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Speaker 1: A media Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. The

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Speaker 2: past few years, we have regularly covered the rise of

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Speaker 2: legislation that restricts access to public space and medical care

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Speaker 2: for trans people in the United States, as well as

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Speaker 2: attempts by politicians, lobbying groups, and media personalities to drum

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Speaker 2: up transphobia in hopes of quote unquote eliminating transgenderism from

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Speaker 2: our society and culture. The quest to eliminate transgenderism includes harassment,

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Speaker 2: care campaigns targeted against specific individuals, boycotting companies that feature

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Speaker 2: trans people in their marketing, and banning queer books, media,

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Speaker 2: and art from libraries across the country. The conservative right

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Speaker 2: has decided that the boogeyman of gender ideology and the

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Speaker 2: woke mind virus is one of the most pressing threats

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Speaker 2: to Western civilization. This brand of transphobic militancy opposes any

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Speaker 2: form of visible queerness, viewing it as an ideology that

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Speaker 2: acts as a viral cultural contagion. That's why they spend

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Speaker 2: so much time trying to ban drag shows and art

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Speaker 2: featuring queer people. They know they're losing the cultural battle

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Speaker 2: and that really scares them. As trans people have been

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Speaker 2: trying to weather this huge wave of organized transphobia, Trans

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Speaker 2: and queer artists continue to push forward, with multiple hit

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Speaker 2: films coming out this year from trans directors and transactors

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Speaker 2: and actresses are taking more and more high profile roles.

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Speaker 2: Last episode, I interviewed comedian Ella Yerman and filmmaker Ver

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Speaker 2: Drew on the process of creating independent queer media. This

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Speaker 2: episode will focus on why we are seeing this new

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Speaker 2: wave of queer art, why mere representation isn't enough, and

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Speaker 2: attempts to go beyond the online media ecosystem. Ellie Yerman

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Speaker 2: is the host of Late Stage Lives, a Queer gen

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Speaker 2: Z public access late night show on Brooklyn Public Access

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Speaker 2: and YouTube. The format of late night comedy is almost

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Speaker 2: wholly dominated by old white, sis straight men. Late Stage

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Speaker 2: Live attempts to deconstruct the genre in which it aligns

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Speaker 2: itself with, utilizing sketches, correspondence segments, and original reporting, but

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Speaker 2: for a younger, queerer, more politically radical audience. The show

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Speaker 2: is not just made for gen Z queers. It's also

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Speaker 2: made by an entire team of young, queer and trans people,

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Speaker 2: which gives it a very unique feel compared to literally

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Speaker 2: all of its competition. The show itself feels queer and

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Speaker 2: highlights the massive gap between simple queer representation and queer art,

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Speaker 2: or in this case, queer late night comedy. There's a

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Speaker 2: palpable distinction between hiring a gay person to work on

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Speaker 2: seth Myers versus having a late night show that is

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Speaker 2: built on queerness. On that note, here's a clip from

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Speaker 2: my interview with Ella Yeerman, host of Late Stage Live.

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Speaker 3: There's like a huge difference between like the token queer

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Speaker 3: writer and like a show that centers queerness and transness.

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Speaker 3: And I'm really proud of of that. As in terms

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Speaker 3: of our show, like, I think that's one of its

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Speaker 3: main drives is how queer focused. It is something we

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Speaker 3: talk about in every episode, in every piece. Reid loves

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Speaker 3: to hammer this home is sort of the question of

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Speaker 3: why us. It's the first question we ask when anyone

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Speaker 3: pitches any segment or piece or story of the question

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Speaker 3: is like, what's the game, what's the perspective? And then

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Speaker 3: why is it us delivering this perspective? Because anyone can

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Speaker 3: write a piece of political analysis, lots of people do,

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Speaker 3: but like, what about this story is uniquely coming from us,

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Speaker 3: uniquely coming from the host ella, from the writer's room.

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Speaker 3: And I think we found it most strongly in the

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Speaker 3: last two pieces, the Lives of Stickock piece, and then

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Speaker 3: the episode before that, we did a segment on the

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Speaker 3: Alliance Defending Freedom, which is a spooky, evil conservative cabal

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Speaker 3: that trains lawyers to overturn Scotis cases. And I think

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Speaker 3: those both found felt really focused in on sort of

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Speaker 3: us as young queer people. And I think the gen

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Speaker 3: Z part is also really relevant for us. A lot

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Speaker 3: of Late Night is hosted by old men, and as

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Speaker 3: much as I love John Stewart, he is an old man,

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Speaker 3: an old sis, white man, an old sis, as far

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Speaker 3: as I know, heterosexual white man.

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Speaker 2: Who already left the job ten years ago.

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Speaker 3: And he already left it right, and he's back now,

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Speaker 3: but like what does that say about anything?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and everyone talking about politics is like old white guys,

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Speaker 3: and everyone in Congress is old white guys or George Santos,

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Speaker 3: And there's like this sense of like the world is ending,

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Speaker 3: as you probably know on this show that bills itself

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Speaker 3: as like amidst the collapse or whatever your tagline is.

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Speaker 5: But like gen Z is so.

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Speaker 3: Uniquely affected by political goings on in a way that

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Speaker 3: I say this is true of every general, every youngest generation,

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Speaker 3: that like all of the decisions are impacting us most,

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Speaker 3: but it feels more urgent these days because the world

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Speaker 3: is ending with climate change and with the encroaching you know,

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Speaker 3: global fascism, and with the decay of late stage capitalism,

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Speaker 3: that it feels so important now more than ever to

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Speaker 3: like center those experiences and look at how the world

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Speaker 3: and the news and politics impacts these groups of people.

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Speaker 3: And the way we achieve that is, Yeah, we don't

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Speaker 3: just have one token queer writer.

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Speaker 6: We are.

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Speaker 3: Our room is all queer, largely trans About half of

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Speaker 3: our writer's room is non one, and as we grow,

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Speaker 3: that number will either stay the same or get bigger,

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Speaker 3: certainly not smaller. Yeah, At the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: I think the fact that the room is completely queer

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Speaker 3: and predominantly trans and non white and all young, it

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Speaker 3: just like sort of happens, And the fact that it

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Speaker 3: started that way and has been built from the ground

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Speaker 3: up that way, I think gives us a huge edge.

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Speaker 3: Even if the daily shows fired all of their writers

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Speaker 3: and hired only trans people, I think it would be

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Speaker 3: a hard pivot to get the show to suddenly be

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Speaker 3: doing what we're doing, just because the whole structure is

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Speaker 3: built differently.

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Speaker 2: In Vera Drew's new movie The People's Joker, an autobiographical

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Speaker 2: transgender coming of age parody set in the Batman universe,

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Speaker 2: the shallowness of queer representation is actually one of the

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Speaker 2: core themes of the film. In the movie, the main

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Speaker 2: character is not satisfied by simply being a token diversity

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Speaker 2: higher for a late night comedy show, and instead hijacks

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Speaker 2: the airwaves and charts her own path. This plotline, like

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Speaker 2: many others, mirrors the director's own life, and the movie

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Speaker 2: itself is a perfect example of how creating a piece

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Speaker 2: of art inherently built on a multimedia experience of queerness

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Speaker 2: will produce a wildly different result. Than simply having a

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Speaker 2: gay person in the writer's room. Here's a clip from

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Speaker 2: my interview with Vera Drew. It's not even that I

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Speaker 2: feel like queer representation is like too straight or cist.

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Speaker 2: It's just not even like an accurate reflection of queer reality.

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Speaker 2: You know, Like every gay couple I know is nothing

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Speaker 2: like a straight couple. I mean some of them are,

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Speaker 2: but like those those gay couples always break up, like

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Speaker 2: it's like they're just they're just in you know, reenacting

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Speaker 2: cycles and thousands and thousands of years of patriarchal bullshit

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Speaker 2: on each other when they could just be having hot

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Speaker 2: gay sacks with each other. And like that to me

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Speaker 2: is like the biggest tragedy of like representation. And it's

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Speaker 2: like is also why I think people lash out at

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Speaker 2: us so much. Like I on one level, I understand

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Speaker 2: the idea of like this is getting shoved down our throats,

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Speaker 2: you know, because like it kind of is that's coming

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Speaker 2: from a place that I sort of agree with, because

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Speaker 2: they're getting sold this like propaganda that it's like they're

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Speaker 2: just like us, you know, and like to me, it's

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Speaker 2: like my experience is so specific to me and so

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Speaker 2: specific to you know, like the experience of a trans woman.

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Speaker 2: There are things about my life that are similar to

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Speaker 2: that of assis woman but not certainly not identical. So

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Speaker 2: like I never want to see art that is that.

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Speaker 2: I also, I'm like really over trans people being used

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Speaker 2: in a way that they're either I mean, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: really happen anymore where they're like treated like freaks, but

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Speaker 2: like it's kind of the tragedy porn or kind of

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Speaker 2: pedestalizing us. I guess, like I hate that, like my

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Speaker 2: identity is inherently political, like just because I I this

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Speaker 2: is who I am, Like I it's not a pleasant

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Speaker 2: situation to deal with. So I think with joker, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I want people joker, I really wanted to talk about

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Speaker 2: representation in a way that also just wasn't annoying because

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Speaker 2: like I also, it's not even that I'm tired of

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Speaker 2: having this conversation. It's just sad that people like us

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Speaker 2: keep men having to have this kind of conversation because

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Speaker 2: like I've also heard it now within our own community

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Speaker 2: that like you know, I've heard other trans filmmakers say

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Speaker 2: like we should only be telling happy stories, we should

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Speaker 2: only be spreading queer joy or what absolutely not No, absolutely,

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Speaker 2: not like it's that's embarrassing. Yeah, I want I want

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Speaker 2: to spread queer panic. I want to it's not even panic,

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Speaker 2: just like queer existential uh horror, I suppose I don't know.

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Speaker 7: Well, I mean for me, it's like I don't know,

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Speaker 7: like because I've gotten shipped to not I haven't gotten

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Speaker 7: a lot. And now honestly that I've started mentioning in

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Speaker 7: the press, people have said it to me as much

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Speaker 7: just good, but like I was getting a little bit

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Speaker 7: of the like how oh making the joker a murderous

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Speaker 7: trans woman?

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Speaker 8: Okay, you know please?

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Speaker 7: First of all, like villains are queer coded the history

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Speaker 7: of film, Oh, almost all of the bad villains are

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Speaker 7: queer coded except completely, And like why can't so why

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Speaker 7: can't a why can't we do it like not in

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Speaker 7: a subtext way? Why can't we just do it directly?

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Speaker 7: And then also like I live in a country that

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Speaker 7: villainizes trans people, so like why can't I process that

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Speaker 7: very thing by making myself a queer villain in a

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Speaker 7: in a movie that I made? And and I don't know,

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Speaker 7: it's like I think what I hate about the queer

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Speaker 7: joy thing and the like the people's Joker is like

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Speaker 7: a very funny movie. It's very pel it's very campy,

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Speaker 7: but it's also like devastating, you know, like it's it's

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Speaker 7: got a very serious message to it that I think

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Speaker 7: it brings up a lot of emotion in people when

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Speaker 7: they watch it, both SIS people and trans people, And

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Speaker 7: you know, I think that speaks to something else, just

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Speaker 7: like about representation is like I told this story that

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Speaker 7: was so specific to my experience, and like trans people

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Speaker 7: are identifying with it and relating to it, but so

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Speaker 7: are CIS people, you know, Like yes, like you know,

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Speaker 7: we should be telling stories that portray the trans experience

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Speaker 7: honestly or the queer experience honestly and specifically. And if

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Speaker 7: we do that, like if we do that effectively, that

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Speaker 7: is still art that a SIS person can consume because

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Speaker 7: SIS people also go through transitions. SIS people also have

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Speaker 7: to die and be reborn sometimes, and like I think

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Speaker 7: just everybody kind of comes of age. It's just like

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Speaker 7: trans people and we were people kind of have to

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Speaker 7: do it more visibly and publicly and externally a lot

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Speaker 7: of the times. And and uh, I don't know, for me,

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Speaker 7: it's like that was like another reason too of like

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Speaker 7: of just being like no, like we're gonna get this

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Speaker 7: out into theaters and and you know, like make this

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Speaker 7: kind of theatrical experience before anything else. You know, it

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Speaker 7: was always made made to be like viewed, I think

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Speaker 7: with like a crowd of people like yeah, yeah, kind

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Speaker 7: of like a midnight movie vibe.

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Speaker 2: I guess when you think about it, Jesus and the

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Speaker 2: Joker I do have a lot in common in terms

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Speaker 2: of getting baptized, getting bored again. It's it's really very

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Speaker 2: similar characters.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I mean that's why, uh, because I think

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Speaker 7: this was something while Brie and I were writing the

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Speaker 7: movie that she was constantly every step of the way

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Speaker 7: like what are you doing, like why are you bringing

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Speaker 7: this much like gnostic Christianity to this?

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Speaker 8: Absolutely?

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Speaker 7: Uh? Like I I remember, you know, there's this like

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Speaker 7: French song that's in the movie called I'll Be Your

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Speaker 7: Joker that's composed and performed by Emily Sloan, and the

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Speaker 7: lyrics to that are a poem that I wrote that

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Speaker 7: are just.

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Speaker 8: You never like it's not in anywhere in the movie.

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Speaker 7: It's just in that song. But it's like this, it's

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Speaker 7: the people's joker prophecy, Like I actually wrote it in

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Speaker 7: this like kind of Gnostic Bible structure, and then we

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Speaker 7: translated it to French and recorded it as a song

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Speaker 7: and like that was like really kind of coming from

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Speaker 7: that place of like just really I love I mean,

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Speaker 7: I'm obsessed with Jesus uh, and I kind of just

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Speaker 7: always have have been, Like I was raised Catholic and

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Speaker 7: I just I'm I'm not Christian, but I have a

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Speaker 7: lot of Jesus stuff around my house. Like I'm I'm

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Speaker 7: just obsessed with like the iconography and really love it

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Speaker 7: the story itself as like a myth and like the

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Speaker 7: mythic understanding of of death and rebirth, and also just

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Speaker 7: thinking of it as like another example of like the

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Speaker 7: hero's journey. And I don't know, like it's somebody asked

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Speaker 7: me at a Q and A like how basically like

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Speaker 7: how do you have the balls to like cause by

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Speaker 7: the end of the People's Joker, like you basically find

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Speaker 7: out it's like cut it is like Dune. There's like

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Speaker 7: a weird Messiah story happening, And that partially just comes

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Speaker 7: from like I think for me, queerness is inherently like

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Speaker 7: a very spiritual experience. It just has been for me,

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Speaker 7: and I think a lot of trans people actually deal

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Speaker 7: with Messiah complexes. I think it's something that I feel

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Speaker 7: safe saying I have, and I also really wanted to

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Speaker 7: unpack that just idea of the like Joseph Campbell White

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Speaker 7: Savior Hero's journey thing.

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Speaker 2: It could happen here. We'll return after these messages we

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Speaker 2: now return to it could happen here. During my interview

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Speaker 2: with Vera Drew, she mentioned it something about not just

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Speaker 2: wanting to throw the movie up on YouTube when the

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Speaker 2: film is dealing with legal issues resulting in uncertainty around

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Speaker 2: how the film would be released, And that got me

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Speaker 2: thinking about queer people's relationship to platforms like YouTube as

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Speaker 2: the sort of default way of sharing video art. A

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Speaker 2: big reason why is simply because the platform is so

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Speaker 2: accessible without many of the hurdles and roadblocks of more

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Speaker 2: traditional distribution models. But sometimes I worry that it's become

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Speaker 2: so default that our reliance on YouTube has actually become

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Speaker 2: a self limiting factor that overdetermines the scope of our

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Speaker 2: own art. Let's return to my interview with Vera Drew

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Speaker 2: to continue this topic. Queer people, specifically trans people have

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Speaker 2: kind of been stuck with a lot of their art

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Speaker 2: or video art just becoming this thing that you throw

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Speaker 2: up on YouTube. We've done a good job in making

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Speaker 2: like a community there, I suppose, but at certain points

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Speaker 2: it feels very like insular, like we've created this little

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Speaker 2: tiny bubble that everything is just trapped inside of. Because

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Speaker 2: obviously we can't like rely on like big studios to

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Speaker 2: make our own stuff or distribute our own stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: That's not happening either. But I feel like we're kind

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Speaker 2: of kicking ourselves in the foot if our only artistic

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Speaker 2: output is like techno music and YouTube video essays, both

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Speaker 2: of which can be good, both of which can be art.

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Speaker 2: But there's a whole other world out there that I

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Speaker 2: feel like we have closed ourselves off from, and so

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of interested, like like on that choice to

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Speaker 2: like not put it on YouTube and actually like ride

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Speaker 2: this thing out as like a movie.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that is Uh, it's it's such a

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Speaker 7: relief to hear you talk about it in that way, because, yeah,

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Speaker 7: I never want to be dismissive of online creators.

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Speaker 8: Sure, Like I worked in TV.

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Speaker 7: For ten years as a editor, and I was very

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Speaker 7: fortunate to work on a lot of really cool shit,

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Speaker 7: Like I worked on my first job was I was

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Speaker 7: an intern on The Eric Andre Show, and like then

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Speaker 7: my job immediately after that was on Nathan for You,

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Speaker 7: So I really got to work with like all these

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Speaker 7: really amazing comedians, many geniuses, and in that process like

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Speaker 7: always knew I had wanted to make film, Like my

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Speaker 7: earliest memories are are wanting to make films. Like right

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Speaker 7: around the time I saw Batman Forever, I was like,

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Speaker 7: I want to be a director, and I came up

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Speaker 7: in post production just because like a lot of editors

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Speaker 7: end up sort of following, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 7: editors are really just direct like frustrated directors. So I

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Speaker 7: was kind of like, here's a place where I could

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Speaker 7: like sort of learn my craft. And I've always loved

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Speaker 7: experimental animation and visual effects and stuff and also just

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Speaker 7: like incorporate that as well into like my career. And

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Speaker 7: it's good. I'm so glad I had it as like

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Speaker 7: an incubation period for me to kind of find my

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Speaker 7: voice and my aesthetic and and learn a lot from

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Speaker 7: these like super talented people. But there was always this

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Speaker 7: frustration that I had because when I would take stuff

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Speaker 7: out to pitch or anything that was like my own story,

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Speaker 7: like you can't really get trans art made in any

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Speaker 7: sort of mainstream space. I think that's one of the

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Speaker 7: things that's most frustrating about the whole like woke culture bullshit,

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Speaker 7: just because it's like they act like we're some sort

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Speaker 7: of like elite class that's like favored by the media,

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Speaker 7: which it's like I can just tell you, like that's

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Speaker 7: I'm on my press week right now. Like the media

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Speaker 7: is certainly enamored with trans people, but like I don't

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Speaker 7: think it's like coming from a place of like we're

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Speaker 7: trying to change and put everything and you know, make

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Speaker 7: these people in charge. It's just uh, you know, it's

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Speaker 7: it's click baity and it gets people, it keeps people

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Speaker 7: arguing online. So it's very hard just to even break

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Speaker 7: through as a director too. Like I mean I was

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Speaker 7: at that, you know, forget pitching shows that I've written

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Speaker 7: or whatever, like just trying to get episodic TV work.

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Speaker 7: I just couldn't do it, like once I changed my pronouns,

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Speaker 7: Like I was literally up for jobs that went away

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Speaker 7: after I came out. So I just reached this point

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Speaker 7: of like I think, maximum frustration and kind of like

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Speaker 7: wanted to whatever I did, you know, I don't want

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Speaker 7: to say like I was ready to walk away from

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Speaker 7: like working in the industry in twenty nineteen, but I

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Speaker 7: kind of was like I was kind of just at

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Speaker 7: this point where I was like, I need to make

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Speaker 7: a fucking movie or something on my own and kind

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Speaker 7: of just put all I have into that, and that's

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Speaker 7: going to be the way people will either finally take

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Speaker 7: me seriously as a director, or like I'll at least

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Speaker 7: have made a movie and then I can just be

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Speaker 7: in debt and I'll have a movie I made. So

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Speaker 7: to me, it was always about not necessarily like finally

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Speaker 7: being taken seriously by my indus, but just like kind

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Speaker 7: of making this giant piece of art that is not

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Speaker 7: only like a big like look what I can do,

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Speaker 7: you know style thing, but like is also just about

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Speaker 7: all of that about the frustration of being allowed in

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Speaker 7: but only being allowed in in these certain ways, like

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Speaker 7: whether it's on like a diversity cast or like, you

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Speaker 7: know whatever. Like I was, I worked on the show.

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Speaker 7: I can't really talk about it because it's like NDA

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Speaker 7: stuff and I don't think the show will ever come out.

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Speaker 7: But I was in the writer's room on a cartoon

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Speaker 7: that was being rebooted and it was one of my

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Speaker 7: favorite cartoons of all time. But I had a day

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Speaker 7: where I was like just sitting in the writer's room

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Speaker 7: and I was like looking around at my coworkers and

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Speaker 7: it was I was like, oh, wait a minute, it's

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Speaker 7: all girls, and I'm I'm a girl, and I'm a

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Speaker 7: trans girl. We're all just being brought in to rehabilitate

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Speaker 7: this like problematic piece of art, you know. And it

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Speaker 7: was like this crazy moment of having like like also

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Speaker 7: have had lost jobs because of my identity and now

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Speaker 7: in this place where it's like my identity is like

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Speaker 7: this bargaining chip. So anyway, how does this connect to

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Speaker 7: the online art conversation? Like I've always kind of had

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Speaker 7: to also play in like online spaces, Like I started

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Speaker 7: a public access station with my friends a few years

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Speaker 7: ago called Highland Park TV. A few years ago. I

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Speaker 7: was like ten years ago now, but that's still going

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Speaker 7: on today. And it was basically just this space for

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Speaker 7: us where we could like just record whatever. You know.

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Speaker 7: We'd meet up one week and come with like some

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Speaker 7: pretty simple sketches and shoot it on our public access

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Speaker 7: set and throw it up online. And you know, like

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Speaker 7: twelve people would watch it and that was it and

385
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Speaker 7: that but that was cool, like you know, you'd build

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Speaker 7: like little followings and communities that way, and I had

387
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Speaker 7: always just wanted to break out of that, you know,

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Speaker 7: because I think my sensibilities are pretty me and edgy

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Speaker 7: and weird. But like I'm really kind of a basic bitch,

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Speaker 7: like when it got to the stuff I like, like,

391
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Speaker 7: I really like my taste is very college dorm room.

392
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Speaker 7: I have a back to the future tattoo. Like I'm

393
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Speaker 7: very influenced by like genre film, and you know, like

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Speaker 7: I love David Lynch, I love experimental film and stuff too.

395
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Speaker 7: But like I've always like really felt like I.

396
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Speaker 8: Could do it.

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Speaker 7: I could be like just like a genre filmmaker. But

398
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Speaker 7: when we had the controversy at TIFF, I had a

399
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Speaker 7: lot of pressure on me to just kind of put

400
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Speaker 7: the movie out there, and I could never articulate to

401
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Speaker 7: people why it was important to me to not do

402
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Speaker 7: that and to hold out. It wasn't just like financial,

403
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Speaker 7: it really was. I mean, I mean, maybe it's ego thing,

404
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Speaker 7: but it's also just like I've been doing this long

405
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Speaker 7: enough to know like the movie was gonna always find

406
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Speaker 7: its audience, but there needed to kind of be a

407
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Speaker 7: plan in place so that like I could actually put

408
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Speaker 7: it towards having a career that the career that I've

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Speaker 7: wanted my whole life. You know, Like, I think it's

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Speaker 7: ridiculous that we live in a culture now where every artist,

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Speaker 7: even the ones like me who have had a trade

412
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Speaker 7: in this industry, Like in an industry like that, we

413
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Speaker 7: have to really carve our own path in online spaces

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Speaker 7: or on Twitter or YouTube or whatever. It just keeps

415
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Speaker 7: us all in cycles of poverty. It like, like I

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Speaker 7: fucking hate posting to Twitter. I do it still just

417
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Speaker 7: because it's the easiest way to get the word out,

418
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Speaker 7: But every single time I send a tweet, I'm like,

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Speaker 7: this sucks. Like I'm supporting one of the worst people

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Speaker 7: alive right now just by still using this site, somebody

421
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Speaker 7: who hates me and people like me so much that

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Speaker 7: he literally won't talk to his own child. Yeah. Like,

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Speaker 7: I really just wanted to kick the door down for

424
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Speaker 7: myself and hopefully for some people that come after me.

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Speaker 7: And you know, I really don't want to be the

426
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Speaker 7: type of filmmaker and the type of queer filmmaker who

427
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 7: like holds the ladder up behind them, like it's not

428
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Speaker 7: even that I have integrity, it's just that like this

429
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Speaker 7: movie is that to me, this movie is such like

430
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 7: it's a gospel on how we need to be making

431
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Speaker 7: art more ethically and more for ourselves and from a

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Speaker 7: place of care. And yeah, that's just I want to

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Speaker 7: hopefully change my little corner of the industry as much

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Speaker 7: as I can toward that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it definitely feels like we're getting more and

436
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: more people are embracing this idea of independent queer cinema,

437
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: and more people are are deciding instead of putting whatever

438
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 2: short film they want on YouTube, try to do a

439
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 2: festival circuit.

440
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 6: And it's it.

441
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: That was one of the things that I think I

442
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: really respected after what happened at TIFF. What I really

443
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: respected at your insistence to like, no, like we're going

444
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: to find a distributor, Like we're we're not just gonna

445
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: throw it up online and call it a day. It's

446
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: not just gonna be like a fan film. It's like,

447
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: this is an actual, like expressive piece that we're gonna

448
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: It might mean that you won't see it for another

449
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: two years, but it shows like a level of like

450
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: actual artistic commitment that I found gave gave the project

451
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,239
Speaker 2: a real sense of like wait, oh, thank you. The

452
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: notion of this comfortable YouTube bubble we've created is perhaps

453
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 2: why I find the public Access TV side of la

454
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeerman's Late Stage Live so compelling. A lot of queer

455
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: people around my age grew up with the transgender video

456
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 2: essay as the primary form of our artistic video output,

457
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of good video essays out there,

458
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: but at a certain point it started to feel like

459
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: the main way a young, radical queer person could engage

460
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,879
Speaker 2: with the art form. It's gotten to feel so insular

461
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: and a bit restrictive, like we're enforcing our own bubble.

462
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: On top of this self limiting aspect, I'm not even

463
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: sure how much growth the format even has Anymore. Recently,

464
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: I've begun to see more queer artists specifically trying to

465
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: make things outside the strict video essay framework. Even some

466
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 2: of the most popular trans video essay creators have been

467
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: trying to move into documentary and narrative film making. I

468
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: asked Ella about moving beyond the video essay bubble because

469
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,679
Speaker 2: although Late Stage Live does it air on YouTube as

470
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: well as Brooklyn Public Access, the format is not just

471
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: your average transgender video essay.

472
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: We don't have any pink lighting at all. Yeah, it's

473
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 3: definitely something I've been thinking about a lot, both like

474
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: in my own personal career and for the show. A

475
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 3: lot of my bylines in the last few years are

476
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: all YouTube based with late stage and some more news,

477
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: and it's frustrating that even as YouTube has seen so

478
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: much growth, and like celebrities come from YouTube all the

479
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 3: time and some of the biggest names in the world.

480
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 5: Are Internet stars.

481
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: Now, there's still like the sense of illegitimacy to be

482
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: doing a project on YouTube, and like when I try

483
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 3: and get published in like more legitimate journalism magazines every

484
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 3: so often, I'm always looking at my resume and being like,

485
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: I wish I had like a byline in a magazine

486
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: instead of three years of writing for a YouTube show

487
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: that I love so much and think is doing better

488
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: works than most of these magazines, but like that I

489
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: know won't get treated the same. So there's definitely an

490
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 3: aspect to that that I think. Yeah, like it's partly

491
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 3: YouTube is so accessible anyone can post on YouTube that

492
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 3: I understand why queer people have sort of relegated themselves

493
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 3: to this bubble. Trans people wrote like why we've ended

494
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: up with like you know, the trans video essay scene,

495
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: thank you Mother Natalie. But it makes it hard to

496
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 3: sort of break into this like final frontier of legitimacy,

497
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 3: I think, and I think by like, yeah, like not

498
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 3: fully committing ourselves to being a YouTube show from the

499
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 3: get go, we do sort of leave doors open to

500
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 3: be considered like a more legitimate television production, which is

501
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 3: exciting for like growth opportunities. I think the live studio

502
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: audience also really pushes us out of that zone. We

503
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: get a lot of accusations from people who are mean

504
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 3: on the Internet of using a laugh track, and I

505
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 3: just want to say, and I will say it till

506
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: the day I die, It would be so much easier

507
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 3: if we were.

508
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: I could totally tell when there's gay people laughing the

509
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: background versus a laugh track. It's a very clear difference. Absolutely.

510
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: It would be so easy if I was just plugging

511
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 3: that in in posts.

512
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 6: But no.

513
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 3: We bring in thirty thirty five Gaze every month just

514
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 3: to laugh at my jokes, and sometimes they don't. And

515
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: you can see that too when they don't laugh at

516
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 3: my jokes. But I think that is something I was

517
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 3: really excited to do. That is different from a lot

518
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 3: of the other video essay sphere because it also brings

519
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: in aspects of live performance that I love as a

520
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: stand up and as a theater artist. And also like, yeah,

521
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 3: just pulls it into like a slightly different genre of

522
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 3: thing that we're making, and I think certainly in terms

523
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 3: of like growth and audience building and like the potential

524
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: of being picked up by some larger organization. It definitely

525
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 3: puts us in like a different It makes us look

526
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 3: slightly different than like a YouTube show, even if we

527
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 3: can all like sort of quietly acknowledge, like, well, what

528
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: all of our growth is happening on YouTube and Instagram?

529
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 3: But like, as you said, like Real Late Night is

530
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 3: huge on YouTube now too, and there's all these other

531
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 3: extra correlating factors of like monetization on YouTube sort of

532
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: died a few years ago after the ad apocalypse or whatever,

533
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: and you have to go through crowdfunding sources like Patreon

534
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: or sponsorships or x Otherwise, like there's not like you can't.

535
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: Nebula or whatever new streaming service for YouTube pops up.

536
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, you can't just rely on ad sense anymore,

537
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: and that's frustrating in its own degree. But I think

538
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: even beyond that, Yeah, like not relegating ourselves to being

539
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: a YouTube show, both thematically and like concretely in terms

540
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 3: of content and form is like really exciting. And I

541
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: think like, even as we grow and gain a budget

542
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: and are able to buy nicer cameras, we want to

543
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 3: like keep the aesthetics and vibe of like edgy radical

544
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: public access because it's like a part of the voice

545
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: of the show along with sort of the practicalities.

546
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, having background ketamine jokes, I think really is right

547
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: sets you apart the quote.

548
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 3: Unquote VHS cleaner that sits on the desk every episode.

549
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: I don't own a VHS.

550
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: We will return to it could happen here after these

551
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: messag we now return to It could happen here. To me,

552
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: the most exciting thing about the idea of a new

553
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 2: wave of independent trans cinema is that we'll get to

554
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: see a whole bunch of trans films that otherwise would

555
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: never get made by the big studios. After trans filmmaker

556
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: Jane Shanbron's successful festival run of her small scale future

557
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: debut titled We're All Going to the World's Fair back

558
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, Her next film, called I Saw

559
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: the TV Glow, got picked up by Emma Stone's production

560
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: company and a twenty four The film is now coming

561
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: out later this month. In the case of the People's Joker,

562
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: it dares to take Warner Brothers and Disney at their

563
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: word that their privately owned intellectual property is in fact

564
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: our culture's version of mythology, our very own Greek gods.

565
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: And so if these characters really are the cultural icon

566
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: that the monopolized companies who own them claim them to be,

567
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: what happens when we actually do treat them like mythology

568
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: and use these characters to artistically mythologize our own lives

569
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 2: By skillfully sidestepping copyright law via effective legal parody, we

570
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: get to have a Batman film through the lens of

571
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: transgender chaos magic, which I'm afraid would simply never happen

572
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: under Warner Brothers Discovery, as they can't even stop deleting

573
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: their own finished films to get tax write offs. A

574
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: few weeks ago, I showed my it could happen here

575
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: co host Mia Wong the People's Joker, and afterwards we

576
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: talked about what makes it feel so special and it's

577
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: placed within the pantheon of queer cinema.

578
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 8: One of my dear friends, Vicky Asturweil, is writing a

579
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 8: book called The Extended Universe about sort of copyright law

580
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 8: and what's done to film and specifically focusing on on

581
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 8: Disney and the thing that's different about The People's Joker. Right,

582
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 8: if you want to know why the People's Joker is

583
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 8: you know why specifically you couldn't make this. It's partially

584
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 8: because it's trans and it's partially because it's actually a movie. Yes,

585
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 8: because and then this is this is this is this

586
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 8: is Vicky's argument, you know, and this is this is

587
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 8: the hidden truth about the film industry is that movies

588
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 8: are not designed to sell movies.

589
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: No, they're designed to send copyright.

590
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 5: No.

591
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 8: No, it's it's worse than that. Like, a superhero movie

592
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 8: does not make money on the movie, right, The movie

593
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 8: theater is not making money on the movie. The movie

594
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 8: theater is making money on food the company itself. That's

595
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 8: not where the money comes from. The money comes from

596
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 8: toy sales, yeah, and sales of stuff afterwards. Right, So

597
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 8: what you're actually seeing when you're seeing a superhero movie

598
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 8: is just an ad And this is Yeah, and this

599
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 8: is part of what the people's joker is that makes

600
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 8: it different, right, And you know, and it's because, like specifically,

601
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 8: because it is trans and because of the way that

602
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 8: is trans this makes it impossible for its being made

603
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 8: by corporation, and because trans people fought to make it,

604
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,239
Speaker 8: it gets to be an actual movie and not a

605
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 8: fucking toy sales thing.

606
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're not going to be making a toy

607
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 2: of mustache pedophile batman.

608
00:32:58,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

609
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 8: Right, And this is incredibly important for the genre of

610
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 8: film because you know, I mean, there is a world

611
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 8: that is not too far off where we are the

612
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 8: last people making actual fucking films and not advertisements.

613
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

614
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 8: To use this sort of like only semi ironically, using

615
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 8: this sort of lofty like Marxist language is like, yeah,

616
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 8: like we kind of also have been given the historical

617
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 8: task of saving film from its complete annihilation by these

618
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 8: fucking capitalist copyright gouals. It's a pleasure to see. It's

619
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 8: a joy to see. I think I was reading an

620
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 8: interesting article recently that talked about how trans media's orientation

621
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 8: has been very referential. It's been very much based on

622
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 8: experiences that trans people have as kids, engaging with media,

623
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 8: whether that's with something like Buffy the Vampires Layer, whether

624
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 8: that's with DC comics, and it's because transness is so

625
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 8: much about recontextualizing your whole life and identity. A lot

626
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 8: of trans media has also been about this form of recontextualization,

627
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 8: both with I think The People's Joker is a great

628
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 8: example also, uh uh, the upcoming film I Saw The

629
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 8: TV Glow, which is very much based on like Buffy

630
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 8: and other and other kind of like Monster of the

631
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 8: Week title TV shows. It's combining all of that kind

632
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 8: of stuff with a lot of lynching influences, both both

633
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 8: in these cases, both in The People's Joker and in

634
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 8: I Saw The TV Glow to create this like fever

635
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 8: dream of self identity in this referential format, and that's

636
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 8: been an interesting trend to watch in trans cinema, and

637
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 8: I think that's that's something that's something to look I

638
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 8: think that's something to look for when you're engaging with

639
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 8: future trans cinema projects, seeing if those kind of things

640
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 8: pop up and if and if they don't, why is

641
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 8: that what else is actually happening instead? I think those

642
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 8: are gonna be some interesting interesting ways to uh engage

643
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 8: with our own diy art in the next decade here,

644
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 8: because as much as like everything we talk about is

645
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 8: so like depressing, like on this show, like about how

646
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 8: everything dealing with like trends stuff is about how everyone's

647
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 8: trying to like kill us and restrict our medical care,

648
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 8: that does not actually stop us from becoming people who

649
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 8: actually engage with culture in any real sense. I think

650
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 8: despite everything that's targeted against trans people, it does not

651
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 8: stop us from actually having a cultural output. And the

652
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,919
Speaker 8: thing a lot of conservatives are afraid of is our

653
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 8: cultural output. The fact that trans people keep being actually

654
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 8: really compelling artists and really really compelling people in general

655
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 8: makes conservatives service. I don't think it's impossible for conservatives

656
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 8: to make art.

657
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: I think there is conservative art that actually can be

658
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: seen as like okay art, But they certainly are afraid

659
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: at how good trans people are at making music and

660
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 2: now making movies. When I was talking with me, she

661
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: brought up a good point that all paraphrase here. Part

662
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: of why we're seeing this new wave of independent transcinema

663
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,439
Speaker 2: is the result of a combination of two things. One

664
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: is that trans and queer artists have been and continue

665
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 2: to be chewed up and spat out by the traditional

666
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 2: media machine, and two, the traditional media machine itself is

667
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: slowly rotting from the inside, which can be a tricky

668
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: situation to navigate for a lot of queer artists. But simultaneously,

669
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: it also means that we're in this position, we're having

670
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,479
Speaker 2: been spat out, we have full rain to go make

671
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 2: our own, massive, grotesque, degenerate queer art on our own,

672
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: because there simply is no artistic alternative. Trans people need

673
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: to be submitting to film festivals regardless of whether or

674
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: not CIS viewers and critics will understand the work. Filmmaking

675
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: is one of those art forms that you can't really

676
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: do all by yourself, but that doesn't need to be

677
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: a limitation. That can be an asset. Gay people are

678
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: good at a lot of different things, and filmmaking integrates

679
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: so many different artistic areas and skills, and as we've seen,

680
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: a movie made by a community of queers can create

681
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: such a unique result. When talking with Vera Drew, she

682
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: mentioned that having a whole team of artists help her

683
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: complete the movie is also in part what ensured that

684
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: she would find a way for the film to be

685
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 2: distributed the right way so that it's seen up on

686
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: the big screen and not just published online for free.

687
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 7: You know. That was another thing that really kind of

688
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 7: kept me from doing anything irrational with the film, like

689
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 7: posting it on Google Drive with contribution to like a

690
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 7: donation link or whatever. It was like like I have

691
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 7: all these artists that just worked on this movie with

692
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 7: me for two and a half years, and like, no,

693
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 7: we're gonna fucking do this, Like I said I would

694
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 7: do this, and I'm gonna do this cause like I

695
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 7: can't just like feed this back into the incubator and

696
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 7: the fucking feedback loop of trans Twitter and like cool

697
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 7: underground circles that I totally love to be a part of,

698
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 7: but we're all trying to, you know, get more visibility

699
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 7: outside of those things. So yeah, I always really just

700
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 7: wanted to honor that, honor the team and make everybody

701
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 7: feel valued, and you know, I paid as many people

702
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 7: as I could, and you know, was very str forward

703
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 7: about what I could afford, and a lot of people

704
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 7: worked in ways that they just felt compensated and that

705
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 7: was very appreciated. You know, I think in general, like

706
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 7: everybody on this was very underpaid, but like it was

707
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 7: such a labor of love and such like a a

708
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 7: personal thing for for all of us that everybody just

709
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 7: like showed up and really rallied around each other and

710
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 7: really just kept saying yes and to everything, and it's

711
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 7: so cool. I don't I don't know how I'll ever

712
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 7: really be able to replicate. I don't think I should either,

713
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 7: just because it's it was it was quite a Gargantiouan task,

714
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 7: but you know, it was. It was literally the best

715
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 7: time of my life was was making this movie. Like

716
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 7: I think it really it taught me just how to

717
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 7: be a human being and how to love and how

718
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 7: to like finally feel connected to my to my queer community,

719
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 7: because I think like the People's Jokers really more than anything,

720
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 7: it's really about nuance and like relationships and family and politics,

721
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 7: and it talks about nuance by really leaning into these

722
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 7: like extremes, which I think just is also inherently queer,

723
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 7: and I don't know, I mean, that's to me, is

724
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 7: like another thing. It's just like I hope and there's

725
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 7: a lot of trance filmmakers that are like starting to

726
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 7: pop up in the genre space, but like I hope

727
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 7: we see more of it, just because like we all

728
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 7: grew up on the same movies that Sis people did,

729
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 7: so like, why can't we make similar art, you know,

730
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 7: and tell our stories in the process, and also do

731
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 7: it in a way that's like not hiding in the shadows.

732
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 2: The People's Joker is slowly ending. It's us theatrical run,

733
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 2: but you can still look for tickets and show times

734
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 2: at The People's Joker dot com and you can find

735
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 2: Vera Drew online at Vera Drew twenty two. Late Stage

736
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: Live just released their sixth episode and I'm really excited

737
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 2: to see how the show will grow and evolve over time.

738
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: And we've actually recently hit an inflection point with the

739
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 3: show where like the sort of organic, haphazard growth is

740
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: no longer sustainable for us. We've been having a lot

741
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 3: of really exciting and scary conversations behind the scenes about

742
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 3: like formalizing our production process and kicking our shit up

743
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: a notch so that we have the potential to make

744
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: this bigger and better and more polished. But it is

745
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: at its core still like a production born out of

746
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 3: community and like mutual respect. I'm Ella Yeerman. You can

747
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 3: find me on Instagram at La dot Yeerman, on x

748
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: dot com at Ella Yeerman. I think I'm on Blue Sky. Also,

749
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: though I don't do anything there. You can find Late

750
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: Stage Live as Late Sailers Live on all platforms. That's Instagram,

751
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: x YouTube, TikTok probably also Blue Sky, but those are

752
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 3: the big ones. And then if you're interested in finding

753
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 3: my stand up show, we're at T four T Comedy

754
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 3: on Instagram and x oh. And then most specifically, if

755
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: you're interested in helping fun blade stage and make us

756
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: bigger and better and shinier, you can go to patreon

757
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 3: dot com slash Late Stage Live, where we post. Yeah,

758
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 3: we have a behind the scenes photos and videos, and

759
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 3: we make a semi frequent podcast where my head writer

760
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 3: and I talk about the news and shoot the ship

761
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 3: and talk about the process and a lot more detail

762
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 3: episode by episode. And we're so grateful for our current

763
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 3: patrons and for opportunities like this, and we're excited to

764
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 3: see where the show.

765
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: Goes that doesn't for us, and it could happen here.

766
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my Transformers and g I Joe

767
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 2: ad Break references, and if not, you can send any

768
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: complaints to the President of Columbia University. Solidarity to everyone

769
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: across the country who's been out the past few weeks,

770
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: see you on the other side.

771
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 8: Welcome to take it up. And here a podcast that

772
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 8: is I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm gonna

773
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 8: speak for the rest of my hosts who aren't here

774
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 8: so they can't stop me and say that this is

775
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 8: a podcast normally opposed to brunch. I'm your host, Mia Wong,

776
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 8: and today we are talking about some that we kind

777
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 8: of haven't been covered, we haven't covered as much as

778
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 8: I think we should have, which is unionization in small businesses.

779
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 8: We've talked a lot about unization and sort of larger things.

780
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 8: We've talked about sort of mid mid sized chains. But

781
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 8: today we're talking about the unionization of a place called

782
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 8: Friday Egg I'm in Love in Portland's which it's it's

783
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 8: if you sort of imagine the platonic ideal of what

784
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 8: do you think a place called Friday Egg I'm in

785
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 8: Love is going to be? Like it is in fact

786
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 8: that And with me to talk about this is Soul

787
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 8: and Janey from the Friday Egg Workers Union. Yeah, both

788
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 8: of you, welcome to the show.

789
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 9: Thank you so much.

790
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having us.

791
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this partially, you know,

792
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 8: I mean as as we've sort of discussed a little bit,

793
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 8: because I want to get into a bit later the

794
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 8: specific dynamics of sort of small business union stuff. But

795
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 8: first things first, I wanted to sort of talk about what, actually,

796
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 8: you know, how did you all decide to unionize, because

797
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 8: I think this is a bit different story than the

798
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 8: kind of thing we usually get on this show.

799
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 9: Absolutely well, I've been at this particular restaurant since twenty

800
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 9: nineteen and it's been something that's come up every now

801
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 9: and then. I think we're just a very queer workplace.

802
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 9: We're a very leftist workplace, and we tend to have

803
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 9: a lot of common ideals. And I feel like what

804
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 9: makes our unionization effort unique or maybe not unique, but

805
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 9: just different than a lot of like we need to

806
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 9: start a union right now kind of efforts is there

807
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 9: wasn't a thing that caused it. We were all, like

808
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 9: me and five other people were just sitting around a

809
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 9: table and decided, Hey, we should just start a union,

810
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 9: and so we kind of looked into what that looks

811
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 9: like and the snowball started rolling downhill.

812
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, and this is something I think is really interesting

813
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 8: because you know, I mean one of the things you

814
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 8: get really commonly in sort of like anti new propaganda.

815
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 8: You see this, like I so a lot of my

816
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 8: family were engineers, right, and engineers do this all the

817
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 8: time where they're like, oh, we don't need a union.

818
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 8: We're like happy, we're well paid, everything's great. And then

819
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 8: you know, you look at you, you look at what

820
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 8: happens to them, and it's like, oh, well now you

821
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 8: have boeing Right, It's like, well, you you will, you will,

822
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 8: you will never organize, you no longer have any power,

823
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 8: and your planes are like falling from the sky. So yeah,

824
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 8: this this is a I'm gonna I'm taking this, taking

825
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 8: my soapbox moment to be like you two out there,

826
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 8: even if your job is good, at some point it's

827
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 8: going to not be and you should unionize first before

828
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 8: they I don't know, like be google and decide that

829
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 8: I don't be evil actually constrains them from making money

830
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 8: and decide to be evil, So get get out ahead

831
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 8: of them before.

832
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 9: Couldn't agree more absolutely, this has felt very, very proactive.

833
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 10: I haven't been there nearly nearly as long as some

834
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 10: of my comrades, but the general like consensus is that

835
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 10: like things are pretty good. So instead of letting things

836
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 10: go bad, let's let's make you know, major steps to

837
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 10: protect what we have, especially as like you kind of

838
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 10: notice how this small business is slowly, slowly starting to

839
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 10: operate like not a small business mm hm.

840
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 9: And we had a one of our food carts was

841
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 9: upgraded to a brick and mortar at the beginning of

842
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 9: this year, and pretty much in that in that moment

843
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 9: that that started operating as a real restaurant, it things

844
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 9: really clearly I think started setting in that like that

845
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 9: this is a bigger operation than it used to be,

846
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,800
Speaker 9: and they very like the owner very much still has

847
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 9: the intention of making it as good of a place

848
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 9: to work as he can, which is to be appreciated.

849
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 9: But it's also understandable that as things start to grow,

850
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 9: it's a lot better if it's a collaborative process in

851
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 9: terms of making it the best place to work that

852
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 9: it can be. And I think getting a seat at

853
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 9: the table is something that we have to make for ourselves,

854
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 9: but it doesn't necessarily have to be a threat or

855
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 9: a retaliation.

856
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 8: This is something I think is kind of important with unionizing,

857
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 8: especially places that are kind of you know, like or

858
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,879
Speaker 8: you know, we're even where the sort of the boss

859
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 8: is legitimately trying to like do the right thing, which

860
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 8: like it's kind of true of like my work, right,

861
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 8: like you know, like the people above my bosses are

862
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 8: kind of a fiasco, but like my immediate like bosses

863
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 8: are like you know, it's Robert and Sophie, right, Like

864
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 8: they're pretty chill. But you know, like one of the

865
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 8: dynamics that sets in is like you know, it's not

866
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 8: what the actual conditions are, isn't necessarily always going to

867
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 8: be under their control, even if you know, like even

868
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 8: if they want to do the right thing, and the

869
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 8: demands of things like scale and you know, the demands

870
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 8: of sort of market competition have this sort of disciplining

871
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 8: effect on what, you know, like what what your working

872
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 8: conditions can be if you're going to sort of compete

873
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 8: with like I don't know, you're your like doughnut shop

874
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 8: that like torches is union workers.

875
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 3: Right.

876
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 8: You know for example, Yeah, yeah, pure purely abstract.

877
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 10: Purely abstract. Yeah, absolutely, you know, seeing a shop of

878
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 10: you know, twelve become you know, two shops, a food

879
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 10: cart and a commissary kitchen of thirty five. But definitely,

880
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 10: you know, it's just pushing the business in a direction

881
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 10: very naturally. It feels very much like a part of

882
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 10: how systems work, even if our even if your owner

883
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 10: has really good intentions, just the nature of how capitalism

884
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:17,720
Speaker 10: works is starts to change things as Yeah at scale

885
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 10: for sure.

886
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, And that that gets into something else that I'm

887
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 8: sort of interested in how the sort of unionizing process went,

888
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 8: because this is a very I mean, I guess going

889
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 8: from twelve to thirty five is a big increase in

890
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 8: the number of people, but that's still a very small shop.

891
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 8: So can you talk a bit about what it's been

892
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 8: like kind of organizing in you know, I mean organizing

893
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 8: a number of people that you can very easily fit

894
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 8: into a room.

895
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 9: It's been interesting and it's been exciting in that way

896
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 9: because we are able to cram into a room and

897
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 9: the energy is very palpable and so like inspiring momentum

898
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 9: to get shit done in each other has been really

899
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 9: really wonderful in that way. But I think also it's

900
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 9: it makes it easy for us to be very tactical

901
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 9: with how we are handling this process, where we're making

902
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 9: sure that at all four locations there's a majority, if

903
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 9: not unanimous approval and support and membership in the union.

904
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 9: And the more that the more that I'm meeting union

905
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 9: organizers and union reps and people from IWW, the more

906
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 9: that I'm realizing we're in a situation where we can

907
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 9: establish some really lovely precedent for similar workplaces who want

908
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 9: to start a union, who are about the same size

909
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 9: as us, or even like neighbors in our like on

910
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 9: the on the streets that are locations are at where

911
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 9: we can do things like there's not enough precedent in

912
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 9: the IWW for a service industry in general, but particularly

913
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 9: it's it's very common to be in the negotiating process

914
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 9: and one of the things that will be offered to

915
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 9: the employer in exchange for whatever you're negotiating on is

916
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 9: like a no strike clause, like okay, we'll just we'll

917
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:30,720
Speaker 9: give this to you of like we're just not gonna

918
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 9: be able just to strike for the duration of our contract,

919
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 9: and so in exchange we can get some other stuff

920
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 9: that we're asking for. But because we have such a

921
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 9: strong majority, and in all four locations we have a

922
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 9: strong majority, I think we're currently planning on keeping the

923
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 9: right to strike. Hell yeah, and you know we're not

924
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 9: planning on it. I hope that we don't ever have

925
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 9: to do that, but just having that as precedent I

926
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 9: think will help our community and other similar unions.

927
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, I think. You know, this is something that

928
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 8: going back to if you look at the sort of

929
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 8: heyday of American unionism, if you look at like the

930
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 8: fifties sixty seventies, like those contracts didn't have no strike

931
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 8: clauses in them. Some of them did, so sometimes it

932
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 8: was like a federal thing. But the thing about no

933
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 8: strike clauses is that it makes you know, we've talked

934
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 8: about this a bit before on the show, but one

935
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 8: of the sort of issues when you have a union

936
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 8: is like, okay, see, even if you get a contract right,

937
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 8: and that usually takes that takes a long time, takes

938
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 8: a lot of fighting, the company is immediately going to

939
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 8: start trying to violate the contract. And so you know,

940
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 8: your contract is only as strong as your ability to

941
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 8: enforce it. And you know, one of a really really

942
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 8: good way to enforce it is by being able to

943
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 8: go on strike. But normally, like yeah, people aren't organized

944
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 8: enough to actually like fight their employers on it, and

945
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 8: so it just ends up being a kind of standard

946
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 8: part of contracts, And yeah, it's really exciting that y'all

947
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 8: are committing to fight for that from the beginning, because

948
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 8: it's it's it's hard, it's it's not it's not an

949
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 8: easy thing to do.

950
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 9: Now, the more I learn about how unions operate, the

951
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 9: more I'm realizing that, you know, it doesn't necessarily stop

952
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 9: people from getting fired, it doesn't necessarily stop people from having,

953
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 9: you know, injustice happened upon them. But it just gives

954
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 9: you the ability to fight in the first place. And

955
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 9: I think a lot of employers who are facing a

956
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 9: workplace who are wanting to unionize like recognizing that it's

957
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 9: it's it's not like a threat. It's not like, Okay,

958
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 9: we're uh, we're going to have this union and everyone's

959
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 9: going to go on strike the next day and our

960
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 9: business is going to tank.

961
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 7: But it's they're just.

962
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 9: Asking for the right to to have a better negotiating seat.

963
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, this is something I actually think it's really interesting

964
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 8: about this campaign where there's this really kind of I

965
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 8: don't know, I think if you're able to build a

966
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 8: precedent of being able to negotiate a contract that doesn't

967
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 8: have no strike clause, that allows you to go on

968
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 8: strike whatever you know, whenever you want is something that

969
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 8: is like characteristic of liking of you know, of a

970
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 8: of an incredibly militant shop. But I think if you can,

971
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 8: if you can actually get the precedent of you know,

972
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 8: having companies treat this as normal, because it's something that

973
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 8: should be normal, right like this, this is how a

974
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 8: lot of the US used to work, right it used

975
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 8: to be. If you were on like an auto line

976
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 8: assembly line, there'd be there be a guy in a

977
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 8: back with a whistle. And if and if you know,

978
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 8: if a contract violation happened, or like you know, if

979
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 8: if the company is asking you to do something that

980
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 8: you aren't you know that you're not like contractually obligated

981
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 8: to do, the person would you know, the union person

982
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 8: would blow the whistle, immediate strike, the entire assembly line

983
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 8: goes down, and you know it turns out you actually

984
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 8: can run a completely functional like economy like this. But

985
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 8: the kind of the mentality of the people who own

986
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 8: who own businesses right now is that you should never

987
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 8: at any point, like you know, you should never at

988
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 8: any point let your workers do anything at all. You

989
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 8: should immediately fight them at the moment they try to

990
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 8: unionize and I think you know, having a president of

991
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 8: like you know, of of being able to get this

992
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 8: kind of stuff without immediately having to launch like you know,

993
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 8: like I immediately kick off a series of stricture with

994
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 8: your employer. Is is a good one? Is a good

995
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 8: one to set.

996
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:38,280
Speaker 10: That we have so many people that are super interested

997
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 10: in like being a part of this organizing effort because

998
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 10: because we all like being there, like is I think

999
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 10: is huge in comparison to like lots of stories that

1000
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 10: we hear about and yeah, really wanting to like bring

1001
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 10: that to the restaurant industry because yeah, that's unions are

1002
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 10: you know, criminally under recognized within service work. Yeah, and

1003
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 10: arguably an industry that needs it the most.

1004
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 5: Yep, yep.

1005
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 8: Well, and that's the other exciting thing about this shop

1006
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 8: is that you know, you're talking about sort of like

1007
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 8: they're not being enough service organizing with it with the IWW.

1008
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 8: And that's true of like basically all unions because and

1009
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 8: especially shops at your scale, because you know, a lot

1010
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 8: of these unions are using like a very kind of

1011
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 8: crude cross cost benefit analysis and their their assessment is like, well,

1012
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 8: why should we bother to organize like this shop that

1013
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 8: has thirty five people at it, because you know, this

1014
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 8: is going to like where we're like the amount of

1015
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 8: dues money we're going to get out of it is

1016
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 8: like not you know, is not is not worth the effort.

1017
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 8: But on the other hand, you know, like do you

1018
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 8: know how many workers there are, like how many of

1019
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 8: these like how many of these tiny shops across the

1020
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 8: there are across the entire country that if you know,

1021
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 8: and if everyone just refuses to organize them, then you're

1022
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 8: leaving like tens of millions of workers just sort of

1023
00:55:58,239 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 8: like screwed.

1024
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 10: Yeah. I can't speak for all IWW, but I know,

1025
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 10: like talking with like the Portland branch, it definitely mirrors

1026
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 10: our shop and at like how queer and leftist it is.

1027
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 10: And is that surprising that they're working with the IWW

1028
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 10: or with the Coalition of Independent Unions which is a

1029
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 10: Pacific Northwest like union for unions kind of thing. It's

1030
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 10: not surprising that like our values are aligned and it's

1031
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 10: like making making for something like really fun and like

1032
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 10: you know, setting a new kind of industry standard for

1033
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 10: service industry.

1034
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, unfortunately, speaking of industry standards, I have to go

1035
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 8: to an ad break. It's in my contract somewhere, probably,

1036
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 8: though I don't think my employers have read my contract

1037
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 8: in a long time. But you know, such are the

1038
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 8: dictates of a podcast that you're that your senior bosses

1039
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 8: don't listen to. Yeah, we will return in however long

1040
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 8: the ads are and we are back, so.

1041
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 7: Okay.

1042
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 11: Another thing that I kind of wanted to talk about

1043
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 11: is what has it sort of been like in terms

1044
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 11: of like, you know, so like, how has you know,

1045
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 11: in a shop that's like this small, how has the

1046
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,920
Speaker 11: sort of like organizing conversations gone right, Like is everyone

1047
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 11: just sort of close enough that you know, you were

1048
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 11: able to kind of do this organically, or was there

1049
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 11: still sort of a like mapping process for all of

1050
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 11: the shops or.

1051
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 9: Well, luckily it has gone pretty smoothly. But we were

1052
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 9: advised early on to create an interest map where we

1053
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,280
Speaker 9: go through the list of every coworker that we have

1054
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 9: and talk about like how well do we know them?

1055
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 9: Do we think they would be down? Like, well, this

1056
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 9: person would obviously be down. This person, I guess we'll

1057
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 9: just have to talk to them and see and apart

1058
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:07,680
Speaker 9: from a few cases, it has been very successful and

1059
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 9: easy so far. It's really lucky that almost all of

1060
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 9: our coworkers are comrades.

1061
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1062
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 10: I think like our first like conversation was I think

1063
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,800
Speaker 10: about ten people at like a bar close to like

1064
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 10: the main Hawthorn shop, and like once we had like

1065
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 10: that get together. Yeah, it really became about like, you know,

1066
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,880
Speaker 10: how do we get our satellite locations, you know, on

1067
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 10: this on the same page, you know, with like a

1068
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 10: super majority at one shop, you know, then just moving

1069
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 10: on to you know our little you know, the Pioneer

1070
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 10: food cart and then our Commissary kitchen and then the

1071
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 10: Mississippi location. That was just you know, hiring a whole

1072
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 10: new staff for and you know, getting them in, you know,

1073
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 10: collecting them into the fold. And yeah, iww was very

1074
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 10: helpful and like how to like kind of create those

1075
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 10: processes to like ensure that you know, we were approaching

1076
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 10: people in the right way. And yeah, have it getting

1077
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 10: a proper headcount?

1078
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 8: Yeah that can be a disaster. Yeah, oh god, Like

1079
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 8: my union, we're still trying to hash out whether some

1080
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 8: people are in the union or not, and like people

1081
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 8: will leave the company. Then this happens all the time, right,

1082
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 8: Like one of the things you discovered really quickly when

1083
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 8: you need a union organizing is that your like management

1084
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 8: doesn't actually know how anything works, or like even who's

1085
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 8: working for them and what they do. They have absolutely

1086
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 8: no idea, and so you have to do their job

1087
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 8: and figure out what everyone does.

1088
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 10: What management would be so mad at you for saying blasphemy.

1089
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 8: You know, look if they if they did, if they

1090
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 8: didn't want me to talk negatively about they should pay

1091
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 8: me more. They simply do not pay any of us enough.

1092
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 8: That's not the universal from time to time. Yeah, yeah,

1093
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 8: but I think that you know what's interesting about this

1094
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 8: shop too, is it really seems like y'all just sort

1095
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:10,520
Speaker 8: of speed ran doing a good campaign, Like you're doing

1096
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 8: all of the things that you gif of good organizers.

1097
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 8: But then you know, every once in a while you

1098
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 8: just get a shop where it's just kind of everything

1099
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 8: just clicks and goes.

1100
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 9: It has been five months start to finish, which I

1101
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 9: feel like is significantly faster than most. Yeah, most of

1102
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 9: that is just down to that there aren't very many

1103
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 9: of us, and so talking to everyone hasn't been that

1104
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 9: crazy of an endeavor.

1105
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, but.

1106
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 9: I think probably in the first meeting or two, we

1107
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 9: just crunch the numbers and realized, Okay, we're not going

1108
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 9: to have any trouble having a majority, but we have to.

1109
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 9: And so the focus of our work went into making

1110
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 9: sure we do it right, and learning to inoculate people

1111
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 9: and talk to people we haven't talked to yet and

1112
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 9: people for whom it would be a little more sensitive

1113
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 9: or more like in depth conversation, and educating ourselves on

1114
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 9: what starting a union actually looks like. And i WW

1115
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 9: has been very helpful providing these little trainings that I've

1116
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 9: been able to go to. It's funny is that they're

1117
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 9: on Sunday afternoons, and so I'm pretty sure I'm the

1118
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 9: only person at our brunch restaurant who doesn't work Sunday afternoons,

1119
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 9: so I've been going to those.

1120
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 8: But yeah, this is something that like, I don't know,

1121
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 8: I feel like it should be a thing that so

1122
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 8: I was at this will I guess we'll have come

1123
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 8: out after the Labor Dights episode that I'm doing. But

1124
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 8: something that I feel like I don't hear much discussion

1125
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 8: of in union organizing that I feel like there should

1126
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 8: be is like fighting management on scheduling and like trying

1127
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 8: to fight for you know, people actually a having consistent

1128
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 8: schedules and b not just having like I don't know,

1129
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 8: Like I know a lot of people who find out

1130
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 8: their schedule on Facebook, like four hours before they have

1131
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,560
Speaker 8: to go in, right, Like, that's insane. That is that

1132
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 8: is not a way for industrial process to function.

1133
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 7: Right.

1134
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 10: No, thankfully that has not been one of our issues

1135
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 10: at least at least not systemically at Ridick.

1136
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, but but it does make it hard to do

1137
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 8: intro organizational trainings because it's like everyone has weird scheduling

1138
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 8: stuff going on, so it's it's hard to like, I

1139
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 8: don't know, I feel like it's it's an underrated barrier

1140
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 8: to getting a lot of people from different unions to

1141
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 8: work together. Is that no one is ever off at

1142
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 8: the same time.

1143
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 9: That's real.

1144
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely, I know it's been it weird. I think

1145
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 10: they're a huge aspect of our success I think is

1146
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 10: that we have been able to like I think the

1147
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 10: unique part about the breakfast Place is that it's not

1148
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 10: open from you know, am to PM. It's not open

1149
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 10: from ten am to eleven pm, like like a restaurant

1150
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 10: could potentially be open. We are open for breakfast. We're

1151
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:24,479
Speaker 10: done at too on the weekdays and adding in a

1152
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 10: standing union meeting at four pm once a week was

1153
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 10: very easy to add to everybody's schedule, I think, I

1154
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 10: think and the nature of the breakfast place led to

1155
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 10: that working very very easily.

1156
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, and our coworkers that maybe need a little more

1157
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 9: persuasion that like, hey, no, don't worry this is this

1158
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 9: is really happening, and you can be a part of it,

1159
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 9: even if you know that their pro union. Kind of

1160
01:03:51,240 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 9: getting the ball rolling with people sometimes takes a meeting

1161
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 9: or two and being able to have the peer pressure

1162
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 9: of like, hey, we're going into a meeting right now.

1163
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 9: I know you're not doing anything after this, and I'll

1164
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 9: give you a ride helps a lot because then they

1165
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 9: go to their meeting and they're like, wow, that was awesome.

1166
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 9: I never knew I could take control of my life

1167
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 9: in any way.

1168
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, that rules. There really is nothing like just being

1169
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 8: in a place with a bunch of people who all

1170
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 8: are trying to like actually do the thing, like you know,

1171
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 8: I mean, I think this is why you know, like

1172
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 8: as we're recording this, like a bunch of campus occupations

1173
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 8: are going right, and I mean, I don't know, God,

1174
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 8: hopefully by the time this comes out, they won't have

1175
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 8: all died horribly because this is getting recorded on what

1176
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 8: day is it that April twenty eighth, so this is

1177
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 8: being released into like hell world. But yeah, you know,

1178
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 8: I mean, I think one of one of the aspects

1179
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 8: of of of those camps is that like just there

1180
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,479
Speaker 8: with a bunch of people who you get to talk

1181
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 8: to and organize with. And it turns out that actually

1182
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 8: being there face to face with a bunch of people

1183
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,200
Speaker 8: is just great. And that's that's the thing. That's the thing.

1184
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 8: You can also like that you knows, as much as

1185
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 8: like union work can just can be work, right, it

1186
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:20,439
Speaker 8: can be you sitting in front of a spreadsheet and going,

1187
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 8: oh my god, what this person responds like it's also

1188
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 8: I don't know, it's it's also like it could be

1189
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 8: really great and I don't know, you should you, dear

1190
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 8: listeners should experience it because it rules.

1191
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 9: I couldn't recommend it more. It is the best feeling

1192
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 9: in the world and soul and I are addicted to

1193
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 9: it to feel like you're actually doing anything real. Hell, yeah,

1194
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 9: it's incredible.

1195
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 10: That's yeah. Something we heard from IW or IWW friends

1196
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 10: is that like this, like, especially with how early in

1197
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 10: the process we are like how exciting that is to

1198
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 10: like skitter everybody but everybody in a room and I

1199
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 10: feel like we're all working towards the same thing.

1200
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that.

1201
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 10: You do get addicted to it. And that's often where

1202
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 10: the union organizers came from, was like starting their own

1203
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 10: and they're like, oh, I need to keep doing this.

1204
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1205
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 8: I think I think that's a pretty good doe to

1206
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 8: end on, unless you do have anything else that you

1207
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:29,480
Speaker 8: want to make sure we get you first.

1208
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, with like how early in the process we are

1209
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 10: after this comes out, like we will have like dropped

1210
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 10: our authorization cards and like actually started like the formal process.

1211
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 10: Like we're still pretty early on, but we already have

1212
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,479
Speaker 10: a fundraiser setup with like a local beer bar. We're

1213
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 10: at Workers Sat. Hell Yeah, and that's super exciting. And

1214
01:06:54,840 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 10: we're building our socials and probably have a go fundme

1215
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 10: for strike fundraiser. So yeah, early days, but very exciting,

1216
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 10: very purposeful days.

1217
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 9: It's gonna be a big week.

1218
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:13,280
Speaker 8: Hell yeah. Yeah. Where where can people go to find

1219
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 8: the union and go to support you all?

1220
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 9: Well, our socials are not live.

1221
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 8: Yet, but all right, so yeah, this is this, this

1222
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 8: is being recorded before things go live. We will we

1223
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:25,680
Speaker 8: will have the links down there.

1224
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, we I think we're settling on the tag the

1225
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 10: user name fried egg w U, which we are saying

1226
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 10: foo woo about because you know, you gotta you gotta,

1227
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 10: you gotta make you gotta.

1228
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 5: Make this fun. But yes, we will be. Yeah, we

1229
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 5: will be sharing that with you.

1230
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 9: I'm glad you knew because I wasn't sure if if

1231
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 9: we had a handle agreed upon yet. Yeah, well find

1232
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 9: us on the socials fried egg.

1233
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 10: W U with it being early days and like us

1234
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 10: not even being public yet. I've built those accounts, but

1235
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 10: they're not like not ready to go. So there's that,

1236
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 10: like we're in this dead zone period where we've built

1237
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 10: the infrastructure for a proper you know, the proper election,

1238
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 10: even though we are very hopeful that our owner will

1239
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 10: recognize us with you know, the majority that we have.

1240
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 10: But yeah, we're our zero day is May Day, a

1241
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 10: couple of days from now, and we are very excited

1242
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 10: for that very much.

1243
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 8: So hell yeah, hopefully it goes well. It will be

1244
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 8: in the past by time this comes out, But good

1245
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 8: luck to both of you, and thank you both so

1246
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 8: much for coming on now.

1247
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 9: The pleasure belongs to us. We're both fans than for

1248
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 9: having us on.

1249
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, and yeah does this has been naked happen here?

1250
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 8: You too can go experience the joys of organizing your workplace.

1251
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:54,679
Speaker 8: So go go do that or go to a student occupation,

1252
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 8: do both.

1253
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 5: I don't know. There's a lot going on that.

1254
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 8: There are many places for you to experience the shory

1255
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 8: of organizing with other people, so go go do that.

1256
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:09,200
Speaker 8: And yeah, you can find us in the usual places.

1257
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1258
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 8: Sophie will probably be on it in about one second.

1259
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 8: This ad pivot not whatever this is got completely off

1260
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 8: the rails.

1261
01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:23,680
Speaker 10: I have not had it off sleep, no sleep for organizing.

1262
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 5: Welcome, take it happen here. I'm Andrew Sage of the

1263
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:40,799
Speaker 5: YouTube channel andrasm and I'm here with James.

1264
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's me and andre again.

1265
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 5: Yes, once again. So I recently dropped a video on states,

1266
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 5: or more pointedly, a video that's sorts of define the

1267
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,240
Speaker 5: state and its functions, synthesize its critique by anarchists, and

1268
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:57,839
Speaker 5: basically understand the ways that states feel both society and nature.

1269
01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 5: So we can let goose states, inevitabilit and think outside

1270
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 5: of it to realize the freedom and power of all

1271
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:09,719
Speaker 5: the people most people aren't anarchists, unfortunately, but I've noticed

1272
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 5: that generally speaking, some folks are more receptive to anarchist

1273
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:17,919
Speaker 5: ideas and others just seem to shut down without engaging

1274
01:10:17,960 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 5: with it earnestly or meaningfully. You get a mix of

1275
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 5: those reactions in my comments, so overwhelmingly toward the receptive side,

1276
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 5: because I mean, that's the kind of intellectual curiosity I

1277
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 5: tried to attract my space, But the more hostile reactions

1278
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 5: had me thinking about a book that I read many

1279
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 5: years ago and their video on years after that was

1280
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 5: called The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. So once take another

1281
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 5: look at the ideas in that book, because even though

1282
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 5: Ultimid doesn't land in any truly radical conclusions, his scholarship,

1283
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 5: in my opinion, gets us closer to understanding the psychology

1284
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 5: of both authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders. Also rest in Peace.

1285
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 5: I found that he died when I was preparing this,

1286
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:06,600
Speaker 5: just this year in February, but that aside. We'll be

1287
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 5: talking about the former first, and that is what's up

1288
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 5: with authoritarian followers. Let's get into it first. We need

1289
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 5: some context. So in the wake of World War two,

1290
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 5: social scientists sought an explanation for the evils perpetuated by

1291
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:24,000
Speaker 5: the Nazi government during the war. Theodore W. A'dno Els,

1292
01:11:24,080 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 5: Frankel Brunswick, Daniel Levinson, and Nevitt Sandford published The Authoritarian

1293
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 5: Personality in nineteen fifty, proposing a personality type for the

1294
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:38,480
Speaker 5: fascist follower ranked on an F scale. They particularly concentrated

1295
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:42,360
Speaker 5: on prejudice within the psychoanalytic and psychosocial frameworks of Freudian

1296
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:46,840
Speaker 5: and Fromian theories. Their work was highly critiqued, but it

1297
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:49,640
Speaker 5: was also highly influential in laying the groundwork for our

1298
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 5: understanding of authoritarian personalities. In the aftermath of Adorno and

1299
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 5: Company's book, social scientists will continue to tweak, develop and

1300
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 5: expand our understanding of authoritarian psychology. Most notably, the concept

1301
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 5: will be refined by Bob Altemeyer, a Canadian American psychology professor,

1302
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 5: proposed the right wing authoritarian personality in nineteen eighty one.

1303
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 5: After numerous studies, Altimyer presented his findings in his free

1304
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 5: book The Authoritarians in two thousand and six. I had

1305
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 5: to clarify, though right wing here is not being used

1306
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 5: in the context of the political spectrum, which is a

1307
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 5: concept thats to n scrutiny. In this context, Ultimaya uses

1308
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:28,679
Speaker 5: the word right in the sense of the old English

1309
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 5: writ an adjective for lawful and proper. Aultimia defines authoritarianism

1310
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 5: as quote, something authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders cook up

1311
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,360
Speaker 5: between themselves. It happens when the followers submit too much

1312
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 5: to the leaders, trust them too much, and get them

1313
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 5: too much leeway to do whatever they want, which often

1314
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 5: is something undemocratic, tyrannical, and brutal unquote. I find this

1315
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 5: definition of authoritarianism lacking, but a monarchist so of course

1316
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,600
Speaker 5: I would to me, if authority is defined as the

1317
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 5: record is right above others in a social relationship to

1318
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 5: give commands, make decisions, and enforce obedience, then I would

1319
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:10,960
Speaker 5: define authoritarianism as a matter of degree to which you

1320
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 5: uphold the principle of authority. I think many people are

1321
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 5: at least authoritarian light because that's the status go unfortunately.

1322
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 5: But more specifically, I think the people we call authoritarians

1323
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 5: are those which are especially invested in the enforcement or

1324
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 5: advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of

1325
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 5: freedom and plurality. So right, being authoritarian followers or RWAs

1326
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 5: are those which overwhelmingly support the established authorities in their society,

1327
01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:43,599
Speaker 5: like government officials, arms of the state, and traditional religious leaders.

1328
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:47,200
Speaker 5: In North America and elsewhere, r was tend to be

1329
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 5: or other. I should say high r WA is because

1330
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:53,240
Speaker 5: the RWA thing is a scale, but the high art

1331
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 5: ws tend to be political conservatives. However, that doesn't mean

1332
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 5: the authority and personality is exclusive to conservatives, no, as

1333
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 5: exclusive to North America, but the scale is definitely tailored

1334
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:08,200
Speaker 5: to a North American and English speaking audience, lendin to

1335
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 5: its documented issues that translate into other regions, But with effort,

1336
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 5: I could definitely see it being adapted to other cultural

1337
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,839
Speaker 5: contexts as well. And as also my argues, the concept

1338
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:21,759
Speaker 5: of the right wing authoritarian could equally apply to society

1339
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 5: with the established authorities claimed to be represent in the left.

1340
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 5: So what defines the right wing authority and personality? Psychologically speaking?

1341
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 5: They feature three primary traits or attitudes. For one, a

1342
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 5: high degree of submission to authorities were perceived to be

1343
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,800
Speaker 5: established and legitimate in the society in which one lives. Two,

1344
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 5: a general aggressiveness directed against various persons that is perceived

1345
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 5: to be sanctioned by established authorities, and three a high

1346
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 5: degree of adherence to the social conventions that are perceived

1347
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:02,599
Speaker 5: to be endorsed by society and its establish authorities. These

1348
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 5: traits are measured with the Right Wing Authoritarianism Scale or

1349
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 5: RWA scale for short. It's readily accessible online, so I'm

1350
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 5: not going to go through the entire scale point by point,

1351
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 5: but basically includes a mixed series of statements that folks

1352
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 5: can indicate their level of agreement or disagreement with. Statements

1353
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:21,840
Speaker 5: like our country will be great if we on other

1354
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 5: ways of our forefathers, do the authorities tell us to

1355
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:26,640
Speaker 5: do and get rid of the rotten apples who are

1356
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:30,759
Speaker 5: ruining everything, or what our country really needs is a strong,

1357
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 5: de tillman leader who will crush evil and take us

1358
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 5: back to our true path. And just to mix things up.

1359
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 5: A woman's place should be wherever she wants to be.

1360
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 5: The days when women were submissive to their husbands and

1361
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 5: social conventions belong strictly in the past. As you could imagine,

1362
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 5: the degree to which you agree or disagree with these

1363
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 5: statements would place you somewhere along the scale. The lowest

1364
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 5: total possible score and ultimized version of the test would

1365
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 5: be twenty and the highest one hundred and eighty, but

1366
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,600
Speaker 5: most people low hit either extreme. A sample of one

1367
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 5: thousand Americans in two thousand and five found that the

1368
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 5: average score was ninety. Technically speaking, high RWAs are just

1369
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 5: people who score higher than the average population, so it's

1370
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:16,679
Speaker 5: really a relative to Also another disclaimer, in the context

1371
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:21,640
Speaker 5: of psychological studies, personality tests can definitely make mistakes about individuals,

1372
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 5: so it's not a diagnostic tool for individuals to determine

1373
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:27,839
Speaker 5: if they make a good storm trooper. However, the scale

1374
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 5: can reliably identify levels of authoritarianism in groups. Also, keep

1375
01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,439
Speaker 5: in mind that stuff like the interpretation of wording and

1376
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 5: fore knowledge of what the test is trying to measure

1377
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:41,599
Speaker 5: can definitely influence results. Still, this tool has been used

1378
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,200
Speaker 5: for most of Altimayer's research and authoritarianism, so it's good

1379
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:47,640
Speaker 5: to be familiar with it. So now you may be

1380
01:16:47,640 --> 01:16:51,520
Speaker 5: wondering how well does the RWA skills measurement of submission, aggression,

1381
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 5: and conventionalism map onto people's reality. So for submission, higher

1382
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:00,840
Speaker 5: RWAs tend to believe that people should submit authority in

1383
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 5: almost all circumstances, so they put a lot of trust

1384
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:07,520
Speaker 5: in the law and the authorities. Maybe not all authorities

1385
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 5: and every single circumstance, but they definitely bought into the

1386
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 5: concept itself. They're the types who trusted Nixon during and

1387
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 5: even after the Watergate crisis, likely the ones in Germany

1388
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 5: in nineteen forty five who refused to believe that Hitler

1389
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 5: was responsible for the Holocaust, the type to rapidly support

1390
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:28,479
Speaker 5: anti terrorist initiatives, no matter how invasive. Throughout his research,

1391
01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 5: Altimhere found that high ars are far more likely to

1392
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 5: tolerate police burglaries, drug rades without warrants, police crackdowns on

1393
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:41,320
Speaker 5: peaceful protests, subversion via Ajan's provocateurs, and so on, as

1394
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 5: far as they're concerned, Father knows best. Their favorite authorities

1395
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 5: are above the law, But like I said, they don't

1396
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:53,760
Speaker 5: always submit. Their blind support can be trumped by other concerns,

1397
01:17:54,080 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 5: but most times they're not big fans of holding officials

1398
01:17:56,520 --> 01:18:00,240
Speaker 5: accountable for their actions. They really don't care if a

1399
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 5: cop kill someone in broad daylight or someone drives through

1400
01:18:03,320 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 5: a crowd of protesters on the street. In terms of aggression,

1401
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 5: higher w is aggress when they believe right and might

1402
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:16,560
Speaker 5: on their side. Right meaning their hostility is authority approved

1403
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:20,640
Speaker 5: might meaning they have a physical, tactical, or numerical advantage

1404
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 5: over their target. They don't fight far, and just like

1405
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:27,120
Speaker 5: they go easy on authorities who commit crimes, they go

1406
01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 5: easy on anyone who attacks people they're prejudiced against. But

1407
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 5: they definitely don't go easy on the people they hate.

1408
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:35,959
Speaker 5: They seek to sentence criminals to longer terms than average,

1409
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 5: and as some of the loudest supporters of capital punishment.

1410
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:43,160
Speaker 5: And if they hate one group, bet your bottom dollar

1411
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:46,240
Speaker 5: they probably hate other groups too. You could call them

1412
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:50,439
Speaker 5: equal opportunity bigots. Chances are if they hate immigrants or

1413
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 5: trans people, those are not going to be the only

1414
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:56,320
Speaker 5: targets of their ire. Their pressures has more to do

1415
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 5: with their own personality than their targets actual attributes. Still,

1416
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:04,839
Speaker 5: they don't always aggress when they think the proper authorities approve,

1417
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:08,080
Speaker 5: just that they don't always submit. They are always more

1418
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 5: factors that play in any given situation, including a fear

1419
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 5: of counter aggression or consequences that may hold their hostilities.

1420
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 5: Regarding conventionalism, higher ws believe that everyone should live by

1421
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:27,360
Speaker 5: the norms that their authorities have decreed. Whilst like culturalism, plurality, diversity.

1422
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 5: Those things clash with what they consider correct and what

1423
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 5: they consider wrong. They usually get their ideas from fundamentalists religions,

1424
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 5: so you'll find that higher WA's are strong advocates for

1425
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 5: the traditional family structure, with patriarchal husbands, submissive wives, and

1426
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 5: obedient children. They're also far more likely to support their

1427
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:50,760
Speaker 5: governments patriotic version of various historical narratives. Most interestingly, their

1428
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 5: conventionalism even influences their response to the high r W

1429
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 5: test itself. If they were totally average response for a

1430
01:19:57,920 --> 01:20:00,680
Speaker 5: statement on the test, they were far more likely to

1431
01:20:00,720 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 5: adjust their answers to the mean than most. When asked

1432
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:06,240
Speaker 5: what they would like their own RWA score to be,

1433
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 5: low rbs said they would like to be low rw's,

1434
01:20:10,320 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 5: middle or w is said they'd like to be lower w's,

1435
01:20:13,520 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 5: but higher ws said they want to be middles, not

1436
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:20,800
Speaker 5: lows or highs. Why because they tend to rank being

1437
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:25,760
Speaker 5: normal very highly in values tests. Also, just because they

1438
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:27,080
Speaker 5: want to be normal, let's mean they don't want to

1439
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 5: be richer or smarter than others. Not doesn't mean they're

1440
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 5: necessarily going to drop their prejudices. They may get tugged slightly,

1441
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 5: like with there's somewhat decrease in prejudice against gay people

1442
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 5: after the legalization of gay marriage. But their normal is

1443
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:45,040
Speaker 5: often a measure of what's normal in their in group.

1444
01:20:45,400 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 5: So if it's still normal in their in group to

1445
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 5: be violently homophobic, more than likely they will still be

1446
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 5: violently homophobic.

1447
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:56,560
Speaker 4: Their conformity is the value rather than specific bigotry or

1448
01:20:56,600 --> 01:21:01,080
Speaker 4: what have you. Yeah, talking of conformed Andrew, we have

1449
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:03,479
Speaker 4: to conform to the needs of sponsors of this show

1450
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 4: right now, and we're back.

1451
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,559
Speaker 5: Yes, so, Alse my husband lightly critiqued for rendering r

1452
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 5: W as the dominant psychological account of authoritarianism. Of course,

1453
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 5: it makes sense that has been the focus, considering the

1454
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,280
Speaker 5: study of authoritarian personality was born out of post World

1455
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 5: War two studies of fascists. Right wing authoritarians often fever

1456
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:33,839
Speaker 5: established absolutist forms of government and weaponize that presently dominate

1457
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 5: in hierarchy to facilitate said absolutism. But there are authoritarians

1458
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:43,520
Speaker 5: who also favor absolutist forms of government with slight differences,

1459
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 5: believe n that the presently dominated in hierarchy should be

1460
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 5: overthrown and replaced with their own. These have potentially been

1461
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 5: called left wing authoritarians, even though the right and right

1462
01:21:57,040 --> 01:22:00,479
Speaker 5: wing authoritarians didn't have anything to do with the political spectrum.

1463
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:04,799
Speaker 5: Let's keep pushing. In chapter nine of The Authoritarian Inspector,

1464
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 5: Altemeyer conceptualizes left wing authoritarianism or LWA as also composed

1465
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 5: of submission, aggression, and conventionalism, so essentially LWA is a

1466
01:22:17,360 --> 01:22:22,640
Speaker 5: subcategory of RWAs. He's also quick to point out not

1467
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 5: all leftists are LAS, but as he describes them, l

1468
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 5: WA's are revolutionaries who one submit to movement leaders who

1469
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 5: must be obeyed aka submission, two have enemies who must

1470
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 5: be ruined from capitalists to counter revolutionaries aka aggression, and

1471
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,679
Speaker 5: three have rules and party discipline that must be followed

1472
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:54,120
Speaker 5: aka conventionalism. In essence, authoritarianism is psychological. R WAS support

1473
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 5: the established authorities, LAS oppose them in favor of their own,

1474
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 5: but the underlying positional core is still authoritarianism. But the

1475
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 5: focus is on AR debays in general here concerning these

1476
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,160
Speaker 5: traits submission, aggression, and conventionalism, it's clear that people with

1477
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 5: right wing and thworitaring and personalities are rather dangerous. They

1478
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:18,759
Speaker 5: find it easier to bully harass, punish, name, torture, eliminate,

1479
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:22,599
Speaker 5: and exterminate their victims than most people do. They're more

1480
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 5: willing to join mobs and militias, more likely to blame

1481
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:29,200
Speaker 5: victims for their misfortune, and more likely to condemn common

1482
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 5: criminals to long brutal sentences in jail. They seem to

1483
01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 5: have a lot of hostility boiling away inside them that

1484
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:40,439
Speaker 5: their authorities can easily unleash. So we have to ask

1485
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 5: what causes this? Why are they like this? According to

1486
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:50,679
Speaker 5: Albert Bandura's social learning theory of aggression, aggression occurs after

1487
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 5: two conditions are met. Firstly, some feelings like anger or

1488
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 5: envy lead us to a hostility. Secondly, inhibitions or content

1489
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,160
Speaker 5: actual restraints against release in that hostility would have to

1490
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:07,120
Speaker 5: be overcome. Only then can the aggression erupt and flow.

1491
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:12,080
Speaker 5: So let's discuss the instigator and releaser of authoritarian aggression.

1492
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 5: High days are highly motivated by fear, like they have

1493
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 5: an extra dose of fair response in their genes more

1494
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:25,000
Speaker 5: than most people. They probably learn to be fearful from

1495
01:24:25,040 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 5: their parents about all kinds of things. You know, radicals, atheists, kidnappers,

1496
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 5: queer people, et cetera, et cetera. They grew up in

1497
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:35,280
Speaker 5: a scarier world than most, which is probably why they

1498
01:24:35,320 --> 01:24:39,360
Speaker 5: tend to score so highly on the Dangerous World Scale.

1499
01:24:39,520 --> 01:24:43,719
Speaker 5: That scale, like previous scales, provides statements and measures levels

1500
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 5: of agreement or disagreement with stuff like quote, If our

1501
01:24:46,840 --> 01:24:49,599
Speaker 5: society keeps degenerating the way it has been lately, it's

1502
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 5: liable to collapse like a rotten dog, and everything will

1503
01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:56,000
Speaker 5: be chaos and quote any day now, chaos and anarchy

1504
01:24:56,040 --> 01:24:58,760
Speaker 5: could erupt around us. All the signs are pointed to it,

1505
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 5: and cou everything to them is a sign of the times,

1506
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:07,640
Speaker 5: a perversion corrupt in society in peaceful times and in

1507
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:12,599
Speaker 5: generally dangerous ones. Higher ways feel threatened. But what releases

1508
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:16,040
Speaker 5: that aggressive impulse to act? Also, I have found, more

1509
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 5: than anything else self righteousness. Of course, almost everyone thinks

1510
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:24,759
Speaker 5: they're a bit more moral than average, but higher ways

1511
01:25:25,280 --> 01:25:28,000
Speaker 5: they tend to think they're the holy ones, the chosen,

1512
01:25:28,280 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 5: the righteous. That empowers them to isolate, segregate, humiliate, persecute, harass, beat,

1513
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:39,559
Speaker 5: and kill. That self righteousness, combined with their high scores

1514
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 5: on the Dangerous World scale, is what empowers their prejudice,

1515
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 5: their heavy handedness, their means spiritedness and their eagerness to

1516
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:53,839
Speaker 5: crusade against the other. So how do highs become higher WA's?

1517
01:25:54,800 --> 01:25:59,200
Speaker 5: Are they born that way? Possibly? Do their parents make

1518
01:25:59,240 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 5: them that way somewhat but not completely? See no one

1519
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 5: as a complete carbon copy of their parents. So what

1520
01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:17,840
Speaker 5: determines a person's position on the art of experience? Our

1521
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 5: life experiences teach us lessons that our parents and payers

1522
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 5: may not, or experiences with authorities shape or perception of authority.

1523
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 5: Especially when someone hits adolescens, they tend to chafe against authority,

1524
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 5: even if they submitted to authority as children, those hormonal urges,

1525
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:37,920
Speaker 5: desires for austronomy, and new experiences could shake up their

1526
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 5: early lessons completely. Experiences could either end up reinforcing the

1527
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:48,560
Speaker 5: authorities teachings or contradicting them entirely. Naturally, it's easier for

1528
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 5: kids from authoritarian homes to remain authoritarian and vice versa.

1529
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 5: But ultimately experiences do most of the shape middle or

1530
01:26:57,080 --> 01:27:00,160
Speaker 5: ways have some mix of experiences and upbringing that keep

1531
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:04,200
Speaker 5: them in the middle. When it comes to higher was,

1532
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:09,200
Speaker 5: their experiences were probably very controlled. Authoritarian followers usually live

1533
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:13,519
Speaker 5: in a homogeneous bubble of patriotic, traditional people an echo

1534
01:27:13,600 --> 01:27:17,160
Speaker 5: chamber apart from the evils of the world, safely kept

1535
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 5: on a short leash for most of their lives. But

1536
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:23,639
Speaker 5: I just hope yet. Automid's research has shown that higher

1537
01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 5: ws can change if they have some important life experiences.

1538
01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:30,679
Speaker 5: That's why university can be such a game change of people.

1539
01:27:31,479 --> 01:27:36,439
Speaker 5: It's just meeting new people, leaving that small, enclosed world

1540
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:39,479
Speaker 5: and developing relationships with people of different walks of life,

1541
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:44,400
Speaker 5: and that makes a big difference. There are a couple

1542
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 5: of traits that make higher ws such good followers for

1543
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:54,599
Speaker 5: would be dictators. In short, those traits are illogical thinking,

1544
01:27:55,120 --> 01:28:03,240
Speaker 5: highly compartmentalized minds, double standards, hypocrisy, a lack of self awareness, ethnocentrism, dogmatism.

1545
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:09,400
Speaker 5: In long well, consider syllogism. All fish live in the sea.

1546
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:16,400
Speaker 5: Sharks live in the sea, therefore sharks are fish. Logically speaking,

1547
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 5: the conclusion doesn't follow. Even if sharks are fish, and

1548
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:25,280
Speaker 5: they are the premises don't support the conclusion. But if

1549
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,439
Speaker 5: higher WA's were asked if the reasoning was correct, they

1550
01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 5: were more likely than most to say that it was.

1551
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 5: When asked why they'd answer because sharks are fish. In essence,

1552
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 5: because they agreed with the conclusion, they assumed the reasoning

1553
01:28:41,640 --> 01:28:45,120
Speaker 5: was right. That simple test shows that if authority and

1554
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:50,599
Speaker 5: followers like the conclusion, the logic involved is fairly irrelevant.

1555
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:53,880
Speaker 5: Reasoning is what should justify the conclusion, but as far

1556
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 5: as they're concerned, the conclusion valuates the reasoning. Of course,

1557
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:02,120
Speaker 5: let me not overstate a lot of people have trouble

1558
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:05,519
Speaker 5: with so logistic reasoning. Higher w has just happen to

1559
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 5: be slightly more likely to make such mistakes, but higher

1560
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:11,639
Speaker 5: de wus generally have more trouble than most people do

1561
01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,679
Speaker 5: realize in a conclusion as faults, they have a harder

1562
01:29:14,680 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 5: time determine whether empirical evidence proves or doesn't prove something.

1563
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 5: They more easily fill gaps in science with supernatural forces,

1564
01:29:23,120 --> 01:29:25,920
Speaker 5: and they have trouble being critical of anything unless they've

1565
01:29:25,920 --> 01:29:30,600
Speaker 5: already gotten their talking points from their authorities. Regarding the

1566
01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 5: highly compartmentalized minds, I mean, we all have some inconsistencies

1567
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:38,559
Speaker 5: not thinking, but their minds as be like oil and water.

1568
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 5: One second they say in free speech, next they say

1569
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,679
Speaker 5: in ban critical race theory. One moment they're talking about

1570
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,800
Speaker 5: individual freedom, and next their basically throat in the boots

1571
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 5: of the state. They don't merge files in their brain

1572
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:53,360
Speaker 5: to really see what fits. They sense to just pick

1573
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:57,719
Speaker 5: up whatever their demogogues are saying. And if your mind

1574
01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 5: is such a mess of contradiction, so you're going to

1575
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:02,600
Speaker 5: end up a lot of double standards easily justify by

1576
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,160
Speaker 5: whatever idea you hold it's most convenient in the moment.

1577
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,559
Speaker 5: Principles are really irrelevant. Keep in mind the excuses they

1578
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:12,639
Speaker 5: make for those in power and how hard they are

1579
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:16,040
Speaker 5: in victims. Classic example is the difference between how they

1580
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:18,600
Speaker 5: treat a prisoner who beats up another prisoner versus a

1581
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,759
Speaker 5: police officer who beats up a prisoner. Low d was

1582
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 5: usually don't have such stark double standards when it comes

1583
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:28,919
Speaker 5: to hypocrisy. I'm going to keep you using this example

1584
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 5: because you know it's still somewhat topical critical race theory.

1585
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:35,400
Speaker 5: As much as authoritarians accuse the left of being anti

1586
01:30:35,439 --> 01:30:38,760
Speaker 5: free speech, politically correct types, rda WA is a far

1587
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 5: more likely to report a desire to censor ideas they

1588
01:30:41,680 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 5: don't like. This is also because they tend to lack

1589
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 5: basic self awareness. If presented with a list of things,

1590
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,760
Speaker 5: right wing authoritarians are likely to do like be prejudiced, conformist,

1591
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:53,960
Speaker 5: et cetera, and then ask how true it is of

1592
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:57,120
Speaker 5: themselves compared to most other people. They really have no

1593
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:00,719
Speaker 5: idea how different they actually are, and that's actually because

1594
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 5: of the bubble they tend to exist in us visus

1595
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:07,639
Speaker 5: them is a very hard line in the sand for authoritarians.

1596
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 5: Humans as a whole do have a tendency sometimes to

1597
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:15,000
Speaker 5: fall into tribal patterns of thinking, but authoritarians see the

1598
01:31:15,040 --> 01:31:17,960
Speaker 5: world far more sharply in terms of their in groups

1599
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:21,080
Speaker 5: and our groups. And most we do tend to associate

1600
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:23,600
Speaker 5: with people who agree with us in many issues. But

1601
01:31:23,680 --> 01:31:26,519
Speaker 5: authoritarians really do stick to their bubble of validation and

1602
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:31,000
Speaker 5: ethnocentric reinforcement. That's why they don't realize how pressureous, or

1603
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 5: aggressive or submissive they are to compare to most people.

1604
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:38,600
Speaker 5: By avoiding challenges to their beliefs and holding faster their authorities,

1605
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 5: they remain stuck in a secular logic of I'm right

1606
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 5: because the people I agree with say I'm right. Finally,

1607
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:51,760
Speaker 5: in terms of dogmatism, higher ws holds to unchangeable, unjustified certainty,

1608
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:56,280
Speaker 5: righteousness beyond a shadow of a doubt. They're more likely

1609
01:31:56,320 --> 01:31:58,920
Speaker 5: than most people to agree with statements like the things

1610
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 5: I believe in are so completely true, I could never

1611
01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 5: doubt them, and there are no discoveries or facts that

1612
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:06,639
Speaker 5: could possibly make me change my mind about the things

1613
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 5: that matter most in life. I am absolutely certain the

1614
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:14,480
Speaker 5: ideas about the fundamental issues in life are correct. Meanwhile,

1615
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:17,720
Speaker 5: they're more likely than most people to disagree with statements

1616
01:32:17,840 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 5: like it's best to be open to all possibilities and

1617
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:25,120
Speaker 5: ready to re evaluate all your beliefs. And flexibility is

1618
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 5: a real virtue in thinking, since you may very well

1619
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:32,560
Speaker 5: be wrong when you receive or absorb, rather than contemplate,

1620
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 5: your beliefs, you have no basis upon which sho determine

1621
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 5: whether or not they're true. So you avoid challenges by

1622
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:41,680
Speaker 5: staying in the bubble as much as possible. When that

1623
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 5: can be avoided, threatton out whatever talking points you got

1624
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 5: from wherever, and if that dialogue tree fails, you can

1625
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 5: always fall back in your group's assurance that you are right.

1626
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:56,000
Speaker 5: I could challenge your beliefs, or you could insist your

1627
01:32:56,080 --> 01:32:59,280
Speaker 5: right and retreat. What option do you think high it

1628
01:32:59,320 --> 01:33:02,760
Speaker 5: will be a sentage use Yeah, the double down exactly.

1629
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:07,800
Speaker 5: Talkingtism is by far the best fall back defense, but

1630
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,759
Speaker 5: it's also the most blatant, that giveaway that the person

1631
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 5: doesn't know why they believe what they believe. Alas hired

1632
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 5: w is only one side of the authoritarian coin, then

1633
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,759
Speaker 5: nothing without their leaders. So next time we'll be talking

1634
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:30,679
Speaker 5: about those leaders, those social dominators. Until then, all power

1635
01:33:30,720 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 5: to all the people. This, yes, welcome to it could

1636
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:48,440
Speaker 5: happen here. I'm Andrew Sage of the YouTube channel Andrewism.

1637
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:50,360
Speaker 5: Once again, I'm joined by.

1638
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:52,800
Speaker 4: Jane and we go back in and I'm excited to

1639
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:55,720
Speaker 4: learn more about authoritarian leaders this time right.

1640
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:59,400
Speaker 5: Yes, last time we discussed the mind of the authoritarian

1641
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 5: follower thanks to the research of the late Bob Altemeier.

1642
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:07,479
Speaker 5: You should definitely listen to the previous episode. But in summary,

1643
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:11,240
Speaker 5: we looked at this concept of right wing authoritarianism, which

1644
01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:15,240
Speaker 5: refers to a personality type that features three primary traits

1645
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:18,640
Speaker 5: or attitudes. First is a high degree of submission to

1646
01:34:18,680 --> 01:34:21,800
Speaker 5: authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in

1647
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,720
Speaker 5: the societies in which one lives. The second is a

1648
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:28,320
Speaker 5: general aggressiveness directed against various persons. It is perceived to

1649
01:34:28,360 --> 01:34:32,040
Speaker 5: be sanctioned by established authorities and the third is a

1650
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:36,280
Speaker 5: high degree of adherence to the social conventions that are

1651
01:34:36,320 --> 01:34:39,360
Speaker 5: perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities.

1652
01:34:40,600 --> 01:34:44,000
Speaker 5: We also speculated the roots of authoritarian aggression and looked

1653
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:47,200
Speaker 5: at the mind of the authoritarian follower, which demonstrates straits

1654
01:34:47,240 --> 01:34:53,680
Speaker 5: such as illogical thinking, highly compartmentalized minds, double standards, hypocrisy,

1655
01:34:53,800 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 5: and lack of self awareness, ethnic centrism, and dogmatism. Today,

1656
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:00,880
Speaker 5: as promised, we're looking at the other side of the coin.

1657
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,840
Speaker 5: We're looking at the leaders, but also what we can

1658
01:35:03,880 --> 01:35:07,800
Speaker 5: do to address both followers and leaders. So let's begin.

1659
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:12,439
Speaker 5: In nineteen ninety four, social psychologists Fleescher Prattu and Jim

1660
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 5: Sedanias presented the social dominance orientation test as a measure

1661
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:23,360
Speaker 5: of belief in social inequality. Social dominators agreed with statements

1662
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 5: like code, this country would be better off if we

1663
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:30,000
Speaker 5: cared less about how equal all people are and code

1664
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:33,840
Speaker 5: some people are just more worthy than others. While disagreeing

1665
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:37,120
Speaker 5: with statements like code, if people were treated more equally,

1666
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:40,719
Speaker 5: we would have fewer problems in this country. Fellow social

1667
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:44,240
Speaker 5: psychologist Sam McFarland took their test and twenty one others,

1668
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 5: including the Art of Way scale to determine which would

1669
01:35:47,280 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 5: be the best predictor of prejudice. His research found that

1670
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:55,120
Speaker 5: only two of those tests, the social dominant orientation and

1671
01:35:55,160 --> 01:35:58,640
Speaker 5: the Art of Way, could do the job well. But

1672
01:35:58,720 --> 01:36:01,320
Speaker 5: the thing is, though, while both tests were able to

1673
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:06,720
Speaker 5: identify prejudiced people, they will identifying different types of prejudice

1674
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:12,280
Speaker 5: people with very little overlap. Social dominators and high art

1675
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:17,639
Speaker 5: double ways authoritarians of two flavors. They have some things

1676
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 5: in common though, besides prejudice. They tend to support the

1677
01:36:20,920 --> 01:36:24,840
Speaker 5: same political parties. They tend to have shared economic philosophies,

1678
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:29,639
Speaker 5: usually conservative on both counts, but they also have some

1679
01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:35,320
Speaker 5: huge differences, starting with a desire for power also why

1680
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 5: I conducted two surveys with students that included the question

1681
01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:41,599
Speaker 5: how much power as in the ability to make adults

1682
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:43,599
Speaker 5: do what you want? Do you want to have when

1683
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:47,240
Speaker 5: you're forty years old? In this sense, automayer is using

1684
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:49,960
Speaker 5: power in the sense of authority as I would define it.

1685
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:52,800
Speaker 5: They recognized right above others in a social relationship to

1686
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 5: give commands, make decisions, and enforce obedience. So the scale

1687
01:36:57,080 --> 01:36:59,840
Speaker 5: went from zero meaning they don't care for it, to

1688
01:37:00,439 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 5: me and their goal is to have a great deal

1689
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:06,960
Speaker 5: of authority. Social dominators consistently wanted to have much more

1690
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:13,360
Speaker 5: power than most people did authority and followers did not. Now, obviously,

1691
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:17,240
Speaker 5: people often want authority for different reasons, some more self

1692
01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 5: righteous than others. But social dominators take thrill in authority

1693
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:25,200
Speaker 5: in and of itself. Doesn't matter what the cause is,

1694
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,679
Speaker 5: as long as they can control others in the process.

1695
01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:31,800
Speaker 5: There's another scale out to my users, the power Mad scale.

1696
01:37:32,320 --> 01:37:35,799
Speaker 5: On it, social dominators agree with statements like a mistake

1697
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:38,160
Speaker 5: to interfere with the law of the jungle, some people

1698
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:41,679
Speaker 5: were meant to dominate others, and do you enjoy taking

1699
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:43,880
Speaker 5: charge of things and making people do things your way?

1700
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:47,799
Speaker 5: They also disagree with statements like life is not governed

1701
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,320
Speaker 5: by the survival of the fittest and we should let

1702
01:37:50,400 --> 01:37:55,080
Speaker 5: compassion and moral lawers be your guide. Social dominators are

1703
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:58,160
Speaker 5: some of the highest scores on this scale, and high

1704
01:37:58,240 --> 01:38:02,600
Speaker 5: scorers tend to be intimidated, ruthless, and vengeful, with no

1705
01:38:02,720 --> 01:38:07,400
Speaker 5: care for nobility or charity. They despise empathy and have

1706
01:38:07,439 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 5: a dog eat dog mentality toward the world. They love

1707
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:13,360
Speaker 5: the power to hurt in their drive to the top.

1708
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:18,560
Speaker 5: High ruays just don't have that drive. And while authoritarian

1709
01:38:18,640 --> 01:38:23,280
Speaker 5: followers might highly value group cohesiveness and loyalty, social dominators

1710
01:38:23,320 --> 01:38:26,880
Speaker 5: don't because, like I keep saying, they're in it for themselves,

1711
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:30,040
Speaker 5: for their power, and they will betray their own group

1712
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:34,600
Speaker 5: if push comes to shove. Another area where social dominators

1713
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:36,519
Speaker 5: and higher deg way is diverge is when it comes

1714
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:42,800
Speaker 5: to religiousness. Authoritarian followers are usually religious fundamentalists, while dominators

1715
01:38:42,880 --> 01:38:45,960
Speaker 5: don't tend to be that involved. Some of them do

1716
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:50,559
Speaker 5: go to church regularly, but that's for manipulative reasons because

1717
01:38:50,600 --> 01:38:55,599
Speaker 5: social dominators could lie. They lie a lot. All they

1718
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:58,080
Speaker 5: have to do is pretend to be religious and say

1719
01:38:58,080 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 5: the right words, and boom they get through. The higher

1720
01:39:00,960 --> 01:39:04,000
Speaker 5: was reminds me of a certain politician.

1721
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 4: I'm just going to say this is put in the

1722
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 4: mind of like Donald Trump tay getting a massive crowd

1723
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:10,680
Speaker 4: of people so he can walk to a church and

1724
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 4: then take photos outside and not go in.

1725
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:17,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, good times. There's another scale we could take a

1726
01:39:17,760 --> 01:39:22,120
Speaker 5: look at, and that's the exploitative, manipulative, immoral dishonesty, or

1727
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:29,520
Speaker 5: exploitative mad scale. Unlike higher w's social dominators, anonymous responses

1728
01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:33,160
Speaker 5: indicate that they agree with statements like there's really no

1729
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:35,760
Speaker 5: such thing as right and wrong. It all boils down

1730
01:39:35,760 --> 01:39:38,680
Speaker 5: to what you can get away with, and there's a

1731
01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:41,559
Speaker 5: sucker bone every minute, and smart people don how to

1732
01:39:41,560 --> 01:39:46,040
Speaker 5: take advantage of them. Social dominators disagree with statements like

1733
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,080
Speaker 5: it gains a person nothing if he uses deceit and

1734
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:52,920
Speaker 5: treachery to get power and riches, and all in all,

1735
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:56,480
Speaker 5: it's better to be humble and honest than important and dishonest.

1736
01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:01,480
Speaker 5: In essence, social dominators admit to strive and to manipulate,

1737
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:04,840
Speaker 5: to be in dishonest, to be an immoral and treacherous.

1738
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:09,360
Speaker 5: They see their followers as suckers, fools to be controlled.

1739
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:16,160
Speaker 5: What else makes them different? Well, I could go back

1740
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:21,280
Speaker 5: to the roots of hostility. Social dominators actually show greater

1741
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:25,600
Speaker 5: prejudice against minorities and women than hired was do, but

1742
01:40:25,680 --> 01:40:33,080
Speaker 5: their followers are much more hostile towards LGBTQ people. Why Well,

1743
01:40:33,080 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 5: it ties back to the religiousness point and the hired

1744
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:40,280
Speaker 5: wa respect for the law. Since attacks against minorities are

1745
01:40:40,360 --> 01:40:43,640
Speaker 5: less clearly supported by religious and civic authorities as they

1746
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 5: used to be. Authoritarian follower aggression towards these groups both

1747
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 5: overt or sneaky how to be curved a little bit. Meanwhile,

1748
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 5: social dominators are hostile because they already live in the

1749
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:59,479
Speaker 5: apocalyptic jungle that hired WA is fair, and they are

1750
01:40:59,520 --> 01:41:03,040
Speaker 5: the epect predator. They don't score highly in the dangerous

1751
01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 5: world scale because they're not scared. They're the ones ready

1752
01:41:06,240 --> 01:41:10,479
Speaker 5: to weaponize that fear. Dominance is their first priority for

1753
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 5: everyone they meet, they need a reason to not try

1754
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:15,560
Speaker 5: to control them. They don't care too much about the

1755
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:18,920
Speaker 5: law either. It's just about not getting caught. They're not

1756
01:41:18,960 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 5: as self righteous as higher w is because they're quite immoral,

1757
01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:26,320
Speaker 5: and higher ws aggress when they believe right and might

1758
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 5: on their side. Social dominators aggress because might makes right

1759
01:41:30,360 --> 01:41:33,960
Speaker 5: for them personally. Higher W is heat crimemount of fair

1760
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:37,840
Speaker 5: and self righteousness in the name of authority. Social dominators

1761
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:43,360
Speaker 5: hate crime ount or share desire to intimidate and control. Lastly,

1762
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:46,360
Speaker 5: we need to look at the differences in their thought process.

1763
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:50,639
Speaker 5: Social dominators, for the most part, don't have a web

1764
01:41:50,680 --> 01:41:55,800
Speaker 5: of contradictions, weak reason and skills, compartmentalized thinking, or gullibility

1765
01:41:55,960 --> 01:42:00,440
Speaker 5: that define higher w's mental life. They're not particularly dogmatic

1766
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:04,080
Speaker 5: or zealous about any particular cause or creed. They just

1767
01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:06,920
Speaker 5: want authority. They say whatever they need to say to

1768
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:10,439
Speaker 5: get ahead. Because they have no consistent values, they'll be

1769
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:13,400
Speaker 5: hypocrites like hard wa Is, but they're probably aware of

1770
01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:17,720
Speaker 5: and find their own hypocrisy. For example, they're cool with wealth,

1771
01:42:17,720 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 5: inheritance and corruption. They're opposed to welfare. They're unconcerned with

1772
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:26,440
Speaker 5: income inequality or photo disenfranchisement. They're apathetic to racial inequality

1773
01:42:26,439 --> 01:42:29,479
Speaker 5: and injustice. They believe that people should have to earn

1774
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 5: their place in society, and they don't care if most

1775
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:35,160
Speaker 5: of them can't. They still talk about how the only

1776
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:37,680
Speaker 5: way to have a level play and field is to

1777
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:40,519
Speaker 5: get rid of things like affirmative action. And part of

1778
01:42:40,560 --> 01:42:45,080
Speaker 5: what defines social dominators is their utter disregard for equality.

1779
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:49,880
Speaker 5: So we have to ask again what causes this? Why

1780
01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 5: are they like this? And well, social scientists just are

1781
01:42:55,160 --> 01:43:03,720
Speaker 5: show Yet if we look at the life shape and

1782
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:07,519
Speaker 5: experiences or social dominators, they would probably report the deceit

1783
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:09,880
Speaker 5: and cheating were good tactics because it led to what

1784
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:14,000
Speaker 5: they wanted. Taking advantage of suckers felt great. They enjoyed

1785
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 5: having power and having people afraid of them. Life boiled

1786
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:18,960
Speaker 5: down to what you could get away with, and of

1787
01:43:19,000 --> 01:43:22,120
Speaker 5: course the experiences led them to believe that life is

1788
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:26,599
Speaker 5: a jungle. Dominators were probably rewarded early in their lives

1789
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:31,360
Speaker 5: when they cheated, took advantage of people, weaponized fear, overpowered others,

1790
01:43:31,640 --> 01:43:34,400
Speaker 5: or got away with something wrong. Whether or not their

1791
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:37,000
Speaker 5: parents gave them that outlook on the world. Because of

1792
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:40,120
Speaker 5: the psychological law of effect, they simply learn into the

1793
01:43:40,160 --> 01:43:45,800
Speaker 5: Being amoral, unsympathetic, and exploitative worked well for them. So

1794
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:48,719
Speaker 5: what happens when higher was and social dominators worked together.

1795
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:54,040
Speaker 5: In this field of research, the lethal union refers to

1796
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:58,440
Speaker 5: the combination of happily subservient hired ws with social dominators

1797
01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:01,519
Speaker 5: who share their values in the drivers, eager to dominate

1798
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:05,439
Speaker 5: and control, a death spiral union that develops all the

1799
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 5: time in the real world. As Altamaya aptly described, quote true,

1800
01:44:10,960 --> 01:44:14,640
Speaker 5: sufficiently skilled social dominators served by dedicated followers can make

1801
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:17,479
Speaker 5: the trains run in time, but you have to worry

1802
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:20,479
Speaker 5: about what the trains may be haulin' when dominators call

1803
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:24,599
Speaker 5: the shots and the hirer was do the shooting end quote.

1804
01:44:26,360 --> 01:44:30,439
Speaker 5: While most social dominators get fairly low scores on RA

1805
01:44:30,560 --> 01:44:35,280
Speaker 5: tests and vice versa, a, very very small percentage of

1806
01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:39,000
Speaker 5: people in ultimiya samples scored highly on both r A

1807
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:45,120
Speaker 5: and social dominance tests. These other double highs. If prejudice

1808
01:44:45,200 --> 01:44:48,599
Speaker 5: was as sports in the Olympics, hird WA's we get bronze,

1809
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:53,000
Speaker 5: social dominators we get silver, and double Highs would definitely

1810
01:44:53,040 --> 01:44:56,920
Speaker 5: get gold. Now you might be wondering how do they

1811
01:44:56,920 --> 01:45:00,799
Speaker 5: manage to score so highly on both tests? Social dominators

1812
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 5: and highways have so many differences. How can there would

1813
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:07,640
Speaker 5: be a submissive dominator? So there are a couple of

1814
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,960
Speaker 5: reasons why want to be dictator with score highly on

1815
01:45:11,040 --> 01:45:15,559
Speaker 5: both tests. One is because some WA scale statements are

1816
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 5: open to interpretation. Take the statement code our country desperately

1817
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:21,800
Speaker 5: needs a mighty leader who will do what has to

1818
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,240
Speaker 5: be done to destroy the radical new ways and sinfulness

1819
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:28,280
Speaker 5: that are ruining us, and code follow ull be like

1820
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,479
Speaker 5: yes please, and a dominator will be like here I

1821
01:45:31,520 --> 01:45:35,839
Speaker 5: am behold, I'm your leader. Double Highs still score highly

1822
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:38,920
Speaker 5: on all the power scales, like other social dominators and

1823
01:45:39,040 --> 01:45:45,160
Speaker 5: unlike other higher ways. Secondly, double Highs are the religious

1824
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:48,839
Speaker 5: among the social dominators, so they respond to this religious

1825
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:52,000
Speaker 5: items on the r WA scale that other social dominators don't,

1826
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 5: thereby significantly raising their art wa IS score. I don't

1827
01:45:56,120 --> 01:45:58,240
Speaker 5: think I need to go into too much detail. I

1828
01:45:58,280 --> 01:46:01,840
Speaker 5: feel like I should be absolutely clear. The double highs suck.

1829
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 5: Whatever the su they probably are on the wrong side

1830
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:10,920
Speaker 5: of it, the worst of the worst, prejudiced, power hungry, exploitaive, mad,

1831
01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:17,160
Speaker 5: religiously fundamentalist, dogmatic, dangerous, worldest a noxious stew of the

1832
01:46:17,200 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 5: worst of all social dominators and hired was. Regular social

1833
01:46:22,479 --> 01:46:26,400
Speaker 5: dominators might end up in charge of pts, howays, workplaces,

1834
01:46:26,479 --> 01:46:30,120
Speaker 5: local governments, and other personal kingdoms. Not all of them

1835
01:46:30,160 --> 01:46:32,800
Speaker 5: succeed in life due to the animosity they create, the

1836
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:36,320
Speaker 5: obstacles they might face, or their lack of intelligence, attractiveness,

1837
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:38,320
Speaker 5: or network to gain the kind of power they want.

1838
01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:40,599
Speaker 5: And some of them might even get caught in their

1839
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:43,680
Speaker 5: lives and i legalities and don't have the capital to

1840
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:48,080
Speaker 5: get out of it. They see double highs, they tend

1841
01:46:48,120 --> 01:46:52,240
Speaker 5: to have a head start will Regular social dominators have

1842
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,040
Speaker 5: to fake their religiousness to get the support of hired was.

1843
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 5: Double highs can more easily get started in their own churches,

1844
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:03,640
Speaker 5: already part of the in group, sharing their prejudices, economic philosophies,

1845
01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 5: and political leanents, even if they are faking it a

1846
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:10,639
Speaker 5: little bit. A double high already knows all the code words,

1847
01:47:10,760 --> 01:47:13,320
Speaker 5: dog whistles and Bible verses. They need to get ahead

1848
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:16,479
Speaker 5: if they know what stands they should hold about evolution,

1849
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:20,720
Speaker 5: the role of women, abortion, school prayers, censorship, law and order,

1850
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:24,280
Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. Double highs run the show you dig?

1851
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 9: Yeah for sure?

1852
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:29,720
Speaker 5: So now what? Knowing that social dominators do whatever they

1853
01:47:29,720 --> 01:47:32,439
Speaker 5: can to hold on to power, and higher W is

1854
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:35,600
Speaker 5: extremely resistant to change, how do we deal with a

1855
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:39,800
Speaker 5: situation where social change requires dealing with these people? I mean,

1856
01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:43,160
Speaker 5: they can't debate them. Even if you were to intellectually

1857
01:47:43,240 --> 01:47:45,920
Speaker 5: wrestle with a double high leader and utterly destroy them

1858
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 5: with facts and logic, their higher W audience is not

1859
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:53,320
Speaker 5: likely to change their minds. Trying to change highly dogmatic,

1860
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:58,280
Speaker 5: evidence immune ethnocentric people is an exercise in frustration and futility.

1861
01:47:59,320 --> 01:48:01,800
Speaker 5: It's also hard to fight the share fair mongerant power

1862
01:48:02,040 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 5: of the likes of Fox News and Facebook to combat

1863
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:08,599
Speaker 5: the class and religious roots of ethnocentrism and to reduce

1864
01:48:08,640 --> 01:48:12,200
Speaker 5: the self righteousness of their followers. It's even harder to

1865
01:48:12,240 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 5: convince them that they are being systematically misinformed and played

1866
01:48:16,200 --> 01:48:19,479
Speaker 5: for fools by their leaders. Even if they listen to

1867
01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:23,479
Speaker 5: these episodes or watched my videos or read ultimized books,

1868
01:48:24,120 --> 01:48:27,599
Speaker 5: they would either get defensive or honestly, because a lot

1869
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:30,280
Speaker 5: of them aren't self aware, assume that this is about

1870
01:48:30,320 --> 01:48:35,519
Speaker 5: someone else finding a way to compartmentalize, misinterpret, rationalize, and

1871
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:48,080
Speaker 5: dogmatically deny anything I've said so far. So what to do? First,

1872
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:54,000
Speaker 5: and foremost, representation matters. It's important to hire see more

1873
01:48:54,120 --> 01:48:57,120
Speaker 5: of the breath and diversity of human existence and experience.

1874
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:01,840
Speaker 5: The reality is skewed. The visibility and representation of people

1875
01:49:01,840 --> 01:49:04,640
Speaker 5: from other backgrounds, not just in media, but also in

1876
01:49:04,680 --> 01:49:08,720
Speaker 5: their personal lives is very important. One thing studies have

1877
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:11,320
Speaker 5: shown is that higher w's who know a Cay person

1878
01:49:11,760 --> 01:49:14,240
Speaker 5: are far less likely to be homophobic than their fellow

1879
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:17,960
Speaker 5: higher ws. And the best exposures different types of people

1880
01:49:18,439 --> 01:49:22,120
Speaker 5: is through access to higher education, or more broadly, just

1881
01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 5: any space with diversity. College may not necessarily turn them

1882
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:33,160
Speaker 5: into commit to revolutionaries, contrary to popular belief, but the

1883
01:49:33,280 --> 01:49:37,080
Speaker 5: environment of higher education has a tremendously beneficial impact on

1884
01:49:37,160 --> 01:49:41,040
Speaker 5: higher ws. Four years of undergrad experience can knock their

1885
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:46,400
Speaker 5: scores down by fifteen to twenty percent. Academic spaces need

1886
01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:51,519
Speaker 5: to be alive, vibrant, and most of all accessible, and

1887
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:55,200
Speaker 5: we need people in academic and non academic spaces to

1888
01:49:55,320 --> 01:49:59,840
Speaker 5: embrace the power of influence. I don't mean this in

1889
01:49:59,840 --> 01:50:02,439
Speaker 5: a give them an authority and to follow kind of way.

1890
01:50:03,080 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 5: I'm not talking about becoming a club president or ordering

1891
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:10,040
Speaker 5: people around. I'm not thinking about hierarchical leadership, but rather

1892
01:50:11,080 --> 01:50:15,680
Speaker 5: the natural influence of individuals who model exemplary behavior and

1893
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:19,000
Speaker 5: provide an example for others to look to, people who

1894
01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:22,479
Speaker 5: freely lend their talents and knowledge and mentorship to others.

1895
01:50:23,160 --> 01:50:26,080
Speaker 5: In a conformity experiment, in however, in the late nineteen forties,

1896
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:30,760
Speaker 5: real subjects were surrounded by actors who deliberately gave obviously

1897
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:35,400
Speaker 5: wrong answers to questions. Usually, the subjects went along with

1898
01:50:35,439 --> 01:50:38,680
Speaker 5: the wrong majority at least some of the time. But

1899
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:42,400
Speaker 5: if in another condition of the experiment, one other person

1900
01:50:42,439 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 5: gave the right answer, real subjects were much more likely

1901
01:50:46,120 --> 01:50:48,639
Speaker 5: to do the right thing, even though it meant joining

1902
01:50:48,720 --> 01:50:53,759
Speaker 5: a distinct minority rather than the majority. So I'm saying

1903
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 5: that as the people who hold radical beliefs, it's important

1904
01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:00,880
Speaker 5: to stand up. You know, you don't have to form

1905
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,320
Speaker 5: majority to have an effect. Two or three people speaking

1906
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:07,559
Speaker 5: out can sometimes change the decisions of entire school boards,

1907
01:51:07,640 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 5: church boards, or other institutions. Obviously, reform is not going

1908
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:15,760
Speaker 5: to be enough, but we do need to present some

1909
01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:18,840
Speaker 5: opposition on that front and that sphere. You know, lack

1910
01:51:18,880 --> 01:51:22,519
Speaker 5: of opposition teaches dominators to keep dominating, and it only

1911
01:51:22,560 --> 01:51:26,920
Speaker 5: takes one person to start the opposition. The domino effects

1912
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,840
Speaker 5: that could potentially influence even higher wis because at the

1913
01:51:30,920 --> 01:51:33,439
Speaker 5: end of the day, it's clear that they want to

1914
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:38,040
Speaker 5: be quote unquote normal in their bubbles and their echo chambers.

1915
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:41,600
Speaker 5: They don't really realize how extreme. They are. Then, to

1916
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:44,840
Speaker 5: be exposed to the perspectives and experiences of people outside

1917
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:48,599
Speaker 5: their tight circles, Mutual aid and other organized efforts can

1918
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:52,000
Speaker 5: show them the humanity of other people finding common ground

1919
01:51:52,320 --> 01:51:57,200
Speaker 5: in common course. But ultimately, in my view, the best

1920
01:51:57,280 --> 01:52:03,160
Speaker 5: long term solutions require youth liberation and prefiguration. We need

1921
01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:06,519
Speaker 5: use liberation both at home and at school and everywhere else.

1922
01:52:07,400 --> 01:52:09,280
Speaker 5: As long as we continue to reinforce the notion that

1923
01:52:09,400 --> 01:52:12,519
Speaker 5: children need to blindly submit to authorities, as long as

1924
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:15,840
Speaker 5: we refuse to grant them humanity and autonomy. We will

1925
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 5: continue to be without humanity and autonomy. We will continue

1926
01:52:19,360 --> 01:52:22,920
Speaker 5: to have adult generation after generation who do not know

1927
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:27,800
Speaker 5: how to resist authority. We must prefigure those relationships in

1928
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:31,320
Speaker 5: our personal lives and our social spaces, or we must

1929
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:35,240
Speaker 5: prefigure our liberation. It's not enough to just campaign against

1930
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:38,679
Speaker 5: social dominators. We have to dismantle the systems that allow

1931
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:41,639
Speaker 5: them to dominate in the first place. The only way

1932
01:52:41,680 --> 01:52:44,679
Speaker 5: to keep social dominators from season power is to prefigure

1933
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:48,160
Speaker 5: a system where no one person can so easily coerce

1934
01:52:48,200 --> 01:52:52,680
Speaker 5: and dominate. To quote Barb Waltimaya one last time, we

1935
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 5: cannot secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our

1936
01:52:55,520 --> 01:52:58,479
Speaker 5: posterity if we sit with our oars out of the water.

1937
01:52:59,160 --> 01:53:02,719
Speaker 5: If we drift mind leslie, circumstances can sweep us a disaster.

1938
01:53:04,040 --> 01:53:09,240
Speaker 5: Our societies presently produce millions of highly authoritarian personalities, as

1939
01:53:09,280 --> 01:53:12,799
Speaker 5: a matter of course, enough to stage the Nuremberg rallies

1940
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:16,559
Speaker 5: over and over and over again. Turn in a blind

1941
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:19,760
Speaker 5: eye to this put someday point guns at all of

1942
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:23,080
Speaker 5: our heads, and the fingers on the triggers will belong

1943
01:53:23,200 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 5: to right wing authoritarians. We ignore this at our peril.

1944
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:34,400
Speaker 5: Social dominators want you complacent, apathetic, hopeless and out of

1945
01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:38,200
Speaker 5: the way. They want to control everything and everybody, and

1946
01:53:38,240 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 5: they have their loyal followers ready to mobilize. They are

1947
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:46,559
Speaker 5: not the majority, but they're determined to win. Do not

1948
01:53:46,680 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 5: let them. If you know what's happening, if you spot

1949
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:54,680
Speaker 5: these signs in your own spaces, it's your responsibility to

1950
01:53:54,680 --> 01:53:58,680
Speaker 5: do something about it, to organize, to educate. Because one

1951
01:53:58,680 --> 01:54:02,480
Speaker 5: person could accomplish so much, and two people could accomplish

1952
01:54:02,479 --> 01:54:06,920
Speaker 5: so much more. Good luck, all power to all the

1953
01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:11,600
Speaker 5: people because it could happen here. Can follow me on

1954
01:54:11,640 --> 01:54:15,800
Speaker 5: puture dot com. Stas Saint Drew. This has been Andre

1955
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:20,560
Speaker 5: sage Araism. It could happen here. All La Jazz.

1956
01:54:20,800 --> 01:54:34,960
Speaker 1: Peace, welcome back to it could happen here. A podcast

1957
01:54:35,160 --> 01:54:40,480
Speaker 1: about it happening here. And you know, when we talk

1958
01:54:40,520 --> 01:54:44,280
Speaker 1: about like collapse, things falling apart, there's very few case

1959
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:47,240
Speaker 1: studies that are more important for folks to be aware

1960
01:54:47,240 --> 01:54:49,720
Speaker 1: of than what has happened and is continuing to happen

1961
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:53,840
Speaker 1: in Northeast Syria, in a region of the world known

1962
01:54:53,880 --> 01:55:00,680
Speaker 1: as Rojava, or the Autonomous Regions of Northeastyria and I'm

1963
01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:03,560
Speaker 1: here with James Stout. He and I have both reported

1964
01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:07,560
Speaker 1: from the ro Javon Project, and we are talking again

1965
01:55:07,640 --> 01:55:11,960
Speaker 1: with Arthur and Debbie Bookchin about what's going on there now,

1966
01:55:12,480 --> 01:55:17,640
Speaker 1: kind of as as the struggle continues, so to speak.

1967
01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:20,280
Speaker 4: That's right, and thank you very much for joining us,

1968
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:23,760
Speaker 4: Arthurine Debbie, and you're both here in your capacity as

1969
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:27,040
Speaker 4: representatives of the Emergency Committee for Rajava.

1970
01:55:27,160 --> 01:55:30,560
Speaker 13: Right, that's right, and thanks for having us.

1971
01:55:30,920 --> 01:55:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for coming back.

1972
01:55:32,840 --> 01:55:35,320
Speaker 4: So I think perhaps we should begin by explaining what

1973
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:38,080
Speaker 4: ECI is and does. I've been very fortunate to be

1974
01:55:38,120 --> 01:55:41,160
Speaker 4: asked to speak at one of your meetings, so I'm familiar,

1975
01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 4: but I think maybe some of our listeners wouldn't be.

1976
01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:45,920
Speaker 4: So could you begin with explaining what it is what

1977
01:55:45,960 --> 01:55:46,360
Speaker 4: it does?

1978
01:55:47,760 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1979
01:55:48,240 --> 01:55:52,920
Speaker 14: Absolutely, So, the Emergency Committee for Is it's kind of

1980
01:55:52,960 --> 01:55:57,840
Speaker 14: the only standing US based organization focused.

1981
01:55:57,480 --> 01:55:59,839
Speaker 6: On solidarity with the Rojeva revolution.

1982
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:03,640
Speaker 14: And what we do is we try to build a

1983
01:56:03,720 --> 01:56:07,120
Speaker 14: grassroots solidarity movement with the revolution in North East Syria,

1984
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:11,400
Speaker 14: with the Kurtis Freedom movement more broadly, and we do

1985
01:56:11,480 --> 01:56:13,320
Speaker 14: that in a few different ways. One is like just

1986
01:56:13,360 --> 01:56:16,120
Speaker 14: trying to inform the public. Right, So, kind of public education.

1987
01:56:16,920 --> 01:56:21,440
Speaker 14: Another is advocacy trying to sort of put pressure on

1988
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:25,760
Speaker 14: the United States government to stop arming people who are

1989
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:28,880
Speaker 14: trying to kill everybody in Rogeva and to support the

1990
01:56:28,920 --> 01:56:32,520
Speaker 14: people instead. But another thing that we do is try

1991
01:56:32,520 --> 01:56:35,800
Speaker 14: to build kind of movement to movement relationships, now, like

1992
01:56:36,240 --> 01:56:40,320
Speaker 14: finding social movements in the United States that we think

1993
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:43,080
Speaker 14: share a lot of affinity with movement over there, try

1994
01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:44,560
Speaker 14: to put them in touch and try to kind of

1995
01:56:44,560 --> 01:56:46,680
Speaker 14: facilitate dialogue.

1996
01:56:46,960 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's important to kind

1997
01:56:49,400 --> 01:56:53,280
Speaker 1: of start, as we often do, with the attempt to

1998
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:56,520
Speaker 1: get the US government to stop arming folks killing the

1999
01:56:56,520 --> 01:56:59,000
Speaker 1: people there, which in this case refers specifically to the

2000
01:56:59,040 --> 01:57:03,320
Speaker 1: Turkish military. I mean, we're all kind of dealing with

2001
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 1: in a separate part of the world, how difficult it

2002
01:57:05,560 --> 01:57:09,080
Speaker 1: is to stop the United States government from army people.

2003
01:57:11,000 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 6: Do that, right.

2004
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:15,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's a great point, Robert. You know, I think

2005
01:57:15,680 --> 01:57:19,360
Speaker 13: sometimes it's hard for people to even comprehend just the

2006
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 13: massive flow of weapons from the United States to Turkey.

2007
01:57:23,800 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, over the years, it's.

2008
01:57:25,680 --> 01:57:29,400
Speaker 13: Been it's just I think in the last fifteen years alone,

2009
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:33,760
Speaker 13: the US has sold Turkey something like four billion dollars

2010
01:57:33,760 --> 01:57:37,840
Speaker 13: worth of Patriot missiles alone, you know, and then billions

2011
01:57:38,240 --> 01:57:43,320
Speaker 13: or at least millions, and you know, helicopters, the Cobra

2012
01:57:43,400 --> 01:57:48,200
Speaker 13: attack helicopters. There is just a huge flow of arms

2013
01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:51,720
Speaker 13: from the United States to Turkey, and as Arthur said,

2014
01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:53,960
Speaker 13: you know, one of the things that we really do

2015
01:57:54,280 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 13: try and do at ECR is to get people not

2016
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:02,760
Speaker 13: only aware but also into doing some advocacy on that.

2017
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:06,560
Speaker 13: And one of the things that we're also trying to

2018
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:09,400
Speaker 13: prevent right now is the sale of any more F

2019
01:58:09,480 --> 01:58:14,040
Speaker 13: sixteens to Turkey, which, as I'm sure your listeners know,

2020
01:58:14,160 --> 01:58:18,600
Speaker 13: are used in the bombing of people in Rojeva and

2021
01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:22,800
Speaker 13: also in Turkey and in northern Iraq. So that's a

2022
01:58:22,960 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 13: very critical issue in fact.

2023
01:58:26,040 --> 01:58:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's a critical issue in part because

2024
01:58:29,040 --> 01:58:32,880
Speaker 1: like what we're seeing is I would describe it as

2025
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 1: a pretty concentrated attempt to destroy civil society in Rojeva, right,

2026
01:58:38,360 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: Like you're not just through the use of air strikes,

2027
01:58:42,120 --> 01:58:46,200
Speaker 1: through things like blocking off access to water, but the

2028
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:49,280
Speaker 1: F sixteens that Turkey purchases from the United States and

2029
01:58:49,280 --> 01:58:52,200
Speaker 1: the continuing armaments to keep those things flying and firing

2030
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:54,880
Speaker 1: missiles are a huge part of how they're able to

2031
01:58:54,920 --> 01:58:59,160
Speaker 1: continue degrading the capacity of the self administration to maintain

2032
01:58:59,240 --> 01:59:01,920
Speaker 1: civil society exactly.

2033
01:59:02,000 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 13: I mean, there is really an aim They're aimed to

2034
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:11,960
Speaker 13: completely destabilize the society, to shake confidence in the autonomous administration,

2035
01:59:13,200 --> 01:59:17,839
Speaker 13: to break morale, to engage in psychological terror, and frankly,

2036
01:59:18,160 --> 01:59:21,080
Speaker 13: you know, also to do physical harm. As I'm sure

2037
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:25,480
Speaker 13: you know and your listeners know, they Turkey very effectively

2038
01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:30,720
Speaker 13: uses drones and other methods to take out leadership, particularly

2039
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:35,840
Speaker 13: female leadership, women who are leaders of the movement. And

2040
01:59:36,160 --> 01:59:39,080
Speaker 13: you know, there's not a day that goes by really

2041
01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:44,040
Speaker 13: that doesn't include strikes from Turkey into Rojeva.

2042
01:59:44,120 --> 01:59:45,120
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm just thinking.

2043
01:59:46,360 --> 01:59:51,800
Speaker 13: You know, the Membij Military Council just has reported in

2044
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:54,760
Speaker 13: the last couple of days that the State of Turkey

2045
01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:58,080
Speaker 13: has shelled various villages and Membies.

2046
01:59:58,360 --> 01:59:59,000
Speaker 5: You know that.

2047
02:00:00,600 --> 02:00:07,720
Speaker 13: Kurdish neighborhoods in Aleppo are really subjected to continuous embargoes

2048
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:13,160
Speaker 13: by the Damascus government, but also you know, Turkey intercedes

2049
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:18,120
Speaker 13: to prevent supplies from getting to these places. So it's

2050
02:00:18,240 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 13: really I think there's something like more than two hundred

2051
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:25,720
Speaker 13: bombings by Turkey in Iraqi Kurdistan even since just the

2052
02:00:25,760 --> 02:00:30,320
Speaker 13: beginning of the year, so it's really ongoing assault.

2053
02:00:31,720 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 14: No, absolutely, I think you know, for people who are

2054
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:38,040
Speaker 14: less familiar with it, it's easy to kind of get

2055
02:00:38,080 --> 02:00:40,960
Speaker 14: bogged down in the weeds because all the details they

2056
02:00:41,040 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 14: change every day. But I think the bronze strokes are

2057
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:47,120
Speaker 14: pretty clear and haven't changed for a long time.

2058
02:00:47,160 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 6: I mean, Turkey sees.

2059
02:00:48,120 --> 02:00:52,640
Speaker 14: This revolution rightly so as a threat to its own power,

2060
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:55,280
Speaker 14: to its own ideology. You know, the idea that local

2061
02:00:55,280 --> 02:01:01,760
Speaker 14: communities would govern themselves pluralistically through autonomy is a direct.

2062
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 6: Threat to the idea of the Turkish state, which is

2063
02:01:03,360 --> 02:01:03,920
Speaker 6: basically a.

2064
02:01:03,880 --> 02:01:07,600
Speaker 14: Fascist nation state, and they kind of have a twofold strategy.

2065
02:01:07,680 --> 02:01:09,520
Speaker 14: I think you could see it this way, right, So,

2066
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:12,640
Speaker 14: like for those who don't know, Turkey has already invade

2067
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:15,960
Speaker 14: in Northeastiria multiple times. It's invaded Aufrin in twenty eighteen,

2068
02:01:16,320 --> 02:01:20,320
Speaker 14: se Dekanye ta Labiat in twenty nineteen, and it occupies

2069
02:01:20,400 --> 02:01:24,520
Speaker 14: that territory still to this day. But when it's been

2070
02:01:24,640 --> 02:01:27,760
Speaker 14: unable to seize more territory directly, it kind of has

2071
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 14: this twofold strategy where the other side of the coin

2072
02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:34,960
Speaker 14: is to just do everything possible to make life unlivable, right,

2073
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:37,160
Speaker 14: So that's where the assassinations come in.

2074
02:01:37,600 --> 02:01:38,600
Speaker 6: That's where the sort of.

2075
02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:44,240
Speaker 14: Information warfare, blocking of water, sort of economic embargo. The

2076
02:01:44,280 --> 02:01:48,520
Speaker 14: basic idea is just to spread fear, to spread uncertainty

2077
02:01:48,600 --> 02:01:51,160
Speaker 14: into every sphere of life, and, like you said, Robert,

2078
02:01:51,200 --> 02:01:53,640
Speaker 14: to basically attack civil society itself.

2079
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:57,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wonder if you could explain. I think our

2080
02:01:57,280 --> 02:02:00,880
Speaker 4: listeners are maybe familiar with the campaign again and civil

2081
02:02:00,920 --> 02:02:05,680
Speaker 4: society and civilian targets that we saw, like in October

2082
02:02:05,760 --> 02:02:07,960
Speaker 4: November of last year, that I saw some of while

2083
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:13,760
Speaker 4: I was there. But Turkey's recently launched like a spring offensive, right,

2084
02:02:14,400 --> 02:02:20,280
Speaker 4: which doesn't isn't exclusively unlimited to bombing, but also it

2085
02:02:20,520 --> 02:02:26,040
Speaker 4: contains like I guess, combined arms, you know, infantry bombing.

2086
02:02:26,360 --> 02:02:29,760
Speaker 4: Can you explain what's happening there and what the sort

2087
02:02:29,800 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 4: of I think the plan you've sort of very well

2088
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:33,919
Speaker 4: summed up already, right, which is to make life unlivable

2089
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:36,960
Speaker 4: for the Kurdish freedom movement. But can you explain what's

2090
02:02:37,000 --> 02:02:38,920
Speaker 4: been happening in the last few weeks for people who

2091
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:39,760
Speaker 4: haven't caught up.

2092
02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:42,960
Speaker 14: So for one, for people to understand the connection in

2093
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:47,600
Speaker 14: the first place. Right, it's important to understand that, really, wow,

2094
02:02:47,680 --> 02:02:51,080
Speaker 14: there are distinct organizations which are autonomous and are place

2095
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:55,120
Speaker 14: based within the Kurdish movement. Right, there's their own parties

2096
02:02:55,120 --> 02:02:57,840
Speaker 14: and self defense forces in Syria and in Iraq and

2097
02:02:57,880 --> 02:03:00,800
Speaker 14: other parts of Kurdistan. It's important to see it also

2098
02:03:00,840 --> 02:03:03,600
Speaker 14: as kind of one big Kurtish freedom movement in another

2099
02:03:03,680 --> 02:03:06,360
Speaker 14: sense and an important sense, because Turkey sees it in

2100
02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:10,200
Speaker 14: that light. So for the same reasons, the Turkey wants

2101
02:03:10,240 --> 02:03:13,200
Speaker 14: to crush the revolution in Northeastyria, the Turkey wants to

2102
02:03:13,240 --> 02:03:17,080
Speaker 14: crush the PKK, the Kurdistan Workers Party, right, and the

2103
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 14: gorillas of the PKK are based in northern Iraq, and

2104
02:03:21,520 --> 02:03:24,880
Speaker 14: time and time again they've tried to sort of dislodge

2105
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:28,360
Speaker 14: the gorilla forces from the mountains, but it's pretty hard

2106
02:03:28,360 --> 02:03:31,840
Speaker 14: to do. You know, this is NATO's second largest military

2107
02:03:31,960 --> 02:03:34,520
Speaker 14: and they still after decades, have not been able to

2108
02:03:34,520 --> 02:03:36,400
Speaker 14: crush this insurgency.

2109
02:03:36,960 --> 02:03:38,320
Speaker 6: And so what we're seeing.

2110
02:03:38,000 --> 02:03:41,800
Speaker 14: In recent weeks is not necessarily so novel. I mean,

2111
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 14: you can again you can get into the weeds about

2112
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 14: the region of Metina and a particular road that they're

2113
02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:50,400
Speaker 14: trying to seize for logistics on their way to the

2114
02:03:50,440 --> 02:03:54,920
Speaker 14: Mountain of Ghara. But the truth is they're trying to

2115
02:03:54,960 --> 02:03:58,360
Speaker 14: crush the movement where it is and they're seizing an opportunity.

2116
02:03:58,680 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 14: There's often like a weather wind for the fighting in

2117
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:04,040
Speaker 14: the mountains as well, and so when the snow starts

2118
02:04:04,080 --> 02:04:06,040
Speaker 14: to melt in the spring, you start to see an

2119
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:09,680
Speaker 14: escalation of the fighting in the mountains, which often winds

2120
02:04:09,720 --> 02:04:12,600
Speaker 14: down in the fall. Again, but it's yet to be seen.

2121
02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:13,560
Speaker 6: Now this is going to go.

2122
02:04:13,640 --> 02:04:15,840
Speaker 14: I mean, y'all have I don't have to tell you

2123
02:04:15,920 --> 02:04:20,080
Speaker 14: right like you've done some recent episodes on technological developments

2124
02:04:20,120 --> 02:04:23,080
Speaker 14: with the movement, and Turkey's been having a really hard

2125
02:04:23,120 --> 02:04:24,600
Speaker 14: time making gains on the ground.

2126
02:04:25,160 --> 02:04:29,320
Speaker 13: And also I mean, as I think, as Megan Bodette

2127
02:04:29,360 --> 02:04:33,640
Speaker 13: noted on this podcast recently, you know, the Turkish leader

2128
02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:38,080
Speaker 13: Erdowan tends to take out any insult he feels he suffered,

2129
02:04:38,320 --> 02:04:42,240
Speaker 13: and particularly elections setbacks has happened in the local elections

2130
02:04:42,240 --> 02:04:46,120
Speaker 13: at the end of March on the Kurdish regions everywhere

2131
02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:55,840
Speaker 13: in Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and so we're seeing also crackdowns

2132
02:04:55,600 --> 02:05:00,000
Speaker 13: has happened also for quite some time. But on journalists

2133
02:05:00,960 --> 02:05:05,880
Speaker 13: again sort of cranking up again. It's funny that on

2134
02:05:05,960 --> 02:05:11,920
Speaker 13: World Press Day, which was May third, Kurdish journalist was arrested,

2135
02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:15,840
Speaker 13: you know, strip search, a woman thrown in jail, and

2136
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:21,000
Speaker 13: this is you know, another sort of wave of politicians

2137
02:05:21,040 --> 02:05:26,040
Speaker 13: being arrested. Just again on Monday, I think thirteen politicians

2138
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:30,720
Speaker 13: were sentenced to six years plus in jail, in prison.

2139
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:37,120
Speaker 13: So this sort of policy that seems to show itself

2140
02:05:37,280 --> 02:05:41,440
Speaker 13: every time Airdawan feels a bit threatened is one that

2141
02:05:41,480 --> 02:05:44,520
Speaker 13: we're seeing right now, in part I think as a

2142
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:48,879
Speaker 13: result of those election defeats that his party suffered.

2143
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:54,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, absolutely, and sinister as it is. Whenever they lose

2144
02:05:54,160 --> 02:05:58,600
Speaker 14: in the mountains, they often hit harder in Northeastyria and

2145
02:05:58,640 --> 02:06:02,080
Speaker 14: vice versa. So it's all just a big kind of

2146
02:06:02,360 --> 02:06:03,680
Speaker 14: ugly game that they're playing.

2147
02:06:05,720 --> 02:06:07,440
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get to some more here, but

2148
02:06:07,520 --> 02:06:09,440
Speaker 1: first we've got to take a quick break. We're going

2149
02:06:09,480 --> 02:06:11,800
Speaker 1: to throw to some ads and then we'll come back

2150
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 1: and continue this discussion. All right, we're back, and I'm

2151
02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:31,040
Speaker 1: trying to get a sense of how the situation is

2152
02:06:31,080 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 1: on the ground right now despite the or considering the

2153
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:39,120
Speaker 1: challenges of the attacks on infrastructure, that have continued to

2154
02:06:39,520 --> 02:06:41,880
Speaker 1: go on, like what are we looking at from a

2155
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:44,640
Speaker 1: daily life point of view in places like Comichelo.

2156
02:06:45,280 --> 02:06:47,680
Speaker 13: Well, you know, one of the things that I think

2157
02:06:47,800 --> 02:06:52,240
Speaker 13: is important to emphasize is just how strong a lot

2158
02:06:52,320 --> 02:06:55,839
Speaker 13: of the civil structures really are even in the face

2159
02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:59,800
Speaker 13: of these attacks by Turkey. And I'm sure Arthur will

2160
02:06:59,800 --> 02:07:02,560
Speaker 13: have something to say about that, and also about maybe

2161
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:04,960
Speaker 13: some of the sort of the military side of this.

2162
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:11,560
Speaker 13: But you know, the extraordinary thing about Rojeva is just

2163
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:16,560
Speaker 13: how deeply engaged they are on the civil level. In

2164
02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:19,520
Speaker 13: our group at the Emergency Committee for Rojeva, we're in

2165
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:23,160
Speaker 13: contact with a lot of people in civil society and

2166
02:07:23,320 --> 02:07:26,760
Speaker 13: it's I'm always amazed at how many sort of requests

2167
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:33,520
Speaker 13: we get for, you know, exchanges of information and scholars

2168
02:07:33,720 --> 02:07:37,520
Speaker 13: and they're building the university there to do more and

2169
02:07:37,640 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 13: more technical things, you know, whether computers or agricultural sciences

2170
02:07:43,400 --> 02:07:47,560
Speaker 13: or you know, just a vast variety of graduate program

2171
02:07:47,600 --> 02:07:50,280
Speaker 13: they want to do right now in social ecology that

2172
02:07:50,720 --> 02:07:54,280
Speaker 13: I've been working with them on. And so so, even

2173
02:07:54,440 --> 02:07:58,520
Speaker 13: though there's this effort by Turkey to kind of terrorize

2174
02:07:58,520 --> 02:08:02,720
Speaker 13: the civilian population, and I'm sure you know, people can

2175
02:08:02,760 --> 02:08:05,640
Speaker 13: imagine what it must feel like to have drones flying

2176
02:08:05,760 --> 02:08:09,080
Speaker 13: constantly overhead and wondering if you get into a car

2177
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:11,640
Speaker 13: whether it might you might you know, be the subject

2178
02:08:11,640 --> 02:08:16,760
Speaker 13: of a drone attack. Nonetheless, there is still this extraordinary

2179
02:08:17,640 --> 02:08:22,520
Speaker 13: sort of hopefulness and also energy towards building the society.

2180
02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:25,360
Speaker 13: And for example, one of the things that they recently did,

2181
02:08:25,440 --> 02:08:28,600
Speaker 13: and it took a long time, but they rewrote their

2182
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:31,320
Speaker 13: Social Contract, which is what we would think of as

2183
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:36,680
Speaker 13: a constitution, to empower women even more, you know, to

2184
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:43,040
Speaker 13: empower various ethnic minorities more, and to make it a

2185
02:08:43,160 --> 02:08:46,840
Speaker 13: document that is truly inclusive in terms of how it

2186
02:08:46,920 --> 02:08:50,680
Speaker 13: was written and how it will be implemented, and so

2187
02:08:51,320 --> 02:08:54,840
Speaker 13: on the ground, I think, even though they are suffering

2188
02:08:54,960 --> 02:08:57,640
Speaker 13: in a lot of ways, and they are because you know,

2189
02:08:57,800 --> 02:09:01,400
Speaker 13: Rojaeve is also a region that is subject to terrible

2190
02:09:01,560 --> 02:09:06,680
Speaker 13: environmental dislocations because of global warming, there's still a huge

2191
02:09:07,040 --> 02:09:11,120
Speaker 13: sort of excitement I think about about the fact that

2192
02:09:11,120 --> 02:09:14,680
Speaker 13: they are self governing and the fact that they are

2193
02:09:14,720 --> 02:09:18,680
Speaker 13: empowering women, and those kinds of activities, especially on the

2194
02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:22,760
Speaker 13: part of the women's movement. Congress star just continue to

2195
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:26,640
Speaker 13: go on. You know, they've built an alternative justice system.

2196
02:09:27,080 --> 02:09:31,760
Speaker 13: They are increasingly turning their sort of economy as much

2197
02:09:31,800 --> 02:09:34,720
Speaker 13: as is feasible, and it's a slow process, but into

2198
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:37,960
Speaker 13: a more of a cooperative economy. So all of those

2199
02:09:38,000 --> 02:09:42,400
Speaker 13: things are very much underway there. And education is a

2200
02:09:42,480 --> 02:09:43,400
Speaker 13: huge part of that.

2201
02:09:44,120 --> 02:09:47,920
Speaker 6: No, I mean, that's that's also true, It really is.

2202
02:09:48,720 --> 02:09:51,840
Speaker 14: But just to speak to kind of the other side

2203
02:09:51,880 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 14: of that, you know, Robert s sort of what is

2204
02:09:54,680 --> 02:09:55,360
Speaker 14: life like, say.

2205
02:09:55,200 --> 02:09:57,040
Speaker 6: In a place like Commushula right now?

2206
02:09:57,760 --> 02:09:59,920
Speaker 14: You know, I think in some ways it's a lot

2207
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:03,320
Speaker 14: like it was when I was in a place called Zirgon,

2208
02:10:03,480 --> 02:10:07,240
Speaker 14: which is another frontline city where at the same time

2209
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:10,240
Speaker 14: Debbie's describing life goes on, people trying to build up

2210
02:10:10,240 --> 02:10:14,000
Speaker 14: civil society, They're trying to organize the communes and the cooperatives.

2211
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:18,080
Speaker 14: At the same time, there's a tremendous fear and uncertainty,

2212
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:22,800
Speaker 14: fear in an immediate sense around these drone strikes. I mean,

2213
02:10:22,840 --> 02:10:25,440
Speaker 14: you guys have been there too, right, Like I've been

2214
02:10:25,480 --> 02:10:28,360
Speaker 14: home I think eleven months now, and I still every

2215
02:10:28,360 --> 02:10:31,160
Speaker 14: time I hear a small airplane, my body just even

2216
02:10:31,160 --> 02:10:33,560
Speaker 14: if my brain knows that it's just a plane, like

2217
02:10:33,600 --> 02:10:37,080
Speaker 14: my body's convinced it's a Turkish drone. And imagine, you know,

2218
02:10:37,160 --> 02:10:38,760
Speaker 14: you live your whole life in a place like that,

2219
02:10:38,920 --> 02:10:40,600
Speaker 14: or you've spent the last ten years, So a lot

2220
02:10:40,640 --> 02:10:44,720
Speaker 14: of people are living in this constant state of fear

2221
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:47,880
Speaker 14: and uncertainty. Even on a practical level. You know, say

2222
02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:51,160
Speaker 14: you're a farmer and you're going to plant your seats

2223
02:10:51,160 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 14: this year, do you know that you're even going to

2224
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:56,440
Speaker 14: have your land in a month or six months? You know,

2225
02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:01,360
Speaker 14: people are taking Turkey's threat of an Invasionviously, it hasn't

2226
02:11:01,440 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 14: happened again since twenty nineteen, but I can tell you

2227
02:11:04,000 --> 02:11:07,760
Speaker 14: I talked to people there almost every day, and they're

2228
02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:11,560
Speaker 14: taking it extremely seriously. So there's kind of this idea

2229
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:16,720
Speaker 14: of impending invasion sort of hangs like a cloud over

2230
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:19,240
Speaker 14: daily life in so many ways. And on top of

2231
02:11:19,280 --> 02:11:23,320
Speaker 14: all of that, of course, since I left Northeast Siria,

2232
02:11:23,360 --> 02:11:27,760
Speaker 14: there was this major wave of attacks against civilian infrastructure

2233
02:11:28,080 --> 02:11:30,520
Speaker 14: right around the time you were there last, James, you know,

2234
02:11:30,560 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 14: and you can probably speak to it more, but I

2235
02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:38,240
Speaker 14: mean we're talking about power stations and oil wells, and

2236
02:11:38,480 --> 02:11:43,800
Speaker 14: hospitals and schools and food storage facilities, So they're still.

2237
02:11:43,560 --> 02:11:46,680
Speaker 6: Really reeling from these infrastructure attacks.

2238
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:50,480
Speaker 13: Cutting off electricity to a million people at a time

2239
02:11:50,800 --> 02:11:52,520
Speaker 13: and water supplies.

2240
02:11:52,200 --> 02:11:54,839
Speaker 1: Which is about a third of the population of the region.

2241
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:58,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you know, war crimes. There's another word

2242
02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:00,000
Speaker 6: for it, that's what they're called.

2243
02:12:00,440 --> 02:12:05,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very jarring experience, at least in my

2244
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:07,480
Speaker 4: time there, which is briefer than then the amount of

2245
02:12:07,520 --> 02:12:10,160
Speaker 4: time both of you have spent there to like go

2246
02:12:10,280 --> 02:12:13,480
Speaker 4: out in the daytime and talk to people and see

2247
02:12:13,480 --> 02:12:16,920
Speaker 4: this incredible optimism for like, we are building a different world,

2248
02:12:17,320 --> 02:12:19,720
Speaker 4: and like it's there and you can see it, and

2249
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:22,640
Speaker 4: we're moving towards it. It's not like, you know, we're

2250
02:12:22,640 --> 02:12:25,120
Speaker 4: building a different world when we have encampments on campus too,

2251
02:12:25,160 --> 02:12:28,480
Speaker 4: but this is a tangible societal product.

2252
02:12:28,600 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2253
02:12:29,120 --> 02:12:33,040
Speaker 1: Well, and that it speaks to That's why the attacks

2254
02:12:33,080 --> 02:12:35,680
Speaker 1: Turkey is carrying out take the form they're taking, right,

2255
02:12:36,080 --> 02:12:41,640
Speaker 1: because the priority, the primary strength of the self administration

2256
02:12:41,920 --> 02:12:45,560
Speaker 1: is not in its arms. It's in its ability to

2257
02:12:45,720 --> 02:12:49,400
Speaker 1: provide a functional civil society that people are motivated to

2258
02:12:49,440 --> 02:12:52,280
Speaker 1: take part in, which is why their primary weapon is

2259
02:12:52,320 --> 02:12:54,920
Speaker 1: to try to destroy the ability of people to live.

2260
02:12:55,920 --> 02:12:58,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's exact what it feels.

2261
02:12:58,520 --> 02:13:02,000
Speaker 4: Like like you know, my experience with a brief. You know,

2262
02:13:02,160 --> 02:13:07,280
Speaker 4: we lost electricity every night. People are not willing or

2263
02:13:07,280 --> 02:13:09,080
Speaker 4: people are less willing to go out and drive long

2264
02:13:09,080 --> 02:13:15,160
Speaker 4: distances after dark. There is very clearly damage to the infrastructure.

2265
02:13:15,160 --> 02:13:17,280
Speaker 4: You know, I was in a couple of different places.

2266
02:13:17,440 --> 02:13:20,920
Speaker 4: One of them was having issues getting getting water pumped.

2267
02:13:22,280 --> 02:13:26,080
Speaker 4: There are massive funerals right for people who have been killed.

2268
02:13:26,240 --> 02:13:28,200
Speaker 4: And you get to see this what is like it's

2269
02:13:28,240 --> 02:13:32,400
Speaker 4: a beautiful spectacle in a sense, but also like, you know,

2270
02:13:32,520 --> 02:13:34,840
Speaker 4: you can't spend a week in Roger were a Nazi,

2271
02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:38,040
Speaker 4: a little baby say goodbye to their dad, or just

2272
02:13:38,120 --> 02:13:42,760
Speaker 4: a dead baby, and that's that's terrible, you know.

2273
02:13:42,800 --> 02:13:44,400
Speaker 5: And like the one.

2274
02:13:44,240 --> 02:13:47,200
Speaker 4: Thing that I noticed, which I think people might not

2275
02:13:47,240 --> 02:13:51,080
Speaker 4: have picked up on just sort of consuming media, the

2276
02:13:51,120 --> 02:13:55,200
Speaker 4: presence of people hope about martyrs as they call them,

2277
02:13:55,280 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 4: right Shahad. It's so it's everywhere. From the first place

2278
02:14:01,760 --> 02:14:04,800
Speaker 4: I stepped foot across the river, you know, there were

2279
02:14:04,880 --> 02:14:09,840
Speaker 4: these portraits, these yellow and green portraits on aroundabout since

2280
02:14:09,840 --> 02:14:12,840
Speaker 4: cities and people's homes. Like the scale of the sacrifice

2281
02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:16,280
Speaker 4: both to build this project and to defeat isis I

2282
02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:18,440
Speaker 4: think is very hot. I mean the United States has

2283
02:14:18,480 --> 02:14:21,320
Speaker 4: been all for most of our lives, but it hasn't

2284
02:14:21,760 --> 02:14:24,080
Speaker 4: nowhere near the same impact on our daily lives it

2285
02:14:24,120 --> 02:14:24,720
Speaker 4: has had there.

2286
02:14:25,400 --> 02:14:27,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's so true.

2287
02:14:28,240 --> 02:14:31,160
Speaker 13: There's not a family really in Rogeval. When you spend

2288
02:14:31,200 --> 02:14:34,360
Speaker 13: some time there and you meet with different people, there's

2289
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:37,000
Speaker 13: not a single family that hasn't lost somebody. I mean,

2290
02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:41,280
Speaker 13: it's thirteen thousand people in the fight against ISIS alone

2291
02:14:41,680 --> 02:14:44,720
Speaker 13: and now, and not to mention, for example, the two

2292
02:14:44,800 --> 02:14:49,640
Speaker 13: hundred thousand people who were displaced when Turkey is you know,

2293
02:14:50,080 --> 02:14:57,320
Speaker 13: jihadi malicious invaded Aphrine, the westernmost region. So it's it's

2294
02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:01,000
Speaker 13: absolutely effective bree day life.

2295
02:15:01,520 --> 02:15:04,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, every time I spend a lot of time volunteering

2296
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:08,160
Speaker 4: at the border, as people listening know, and every time

2297
02:15:08,200 --> 02:15:12,200
Speaker 4: we meet Kurdish people, often you know they're they're from

2298
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:16,080
Speaker 4: like northern Kurdistan, which is in Turkey under in control

2299
02:15:16,120 --> 02:15:19,040
Speaker 4: of the Turkish state. I guess even like the volunteers

2300
02:15:19,080 --> 02:15:21,640
Speaker 4: who are not super briefed out shaba, who are just

2301
02:15:21,840 --> 02:15:24,760
Speaker 4: people who want to help. Like everyone knows what it

2302
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:26,680
Speaker 4: means when people when you talk to people and they

2303
02:15:26,720 --> 02:15:28,760
Speaker 4: have the little green picture or the little little yellow

2304
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:32,240
Speaker 4: picture on them, Yeah, which is it's a profound part

2305
02:15:32,240 --> 02:15:34,720
Speaker 4: of the lived experience of being part of the Kurdish

2306
02:15:34,760 --> 02:15:37,080
Speaker 4: freedom movement or just existing as a Kurdish person in

2307
02:15:37,120 --> 02:15:40,640
Speaker 4: that area. And that's it's it's really hard to grasp

2308
02:15:40,720 --> 02:15:41,320
Speaker 4: the scale of that.

2309
02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:43,120
Speaker 6: No, it's so true.

2310
02:15:43,160 --> 02:15:45,800
Speaker 14: I mean, it just makes me think that it's kind

2311
02:15:45,880 --> 02:15:49,720
Speaker 14: of related to this larger sort of spirit of sacrifice

2312
02:15:49,800 --> 02:15:53,760
Speaker 14: that's part of what the movement calls, like a revolutionary personality.

2313
02:15:54,200 --> 02:15:58,120
Speaker 14: You know, in a lot of ways, the families of

2314
02:15:58,440 --> 02:16:00,960
Speaker 14: you know what they call them martyrs, they also see

2315
02:16:00,960 --> 02:16:04,720
Speaker 14: it as their sacrifice, it's their contribution to the movement.

2316
02:16:04,840 --> 02:16:08,320
Speaker 14: And it's it's easy for I think Westerners to kind of,

2317
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:11,600
Speaker 14: I don't know, dismiss it or get really uncomfortable with it.

2318
02:16:11,760 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 14: We're not familiar with that on a cultural level as much.

2319
02:16:15,360 --> 02:16:18,200
Speaker 14: But I think it's it's a mistake to see it

2320
02:16:18,200 --> 02:16:22,920
Speaker 14: that way. I think there's something incredibly profound about it

2321
02:16:22,960 --> 02:16:25,520
Speaker 14: that has to do with the way that people really

2322
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:28,880
Speaker 14: identify their whole lives, the meaning of their lives with

2323
02:16:29,240 --> 02:16:31,680
Speaker 14: the revolution, with the movement, that that is what that

2324
02:16:31,800 --> 02:16:33,640
Speaker 14: is the purpose of their lives, that's the purpose of

2325
02:16:33,680 --> 02:16:37,760
Speaker 14: the life of their families and come what may. That's

2326
02:16:37,800 --> 02:16:42,160
Speaker 14: something that you know, movements here can't really relate to

2327
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:42,960
Speaker 14: in the same way.

2328
02:16:43,120 --> 02:16:46,760
Speaker 1: Yet, I think, yeah, and I kind of want to

2329
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:49,480
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna We're

2330
02:16:49,520 --> 02:16:52,000
Speaker 1: going to throw one last time to adds and then

2331
02:16:52,280 --> 02:16:55,720
Speaker 1: we'll come back and kind of flesh out this discussion,

2332
02:17:07,280 --> 02:17:11,400
Speaker 1: and we're back talking about like what it means to

2333
02:17:11,520 --> 02:17:15,480
Speaker 1: be part of a revolution as opposed to someone who

2334
02:17:15,560 --> 02:17:18,840
Speaker 1: has revolutionary sympathies, which it's easy to be and we

2335
02:17:18,920 --> 02:17:20,840
Speaker 1: have a lot of those in the United States. I'm

2336
02:17:20,840 --> 02:17:22,320
Speaker 1: going to guess most of the people listening to this

2337
02:17:22,400 --> 02:17:25,200
Speaker 1: show have at least some of those, right, whether or

2338
02:17:25,280 --> 02:17:28,480
Speaker 1: not you think there's any realistic chance of seeing that

2339
02:17:28,640 --> 02:17:32,240
Speaker 1: during your own life, it's a very different thing from

2340
02:17:32,280 --> 02:17:36,080
Speaker 1: being from living it, which people do. You know, about

2341
02:17:36,080 --> 02:17:41,120
Speaker 1: three million of them in Rosheva every day, And the

2342
02:17:41,320 --> 02:17:45,359
Speaker 1: sacrifice is a part of it. The kind of continual

2343
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:50,440
Speaker 1: conflict is another part of it. Because you know, it's

2344
02:17:50,480 --> 02:17:54,280
Speaker 1: worth emphasizing we're about a decade into the project right now.

2345
02:17:54,360 --> 02:17:56,879
Speaker 1: Right if we consider that being from you know, the

2346
02:17:56,879 --> 02:18:00,320
Speaker 1: start of the self administration in varying fashion, and that's

2347
02:18:00,440 --> 02:18:03,680
Speaker 1: that's not like it's not a perfectly even process, right,

2348
02:18:03,720 --> 02:18:07,680
Speaker 1: because it occurred as part of this series of broader conflicts.

2349
02:18:07,680 --> 02:18:10,800
Speaker 1: But what you've seen is both the retreat of the

2350
02:18:11,280 --> 02:18:16,200
Speaker 1: government that had formerly controlled the area. You've seen a

2351
02:18:16,240 --> 02:18:20,000
Speaker 1: successful war prosecuted against isis you've seen when you could

2352
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:23,080
Speaker 1: look at as one conflict or kind of a series

2353
02:18:23,120 --> 02:18:25,879
Speaker 1: of conflicts with both these Turkish backed militias and the

2354
02:18:25,920 --> 02:18:31,240
Speaker 1: Turkish military itself, and then this also this continuing conflict

2355
02:18:32,000 --> 02:18:35,120
Speaker 1: both with the environment, you know, just because that that

2356
02:18:35,400 --> 02:18:39,879
Speaker 1: is really that's a force at work here the Cold War,

2357
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:43,160
Speaker 1: that kind of that's not even really a perfect way

2358
02:18:43,160 --> 02:18:46,400
Speaker 1: of describing the situation with the the Asad regime and

2359
02:18:46,480 --> 02:18:49,360
Speaker 1: with you know, their their backers in their Russian government,

2360
02:18:49,400 --> 02:18:53,720
Speaker 1: but it's a it's a complex, interwoven series of conflict.

2361
02:18:53,879 --> 02:18:57,720
Speaker 1: But kind of the result is just a life of

2362
02:18:58,200 --> 02:19:02,039
Speaker 1: conflict for the people who are are part of this

2363
02:19:02,160 --> 02:19:05,560
Speaker 1: revolution as sort of a just a fact of daily life.

2364
02:19:05,600 --> 02:19:07,400
Speaker 1: And I think that is really hard to grasp.

2365
02:19:09,280 --> 02:19:11,480
Speaker 6: I think that's true, and I think there's.

2366
02:19:11,080 --> 02:19:12,520
Speaker 14: Part of it, like you say, that has to do

2367
02:19:12,640 --> 02:19:16,080
Speaker 14: with the sort of objective situation where the conditions of

2368
02:19:16,120 --> 02:19:19,120
Speaker 14: people are living in this perpetual conflict that you're talking about,

2369
02:19:19,640 --> 02:19:21,400
Speaker 14: and at the same time, I think there's also an

2370
02:19:21,440 --> 02:19:24,640
Speaker 14: aspect that's more like, I don't know, like subjective, you

2371
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:27,480
Speaker 14: could call it. It has to do with the kind

2372
02:19:27,480 --> 02:19:30,519
Speaker 14: of movement that they've really actively been building for themselves,

2373
02:19:31,360 --> 02:19:34,520
Speaker 14: and the kind of spirit that their movement has taken

2374
02:19:34,520 --> 02:19:38,680
Speaker 14: on that they've cultivated themselves, sort of painstaking me for years.

2375
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:41,240
Speaker 14: I mean, I think one of the things that I know,

2376
02:19:41,280 --> 02:19:43,000
Speaker 14: Debbie and I really want to get to in our

2377
02:19:43,040 --> 02:19:48,240
Speaker 14: conversations with the speaking tour that we're working on which

2378
02:19:48,320 --> 02:19:50,800
Speaker 14: is coming up later later this month on the West Coast,

2379
02:19:50,879 --> 02:19:53,920
Speaker 14: is we really, well, we want people to be.

2380
02:19:53,879 --> 02:19:55,240
Speaker 6: Inspired by this revolution.

2381
02:19:55,360 --> 02:19:57,960
Speaker 14: We really don't want people to just see it as

2382
02:19:58,000 --> 02:20:00,880
Speaker 14: this very like other thing on the other side of

2383
02:20:00,920 --> 02:20:05,199
Speaker 14: the world. You know, even those who are really supportive,

2384
02:20:05,360 --> 02:20:09,480
Speaker 14: especially us, you know anarchistory, say, fellow travelers, we have

2385
02:20:09,520 --> 02:20:13,400
Speaker 14: a tendency to kind of maybe oversimplify or romanticize what's

2386
02:20:13,440 --> 02:20:15,960
Speaker 14: happening over there and think, oh, well, you know, if

2387
02:20:16,360 --> 02:20:19,080
Speaker 14: the state could just collapse here, I'm sure everybody would

2388
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:23,480
Speaker 14: just sort of like melt into an anarchist utopia of statelessness,

2389
02:20:23,480 --> 02:20:26,720
Speaker 14: and that would be a mistake too. I think the

2390
02:20:26,760 --> 02:20:30,240
Speaker 14: truth is that what Rojava shows you is a real

2391
02:20:30,280 --> 02:20:34,560
Speaker 14: revolution is incredibly messy, and they only were able to

2392
02:20:34,680 --> 02:20:39,199
Speaker 14: kind of face the threats and the opportunities that crisis

2393
02:20:39,240 --> 02:20:41,600
Speaker 14: brought to them in Syria because of the kind of

2394
02:20:41,600 --> 02:20:44,560
Speaker 14: movement they had built for themselves, and they had these

2395
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:49,359
Speaker 14: practical tools to kind of help local communities govern themselves

2396
02:20:49,760 --> 02:20:53,439
Speaker 14: in that sort of chaos in the power vacuum that arose.

2397
02:20:53,520 --> 02:20:56,800
Speaker 14: And you know, in a moment like this the world over,

2398
02:20:57,120 --> 02:20:59,520
Speaker 14: especially here in the United States, you know, we're the

2399
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:02,160
Speaker 14: cris that we're facing, the crisis that we're looking down

2400
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:05,200
Speaker 14: the barrel of I think there's been no more kind

2401
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:08,120
Speaker 14: of relevant or urgent time to think about how those

2402
02:21:08,200 --> 02:21:11,520
Speaker 14: lessons actually could apply here and what it means for us.

2403
02:21:11,640 --> 02:21:13,520
Speaker 14: What kind of movement do we need to build to

2404
02:21:13,560 --> 02:21:15,000
Speaker 14: be ready for that moment.

2405
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:18,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, you know, I really agree, And Robert, I'm glad

2406
02:21:18,520 --> 02:21:21,600
Speaker 13: you mentioned, you know, the fact that the revolution is

2407
02:21:21,640 --> 02:21:24,960
Speaker 13: over ten years old, because I think, you know, And

2408
02:21:25,000 --> 02:21:27,120
Speaker 13: to follow up sort of just on what Arthur was

2409
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:30,480
Speaker 13: saying that sort of sometimes the crises that we face

2410
02:21:30,680 --> 02:21:36,760
Speaker 13: environmentally logical, global warming, and not to mention democracy itself,

2411
02:21:37,120 --> 02:21:42,120
Speaker 13: you know, can seem almost paralyzing, or that we're constantly

2412
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:46,520
Speaker 13: in a state of reaction. But one of the things

2413
02:21:46,560 --> 02:21:51,040
Speaker 13: that the revolution in Roseeve teaches us is that, first

2414
02:21:51,040 --> 02:21:54,279
Speaker 13: of all, that moments of crisis can also be moments

2415
02:21:54,320 --> 02:21:59,720
Speaker 13: of great transformation, but really only if we're prepared for them.

2416
02:22:00,120 --> 02:22:03,360
Speaker 13: And that's why, you know, whenever I talk about the

2417
02:22:03,440 --> 02:22:07,560
Speaker 13: Roji of a project, I feel it's important to remind

2418
02:22:07,680 --> 02:22:12,200
Speaker 13: people that it didn't just spring miraculously out of nowhere

2419
02:22:12,760 --> 02:22:16,039
Speaker 13: in the moment of the Syrian Civil War. The folks

2420
02:22:16,040 --> 02:22:18,840
Speaker 13: on the ground there had really been preparing for years,

2421
02:22:19,200 --> 02:22:22,840
Speaker 13: I mean decades, even for the opportunity that opened up

2422
02:22:22,920 --> 02:22:27,680
Speaker 13: for them during the Syrian Civil War. And in various ways,

2423
02:22:27,680 --> 02:22:30,600
Speaker 13: of course, they were educating themselves on radical history and

2424
02:22:31,080 --> 02:22:37,080
Speaker 13: particular understanding, you know, the failures of classical Marxism, Leninism,

2425
02:22:37,320 --> 02:22:40,840
Speaker 13: you know, which had been embraced previously by the PKK,

2426
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:46,640
Speaker 13: and putting also into practice clandestinely the kinds of grassroots

2427
02:22:47,080 --> 02:22:51,880
Speaker 13: democratic social structures that we see operating on the ground

2428
02:22:51,879 --> 02:22:54,840
Speaker 13: there today. So I think that that's one of the

2429
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:59,200
Speaker 13: lessons that we hear in the US can absorb that

2430
02:22:59,560 --> 02:23:03,240
Speaker 13: you know that we need to be able to exploit

2431
02:23:03,320 --> 02:23:07,080
Speaker 13: the crisis of legitimacy that's growing here today, thinking about

2432
02:23:07,600 --> 02:23:10,199
Speaker 13: what kind of alternatives we want to build and showing

2433
02:23:10,240 --> 02:23:15,720
Speaker 13: people that those alternatives exist, you know these Yeah, that,

2434
02:23:15,920 --> 02:23:19,160
Speaker 13: and you know that's includes engaging in a kind of

2435
02:23:19,240 --> 02:23:25,560
Speaker 13: prefigurative politics that really focuses on things like dual power,

2436
02:23:26,160 --> 02:23:32,160
Speaker 13: you know, cooperative economic project but also local assembly, democratic politics.

2437
02:23:32,440 --> 02:23:34,520
Speaker 13: So that's one of the things that I'm also really

2438
02:23:34,560 --> 02:23:38,760
Speaker 13: excited about talking about talking about as Arthur and I

2439
02:23:38,840 --> 02:23:43,039
Speaker 13: make our way from Seattle down to San Francisco and

2440
02:23:43,120 --> 02:23:48,400
Speaker 13: Oakland during the course of these six presentations and chats

2441
02:23:48,400 --> 02:23:52,240
Speaker 13: and talks and discussions that we're really excited about having

2442
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:55,120
Speaker 13: beginning next weekend.

2443
02:23:55,800 --> 02:23:58,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah. Let's let's let's provide people with a

2444
02:23:58,320 --> 02:24:00,959
Speaker 1: little bit of information on how, you know, they might

2445
02:24:01,000 --> 02:24:03,240
Speaker 1: be able to attend and take part in that. So

2446
02:24:04,120 --> 02:24:06,800
Speaker 1: what should folks look up and look into if they

2447
02:24:07,240 --> 02:24:09,240
Speaker 1: if they're interested in where are you guys going to be?

2448
02:24:10,560 --> 02:24:14,000
Speaker 14: Absolutely? Yeah, thanks. I think the best thing people can

2449
02:24:14,080 --> 02:24:18,200
Speaker 14: do is go to defend dot org. That's the website

2450
02:24:18,200 --> 02:24:21,960
Speaker 14: for the Emergency Committee for Roje our group. But right

2451
02:24:21,959 --> 02:24:24,320
Speaker 14: there the front page. You're going to see a poster

2452
02:24:24,480 --> 02:24:27,039
Speaker 14: for our tour that you can click on. It'll take

2453
02:24:27,080 --> 02:24:29,720
Speaker 14: you to links for all the different stops that we're

2454
02:24:29,720 --> 02:24:31,520
Speaker 14: going to do. We're going to be making our way

2455
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:34,680
Speaker 14: all the way from Bellingham, Washington, which is up near

2456
02:24:34,680 --> 02:24:37,879
Speaker 14: the border of Canada, down to the Bay Area, and

2457
02:24:37,920 --> 02:24:38,879
Speaker 14: you know, we really wish we.

2458
02:24:38,840 --> 02:24:40,480
Speaker 6: Could make more cities.

2459
02:24:40,520 --> 02:24:44,680
Speaker 14: There are a couple events that are our comrades and

2460
02:24:44,760 --> 02:24:48,439
Speaker 14: colleagues are organizing on the East Coast around the same timeframe,

2461
02:24:48,560 --> 02:24:51,000
Speaker 14: so be sure to look up the calendar on our website.

2462
02:24:51,400 --> 02:24:54,840
Speaker 6: But people can go to defend dot org to hear more.

2463
02:24:54,879 --> 02:24:58,000
Speaker 14: But the basic idea, like Debbie said, is we want

2464
02:24:58,000 --> 02:25:00,080
Speaker 14: to talk to people not only about what's going on

2465
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:02,640
Speaker 14: in Rogievo, why we think it matters how they can

2466
02:25:02,920 --> 02:25:06,680
Speaker 14: stand in solidarity, but we want to talk about what

2467
02:25:06,760 --> 02:25:09,080
Speaker 14: we're going to do in our own communities to take

2468
02:25:09,080 --> 02:25:12,520
Speaker 14: those lessons and to apply them to our own context.

2469
02:25:12,600 --> 02:25:15,480
Speaker 6: We want to help connect.

2470
02:25:15,040 --> 02:25:18,840
Speaker 14: People who are doing you know, real community organizing in

2471
02:25:19,600 --> 02:25:23,560
Speaker 14: local movements and to try to kind of inspire and

2472
02:25:23,600 --> 02:25:27,360
Speaker 14: strengthen what's already going on, rather than just to see

2473
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:31,360
Speaker 14: this as being strictly about Rocheva, because I mean, y'all

2474
02:25:31,360 --> 02:25:33,440
Speaker 14: probably were told the same thing. When when you're over

2475
02:25:33,440 --> 02:25:35,600
Speaker 14: there and you ask people what can we do to support,

2476
02:25:36,240 --> 02:25:38,400
Speaker 14: one of the things they'll tell you is you've got

2477
02:25:38,400 --> 02:25:42,160
Speaker 14: to organize the revolution at home. And that's on us,

2478
02:25:42,200 --> 02:25:45,480
Speaker 14: you know, it's a it's a it's easier said than done, right,

2479
02:25:45,560 --> 02:25:47,600
Speaker 14: And we're not saying we have all the answers, But

2480
02:25:47,680 --> 02:25:50,680
Speaker 14: what we do want to do is to invite local

2481
02:25:50,720 --> 02:25:55,000
Speaker 14: grassroots activists especially to come join the discussion and let's

2482
02:25:55,000 --> 02:25:58,039
Speaker 14: talk together about what it would mean to apply these

2483
02:25:58,080 --> 02:26:00,959
Speaker 14: basic principles, not to copy and payte then, but to

2484
02:26:01,080 --> 02:26:04,960
Speaker 14: apply these basic principles and lessons, principles of direct democracy,

2485
02:26:05,480 --> 02:26:09,640
Speaker 14: local autonomy, you know, cooperation, feminism. We haven't even talked

2486
02:26:09,680 --> 02:26:12,759
Speaker 14: about how central you know, gender liberation.

2487
02:26:12,440 --> 02:26:14,600
Speaker 6: Is to the Kurdish freedom movement. How do we apply

2488
02:26:14,640 --> 02:26:16,120
Speaker 6: these things in our own communities.

2489
02:26:16,360 --> 02:26:17,040
Speaker 12: Yeah.

2490
02:26:17,080 --> 02:26:18,880
Speaker 13: And one of the things, by the way, if people

2491
02:26:18,879 --> 02:26:22,440
Speaker 13: are interested in getting some more detail and a real

2492
02:26:22,560 --> 02:26:26,880
Speaker 13: inside look at what is going on in Rojaeven detail

2493
02:26:27,320 --> 02:26:32,760
Speaker 13: is that Arthur has two pieces in the magazine Strange Matters,

2494
02:26:32,840 --> 02:26:36,680
Speaker 13: which is also online, which are just terrific and they're

2495
02:26:36,720 --> 02:26:38,600
Speaker 13: part of a series that he's going to be doing

2496
02:26:38,720 --> 02:26:41,480
Speaker 13: i think monthly over the over the next few months,

2497
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:45,959
Speaker 13: and so that's some great background as well.

2498
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:48,920
Speaker 9: Aw shucks, Yeah, it's fantastic, Stev.

2499
02:26:49,640 --> 02:26:51,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, woe, thank you.

2500
02:26:51,959 --> 02:26:55,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Check that out obviously, folks if you're if you haven't,

2501
02:26:55,120 --> 02:26:57,400
Speaker 1: We've also got a podcast series, The Women's War, that

2502
02:26:58,040 --> 02:27:01,560
Speaker 1: covers the earlier history of the Rajavian Revolution up to

2503
02:27:01,600 --> 02:27:07,040
Speaker 1: about twenty nineteen, late twenty nineteen, which will cover quite

2504
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:10,840
Speaker 1: a bit of the impact that kind of this sort

2505
02:27:10,879 --> 02:27:14,520
Speaker 1: of feminist lens has had on what's happening over there

2506
02:27:14,560 --> 02:27:18,240
Speaker 1: and how it's actually persisted, you know, under the conditions

2507
02:27:18,520 --> 02:27:21,720
Speaker 1: that are really kind of almost impossibly challenging when you

2508
02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:23,840
Speaker 1: look at what these people are up against, which is

2509
02:27:23,879 --> 02:27:28,879
Speaker 1: part of again, I guess ultimately why, as we've repeatedly

2510
02:27:28,920 --> 02:27:31,000
Speaker 1: come back to, I think this is so important for

2511
02:27:31,080 --> 02:27:34,199
Speaker 1: people in the West to study as things get worse

2512
02:27:34,400 --> 02:27:36,680
Speaker 1: for a lot of folks here and as we attempt

2513
02:27:36,720 --> 02:27:42,200
Speaker 1: to arrest and take charge of the situation in our

2514
02:27:42,200 --> 02:27:44,280
Speaker 1: own lives. You know, we have all these questions about

2515
02:27:44,320 --> 02:27:47,600
Speaker 1: how do we stop our government from arming not just Turkey,

2516
02:27:47,640 --> 02:27:49,880
Speaker 1: but all of these regimes around the world that are

2517
02:27:49,879 --> 02:27:50,840
Speaker 1: doing such terrible things.

2518
02:27:50,879 --> 02:27:51,680
Speaker 5: How do we stop?

2519
02:27:51,760 --> 02:27:54,560
Speaker 1: How do we arrest you know, these problems that are

2520
02:27:54,600 --> 02:27:58,320
Speaker 1: continuing to affect you know, really ultimately, billions of people

2521
02:27:58,400 --> 02:28:02,920
Speaker 1: around the world's taking charge of our own lives, and

2522
02:28:02,959 --> 02:28:04,880
Speaker 1: the same way that these people have. It's kind of

2523
02:28:04,920 --> 02:28:09,560
Speaker 1: making that slogan of the Rejaban revolution, you know, resistance

2524
02:28:09,640 --> 02:28:13,680
Speaker 1: is life. Actually embracing that in a way that matters,

2525
02:28:13,920 --> 02:28:16,840
Speaker 1: and when you focus on sort of the challenges to

2526
02:28:17,040 --> 02:28:19,480
Speaker 1: like the sheer amount of work that has to be

2527
02:28:19,560 --> 02:28:22,680
Speaker 1: done here, the very primitive state of any kind of

2528
02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:27,520
Speaker 1: meaningful resistance, the relatively primitive state of organizing on the left,

2529
02:28:27,560 --> 02:28:30,520
Speaker 1: compared to, for example, the organizing that the right does

2530
02:28:30,560 --> 02:28:34,000
Speaker 1: in tandem with paramilitaries in the state. It can seem

2531
02:28:34,040 --> 02:28:39,720
Speaker 1: like an impossible challenge. But ten years on, the people

2532
02:28:39,800 --> 02:28:43,120
Speaker 1: in northeast Syria are still are still fighting, you know,

2533
02:28:43,360 --> 02:28:46,000
Speaker 1: and I think you have to. I think paying attention

2534
02:28:46,080 --> 02:28:49,640
Speaker 1: to that makes it clear that it is actually possible

2535
02:28:50,120 --> 02:28:50,480
Speaker 1: to win.

2536
02:28:51,360 --> 02:28:52,080
Speaker 6: So true.

2537
02:28:52,440 --> 02:28:54,680
Speaker 1: Well, I guess that's kind of it for us today.

2538
02:28:55,200 --> 02:28:58,440
Speaker 1: Is there anything else we want to plug? I just

2539
02:28:58,440 --> 02:29:00,160
Speaker 1: wanted to go out on a better note.

2540
02:29:00,640 --> 02:29:05,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm writing a piece for Kurdish Peace Institute. I'm

2541
02:29:05,320 --> 02:29:07,959
Speaker 4: manifesting this on the podcast, so I've actually write it

2542
02:29:08,320 --> 02:29:13,120
Speaker 4: about Mian Mah Kurdistan solidarity, which I think is cool.

2543
02:29:13,320 --> 02:29:14,400
Speaker 1: So like great topic.

2544
02:29:14,480 --> 02:29:18,320
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I don't think we have a lot of time,

2545
02:29:18,440 --> 02:29:21,680
Speaker 4: but I think that one thing that I've learned from

2546
02:29:22,280 --> 02:29:25,959
Speaker 4: the friends in Roche is that, like, even when you

2547
02:29:26,000 --> 02:29:28,720
Speaker 4: are going through difficulties, you can still stand in solidarity

2548
02:29:28,760 --> 02:29:31,280
Speaker 4: with other people. And God knows we're all going through

2549
02:29:31,280 --> 02:29:36,880
Speaker 4: difficulties in economic and political and state violence terms in

2550
02:29:36,920 --> 02:29:40,240
Speaker 4: this country, and I think that like one thing I

2551
02:29:40,280 --> 02:29:44,240
Speaker 4: really took from that was that it's never too hard

2552
02:29:44,240 --> 02:29:46,280
Speaker 4: for you to be in solidarity. And I hope that

2553
02:29:46,360 --> 02:29:50,400
Speaker 4: folks who are in this country will appreciate that and

2554
02:29:50,440 --> 02:29:52,920
Speaker 4: be in solidarity with people in Roche as well.

2555
02:29:54,879 --> 02:30:00,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely, well, Wie Arthur, thank you both so much for

2556
02:30:00,200 --> 02:30:02,800
Speaker 1: being here with us, and thank you for continuing to

2557
02:30:02,840 --> 02:30:05,280
Speaker 1: do the work that you do to keep this topic

2558
02:30:05,320 --> 02:30:07,080
Speaker 1: alive in people's hearts and minds.

2559
02:30:08,080 --> 02:30:09,160
Speaker 6: Thank you all so much.

2560
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Speaker 1: Yeah, always happy.

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02:30:11,120 --> 02:30:13,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, keep up the great work yourselves.

2562
02:30:13,840 --> 02:30:16,280
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, that's the episode. We will be back

2563
02:30:16,320 --> 02:30:18,440
Speaker 1: tomorrow unless this comes out on a Friday, in which

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02:30:18,440 --> 02:30:20,640
Speaker 1: case we might not be back tomorrow, but we'll be back,

2565
02:30:20,800 --> 02:30:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, Monday. You understand how this works at this point, right?

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02:30:29,400 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 12: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2567
02:30:32,000 --> 02:30:34,640
Speaker 12: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2568
02:30:34,720 --> 02:30:36,920
Speaker 12: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

2569
02:30:36,959 --> 02:30:40,360
Speaker 12: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2570
02:30:40,959 --> 02:30:43,080
Speaker 12: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated

2571
02:30:43,160 --> 02:30:47,199
Speaker 12: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.

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02:30:47,640 --> 02:30:50,800
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week

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02:30:50,840 --> 02:30:52,760
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.