WEBVTT - Splitting a Chocolate Cake w/ Dr. Kathleen Merrigan 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.400 Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:07.080 then once I got in Tom, I got hooked. U 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:09.240 s c A is such a huge place, as we 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.160 were describing, So you've got every person, every kind of 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.120 walk of life there, and to me, it's a really 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:19.239 interesting puzzle. How do you motivate and move forward to 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:25.880 bureaucracy that complex, that large, that geographically disperse and get 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:33.960 important things done. I like teasing out that problem. Welcome 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:36.880 back to Citisen Chef. This season, we're gonna really start 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.080 of digging into not just where you get your food, 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.919 but how these processes are regulated. There's this big thing 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:45.720 out there called the U. S d A. And I 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.920 think they have a budget of about a hundred fifty 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.080 sixty billion dollars and I think there's about a hundred 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.840 and fifty thousand employees. And this is this big, giant 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.960 governmental entity that regulates pretty much everything that we eat. 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.160 But I don't I don't think a whole lot of 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:04.920 people understand what the U. S d A does, why 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.440 they're there. But if you eat it, most likely the U. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.440 S d A regulates it. I thought the best person 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.960 to talk to about this was my friend Kathleen Merrigan. So, 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.920 Kathleen A. Merigan was the U S Deputy Secretary Agriculture 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.960 from two thousand nine two thirteen, and she is now 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.280 the executive director at the Sweat Center for Sustainable Food 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:28.960 Systems at the Arizona State University. She also started to 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.800 Know Your Farmer campaign and was also instrumental in working 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:35.679 with Michelle Obama on the Let's Move campaign. She's someone 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.000 who I lean on to get the sort of real 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.160 deep policy answers that I'm looking for. So I think 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.720 we're gonna ask some questions that include chocolate cake. But 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.320 more on that later. So please welcome Kathleen Merrigan. Kathleen, 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.880 how you doing things? Are great? Trying to tort your 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:58.520 young minds, that's my They are really interested in filth policy, 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.560 and we we're got to change the faces around the 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:04.560 table if we want to change policy. Tom, that's my mission. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:07.520 I hear you. My son is graduating very soon with 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:12.360 a degree in food policy. Yeah. So the USDA, all right, 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.680 I've got all kinds of fun facts for you about 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:19.320 us Well good. I mean, it's this massive governmental body, 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:24.200 the hundred and ten thousand employees, The budget is over 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.680 a hundred and fifty billion dollars a year. I think 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.960 for ten thou short right now, jobs that are available. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:31.799 Anybody listening, they want to job the U s d 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.840 A apply, they need you. And we describe U s 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.200 t A as a field based agency, meaning most of 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:42.480 the employees are scattered about the States and in fact 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.320 in countries around the world because most of our foreign 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:52.639 embassies have egg specialists. They're feeding back intelligence to USDA 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.040 about what's going on around food and agriculture and country X, 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:58.960 Y and z. So it's a massive operation. But it's 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.520 this massive, this massive government organization, and yet I don't 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.080 think the average person has a clue as to what 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.519 the U s d A does and why they should 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.320 care about what the U s d A does. We 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.800 thought it'd be great to kick off our second season 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.440 with a permit on the U s d A and 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.800 what it does. And with that, why should the average 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:19.400 person care about the USDA? What do they need to 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.640 know about the USDA? Well, the USDA is the fifth 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.600 largest government agency. The Secretary of Agriculture is ninth in 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.080 line to succession of the President, and that's because USA 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:34.240 was the ninth federal government department established first of all, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.240 if you're a taxpayer. I hope I got your attention 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.120 with some of those numbers. That's one reason to be 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:43.600 paying attention. The second reason is if you're a person 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.600 in rural America, the U. S d A is your 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.920 home in the federal government because so many of their 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.560 programs are oriented to rural Americans. A lot of the 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.840 programs have eligibility requirements that make it so that the 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.160 smallest of commune today's our first in line for the 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.840 largest that USDA has to offer. So if I'm sitting 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.560 there in rural Kansas, I'm listening to this podcast just 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.280 because I stumbled upon it, and now someone's telling me 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.119 I should care about certain policies. What are they? Well, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.000 like most people think about U. S c A, and 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.760 they connected right away to farmers and ranchers. Yes, US 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:22.960 does a lot with farmers and ranchers. But if you're 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.720 in a small town, you might be getting money from U. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.279 S c A to help buy an ambulance or a 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.000 police car. You might be getting money wait, wait, money 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.760 from the US to buy a police car or an ambulance. Yes. Yes, Um, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:42.719 they help with telemedicine, hospital construction, a lot of rural housing. Um. 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.520 Money A loans come from U. S d A. I 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:52.000 know in the Biden announcement about the infrastructure legislation, there's 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.800 promise of a lot of money for rural I'm just 0:04:55.920 --> 0:05:00.960 generally water um infrastructure because of leaded pipe, and I 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.479 think in the current proposal most of that money goes 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:05.840 to E p A. But U s C as in 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:08.520 that business too. They do a lot to help small 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:13.520 communities construct water and wastewater systems. They've been involved over 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:17.520 decades in the electrification of America. You might say that's 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:21.160 work that's been done, but I live here in Arizona, 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:26.120 just close by to the Navajo Nation, which crosses many states. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.240 There's still still fifty thousand homes a Navajo Nation without 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:33.920 running water electricity, which is one of the reasons why 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:38.760 the COVID pandemic was so severe. There was an agency 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.400 that large. If you break it up in the smaller parts, 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.720 and would that make sense our our uh? I mean, 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.520 I'm sure if you're the secretary secretary culture wouldnt want 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.320 to do that. But um, would that make sense at all? No? 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.720 I don't think so, because there are individual agencies within U. 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.760 S d A with individual mandates. If you're trying to reorganize, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.160 you're already setting up battles. You have to get a 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.840 lot of new legislation passed, and I say, work with 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:10.000 what you have and use the time efficiently, because by 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:14.000 the time all those reorgs happened, I've been I'm old Tom, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.599 I've been through many I think by the time you 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:23.799 redo all the stationary reorganize everybody's job titles, move the furniture. 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:25.920 I don't know if it makes a big difference. And 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:27.720 what are some of the agencies that are within the 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:33.000 USDA that soup This is real, This is a real 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.640 temptation for me to go on for multiple hours. The 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.200 biggest agency at U s c A is the Forest Service. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:41.359 A lot of people think that's in the Department of 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.200 Interior where the park services, but actually usc A has 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.880 a for services about thirty five employees, and of course 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.480 the last few years have been very involved in wildfire 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:57.640 control forest management. Many people who go skiing on private 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.559 resort mountains don't realize that that may be Forest Service land. 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.640 And the Forest Service actually has an office in New 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:06.920 York City for those of you in the big city 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.240 where they're looking at trees and urban settings. So it's 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.760 not just out in the countryside. The U s A 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.160 has a food Safety inspection service. We have four agencies 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.040 at U s c A that do research. We have 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.160 research labs across the country and every five years, one 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.320 of my favorite things, because I'm a nerd U s 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.840 c A, has a Census of Agriculture. We do account 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.560 of all farmers and ranchers in the country and learn 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:37.240 a lot about their operations, all publicly available information. If 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:39.760 my memory serves me, you, you were the one who 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.520 started to know your farmer program. When I was asked 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.280 to do that by Secretary will Sack. Most people immediately 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.880 wanted there to be a staff in an office and 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:54.120 have a house somewhere. And my view was every agency 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.040 at U s d A should find a home for 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.480 local and regional agriculture. And I didn't want to just 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.240 put it in one place, but I wanted to challenge 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.880 every single part of us DA to stand tall and 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.880 do something important. And in fact, all of the seventeen 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.920 agencies of us DA came forward with really significant programs. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:19.320 For example, the Natural Resources Conservation Service that helps and 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:24.560 send farmers to do environmental practices on their land. They 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.680 came forward with a hoop house initiative seasonal high tunnel 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.200 way for farmers to extend their growing season. That was 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:35.920 wildly popular and the biggest uptake state was Wisconsin. Also 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:39.240 followed close on the hills by Alaska. We're having that 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.560 ability to extend the growing season actually significantly changed lives. 0:08:44.880 --> 0:09:00.160 We'll be right back, welcome back to citizenship. We will 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:03.000 have a lot of questions about our food and how 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.480 we ast consumers can better understand systems in place that 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.280 get that food to us. Kathleen Merrigan, I think is 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.599 the perfect person to demystify what the U. S d 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:19.360 A does and why we should care. So far, you 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.280 talked about forestry, you talked about ranchers, you talked about farmers. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.800 We haven't heard about what's in it for the people. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.600 How does the average person how do they engage with 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.000 the U s d A. Where do they see it? 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:32.920 Obviously in their taxes they see it, But where do 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:35.040 they see it in the supermarket? Where do they see 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.960 it in the grocery store? How does it affect them? Now? 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:41.560 I know I think that the overwhelming largest part of 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:44.080 the budget goes to SNAP is that is that correct? 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.560 At least more than half, and I was Deputy secretary 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:53.160 in ten it was at the high point and we 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:57.120 were feeding about forty nine million people through the Supplemental 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:01.320 Nutrition Assistance Program SNAP. Now it's much more because of 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:06.000 the widespread unemployment and chaos in our economy. What's really 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.800 nice is when the federal government provides SNAP benefits in 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:15.160 times of economic distress, people immediately spend that money and 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:18.760 it stimulates the economy more effectively than anything else. We know. 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.760 It's a it's like a shovel ready stimulus program, but yes, 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:24.640 SNAP is the biggest part of the u s d 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:29.040 a's budget. Overall nutrition assistance is about eight percent these 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.440 days of us das budgets. Too often family will use 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.320 those dollars to buy the cheapest foods possible. And so 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.360 that leads me to ask, how can the U s 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.439 d A make nutritious foods more fordable, more accessible outside 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:44.640 of the double Bucks program where you can use your 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.480 food stamps and the farmers market and get a token 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:49.360 for double the money that you spent there. As much 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.760 as I'm a big USDA and federal government champion, change 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.400 happens outside of Metro d C, and it eventually makes 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.720 it to the halls of power there, and it's really 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.160 great that we have a situation where we have a 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:05.520 farm bill every five years or so, and some of 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.240 the innovations that we see out in the field can 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.960 become national policy. And you give a good example with 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:16.079 a double ups program. Um, you know, the SNAP program 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.199 is probably the money that people get is too little, 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.319 and that makes um, they're getting more now, They're getting 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:26.000 a little more, a little bit more now. But I 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.080 think people are ready to reassess the Thrifty Food Plan, 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.280 which is his analysis in the background that helps determine 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.560 what the snap amount of money should be to allow 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.760 people to eat a diet consistent with the dietary guidelines 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.600 for Americans, which is also something that US AND has 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.000 involved in. Right. It's also used for things like to 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.720 calculate alimony and also to calculate the amount of calories 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.160 that members of the services I should receive as well. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.280 So it's not just for snaps, that's right. There are 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.640 a lot of issues around food access. People get very 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:00.559 focused on the cost of food it. I just want 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.240 to say, you know, we need to put more money 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.840 into it. But food access is something that we know 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.320 is really difficult. So if I don't have a car 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.199 and taking public transport and maybe doing two jobs, I 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.839 might be a single mom. You know, I'm going to 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.600 get all processed food because I can't afford to buy 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.280 fresh food because I can't take that time out of 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.120 my month multiple times. So there are a lot of 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:29.760 different factors that play in. It's a complex problem to solve, 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.200 but we definitely need to get more nutritious food to people. 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:37.560 And when people start talking about the budget problem, I 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.480 just look at what we spend as a nation on 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.000 healthcare costs, and I say, can't we think more in 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.280 a preventative health way and understand food as medicine? And 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:50.520 if we do, wouldn't we um put on our green 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.439 eye shades and see things totally differently? I think so right. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:56.520 I think the numbers, well, it was a couple of 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.199 years back about two billion dollars a year on healthcare 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:03.440 costs associated poor diet and pornutrition. So yeah, you think 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.480 um our our friend Jim McGovern, he's been asking for 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.000 this for a long time. I think the voices are 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.760 starting to be raised. I think also Senator Booker is 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.079 starting to ask for as well. And that is a 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.560 White House summit on hunger, which we haven't seen since 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.640 the Nixon administration. Um, what what policies do you think 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.440 come out of a summit on hunger? It's against a 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.560 three day summit where you will take people from across 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:33.440 the spectrum through different agencies making recommendations. What what kind 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.920 of policies can come out of a three three day 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.080 session on hunger that can really help Americans? Well, I 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.040 think in the year that we've had, the last year 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.360 and a half, where we've had this national reckoning with 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.880 our really sword history on racial justice and social equity, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.199 I think I would put those issues front and center 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.679 and and we really know that this pandemic is just 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:01.720 another exclamation point at the end of the sentence that 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.400 things are not fair and people are not equally able 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.199 to survive hardship, And so I would I would probably 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.439 put that lens on everything I do. Want to say. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.840 Jim McGovern is just about my favorite person in the world. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:20.080 What a champion for everything good in the world. He's 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.480 the foremost champion of snap in Congress. Of course, he's 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.440 got a lot of help with Rosa de Laura and others, 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.800 and Corey Booker putting out the Justice for Black Farmers 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.880 Act really impressive um reintroduced this year with a lot 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.880 of co sponsors, a lot of them on the Semi 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.400 Agriculture Committee, really saying we have not treated black farmers well. 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.560 We certainly know from the different lawsuits at U, s 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.320 d A. We haven't treated Native Americans well, we haven't 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:48.840 treated women well. So we've got a lot to reckon 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.960 with a lot of it goes back to equity and justice. 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.440 The calls are pretty strong right now and there's hopefully 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.160 you know, the administration is receptive to it, but it's 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:58.720 it's about time. I think the last time we had 0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:02.280 was I think with likeness to nine are somewhere in there, 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.560 and some some good programs come out. The SNAP program 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.400 was modernized that you know, prior to that you actually 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.000 had to pay into the SNAP program, and so that 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.160 was changed. The RECAS program I think was created after that. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.840 So good policies came out of it, and it worked 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:15.560 for some time until the eighties and then kind of 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.680 we we took a step backwards. And you know, I'm 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.080 loving now that the last a week or so, starting 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:23.640 to hear stories about how there are a fewer people 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:27.120 who are hungry now, because we're actually spending some more money. 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.120 That's that's the point, right, That's that's the that's the 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.160 goal of spending the money so a fewer people are hungry, 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.880 there may be a greater sense of empathy for people 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.000 who are struggling. So I think we have a good 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:39.320 opportunity here. Unfortunately, COVID had to do that. We had 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.800 to wreck our you know, our economy for so many 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.640 people and go through a pandemic to get there. But 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.720 that could be the only one silver lining anyway. And 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.720 this this whole year that we've we've been through, well, 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:53.960 I hope you're I hope you're right about that, Tom. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.520 I know that members of Congress, who are very involved 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:01.840 in hunger issues oftentimes but pretty much annually, issue the 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.520 snap challenge to their colleagues, and they challenge members of 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.760 Congress to live for a week on what would be 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.960 a snap budget. And I've actually gone to the grocery 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.040 store with groups of Congress people as they try to 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.360 shop with their carts with their budget and try to 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:22.480 figure it out. So, yeah, people don't really understand what 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.600 it means to live with food insecurity in this country. 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.680 And I just remember back at the beginning of the 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.040 Obama administration, there was an outbreak of H one N one, 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.320 which was a swine flu, and people um all over 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:39.640 the administration really concerned because schools were closing and they thought, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:41.640 what about all those kids, and they're not going to 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.480 have access to school meals? A very valid concern, But 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:46.760 I said, you know where do you think these kids 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.760 get their meals on the weekends and on school vacations 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.120 and in the summers. So we have a lot of 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.360 work to do to make sure children, in particular have 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:02.280 access to the nutrition they need to become successful adults 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:08.960 and contributors to society. We'll be back with more Citizen Chef. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.280 I'm Tom Clokio and I'm talking with my friend Kathleen Merrigan, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:23.080 the former Deputy Secretary and Agriculture from two thousand. How 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.480 How did you? How did you end up in the 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.600 usb A? How does one end up as the the 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:32.280 number two in this huge agency? Overall in the federal 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:36.840 government there about four thousand political appointees and of that number, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.960 probably about two fifty or at U s d A, 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.480 so not a lot of people, and probably of that 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:47.399 number is somewhat less than fifteen. I have to go 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.720 through Senate confirmation as I did. So how did I 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.440 get that job? I ran a little campaign for myself. 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.400 I suppose you don't get those jobs because you're sitting 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.200 in your office waiting for the phone to ring. Kathleen 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.040 is an advocate for organic farming. She in fact wrote 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.760 the organic bill. So when I was nominated to BC 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.720 Secretary of Agriculture, for example, people said, Merrigan, she's from 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.240 Massachusetts and that's not a big act state. She wrote 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:18.320 the organic law. That's not mainstream egg, and she's female. Um, 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.680 it was mostly a male dominated sport. In other words, 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.200 that wasn't the trifecta tom ha ha. Though I'd say 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.520 I was at a school at toss Up Graduate School 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.960 of Nutrition, Science and Policy, and I said, but I 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.679 got the nutrition part, and that that's a bulk of 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.359 what usd A resources spent on. I hate the words ours, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.639 But do you think we need foods? Are this idea 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.640 that we need someone who's focused more on food? Well, 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:49.320 first of all, we probably need a zarina. So I 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.200 think that the calls for having a foods are are 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.320 positive because to me, it reflects the American public's growing 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.880 interests in food. Where As my food come from who 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.040 produced it? Why should I care? I think that this call, 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.240 which I know in part our friend Jose Andrea's has led, 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:12.639 this call for a senior person in the White House 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:17.240 to lead a national conversation, is all indication that we're 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:20.000 going in the right direction. At what point of your 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:21.840 like to did you say, well, this is where, this 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.520 is where my interests are. What sort of got you there? 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.639 Why would I want to go to U. S d A. 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.080 I used to think of it as the evil Empire, honestly, 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.600 and I was always an advocate on the outside fighting 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.879 for truth justice in the American way. As suppose if 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.720 if you asked me at the time, and when I 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:45.680 was maternity leave with my first child, my nonprofit decided 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.199 to go under in a way, and I did the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.000 thing I never expected to do. I went to U. 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.359 S c A And asked for a job. And the 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.600 Deputy secretary at the time, Rich Rominger, was a friend, 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:58.800 someone I knew for a million years with working with 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.440 American family and try, and he put me in the 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.399 job as the Agricultural Marketing Service Administrator the last two 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:11.240 years of Clinton to oversee the rulemaking on organic food standards, 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:18.000 among other things I do believe as complex and large 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.280 as U. S. D A is that many other federal 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.400 departments have a role to play in food. The Centers 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.879 for Disease Control and all their work on obesity within 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:33.000 Health and Human Services. The Department of Labor has job 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:38.480 courts centers where they helped train people in culinary arts 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.959 and forest service. The v A. Can you imagine if 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.480 we got all the hospitals of the Veterans Administration to 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.240 serve organic or local and regional or better yet organic 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.120 local food. What kind of massive change would that mean? 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.359 It would be huge. It's not just a snap program. 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.280 It's the women isn't children program with It's the school 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.480 meals program, which is not just lunch anymore, but it's breakfast. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.320 It's backpack programs on the weekends. In some cases, it's 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.159 summer programs. All of those kind of programs that need 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.400 to be extended because we know there are families who 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:16.480 are in hunger. I can go through the whole alphabet 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.600 suit beyond U. S c A of these other federal 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.960 departments and say, hey, what can you do to help 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:25.880 transform our food system? So to me, that argues for 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:31.200 someone in the White House to be trying to pull 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:40.000 the various strings together to help out. So one thing, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:43.440 one thing I have to ask you about talk. Yeah, So, Tom, 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.240 I have all my graduate students play this game, so 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.040 to speak. It comes from Deborah Stone in a book 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.840 that she wrote, Policy Paradox. It's really an exercise in 0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:58.040 trying to understand what is fair. People think fair means equal, No, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.200 not necessarily, or that fair is easy to define. Not really. 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:04.400 So I would come to class with a very small 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:09.000 chocolate cake, and I'd say, how should we divide this cake? 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.199 What's the most fair proposal? And we'll vote on it, 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.679 and I'd break people up in the small groups, and 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:18.320 people will come back with ideas like, well, well, divided 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.879 up by body mass index, and so we won't overload 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.160 the obese among us, or we'll figure out who didn't 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.520 have lunch, so they're they're probably the most hungry. We'll 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.480 figure it out in various ways, all kinds of fair ways. 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.560 But this is the kicker, Tom. In all the years 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:39.359 that I have been using this exercise, only once or 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.119 twice has a group of students come up with a 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.040 proposal that said, let's share the cake with people outside 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:50.040 of the room and I'd say, what about the security guard. 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:52.000 He makes us safe at the front of the building. 0:22:52.000 --> 0:22:55.720 What about the homeless people outside our building in Chinatown? 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.480 What about the kids down the block in the elementary 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:04.359 school who may not have sufficient school meals? To me, 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.280 it was a really important policy lesson and it said 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.160 to me, unless we change the faces around the decision 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:16.760 making table to better reflected demographics of this country, why 0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.480 do we think that things are going to change because 0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:23.440