Speaker 2: they hide it, but I don't think he can, you know,
Speaker 2: so just you know what we're I'm holding out. I'm
Speaker 2: going to do this until I'm old and gray or
Speaker 2: or crippled. But you know, it's just so fun. I really,
Speaker 2: you know, in the past twenty years, there's been maybe
Speaker 2: a few times in my whole life, even on the
Speaker 2: shittiest rain days or snow days, where I've woken up
Speaker 2: in the morning and been like, damn, I don't want
Speaker 2: to go out there today generally, and I'm being very honest.
Speaker 2: I wake up every morning and whether it's bright, sunny,
Speaker 2: thirty degrees or ninety degrees, and I'm like, frick, I
Speaker 2: can't wait to get out there. So that to me
Speaker 2: is a dream. And the people, you know, people that
Speaker 2: I've done jobs where I've just been like, oh, I
Speaker 2: got to go and do this, and I can't, I
Speaker 2: physically can't. But building golf courses, designing golf courses, there's
Speaker 2: so many different facets to it, so many different things
Speaker 2: you can do within a day or within a year
Speaker 2: or months. That just makes so much variety being fun
Speaker 2: and different things. It's it's it's amazing. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: I love it to death. It's it's it's it's a passion.
Speaker 2: And you know, I've never ever would have thought of
Speaker 2: myself being in this industry. I was. I used to
Speaker 2: fly fish and snowboard and and skateboard. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do golf. Golf was just something that my dad
Speaker 2: and his buddies did on weekends. And you know, before
Speaker 2: I started this, I wanted to be a war correspondent,
Speaker 2: you know. And so I the only reason I'm doing
Speaker 2: what I'm doing right now is because I had to
Speaker 2: pay for school, because you know, I didn't grow up
Speaker 2: in a very wealthy household. And my first job was
Speaker 2: working construction on a golf course and just realizing, hey,
Speaker 2: these shaper guys travel the world without getting shot at.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's the way to go, you know. So so yeah, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: my mom liked it.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I'm sure she was. Yes, golf course construction.
Speaker 1: If you're going to go to Russia, at least be
Speaker 1: on a golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, so so yeah, I don't know. It's
Speaker 2: it's it's been a ride, man, it's been great. It's
Speaker 2: been so fun.
Speaker 1: Are there any ongoing or upcoming King Colin's Dormer projects
Speaker 1: that we should be aware of. I know you've got
Speaker 1: a lot on your plate right now, but are there
Speaker 1: some plans coming together for the next few years, things
Speaker 1: that we should look forward to with this this new
Speaker 1: supergroup that you all have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are we can't really there's some we can't
Speaker 2: talk about. But the one that's really exciting is seven
Speaker 2: mile seven mile North. Nothing is going to be unbelievable.
Speaker 1: So this is out in Tasmania working with Matt Gogin
Speaker 1: out there and his group, a little spit of land
Speaker 1: not far from the Hobart International Airport where Mike Clayton
Speaker 1: and Mike DeVries have been building the first golf course
Speaker 1: King Collins Dormers doing doing the second one. Sandy Land
Speaker 1: right next to the ocean.
Speaker 2: Pretty cool, very very sandy. And what's what's cool about
Speaker 2: it is it's very different than Clayton Debris and Ponta's site.
Speaker 2: It's got some really cool, longer rolling terrain, which you know,
Speaker 2: I can imagine, you know that the artistry that Mike
Speaker 2: and those guys had to do out there, especially when
Speaker 2: you get a lot of choppy dunes, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of manipulation you still have to do to make golf
Speaker 2: holds work. And they did a fantastic job from the
Speaker 2: from the photos that I've seen and foot Robert and
Speaker 2: Tad have told me and showed me about. So yeah,
Speaker 2: that one, I'm very excited. I mean, they can't speak highly,
Speaker 2: you know, highly enough about Matt Gogan. So that's again
Speaker 2: that's one one of the things that you have to
Speaker 2: get right is your client and your owner and and
Speaker 2: make sure he's on board with everything that you want
Speaker 2: to do. And and you know, and then you know,
Speaker 2: Rob and Tatters are still working on their Bounty Club course,
Speaker 2: which I'm not necessarily a part of at all, So
Speaker 2: that was done previous, and I'm doing the Old Dane
Speaker 2: which is previous to it, you know, our partnership, and
Speaker 2: then you know the twenty one Club in you know
Speaker 2: in South Carolina, there I mean, that thing's going to
Speaker 2: be pretty cool too. So we're just kind of, you know,
Speaker 2: we're all really excited to get going on that. And
Speaker 2: it's all just about timing, right, you know. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff coming in and we just are making
Speaker 2: sure that we're available and that we can put all
Speaker 2: of our best foot forward and we can all be
Speaker 2: available on all these sites together or separately at one
Speaker 2: time or another to where you know, we're we're getting
Speaker 2: the best out of the site and and ourselves. So
Speaker 2: but yeah, there's there's some big ones coming up, I'll
Speaker 2: tell you that, some really big ones, and it's it's
Speaker 2: pretty exciting. But we we've you know, we've pushed some
Speaker 2: of them back, you know, just to make sure that
Speaker 2: we can finish things and that I can get finished
Speaker 2: with what I'm doing out here and and that, and
Speaker 2: then we can make sure that we get it the
Speaker 2: attention that we need. So but it's exciting, man.
Speaker 1: Cool. Well, thanks for coming on the podcav and and
Speaker 1: good luck with everything you're working on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate it, Garrett, and I hope
Speaker 2: we didn't ramble too much for this thing, not at all.
Speaker 2: Time to get excited on some of this stuff.
Speaker 1: So rambling is the brand. Here is the is the goal.
Speaker 2: Scrambled egg.
Speaker 1: That's quite good, the rambled egg. Let's leave it there.
Speaker 2: Thanks trev cool Man, Thanks appreciate it.
Speaker 1: This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was produced by
Speaker 1: PJ Clark. Thank you, PJ. If you enjoyed this kind
Speaker 1: of deep dive into golf architecture, I can just about
Speaker 1: guarantee that you would like what we're doing in Club TFE.
Speaker 1: A lot of our exclusive content in Club TFE has
Speaker 1: to do with golf courses, in golf course design. We
Speaker 1: have weekly course profiles, which are in depth analyzes of
Speaker 1: what we consider to be very interesting or great golf courses,
Speaker 1: and we also have a weekly feature called Design Notebook,
Speaker 1: which basically keeps you up to date on everything going
Speaker 1: on in the world of golf architecture. Certainly in this
Speaker 1: upcoming Design Notebook, we'll be talking about Trevor Dohmer and
Speaker 1: his work with Tad King and Rob Collins. So again, CLUBTFE,
Speaker 1: the Frida Egg dot Com slash membership, that's where you
Speaker 1: can find out what else we're offering within clubtf is
Speaker 1: not just content, so I think that you should check
Speaker 1: that out and if you do, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you also for listening to this episode, and we'll
Speaker 1: be back again soon with another