1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 2: Two years into Sudan's civil war, the fighting has entered 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: a new phase, with explosions ripping through the Red Sea 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: City Port Sudan. 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: Sudan has been witnessing over the past two years a 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: crime of transgressions over its sovereignty and the unity of 7 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: its land and the security of its citizens. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: The government has blamed the United Arab Emirates for allegedly 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: arming its rival, the Rapid Support Forces, and has cut 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 2: off diplomatic ties with Abu Dhabi. 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: The Security and Defense Council has decided the following first 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: the designation of the United Arab Emirates as an enemy state, second, 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: cutting diplomatic ties with the UAE, Third with during the 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: Sudanese Embassy and Consulate. 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: The UAE strongly denies any involvement, and last week the 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: ICE dismissed a case brought against the UAE by Sudan. 17 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: On this week's Next Africa podcast, we look at what 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: this new round of fighting tells us about the state 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: of the war in Sudan and why the government is 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: blaming the UAE for allegedly arming the RSF. 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: I'm Jennifer's Abasajap and this is the Next Africa Podcast, 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: bringing you one story each week from the continent driving 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 3: the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 3: can provide. Joining me to discuss this this week is 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: Bloomberg Simon Marx, who's based in Nairobi but has been 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 3: following this story very closely. Simon, thank you so much 27 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: for joining us. It's great to have you back on 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 3: the podcast. Let's just start here with a bit of 29 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 3: context before we get into these most recent developments. Tell 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: us about Port Sudan and how strategic this city really is. 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 4: So first and foremost, Port Sudan is a vital entry 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 4: for Sudan. It's also the de facto capital of the country. 33 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 4: Since the war broke out there in twenty twenty three, 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 4: there was no way that the military establishment was going 35 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 4: to stay in Khartoum, capital of Sudan, due to the 36 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 4: fact that place was completely overrun with conflict, and it 37 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 4: has since become really the place where decisions are made 38 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 4: by the Sudanese army. The likes of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, China, Iran, 39 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 4: Russia have all set up diplomatic missions in Port Sudan 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 4: and since the war broke out, have had good relations 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 4: with the military backed government, and it's a vital place 42 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 4: for the country based on the Red Sea, which is 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 4: obviously a choke point for a. 44 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 5: Lot of trade. 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 4: And there's absolutely no way that the country could really 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 4: survive if Port Sudan is shut down. It's already obviously 47 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 4: in a very tricky situation from a humanitarian point of view, 48 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 4: with widespread famine in many parts of the country. 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: So then bring us to what's been happening over the 50 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: past few days. There's quite a bit of accusations that 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 3: are being held back and forth talk about what these 52 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 3: latest attacks mean and what happened. 53 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 4: I think it's important to note that since the outbreak 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 4: of war in early twenty twenty three, Ports Sudan has 55 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 4: remained unscathed from any of the conflict. The Rapid Support Forces, 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 4: which is fighting the army, have not touched this place. 57 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 4: They've been pretty much lobbied by the international community to 58 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 4: take their hands off the city. It's where the UN 59 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 4: have all its agencies, it's where the ministries are based, 60 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 4: and it's where a lot of displaced people from the 61 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: conflict have found some sort of refuge. Both in Port 62 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 4: Sudan and the surrounding area. So it's really that one 63 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 4: last little corner of the country where people can actually 64 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: get work done to try and improve the livelihoods of 65 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 4: Since Sunday of this week, we've seen drone attacks hit 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 4: the city in various locations, and it appears to be 67 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 4: barely targeted, looking towards infrastructure that the army is dependent on, 68 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 4: be it fuel depots or major sites within the port, 69 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 4: the various terminals where the containers are coming in, for example. 70 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 4: So that is basically what's been going on, but as 71 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 4: you say, shrouded in some mystery because the RSF have 72 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 4: not claimed responsibility for these attacks and the Sudanese governments 73 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 4: have blamed the United Arab Emirates for being. 74 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 3: Involved, and Simon, I do want to get to those 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 3: points and maybe some of the proxies behind these attacks 76 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 3: in just a bit, but before that, can we talk 77 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 3: about the RSF and what these you just mentioned. They 78 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 3: are not claiming that they are involved. But does this 79 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: suggest that the conflict is far from over? 80 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 4: I think definitely yes. I mean we've seen various rounds 81 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 4: and phases of this conflict, the latest being a couple 82 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: of months ago. When the army managed to take back 83 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 4: the capital Cartoon from the RSF, which had controlled the 84 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 4: capital basically since the beginning of the conflict. And there's 85 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 4: been several rounds of peace talks, both in Europe and 86 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 4: in the Gulf to try and mediate between the two sides, 87 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 4: but in the end, the two generals spearheading this conflict 88 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 4: have not met face to face, and so really it's 89 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 4: just continued to escalate in different corners of the country 90 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 4: and now we're really homing in on the real center 91 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 4: of power of the army, which no one thought was 92 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 4: going to happen. I don't think this had remained a 93 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 4: sort of unwritten rule that the conflict it would not 94 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 4: come to this part of Sudan. 95 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 3: Does it signal that the RSF, though potentially or both 96 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: both the army and the RSF, are still quite strong 97 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: in this conflict, and as you mentioned, are not willing 98 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: to back down. 99 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 5: I think so. 100 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 4: But it also represents a slight shift in military tactics 101 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 4: from the RSF, which have been very reliant on ground forces, 102 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:30,679 Speaker 4: heavily mobile units, often traveling using Toyota high luxters around 103 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 4: especially western parts of Duff Or where they know the 104 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 4: terrain very well an artillery, and I think more and 105 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: more as this conflict has moved forward, they've become more 106 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 4: dependent on drone technology to achieve their objectives. There's no way, 107 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 4: really they were going to get soldiers to pource you 108 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 4: down just due to the terrain there. It's very flat 109 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 4: leading to the coast and the army are defending it 110 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 4: very well, and so these drones obviously give it that 111 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 4: strategic advantage where they can just fly in quickly undercover 112 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 4: and take out key infrastructure sites such as the port 113 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 4: and the fuel depots, etc. 114 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: Stick with us, Simon when we come back. We're going 115 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: to dig into this turning point as you mentioned in 116 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: the conflict, and more about what you were alluding to earlier, 117 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 3: who's potentially supporting the rival sides, and what attempts there 118 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: are two broker piece deal. We'll be right back. 119 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: Welcome back. 120 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: Today. We're talking about the Sudanese Civil War as new 121 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 3: explosions rip through the Red Sea city of Port Sudan. 122 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: Our reporter Simon Marx is still with us and has 123 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: been covering this story. The Sudanese government is blaming the 124 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: UAE for allegedly arming the RSF what evidence is there 125 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 3: that this is the case, though. 126 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 5: Well, since the beginning of the conflict, you've had a 127 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 5: number of outfits investigate these claims, including investigators working for 128 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 5: the UN who released a report last. 129 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 4: Year where they said that ever that the UAE were 130 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 4: backing the RSF is quote unquote credible. They have used 131 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 4: a whole host of different elements to back that up, 132 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 4: including like data, including sources on the ground, particularly in 133 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 4: Chad and Darfur, who are telling them that flights have 134 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: come in from the UAE and other countries also with 135 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 4: military equipment allegedly from the United Arab Emirates, but Abu 136 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 4: Dhabi has repeatedly denied this and said they don't back 137 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 4: any side. It's very difficult obviously to track weapons deliveries, 138 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 4: especially when third parties are involved, companies traffickers, so that 139 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 4: the debate is ongoing. However, UN investigators, the European Union, Amnesty, International, 140 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 4: top US politicians, and also many of my diplomatic and 141 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 4: international intelligence sources all say that the United Arab Emirates 142 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 4: point during this war did help facilitate bring arms to 143 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 4: the rss That's, of course, something Abu Dhabi sternly denies 144 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 4: and has repeatedly pointed out is not true. 145 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 3: Considering all of this, Simon and all of the various 146 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: players that may or may not reportedly be involved, what 147 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: does this mean for peace talks and ultimately what does 148 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 3: this mean for the Sudanese people and the humanitarian crisis 149 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: that is already the situation at this point. 150 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 4: Well, as we speak, there are efforts once again for 151 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 4: the unpteethed time from the Saudi Arabia and the US 152 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 4: to try and get peace talks back on the road again. 153 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 4: They've so far proved quite infamous. A lot of people 154 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 4: expected to change in tactics under the new Trump administration 155 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: and the officials that he's appointed. So far though we've 156 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 4: not seen a huge amount of focused actually from the US. Obviously, 157 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 4: things have been very focused. 158 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 5: On Ukraine, on Israel. 159 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: Gaza, and even the Democratic Republic of Congo with a 160 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 4: potential minerals deal. So the focused honestly on Sudan has 161 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 4: once again fallen by the wayside to some extent, and 162 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 4: really it's anyone's guess when one of these sides will 163 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 4: realize that the game's up. But if proxies continue to 164 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 4: fuel it, it could honestly go on and. 165 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: On and on, Yeah, which means for the people on 166 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 3: the ground, it's even more and more dire of a situation. Yeah. 167 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 168 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 5: I think the number of areas under famine according to 169 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 5: the UN, there. 170 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: Was ten regions last month and that's expected to almost 171 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 4: double to seventeen in just a few weeks. 172 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 5: So it's extremely dire. 173 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 4: And you know, access for humanitarians journalists is pretty limited, 174 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 4: especially in the west of the country where there's a 175 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 4: lot of conflict, so the public aren't even being exposed 176 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 4: to really die a situation to put pressure on the 177 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 4: generals to stop this war. 178 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: And you can read more of our reporting on Sudan 179 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: on Bloomberg platforms right now. Here's some of the other 180 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: stories we've been following across the region this week. South 181 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 3: African President Sira Ramaposa has unveiled the second phase of 182 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 3: a reform program aimed at firing up an economy that's 183 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: grown by an average of less than one percent annually 184 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 3: over the past decade, and Nigerian senators on Wednesday backed 185 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: four tax bills that are part of President bullet To 186 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 3: Naboo's efforts to lift government revenue, but join lawmakers in 187 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: the Lower National Assembly in rejecting his plan to increase 188 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 3: the value added tax rate. You can follow these stories 189 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 3: across Bloomberg platforms, including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put 190 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 3: a link to that in the show notes. This program 191 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't forget 192 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: to follow and review this show wherever you usually get 193 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: your podcasts, But for now, I'm Jennifer Zabasanja. Thanks as 194 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 3: always for listening.