WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 130 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.600 A media Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.639 to let you know this is a compilation episode. So 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:12.160 every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.119 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.320 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:20.840 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.600 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.320 This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. The 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.600 past few years, we have regularly covered the rise of 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:39.720 legislation that restricts access to public space and medical care 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.000 for trans people in the United States, as well as 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:47.240 attempts by politicians, lobbying groups, and media personalities to drum 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.960 up transphobia in hopes of quote unquote eliminating transgenderism from 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:59.800 our society and culture. The quest to eliminate transgenderism includes harassment, 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:04.280 care campaigns targeted against specific individuals, boycotting companies that feature 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:07.800 trans people in their marketing, and banning queer books, media, 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:12.360 and art from libraries across the country. The conservative right 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.080 has decided that the boogeyman of gender ideology and the 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.160 woke mind virus is one of the most pressing threats 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:25.880 to Western civilization. This brand of transphobic militancy opposes any 0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:29.520 form of visible queerness, viewing it as an ideology that 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:34.240 acts as a viral cultural contagion. That's why they spend 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:36.880 so much time trying to ban drag shows and art 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.520 featuring queer people. They know they're losing the cultural battle 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.800 and that really scares them. As trans people have been 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.840 trying to weather this huge wave of organized transphobia, Trans 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:51.280 and queer artists continue to push forward, with multiple hit 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:54.680 films coming out this year from trans directors and transactors 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:57.680 and actresses are taking more and more high profile roles. 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:02.160 Last episode, I interviewed comedian Ella Yerman and filmmaker Ver 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:06.640 Drew on the process of creating independent queer media. This 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.200 episode will focus on why we are seeing this new 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:13.120 wave of queer art, why mere representation isn't enough, and 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.640 attempts to go beyond the online media ecosystem. Ellie Yerman 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.080 is the host of Late Stage Lives, a Queer gen 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:22.920 Z public access late night show on Brooklyn Public Access 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.960 and YouTube. The format of late night comedy is almost 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.239 wholly dominated by old white, sis straight men. Late Stage 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.320 Live attempts to deconstruct the genre in which it aligns 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:39.280 itself with, utilizing sketches, correspondence segments, and original reporting, but 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:44.000 for a younger, queerer, more politically radical audience. The show 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.800 is not just made for gen Z queers. It's also 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.200 made by an entire team of young, queer and trans people, 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:53.440 which gives it a very unique feel compared to literally 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:57.480 all of its competition. The show itself feels queer and 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:02.639 highlights the massive gap between simple queer representation and queer art, 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.200 or in this case, queer late night comedy. There's a 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.000 palpable distinction between hiring a gay person to work on 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.280 seth Myers versus having a late night show that is 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:16.080 built on queerness. On that note, here's a clip from 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.800 my interview with Ella Yeerman, host of Late Stage Live. 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:23.040 There's like a huge difference between like the token queer 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:29.560 writer and like a show that centers queerness and transness. 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.280 And I'm really proud of of that. As in terms 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:35.280 of our show, like, I think that's one of its 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:39.600 main drives is how queer focused. It is something we 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.680 talk about in every episode, in every piece. Reid loves 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:44.920 to hammer this home is sort of the question of 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.320 why us. It's the first question we ask when anyone 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.440 pitches any segment or piece or story of the question 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.000 is like, what's the game, what's the perspective? And then 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:57.800 why is it us delivering this perspective? Because anyone can 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.960 write a piece of political analysis, lots of people do, 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.800 but like, what about this story is uniquely coming from us, 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.360 uniquely coming from the host ella, from the writer's room. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:11.920 And I think we found it most strongly in the 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:14.480 last two pieces, the Lives of Stickock piece, and then 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:16.600 the episode before that, we did a segment on the 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:22.600 Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a spooky, evil conservative cabal 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.520 that trains lawyers to overturn Scotis cases. And I think 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.520 those both found felt really focused in on sort of 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.280 us as young queer people. And I think the gen 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.800 Z part is also really relevant for us. A lot 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.600 of Late Night is hosted by old men, and as 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.400 much as I love John Stewart, he is an old man, 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.360 an old sis, white man, an old sis, as far 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.480 as I know, heterosexual white man. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.400 Who already left the job ten years ago. 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.360 And he already left it right, and he's back now, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.560 but like what does that say about anything? 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:55.159 Yeah? 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.240 Yeah, and everyone talking about politics is like old white guys, 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.640 and everyone in Congress is old white guys or George Santos, 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.360 And there's like this sense of like the world is ending, 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.599 as you probably know on this show that bills itself 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.640 as like amidst the collapse or whatever your tagline is. 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:16.440 But like gen Z is so. 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:20.640 Uniquely affected by political goings on in a way that 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.679 I say this is true of every general, every youngest generation, 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.520 that like all of the decisions are impacting us most, 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.240 but it feels more urgent these days because the world 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.760 is ending with climate change and with the encroaching you know, 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.160 global fascism, and with the decay of late stage capitalism, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:41.000 that it feels so important now more than ever to 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:46.360 like center those experiences and look at how the world 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.559 and the news and politics impacts these groups of people. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.200 And the way we achieve that is, Yeah, we don't 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:53.520 just have one token queer writer. 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:54.039 We are. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.960 Our room is all queer, largely trans About half of 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.880 our writer's room is non one, and as we grow, 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.839 that number will either stay the same or get bigger, 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.880 certainly not smaller. Yeah, At the end of the day, 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:12.200 I think the fact that the room is completely queer 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:18.120 and predominantly trans and non white and all young, it 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.400 just like sort of happens, And the fact that it 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:21.920 started that way and has been built from the ground 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.200 up that way, I think gives us a huge edge. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.080 Even if the daily shows fired all of their writers 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.040 and hired only trans people, I think it would be 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.159 a hard pivot to get the show to suddenly be 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.160 doing what we're doing, just because the whole structure is 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:36.960 built differently. 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.239 In Vera Drew's new movie The People's Joker, an autobiographical 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.120 transgender coming of age parody set in the Batman universe, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.120 the shallowness of queer representation is actually one of the 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:51.320 core themes of the film. In the movie, the main 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.080 character is not satisfied by simply being a token diversity 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:58.839 higher for a late night comedy show, and instead hijacks 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.960 the airwaves and charts her own path. This plotline, like 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.919 many others, mirrors the director's own life, and the movie 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.720 itself is a perfect example of how creating a piece 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.480 of art inherently built on a multimedia experience of queerness 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.480 will produce a wildly different result. Than simply having a 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.720 gay person in the writer's room. Here's a clip from 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.840 my interview with Vera Drew. It's not even that I 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:29.520 feel like queer representation is like too straight or cist. 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:34.640 It's just not even like an accurate reflection of queer reality. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.680 You know, Like every gay couple I know is nothing 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:39.880 like a straight couple. I mean some of them are, 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.400 but like those those gay couples always break up, like 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.960 it's like they're just they're just in you know, reenacting 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.680 cycles and thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal bullshit 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:52.920 on each other when they could just be having hot 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.920 gay sacks with each other. And like that to me 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.680 is like the biggest tragedy of like representation. And it's 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.560 like is also why I think people lash out at 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.320 us so much. Like I on one level, I understand 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:10.600 the idea of like this is getting shoved down our throats, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.600 you know, because like it kind of is that's coming 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.320 from a place that I sort of agree with, because 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.400 they're getting sold this like propaganda that it's like they're 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.240 just like us, you know, and like to me, it's 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:26.800 like my experience is so specific to me and so 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.960 specific to you know, like the experience of a trans woman. 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.240 There are things about my life that are similar to 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.800 that of assis woman but not certainly not identical. So 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.960 like I never want to see art that is that. 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.960 I also, I'm like really over trans people being used 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.120 in a way that they're either I mean, it doesn't 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.360 really happen anymore where they're like treated like freaks, but 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:55.600 like it's kind of the tragedy porn or kind of 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:00.079 pedestalizing us. I guess, like I hate that, like my 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:06.320 identity is inherently political, like just because I I this 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.000 is who I am, Like I it's not a pleasant 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.800 situation to deal with. So I think with joker, Yeah, 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:16.200 I want people joker, I really wanted to talk about 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.160 representation in a way that also just wasn't annoying because 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.640 like I also, it's not even that I'm tired of 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.360 having this conversation. It's just sad that people like us 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.920 keep men having to have this kind of conversation because 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:32.280 like I've also heard it now within our own community 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:36.160 that like you know, I've heard other trans filmmakers say 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.480 like we should only be telling happy stories, we should 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.679 only be spreading queer joy or what absolutely not No, absolutely, 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:50.040 not like it's that's embarrassing. Yeah, I want I want 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.160 to spread queer panic. I want to it's not even panic, 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:58.920 just like queer existential uh horror, I suppose I don't know. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.160 Well, I mean for me, it's like I don't know, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.040 like because I've gotten shipped to not I haven't gotten 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.600 a lot. And now honestly that I've started mentioning in 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.240 the press, people have said it to me as much 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.679 just good, but like I was getting a little bit 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.359 of the like how oh making the joker a murderous 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:17.199 trans woman? 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:18.840 Okay, you know please? 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.240 First of all, like villains are queer coded the history 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.720 of film, Oh, almost all of the bad villains are 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:30.080 queer coded except completely, And like why can't so why 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:32.320 can't a why can't we do it like not in 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.640 a subtext way? Why can't we just do it directly? 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.520 And then also like I live in a country that 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.640 villainizes trans people, so like why can't I process that 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:47.240 very thing by making myself a queer villain in a 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:50.240 in a movie that I made? And and I don't know, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.480 it's like I think what I hate about the queer 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.280 joy thing and the like the people's Joker is like 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:01.680 a very funny movie. It's very pel it's very campy, 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.120 but it's also like devastating, you know, like it's it's 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.240 got a very serious message to it that I think 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:11.800 it brings up a lot of emotion in people when 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.240 they watch it, both SIS people and trans people, And 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:17.160 you know, I think that speaks to something else, just 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.760 like about representation is like I told this story that 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:26.160 was so specific to my experience, and like trans people 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.320 are identifying with it and relating to it, but so 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.320 are CIS people, you know, Like yes, like you know, 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.439 we should be telling stories that portray the trans experience 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:41.560 honestly or the queer experience honestly and specifically. And if 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.880 we do that, like if we do that effectively, that 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.480 is still art that a SIS person can consume because 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.959 SIS people also go through transitions. SIS people also have 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.440 to die and be reborn sometimes, and like I think 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.120 just everybody kind of comes of age. It's just like 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.040 trans people and we were people kind of have to 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.679 do it more visibly and publicly and externally a lot 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.480 of the times. And and uh, I don't know, for me, 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.840 it's like that was like another reason too of like 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.480 of just being like no, like we're gonna get this 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.640 out into theaters and and you know, like make this 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:24.160 kind of theatrical experience before anything else. You know, it 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:27.040 was always made made to be like viewed, I think 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.440 with like a crowd of people like yeah, yeah, kind 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:31.720 of like a midnight movie vibe. 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:33.959 I guess when you think about it, Jesus and the 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.000 Joker I do have a lot in common in terms 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.720 of getting baptized, getting bored again. It's it's really very 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:40.880 similar characters. 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.679 Absolutely, And I mean that's why, uh, because I think 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:47.000 this was something while Brie and I were writing the 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.680 movie that she was constantly every step of the way 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:52.960 like what are you doing, like why are you bringing 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.240 this much like gnostic Christianity to this? 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:56.479 Absolutely? 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.680 Uh? Like I I remember, you know, there's this like 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.080 French song that's in the movie called I'll Be Your 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.680 Joker that's composed and performed by Emily Sloan, and the 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:13.280 lyrics to that are a poem that I wrote that 0:13:13.520 --> 0:13:14.760 are just. 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.840 You never like it's not in anywhere in the movie. 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.400 It's just in that song. But it's like this, it's 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:23.520 the people's joker prophecy, Like I actually wrote it in 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.440 this like kind of Gnostic Bible structure, and then we 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.880 translated it to French and recorded it as a song 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.600 and like that was like really kind of coming from 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.760 that place of like just really I love I mean, 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.520 I'm obsessed with Jesus uh, and I kind of just 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.920 always have have been, Like I was raised Catholic and 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:47.160 I just I'm I'm not Christian, but I have a 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.040 lot of Jesus stuff around my house. Like I'm I'm 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:55.319 just obsessed with like the iconography and really love it 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.320 the story itself as like a myth and like the 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:03.360 mythic understanding of of death and rebirth, and also just 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.800 thinking of it as like another example of like the 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:12.160 hero's journey. And I don't know, like it's somebody asked 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.880 me at a Q and A like how basically like 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:16.640 how do you have the balls to like cause by 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.000 the end of the People's Joker, like you basically find 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.080 out it's like cut it is like Dune. There's like 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.920 a weird Messiah story happening, And that partially just comes 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.840 from like I think for me, queerness is inherently like 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.400 a very spiritual experience. It just has been for me, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.440 and I think a lot of trans people actually deal 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.720 with Messiah complexes. I think it's something that I feel 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.880 safe saying I have, and I also really wanted to 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:49.320 unpack that just idea of the like Joseph Campbell White 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.640 Savior Hero's journey thing. 0:14:52.320 --> 0:15:05.800 It could happen here. We'll return after these messages we 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.120 now return to it could happen here. During my interview 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.960 with Vera Drew, she mentioned it something about not just 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.240 wanting to throw the movie up on YouTube when the 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.320 film is dealing with legal issues resulting in uncertainty around 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.160 how the film would be released, And that got me 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:26.000 thinking about queer people's relationship to platforms like YouTube as 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.880 the sort of default way of sharing video art. A 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.680 big reason why is simply because the platform is so 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.040 accessible without many of the hurdles and roadblocks of more 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.400 traditional distribution models. But sometimes I worry that it's become 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.320 so default that our reliance on YouTube has actually become 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.280 a self limiting factor that overdetermines the scope of our 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.600 own art. Let's return to my interview with Vera Drew 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:56.160 to continue this topic. Queer people, specifically trans people have 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:00.160 kind of been stuck with a lot of their art 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.640 or video art just becoming this thing that you throw 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.080 up on YouTube. We've done a good job in making 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.840 like a community there, I suppose, but at certain points 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.120 it feels very like insular, like we've created this little 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.560 tiny bubble that everything is just trapped inside of. Because 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.560 obviously we can't like rely on like big studios to 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:18.760 make our own stuff or distribute our own stuff like that. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.840 That's not happening either. But I feel like we're kind 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.560 of kicking ourselves in the foot if our only artistic 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:30.600 output is like techno music and YouTube video essays, both 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.920 of which can be good, both of which can be art. 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.280 But there's a whole other world out there that I 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.360 feel like we have closed ourselves off from, and so 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.440 I'm kind of interested, like like on that choice to 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.560 like not put it on YouTube and actually like ride 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:45.160 this thing out as like a movie. 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:49.920 Yeah, I mean that is Uh, it's it's such a 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:52.680 relief to hear you talk about it in that way, because, yeah, 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.360 I never want to be dismissive of online creators. 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:58.680 Sure, Like I worked in TV. 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.280 For ten years as a editor, and I was very 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.920 fortunate to work on a lot of really cool shit, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.800 Like I worked on my first job was I was 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:11.120 an intern on The Eric Andre Show, and like then 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.720 my job immediately after that was on Nathan for You, 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.240 So I really got to work with like all these 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:21.919 really amazing comedians, many geniuses, and in that process like 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.399 always knew I had wanted to make film, Like my 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:28.040 earliest memories are are wanting to make films. Like right 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.480 around the time I saw Batman Forever, I was like, 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:34.119 I want to be a director, and I came up 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.640 in post production just because like a lot of editors 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.600 end up sort of following, you know, a lot of 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:43.719 editors are really just direct like frustrated directors. So I 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.240 was kind of like, here's a place where I could 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.840 like sort of learn my craft. And I've always loved 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.080 experimental animation and visual effects and stuff and also just 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:58.040 like incorporate that as well into like my career. And 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.119 it's good. I'm so glad I had it as like 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.159 an incubation period for me to kind of find my 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.880 voice and my aesthetic and and learn a lot from 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.199 these like super talented people. But there was always this 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:13.000 frustration that I had because when I would take stuff 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.640 out to pitch or anything that was like my own story, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:22.680 like you can't really get trans art made in any 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.440 sort of mainstream space. I think that's one of the 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.760 things that's most frustrating about the whole like woke culture bullshit, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.720 just because it's like they act like we're some sort 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.800 of like elite class that's like favored by the media, 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.879 which it's like I can just tell you, like that's 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:40.760 I'm on my press week right now. Like the media 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.120 is certainly enamored with trans people, but like I don't 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:46.080 think it's like coming from a place of like we're 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.880 trying to change and put everything and you know, make 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.320 these people in charge. It's just uh, you know, it's 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.040 it's click baity and it gets people, it keeps people 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.840 arguing online. So it's very hard just to even break 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.720 through as a director too. Like I mean I was 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.960 at that, you know, forget pitching shows that I've written 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.440 or whatever, like just trying to get episodic TV work. 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.560 I just couldn't do it, like once I changed my pronouns, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.960 Like I was literally up for jobs that went away 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.719 after I came out. So I just reached this point 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:23.479 of like I think, maximum frustration and kind of like 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.159 wanted to whatever I did, you know, I don't want 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.120 to say like I was ready to walk away from 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.760 like working in the industry in twenty nineteen, but I 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:34.399 kind of was like I was kind of just at 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:36.000 this point where I was like, I need to make 0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:40.400 a fucking movie or something on my own and kind 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.240 of just put all I have into that, and that's 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.120 going to be the way people will either finally take 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.720 me seriously as a director, or like I'll at least 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.960 have made a movie and then I can just be 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.760 in debt and I'll have a movie I made. So 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.320 to me, it was always about not necessarily like finally 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.040 being taken seriously by my indus, but just like kind 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:04.359 of making this giant piece of art that is not 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:06.480 only like a big like look what I can do, 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.280 you know style thing, but like is also just about 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:14.479 all of that about the frustration of being allowed in 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:17.480 but only being allowed in in these certain ways, like 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.800 whether it's on like a diversity cast or like, you 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.520 know whatever. Like I was, I worked on the show. 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.359 I can't really talk about it because it's like NDA 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:28.240 stuff and I don't think the show will ever come out. 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.240 But I was in the writer's room on a cartoon 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.080 that was being rebooted and it was one of my 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:37.000 favorite cartoons of all time. But I had a day 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:38.479 where I was like just sitting in the writer's room 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.359 and I was like looking around at my coworkers and 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.000 it was I was like, oh, wait a minute, it's 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.680 all girls, and I'm I'm a girl, and I'm a 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:51.120 trans girl. We're all just being brought in to rehabilitate 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.600 this like problematic piece of art, you know. And it 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.280 was like this crazy moment of having like like also 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.880 have had lost jobs because of my identity and now 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:01.720 in this place where it's like my identity is like 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:05.960 this bargaining chip. So anyway, how does this connect to 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.720 the online art conversation? Like I've always kind of had 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:13.520 to also play in like online spaces, Like I started 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:15.960 a public access station with my friends a few years 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:18.919 ago called Highland Park TV. A few years ago. I 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.080 was like ten years ago now, but that's still going 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.040 on today. And it was basically just this space for 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.520 us where we could like just record whatever. You know. 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:29.959 We'd meet up one week and come with like some 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.920 pretty simple sketches and shoot it on our public access 0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:36.080 set and throw it up online. And you know, like 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:38.560 twelve people would watch it and that was it and 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:40.959 that but that was cool, like you know, you'd build 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.239 like little followings and communities that way, and I had 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.520 always just wanted to break out of that, you know, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:54.160 because I think my sensibilities are pretty me and edgy 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:59.560 and weird. But like I'm really kind of a basic bitch, 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.679 like when it got to the stuff I like, like, 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.880 I really like my taste is very college dorm room. 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:08.360 I have a back to the future tattoo. Like I'm 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.520 very influenced by like genre film, and you know, like 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:14.320 I love David Lynch, I love experimental film and stuff too. 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.200 But like I've always like really felt like I. 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:17.679 Could do it. 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:20.840 I could be like just like a genre filmmaker. But 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.040 when we had the controversy at TIFF, I had a 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:25.880 lot of pressure on me to just kind of put 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:29.080 the movie out there, and I could never articulate to 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.600 people why it was important to me to not do 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.840 that and to hold out. It wasn't just like financial, 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.640 it really was. I mean, I mean, maybe it's ego thing, 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.200 but it's also just like I've been doing this long 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.400 enough to know like the movie was gonna always find 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.520 its audience, but there needed to kind of be a 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.480 plan in place so that like I could actually put 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.200 it towards having a career that the career that I've 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.640 wanted my whole life. You know, Like, I think it's 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.840 ridiculous that we live in a culture now where every artist, 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.320 even the ones like me who have had a trade 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.240 in this industry, Like in an industry like that, we 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.280 have to really carve our own path in online spaces 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:15.440 or on Twitter or YouTube or whatever. It just keeps 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.560 us all in cycles of poverty. It like, like I 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.960 fucking hate posting to Twitter. I do it still just 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:25.320 because it's the easiest way to get the word out, 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:27.280 But every single time I send a tweet, I'm like, 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:31.159 this sucks. Like I'm supporting one of the worst people 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.359 alive right now just by still using this site, somebody 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:37.359 who hates me and people like me so much that 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:40.439 he literally won't talk to his own child. Yeah. Like, 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.760 I really just wanted to kick the door down for 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:48.639 myself and hopefully for some people that come after me. 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.439 And you know, I really don't want to be the 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.400 type of filmmaker and the type of queer filmmaker who 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:57.879 like holds the ladder up behind them, like it's not 0:23:57.920 --> 0:24:02.000 even that I have integrity, it's just that like this 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.840 movie is that to me, this movie is such like 0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.119 it's a gospel on how we need to be making 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:12.840 art more ethically and more for ourselves and from a 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:16.520 place of care. And yeah, that's just I want to 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.120 hopefully change my little corner of the industry as much 0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:21.919 as I can toward that. 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:25.800 I mean, it definitely feels like we're getting more and 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:29.000 more people are embracing this idea of independent queer cinema, 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.600 and more people are are deciding instead of putting whatever 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:34.879 short film they want on YouTube, try to do a 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:36.119 festival circuit. 0:24:36.080 --> 0:24:36.520 And it's it. 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:38.280 That was one of the things that I think I 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.560 really respected after what happened at TIFF. What I really 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.240 respected at your insistence to like, no, like we're going 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:47.440 to find a distributor, Like we're we're not just gonna 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:49.480 throw it up online and call it a day. It's 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:51.600 not just gonna be like a fan film. It's like, 0:24:51.680 --> 0:24:54.040 this is an actual, like expressive piece that we're gonna 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:55.920 It might mean that you won't see it for another 0:24:55.960 --> 0:24:58.760 two years, but it shows like a level of like 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:03.000 actual artistic commitment that I found gave gave the project 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:07.239 a real sense of like wait, oh, thank you. The 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:11.520 notion of this comfortable YouTube bubble we've created is perhaps 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.320 why I find the public Access TV side of la 0:25:14.359 --> 0:25:18.280 Yeerman's Late Stage Live so compelling. A lot of queer 0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:21.280 people around my age grew up with the transgender video 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:25.160 essay as the primary form of our artistic video output, 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:28.240 and there's a lot of good video essays out there, 0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:30.960 but at a certain point it started to feel like 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.440 the main way a young, radical queer person could engage 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:37.879 with the art form. It's gotten to feel so insular 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:41.040 and a bit restrictive, like we're enforcing our own bubble. 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.440 On top of this self limiting aspect, I'm not even 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:47.879 sure how much growth the format even has Anymore. Recently, 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:50.720 I've begun to see more queer artists specifically trying to 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:55.119 make things outside the strict video essay framework. Even some 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:57.959 of the most popular trans video essay creators have been 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:01.480 trying to move into documentary and narrative film making. I 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:05.320 asked Ella about moving beyond the video essay bubble because 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:07.679 although Late Stage Live does it air on YouTube as 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.520 well as Brooklyn Public Access, the format is not just 0:26:10.720 --> 0:26:13.440 your average transgender video essay. 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:16.359 We don't have any pink lighting at all. Yeah, it's 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:19.159 definitely something I've been thinking about a lot, both like 0:26:19.200 --> 0:26:22.399 in my own personal career and for the show. A 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:24.359 lot of my bylines in the last few years are 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:26.480 all YouTube based with late stage and some more news, 0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:29.800 and it's frustrating that even as YouTube has seen so 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.119 much growth, and like celebrities come from YouTube all the 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:35.480 time and some of the biggest names in the world. 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:36.840 Are Internet stars. 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:39.240 Now, there's still like the sense of illegitimacy to be 0:26:39.240 --> 0:26:42.240 doing a project on YouTube, and like when I try 0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:44.880 and get published in like more legitimate journalism magazines every 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:46.879 so often, I'm always looking at my resume and being like, 0:26:46.920 --> 0:26:49.720 I wish I had like a byline in a magazine 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:51.960 instead of three years of writing for a YouTube show 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:53.960 that I love so much and think is doing better 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:56.080 works than most of these magazines, but like that I 0:26:56.119 --> 0:26:59.600 know won't get treated the same. So there's definitely an 0:26:59.600 --> 0:27:02.879 aspect to that that I think. Yeah, like it's partly 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:05.760 YouTube is so accessible anyone can post on YouTube that 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:08.879 I understand why queer people have sort of relegated themselves 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:11.200 to this bubble. Trans people wrote like why we've ended 0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:15.040 up with like you know, the trans video essay scene, 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:19.000 thank you Mother Natalie. But it makes it hard to 0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:23.119 sort of break into this like final frontier of legitimacy, 0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:26.119 I think, and I think by like, yeah, like not 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:30.359 fully committing ourselves to being a YouTube show from the 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:33.040 get go, we do sort of leave doors open to 0:27:33.080 --> 0:27:36.359 be considered like a more legitimate television production, which is 0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:39.359 exciting for like growth opportunities. I think the live studio 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:41.879 audience also really pushes us out of that zone. We 0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:43.840 get a lot of accusations from people who are mean 0:27:43.880 --> 0:27:45.600 on the Internet of using a laugh track, and I 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:47.120 just want to say, and I will say it till 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.520 the day I die, It would be so much easier 0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:50.720 if we were. 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:54.600 I could totally tell when there's gay people laughing the 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:58.960 background versus a laugh track. It's a very clear difference. Absolutely. 0:27:59.040 --> 0:28:01.040 It would be so easy if I was just plugging 0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:01.720 that in in posts. 0:28:01.760 --> 0:28:02.000 But no. 0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:06.919 We bring in thirty thirty five Gaze every month just 0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:08.879 to laugh at my jokes, and sometimes they don't. And 0:28:08.920 --> 0:28:11.000 you can see that too when they don't laugh at 0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:13.480 my jokes. But I think that is something I was 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:15.399 really excited to do. That is different from a lot 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:18.440 of the other video essay sphere because it also brings 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:21.080 in aspects of live performance that I love as a 0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:23.760 stand up and as a theater artist. And also like, yeah, 0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.239 just pulls it into like a slightly different genre of 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.680 thing that we're making, and I think certainly in terms 0:28:29.720 --> 0:28:32.920 of like growth and audience building and like the potential 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:36.040 of being picked up by some larger organization. It definitely 0:28:36.080 --> 0:28:37.840 puts us in like a different It makes us look 0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:41.360 slightly different than like a YouTube show, even if we 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:43.560 can all like sort of quietly acknowledge, like, well, what 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:45.600 all of our growth is happening on YouTube and Instagram? 0:28:45.880 --> 0:28:48.280 But like, as you said, like Real Late Night is 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.640 huge on YouTube now too, and there's all these other 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:55.400 extra correlating factors of like monetization on YouTube sort of 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:58.600 died a few years ago after the ad apocalypse or whatever, 0:28:58.640 --> 0:29:02.280 and you have to go through crowdfunding sources like Patreon 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:07.320 or sponsorships or x Otherwise, like there's not like you can't. 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:10.600 Nebula or whatever new streaming service for YouTube pops up. 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:13.600 Yeah, right, you can't just rely on ad sense anymore, 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:16.680 and that's frustrating in its own degree. But I think 0:29:16.720 --> 0:29:20.120 even beyond that, Yeah, like not relegating ourselves to being 0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:25.040 a YouTube show, both thematically and like concretely in terms 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:30.160 of content and form is like really exciting. And I 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:32.760 think like, even as we grow and gain a budget 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:34.720 and are able to buy nicer cameras, we want to 0:29:34.760 --> 0:29:39.160 like keep the aesthetics and vibe of like edgy radical 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:42.640 public access because it's like a part of the voice 0:29:42.680 --> 0:29:44.920 of the show along with sort of the practicalities. 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:49.320 Yeah, having background ketamine jokes, I think really is right 0:29:49.760 --> 0:29:52.080 sets you apart the quote. 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:54.720 Unquote VHS cleaner that sits on the desk every episode. 0:29:55.200 --> 0:29:56.440 I don't own a VHS. 0:29:57.240 --> 0:29:59.680 We will return to it could happen here after these 0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:14.280 messag we now return to It could happen here. To me, 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:16.440 the most exciting thing about the idea of a new 0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:19.320 wave of independent trans cinema is that we'll get to 0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:22.320 see a whole bunch of trans films that otherwise would 0:30:22.320 --> 0:30:26.520 never get made by the big studios. After trans filmmaker 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:30.680 Jane Shanbron's successful festival run of her small scale future 0:30:30.720 --> 0:30:33.640 debut titled We're All Going to the World's Fair back 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:36.840 in twenty twenty one, Her next film, called I Saw 0:30:36.880 --> 0:30:39.720 the TV Glow, got picked up by Emma Stone's production 0:30:39.840 --> 0:30:42.600 company and a twenty four The film is now coming 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:46.040 out later this month. In the case of the People's Joker, 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:48.520 it dares to take Warner Brothers and Disney at their 0:30:48.560 --> 0:30:52.680 word that their privately owned intellectual property is in fact 0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:56.640 our culture's version of mythology, our very own Greek gods. 0:30:57.080 --> 0:31:00.000 And so if these characters really are the cultural icon 0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:03.160 that the monopolized companies who own them claim them to be, 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:07.160 what happens when we actually do treat them like mythology 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:11.040 and use these characters to artistically mythologize our own lives 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:16.320 By skillfully sidestepping copyright law via effective legal parody, we 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:18.560 get to have a Batman film through the lens of 0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:22.480 transgender chaos magic, which I'm afraid would simply never happen 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.720 under Warner Brothers Discovery, as they can't even stop deleting 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:29.080 their own finished films to get tax write offs. A 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.200 few weeks ago, I showed my it could happen here 0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:34.480 co host Mia Wong the People's Joker, and afterwards we 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.920 talked about what makes it feel so special and it's 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:39.560 placed within the pantheon of queer cinema. 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:43.040 One of my dear friends, Vicky Asturweil, is writing a 0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:46.920 book called The Extended Universe about sort of copyright law 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:50.040 and what's done to film and specifically focusing on on 0:31:50.080 --> 0:31:53.480 Disney and the thing that's different about The People's Joker. Right, 0:31:53.520 --> 0:31:56.200 if you want to know why the People's Joker is 0:31:56.840 --> 0:31:59.959 you know why specifically you couldn't make this. It's partially 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.600 because it's trans and it's partially because it's actually a movie. Yes, 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:05.480 because and then this is this is this is this 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:07.120 is Vicky's argument, you know, and this is this is 0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:10.360 the hidden truth about the film industry is that movies 0:32:10.560 --> 0:32:11.920 are not designed to sell movies. 0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:13.760 No, they're designed to send copyright. 0:32:14.400 --> 0:32:14.600 No. 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.240 No, it's it's worse than that. Like, a superhero movie 0:32:17.280 --> 0:32:19.720 does not make money on the movie, right, The movie 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:21.360 theater is not making money on the movie. The movie 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:25.960 theater is making money on food the company itself. That's 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:27.840 not where the money comes from. The money comes from 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:31.600 toy sales, yeah, and sales of stuff afterwards. Right, So 0:32:31.680 --> 0:32:34.000 what you're actually seeing when you're seeing a superhero movie 0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:37.120 is just an ad And this is Yeah, and this 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:38.960 is part of what the people's joker is that makes 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:42.320 it different, right, And you know, and it's because, like specifically, 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:44.440 because it is trans and because of the way that 0:32:44.480 --> 0:32:46.440 is trans this makes it impossible for its being made 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:49.840 by corporation, and because trans people fought to make it, 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:52.239 it gets to be an actual movie and not a 0:32:52.280 --> 0:32:53.480 fucking toy sales thing. 0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:56.160 Yeah, because they're not going to be making a toy 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:58.240 of mustache pedophile batman. 0:32:58.920 --> 0:32:59.320 Yeah. 0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:03.160 Right, And this is incredibly important for the genre of 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.360 film because you know, I mean, there is a world 0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:07.960 that is not too far off where we are the 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:11.360 last people making actual fucking films and not advertisements. 0:33:11.800 --> 0:33:12.400 Yeah. 0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:16.480 To use this sort of like only semi ironically, using 0:33:16.560 --> 0:33:18.640 this sort of lofty like Marxist language is like, yeah, 0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:20.520 like we kind of also have been given the historical 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:26.000 task of saving film from its complete annihilation by these 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:30.920 fucking capitalist copyright gouals. It's a pleasure to see. It's 0:33:30.960 --> 0:33:32.920 a joy to see. I think I was reading an 0:33:32.960 --> 0:33:37.360 interesting article recently that talked about how trans media's orientation 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:40.400 has been very referential. It's been very much based on 0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:45.000 experiences that trans people have as kids, engaging with media, 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:47.760 whether that's with something like Buffy the Vampires Layer, whether 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:52.080 that's with DC comics, and it's because transness is so 0:33:52.160 --> 0:33:55.520 much about recontextualizing your whole life and identity. A lot 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:58.520 of trans media has also been about this form of recontextualization, 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:00.840 both with I think The People's Joker is a great 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:04.160 example also, uh uh, the upcoming film I Saw The 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:06.880 TV Glow, which is very much based on like Buffy 0:34:06.960 --> 0:34:08.560 and other and other kind of like Monster of the 0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:12.480 Week title TV shows. It's combining all of that kind 0:34:12.480 --> 0:34:16.520 of stuff with a lot of lynching influences, both both 0:34:16.520 --> 0:34:18.440 in these cases, both in The People's Joker and in 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:21.440 I Saw The TV Glow to create this like fever 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:25.120 dream of self identity in this referential format, and that's 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:28.360 been an interesting trend to watch in trans cinema, and 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:30.080 I think that's that's something that's something to look I 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:33.080 think that's something to look for when you're engaging with 0:34:33.239 --> 0:34:36.080 future trans cinema projects, seeing if those kind of things 0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:38.680 pop up and if and if they don't, why is 0:34:38.719 --> 0:34:41.120 that what else is actually happening instead? I think those 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:44.400 are gonna be some interesting interesting ways to uh engage 0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:47.879 with our own diy art in the next decade here, 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:51.480 because as much as like everything we talk about is 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.520 so like depressing, like on this show, like about how 0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:57.320 everything dealing with like trends stuff is about how everyone's 0:34:57.360 --> 0:34:59.600 trying to like kill us and restrict our medical care, 0:35:00.040 --> 0:35:04.000 that does not actually stop us from becoming people who 0:35:04.080 --> 0:35:07.040 actually engage with culture in any real sense. I think 0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:10.000 despite everything that's targeted against trans people, it does not 0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:13.880 stop us from actually having a cultural output. And the 0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:15.919 thing a lot of conservatives are afraid of is our 0:35:15.960 --> 0:35:20.480 cultural output. The fact that trans people keep being actually 0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:24.600 really compelling artists and really really compelling people in general 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:29.200 makes conservatives service. I don't think it's impossible for conservatives 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:29.560 to make art. 0:35:29.560 --> 0:35:31.839 I think there is conservative art that actually can be 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:36.560 seen as like okay art, But they certainly are afraid 0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:39.520 at how good trans people are at making music and 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:43.000 now making movies. When I was talking with me, she 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.239 brought up a good point that all paraphrase here. Part 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:49.560 of why we're seeing this new wave of independent transcinema 0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:52.439 is the result of a combination of two things. One 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:55.560 is that trans and queer artists have been and continue 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:58.040 to be chewed up and spat out by the traditional 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:02.400 media machine, and two, the traditional media machine itself is 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:06.640 slowly rotting from the inside, which can be a tricky 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:10.680 situation to navigate for a lot of queer artists. But simultaneously, 0:36:10.719 --> 0:36:13.760 it also means that we're in this position, we're having 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:17.479 been spat out, we have full rain to go make 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:21.800 our own, massive, grotesque, degenerate queer art on our own, 0:36:22.280 --> 0:36:26.680 because there simply is no artistic alternative. Trans people need 0:36:26.719 --> 0:36:29.560 to be submitting to film festivals regardless of whether or 0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:34.160 not CIS viewers and critics will understand the work. Filmmaking 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:35.839 is one of those art forms that you can't really 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.560 do all by yourself, but that doesn't need to be 0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.360 a limitation. That can be an asset. Gay people are 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:44.880 good at a lot of different things, and filmmaking integrates 0:36:44.960 --> 0:36:49.120 so many different artistic areas and skills, and as we've seen, 0:36:49.400 --> 0:36:52.120 a movie made by a community of queers can create 0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:55.799 such a unique result. When talking with Vera Drew, she 0:36:55.880 --> 0:36:58.600 mentioned that having a whole team of artists help her 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:01.719 complete the movie is also in part what ensured that 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:03.680 she would find a way for the film to be 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:06.759 distributed the right way so that it's seen up on 0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:08.960 the big screen and not just published online for free. 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.319 You know. That was another thing that really kind of 0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:18.319 kept me from doing anything irrational with the film, like 0:37:18.360 --> 0:37:20.799 posting it on Google Drive with contribution to like a 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.560 donation link or whatever. It was like like I have 0:37:23.719 --> 0:37:26.040 all these artists that just worked on this movie with 0:37:26.120 --> 0:37:28.719 me for two and a half years, and like, no, 0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:31.319 we're gonna fucking do this, Like I said I would 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:34.359 do this, and I'm gonna do this cause like I 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:37.960 can't just like feed this back into the incubator and 0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:41.600 the fucking feedback loop of trans Twitter and like cool 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:44.640 underground circles that I totally love to be a part of, 0:37:44.680 --> 0:37:48.080 but we're all trying to, you know, get more visibility 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:50.680 outside of those things. So yeah, I always really just 0:37:50.719 --> 0:37:54.120 wanted to honor that, honor the team and make everybody 0:37:54.400 --> 0:37:57.680 feel valued, and you know, I paid as many people 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:00.439 as I could, and you know, was very str forward 0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:03.120 about what I could afford, and a lot of people 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.319 worked in ways that they just felt compensated and that 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:08.840 was very appreciated. You know, I think in general, like 0:38:08.920 --> 0:38:13.640 everybody on this was very underpaid, but like it was 0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:16.920 such a labor of love and such like a a 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:21.520 personal thing for for all of us that everybody just 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:24.160 like showed up and really rallied around each other and 0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:28.480 really just kept saying yes and to everything, and it's 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:30.839 so cool. I don't I don't know how I'll ever 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:33.359 really be able to replicate. I don't think I should either, 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:36.080 just because it's it was it was quite a Gargantiouan task, 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:39.640 but you know, it was. It was literally the best 0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:41.600 time of my life was was making this movie. Like 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:44.560 I think it really it taught me just how to 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.040 be a human being and how to love and how 0:38:47.040 --> 0:38:51.120 to like finally feel connected to my to my queer community, 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:55.520 because I think like the People's Jokers really more than anything, 0:38:55.560 --> 0:39:01.799 it's really about nuance and like relationships and family and politics, 0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:05.319 and it talks about nuance by really leaning into these 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:10.080 like extremes, which I think just is also inherently queer, 0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:12.680 and I don't know, I mean, that's to me, is 0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:16.520 like another thing. It's just like I hope and there's 0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:18.759 a lot of trance filmmakers that are like starting to 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:21.000 pop up in the genre space, but like I hope 0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:23.600 we see more of it, just because like we all 0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:25.440 grew up on the same movies that Sis people did, 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:28.799 so like, why can't we make similar art, you know, 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:31.520 and tell our stories in the process, and also do 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:34.520 it in a way that's like not hiding in the shadows. 0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:38.399 The People's Joker is slowly ending. It's us theatrical run, 0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:40.720 but you can still look for tickets and show times 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.799 at The People's Joker dot com and you can find 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:47.720 Vera Drew online at Vera Drew twenty two. Late Stage 0:39:47.719 --> 0:39:50.800 Live just released their sixth episode and I'm really excited 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:53.439 to see how the show will grow and evolve over time. 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:56.239 And we've actually recently hit an inflection point with the 0:39:56.280 --> 0:40:00.240 show where like the sort of organic, haphazard growth is 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:03.000 no longer sustainable for us. We've been having a lot 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:06.960 of really exciting and scary conversations behind the scenes about 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:10.480 like formalizing our production process and kicking our shit up 0:40:10.480 --> 0:40:12.719 a notch so that we have the potential to make 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:15.600 this bigger and better and more polished. But it is 0:40:15.640 --> 0:40:17.640 at its core still like a production born out of 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:21.799 community and like mutual respect. I'm Ella Yeerman. You can 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:24.400 find me on Instagram at La dot Yeerman, on x 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.600 dot com at Ella Yeerman. I think I'm on Blue Sky. Also, 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.600 though I don't do anything there. You can find Late 0:40:30.640 --> 0:40:34.480 Stage Live as Late Sailers Live on all platforms. That's Instagram, 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:40.000 x YouTube, TikTok probably also Blue Sky, but those are 0:40:40.040 --> 0:40:41.920 the big ones. And then if you're interested in finding 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.960 my stand up show, we're at T four T Comedy 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:49.239 on Instagram and x oh. And then most specifically, if 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:51.600 you're interested in helping fun blade stage and make us 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:54.120 bigger and better and shinier, you can go to patreon 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.960 dot com slash Late Stage Live, where we post. Yeah, 0:40:57.000 --> 0:40:59.799 we have a behind the scenes photos and videos, and 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:03.640 we make a semi frequent podcast where my head writer 0:41:03.680 --> 0:41:05.640 and I talk about the news and shoot the ship 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:07.880 and talk about the process and a lot more detail 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.640 episode by episode. And we're so grateful for our current 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:14.520 patrons and for opportunities like this, and we're excited to 0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:15.280 see where the show. 0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:18.480 Goes that doesn't for us, and it could happen here. 0:41:18.680 --> 0:41:21.640 I hope you enjoyed my Transformers and g I Joe 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:24.399 ad Break references, and if not, you can send any 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:28.399 complaints to the President of Columbia University. Solidarity to everyone 0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:30.600 across the country who's been out the past few weeks, 0:41:31.080 --> 0:41:41.799 see you on the other side. 0:41:43.520 --> 0:41:45.880 Welcome to take it up. And here a podcast that 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:48.640 is I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna 0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:50.319 speak for the rest of my hosts who aren't here 0:41:50.360 --> 0:41:51.880 so they can't stop me and say that this is 0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:56.719 a podcast normally opposed to brunch. I'm your host, Mia Wong, 0:41:57.200 --> 0:42:00.839 and today we are talking about some that we kind 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:03.319 of haven't been covered, we haven't covered as much as 0:42:03.360 --> 0:42:08.440 I think we should have, which is unionization in small businesses. 0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:10.680 We've talked a lot about unization and sort of larger things. 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:13.480 We've talked about sort of mid mid sized chains. But 0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:17.359 today we're talking about the unionization of a place called 0:42:17.440 --> 0:42:20.560 Friday Egg I'm in Love in Portland's which it's it's 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:24.560 if you sort of imagine the platonic ideal of what 0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:26.960 do you think a place called Friday Egg I'm in 0:42:27.040 --> 0:42:29.280 Love is going to be? Like it is in fact 0:42:29.400 --> 0:42:32.600 that And with me to talk about this is Soul 0:42:32.680 --> 0:42:36.719 and Janey from the Friday Egg Workers Union. Yeah, both 0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:37.720 of you, welcome to the show. 0:42:38.000 --> 0:42:38.759 Thank you so much. 0:42:39.040 --> 0:42:40.239 Yeah, thanks for having us. 0:42:40.600 --> 0:42:44.759 Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this partially, you know, 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.759 I mean as as we've sort of discussed a little bit, 0:42:46.760 --> 0:42:48.840 because I want to get into a bit later the 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.400 specific dynamics of sort of small business union stuff. But 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:57.520 first things first, I wanted to sort of talk about what, actually, 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:00.279 you know, how did you all decide to unionize, because 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:03.120 I think this is a bit different story than the 0:43:03.200 --> 0:43:04.759 kind of thing we usually get on this show. 0:43:05.320 --> 0:43:09.560 Absolutely well, I've been at this particular restaurant since twenty 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:13.640 nineteen and it's been something that's come up every now 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:18.120 and then. I think we're just a very queer workplace. 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:21.560 We're a very leftist workplace, and we tend to have 0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:25.239 a lot of common ideals. And I feel like what 0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:30.880 makes our unionization effort unique or maybe not unique, but 0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:34.080 just different than a lot of like we need to 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:37.919 start a union right now kind of efforts is there 0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:40.000 wasn't a thing that caused it. We were all, like 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:42.480 me and five other people were just sitting around a 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:45.760 table and decided, Hey, we should just start a union, 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:48.800 and so we kind of looked into what that looks 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:53.000 like and the snowball started rolling downhill. 0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:55.480 Yeah, and this is something I think is really interesting 0:43:55.520 --> 0:43:57.840 because you know, I mean one of the things you 0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.799 get really commonly in sort of like anti new propaganda. 0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:03.080 You see this, like I so a lot of my 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:05.840 family were engineers, right, and engineers do this all the 0:44:05.840 --> 0:44:07.399 time where they're like, oh, we don't need a union. 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:09.920 We're like happy, we're well paid, everything's great. And then 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:11.719 you know, you look at you, you look at what 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:13.279 happens to them, and it's like, oh, well now you 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:17.640 have boeing Right, It's like, well, you you will, you will, 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:20.160 you will never organize, you no longer have any power, 0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:23.439 and your planes are like falling from the sky. So yeah, 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:25.399 this this is a I'm gonna I'm taking this, taking 0:44:25.520 --> 0:44:28.040 my soapbox moment to be like you two out there, 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:31.160 even if your job is good, at some point it's 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:34.000 going to not be and you should unionize first before 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:38.120 they I don't know, like be google and decide that 0:44:38.400 --> 0:44:41.359 I don't be evil actually constrains them from making money 0:44:41.360 --> 0:44:44.240 and decide to be evil, So get get out ahead 0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:45.480 of them before. 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:52.360 Couldn't agree more absolutely, this has felt very, very proactive. 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:57.239 I haven't been there nearly nearly as long as some 0:44:57.360 --> 0:45:03.239 of my comrades, but the general like consensus is that 0:45:03.320 --> 0:45:09.800 like things are pretty good. So instead of letting things 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:13.920 go bad, let's let's make you know, major steps to 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:19.000 protect what we have, especially as like you kind of 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:22.880 notice how this small business is slowly, slowly starting to 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.239 operate like not a small business mm hm. 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.440 And we had a one of our food carts was 0:45:30.320 --> 0:45:34.520 upgraded to a brick and mortar at the beginning of 0:45:34.520 --> 0:45:38.720 this year, and pretty much in that in that moment 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:42.880 that that started operating as a real restaurant, it things 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:49.040 really clearly I think started setting in that like that 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:51.120 this is a bigger operation than it used to be, 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:55.800 and they very like the owner very much still has 0:45:56.120 --> 0:45:58.399 the intention of making it as good of a place 0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:01.799 to work as he can, which is to be appreciated. 0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:05.680 But it's also understandable that as things start to grow, 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:10.960 it's a lot better if it's a collaborative process in 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:13.279 terms of making it the best place to work that 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:19.759 it can be. And I think getting a seat at 0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:23.200 the table is something that we have to make for ourselves, 0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:27.400 but it doesn't necessarily have to be a threat or 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:28.120 a retaliation. 0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:31.600 This is something I think is kind of important with unionizing, 0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:34.640 especially places that are kind of you know, like or 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:36.879 you know, we're even where the sort of the boss 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:40.680 is legitimately trying to like do the right thing, which 0:46:40.680 --> 0:46:42.759 like it's kind of true of like my work, right, 0:46:43.000 --> 0:46:46.520 like you know, like the people above my bosses are 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:50.160 kind of a fiasco, but like my immediate like bosses 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:53.040 are like you know, it's Robert and Sophie, right, Like 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:58.520 they're pretty chill. But you know, like one of the 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.520 dynamics that sets in is like you know, it's not 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:06.040 what the actual conditions are, isn't necessarily always going to 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:08.640 be under their control, even if you know, like even 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:11.200 if they want to do the right thing, and the 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:14.280 demands of things like scale and you know, the demands 0:47:14.280 --> 0:47:17.600 of sort of market competition have this sort of disciplining 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:21.160 effect on what, you know, like what what your working 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:23.400 conditions can be if you're going to sort of compete 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:28.000 with like I don't know, you're your like doughnut shop 0:47:28.040 --> 0:47:29.839 that like torches is union workers. 0:47:29.560 --> 0:47:29.880 Right. 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:37.920 You know for example, Yeah, yeah, pure purely abstract. 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:43.920 Purely abstract. Yeah, absolutely, you know, seeing a shop of 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:49.560 you know, twelve become you know, two shops, a food 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:54.000 cart and a commissary kitchen of thirty five. But definitely, 0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:57.680 you know, it's just pushing the business in a direction 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:01.040 very naturally. It feels very much like a part of 0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:05.200 how systems work, even if our even if your owner 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:12.160 has really good intentions, just the nature of how capitalism 0:48:12.200 --> 0:48:17.720 works is starts to change things as Yeah at scale 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:18.120 for sure. 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:31.560 Yeah, And that that gets into something else that I'm 0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:34.879 sort of interested in how the sort of unionizing process went, 0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:37.319 because this is a very I mean, I guess going 0:48:37.320 --> 0:48:39.319 from twelve to thirty five is a big increase in 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:43.120 the number of people, but that's still a very small shop. 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:45.600 So can you talk a bit about what it's been 0:48:45.800 --> 0:48:49.120 like kind of organizing in you know, I mean organizing 0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:51.279 a number of people that you can very easily fit 0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:52.200 into a room. 0:48:52.560 --> 0:48:55.680 It's been interesting and it's been exciting in that way 0:48:55.880 --> 0:48:58.399 because we are able to cram into a room and 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:04.239 the energy is very palpable and so like inspiring momentum 0:49:04.800 --> 0:49:08.000 to get shit done in each other has been really 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:12.440 really wonderful in that way. But I think also it's 0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:16.920 it makes it easy for us to be very tactical 0:49:17.800 --> 0:49:21.440 with how we are handling this process, where we're making 0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:25.719 sure that at all four locations there's a majority, if 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:31.600 not unanimous approval and support and membership in the union. 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:38.160 And the more that the more that I'm meeting union 0:49:38.239 --> 0:49:42.359 organizers and union reps and people from IWW, the more 0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:46.120 that I'm realizing we're in a situation where we can 0:49:46.239 --> 0:49:52.000 establish some really lovely precedent for similar workplaces who want 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:54.800 to start a union, who are about the same size 0:49:54.800 --> 0:49:58.239 as us, or even like neighbors in our like on 0:49:58.280 --> 0:50:03.120 the on the streets that are locations are at where 0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:07.840 we can do things like there's not enough precedent in 0:50:08.320 --> 0:50:14.279 the IWW for a service industry in general, but particularly 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:17.080 it's it's very common to be in the negotiating process 0:50:17.760 --> 0:50:21.000 and one of the things that will be offered to 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:25.399 the employer in exchange for whatever you're negotiating on is 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:28.919 like a no strike clause, like okay, we'll just we'll 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:30.720 give this to you of like we're just not gonna 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:34.120 be able just to strike for the duration of our contract, 0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:36.480 and so in exchange we can get some other stuff 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:41.560 that we're asking for. But because we have such a 0:50:41.600 --> 0:50:45.200 strong majority, and in all four locations we have a 0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:50.520 strong majority, I think we're currently planning on keeping the 0:50:50.600 --> 0:50:54.840 right to strike. Hell yeah, and you know we're not 0:50:54.920 --> 0:50:57.400 planning on it. I hope that we don't ever have 0:50:57.440 --> 0:51:01.680 to do that, but just having that as precedent I 0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:06.680 think will help our community and other similar unions. 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:10.000 Yeah, absolutely, I think. You know, this is something that 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:12.800 going back to if you look at the sort of 0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:15.120 heyday of American unionism, if you look at like the 0:51:15.120 --> 0:51:20.400 fifties sixty seventies, like those contracts didn't have no strike 0:51:20.400 --> 0:51:22.200 clauses in them. Some of them did, so sometimes it 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:25.319 was like a federal thing. But the thing about no 0:51:25.360 --> 0:51:28.040 strike clauses is that it makes you know, we've talked 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:30.319 about this a bit before on the show, but one 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:32.040 of the sort of issues when you have a union 0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:36.719 is like, okay, see, even if you get a contract right, 0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:38.799 and that usually takes that takes a long time, takes 0:51:38.800 --> 0:51:41.360 a lot of fighting, the company is immediately going to 0:51:41.360 --> 0:51:43.880 start trying to violate the contract. And so you know, 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:46.160 your contract is only as strong as your ability to 0:51:46.280 --> 0:51:48.960 enforce it. And you know, one of a really really 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:51.080 good way to enforce it is by being able to 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:55.160 go on strike. But normally, like yeah, people aren't organized 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:59.120 enough to actually like fight their employers on it, and 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:00.680 so it just ends up being a kind of standard 0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:03.000 part of contracts, And yeah, it's really exciting that y'all 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.479 are committing to fight for that from the beginning, because 0:52:05.480 --> 0:52:08.520 it's it's it's hard, it's it's not it's not an 0:52:08.520 --> 0:52:09.359 easy thing to do. 0:52:09.920 --> 0:52:12.880 Now, the more I learn about how unions operate, the 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:16.560 more I'm realizing that, you know, it doesn't necessarily stop 0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:21.680 people from getting fired, it doesn't necessarily stop people from having, 0:52:22.120 --> 0:52:25.600 you know, injustice happened upon them. But it just gives 0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:28.719 you the ability to fight in the first place. And 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:33.200 I think a lot of employers who are facing a 0:52:33.239 --> 0:52:39.359 workplace who are wanting to unionize like recognizing that it's 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.640 it's it's not like a threat. It's not like, Okay, 0:52:43.640 --> 0:52:46.920 we're uh, we're going to have this union and everyone's 0:52:46.960 --> 0:52:48.920 going to go on strike the next day and our 0:52:49.000 --> 0:52:50.240 business is going to tank. 0:52:50.719 --> 0:52:51.719 But it's they're just. 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:55.560 Asking for the right to to have a better negotiating seat. 0:52:56.320 --> 0:52:58.680 Yeah, this is something I actually think it's really interesting 0:52:58.719 --> 0:53:02.360 about this campaign where there's this really kind of I 0:53:02.400 --> 0:53:05.719 don't know, I think if you're able to build a 0:53:05.880 --> 0:53:11.200 precedent of being able to negotiate a contract that doesn't 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:13.120 have no strike clause, that allows you to go on 0:53:13.160 --> 0:53:15.759 strike whatever you know, whenever you want is something that 0:53:15.840 --> 0:53:20.080 is like characteristic of liking of you know, of a 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:23.000 of an incredibly militant shop. But I think if you can, 0:53:23.080 --> 0:53:26.200 if you can actually get the precedent of you know, 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:30.400 having companies treat this as normal, because it's something that 0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:32.799 should be normal, right like this, this is how a 0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:34.759 lot of the US used to work, right it used 0:53:34.760 --> 0:53:36.400 to be. If you were on like an auto line 0:53:37.120 --> 0:53:38.880 assembly line, there'd be there be a guy in a 0:53:38.920 --> 0:53:40.920 back with a whistle. And if and if you know, 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:43.960 if a contract violation happened, or like you know, if 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:45.600 if the company is asking you to do something that 0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:48.160 you aren't you know that you're not like contractually obligated 0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.319 to do, the person would you know, the union person 0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:52.920 would blow the whistle, immediate strike, the entire assembly line 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:55.760 goes down, and you know it turns out you actually 0:53:55.760 --> 0:54:00.360 can run a completely functional like economy like this. But 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:04.440 the kind of the mentality of the people who own 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:07.040 who own businesses right now is that you should never 0:54:07.120 --> 0:54:10.000 at any point, like you know, you should never at 0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:12.160 any point let your workers do anything at all. You 0:54:12.160 --> 0:54:14.680 should immediately fight them at the moment they try to 0:54:14.719 --> 0:54:17.200 unionize and I think you know, having a president of 0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:20.840 like you know, of of being able to get this 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:25.719 kind of stuff without immediately having to launch like you know, 0:54:26.000 --> 0:54:30.560 like I immediately kick off a series of stricture with 0:54:30.600 --> 0:54:32.719 your employer. Is is a good one? Is a good 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:33.480 one to set. 0:54:34.080 --> 0:54:38.280 That we have so many people that are super interested 0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:40.480 in like being a part of this organizing effort because 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:43.719 because we all like being there, like is I think 0:54:43.840 --> 0:54:46.680 is huge in comparison to like lots of stories that 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:51.120 we hear about and yeah, really wanting to like bring 0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:56.080 that to the restaurant industry because yeah, that's unions are 0:54:56.719 --> 0:55:02.279 you know, criminally under recognized within service work. Yeah, and 0:55:03.400 --> 0:55:05.920 arguably an industry that needs it the most. 0:55:06.400 --> 0:55:07.080 Yep, yep. 0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:10.120 Well, and that's the other exciting thing about this shop 0:55:10.239 --> 0:55:12.920 is that you know, you're talking about sort of like 0:55:13.000 --> 0:55:15.839 they're not being enough service organizing with it with the IWW. 0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:19.480 And that's true of like basically all unions because and 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:21.880 especially shops at your scale, because you know, a lot 0:55:21.920 --> 0:55:25.120 of these unions are using like a very kind of 0:55:25.680 --> 0:55:28.920 crude cross cost benefit analysis and their their assessment is like, well, 0:55:28.920 --> 0:55:32.120 why should we bother to organize like this shop that 0:55:32.120 --> 0:55:34.880 has thirty five people at it, because you know, this 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:36.680 is going to like where we're like the amount of 0:55:36.719 --> 0:55:38.120 dues money we're going to get out of it is 0:55:38.160 --> 0:55:41.000 like not you know, is not is not worth the effort. 0:55:41.040 --> 0:55:42.719 But on the other hand, you know, like do you 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:46.279 know how many workers there are, like how many of 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:49.200 these like how many of these tiny shops across the 0:55:49.200 --> 0:55:51.400 there are across the entire country that if you know, 0:55:51.400 --> 0:55:54.719 and if everyone just refuses to organize them, then you're 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:58.200 leaving like tens of millions of workers just sort of 0:55:58.239 --> 0:55:58.920 like screwed. 0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:03.440 Yeah. I can't speak for all IWW, but I know, 0:56:03.640 --> 0:56:07.560 like talking with like the Portland branch, it definitely mirrors 0:56:07.600 --> 0:56:11.000 our shop and at like how queer and leftist it is. 0:56:11.520 --> 0:56:16.239 And is that surprising that they're working with the IWW 0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:20.120 or with the Coalition of Independent Unions which is a 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:24.200 Pacific Northwest like union for unions kind of thing. It's 0:56:24.239 --> 0:56:27.839 not surprising that like our values are aligned and it's 0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:31.120 like making making for something like really fun and like 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:34.000 you know, setting a new kind of industry standard for 0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:35.040 service industry. 0:56:35.520 --> 0:56:39.160 Yeah, unfortunately, speaking of industry standards, I have to go 0:56:39.200 --> 0:56:43.719 to an ad break. It's in my contract somewhere, probably, 0:56:43.840 --> 0:56:45.840 though I don't think my employers have read my contract 0:56:45.840 --> 0:56:47.920 in a long time. But you know, such are the 0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:50.680 dictates of a podcast that you're that your senior bosses 0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:55.680 don't listen to. Yeah, we will return in however long 0:56:56.840 --> 0:57:11.600 the ads are and we are back, so. 0:57:13.320 --> 0:57:13.600 Okay. 0:57:13.840 --> 0:57:16.840 Another thing that I kind of wanted to talk about 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:21.320 is what has it sort of been like in terms 0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:23.480 of like, you know, so like, how has you know, 0:57:23.840 --> 0:57:25.920 in a shop that's like this small, how has the 0:57:25.960 --> 0:57:28.920 sort of like organizing conversations gone right, Like is everyone 0:57:29.000 --> 0:57:31.600 just sort of close enough that you know, you were 0:57:31.600 --> 0:57:33.280 able to kind of do this organically, or was there 0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:36.760 still sort of a like mapping process for all of 0:57:36.800 --> 0:57:37.880 the shops or. 0:57:39.320 --> 0:57:43.120 Well, luckily it has gone pretty smoothly. But we were 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:48.000 advised early on to create an interest map where we 0:57:48.680 --> 0:57:51.280 go through the list of every coworker that we have 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:54.200 and talk about like how well do we know them? 0:57:54.520 --> 0:57:56.440 Do we think they would be down? Like, well, this 0:57:56.480 --> 0:58:00.760 person would obviously be down. This person, I guess we'll 0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:04.000 just have to talk to them and see and apart 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:07.680 from a few cases, it has been very successful and 0:58:07.760 --> 0:58:12.480 easy so far. It's really lucky that almost all of 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:14.080 our coworkers are comrades. 0:58:14.680 --> 0:58:14.880 Yeah. 0:58:14.920 --> 0:58:18.120 I think like our first like conversation was I think 0:58:18.160 --> 0:58:20.800 about ten people at like a bar close to like 0:58:21.200 --> 0:58:24.360 the main Hawthorn shop, and like once we had like 0:58:24.480 --> 0:58:28.000 that get together. Yeah, it really became about like, you know, 0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:31.880 how do we get our satellite locations, you know, on 0:58:31.880 --> 0:58:34.800 this on the same page, you know, with like a 0:58:34.840 --> 0:58:37.960 super majority at one shop, you know, then just moving 0:58:38.000 --> 0:58:40.720 on to you know our little you know, the Pioneer 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:44.040 food cart and then our Commissary kitchen and then the 0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:49.080 Mississippi location. That was just you know, hiring a whole 0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:52.760 new staff for and you know, getting them in, you know, 0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:56.600 collecting them into the fold. And yeah, iww was very 0:58:56.600 --> 0:58:58.760 helpful and like how to like kind of create those 0:58:58.800 --> 0:59:03.560 processes to like ensure that you know, we were approaching 0:59:03.600 --> 0:59:07.080 people in the right way. And yeah, have it getting 0:59:07.080 --> 0:59:08.880 a proper headcount? 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:16.480 Yeah that can be a disaster. Yeah, oh god, Like 0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:19.800 my union, we're still trying to hash out whether some 0:59:19.840 --> 0:59:21.680 people are in the union or not, and like people 0:59:21.680 --> 0:59:24.160 will leave the company. Then this happens all the time, right, 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.760 Like one of the things you discovered really quickly when 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:29.800 you need a union organizing is that your like management 0:59:29.920 --> 0:59:33.960 doesn't actually know how anything works, or like even who's 0:59:34.000 --> 0:59:36.840 working for them and what they do. They have absolutely 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:39.480 no idea, and so you have to do their job 0:59:39.560 --> 0:59:41.200 and figure out what everyone does. 0:59:42.560 --> 0:59:47.480 What management would be so mad at you for saying blasphemy. 0:59:48.200 --> 0:59:50.280 You know, look if they if they did, if they 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:52.640 didn't want me to talk negatively about they should pay 0:59:52.680 --> 0:59:56.360 me more. They simply do not pay any of us enough. 0:59:57.120 --> 1:00:01.840 That's not the universal from time to time. Yeah, yeah, 1:00:01.880 --> 1:00:04.040 but I think that you know what's interesting about this 1:00:04.120 --> 1:00:06.560 shop too, is it really seems like y'all just sort 1:00:06.600 --> 1:00:10.520 of speed ran doing a good campaign, Like you're doing 1:00:10.560 --> 1:00:13.600 all of the things that you gif of good organizers. 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:15.320 But then you know, every once in a while you 1:00:15.360 --> 1:00:17.440 just get a shop where it's just kind of everything 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:18.920 just clicks and goes. 1:00:19.600 --> 1:00:23.080 It has been five months start to finish, which I 1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:26.920 feel like is significantly faster than most. Yeah, most of 1:00:26.920 --> 1:00:28.680 that is just down to that there aren't very many 1:00:28.760 --> 1:00:32.400 of us, and so talking to everyone hasn't been that 1:00:32.680 --> 1:00:33.880 crazy of an endeavor. 1:00:34.760 --> 1:00:35.560 Yeah, but. 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:41.440 I think probably in the first meeting or two, we 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:44.880 just crunch the numbers and realized, Okay, we're not going 1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:50.480 to have any trouble having a majority, but we have to. 1:00:51.200 --> 1:00:54.840 And so the focus of our work went into making 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:58.640 sure we do it right, and learning to inoculate people 1:00:58.680 --> 1:01:01.840 and talk to people we haven't talked to yet and 1:01:01.920 --> 1:01:03.840 people for whom it would be a little more sensitive 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:11.120 or more like in depth conversation, and educating ourselves on 1:01:11.400 --> 1:01:14.560 what starting a union actually looks like. And i WW 1:01:14.680 --> 1:01:19.840 has been very helpful providing these little trainings that I've 1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:21.680 been able to go to. It's funny is that they're 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:24.240 on Sunday afternoons, and so I'm pretty sure I'm the 1:01:24.280 --> 1:01:27.200 only person at our brunch restaurant who doesn't work Sunday afternoons, 1:01:27.240 --> 1:01:28.280 so I've been going to those. 1:01:28.760 --> 1:01:33.000 But yeah, this is something that like, I don't know, 1:01:33.800 --> 1:01:35.960 I feel like it should be a thing that so 1:01:36.000 --> 1:01:38.320 I was at this will I guess we'll have come 1:01:38.320 --> 1:01:40.280 out after the Labor Dights episode that I'm doing. But 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:43.760 something that I feel like I don't hear much discussion 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:47.160 of in union organizing that I feel like there should 1:01:47.200 --> 1:01:53.680 be is like fighting management on scheduling and like trying 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:57.560 to fight for you know, people actually a having consistent 1:01:57.600 --> 1:02:02.640 schedules and b not just having like I don't know, 1:02:02.760 --> 1:02:05.680 Like I know a lot of people who find out 1:02:05.680 --> 1:02:08.680 their schedule on Facebook, like four hours before they have 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:12.560 to go in, right, Like, that's insane. That is that 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:15.680 is not a way for industrial process to function. 1:02:15.920 --> 1:02:16.080 Right. 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:21.360 No, thankfully that has not been one of our issues 1:02:21.400 --> 1:02:24.160 at least at least not systemically at Ridick. 1:02:25.000 --> 1:02:26.880 Yeah, but but it does make it hard to do 1:02:26.960 --> 1:02:31.480 intro organizational trainings because it's like everyone has weird scheduling 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:33.840 stuff going on, so it's it's hard to like, I 1:02:33.880 --> 1:02:36.400 don't know, I feel like it's it's an underrated barrier 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:39.080 to getting a lot of people from different unions to 1:02:39.120 --> 1:02:41.960 work together. Is that no one is ever off at 1:02:41.960 --> 1:02:42.680 the same time. 1:02:43.280 --> 1:02:43.880 That's real. 1:02:44.280 --> 1:02:49.040 Yeah, absolutely, I know it's been it weird. I think 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:53.920 they're a huge aspect of our success I think is 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:56.920 that we have been able to like I think the 1:02:57.040 --> 1:03:01.000 unique part about the breakfast Place is that it's not 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:07.760 open from you know, am to PM. It's not open 1:03:07.840 --> 1:03:13.480 from ten am to eleven pm, like like a restaurant 1:03:13.560 --> 1:03:17.680 could potentially be open. We are open for breakfast. We're 1:03:17.720 --> 1:03:24.479 done at too on the weekdays and adding in a 1:03:25.120 --> 1:03:29.680 standing union meeting at four pm once a week was 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:33.200 very easy to add to everybody's schedule, I think, I 1:03:33.240 --> 1:03:36.320 think and the nature of the breakfast place led to 1:03:36.360 --> 1:03:38.800 that working very very easily. 1:03:39.520 --> 1:03:44.200 Yeah, and our coworkers that maybe need a little more 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:47.480 persuasion that like, hey, no, don't worry this is this 1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:49.400 is really happening, and you can be a part of it, 1:03:49.440 --> 1:03:51.200 even if you know that their pro union. Kind of 1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:54.440 getting the ball rolling with people sometimes takes a meeting 1:03:54.520 --> 1:03:58.640 or two and being able to have the peer pressure 1:03:58.840 --> 1:04:01.400 of like, hey, we're going into a meeting right now. 1:04:02.920 --> 1:04:05.120 I know you're not doing anything after this, and I'll 1:04:05.160 --> 1:04:08.520 give you a ride helps a lot because then they 1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:11.480 go to their meeting and they're like, wow, that was awesome. 1:04:11.520 --> 1:04:14.520 I never knew I could take control of my life 1:04:14.560 --> 1:04:15.080 in any way. 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:22.480 Yeah, that rules. There really is nothing like just being 1:04:22.680 --> 1:04:26.080 in a place with a bunch of people who all 1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:30.040 are trying to like actually do the thing, like you know, 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:31.720 I mean, I think this is why you know, like 1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:34.520 as we're recording this, like a bunch of campus occupations 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:37.040 are going right, and I mean, I don't know, God, 1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:41.040 hopefully by the time this comes out, they won't have 1:04:41.120 --> 1:04:45.040 all died horribly because this is getting recorded on what 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:51.280 day is it that April twenty eighth, so this is 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:55.120 being released into like hell world. But yeah, you know, 1:04:55.200 --> 1:04:57.160 I mean, I think one of one of the aspects 1:04:57.240 --> 1:05:00.760 of of of those camps is that like just there 1:05:01.400 --> 1:05:03.479 with a bunch of people who you get to talk 1:05:03.520 --> 1:05:07.320 to and organize with. And it turns out that actually 1:05:07.320 --> 1:05:09.080 being there face to face with a bunch of people 1:05:09.200 --> 1:05:11.200 is just great. And that's that's the thing. That's the thing. 1:05:11.200 --> 1:05:14.880 You can also like that you knows, as much as 1:05:14.920 --> 1:05:18.160 like union work can just can be work, right, it 1:05:18.200 --> 1:05:20.439 can be you sitting in front of a spreadsheet and going, 1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:23.200 oh my god, what this person responds like it's also 1:05:24.440 --> 1:05:26.880 I don't know, it's it's also like it could be 1:05:26.920 --> 1:05:30.640 really great and I don't know, you should you, dear 1:05:30.760 --> 1:05:33.080 listeners should experience it because it rules. 1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:36.640 I couldn't recommend it more. It is the best feeling 1:05:36.640 --> 1:05:39.960 in the world and soul and I are addicted to 1:05:40.000 --> 1:05:47.120 it to feel like you're actually doing anything real. Hell, yeah, 1:05:47.120 --> 1:05:47.800 it's incredible. 1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:52.680 That's yeah. Something we heard from IW or IWW friends 1:05:52.680 --> 1:05:55.800 is that like this, like, especially with how early in 1:05:55.800 --> 1:05:57.880 the process we are like how exciting that is to 1:05:57.920 --> 1:06:02.080 like skitter everybody but everybody in a room and I 1:06:02.120 --> 1:06:04.000 feel like we're all working towards the same thing. 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:06.600 Yeah, and that. 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:11.960 You do get addicted to it. And that's often where 1:06:12.000 --> 1:06:16.120 the union organizers came from, was like starting their own 1:06:16.560 --> 1:06:19.160 and they're like, oh, I need to keep doing this. 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:22.640 Yeah. 1:06:24.600 --> 1:06:26.160 I think I think that's a pretty good doe to 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:28.200 end on, unless you do have anything else that you 1:06:28.240 --> 1:06:29.480 want to make sure we get you first. 1:06:30.120 --> 1:06:33.520 Yeah, with like how early in the process we are 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:37.480 after this comes out, like we will have like dropped 1:06:37.480 --> 1:06:40.800 our authorization cards and like actually started like the formal process. 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:44.000 Like we're still pretty early on, but we already have 1:06:45.520 --> 1:06:48.479 a fundraiser setup with like a local beer bar. We're 1:06:48.520 --> 1:06:54.800 at Workers Sat. Hell Yeah, and that's super exciting. And 1:06:54.840 --> 1:07:00.840 we're building our socials and probably have a go fundme 1:07:00.960 --> 1:07:06.360 for strike fundraiser. So yeah, early days, but very exciting, 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:08.560 very purposeful days. 1:07:08.960 --> 1:07:09.880 It's gonna be a big week. 1:07:10.240 --> 1:07:13.280 Hell yeah. Yeah. Where where can people go to find 1:07:13.320 --> 1:07:15.400 the union and go to support you all? 1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:18.720 Well, our socials are not live. 1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:21.200 Yet, but all right, so yeah, this is this, this 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:24.120 is being recorded before things go live. We will we 1:07:24.160 --> 1:07:25.680 will have the links down there. 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:30.920 Yeah, we I think we're settling on the tag the 1:07:31.080 --> 1:07:34.720 user name fried egg w U, which we are saying 1:07:34.760 --> 1:07:38.840 foo woo about because you know, you gotta you gotta, 1:07:38.920 --> 1:07:40.080 you gotta make you gotta. 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:44.200 Make this fun. But yes, we will be. Yeah, we 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:45.440 will be sharing that with you. 1:07:45.880 --> 1:07:48.000 I'm glad you knew because I wasn't sure if if 1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:53.200 we had a handle agreed upon yet. Yeah, well find 1:07:53.240 --> 1:07:55.080 us on the socials fried egg. 1:07:55.240 --> 1:07:59.240 W U with it being early days and like us 1:07:59.280 --> 1:08:02.680 not even being public yet. I've built those accounts, but 1:08:02.720 --> 1:08:05.480 they're not like not ready to go. So there's that, 1:08:05.680 --> 1:08:10.160 like we're in this dead zone period where we've built 1:08:10.200 --> 1:08:14.280 the infrastructure for a proper you know, the proper election, 1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:18.639 even though we are very hopeful that our owner will 1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:22.120 recognize us with you know, the majority that we have. 1:08:22.760 --> 1:08:26.640 But yeah, we're our zero day is May Day, a 1:08:26.680 --> 1:08:28.679 couple of days from now, and we are very excited 1:08:28.680 --> 1:08:30.320 for that very much. 1:08:30.360 --> 1:08:33.240 So hell yeah, hopefully it goes well. It will be 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:35.920 in the past by time this comes out, But good 1:08:36.000 --> 1:08:38.479 luck to both of you, and thank you both so 1:08:38.560 --> 1:08:40.360 much for coming on now. 1:08:40.439 --> 1:08:43.240 The pleasure belongs to us. We're both fans than for 1:08:43.560 --> 1:08:44.280 having us on. 1:08:44.520 --> 1:08:48.439 Yeah, and yeah does this has been naked happen here? 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:52.200 You too can go experience the joys of organizing your workplace. 1:08:52.280 --> 1:08:54.679 So go go do that or go to a student occupation, 1:08:54.920 --> 1:08:55.280 do both. 1:08:55.320 --> 1:08:57.519 I don't know. There's a lot going on that. 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:00.280 There are many places for you to experience the shory 1:09:00.320 --> 1:09:03.280 of organizing with other people, so go go do that. 1:09:04.080 --> 1:09:09.200 And yeah, you can find us in the usual places. 1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:09.800 I don't know. 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:12.960 Sophie will probably be on it in about one second. 1:09:13.200 --> 1:09:18.000 This ad pivot not whatever this is got completely off 1:09:18.000 --> 1:09:18.360 the rails. 1:09:18.360 --> 1:09:23.680 I have not had it off sleep, no sleep for organizing. 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:37.080 Welcome, take it happen here. I'm Andrew Sage of the 1:09:37.080 --> 1:09:40.799 YouTube channel andrasm and I'm here with James. 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:42.439 Yeah, it's me and andre again. 1:09:42.760 --> 1:09:46.880 Yes, once again. So I recently dropped a video on states, 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:49.479 or more pointedly, a video that's sorts of define the 1:09:49.520 --> 1:09:53.240 state and its functions, synthesize its critique by anarchists, and 1:09:53.439 --> 1:09:57.839 basically understand the ways that states feel both society and nature. 1:09:58.280 --> 1:10:01.599 So we can let goose states, inevitabilit and think outside 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:04.439 of it to realize the freedom and power of all 1:10:04.439 --> 1:10:09.719 the people most people aren't anarchists, unfortunately, but I've noticed 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:13.920 that generally speaking, some folks are more receptive to anarchist 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:17.919 ideas and others just seem to shut down without engaging 1:10:17.960 --> 1:10:21.439 with it earnestly or meaningfully. You get a mix of 1:10:21.479 --> 1:10:25.479 those reactions in my comments, so overwhelmingly toward the receptive side, 1:10:25.520 --> 1:10:29.200 because I mean, that's the kind of intellectual curiosity I 1:10:29.240 --> 1:10:34.080 tried to attract my space, But the more hostile reactions 1:10:34.120 --> 1:10:36.000 had me thinking about a book that I read many 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:39.400 years ago and their video on years after that was 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:43.800 called The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. So once take another 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:46.200 look at the ideas in that book, because even though 1:10:46.240 --> 1:10:50.600 Ultimid doesn't land in any truly radical conclusions, his scholarship, 1:10:50.600 --> 1:10:53.360 in my opinion, gets us closer to understanding the psychology 1:10:53.400 --> 1:10:59.400 of both authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders. Also rest in Peace. 1:10:59.560 --> 1:11:01.720 I found that he died when I was preparing this, 1:11:02.200 --> 1:11:06.600 just this year in February, but that aside. We'll be 1:11:06.640 --> 1:11:09.479 talking about the former first, and that is what's up 1:11:09.680 --> 1:11:14.320 with authoritarian followers. Let's get into it first. We need 1:11:14.320 --> 1:11:16.800 some context. So in the wake of World War two, 1:11:16.880 --> 1:11:20.160 social scientists sought an explanation for the evils perpetuated by 1:11:20.160 --> 1:11:24.000 the Nazi government during the war. Theodore W. A'dno Els, 1:11:24.080 --> 1:11:28.800 Frankel Brunswick, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sandford published The Authoritarian 1:11:28.840 --> 1:11:33.320 Personality in nineteen fifty, proposing a personality type for the 1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:38.480 fascist follower ranked on an F scale. They particularly concentrated 1:11:38.479 --> 1:11:42.360 on prejudice within the psychoanalytic and psychosocial frameworks of Freudian 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:46.840 and Fromian theories. Their work was highly critiqued, but it 1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:49.640 was also highly influential in laying the groundwork for our 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:54.040 understanding of authoritarian personalities. In the aftermath of Adorno and 1:11:54.120 --> 1:11:57.479 Company's book, social scientists will continue to tweak, develop and 1:11:57.520 --> 1:12:02.040 expand our understanding of authoritarian psychology. Most notably, the concept 1:12:02.040 --> 1:12:06.080 will be refined by Bob Altemeyer, a Canadian American psychology professor, 1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:10.360 proposed the right wing authoritarian personality in nineteen eighty one. 1:12:10.439 --> 1:12:14.479 After numerous studies, Altimyer presented his findings in his free 1:12:14.479 --> 1:12:17.880 book The Authoritarians in two thousand and six. I had 1:12:17.920 --> 1:12:20.400 to clarify, though right wing here is not being used 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:22.800 in the context of the political spectrum, which is a 1:12:22.840 --> 1:12:26.880 concept thats to n scrutiny. In this context, Ultimaya uses 1:12:26.880 --> 1:12:28.679 the word right in the sense of the old English 1:12:28.760 --> 1:12:34.000 writ an adjective for lawful and proper. Aultimia defines authoritarianism 1:12:34.120 --> 1:12:37.960 as quote, something authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders cook up 1:12:37.960 --> 1:12:41.360 between themselves. It happens when the followers submit too much 1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:43.960 to the leaders, trust them too much, and get them 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:46.519 too much leeway to do whatever they want, which often 1:12:46.560 --> 1:12:51.559 is something undemocratic, tyrannical, and brutal unquote. I find this 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:56.000 definition of authoritarianism lacking, but a monarchist so of course 1:12:56.040 --> 1:12:59.600 I would to me, if authority is defined as the 1:12:59.640 --> 1:13:03.000 record is right above others in a social relationship to 1:13:03.080 --> 1:13:07.240 give commands, make decisions, and enforce obedience, then I would 1:13:07.240 --> 1:13:10.960 define authoritarianism as a matter of degree to which you 1:13:11.000 --> 1:13:14.120 uphold the principle of authority. I think many people are 1:13:14.120 --> 1:13:18.200 at least authoritarian light because that's the status go unfortunately. 1:13:18.680 --> 1:13:22.120 But more specifically, I think the people we call authoritarians 1:13:22.360 --> 1:13:25.840 are those which are especially invested in the enforcement or 1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:29.320 advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of 1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:34.280 freedom and plurality. So right, being authoritarian followers or RWAs 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:39.000 are those which overwhelmingly support the established authorities in their society, 1:13:39.320 --> 1:13:43.599 like government officials, arms of the state, and traditional religious leaders. 1:13:43.640 --> 1:13:47.200 In North America and elsewhere, r was tend to be 1:13:47.920 --> 1:13:50.360 or other. I should say high r WA is because 1:13:50.479 --> 1:13:53.240 the RWA thing is a scale, but the high art 1:13:53.320 --> 1:13:57.120 ws tend to be political conservatives. However, that doesn't mean 1:13:57.120 --> 1:14:01.720 the authority and personality is exclusive to conservatives, no, as 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:04.960 exclusive to North America, but the scale is definitely tailored 1:14:04.960 --> 1:14:08.200 to a North American and English speaking audience, lendin to 1:14:08.280 --> 1:14:12.920 its documented issues that translate into other regions, But with effort, 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:15.240 I could definitely see it being adapted to other cultural 1:14:15.280 --> 1:14:18.839 contexts as well. And as also my argues, the concept 1:14:18.840 --> 1:14:21.759 of the right wing authoritarian could equally apply to society 1:14:21.760 --> 1:14:24.920 with the established authorities claimed to be represent in the left. 1:14:26.520 --> 1:14:31.360 So what defines the right wing authority and personality? Psychologically speaking? 1:14:32.600 --> 1:14:37.559 They feature three primary traits or attitudes. For one, a 1:14:37.640 --> 1:14:40.559 high degree of submission to authorities were perceived to be 1:14:40.680 --> 1:14:44.800 established and legitimate in the society in which one lives. Two, 1:14:45.200 --> 1:14:49.000 a general aggressiveness directed against various persons that is perceived 1:14:49.000 --> 1:14:54.160 to be sanctioned by established authorities, and three a high 1:14:54.160 --> 1:14:57.280 degree of adherence to the social conventions that are perceived 1:14:57.280 --> 1:15:02.599 to be endorsed by society and its establish authorities. These 1:15:02.640 --> 1:15:05.840 traits are measured with the Right Wing Authoritarianism Scale or 1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:09.920 RWA scale for short. It's readily accessible online, so I'm 1:15:09.920 --> 1:15:12.160 not going to go through the entire scale point by point, 1:15:12.600 --> 1:15:15.400 but basically includes a mixed series of statements that folks 1:15:15.479 --> 1:15:19.680 can indicate their level of agreement or disagreement with. Statements 1:15:19.760 --> 1:15:21.840 like our country will be great if we on other 1:15:21.880 --> 1:15:24.720 ways of our forefathers, do the authorities tell us to 1:15:24.760 --> 1:15:26.640 do and get rid of the rotten apples who are 1:15:26.720 --> 1:15:30.759 ruining everything, or what our country really needs is a strong, 1:15:30.840 --> 1:15:33.320 de tillman leader who will crush evil and take us 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:36.439 back to our true path. And just to mix things up. 1:15:36.880 --> 1:15:39.280 A woman's place should be wherever she wants to be. 1:15:39.720 --> 1:15:41.920 The days when women were submissive to their husbands and 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:46.360 social conventions belong strictly in the past. As you could imagine, 1:15:46.439 --> 1:15:48.640 the degree to which you agree or disagree with these 1:15:48.640 --> 1:15:52.360 statements would place you somewhere along the scale. The lowest 1:15:52.360 --> 1:15:55.040 total possible score and ultimized version of the test would 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:57.840 be twenty and the highest one hundred and eighty, but 1:15:58.000 --> 1:16:00.600 most people low hit either extreme. A sample of one 1:16:00.600 --> 1:16:03.200 thousand Americans in two thousand and five found that the 1:16:03.240 --> 1:16:08.320 average score was ninety. Technically speaking, high RWAs are just 1:16:08.360 --> 1:16:11.720 people who score higher than the average population, so it's 1:16:11.760 --> 1:16:16.679 really a relative to Also another disclaimer, in the context 1:16:16.720 --> 1:16:21.640 of psychological studies, personality tests can definitely make mistakes about individuals, 1:16:21.960 --> 1:16:24.639 so it's not a diagnostic tool for individuals to determine 1:16:24.640 --> 1:16:27.839 if they make a good storm trooper. However, the scale 1:16:27.920 --> 1:16:33.000 can reliably identify levels of authoritarianism in groups. Also, keep 1:16:33.040 --> 1:16:35.439 in mind that stuff like the interpretation of wording and 1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:37.479 fore knowledge of what the test is trying to measure 1:16:37.800 --> 1:16:41.599 can definitely influence results. Still, this tool has been used 1:16:41.640 --> 1:16:45.200 for most of Altimayer's research and authoritarianism, so it's good 1:16:45.240 --> 1:16:47.640 to be familiar with it. So now you may be 1:16:47.640 --> 1:16:51.520 wondering how well does the RWA skills measurement of submission, aggression, 1:16:51.520 --> 1:16:57.240 and conventionalism map onto people's reality. So for submission, higher 1:16:57.320 --> 1:17:00.840 RWAs tend to believe that people should submit authority in 1:17:00.880 --> 1:17:04.040 almost all circumstances, so they put a lot of trust 1:17:04.120 --> 1:17:07.520 in the law and the authorities. Maybe not all authorities 1:17:07.560 --> 1:17:10.360 and every single circumstance, but they definitely bought into the 1:17:10.400 --> 1:17:14.479 concept itself. They're the types who trusted Nixon during and 1:17:14.560 --> 1:17:18.160 even after the Watergate crisis, likely the ones in Germany 1:17:18.160 --> 1:17:20.599 in nineteen forty five who refused to believe that Hitler 1:17:20.640 --> 1:17:24.000 was responsible for the Holocaust, the type to rapidly support 1:17:24.040 --> 1:17:28.479 anti terrorist initiatives, no matter how invasive. Throughout his research, 1:17:28.560 --> 1:17:31.599 Altimhere found that high ars are far more likely to 1:17:31.600 --> 1:17:36.280 tolerate police burglaries, drug rades without warrants, police crackdowns on 1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:41.320 peaceful protests, subversion via Ajan's provocateurs, and so on, as 1:17:41.320 --> 1:17:46.040 far as they're concerned, Father knows best. Their favorite authorities 1:17:46.080 --> 1:17:49.800 are above the law, But like I said, they don't 1:17:49.840 --> 1:17:53.760 always submit. Their blind support can be trumped by other concerns, 1:17:54.080 --> 1:17:56.519 but most times they're not big fans of holding officials 1:17:56.520 --> 1:18:00.240 accountable for their actions. They really don't care if a 1:18:00.280 --> 1:18:03.280 cop kill someone in broad daylight or someone drives through 1:18:03.320 --> 1:18:08.720 a crowd of protesters on the street. In terms of aggression, 1:18:09.360 --> 1:18:12.200 higher w is aggress when they believe right and might 1:18:12.360 --> 1:18:16.560 on their side. Right meaning their hostility is authority approved 1:18:17.200 --> 1:18:20.640 might meaning they have a physical, tactical, or numerical advantage 1:18:20.680 --> 1:18:24.000 over their target. They don't fight far, and just like 1:18:24.080 --> 1:18:27.120 they go easy on authorities who commit crimes, they go 1:18:27.200 --> 1:18:30.439 easy on anyone who attacks people they're prejudiced against. But 1:18:30.479 --> 1:18:32.920 they definitely don't go easy on the people they hate. 1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:35.959 They seek to sentence criminals to longer terms than average, 1:18:36.160 --> 1:18:39.000 and as some of the loudest supporters of capital punishment. 1:18:39.600 --> 1:18:43.160 And if they hate one group, bet your bottom dollar 1:18:43.200 --> 1:18:46.240 they probably hate other groups too. You could call them 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:50.439 equal opportunity bigots. Chances are if they hate immigrants or 1:18:50.520 --> 1:18:53.439 trans people, those are not going to be the only 1:18:53.479 --> 1:18:56.320 targets of their ire. Their pressures has more to do 1:18:56.360 --> 1:19:02.040 with their own personality than their targets actual attributes. Still, 1:19:02.080 --> 1:19:04.839 they don't always aggress when they think the proper authorities approve, 1:19:05.439 --> 1:19:08.080 just that they don't always submit. They are always more 1:19:08.120 --> 1:19:11.519 factors that play in any given situation, including a fear 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:16.280 of counter aggression or consequences that may hold their hostilities. 1:19:17.960 --> 1:19:22.280 Regarding conventionalism, higher ws believe that everyone should live by 1:19:22.280 --> 1:19:27.360 the norms that their authorities have decreed. Whilst like culturalism, plurality, diversity. 1:19:27.760 --> 1:19:30.000 Those things clash with what they consider correct and what 1:19:30.000 --> 1:19:34.040 they consider wrong. They usually get their ideas from fundamentalists religions, 1:19:34.160 --> 1:19:36.840 so you'll find that higher WA's are strong advocates for 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:41.519 the traditional family structure, with patriarchal husbands, submissive wives, and 1:19:41.600 --> 1:19:45.240 obedient children. They're also far more likely to support their 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:50.760 governments patriotic version of various historical narratives. Most interestingly, their 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:54.000 conventionalism even influences their response to the high r W 1:19:54.280 --> 1:19:57.880 test itself. If they were totally average response for a 1:19:57.920 --> 1:20:00.680 statement on the test, they were far more likely to 1:20:00.720 --> 1:20:04.080 adjust their answers to the mean than most. When asked 1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:06.240 what they would like their own RWA score to be, 1:20:07.160 --> 1:20:09.920 low rbs said they would like to be low rw's, 1:20:10.320 --> 1:20:12.719 middle or w is said they'd like to be lower w's, 1:20:13.520 --> 1:20:16.160 but higher ws said they want to be middles, not 1:20:16.320 --> 1:20:20.800 lows or highs. Why because they tend to rank being 1:20:20.880 --> 1:20:25.760 normal very highly in values tests. Also, just because they 1:20:25.800 --> 1:20:27.080 want to be normal, let's mean they don't want to 1:20:27.120 --> 1:20:30.200 be richer or smarter than others. Not doesn't mean they're 1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:34.160 necessarily going to drop their prejudices. They may get tugged slightly, 1:20:34.680 --> 1:20:37.120 like with there's somewhat decrease in prejudice against gay people 1:20:37.160 --> 1:20:42.080 after the legalization of gay marriage. But their normal is 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:45.040 often a measure of what's normal in their in group. 1:20:45.400 --> 1:20:47.400 So if it's still normal in their in group to 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:51.840 be violently homophobic, more than likely they will still be 1:20:51.920 --> 1:20:52.960 violently homophobic. 1:20:53.439 --> 1:20:56.560 Their conformity is the value rather than specific bigotry or 1:20:56.600 --> 1:21:01.080 what have you. Yeah, talking of conformed Andrew, we have 1:21:01.160 --> 1:21:03.479 to conform to the needs of sponsors of this show 1:21:03.720 --> 1:21:10.519 right now, and we're back. 1:21:11.240 --> 1:21:14.559 Yes, so, Alse my husband lightly critiqued for rendering r 1:21:14.720 --> 1:21:19.240 W as the dominant psychological account of authoritarianism. Of course, 1:21:19.280 --> 1:21:22.519 it makes sense that has been the focus, considering the 1:21:22.560 --> 1:21:25.280 study of authoritarian personality was born out of post World 1:21:25.280 --> 1:21:29.000 War two studies of fascists. Right wing authoritarians often fever 1:21:29.240 --> 1:21:33.839 established absolutist forms of government and weaponize that presently dominate 1:21:33.920 --> 1:21:39.120 in hierarchy to facilitate said absolutism. But there are authoritarians 1:21:39.120 --> 1:21:43.520 who also favor absolutist forms of government with slight differences, 1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:46.960 believe n that the presently dominated in hierarchy should be 1:21:47.000 --> 1:21:53.000 overthrown and replaced with their own. These have potentially been 1:21:53.040 --> 1:21:57.040 called left wing authoritarians, even though the right and right 1:21:57.040 --> 1:22:00.479 wing authoritarians didn't have anything to do with the political spectrum. 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:04.799 Let's keep pushing. In chapter nine of The Authoritarian Inspector, 1:22:06.280 --> 1:22:12.160 Altemeyer conceptualizes left wing authoritarianism or LWA as also composed 1:22:12.200 --> 1:22:17.360 of submission, aggression, and conventionalism, so essentially LWA is a 1:22:17.360 --> 1:22:22.640 subcategory of RWAs. He's also quick to point out not 1:22:22.720 --> 1:22:27.600 all leftists are LAS, but as he describes them, l 1:22:27.720 --> 1:22:32.080 WA's are revolutionaries who one submit to movement leaders who 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:36.519 must be obeyed aka submission, two have enemies who must 1:22:36.560 --> 1:22:42.559 be ruined from capitalists to counter revolutionaries aka aggression, and 1:22:42.800 --> 1:22:46.679 three have rules and party discipline that must be followed 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:54.120 aka conventionalism. In essence, authoritarianism is psychological. R WAS support 1:22:54.160 --> 1:22:58.439 the established authorities, LAS oppose them in favor of their own, 1:22:58.920 --> 1:23:04.040 but the underlying positional core is still authoritarianism. But the 1:23:04.080 --> 1:23:07.720 focus is on AR debays in general here concerning these 1:23:07.760 --> 1:23:11.160 traits submission, aggression, and conventionalism, it's clear that people with 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:14.960 right wing and thworitaring and personalities are rather dangerous. They 1:23:14.960 --> 1:23:18.759 find it easier to bully harass, punish, name, torture, eliminate, 1:23:18.800 --> 1:23:22.599 and exterminate their victims than most people do. They're more 1:23:22.640 --> 1:23:25.880 willing to join mobs and militias, more likely to blame 1:23:25.960 --> 1:23:29.200 victims for their misfortune, and more likely to condemn common 1:23:29.200 --> 1:23:33.519 criminals to long brutal sentences in jail. They seem to 1:23:33.560 --> 1:23:36.439 have a lot of hostility boiling away inside them that 1:23:36.439 --> 1:23:40.439 their authorities can easily unleash. So we have to ask 1:23:40.680 --> 1:23:46.280 what causes this? Why are they like this? According to 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:50.679 Albert Bandura's social learning theory of aggression, aggression occurs after 1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:54.960 two conditions are met. Firstly, some feelings like anger or 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:59.920 envy lead us to a hostility. Secondly, inhibitions or content 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:03.160 actual restraints against release in that hostility would have to 1:24:03.160 --> 1:24:07.120 be overcome. Only then can the aggression erupt and flow. 1:24:07.960 --> 1:24:12.080 So let's discuss the instigator and releaser of authoritarian aggression. 1:24:13.360 --> 1:24:19.320 High days are highly motivated by fear, like they have 1:24:19.360 --> 1:24:21.880 an extra dose of fair response in their genes more 1:24:21.880 --> 1:24:25.000 than most people. They probably learn to be fearful from 1:24:25.040 --> 1:24:30.160 their parents about all kinds of things. You know, radicals, atheists, kidnappers, 1:24:30.240 --> 1:24:32.800 queer people, et cetera, et cetera. They grew up in 1:24:32.840 --> 1:24:35.280 a scarier world than most, which is probably why they 1:24:35.320 --> 1:24:39.360 tend to score so highly on the Dangerous World Scale. 1:24:39.520 --> 1:24:43.719 That scale, like previous scales, provides statements and measures levels 1:24:43.720 --> 1:24:46.840 of agreement or disagreement with stuff like quote, If our 1:24:46.840 --> 1:24:49.599 society keeps degenerating the way it has been lately, it's 1:24:49.680 --> 1:24:52.160 liable to collapse like a rotten dog, and everything will 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:56.000 be chaos and quote any day now, chaos and anarchy 1:24:56.040 --> 1:24:58.760 could erupt around us. All the signs are pointed to it, 1:24:59.280 --> 1:25:03.479 and cou everything to them is a sign of the times, 1:25:03.720 --> 1:25:07.640 a perversion corrupt in society in peaceful times and in 1:25:07.720 --> 1:25:12.599 generally dangerous ones. Higher ways feel threatened. But what releases 1:25:12.640 --> 1:25:16.040 that aggressive impulse to act? Also, I have found, more 1:25:16.080 --> 1:25:21.280 than anything else self righteousness. Of course, almost everyone thinks 1:25:21.280 --> 1:25:24.759 they're a bit more moral than average, but higher ways 1:25:25.280 --> 1:25:28.000 they tend to think they're the holy ones, the chosen, 1:25:28.280 --> 1:25:34.719 the righteous. That empowers them to isolate, segregate, humiliate, persecute, harass, beat, 1:25:34.840 --> 1:25:39.559 and kill. That self righteousness, combined with their high scores 1:25:39.560 --> 1:25:42.920 on the Dangerous World scale, is what empowers their prejudice, 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:46.439 their heavy handedness, their means spiritedness and their eagerness to 1:25:46.520 --> 1:25:53.839 crusade against the other. So how do highs become higher WA's? 1:25:54.800 --> 1:25:59.200 Are they born that way? Possibly? Do their parents make 1:25:59.240 --> 1:26:03.000 them that way somewhat but not completely? See no one 1:26:03.000 --> 1:26:11.160 as a complete carbon copy of their parents. So what 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:17.840 determines a person's position on the art of experience? Our 1:26:17.880 --> 1:26:21.000 life experiences teach us lessons that our parents and payers 1:26:21.000 --> 1:26:25.200 may not, or experiences with authorities shape or perception of authority. 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:30.000 Especially when someone hits adolescens, they tend to chafe against authority, 1:26:30.400 --> 1:26:34.360 even if they submitted to authority as children, those hormonal urges, 1:26:34.479 --> 1:26:37.920 desires for austronomy, and new experiences could shake up their 1:26:37.920 --> 1:26:43.800 early lessons completely. Experiences could either end up reinforcing the 1:26:43.840 --> 1:26:48.560 authorities teachings or contradicting them entirely. Naturally, it's easier for 1:26:48.640 --> 1:26:52.360 kids from authoritarian homes to remain authoritarian and vice versa. 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:56.920 But ultimately experiences do most of the shape middle or 1:26:57.080 --> 1:27:00.160 ways have some mix of experiences and upbringing that keep 1:27:00.280 --> 1:27:04.200 them in the middle. When it comes to higher was, 1:27:04.840 --> 1:27:09.200 their experiences were probably very controlled. Authoritarian followers usually live 1:27:09.240 --> 1:27:13.519 in a homogeneous bubble of patriotic, traditional people an echo 1:27:13.600 --> 1:27:17.160 chamber apart from the evils of the world, safely kept 1:27:17.160 --> 1:27:20.080 on a short leash for most of their lives. But 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:23.639 I just hope yet. Automid's research has shown that higher 1:27:23.720 --> 1:27:27.200 ws can change if they have some important life experiences. 1:27:27.920 --> 1:27:30.679 That's why university can be such a game change of people. 1:27:31.479 --> 1:27:36.439 It's just meeting new people, leaving that small, enclosed world 1:27:36.479 --> 1:27:39.479 and developing relationships with people of different walks of life, 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:44.400 and that makes a big difference. There are a couple 1:27:44.360 --> 1:27:49.240 of traits that make higher ws such good followers for 1:27:49.320 --> 1:27:54.599 would be dictators. In short, those traits are illogical thinking, 1:27:55.120 --> 1:28:03.240 highly compartmentalized minds, double standards, hypocrisy, a lack of self awareness, ethnocentrism, dogmatism. 1:28:03.520 --> 1:28:09.400 In long well, consider syllogism. All fish live in the sea. 1:28:10.320 --> 1:28:16.400 Sharks live in the sea, therefore sharks are fish. Logically speaking, 1:28:16.680 --> 1:28:20.960 the conclusion doesn't follow. Even if sharks are fish, and 1:28:21.160 --> 1:28:25.280 they are the premises don't support the conclusion. But if 1:28:25.320 --> 1:28:28.439 higher WA's were asked if the reasoning was correct, they 1:28:28.439 --> 1:28:30.360 were more likely than most to say that it was. 1:28:31.400 --> 1:28:37.000 When asked why they'd answer because sharks are fish. In essence, 1:28:37.360 --> 1:28:41.479 because they agreed with the conclusion, they assumed the reasoning 1:28:41.640 --> 1:28:45.120 was right. That simple test shows that if authority and 1:28:45.120 --> 1:28:50.599 followers like the conclusion, the logic involved is fairly irrelevant. 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:53.880 Reasoning is what should justify the conclusion, but as far 1:28:53.880 --> 1:28:59.400 as they're concerned, the conclusion valuates the reasoning. Of course, 1:28:59.600 --> 1:29:02.120 let me not overstate a lot of people have trouble 1:29:02.160 --> 1:29:05.519 with so logistic reasoning. Higher w has just happen to 1:29:05.520 --> 1:29:09.120 be slightly more likely to make such mistakes, but higher 1:29:09.200 --> 1:29:11.639 de wus generally have more trouble than most people do 1:29:11.720 --> 1:29:14.679 realize in a conclusion as faults, they have a harder 1:29:14.680 --> 1:29:18.040 time determine whether empirical evidence proves or doesn't prove something. 1:29:18.840 --> 1:29:22.360 They more easily fill gaps in science with supernatural forces, 1:29:23.120 --> 1:29:25.920 and they have trouble being critical of anything unless they've 1:29:25.920 --> 1:29:30.600 already gotten their talking points from their authorities. Regarding the 1:29:30.760 --> 1:29:35.000 highly compartmentalized minds, I mean, we all have some inconsistencies 1:29:35.080 --> 1:29:38.559 not thinking, but their minds as be like oil and water. 1:29:39.320 --> 1:29:41.800 One second they say in free speech, next they say 1:29:41.800 --> 1:29:44.679 in ban critical race theory. One moment they're talking about 1:29:44.720 --> 1:29:47.800 individual freedom, and next their basically throat in the boots 1:29:47.800 --> 1:29:51.320 of the state. They don't merge files in their brain 1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:53.360 to really see what fits. They sense to just pick 1:29:53.439 --> 1:29:57.719 up whatever their demogogues are saying. And if your mind 1:29:57.760 --> 1:29:59.600 is such a mess of contradiction, so you're going to 1:29:59.680 --> 1:30:02.600 end up a lot of double standards easily justify by 1:30:02.640 --> 1:30:05.160 whatever idea you hold it's most convenient in the moment. 1:30:06.000 --> 1:30:10.559 Principles are really irrelevant. Keep in mind the excuses they 1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:12.639 make for those in power and how hard they are 1:30:12.640 --> 1:30:16.040 in victims. Classic example is the difference between how they 1:30:16.040 --> 1:30:18.600 treat a prisoner who beats up another prisoner versus a 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:21.759 police officer who beats up a prisoner. Low d was 1:30:21.840 --> 1:30:26.000 usually don't have such stark double standards when it comes 1:30:26.000 --> 1:30:28.919 to hypocrisy. I'm going to keep you using this example 1:30:29.000 --> 1:30:32.320 because you know it's still somewhat topical critical race theory. 1:30:32.920 --> 1:30:35.400 As much as authoritarians accuse the left of being anti 1:30:35.439 --> 1:30:38.760 free speech, politically correct types, rda WA is a far 1:30:38.840 --> 1:30:41.680 more likely to report a desire to censor ideas they 1:30:41.680 --> 1:30:44.920 don't like. This is also because they tend to lack 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:48.200 basic self awareness. If presented with a list of things, 1:30:48.280 --> 1:30:51.760 right wing authoritarians are likely to do like be prejudiced, conformist, 1:30:51.760 --> 1:30:53.960 et cetera, and then ask how true it is of 1:30:54.000 --> 1:30:57.120 themselves compared to most other people. They really have no 1:30:57.240 --> 1:31:00.719 idea how different they actually are, and that's actually because 1:31:00.760 --> 1:31:04.519 of the bubble they tend to exist in us visus 1:31:04.520 --> 1:31:07.639 them is a very hard line in the sand for authoritarians. 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:11.160 Humans as a whole do have a tendency sometimes to 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:15.000 fall into tribal patterns of thinking, but authoritarians see the 1:31:15.040 --> 1:31:17.960 world far more sharply in terms of their in groups 1:31:18.000 --> 1:31:21.080 and our groups. And most we do tend to associate 1:31:21.120 --> 1:31:23.600 with people who agree with us in many issues. But 1:31:23.680 --> 1:31:26.519 authoritarians really do stick to their bubble of validation and 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:31.000 ethnocentric reinforcement. That's why they don't realize how pressureous, or 1:31:31.040 --> 1:31:33.880 aggressive or submissive they are to compare to most people. 1:31:35.200 --> 1:31:38.600 By avoiding challenges to their beliefs and holding faster their authorities, 1:31:39.080 --> 1:31:42.160 they remain stuck in a secular logic of I'm right 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:45.960 because the people I agree with say I'm right. Finally, 1:31:46.120 --> 1:31:51.760 in terms of dogmatism, higher ws holds to unchangeable, unjustified certainty, 1:31:52.600 --> 1:31:56.280 righteousness beyond a shadow of a doubt. They're more likely 1:31:56.320 --> 1:31:58.920 than most people to agree with statements like the things 1:31:58.920 --> 1:32:01.400 I believe in are so completely true, I could never 1:32:01.439 --> 1:32:04.559 doubt them, and there are no discoveries or facts that 1:32:04.560 --> 1:32:06.639 could possibly make me change my mind about the things 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:09.960 that matter most in life. I am absolutely certain the 1:32:10.120 --> 1:32:14.480 ideas about the fundamental issues in life are correct. Meanwhile, 1:32:14.840 --> 1:32:17.720 they're more likely than most people to disagree with statements 1:32:17.840 --> 1:32:21.040 like it's best to be open to all possibilities and 1:32:21.120 --> 1:32:25.120 ready to re evaluate all your beliefs. And flexibility is 1:32:25.160 --> 1:32:27.880 a real virtue in thinking, since you may very well 1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:32.560 be wrong when you receive or absorb, rather than contemplate, 1:32:32.560 --> 1:32:35.479 your beliefs, you have no basis upon which sho determine 1:32:35.479 --> 1:32:38.559 whether or not they're true. So you avoid challenges by 1:32:38.600 --> 1:32:41.680 staying in the bubble as much as possible. When that 1:32:41.760 --> 1:32:45.040 can be avoided, threatton out whatever talking points you got 1:32:45.080 --> 1:32:48.800 from wherever, and if that dialogue tree fails, you can 1:32:48.840 --> 1:32:51.439 always fall back in your group's assurance that you are right. 1:32:52.600 --> 1:32:56.000 I could challenge your beliefs, or you could insist your 1:32:56.080 --> 1:32:59.280 right and retreat. What option do you think high it 1:32:59.320 --> 1:33:02.760 will be a sentage use Yeah, the double down exactly. 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:07.800 Talkingtism is by far the best fall back defense, but 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:10.759 it's also the most blatant, that giveaway that the person 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:15.439 doesn't know why they believe what they believe. Alas hired 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:19.920 w is only one side of the authoritarian coin, then 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:23.759 nothing without their leaders. So next time we'll be talking 1:33:23.800 --> 1:33:30.679 about those leaders, those social dominators. Until then, all power 1:33:30.720 --> 1:33:43.840 to all the people. This, yes, welcome to it could 1:33:43.840 --> 1:33:48.440 happen here. I'm Andrew Sage of the YouTube channel Andrewism. 1:33:48.720 --> 1:33:50.360 Once again, I'm joined by. 1:33:51.160 --> 1:33:52.800 Jane and we go back in and I'm excited to 1:33:52.840 --> 1:33:55.720 learn more about authoritarian leaders this time right. 1:33:56.640 --> 1:33:59.400 Yes, last time we discussed the mind of the authoritarian 1:33:59.479 --> 1:34:03.080 follower thanks to the research of the late Bob Altemeier. 1:34:03.840 --> 1:34:07.479 You should definitely listen to the previous episode. But in summary, 1:34:07.520 --> 1:34:11.240 we looked at this concept of right wing authoritarianism, which 1:34:11.240 --> 1:34:15.240 refers to a personality type that features three primary traits 1:34:15.360 --> 1:34:18.640 or attitudes. First is a high degree of submission to 1:34:18.680 --> 1:34:21.800 authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in 1:34:21.840 --> 1:34:24.720 the societies in which one lives. The second is a 1:34:24.760 --> 1:34:28.320 general aggressiveness directed against various persons. It is perceived to 1:34:28.360 --> 1:34:32.040 be sanctioned by established authorities and the third is a 1:34:32.120 --> 1:34:36.280 high degree of adherence to the social conventions that are 1:34:36.320 --> 1:34:39.360 perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities. 1:34:40.600 --> 1:34:44.000 We also speculated the roots of authoritarian aggression and looked 1:34:44.000 --> 1:34:47.200 at the mind of the authoritarian follower, which demonstrates straits 1:34:47.240 --> 1:34:53.680 such as illogical thinking, highly compartmentalized minds, double standards, hypocrisy, 1:34:53.800 --> 1:34:58.400 and lack of self awareness, ethnic centrism, and dogmatism. Today, 1:34:58.560 --> 1:35:00.880 as promised, we're looking at the other side of the coin. 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:03.840 We're looking at the leaders, but also what we can 1:35:03.880 --> 1:35:07.800 do to address both followers and leaders. So let's begin. 1:35:08.920 --> 1:35:12.439 In nineteen ninety four, social psychologists Fleescher Prattu and Jim 1:35:12.479 --> 1:35:17.519 Sedanias presented the social dominance orientation test as a measure 1:35:17.560 --> 1:35:23.360 of belief in social inequality. Social dominators agreed with statements 1:35:23.439 --> 1:35:26.120 like code, this country would be better off if we 1:35:26.240 --> 1:35:30.000 cared less about how equal all people are and code 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:33.840 some people are just more worthy than others. While disagreeing 1:35:33.880 --> 1:35:37.120 with statements like code, if people were treated more equally, 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.719 we would have fewer problems in this country. Fellow social 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:44.240 psychologist Sam McFarland took their test and twenty one others, 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:47.280 including the Art of Way scale to determine which would 1:35:47.280 --> 1:35:51.160 be the best predictor of prejudice. His research found that 1:35:51.200 --> 1:35:55.120 only two of those tests, the social dominant orientation and 1:35:55.160 --> 1:35:58.640 the Art of Way, could do the job well. But 1:35:58.720 --> 1:36:01.320 the thing is, though, while both tests were able to 1:36:01.360 --> 1:36:06.720 identify prejudiced people, they will identifying different types of prejudice 1:36:06.760 --> 1:36:12.280 people with very little overlap. Social dominators and high art 1:36:12.280 --> 1:36:17.639 double ways authoritarians of two flavors. They have some things 1:36:17.720 --> 1:36:20.920 in common though, besides prejudice. They tend to support the 1:36:20.920 --> 1:36:24.840 same political parties. They tend to have shared economic philosophies, 1:36:25.960 --> 1:36:29.639 usually conservative on both counts, but they also have some 1:36:29.800 --> 1:36:35.320 huge differences, starting with a desire for power also why 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:38.280 I conducted two surveys with students that included the question 1:36:38.880 --> 1:36:41.599 how much power as in the ability to make adults 1:36:41.600 --> 1:36:43.599 do what you want? Do you want to have when 1:36:43.600 --> 1:36:47.240 you're forty years old? In this sense, automayer is using 1:36:47.320 --> 1:36:49.960 power in the sense of authority as I would define it. 1:36:50.200 --> 1:36:52.800 They recognized right above others in a social relationship to 1:36:52.840 --> 1:36:57.040 give commands, make decisions, and enforce obedience. So the scale 1:36:57.080 --> 1:36:59.840 went from zero meaning they don't care for it, to 1:37:00.439 --> 1:37:02.519 me and their goal is to have a great deal 1:37:02.520 --> 1:37:06.960 of authority. Social dominators consistently wanted to have much more 1:37:07.000 --> 1:37:13.360 power than most people did authority and followers did not. Now, obviously, 1:37:13.640 --> 1:37:17.240 people often want authority for different reasons, some more self 1:37:17.280 --> 1:37:21.800 righteous than others. But social dominators take thrill in authority 1:37:21.920 --> 1:37:25.200 in and of itself. Doesn't matter what the cause is, 1:37:25.400 --> 1:37:27.679 as long as they can control others in the process. 1:37:28.720 --> 1:37:31.800 There's another scale out to my users, the power Mad scale. 1:37:32.320 --> 1:37:35.799 On it, social dominators agree with statements like a mistake 1:37:35.800 --> 1:37:38.160 to interfere with the law of the jungle, some people 1:37:38.200 --> 1:37:41.679 were meant to dominate others, and do you enjoy taking 1:37:41.760 --> 1:37:43.880 charge of things and making people do things your way? 1:37:44.800 --> 1:37:47.799 They also disagree with statements like life is not governed 1:37:47.800 --> 1:37:50.320 by the survival of the fittest and we should let 1:37:50.400 --> 1:37:55.080 compassion and moral lawers be your guide. Social dominators are 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:58.160 some of the highest scores on this scale, and high 1:37:58.240 --> 1:38:02.600 scorers tend to be intimidated, ruthless, and vengeful, with no 1:38:02.720 --> 1:38:07.400 care for nobility or charity. They despise empathy and have 1:38:07.439 --> 1:38:11.000 a dog eat dog mentality toward the world. They love 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:13.360 the power to hurt in their drive to the top. 1:38:14.320 --> 1:38:18.560 High ruays just don't have that drive. And while authoritarian 1:38:18.640 --> 1:38:23.280 followers might highly value group cohesiveness and loyalty, social dominators 1:38:23.320 --> 1:38:26.880 don't because, like I keep saying, they're in it for themselves, 1:38:27.320 --> 1:38:30.040 for their power, and they will betray their own group 1:38:30.080 --> 1:38:34.600 if push comes to shove. Another area where social dominators 1:38:34.600 --> 1:38:36.519 and higher deg way is diverge is when it comes 1:38:36.600 --> 1:38:42.800 to religiousness. Authoritarian followers are usually religious fundamentalists, while dominators 1:38:42.880 --> 1:38:45.960 don't tend to be that involved. Some of them do 1:38:46.040 --> 1:38:50.559 go to church regularly, but that's for manipulative reasons because 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:55.599 social dominators could lie. They lie a lot. All they 1:38:55.600 --> 1:38:58.080 have to do is pretend to be religious and say 1:38:58.080 --> 1:39:00.800 the right words, and boom they get through. The higher 1:39:00.960 --> 1:39:04.000 was reminds me of a certain politician. 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:06.240 I'm just going to say this is put in the 1:39:06.360 --> 1:39:09.000 mind of like Donald Trump tay getting a massive crowd 1:39:09.000 --> 1:39:10.680 of people so he can walk to a church and 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:12.479 then take photos outside and not go in. 1:39:13.320 --> 1:39:17.760 Yeah, good times. There's another scale we could take a 1:39:17.760 --> 1:39:22.120 look at, and that's the exploitative, manipulative, immoral dishonesty, or 1:39:22.280 --> 1:39:29.520 exploitative mad scale. Unlike higher w's social dominators, anonymous responses 1:39:29.640 --> 1:39:33.160 indicate that they agree with statements like there's really no 1:39:33.240 --> 1:39:35.760 such thing as right and wrong. It all boils down 1:39:35.760 --> 1:39:38.680 to what you can get away with, and there's a 1:39:38.720 --> 1:39:41.559 sucker bone every minute, and smart people don how to 1:39:41.560 --> 1:39:46.040 take advantage of them. Social dominators disagree with statements like 1:39:46.479 --> 1:39:49.080 it gains a person nothing if he uses deceit and 1:39:49.120 --> 1:39:52.920 treachery to get power and riches, and all in all, 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:56.480 it's better to be humble and honest than important and dishonest. 1:39:57.479 --> 1:40:01.480 In essence, social dominators admit to strive and to manipulate, 1:40:01.800 --> 1:40:04.840 to be in dishonest, to be an immoral and treacherous. 1:40:05.439 --> 1:40:09.360 They see their followers as suckers, fools to be controlled. 1:40:11.360 --> 1:40:16.160 What else makes them different? Well, I could go back 1:40:16.200 --> 1:40:21.280 to the roots of hostility. Social dominators actually show greater 1:40:21.400 --> 1:40:25.600 prejudice against minorities and women than hired was do, but 1:40:25.680 --> 1:40:33.080 their followers are much more hostile towards LGBTQ people. Why Well, 1:40:33.080 --> 1:40:36.080 it ties back to the religiousness point and the hired 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:40.280 wa respect for the law. Since attacks against minorities are 1:40:40.360 --> 1:40:43.640 less clearly supported by religious and civic authorities as they 1:40:43.720 --> 1:40:47.840 used to be. Authoritarian follower aggression towards these groups both 1:40:47.880 --> 1:40:52.400 overt or sneaky how to be curved a little bit. Meanwhile, 1:40:52.439 --> 1:40:55.400 social dominators are hostile because they already live in the 1:40:55.439 --> 1:40:59.479 apocalyptic jungle that hired WA is fair, and they are 1:40:59.520 --> 1:41:03.040 the epect predator. They don't score highly in the dangerous 1:41:03.080 --> 1:41:06.240 world scale because they're not scared. They're the ones ready 1:41:06.240 --> 1:41:10.479 to weaponize that fear. Dominance is their first priority for 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:13.200 everyone they meet, they need a reason to not try 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:15.560 to control them. They don't care too much about the 1:41:15.640 --> 1:41:18.920 law either. It's just about not getting caught. They're not 1:41:18.960 --> 1:41:23.080 as self righteous as higher w is because they're quite immoral, 1:41:23.840 --> 1:41:26.320 and higher ws aggress when they believe right and might 1:41:26.439 --> 1:41:30.280 on their side. Social dominators aggress because might makes right 1:41:30.360 --> 1:41:33.960 for them personally. Higher W is heat crimemount of fair 1:41:34.040 --> 1:41:37.840 and self righteousness in the name of authority. Social dominators 1:41:37.880 --> 1:41:43.360 hate crime ount or share desire to intimidate and control. Lastly, 1:41:43.880 --> 1:41:46.360 we need to look at the differences in their thought process. 1:41:47.479 --> 1:41:50.639 Social dominators, for the most part, don't have a web 1:41:50.680 --> 1:41:55.800 of contradictions, weak reason and skills, compartmentalized thinking, or gullibility 1:41:55.960 --> 1:42:00.440 that define higher w's mental life. They're not particularly dogmatic 1:42:00.600 --> 1:42:04.080 or zealous about any particular cause or creed. They just 1:42:04.120 --> 1:42:06.920 want authority. They say whatever they need to say to 1:42:06.920 --> 1:42:10.439 get ahead. Because they have no consistent values, they'll be 1:42:10.520 --> 1:42:13.400 hypocrites like hard wa Is, but they're probably aware of 1:42:13.560 --> 1:42:17.720 and find their own hypocrisy. For example, they're cool with wealth, 1:42:17.720 --> 1:42:21.800 inheritance and corruption. They're opposed to welfare. They're unconcerned with 1:42:21.840 --> 1:42:26.440 income inequality or photo disenfranchisement. They're apathetic to racial inequality 1:42:26.439 --> 1:42:29.479 and injustice. They believe that people should have to earn 1:42:29.840 --> 1:42:32.320 their place in society, and they don't care if most 1:42:32.360 --> 1:42:35.160 of them can't. They still talk about how the only 1:42:35.200 --> 1:42:37.680 way to have a level play and field is to 1:42:37.680 --> 1:42:40.519 get rid of things like affirmative action. And part of 1:42:40.560 --> 1:42:45.080 what defines social dominators is their utter disregard for equality. 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:49.880 So we have to ask again what causes this? Why 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:54.880 are they like this? And well, social scientists just are 1:42:55.160 --> 1:43:03.720 show Yet if we look at the life shape and 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:07.519 experiences or social dominators, they would probably report the deceit 1:43:07.600 --> 1:43:09.880 and cheating were good tactics because it led to what 1:43:09.880 --> 1:43:14.000 they wanted. Taking advantage of suckers felt great. They enjoyed 1:43:14.040 --> 1:43:17.360 having power and having people afraid of them. Life boiled 1:43:17.400 --> 1:43:18.960 down to what you could get away with, and of 1:43:19.000 --> 1:43:22.120 course the experiences led them to believe that life is 1:43:22.160 --> 1:43:26.599 a jungle. Dominators were probably rewarded early in their lives 1:43:26.640 --> 1:43:31.360 when they cheated, took advantage of people, weaponized fear, overpowered others, 1:43:31.640 --> 1:43:34.400 or got away with something wrong. Whether or not their 1:43:34.439 --> 1:43:37.000 parents gave them that outlook on the world. Because of 1:43:37.040 --> 1:43:40.120 the psychological law of effect, they simply learn into the 1:43:40.160 --> 1:43:45.800 Being amoral, unsympathetic, and exploitative worked well for them. So 1:43:45.840 --> 1:43:48.719 what happens when higher was and social dominators worked together. 1:43:49.960 --> 1:43:54.040 In this field of research, the lethal union refers to 1:43:54.080 --> 1:43:58.440 the combination of happily subservient hired ws with social dominators 1:43:58.439 --> 1:44:01.519 who share their values in the drivers, eager to dominate 1:44:01.560 --> 1:44:05.439 and control, a death spiral union that develops all the 1:44:05.479 --> 1:44:10.559 time in the real world. As Altamaya aptly described, quote true, 1:44:10.960 --> 1:44:14.640 sufficiently skilled social dominators served by dedicated followers can make 1:44:14.680 --> 1:44:17.479 the trains run in time, but you have to worry 1:44:17.479 --> 1:44:20.479 about what the trains may be haulin' when dominators call 1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:24.599 the shots and the hirer was do the shooting end quote. 1:44:26.360 --> 1:44:30.439 While most social dominators get fairly low scores on RA 1:44:30.560 --> 1:44:35.280 tests and vice versa, a, very very small percentage of 1:44:35.280 --> 1:44:39.000 people in ultimiya samples scored highly on both r A 1:44:39.400 --> 1:44:45.120 and social dominance tests. These other double highs. If prejudice 1:44:45.200 --> 1:44:48.599 was as sports in the Olympics, hird WA's we get bronze, 1:44:49.040 --> 1:44:53.000 social dominators we get silver, and double Highs would definitely 1:44:53.040 --> 1:44:56.920 get gold. Now you might be wondering how do they 1:44:56.920 --> 1:45:00.799 manage to score so highly on both tests? Social dominators 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:03.880 and highways have so many differences. How can there would 1:45:03.920 --> 1:45:07.640 be a submissive dominator? So there are a couple of 1:45:07.680 --> 1:45:10.960 reasons why want to be dictator with score highly on 1:45:11.040 --> 1:45:15.559 both tests. One is because some WA scale statements are 1:45:15.560 --> 1:45:20.080 open to interpretation. Take the statement code our country desperately 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:21.800 needs a mighty leader who will do what has to 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:24.240 be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness 1:45:24.280 --> 1:45:28.280 that are ruining us, and code follow ull be like 1:45:28.680 --> 1:45:31.479 yes please, and a dominator will be like here I 1:45:31.520 --> 1:45:35.839 am behold, I'm your leader. Double Highs still score highly 1:45:35.920 --> 1:45:38.920 on all the power scales, like other social dominators and 1:45:39.040 --> 1:45:45.160 unlike other higher ways. Secondly, double Highs are the religious 1:45:45.360 --> 1:45:48.839 among the social dominators, so they respond to this religious 1:45:48.880 --> 1:45:52.000 items on the r WA scale that other social dominators don't, 1:45:52.560 --> 1:45:56.120 thereby significantly raising their art wa IS score. I don't 1:45:56.120 --> 1:45:58.240 think I need to go into too much detail. I 1:45:58.280 --> 1:46:01.840 feel like I should be absolutely clear. The double highs suck. 1:46:02.880 --> 1:46:06.000 Whatever the su they probably are on the wrong side 1:46:06.000 --> 1:46:10.920 of it, the worst of the worst, prejudiced, power hungry, exploitaive, mad, 1:46:11.120 --> 1:46:17.160 religiously fundamentalist, dogmatic, dangerous, worldest a noxious stew of the 1:46:17.200 --> 1:46:22.479 worst of all social dominators and hired was. Regular social 1:46:22.479 --> 1:46:26.400 dominators might end up in charge of pts, howays, workplaces, 1:46:26.479 --> 1:46:30.120 local governments, and other personal kingdoms. Not all of them 1:46:30.160 --> 1:46:32.800 succeed in life due to the animosity they create, the 1:46:33.000 --> 1:46:36.320 obstacles they might face, or their lack of intelligence, attractiveness, 1:46:36.400 --> 1:46:38.320 or network to gain the kind of power they want. 1:46:39.000 --> 1:46:40.599 And some of them might even get caught in their 1:46:40.640 --> 1:46:43.680 lives and i legalities and don't have the capital to 1:46:43.720 --> 1:46:48.080 get out of it. They see double highs, they tend 1:46:48.120 --> 1:46:52.240 to have a head start will Regular social dominators have 1:46:52.280 --> 1:46:55.040 to fake their religiousness to get the support of hired was. 1:46:56.000 --> 1:46:59.200 Double highs can more easily get started in their own churches, 1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:03.640 already part of the in group, sharing their prejudices, economic philosophies, 1:47:03.640 --> 1:47:07.200 and political leanents, even if they are faking it a 1:47:07.280 --> 1:47:10.639 little bit. A double high already knows all the code words, 1:47:10.760 --> 1:47:13.320 dog whistles and Bible verses. They need to get ahead 1:47:14.000 --> 1:47:16.479 if they know what stands they should hold about evolution, 1:47:17.040 --> 1:47:20.720 the role of women, abortion, school prayers, censorship, law and order, 1:47:20.720 --> 1:47:24.280 et cetera, et cetera. Double highs run the show you dig? 1:47:25.320 --> 1:47:26.040 Yeah for sure? 1:47:26.800 --> 1:47:29.720 So now what? Knowing that social dominators do whatever they 1:47:29.720 --> 1:47:32.439 can to hold on to power, and higher W is 1:47:32.560 --> 1:47:35.600 extremely resistant to change, how do we deal with a 1:47:35.640 --> 1:47:39.800 situation where social change requires dealing with these people? I mean, 1:47:39.840 --> 1:47:43.160 they can't debate them. Even if you were to intellectually 1:47:43.240 --> 1:47:45.920 wrestle with a double high leader and utterly destroy them 1:47:45.920 --> 1:47:49.280 with facts and logic, their higher W audience is not 1:47:49.560 --> 1:47:53.320 likely to change their minds. Trying to change highly dogmatic, 1:47:53.479 --> 1:47:58.280 evidence immune ethnocentric people is an exercise in frustration and futility. 1:47:59.320 --> 1:48:01.800 It's also hard to fight the share fair mongerant power 1:48:02.040 --> 1:48:05.240 of the likes of Fox News and Facebook to combat 1:48:05.280 --> 1:48:08.599 the class and religious roots of ethnocentrism and to reduce 1:48:08.640 --> 1:48:12.200 the self righteousness of their followers. It's even harder to 1:48:12.240 --> 1:48:16.160 convince them that they are being systematically misinformed and played 1:48:16.200 --> 1:48:19.479 for fools by their leaders. Even if they listen to 1:48:19.520 --> 1:48:23.479 these episodes or watched my videos or read ultimized books, 1:48:24.120 --> 1:48:27.599 they would either get defensive or honestly, because a lot 1:48:27.600 --> 1:48:30.280 of them aren't self aware, assume that this is about 1:48:30.320 --> 1:48:35.519 someone else finding a way to compartmentalize, misinterpret, rationalize, and 1:48:35.560 --> 1:48:48.080 dogmatically deny anything I've said so far. So what to do? First, 1:48:48.120 --> 1:48:54.000 and foremost, representation matters. It's important to hire see more 1:48:54.120 --> 1:48:57.120 of the breath and diversity of human existence and experience. 1:48:57.960 --> 1:49:01.840 The reality is skewed. The visibility and representation of people 1:49:01.840 --> 1:49:04.640 from other backgrounds, not just in media, but also in 1:49:04.680 --> 1:49:08.720 their personal lives is very important. One thing studies have 1:49:08.760 --> 1:49:11.320 shown is that higher w's who know a Cay person 1:49:11.760 --> 1:49:14.240 are far less likely to be homophobic than their fellow 1:49:14.320 --> 1:49:17.960 higher ws. And the best exposures different types of people 1:49:18.439 --> 1:49:22.120 is through access to higher education, or more broadly, just 1:49:22.200 --> 1:49:28.400 any space with diversity. College may not necessarily turn them 1:49:28.400 --> 1:49:33.160 into commit to revolutionaries, contrary to popular belief, but the 1:49:33.280 --> 1:49:37.080 environment of higher education has a tremendously beneficial impact on 1:49:37.160 --> 1:49:41.040 higher ws. Four years of undergrad experience can knock their 1:49:41.080 --> 1:49:46.400 scores down by fifteen to twenty percent. Academic spaces need 1:49:46.439 --> 1:49:51.519 to be alive, vibrant, and most of all accessible, and 1:49:51.600 --> 1:49:55.200 we need people in academic and non academic spaces to 1:49:55.320 --> 1:49:59.840 embrace the power of influence. I don't mean this in 1:49:59.840 --> 1:50:02.439 a give them an authority and to follow kind of way. 1:50:03.080 --> 1:50:05.960 I'm not talking about becoming a club president or ordering 1:50:06.000 --> 1:50:10.040 people around. I'm not thinking about hierarchical leadership, but rather 1:50:11.080 --> 1:50:15.680 the natural influence of individuals who model exemplary behavior and 1:50:15.760 --> 1:50:19.000 provide an example for others to look to, people who 1:50:19.120 --> 1:50:22.479 freely lend their talents and knowledge and mentorship to others. 1:50:23.160 --> 1:50:26.080 In a conformity experiment, in however, in the late nineteen forties, 1:50:26.800 --> 1:50:30.760 real subjects were surrounded by actors who deliberately gave obviously 1:50:30.840 --> 1:50:35.400 wrong answers to questions. Usually, the subjects went along with 1:50:35.439 --> 1:50:38.680 the wrong majority at least some of the time. But 1:50:39.000 --> 1:50:42.400 if in another condition of the experiment, one other person 1:50:42.439 --> 1:50:46.000 gave the right answer, real subjects were much more likely 1:50:46.120 --> 1:50:48.639 to do the right thing, even though it meant joining 1:50:48.720 --> 1:50:53.759 a distinct minority rather than the majority. So I'm saying 1:50:53.760 --> 1:50:59.000 that as the people who hold radical beliefs, it's important 1:50:59.040 --> 1:51:00.880 to stand up. You know, you don't have to form 1:51:00.960 --> 1:51:04.320 majority to have an effect. Two or three people speaking 1:51:04.360 --> 1:51:07.559 out can sometimes change the decisions of entire school boards, 1:51:07.640 --> 1:51:12.439 church boards, or other institutions. Obviously, reform is not going 1:51:12.479 --> 1:51:15.760 to be enough, but we do need to present some 1:51:15.920 --> 1:51:18.840 opposition on that front and that sphere. You know, lack 1:51:18.880 --> 1:51:22.519 of opposition teaches dominators to keep dominating, and it only 1:51:22.560 --> 1:51:26.920 takes one person to start the opposition. The domino effects 1:51:26.960 --> 1:51:30.840 that could potentially influence even higher wis because at the 1:51:30.920 --> 1:51:33.439 end of the day, it's clear that they want to 1:51:33.439 --> 1:51:38.040 be quote unquote normal in their bubbles and their echo chambers. 1:51:38.040 --> 1:51:41.600 They don't really realize how extreme. They are. Then, to 1:51:41.600 --> 1:51:44.840 be exposed to the perspectives and experiences of people outside 1:51:44.840 --> 1:51:48.599 their tight circles, Mutual aid and other organized efforts can 1:51:48.640 --> 1:51:52.000 show them the humanity of other people finding common ground 1:51:52.320 --> 1:51:57.200 in common course. But ultimately, in my view, the best 1:51:57.280 --> 1:52:03.160 long term solutions require youth liberation and prefiguration. We need 1:52:03.240 --> 1:52:06.519 use liberation both at home and at school and everywhere else. 1:52:07.400 --> 1:52:09.280 As long as we continue to reinforce the notion that 1:52:09.400 --> 1:52:12.519 children need to blindly submit to authorities, as long as 1:52:12.520 --> 1:52:15.840 we refuse to grant them humanity and autonomy. We will 1:52:15.880 --> 1:52:19.360 continue to be without humanity and autonomy. We will continue 1:52:19.360 --> 1:52:22.920 to have adult generation after generation who do not know 1:52:23.000 --> 1:52:27.800 how to resist authority. We must prefigure those relationships in 1:52:27.840 --> 1:52:31.320 our personal lives and our social spaces, or we must 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:35.240 prefigure our liberation. It's not enough to just campaign against 1:52:35.240 --> 1:52:38.679 social dominators. We have to dismantle the systems that allow 1:52:38.760 --> 1:52:41.639 them to dominate in the first place. The only way 1:52:41.680 --> 1:52:44.679 to keep social dominators from season power is to prefigure 1:52:44.720 --> 1:52:48.160 a system where no one person can so easily coerce 1:52:48.200 --> 1:52:52.680 and dominate. To quote Barb Waltimaya one last time, we 1:52:52.720 --> 1:52:55.479 cannot secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our 1:52:55.520 --> 1:52:58.479 posterity if we sit with our oars out of the water. 1:52:59.160 --> 1:53:02.719 If we drift mind leslie, circumstances can sweep us a disaster. 1:53:04.040 --> 1:53:09.240 Our societies presently produce millions of highly authoritarian personalities, as 1:53:09.280 --> 1:53:12.799 a matter of course, enough to stage the Nuremberg rallies 1:53:12.840 --> 1:53:16.559 over and over and over again. Turn in a blind 1:53:16.560 --> 1:53:19.760 eye to this put someday point guns at all of 1:53:19.800 --> 1:53:23.080 our heads, and the fingers on the triggers will belong 1:53:23.200 --> 1:53:28.320 to right wing authoritarians. We ignore this at our peril. 1:53:29.720 --> 1:53:34.400 Social dominators want you complacent, apathetic, hopeless and out of 1:53:34.439 --> 1:53:38.200 the way. They want to control everything and everybody, and 1:53:38.240 --> 1:53:42.200 they have their loyal followers ready to mobilize. They are 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:46.559 not the majority, but they're determined to win. Do not 1:53:46.680 --> 1:53:50.240 let them. If you know what's happening, if you spot 1:53:50.280 --> 1:53:54.680 these signs in your own spaces, it's your responsibility to 1:53:54.680 --> 1:53:58.680 do something about it, to organize, to educate. Because one 1:53:58.680 --> 1:54:02.480 person could accomplish so much, and two people could accomplish 1:54:02.479 --> 1:54:06.920 so much more. Good luck, all power to all the 1:54:06.920 --> 1:54:11.600 people because it could happen here. Can follow me on 1:54:11.640 --> 1:54:15.800 puture dot com. Stas Saint Drew. This has been Andre 1:54:15.920 --> 1:54:20.560 sage Araism. It could happen here. All La Jazz. 1:54:20.800 --> 1:54:34.960 Peace, welcome back to it could happen here. A podcast 1:54:35.160 --> 1:54:40.480 about it happening here. And you know, when we talk 1:54:40.520 --> 1:54:44.280 about like collapse, things falling apart, there's very few case 1:54:44.320 --> 1:54:47.240 studies that are more important for folks to be aware 1:54:47.240 --> 1:54:49.720 of than what has happened and is continuing to happen 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:53.840 in Northeast Syria, in a region of the world known 1:54:53.880 --> 1:55:00.680 as Rojava, or the Autonomous Regions of Northeastyria and I'm 1:55:00.720 --> 1:55:03.560 here with James Stout. He and I have both reported 1:55:03.800 --> 1:55:07.560 from the ro Javon Project, and we are talking again 1:55:07.640 --> 1:55:11.960 with Arthur and Debbie Bookchin about what's going on there now, 1:55:12.480 --> 1:55:17.640 kind of as as the struggle continues, so to speak. 1:55:18.080 --> 1:55:20.280 That's right, and thank you very much for joining us, 1:55:20.400 --> 1:55:23.760 Arthurine Debbie, and you're both here in your capacity as 1:55:23.800 --> 1:55:27.040 representatives of the Emergency Committee for Rajava. 1:55:27.160 --> 1:55:30.560 Right, that's right, and thanks for having us. 1:55:30.920 --> 1:55:32.160 Yeah, thanks for coming back. 1:55:32.840 --> 1:55:35.320 So I think perhaps we should begin by explaining what 1:55:35.440 --> 1:55:38.080 ECI is and does. I've been very fortunate to be 1:55:38.120 --> 1:55:41.160 asked to speak at one of your meetings, so I'm familiar, 1:55:41.160 --> 1:55:43.280 but I think maybe some of our listeners wouldn't be. 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:45.920 So could you begin with explaining what it is what 1:55:45.960 --> 1:55:46.360 it does? 1:55:47.760 --> 1:55:48.200 Yeah? 1:55:48.240 --> 1:55:52.920 Absolutely, So, the Emergency Committee for Is it's kind of 1:55:52.960 --> 1:55:57.840 the only standing US based organization focused. 1:55:57.480 --> 1:55:59.839 On solidarity with the Rojeva revolution. 1:56:01.040 --> 1:56:03.640 And what we do is we try to build a 1:56:03.720 --> 1:56:07.120 grassroots solidarity movement with the revolution in North East Syria, 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:11.400 with the Kurtis Freedom movement more broadly, and we do 1:56:11.480 --> 1:56:13.320 that in a few different ways. One is like just 1:56:13.360 --> 1:56:16.120 trying to inform the public. Right, So, kind of public education. 1:56:16.920 --> 1:56:21.440 Another is advocacy trying to sort of put pressure on 1:56:21.640 --> 1:56:25.760 the United States government to stop arming people who are 1:56:25.760 --> 1:56:28.880 trying to kill everybody in Rogeva and to support the 1:56:28.920 --> 1:56:32.520 people instead. But another thing that we do is try 1:56:32.520 --> 1:56:35.800 to build kind of movement to movement relationships, now, like 1:56:36.240 --> 1:56:40.320 finding social movements in the United States that we think 1:56:40.520 --> 1:56:43.080 share a lot of affinity with movement over there, try 1:56:43.080 --> 1:56:44.560 to put them in touch and try to kind of 1:56:44.560 --> 1:56:46.680 facilitate dialogue. 1:56:46.960 --> 1:56:49.400 Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's important to kind 1:56:49.400 --> 1:56:53.280 of start, as we often do, with the attempt to 1:56:53.280 --> 1:56:56.520 get the US government to stop arming folks killing the 1:56:56.520 --> 1:56:59.000 people there, which in this case refers specifically to the 1:56:59.040 --> 1:57:03.320 Turkish military. I mean, we're all kind of dealing with 1:57:03.480 --> 1:57:05.480 in a separate part of the world, how difficult it 1:57:05.560 --> 1:57:09.080 is to stop the United States government from army people. 1:57:11.000 --> 1:57:11.680 Do that, right. 1:57:12.000 --> 1:57:15.640 Yeah, it's a great point, Robert. You know, I think 1:57:15.680 --> 1:57:19.360 sometimes it's hard for people to even comprehend just the 1:57:19.440 --> 1:57:23.440 massive flow of weapons from the United States to Turkey. 1:57:23.800 --> 1:57:25.800 Yeah, I mean, over the years, it's. 1:57:25.680 --> 1:57:29.400 Been it's just I think in the last fifteen years alone, 1:57:29.880 --> 1:57:33.760 the US has sold Turkey something like four billion dollars 1:57:33.760 --> 1:57:37.840 worth of Patriot missiles alone, you know, and then billions 1:57:38.240 --> 1:57:43.320 or at least millions, and you know, helicopters, the Cobra 1:57:43.400 --> 1:57:48.200 attack helicopters. There is just a huge flow of arms 1:57:48.240 --> 1:57:51.720 from the United States to Turkey, and as Arthur said, 1:57:51.920 --> 1:57:53.960 you know, one of the things that we really do 1:57:54.280 --> 1:57:59.120 try and do at ECR is to get people not 1:57:59.160 --> 1:58:02.760 only aware but also into doing some advocacy on that. 1:58:03.200 --> 1:58:06.560 And one of the things that we're also trying to 1:58:06.600 --> 1:58:09.400 prevent right now is the sale of any more F 1:58:09.480 --> 1:58:14.040 sixteens to Turkey, which, as I'm sure your listeners know, 1:58:14.160 --> 1:58:18.600 are used in the bombing of people in Rojeva and 1:58:18.640 --> 1:58:22.800 also in Turkey and in northern Iraq. So that's a 1:58:22.960 --> 1:58:25.440 very critical issue in fact. 1:58:26.040 --> 1:58:28.960 Yeah, yeah, And it's a critical issue in part because 1:58:29.040 --> 1:58:32.880 like what we're seeing is I would describe it as 1:58:32.880 --> 1:58:38.280 a pretty concentrated attempt to destroy civil society in Rojeva, right, 1:58:38.360 --> 1:58:42.080 Like you're not just through the use of air strikes, 1:58:42.120 --> 1:58:46.200 through things like blocking off access to water, but the 1:58:46.280 --> 1:58:49.280 F sixteens that Turkey purchases from the United States and 1:58:49.280 --> 1:58:52.200 the continuing armaments to keep those things flying and firing 1:58:52.240 --> 1:58:54.880 missiles are a huge part of how they're able to 1:58:54.920 --> 1:58:59.160 continue degrading the capacity of the self administration to maintain 1:58:59.240 --> 1:59:01.920 civil society exactly. 1:59:02.000 --> 1:59:06.520 I mean, there is really an aim They're aimed to 1:59:06.560 --> 1:59:11.960 completely destabilize the society, to shake confidence in the autonomous administration, 1:59:13.200 --> 1:59:17.839 to break morale, to engage in psychological terror, and frankly, 1:59:18.160 --> 1:59:21.080 you know, also to do physical harm. As I'm sure 1:59:21.120 --> 1:59:25.480 you know and your listeners know, they Turkey very effectively 1:59:25.640 --> 1:59:30.720 uses drones and other methods to take out leadership, particularly 1:59:31.000 --> 1:59:35.840 female leadership, women who are leaders of the movement. And 1:59:36.160 --> 1:59:39.080 you know, there's not a day that goes by really 1:59:39.480 --> 1:59:44.040 that doesn't include strikes from Turkey into Rojeva. 1:59:44.120 --> 1:59:45.120 I mean, I'm just thinking. 1:59:46.360 --> 1:59:51.800 You know, the Membij Military Council just has reported in 1:59:51.840 --> 1:59:54.760 the last couple of days that the State of Turkey 1:59:54.840 --> 1:59:58.080 has shelled various villages and Membies. 1:59:58.360 --> 1:59:59.000 You know that. 2:00:00.600 --> 2:00:07.720 Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo are really subjected to continuous embargoes 2:00:08.160 --> 2:00:13.160 by the Damascus government, but also you know, Turkey intercedes 2:00:13.200 --> 2:00:18.120 to prevent supplies from getting to these places. So it's 2:00:18.240 --> 2:00:21.520 really I think there's something like more than two hundred 2:00:21.640 --> 2:00:25.720 bombings by Turkey in Iraqi Kurdistan even since just the 2:00:25.760 --> 2:00:30.320 beginning of the year, so it's really ongoing assault. 2:00:31.720 --> 2:00:35.080 No, absolutely, I think you know, for people who are 2:00:35.600 --> 2:00:38.040 less familiar with it, it's easy to kind of get 2:00:38.080 --> 2:00:40.960 bogged down in the weeds because all the details they 2:00:41.040 --> 2:00:44.440 change every day. But I think the bronze strokes are 2:00:44.480 --> 2:00:47.120 pretty clear and haven't changed for a long time. 2:00:47.160 --> 2:00:48.360 I mean, Turkey sees. 2:00:48.120 --> 2:00:52.640 This revolution rightly so as a threat to its own power, 2:00:52.680 --> 2:00:55.280 to its own ideology. You know, the idea that local 2:00:55.280 --> 2:01:01.760 communities would govern themselves pluralistically through autonomy is a direct. 2:01:01.440 --> 2:01:03.360 Threat to the idea of the Turkish state, which is 2:01:03.360 --> 2:01:03.920 basically a. 2:01:03.880 --> 2:01:07.600 Fascist nation state, and they kind of have a twofold strategy. 2:01:07.680 --> 2:01:09.520 I think you could see it this way, right, So, 2:01:10.000 --> 2:01:12.640 like for those who don't know, Turkey has already invade 2:01:12.640 --> 2:01:15.960 in Northeastiria multiple times. It's invaded Aufrin in twenty eighteen, 2:01:16.320 --> 2:01:20.320 se Dekanye ta Labiat in twenty nineteen, and it occupies 2:01:20.400 --> 2:01:24.520 that territory still to this day. But when it's been 2:01:24.640 --> 2:01:27.760 unable to seize more territory directly, it kind of has 2:01:27.800 --> 2:01:30.200 this twofold strategy where the other side of the coin 2:01:30.920 --> 2:01:34.960 is to just do everything possible to make life unlivable, right, 2:01:35.000 --> 2:01:37.160 So that's where the assassinations come in. 2:01:37.600 --> 2:01:38.600 That's where the sort of. 2:01:38.560 --> 2:01:44.240 Information warfare, blocking of water, sort of economic embargo. The 2:01:44.280 --> 2:01:48.520 basic idea is just to spread fear, to spread uncertainty 2:01:48.600 --> 2:01:51.160 into every sphere of life, and, like you said, Robert, 2:01:51.200 --> 2:01:53.640 to basically attack civil society itself. 2:01:54.360 --> 2:01:57.240 Yeah, I wonder if you could explain. I think our 2:01:57.280 --> 2:02:00.880 listeners are maybe familiar with the campaign again and civil 2:02:00.920 --> 2:02:05.680 society and civilian targets that we saw, like in October 2:02:05.760 --> 2:02:07.960 November of last year, that I saw some of while 2:02:07.960 --> 2:02:13.760 I was there. But Turkey's recently launched like a spring offensive, right, 2:02:14.400 --> 2:02:20.280 which doesn't isn't exclusively unlimited to bombing, but also it 2:02:20.520 --> 2:02:26.040 contains like I guess, combined arms, you know, infantry bombing. 2:02:26.360 --> 2:02:29.760 Can you explain what's happening there and what the sort 2:02:29.800 --> 2:02:31.720 of I think the plan you've sort of very well 2:02:31.760 --> 2:02:33.919 summed up already, right, which is to make life unlivable 2:02:33.960 --> 2:02:36.960 for the Kurdish freedom movement. But can you explain what's 2:02:37.000 --> 2:02:38.920 been happening in the last few weeks for people who 2:02:38.920 --> 2:02:39.760 haven't caught up. 2:02:40.560 --> 2:02:42.960 So for one, for people to understand the connection in 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:47.600 the first place. Right, it's important to understand that, really, wow, 2:02:47.680 --> 2:02:51.080 there are distinct organizations which are autonomous and are place 2:02:51.120 --> 2:02:55.120 based within the Kurdish movement. Right, there's their own parties 2:02:55.120 --> 2:02:57.840 and self defense forces in Syria and in Iraq and 2:02:57.880 --> 2:03:00.800 other parts of Kurdistan. It's important to see it also 2:03:00.840 --> 2:03:03.600 as kind of one big Kurtish freedom movement in another 2:03:03.680 --> 2:03:06.360 sense and an important sense, because Turkey sees it in 2:03:06.360 --> 2:03:10.200 that light. So for the same reasons, the Turkey wants 2:03:10.240 --> 2:03:13.200 to crush the revolution in Northeastyria, the Turkey wants to 2:03:13.240 --> 2:03:17.080 crush the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, right, and the 2:03:17.120 --> 2:03:20.320 gorillas of the PKK are based in northern Iraq, and 2:03:21.520 --> 2:03:24.880 time and time again they've tried to sort of dislodge 2:03:25.280 --> 2:03:28.360 the gorilla forces from the mountains, but it's pretty hard 2:03:28.360 --> 2:03:31.840 to do. You know, this is NATO's second largest military 2:03:31.960 --> 2:03:34.520 and they still after decades, have not been able to 2:03:34.520 --> 2:03:36.400 crush this insurgency. 2:03:36.960 --> 2:03:38.320 And so what we're seeing. 2:03:38.000 --> 2:03:41.800 In recent weeks is not necessarily so novel. I mean, 2:03:41.840 --> 2:03:44.720 you can again you can get into the weeds about 2:03:44.800 --> 2:03:47.560 the region of Metina and a particular road that they're 2:03:47.560 --> 2:03:50.400 trying to seize for logistics on their way to the 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:54.920 Mountain of Ghara. But the truth is they're trying to 2:03:54.960 --> 2:03:58.360 crush the movement where it is and they're seizing an opportunity. 2:03:58.680 --> 2:04:01.360 There's often like a weather wind for the fighting in 2:04:01.400 --> 2:04:04.040 the mountains as well, and so when the snow starts 2:04:04.080 --> 2:04:06.040 to melt in the spring, you start to see an 2:04:06.160 --> 2:04:09.680 escalation of the fighting in the mountains, which often winds 2:04:09.720 --> 2:04:12.600 down in the fall. Again, but it's yet to be seen. 2:04:12.640 --> 2:04:13.560 Now this is going to go. 2:04:13.640 --> 2:04:15.840 I mean, y'all have I don't have to tell you 2:04:15.920 --> 2:04:20.080 right like you've done some recent episodes on technological developments 2:04:20.120 --> 2:04:23.080 with the movement, and Turkey's been having a really hard 2:04:23.120 --> 2:04:24.600 time making gains on the ground. 2:04:25.160 --> 2:04:29.320 And also I mean, as I think, as Megan Bodette 2:04:29.360 --> 2:04:33.640 noted on this podcast recently, you know, the Turkish leader 2:04:33.880 --> 2:04:38.080 Erdowan tends to take out any insult he feels he suffered, 2:04:38.320 --> 2:04:42.240 and particularly elections setbacks has happened in the local elections 2:04:42.240 --> 2:04:46.120 at the end of March on the Kurdish regions everywhere 2:04:46.160 --> 2:04:55.840 in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and so we're seeing also crackdowns 2:04:55.600 --> 2:05:00.000 has happened also for quite some time. But on journalists 2:05:00.960 --> 2:05:05.880 again sort of cranking up again. It's funny that on 2:05:05.960 --> 2:05:11.920 World Press Day, which was May third, Kurdish journalist was arrested, 2:05:12.120 --> 2:05:15.840 you know, strip search, a woman thrown in jail, and 2:05:15.960 --> 2:05:21.000 this is you know, another sort of wave of politicians 2:05:21.040 --> 2:05:26.040 being arrested. Just again on Monday, I think thirteen politicians 2:05:25.680 --> 2:05:30.720 were sentenced to six years plus in jail, in prison. 2:05:31.600 --> 2:05:37.120 So this sort of policy that seems to show itself 2:05:37.280 --> 2:05:41.440 every time Airdawan feels a bit threatened is one that 2:05:41.480 --> 2:05:44.520 we're seeing right now, in part I think as a 2:05:44.560 --> 2:05:48.879 result of those election defeats that his party suffered. 2:05:49.480 --> 2:05:54.120 Yeah, absolutely, and sinister as it is. Whenever they lose 2:05:54.160 --> 2:05:58.600 in the mountains, they often hit harder in Northeastyria and 2:05:58.640 --> 2:06:02.080 vice versa. So it's all just a big kind of 2:06:02.360 --> 2:06:03.680 ugly game that they're playing. 2:06:05.720 --> 2:06:07.440 Well, I want to get to some more here, but 2:06:07.520 --> 2:06:09.440 first we've got to take a quick break. We're going 2:06:09.480 --> 2:06:11.800 to throw to some ads and then we'll come back 2:06:11.880 --> 2:06:27.520 and continue this discussion. All right, we're back, and I'm 2:06:27.560 --> 2:06:31.040 trying to get a sense of how the situation is 2:06:31.080 --> 2:06:34.880 on the ground right now despite the or considering the 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:39.120 challenges of the attacks on infrastructure, that have continued to 2:06:39.520 --> 2:06:41.880 go on, like what are we looking at from a 2:06:41.960 --> 2:06:44.640 daily life point of view in places like Comichelo. 2:06:45.280 --> 2:06:47.680 Well, you know, one of the things that I think 2:06:47.800 --> 2:06:52.240 is important to emphasize is just how strong a lot 2:06:52.320 --> 2:06:55.839 of the civil structures really are even in the face 2:06:55.920 --> 2:06:59.800 of these attacks by Turkey. And I'm sure Arthur will 2:06:59.800 --> 2:07:02.560 have something to say about that, and also about maybe 2:07:02.560 --> 2:07:04.960 some of the sort of the military side of this. 2:07:05.120 --> 2:07:11.560 But you know, the extraordinary thing about Rojeva is just 2:07:11.840 --> 2:07:16.560 how deeply engaged they are on the civil level. In 2:07:16.640 --> 2:07:19.520 our group at the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, we're in 2:07:19.680 --> 2:07:23.160 contact with a lot of people in civil society and 2:07:23.320 --> 2:07:26.760 it's I'm always amazed at how many sort of requests 2:07:26.800 --> 2:07:33.520 we get for, you know, exchanges of information and scholars 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:37.520 and they're building the university there to do more and 2:07:37.640 --> 2:07:43.200 more technical things, you know, whether computers or agricultural sciences 2:07:43.400 --> 2:07:47.560 or you know, just a vast variety of graduate program 2:07:47.600 --> 2:07:50.280 they want to do right now in social ecology that 2:07:50.720 --> 2:07:54.280 I've been working with them on. And so so, even 2:07:54.440 --> 2:07:58.520 though there's this effort by Turkey to kind of terrorize 2:07:58.520 --> 2:08:02.720 the civilian population, and I'm sure you know, people can 2:08:02.760 --> 2:08:05.640 imagine what it must feel like to have drones flying 2:08:05.760 --> 2:08:09.080 constantly overhead and wondering if you get into a car 2:08:09.200 --> 2:08:11.640 whether it might you might you know, be the subject 2:08:11.640 --> 2:08:16.760 of a drone attack. Nonetheless, there is still this extraordinary 2:08:17.640 --> 2:08:22.520 sort of hopefulness and also energy towards building the society. 2:08:22.800 --> 2:08:25.360 And for example, one of the things that they recently did, 2:08:25.440 --> 2:08:28.600 and it took a long time, but they rewrote their 2:08:29.040 --> 2:08:31.320 Social Contract, which is what we would think of as 2:08:31.320 --> 2:08:36.680 a constitution, to empower women even more, you know, to 2:08:37.120 --> 2:08:43.040 empower various ethnic minorities more, and to make it a 2:08:43.160 --> 2:08:46.840 document that is truly inclusive in terms of how it 2:08:46.920 --> 2:08:50.680 was written and how it will be implemented, and so 2:08:51.320 --> 2:08:54.840 on the ground, I think, even though they are suffering 2:08:54.960 --> 2:08:57.640 in a lot of ways, and they are because you know, 2:08:57.800 --> 2:09:01.400 Rojaeve is also a region that is subject to terrible 2:09:01.560 --> 2:09:06.680 environmental dislocations because of global warming, there's still a huge 2:09:07.040 --> 2:09:11.120 sort of excitement I think about about the fact that 2:09:11.120 --> 2:09:14.680 they are self governing and the fact that they are 2:09:14.720 --> 2:09:18.680 empowering women, and those kinds of activities, especially on the 2:09:18.720 --> 2:09:22.760 part of the women's movement. Congress star just continue to 2:09:23.360 --> 2:09:26.640 go on. You know, they've built an alternative justice system. 2:09:27.080 --> 2:09:31.760 They are increasingly turning their sort of economy as much 2:09:31.800 --> 2:09:34.720 as is feasible, and it's a slow process, but into 2:09:34.760 --> 2:09:37.960 a more of a cooperative economy. So all of those 2:09:38.000 --> 2:09:42.400 things are very much underway there. And education is a 2:09:42.480 --> 2:09:43.400 huge part of that. 2:09:44.120 --> 2:09:47.920 No, I mean, that's that's also true, It really is. 2:09:48.720 --> 2:09:51.840 But just to speak to kind of the other side 2:09:51.880 --> 2:09:54.640 of that, you know, Robert s sort of what is 2:09:54.680 --> 2:09:55.360 life like, say. 2:09:55.200 --> 2:09:57.040 In a place like Commushula right now? 2:09:57.760 --> 2:09:59.920 You know, I think in some ways it's a lot 2:10:00.160 --> 2:10:03.320 like it was when I was in a place called Zirgon, 2:10:03.480 --> 2:10:07.240 which is another frontline city where at the same time 2:10:07.320 --> 2:10:10.240 Debbie's describing life goes on, people trying to build up 2:10:10.240 --> 2:10:14.000 civil society, They're trying to organize the communes and the cooperatives. 2:10:14.280 --> 2:10:18.080 At the same time, there's a tremendous fear and uncertainty, 2:10:18.960 --> 2:10:22.800 fear in an immediate sense around these drone strikes. I mean, 2:10:22.840 --> 2:10:25.440 you guys have been there too, right, Like I've been 2:10:25.480 --> 2:10:28.360 home I think eleven months now, and I still every 2:10:28.360 --> 2:10:31.160 time I hear a small airplane, my body just even 2:10:31.160 --> 2:10:33.560 if my brain knows that it's just a plane, like 2:10:33.600 --> 2:10:37.080 my body's convinced it's a Turkish drone. And imagine, you know, 2:10:37.160 --> 2:10:38.760 you live your whole life in a place like that, 2:10:38.920 --> 2:10:40.600 or you've spent the last ten years, So a lot 2:10:40.640 --> 2:10:44.720 of people are living in this constant state of fear 2:10:44.720 --> 2:10:47.880 and uncertainty. Even on a practical level. You know, say 2:10:47.920 --> 2:10:51.160 you're a farmer and you're going to plant your seats 2:10:51.160 --> 2:10:52.680 this year, do you know that you're even going to 2:10:52.720 --> 2:10:56.440 have your land in a month or six months? You know, 2:10:56.520 --> 2:11:01.360 people are taking Turkey's threat of an Invasionviously, it hasn't 2:11:01.440 --> 2:11:03.800 happened again since twenty nineteen, but I can tell you 2:11:04.000 --> 2:11:07.760 I talked to people there almost every day, and they're 2:11:07.800 --> 2:11:11.560 taking it extremely seriously. So there's kind of this idea 2:11:11.640 --> 2:11:16.720 of impending invasion sort of hangs like a cloud over 2:11:17.000 --> 2:11:19.240 daily life in so many ways. And on top of 2:11:19.280 --> 2:11:23.320 all of that, of course, since I left Northeast Siria, 2:11:23.360 --> 2:11:27.760 there was this major wave of attacks against civilian infrastructure 2:11:28.080 --> 2:11:30.520 right around the time you were there last, James, you know, 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:32.520 and you can probably speak to it more, but I 2:11:32.520 --> 2:11:38.240 mean we're talking about power stations and oil wells, and 2:11:38.480 --> 2:11:43.800 hospitals and schools and food storage facilities, So they're still. 2:11:43.560 --> 2:11:46.680 Really reeling from these infrastructure attacks. 2:11:46.560 --> 2:11:50.480 Cutting off electricity to a million people at a time 2:11:50.800 --> 2:11:52.520 and water supplies. 2:11:52.200 --> 2:11:54.839 Which is about a third of the population of the region. 2:11:55.240 --> 2:11:58.520 Yeah, I mean, you know, war crimes. There's another word 2:11:58.600 --> 2:12:00.000 for it, that's what they're called. 2:12:00.440 --> 2:12:05.080 Yeah, it's a very jarring experience, at least in my 2:12:05.200 --> 2:12:07.480 time there, which is briefer than then the amount of 2:12:07.520 --> 2:12:10.160 time both of you have spent there to like go 2:12:10.280 --> 2:12:13.480 out in the daytime and talk to people and see 2:12:13.480 --> 2:12:16.920 this incredible optimism for like, we are building a different world, 2:12:17.320 --> 2:12:19.720 and like it's there and you can see it, and 2:12:19.760 --> 2:12:22.640 we're moving towards it. It's not like, you know, we're 2:12:22.640 --> 2:12:25.120 building a different world when we have encampments on campus too, 2:12:25.160 --> 2:12:28.480 but this is a tangible societal product. 2:12:28.600 --> 2:12:29.080 Yeah. 2:12:29.120 --> 2:12:33.040 Well, and that it speaks to That's why the attacks 2:12:33.080 --> 2:12:35.680 Turkey is carrying out take the form they're taking, right, 2:12:36.080 --> 2:12:41.640 because the priority, the primary strength of the self administration 2:12:41.920 --> 2:12:45.560 is not in its arms. It's in its ability to 2:12:45.720 --> 2:12:49.400 provide a functional civil society that people are motivated to 2:12:49.440 --> 2:12:52.280 take part in, which is why their primary weapon is 2:12:52.320 --> 2:12:54.920 to try to destroy the ability of people to live. 2:12:55.920 --> 2:12:58.760 Yeah, and that's exact what it feels. 2:12:58.520 --> 2:13:02.000 Like like you know, my experience with a brief. You know, 2:13:02.160 --> 2:13:07.280 we lost electricity every night. People are not willing or 2:13:07.280 --> 2:13:09.080 people are less willing to go out and drive long 2:13:09.080 --> 2:13:15.160 distances after dark. There is very clearly damage to the infrastructure. 2:13:15.160 --> 2:13:17.280 You know, I was in a couple of different places. 2:13:17.440 --> 2:13:20.920 One of them was having issues getting getting water pumped. 2:13:22.280 --> 2:13:26.080 There are massive funerals right for people who have been killed. 2:13:26.240 --> 2:13:28.200 And you get to see this what is like it's 2:13:28.240 --> 2:13:32.400 a beautiful spectacle in a sense, but also like, you know, 2:13:32.520 --> 2:13:34.840 you can't spend a week in Roger were a Nazi, 2:13:34.960 --> 2:13:38.040 a little baby say goodbye to their dad, or just 2:13:38.120 --> 2:13:42.760 a dead baby, and that's that's terrible, you know. 2:13:42.800 --> 2:13:44.400 And like the one. 2:13:44.240 --> 2:13:47.200 Thing that I noticed, which I think people might not 2:13:47.240 --> 2:13:51.080 have picked up on just sort of consuming media, the 2:13:51.120 --> 2:13:55.200 presence of people hope about martyrs as they call them, 2:13:55.280 --> 2:14:01.720 right Shahad. It's so it's everywhere. From the first place 2:14:01.760 --> 2:14:04.800 I stepped foot across the river, you know, there were 2:14:04.880 --> 2:14:09.840 these portraits, these yellow and green portraits on aroundabout since 2:14:09.840 --> 2:14:12.840 cities and people's homes. Like the scale of the sacrifice 2:14:13.000 --> 2:14:16.280 both to build this project and to defeat isis I 2:14:16.320 --> 2:14:18.440 think is very hot. I mean the United States has 2:14:18.480 --> 2:14:21.320 been all for most of our lives, but it hasn't 2:14:21.760 --> 2:14:24.080 nowhere near the same impact on our daily lives it 2:14:24.120 --> 2:14:24.720 has had there. 2:14:25.400 --> 2:14:27.160 Yeah, that's so true. 2:14:28.240 --> 2:14:31.160 There's not a family really in Rogeval. When you spend 2:14:31.200 --> 2:14:34.360 some time there and you meet with different people, there's 2:14:34.360 --> 2:14:37.000 not a single family that hasn't lost somebody. I mean, 2:14:37.000 --> 2:14:41.280 it's thirteen thousand people in the fight against ISIS alone 2:14:41.680 --> 2:14:44.720 and now, and not to mention, for example, the two 2:14:44.800 --> 2:14:49.640 hundred thousand people who were displaced when Turkey is you know, 2:14:50.080 --> 2:14:57.320 jihadi malicious invaded Aphrine, the westernmost region. So it's it's 2:14:58.640 --> 2:15:01.000 absolutely effective bree day life. 2:15:01.520 --> 2:15:04.520 Yeah, every time I spend a lot of time volunteering 2:15:04.520 --> 2:15:08.160 at the border, as people listening know, and every time 2:15:08.200 --> 2:15:12.200 we meet Kurdish people, often you know they're they're from 2:15:12.280 --> 2:15:16.080 like northern Kurdistan, which is in Turkey under in control 2:15:16.120 --> 2:15:19.040 of the Turkish state. I guess even like the volunteers 2:15:19.080 --> 2:15:21.640 who are not super briefed out shaba, who are just 2:15:21.840 --> 2:15:24.760 people who want to help. Like everyone knows what it 2:15:24.800 --> 2:15:26.680 means when people when you talk to people and they 2:15:26.720 --> 2:15:28.760 have the little green picture or the little little yellow 2:15:28.760 --> 2:15:32.240 picture on them, Yeah, which is it's a profound part 2:15:32.240 --> 2:15:34.720 of the lived experience of being part of the Kurdish 2:15:34.760 --> 2:15:37.080 freedom movement or just existing as a Kurdish person in 2:15:37.120 --> 2:15:40.640 that area. And that's it's it's really hard to grasp 2:15:40.720 --> 2:15:41.320 the scale of that. 2:15:42.240 --> 2:15:43.120 No, it's so true. 2:15:43.160 --> 2:15:45.800 I mean, it just makes me think that it's kind 2:15:45.880 --> 2:15:49.720 of related to this larger sort of spirit of sacrifice 2:15:49.800 --> 2:15:53.760 that's part of what the movement calls, like a revolutionary personality. 2:15:54.200 --> 2:15:58.120 You know, in a lot of ways, the families of 2:15:58.440 --> 2:16:00.960 you know what they call them martyrs, they also see 2:16:00.960 --> 2:16:04.720 it as their sacrifice, it's their contribution to the movement. 2:16:04.840 --> 2:16:08.320 And it's it's easy for I think Westerners to kind of, 2:16:08.920 --> 2:16:11.600 I don't know, dismiss it or get really uncomfortable with it. 2:16:11.760 --> 2:16:15.000 We're not familiar with that on a cultural level as much. 2:16:15.360 --> 2:16:18.200 But I think it's it's a mistake to see it 2:16:18.200 --> 2:16:22.920 that way. I think there's something incredibly profound about it 2:16:22.960 --> 2:16:25.520 that has to do with the way that people really 2:16:25.600 --> 2:16:28.880 identify their whole lives, the meaning of their lives with 2:16:29.240 --> 2:16:31.680 the revolution, with the movement, that that is what that 2:16:31.800 --> 2:16:33.640 is the purpose of their lives, that's the purpose of 2:16:33.680 --> 2:16:37.760 the life of their families and come what may. That's 2:16:37.800 --> 2:16:42.160 something that you know, movements here can't really relate to 2:16:42.240 --> 2:16:42.960 in the same way. 2:16:43.120 --> 2:16:46.760 Yet, I think, yeah, and I kind of want to 2:16:46.840 --> 2:16:49.480 talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna We're 2:16:49.520 --> 2:16:52.000 going to throw one last time to adds and then 2:16:52.280 --> 2:16:55.720 we'll come back and kind of flesh out this discussion, 2:17:07.280 --> 2:17:11.400 and we're back talking about like what it means to 2:17:11.520 --> 2:17:15.480 be part of a revolution as opposed to someone who 2:17:15.560 --> 2:17:18.840 has revolutionary sympathies, which it's easy to be and we 2:17:18.920 --> 2:17:20.840 have a lot of those in the United States. I'm 2:17:20.840 --> 2:17:22.320 going to guess most of the people listening to this 2:17:22.400 --> 2:17:25.200 show have at least some of those, right, whether or 2:17:25.280 --> 2:17:28.480 not you think there's any realistic chance of seeing that 2:17:28.640 --> 2:17:32.240 during your own life, it's a very different thing from 2:17:32.280 --> 2:17:36.080 being from living it, which people do. You know, about 2:17:36.080 --> 2:17:41.120 three million of them in Rosheva every day, And the 2:17:41.320 --> 2:17:45.359 sacrifice is a part of it. The kind of continual 2:17:47.000 --> 2:17:50.440 conflict is another part of it. Because you know, it's 2:17:50.480 --> 2:17:54.280 worth emphasizing we're about a decade into the project right now. 2:17:54.360 --> 2:17:56.879 Right if we consider that being from you know, the 2:17:56.879 --> 2:18:00.320 start of the self administration in varying fashion, and that's 2:18:00.440 --> 2:18:03.680 that's not like it's not a perfectly even process, right, 2:18:03.720 --> 2:18:07.680 because it occurred as part of this series of broader conflicts. 2:18:07.680 --> 2:18:10.800 But what you've seen is both the retreat of the 2:18:11.280 --> 2:18:16.200 government that had formerly controlled the area. You've seen a 2:18:16.240 --> 2:18:20.000 successful war prosecuted against isis you've seen when you could 2:18:20.040 --> 2:18:23.080 look at as one conflict or kind of a series 2:18:23.120 --> 2:18:25.879 of conflicts with both these Turkish backed militias and the 2:18:25.920 --> 2:18:31.240 Turkish military itself, and then this also this continuing conflict 2:18:32.000 --> 2:18:35.120 both with the environment, you know, just because that that 2:18:35.400 --> 2:18:39.879 is really that's a force at work here the Cold War, 2:18:39.959 --> 2:18:43.160 that kind of that's not even really a perfect way 2:18:43.160 --> 2:18:46.400 of describing the situation with the the Asad regime and 2:18:46.480 --> 2:18:49.360 with you know, their their backers in their Russian government, 2:18:49.400 --> 2:18:53.720 but it's a it's a complex, interwoven series of conflict. 2:18:53.879 --> 2:18:57.720 But kind of the result is just a life of 2:18:58.200 --> 2:19:02.039 conflict for the people who are are part of this 2:19:02.160 --> 2:19:05.560 revolution as sort of a just a fact of daily life. 2:19:05.600 --> 2:19:07.400 And I think that is really hard to grasp. 2:19:09.280 --> 2:19:11.480 I think that's true, and I think there's. 2:19:11.080 --> 2:19:12.520 Part of it, like you say, that has to do 2:19:12.640 --> 2:19:16.080 with the sort of objective situation where the conditions of 2:19:16.120 --> 2:19:19.120 people are living in this perpetual conflict that you're talking about, 2:19:19.640 --> 2:19:21.400 and at the same time, I think there's also an 2:19:21.440 --> 2:19:24.640 aspect that's more like, I don't know, like subjective, you 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:27.480 could call it. It has to do with the kind 2:19:27.480 --> 2:19:30.519 of movement that they've really actively been building for themselves, 2:19:31.360 --> 2:19:34.520 and the kind of spirit that their movement has taken 2:19:34.520 --> 2:19:38.680 on that they've cultivated themselves, sort of painstaking me for years. 2:19:38.760 --> 2:19:41.240 I mean, I think one of the things that I know, 2:19:41.280 --> 2:19:43.000 Debbie and I really want to get to in our 2:19:43.040 --> 2:19:48.240 conversations with the speaking tour that we're working on which 2:19:48.320 --> 2:19:50.800 is coming up later later this month on the West Coast, 2:19:50.879 --> 2:19:53.920 is we really, well, we want people to be. 2:19:53.879 --> 2:19:55.240 Inspired by this revolution. 2:19:55.360 --> 2:19:57.960 We really don't want people to just see it as 2:19:58.000 --> 2:20:00.880 this very like other thing on the other side of 2:20:00.920 --> 2:20:05.199 the world. You know, even those who are really supportive, 2:20:05.360 --> 2:20:09.480 especially us, you know anarchistory, say, fellow travelers, we have 2:20:09.520 --> 2:20:13.400 a tendency to kind of maybe oversimplify or romanticize what's 2:20:13.440 --> 2:20:15.960 happening over there and think, oh, well, you know, if 2:20:16.360 --> 2:20:19.080 the state could just collapse here, I'm sure everybody would 2:20:19.120 --> 2:20:23.480 just sort of like melt into an anarchist utopia of statelessness, 2:20:23.480 --> 2:20:26.720 and that would be a mistake too. I think the 2:20:26.760 --> 2:20:30.240 truth is that what Rojava shows you is a real 2:20:30.280 --> 2:20:34.560 revolution is incredibly messy, and they only were able to 2:20:34.680 --> 2:20:39.199 kind of face the threats and the opportunities that crisis 2:20:39.240 --> 2:20:41.600 brought to them in Syria because of the kind of 2:20:41.600 --> 2:20:44.560 movement they had built for themselves, and they had these 2:20:44.600 --> 2:20:49.359 practical tools to kind of help local communities govern themselves 2:20:49.760 --> 2:20:53.439 in that sort of chaos in the power vacuum that arose. 2:20:53.520 --> 2:20:56.800 And you know, in a moment like this the world over, 2:20:57.120 --> 2:20:59.520 especially here in the United States, you know, we're the 2:20:59.600 --> 2:21:02.160 cris that we're facing, the crisis that we're looking down 2:21:02.160 --> 2:21:05.200 the barrel of I think there's been no more kind 2:21:05.280 --> 2:21:08.120 of relevant or urgent time to think about how those 2:21:08.200 --> 2:21:11.520 lessons actually could apply here and what it means for us. 2:21:11.640 --> 2:21:13.520 What kind of movement do we need to build to 2:21:13.560 --> 2:21:15.000 be ready for that moment. 2:21:15.640 --> 2:21:18.480 Yeah, you know, I really agree, And Robert, I'm glad 2:21:18.520 --> 2:21:21.600 you mentioned, you know, the fact that the revolution is 2:21:21.640 --> 2:21:24.960 over ten years old, because I think, you know, And 2:21:25.000 --> 2:21:27.120 to follow up sort of just on what Arthur was 2:21:27.160 --> 2:21:30.480 saying that sort of sometimes the crises that we face 2:21:30.680 --> 2:21:36.760 environmentally logical, global warming, and not to mention democracy itself, 2:21:37.120 --> 2:21:42.120 you know, can seem almost paralyzing, or that we're constantly 2:21:43.000 --> 2:21:46.520 in a state of reaction. But one of the things 2:21:46.560 --> 2:21:51.040 that the revolution in Roseeve teaches us is that, first 2:21:51.040 --> 2:21:54.279 of all, that moments of crisis can also be moments 2:21:54.320 --> 2:21:59.720 of great transformation, but really only if we're prepared for them. 2:22:00.120 --> 2:22:03.360 And that's why, you know, whenever I talk about the 2:22:03.440 --> 2:22:07.560 Roji of a project, I feel it's important to remind 2:22:07.680 --> 2:22:12.200 people that it didn't just spring miraculously out of nowhere 2:22:12.760 --> 2:22:16.039 in the moment of the Syrian Civil War. The folks 2:22:16.040 --> 2:22:18.840 on the ground there had really been preparing for years, 2:22:19.200 --> 2:22:22.840 I mean decades, even for the opportunity that opened up 2:22:22.920 --> 2:22:27.680 for them during the Syrian Civil War. And in various ways, 2:22:27.680 --> 2:22:30.600 of course, they were educating themselves on radical history and 2:22:31.080 --> 2:22:37.080 particular understanding, you know, the failures of classical Marxism, Leninism, 2:22:37.320 --> 2:22:40.840 you know, which had been embraced previously by the PKK, 2:22:41.520 --> 2:22:46.640 and putting also into practice clandestinely the kinds of grassroots 2:22:47.080 --> 2:22:51.880 democratic social structures that we see operating on the ground 2:22:51.879 --> 2:22:54.840 there today. So I think that that's one of the 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:59.200 lessons that we hear in the US can absorb that 2:22:59.560 --> 2:23:03.240 you know that we need to be able to exploit 2:23:03.320 --> 2:23:07.080 the crisis of legitimacy that's growing here today, thinking about 2:23:07.600 --> 2:23:10.199 what kind of alternatives we want to build and showing 2:23:10.240 --> 2:23:15.720 people that those alternatives exist, you know these Yeah, that, 2:23:15.920 --> 2:23:19.160 and you know that's includes engaging in a kind of 2:23:19.240 --> 2:23:25.560 prefigurative politics that really focuses on things like dual power, 2:23:26.160 --> 2:23:32.160 you know, cooperative economic project but also local assembly, democratic politics. 2:23:32.440 --> 2:23:34.520 So that's one of the things that I'm also really 2:23:34.560 --> 2:23:38.760 excited about talking about talking about as Arthur and I 2:23:38.840 --> 2:23:43.039 make our way from Seattle down to San Francisco and 2:23:43.120 --> 2:23:48.400 Oakland during the course of these six presentations and chats 2:23:48.400 --> 2:23:52.240 and talks and discussions that we're really excited about having 2:23:52.840 --> 2:23:55.120 beginning next weekend. 2:23:55.800 --> 2:23:58.320 Yeah yeah, yeah. Let's let's let's provide people with a 2:23:58.320 --> 2:24:00.959 little bit of information on how, you know, they might 2:24:01.000 --> 2:24:03.240 be able to attend and take part in that. So 2:24:04.120 --> 2:24:06.800 what should folks look up and look into if they 2:24:07.240 --> 2:24:09.240 if they're interested in where are you guys going to be? 2:24:10.560 --> 2:24:14.000 Absolutely? Yeah, thanks. I think the best thing people can 2:24:14.080 --> 2:24:18.200 do is go to defend dot org. That's the website 2:24:18.200 --> 2:24:21.960 for the Emergency Committee for Roje our group. But right 2:24:21.959 --> 2:24:24.320 there the front page. You're going to see a poster 2:24:24.480 --> 2:24:27.039 for our tour that you can click on. It'll take 2:24:27.080 --> 2:24:29.720 you to links for all the different stops that we're 2:24:29.720 --> 2:24:31.520 going to do. We're going to be making our way 2:24:31.520 --> 2:24:34.680 all the way from Bellingham, Washington, which is up near 2:24:34.680 --> 2:24:37.879 the border of Canada, down to the Bay Area, and 2:24:37.920 --> 2:24:38.879 you know, we really wish we. 2:24:38.840 --> 2:24:40.480 Could make more cities. 2:24:40.520 --> 2:24:44.680 There are a couple events that are our comrades and 2:24:44.760 --> 2:24:48.439 colleagues are organizing on the East Coast around the same timeframe, 2:24:48.560 --> 2:24:51.000 so be sure to look up the calendar on our website. 2:24:51.400 --> 2:24:54.840 But people can go to defend dot org to hear more. 2:24:54.879 --> 2:24:58.000 But the basic idea, like Debbie said, is we want 2:24:58.000 --> 2:25:00.080 to talk to people not only about what's going on 2:25:00.120 --> 2:25:02.640 in Rogievo, why we think it matters how they can 2:25:02.920 --> 2:25:06.680 stand in solidarity, but we want to talk about what 2:25:06.760 --> 2:25:09.080 we're going to do in our own communities to take 2:25:09.080 --> 2:25:12.520 those lessons and to apply them to our own context. 2:25:12.600 --> 2:25:15.480 We want to help connect. 2:25:15.040 --> 2:25:18.840 People who are doing you know, real community organizing in 2:25:19.600 --> 2:25:23.560 local movements and to try to kind of inspire and 2:25:23.600 --> 2:25:27.360 strengthen what's already going on, rather than just to see 2:25:27.360 --> 2:25:31.360 this as being strictly about Rocheva, because I mean, y'all 2:25:31.360 --> 2:25:33.440 probably were told the same thing. When when you're over 2:25:33.440 --> 2:25:35.600 there and you ask people what can we do to support, 2:25:36.240 --> 2:25:38.400 one of the things they'll tell you is you've got 2:25:38.400 --> 2:25:42.160 to organize the revolution at home. And that's on us, 2:25:42.200 --> 2:25:45.480 you know, it's a it's a it's easier said than done, right, 2:25:45.560 --> 2:25:47.600 And we're not saying we have all the answers, But 2:25:47.680 --> 2:25:50.680 what we do want to do is to invite local 2:25:50.720 --> 2:25:55.000 grassroots activists especially to come join the discussion and let's 2:25:55.000 --> 2:25:58.039 talk together about what it would mean to apply these 2:25:58.080 --> 2:26:00.959 basic principles, not to copy and payte then, but to 2:26:01.080 --> 2:26:04.960 apply these basic principles and lessons, principles of direct democracy, 2:26:05.480 --> 2:26:09.640 local autonomy, you know, cooperation, feminism. We haven't even talked 2:26:09.680 --> 2:26:12.759 about how central you know, gender liberation. 2:26:12.440 --> 2:26:14.600 Is to the Kurdish freedom movement. How do we apply 2:26:14.640 --> 2:26:16.120 these things in our own communities. 2:26:16.360 --> 2:26:17.040 Yeah. 2:26:17.080 --> 2:26:18.880 And one of the things, by the way, if people 2:26:18.879 --> 2:26:22.440 are interested in getting some more detail and a real 2:26:22.560 --> 2:26:26.880 inside look at what is going on in Rojaeven detail 2:26:27.320 --> 2:26:32.760 is that Arthur has two pieces in the magazine Strange Matters, 2:26:32.840 --> 2:26:36.680 which is also online, which are just terrific and they're 2:26:36.720 --> 2:26:38.600 part of a series that he's going to be doing 2:26:38.720 --> 2:26:41.480 i think monthly over the over the next few months, 2:26:42.440 --> 2:26:45.959 and so that's some great background as well. 2:26:46.560 --> 2:26:48.920 Aw shucks, Yeah, it's fantastic, Stev. 2:26:49.640 --> 2:26:51.120 Yeah, woe, thank you. 2:26:51.959 --> 2:26:55.120 Yeah. Check that out obviously, folks if you're if you haven't, 2:26:55.120 --> 2:26:57.400 We've also got a podcast series, The Women's War, that 2:26:58.040 --> 2:27:01.560 covers the earlier history of the Rajavian Revolution up to 2:27:01.600 --> 2:27:07.040 about twenty nineteen, late twenty nineteen, which will cover quite 2:27:07.040 --> 2:27:10.840 a bit of the impact that kind of this sort 2:27:10.879 --> 2:27:14.520 of feminist lens has had on what's happening over there 2:27:14.560 --> 2:27:18.240 and how it's actually persisted, you know, under the conditions 2:27:18.520 --> 2:27:21.720 that are really kind of almost impossibly challenging when you 2:27:21.760 --> 2:27:23.840 look at what these people are up against, which is 2:27:23.879 --> 2:27:28.879 part of again, I guess ultimately why, as we've repeatedly 2:27:28.920 --> 2:27:31.000 come back to, I think this is so important for 2:27:31.080 --> 2:27:34.199 people in the West to study as things get worse 2:27:34.400 --> 2:27:36.680 for a lot of folks here and as we attempt 2:27:36.720 --> 2:27:42.200 to arrest and take charge of the situation in our 2:27:42.200 --> 2:27:44.280 own lives. You know, we have all these questions about 2:27:44.320 --> 2:27:47.600 how do we stop our government from arming not just Turkey, 2:27:47.640 --> 2:27:49.880 but all of these regimes around the world that are 2:27:49.879 --> 2:27:50.840 doing such terrible things. 2:27:50.879 --> 2:27:51.680 How do we stop? 2:27:51.760 --> 2:27:54.560 How do we arrest you know, these problems that are 2:27:54.600 --> 2:27:58.320 continuing to affect you know, really ultimately, billions of people 2:27:58.400 --> 2:28:02.920 around the world's taking charge of our own lives, and 2:28:02.959 --> 2:28:04.880 the same way that these people have. It's kind of 2:28:04.920 --> 2:28:09.560 making that slogan of the Rejaban revolution, you know, resistance 2:28:09.640 --> 2:28:13.680 is life. Actually embracing that in a way that matters, 2:28:13.920 --> 2:28:16.840 and when you focus on sort of the challenges to 2:28:17.040 --> 2:28:19.480 like the sheer amount of work that has to be 2:28:19.560 --> 2:28:22.680 done here, the very primitive state of any kind of 2:28:23.040 --> 2:28:27.520 meaningful resistance, the relatively primitive state of organizing on the left, 2:28:27.560 --> 2:28:30.520 compared to, for example, the organizing that the right does 2:28:30.560 --> 2:28:34.000 in tandem with paramilitaries in the state. It can seem 2:28:34.040 --> 2:28:39.720 like an impossible challenge. But ten years on, the people 2:28:39.800 --> 2:28:43.120 in northeast Syria are still are still fighting, you know, 2:28:43.360 --> 2:28:46.000 and I think you have to. I think paying attention 2:28:46.080 --> 2:28:49.640 to that makes it clear that it is actually possible 2:28:50.120 --> 2:28:50.480 to win. 2:28:51.360 --> 2:28:52.080 So true. 2:28:52.440 --> 2:28:54.680 Well, I guess that's kind of it for us today. 2:28:55.200 --> 2:28:58.440 Is there anything else we want to plug? I just 2:28:58.440 --> 2:29:00.160 wanted to go out on a better note. 2:29:00.640 --> 2:29:05.280 Yeah, I'm writing a piece for Kurdish Peace Institute. I'm 2:29:05.320 --> 2:29:07.959 manifesting this on the podcast, so I've actually write it 2:29:08.320 --> 2:29:13.120 about Mian Mah Kurdistan solidarity, which I think is cool. 2:29:13.320 --> 2:29:14.400 So like great topic. 2:29:14.480 --> 2:29:18.320 Yes, yeah, I don't think we have a lot of time, 2:29:18.440 --> 2:29:21.680 but I think that one thing that I've learned from 2:29:22.280 --> 2:29:25.959 the friends in Roche is that, like, even when you 2:29:26.000 --> 2:29:28.720 are going through difficulties, you can still stand in solidarity 2:29:28.760 --> 2:29:31.280 with other people. And God knows we're all going through 2:29:31.280 --> 2:29:36.880 difficulties in economic and political and state violence terms in 2:29:36.920 --> 2:29:40.240 this country, and I think that like one thing I 2:29:40.280 --> 2:29:44.240 really took from that was that it's never too hard 2:29:44.240 --> 2:29:46.280 for you to be in solidarity. And I hope that 2:29:46.360 --> 2:29:50.400 folks who are in this country will appreciate that and 2:29:50.440 --> 2:29:52.920 be in solidarity with people in Roche as well. 2:29:54.879 --> 2:30:00.160 Absolutely, well, Wie Arthur, thank you both so much for 2:30:00.200 --> 2:30:02.800 being here with us, and thank you for continuing to 2:30:02.840 --> 2:30:05.280 do the work that you do to keep this topic 2:30:05.320 --> 2:30:07.080 alive in people's hearts and minds. 2:30:08.080 --> 2:30:09.160 Thank you all so much. 2:30:09.520 --> 2:30:10.959 Yeah, always happy. 2:30:11.120 --> 2:30:13.000 Yeah, keep up the great work yourselves. 2:30:13.840 --> 2:30:16.280 All right, everybody, that's the episode. We will be back 2:30:16.320 --> 2:30:18.440 tomorrow unless this comes out on a Friday, in which 2:30:18.440 --> 2:30:20.640 case we might not be back tomorrow, but we'll be back, 2:30:20.800 --> 2:30:27.360 you know, Monday. You understand how this works at this point, right? 2:30:29.400 --> 2:30:31.920 It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:30:32.000 --> 2:30:34.640 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:30:34.720 --> 2:30:36.920 cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 2:30:36.959 --> 2:30:40.360 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:30:40.959 --> 2:30:43.080 You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated 2:30:43.160 --> 2:30:47.199 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening. 2:30:47.640 --> 2:30:50.800 Hey, We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week 2:30:50.840 --> 2:30:52.760 from now until the heat death of the Universe.