WEBVTT - Part Three: Stonewall: The Criminal Queers Who Birthed a Movement 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:03.880 Hello, and welcome to cool people who did cool stuff. 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:05.960 You were twice a week reminder that when we fight, 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.240 we win, not always like win the fight itself, but 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.600 fighting is winning because it's refusing to be beaten down. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.079 That's what this podcast is about. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.680 and with me today is Shrine Unas. Yeah that's me, 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:27.840 Hi yay, and not with us today the producer Sophie. Sophie, 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.159 she is still very sick, and I hope she's feeling okay, 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:35.600 but yeah, yeah, she will be missed. But now we 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.080 can say anything we want. I know, like I can 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:45.479 finally tell everyone about the time that I and then 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.239 there were six of them and only three of us. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:52.479 But then and I don't know, I haven't been the 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:56.280 same since. Well, So thank you so much for telling 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.800 me that that's really vulnerable of you. I really appreciate 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.440 you opening up about the experience. And I'm the audience 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.080 knows now too, because I feel like they're going to 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.080 be so much closer to you, I know, and I 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:06.600 feel like it's like I've been meaning to get it 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:09.759 off my chest since the pocket, like it's important context. 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:15.800 So Ian is our audio engineer and our theme music 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.640 was written for us by an women and this week 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.440 we are continuing the story from last week, the story 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.200 of Stonewall. Well, in a lot of ways, we're telling 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.720 the story kind of around Stonewall, since the story of 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.520 Stonewall itself is fairly well known, although it's still worth 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.199 telling again. So I'll tell it too, but I highly 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.160 recommend you go back and not you sharing you you 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.840 were there, but anyone who hasn't heard it should go 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.200 back and listen to parts one and two. Margaret's right 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:44.880 because similar to most things in history, there's like a 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.240 singular event sometimes that gets so much attention, and knowing 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.720 all the other events that led up to that mountain 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.920 sometimes is really helpful because it's not just like one 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.640 day it changed, right, And I think it's really helpful 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.800 to know everyone else the fall so hard before the 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.560 big event that's in your history books, I guess you know. Yeah. 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.560 Plus you get to hear about someone with a parrot 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.920 beating up NIVB Yes, and a cheetah right or leopard 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.880 leopard Yeah, I like to think that leopard fucked some 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.440 transphobes up. I mean, you have to go out with 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.760 the bang, I'm sure so yeah, I mean, like I 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:26.359 feel safer with my forty pound dog near me. Imagine 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.480 how much safer you feel as a trans person when 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.400 you're a fucking leopard invincible. Yeah, that should that should 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:38.080 be like band guns, legalized leopards. That's my take, leopards 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.160 for queers. Yes, exactly. So now that we've sort of 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.840 set the scene, not with the talking about leopards, but 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.680 you know, the larger thing. We haven't set New York scene, 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.079 but we've set the scene LGBT shit in the US 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.040 in the fifties and sixties. And I know that every 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.760 city is like unique and beautiful and cool, but like 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:58.760 in the broadest sense of New York City was one 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.000 of the other major cities during all this What I'm 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:02.959 trying to say is the New York City is extra 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.440 unique and cool. Social oppression pushed more and more queers 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.480 into big cities during all this time, right, and to 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.800 go back to like the twenties and shit prohibition meant 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.320 that since bars were illegal anyway, all the illegal shit 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.880 tends to hang out together. So gayness was more present 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.880 overall in the drinking culture in New York because all 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.880 the bars are illegal. So it makes sense what's one 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.280 more illegal thing? Yeah, and so we're going to start 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:34.280 today with Okay, not the like showiest person, but like 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:38.800 probably my favorite person. Wow, from all of this, Eva 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:45.320 could more favorite than Frank Frankton. Shit, poor guy, he's 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.960 wanting to be an astronomer. I just feel for that 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:54.960 when someone some peaceful marches. Yeah he tried, you tried, Yeah, 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:59.720 Eva Cotchever, or, as he's often remembered, Eve Adams. She 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.480 is a Jewish lesbian anarchist who moved from Poland to 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:07.240 New York in nineteen twelve. She spoke seven fucking languages. Well, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.240 and I think she moved with her partner, but I'm 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:11.960 not one hundred percent certain on that. I read one 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.320 thing that said that she did, and soon enough. Her 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.520 job in the US, she's a traveling like door to 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.640 door salesperson, saleswoman who sells anarchist magazines. This is in 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:26.920 the sixties, no, the nineteen twenties, twenty okay, sorry sorry, yeah, yeah, no, no, 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.680 it's okay, So in the nineteen twenties and the nineteen 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:33.400 tens actually, And when she first moves there, she's like 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.720 traveling around being like selling Emma Goldman's Mother Earth and 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:40.040 if you want to hear more about that, listened to 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.480 our episode on birth control pioneers. And so she's distributing 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.440 these like illegal underground newspapers and shit everywhere, probably in 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.839 a bunch of different languages I assume at least Yiddish 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.920 and English and a couple other. She goes to Chicago 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:53.280 for a while, she lives there for a while, and 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.480 she makes her living teaching Russian. So I guess that's 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.359 another one of her seven languages. Well, and she runs 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:01.680 a gay literary salon called the Gray Room. Wow, she 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.120 does a lot of six stuff. I want to be 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.800 a polygon and have a gray Room. Well, I know, 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:10.360 I know. That's like I always think about this whenever 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.760 people are like, what's yours? What if you could have 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.120 a superpower would it be? I don't want to fly. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.560 I want to be invisible. I want to know every 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.520 language in the world, and that would be the best superpower. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.000 Like I there are so many and there's no way 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.400 I could learn even like a handful of them in 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.920 my lifetime. Well enough, yeah, but that is the best superpower. 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.760 So all of the polygots out there, you're doing it right. 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.680 You're doing it right. Just I agree, And one of 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:38.800 my biggest frustrations is that, like I'm a jack of 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:42.240 all trades and I can't have a conversation in any 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.400 language but English. I can like read enough Spanish to 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.599 like not be fucked over, and if I'm inn like, 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.840 and I've like used Spanish as my like language in 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:55.120 other countries that aren't like Italy. In France, I get 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.000 around with my Spanish and stad of my English or whatever, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.240 but I don't speak it well enough. And I'm so 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.000 good at learning shit, and I'm so bad at learning languages. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.719 So much I know and so like just so much 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.640 respect for everyone who puts in net work and like 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.120 So from nineteen twenty one to nineteen twenty three, she 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.479 lives in Chicago and she runs the gay literary salam 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.719 The Gray Room, And then she moves back to New 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.840 York and she publishes a book. She's really subtle about 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:27.320 what she's about. The book is called Lesbian Love Wow Wow. Yeah, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.160 not subtle. Anarchists are not known for being shy about 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.799 Her name is Eve too, Like it's so so ironic. 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:37.440 Her name is Eve. I love it, yeah totally. So. 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.560 In nineteen twenty five, she opens what might be the 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.440 first lesbian bar or even gay bar in the United States. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.640 There's a lot of people being like, oh, the first bar, 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:49.479 or these bars like one in New Orleans and I 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:50.880 think one in the Bay or whatever. But those are 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.560 in the thirties, and I think that what is happening 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.320 here is that people aren't counting prohibition era ones because 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.320 they speakeasies, so they're not like legal bars. I don't 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.040 fucking care what's legal. Yeah, it's all made up, yeah, exactly. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:11.400 It is completely unrelated to what's ethical. Um. So she 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:13.320 opens what might be the first gay bar in the 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.320 United States, and it's called Eve's Hangout or Eve Adams's 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.800 Tea Room. Adams two is great, what a great name. 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:25.680 Oh my god, Yes, I know, I know she spells 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.800 her name at least in this context with two d's, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:33.040 So Adams like the Adams family. This is the second 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:38.080 anarchist queer connection to the Adams family that I've made. 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.559 We talked about in the episode up about Up against 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.520 the Wall, motherfuckers, But the woman who played Granny Adams 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:47.240 in the nineteen ninety one one was a queer anarchist 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:51.640 pacifist m wow, like theater person from a connection from 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.840 the nineteen sixties. Who was a good connections Yeah, who 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:57.080 was a big part of inspiring a lot of the 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.280 subcultural shit that the hippies did through the up against 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.640 the wall motherfuckers. Wow, yeah, that's so cool. I know 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:06.840 Adam's family secretly like why I actually always thought they 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.120 were cool, but secretly like anarchists too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.160 And so an Eva gets called the Queen of the 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.520 third sex because the third sex was yet another way 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:20.040 of describing gay folks at the time. I see that 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:24.040 all more time, the third sex, the third sex, Yeah, 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.400 was a way that people would talk about there's like 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:32.480 men women in gays interesting, m Yeah, and it's one day. 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:34.960 I don't know. When I do more of a nineteenth 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:39.160 century homosexuality episode will like dive more into and I 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.760 will know more about exactly how third sex relates to yah, 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.640 homophile and all of these other things that are going on. Yeah. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.760 So they didn't mean it, but it's biological sex. Obviously 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:52.040 they made it more like like what did they what 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.760 does what does they mean by sex? Back then? So 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.800 I don't This is the part I don't totally get, 0:08:56.880 --> 0:08:59.600 but I'm under the impression by third sex they meant 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:04.320 like kind of like, yeah, third sexuality interesting, but also 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.199 I think that they kind of understood it as this 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.720 like in it thing, this like part thing that's part 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:11.960 of you, so it's also a thing that you like. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:15.120 It's basically if you're if you can be bored with 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.960 the sex of a woman, you can be born the 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.320 third sex too, So that's kind of like I think, 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.480 so not too bad. No, and the third sex was 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.120 not a pejorative. I believe. I believe it was used 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:32.520 by um, by the gay movement. That's cool. Yeah, No, 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.480 it's gonna be really funny when one hundred years from 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:38.839 now people are like, and this podcast host she was 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.439 a transgender woman, which is I know it sounds kind 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.960 of fucked up to say, but you have to understand 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.760 in twenty twenty three, you know, like, because the way 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.679 that we think about sex and gender is constantly changing. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.720 And that's totally fucking fine. That's so true. It's so true. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:55.640 Um just kidding this time we got it right and 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.480 everyone else is wrong. So um. Yeah, this club, it's 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.120 definitely ten years earlier than Mona's for forty club in 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.520 San Francisco, which is open in nineteen thirty six. And 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.920 gets called the first lesbian bar. It depends on definitions. 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.640 This one also in a lot of ways, it was 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.439 less of a bar. It was almost certainly a speakeasy. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:19.960 Most tea rooms were coded as we're just speakeasies, And 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.480 it's usually described as a speakeasy. But it's more of 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.320 an event space, and it's like a place to go 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.080 to poetry discussions and shit than it is to get 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.880 drunken dance. Love that. Yeah, I know, i'd like actually 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.120 do a way better at this. I mean I would rather. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.640 I mean I always say I'm not a big drinker 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.800 or bar person, but just put me into like a 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:41.280 tea room or poetry place, like that's the ship. You know, 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:43.400 that should be more normalized. I really think about that 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.160 every time. That's seldom times I have to go out. 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.440 I just want to go to a bookstore and drink 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.480 some tea. That should be normalized. I don't need to 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.520 go to a freaking bar and pretend to like alcohol. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.840 I agree. And so there's this sign up at this bar. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.400 Maybe probably not, but historically this is the story. It's 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.360 probably apocryphal, which is sad because sometimes our enemies make 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.120 up the coolest things about us. You know, this was 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.240 like yeah, like like the lavender lads. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.600 And in this case, the news articles that were like 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.200 condemning this place claim that there's a sign up at 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.320 the bar that says men are admitted but not welcome. 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.160 Thank you. Yeah, you know, we rule. Do they work 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.400 for us? I know? Yeah. The same source that claims 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.360 the sign existed was a nineteen twenty six article in Variety, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:36.480 and it basically the rest of the article is like, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.280 this place is an evil sex den where Mannish women 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:43.080 prey on our innocent girls. So she runs a cool 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.360 lesbian bar, an important social center for New York's bohemian 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.400 scene and for immigrants and lesbians and working class intellectuals. 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.960 It's a popular after theater club. A lot of the 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.560 big writers at the time, Henry Miller and Nias Ninn, 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.160 all those people are hanging out at this place. But 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.800 then an NYPD vice squad kind of killed her in 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:09.200 a roundabout way, in a roundabout way. But I blame 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.439 the vice squad for her death because she was a 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.920 Jewish lesbian anarchist, right, And that is literally three Nazi 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.320 death sentences. Yeah, each one of those is enough to 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.880 die from the Nazi point of view, and so some 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.480 piece of shit undercover woman cop not the only time 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.200 that a woman lesbian cop is going to come up 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.440 bad in the stories. This week, she goes into the 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.200 place and she declares it a den of sin or whatever. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.640 Like theoretically, is a couple different ways of stories heard 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.520 like either like Eva's like, yo, check out my book 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.760 Lesbian Love, What's up? Or the cop like goes on 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:45.480 this like elaborate date with her and like goes with 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:47.080 her to hotel and shit, And I've no idea if 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.760 they bang either way. At the end of it, because 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:53.120 Eva like possibly might have hit on this cop, she's 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.360 arrested for obscenity and she's deported from the United States 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.240 to Portland and so I po poland even worse, um 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.520 well at the time in nineteen twenty seven, she's deported 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.640 to Poland. Oh shit, and she she gets by for 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.120 a while. She she moves to Paris. She makes her 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:14.439 money selling naughty books to American tourists, which rules, yeah, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:17.280 it's possible. I read like one line that claimed, but 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.080 with no further information, that she went to Spain to 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.960 throw down in that whole Spanish Civil War thing. That. 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.559 You can listen to me talking too about with Jamie 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.719 Loftus if you want to hear more about that. Yea. 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:30.960 Then came back to Paris after that whole thing fell, 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.319 and then she tried to get out of Europe, right 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.560 because she's a it's a really bad time to be 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.679 a three strikes girl, right, and the US won't let 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.400 her in and she couldn't raise enough money to get 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.800 herself to Palestine, which is like, you know, the only 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.640 other place to try and get herself as a Jew. 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:49.959 Her and her partner were arrested by the Nazis in 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:55.000 nineteen forty three and they both died Noschwitz. Well, so 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:59.079 I blame that fucking cop straight up who went in 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.280 and then trapped her. God, that just really proves to 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.560 show that you can be anything. You can be. You 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.280 can be a woman, you can be gay, you can 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.880 be black. If you're a cop, that trumps everything in 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:12.360 my opinion, you know what I mean, Like it doesn't 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:17.000 matter how like marginalized you are if you choose to 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.920 be a cop. To me, that that trumps everything because 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.680 that happens, yeah, because you've you've chosen what position you 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:28.280 want to have in the systems. Of oppression and power. Yeah, exactly. 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:32.880 Well that's so fucked up. Yeah, she looks have been 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:37.560 pretty young too, right like she I think she was 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.680 in her forties when she does, I know, I know, 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:48.280 but it's yeah, god, that's so that's tragic. Well I'm glad. Yeah, 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:52.040 she had a good run. Yeah, that's cool. Do you 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.000 think she's Do you think her bar was not considered 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:56.160 the first bar because it wasn't legal back then and 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.880 was the first bar that you mentioned, Like, that's considered 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.400 the first bar after prohibition ended. Okay, so that's my 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.080 best guests as to why these ones don't count, because 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:07.400 I assume there were other ones. Actually there's even another 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:12.600 literally the stone Wall in was well we'll get to that, okay, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:18.000 a little nugget so spoiling. Yeah, yeah, totally. But after 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.000 the war, New York City stays pretty gay. Even though 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.680 they had their mini lavender scare, you know, where they've 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.720 fired the gay teachers or whatever, it stays pretty gay, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.360 much like San Francisco. The gay beats were a big 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:31.120 part of this, you know, like some of like New 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.760 York's cultural icons were like writing about how they have 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.240 gay sex and it rules, you know. William burrows and 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.400 shit like that. So the government does it's government thing, 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:43.080 and it starts in trapping well, I don't know if 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.400 it's started, but at this time it's in trapping gay 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.520 men and blackmailing them. It cracks down on gay people 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:52.160 drinking or existing in public. The liquor board starts pulling 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.640 licenses away from any business that might become disorderly. And 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:58.560 I'm putting scare quotes around that. Basically any bar that 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:00.160 is like known to be a gay bar and have 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.280 its liquor license pulled because that accounts as disorderly and so. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.200 And there's all of these different laws at different times 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.640 that are like get kind of conflated to each other. 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:11.840 And I don't totally understand the timeline, but there were 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:13.520 laws like you're not allowed to be a woman who 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.840 drinks in public, you're not allowed to be a gay 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.040 person who you're not allowed to serve alcohol to gay people. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.040 But sometimes these things that people say like oh, this 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.240 was the law, it's actually this was what the police enforced, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:31.960 not a specific code. Of course, that's that makes sense. 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:37.320 That still happens today, Like what's yeah, well, yeah, that's 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.360 so absurd. So if there's no legal way for gay 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.680 folks to gather. Then they all just stop pink gay 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.480 and become heterosexual and happen. No, just kidding, they drink illegally, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:55.760 enter the mafia. Oh I'm interested in this. So the 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.400 Geneva se family is the crime family is the oldest 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.920 and largest of the quote five families of organized crime 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.120 of New York City. And they're this Italian American mafia group. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.359 They're still around. Um oh were they called the ken 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.520 Jenova essay? Um? I might be pronouncing that last name 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:16.560 for mafia, I know. And they're like the fucking if 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.840 you think of the Italian mafia in New York, Like, 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.600 there's several other ones, but this one's the big, biggest one. Yeah, okay, 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.680 So like the Sopranos, this is like, yeah, there are 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.520 literally two people named fat Tony in this story. Well 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.159 that's that's amazing. Yeah, that's how you know they're the 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.880 top dog mafia. He thought just one, there's two fat 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:40.879 Yeah exactly. And so they do crime stuff, heroin dealing, gambling, rigging, 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.879 boxing matches, all that shit, running legal bars during prohibition 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.959 and after prohibition. And they are like more complicated morally 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:50.639 than I can easily get into one day, we'll do 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.520 an episode about how the mafia and the US government 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.640 like work together to fight fascism or whatever. Oh yeah, 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:00.000 you gotta teach me about that suit. Yeah, I'm I'm 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.679 I'm excited to learn more about it. There's this Jewish 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:08.720 gangster named Meyer Lanski who like organized mafia Jews to 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.520 go beat up Nazis in the US with like crowbars 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:15.360 and shit. Why do we learn about that stuff? That's 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.480 what I fucking that's right. Interested in fucking history with 0:18:18.840 --> 0:18:22.159 gold Rush or whatever? The ship? Yeah, yeah, totally. And 0:18:22.280 --> 0:18:23.680 if you get tell the story of the gold Rush, 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.439 you need to tell the story of all the like 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.840 gay lesbian prostitutes who like fucking make all their money 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.679 and like run their own bars and like don't have 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:36.040 pimps because you know, like yeah, another So we'll get 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:37.520 to I need to look that up as soon as 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:42.280 we're done. But that sounds incredible, and you're right, you're right. Yeah. Overall, 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:43.920 I'm not a big fan of the mafia or whatever, 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.520 but we all got to accept everything's complicated in the 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.000 in the fifties and the sixties at least, and I 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.480 think actually earlier than that, the mafia is running the 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.800 gay bars in New York. Mostly they do it for money. 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.520 They can charge a ton for water down, bootleg, homemade, stolen, 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.359 et cetera, liquor the radically at the Stonewall there was 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.159 like literally not a drink that wasn't watered down. I 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.359 read one thing that was like, if you knew the 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:08.600 right people, they'd go out back and get the like 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:10.399 they'd have like the bottles of liquor, and they'd be 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.439 like labeled, but it would all be lies, you know, 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:14.720 and they like really liked you, they go out back 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.480 and get the real I don't know enough about liquor 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:18.960 to give you an example of a compliment fancy liquor. 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.520 And also by running gay bars, they can extort anyone 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.439 who fucks with them because the customers are gay, and 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.560 gay people are easy to extort in a time of 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.080 shame and you know, cry or it's illegal to be gay, 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:36.200 they're easy targets for sure. Yeah. The mafia gets away 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.400 with this by paying off the cops. What gets called 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:43.320 gayola instead of payola. Wait really yeah, at least at 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.720 the time I think it was called gayola. Yeah that's 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.080 pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And they pay the 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.800 cops a fucking ton of money. Stonewall was paying the 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.600 cops two thousand dollars a week, which is more than 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:01.200 sixteen thousand dollars in today's money. WHOA, that's a that's 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.160 a fat sum. That is a fat sum of money. 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.560 And how was that was possible through the mafia? The 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.080 mafia was. Yeah, it was the money that the mafia 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:15.080 is making both off of the overpriced drinks, but also 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.040 they were like running other crimes out of the establishment, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.520 mostly drug dealing. There's arguments about the level of sex 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.800 work that was happening at the at Stone Wall, but yeah, basically, 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:29.600 by selling overpriced drinks to gay people, they have to 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.120 turn around and pay sixty five thousand dollars a month 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.160 in modern money. Oh well, which adds so much money, 0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:39.240 I know, it's almost it's three quarters of a million 0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:44.160 dollars a year. Well, and after paying the cops so 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:47.359 much fucking money, the cops still raid the mafia bars 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:50.119 because they have to keep up appearances or whatever. And 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.040 also the mafia people don't care if they fuck with 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.119 some of the gay people, but they do it on 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.359 week nights, they do it early in the night and 0:20:56.520 --> 0:20:58.400 usually they and they give a tip ahead of time 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:01.680 to the bartenders so they'll like get most liquor out 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:03.920 or like kind of give heads up to the customers. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.119 They actually like like, hey, at seven pm today, you 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.800 don't want to be here, you know, and cops would 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.159 raid and they would like there's a lot of different 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.040 accounts of these types of raids, but usually basically it's 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:18.440 like they show up and like make sure you're wearing 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.160 gender appropriate clothing is like a huge one. And who 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.480 decides that just like skirts and pants that's no whatever. Well, 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.240 well no, and actually this is important because the thing 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.280 that people talk about is they say that there was 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:33.919 a law at the time that said you have to 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:38.639 have three articles of clothing that matched ther your ID marker, 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:42.920 Like you're on your idea. It probably wasn't a law. 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.600 It was probably the rule that the cops used. And 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:48.880 we'll get into some of the things that people did 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.399 to work around that. But yeah, so you mean like 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.560 three arcis of cloth if if it said, like, oh, 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:55.760 I'm a woman, I have to have three articles of 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.600 clothing that proved I was a woman, like quote unquote 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:03.719 proved Yeah, Like like who just that's so interesting to know, 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.119 like what's on each list, I wonder, Yeah, no, and 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:11.760 they will literally like m fondle your genitals and like 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.640 you know, expose you to everyone, and like they will 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:19.199 like you know, and they'll take people to jail over it, 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.960 and like you know, it's obviously never nice to be 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:23.800 in jail, and it's like extra not nice to be 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.720 a gay man in jail, and like you know, just 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.280 about one violation after the other after the other. Yeah. 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:32.879 And we'll talk about this a little bit more too later. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:37.240 But and the cops did it because no one stopped them, 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:41.240 like they kind of like literally cops from this period. 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.080 We'll talk about how gay folks were like easy marks, 0:22:44.680 --> 0:22:46.960 you know, because they were like ashamed and beaten down. 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:52.640 So Stonewall in it was originally called Bonnie's Stonewall with 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.760 A and stonewall was two words, and it was opened 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.800 in nineteen thirty and it claimed to be a tea room, 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.359 but it was a speakeasy. And I've read accounts to 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:05.040 say it was heterosexual. And I've also read accounts that 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.159 it was named after a lesbian's autobiography called the Stone 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.320 Wall from like the nineteenth century, And so I'm guessing 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.880 it started off as a lesbian bar, and it wasn't 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.360 too straight, and people just like to ignore lesbian's that's 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.320 my best guess, right, Yeah, that sounds about right. And 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.560 it might have eventually just stopped being a gay bar 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:25.840 before for a while, I don't know. In nineteen thirty 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.399 four it moved to Christopher Street, where it more famously is. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:33.200 In nineteen sixty four it was the interior was destroyed 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.000 by flames and it closed down. But do you know 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:46.679 what will make you flame proof? Responsored by fiberglass walls. 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:47.879 That's a that's a great How did you How did 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.920 you land that one? That's that's pretty good. That's pretty yeah. Thanks. 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:57.000 I'm a professional podcaster. They teach you at podcasting Academy 0:23:57.160 --> 0:24:00.800 how to do awkward ad transitions and try to make 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:05.560 them funny. Thank you, thank you. Well, actually a stone 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:10.480 wall would make you more fire resistant. You're not wrong. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:15.160 So if the next year's ad is for a masonry company, 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.080 then it's the right one. And if it's not, you 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:22.120 should complain to Sophie. That would make me believe in God, 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:30.760 I think, and we're back. I hope you enjoyed the 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:36.240 ad for all of the bricks and brick related services, only, 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.440 of course, for making things more fire resistant, not proving 0:24:40.480 --> 0:24:44.160 that cops can't fuck with you easily. It's not like 0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.440 all of our rights that anyone has ever had started 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:51.720 with someone throwing bricks at cops. No, of course not. 0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:56.240 But also for the folks that did the right thing. 0:24:56.280 --> 0:25:00.399 And listen to the first two episodes, the progress from 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:05.080 donuts to brick is incredible to me. Yeah, yeah, totally, 0:25:05.160 --> 0:25:11.080 like that's just again chef's kiss for all that. Yeah. 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:16.360 So the place burns, the interior is gutted in flames, 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.639 and it's destroyed, and it closes. Two years later, in 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:24.040 nineteen sixty six, the mafia bought it. Three mafia guys 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.560 bought it and turned it into a gay bar. And 0:25:26.600 --> 0:25:29.800 they did. They phoned this in. They spent like a 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:32.960 couple thousand dollars repairing the place and covering up the damage. 0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:36.879 Mostly they just painted it black and kept it dimly lit, 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:43.480 so just like like just concealed with darkness the damage. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:48.080 They didn't bother plumbing it. There was no running water 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:51.600 behind the bar. There was running water in the bathrooms. Okay, 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.919 let's good at least, so they kept the glasses in 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:57.480 a big tub of water and gave each one a 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:01.360 little rinsey rinse in the same gross tub. God um 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:07.560 before serving it to someone else. Damn. Yeah, just think 0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:12.159 of it in COVID times. Let's just I wonder how 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:14.320 many people got sick? Well, no, I don't want to 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:17.040 think about it. Well, yeah, I'm gonna tell you anyway. 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:20.159 I'm sorry. This was blamed in a gay newsletter at 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:22.639 the time for a nineteen sixty nine outbreak of hepatitis 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:25.320 among gay men in New York City. Oh my god. 0:26:26.000 --> 0:26:28.439 It was three mafia guys who bought the place. And 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.280 it wasn't uncontentious that they decided to do this. I mean, 0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:35.439 game mafia people did own gay bars, but it was 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:38.040 still like a little Well, let's talk about fat Tony. 0:26:40.200 --> 0:26:44.439 Fat Tony number primary, Okay, okay, number primary. That's a number. 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:47.200 The controlling interest was held by this guy named Tony 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.880 Lareya or Fat Tony. He was a very large man. 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.440 He weighed like, you know, four hundred some pounds. Wouldn't 0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.000 it be funny? I just realized how funny it would 0:26:57.000 --> 0:26:59.800 be if Fat Tony was not fat I know, right, yeah, 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:05.040 another level of yeah yeah, or maybe they felt pressure 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:08.200 being named Tony to be fat yet it might have 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:11.320 been you know, I don't know. It can go either way. Yeah, 0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:13.960 more power to you, whatever size you want to be 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.399 with any name you want. But his dad was not 0:27:17.520 --> 0:27:19.680 so excited about him. His dad, who was a mafia guy, 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:21.800 was not excited about him hanging out with the gays. 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:25.920 Fat Tony's roommate was an openly gay Italian guy who 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:28.760 bartended at Stonewall and he was the guy who was 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:32.680 trusted to move the money around. I haven't heard him 0:27:32.680 --> 0:27:36.520 referred to as mafia, but he lived with Fat Tony 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:39.399 was Italian, bartended the mafia bar and was the one 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.879 who was trusted to move the money around at the 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.080 very least. He's like a middleman. Yeah whatever, like and 0:27:45.119 --> 0:27:46.680 because like one of the things is that people want 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:49.679 to people want to downplay the mafia connection with Stonewall 0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:55.120 because they want to kind of whitewash our history. But so, 0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:57.240 because of fear of raids and such, the money was 0:27:57.240 --> 0:27:59.719 carried home from the bar several nights a week, several 0:28:00.200 --> 0:28:03.480 several times a night. Sorry, like you know, because the 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:05.160 cops are going to comment and still all fucking money 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:08.160 because they're just I mean, these are basically just two 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:10.840 crime organizations, the NYPD in the mafia, just trying to 0:28:10.880 --> 0:28:14.320 figure out delicate balance together. But Fat Tony he got 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:18.359 very into the culture. He started shooting I know, okay, 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:20.560 he started doing two things. He started shooting meth and 0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:23.440 he started fucking dudes. But not as roommate. That was 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:26.320 a very important point in the book. I was reading, Um, 0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:31.240 they stayed platonic, him and him and his roommate. Interesting 0:28:31.320 --> 0:28:34.880 that that was. Yeah, it was a important thing to note. 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.000 I mean, it's nice to know that friendships French ship withstood, 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:42.120 you know, yeah, totally, and like, I don't know, actually 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:43.840 a weird way. It is like important, and I'll be like, 0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:45.960 whoa gay people to just be friends with each other, 0:28:46.120 --> 0:28:50.400 you know exactly. Yeah, yeah, there's like a level of like, oh, 0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:53.840 like I respect you, and yeah, even though I'm doing 0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:57.479 gay things now, I still respect you. Yeah, totally totally. 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:00.560 Fat Tony's story is kind of tragic. A little while, 0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:03.440 I got really confused because there is another fat Tony 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.960 who rises really high and prominence in the family and 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:08.800 lives a long and healthy life, and so I was like, yeay, 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:14.200 our Tony's doing good, not our Tony. His family stopped 0:29:14.200 --> 0:29:17.240 talking to him as a result of him being gay, 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:19.480 or him doing drugs, or some combination of the both, 0:29:19.920 --> 0:29:25.880 and the rumor is eventually that his family killed him. No, Tony, Yeah, 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:28.720 and I don't know. Once again, it's like when you're 0:29:28.760 --> 0:29:32.480 a dead gay mobster, it's hard to know whether you 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:34.760 get killed for being gay or for being a mobster 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:39.960 or what. You know, Damn, this happens. His death happens 0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.720 after all the events of today. Okay, but I think 0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.240 his story matters because people talk about the mafia is 0:29:46.240 --> 0:29:48.800 this opportunistic thing that was ripping off gay folks. But 0:29:48.880 --> 0:29:50.920 the thing that people need to remember about any story 0:29:50.920 --> 0:29:55.960 about anything that has to do with sexual sexuality. We're everywhere, 0:29:58.000 --> 0:30:02.600 like pick a profession and there's gays doing it. Yeah, 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.640 you know, um for good and bad. He wasn't the 0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:10.560 only game mobster in the New York scene. Big Bobby 0:30:10.760 --> 0:30:14.920 who worked the door next Big Bobby, These are great names. 0:30:16.560 --> 0:30:19.320 Big Bobby worked the door at a place called Tony Pastors. 0:30:21.520 --> 0:30:24.080 He was in love with a Chinese drag queen named 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:28.880 Tony Lee. Everyone is fucking named Tony. You want to 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:32.880 say Tony, every bar, every person all Tony's all the 0:30:32.880 --> 0:30:36.920 way down. It's so funny. Isn't Tony correct wrong? Isn't 0:30:36.920 --> 0:30:39.600 it like short for Anthony? Or is that not? I 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:48.160 think so? Or yeah maybe I think yeah, yeah, that's interesting. 0:30:48.400 --> 0:30:51.320 Tony is a wow. What a name? What a name? 0:30:51.960 --> 0:30:56.080 I know. So everyone's named Tony except for a freelance 0:30:56.120 --> 0:31:02.320 circulating bouncer named Pete. And Pete was the most exaggerated 0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:07.800 cliche archetypical Italian mobster who wore black shirts and ties. 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:11.920 He exaggerated his like Italian accent, which I saw referred 0:31:11.920 --> 0:31:14.680 to as a street Italian accent, which made me realize 0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:16.800 that the Italian accents of New York City are not 0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:21.120 necessarily I'm from Italy Italian. It's like Italian American accent 0:31:21.160 --> 0:31:24.160 that is a New York accent. You know. Pete was what, 0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:26.520 at least in the nineties, we called a two beer 0:31:26.600 --> 0:31:30.239 queer because he was a straight man who would then 0:31:30.280 --> 0:31:35.400 get drunk, and he slept with both gay men and queens, 0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:37.240 which were sort of seen as two different sort of 0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:39.200 genders of people to sleep with in a lot of ways, 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:42.080 much like you would now when we say queens, we're 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:44.000 talking about drag queens, but we were talking about a 0:31:44.040 --> 0:31:47.320 culture in which drag queen, trans vestite and trans women 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.880 are very um. There is a spectrum there, and it 0:31:51.000 --> 0:31:55.560 is a spectrum that people are often moving around inside of. Yeah, 0:31:55.600 --> 0:31:58.000 and like a lot of the queens would later come 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:00.160 out as trans women once. The sort of way we 0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.120 talked about these things changed, but not all of them 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.520 right And for a long time Pete was sweet. He 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:08.920 would get his partners better jobs and shit with all 0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:12.560 his connections. Later he runs off out of the city 0:32:12.600 --> 0:32:14.440 with a queen and they lived as a heck couple 0:32:15.240 --> 0:32:20.560 until he freaked out and killed her. No, yeah, it 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:25.400 pet which is why trans women have trust issues to 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:30.760 say yeah, to say the least, wow that pet Yeah. 0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:32.880 It's also just weird that this guy saying Pete, I 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:37.520 can feel like, seriously, you know what, you'd have to 0:32:37.560 --> 0:32:44.000 take him seriously. That's kind of crime guy. Yeah. And 0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:46.160 I also think it's telling that some of the power 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:49.480 players in early gay history were either revolutionists like the 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:52.160 lesbian anarchists who opened the first bar or the gay 0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:55.320 communist who set up the first organization, or they were 0:32:55.320 --> 0:32:58.080 professional criminals like Tommy the lesbian of Fedora and a 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:00.960 Bar in San Francisco or Poor Fatony in New York. 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:05.400 So Stonewall, let's talk about Stonewall it self. Okay, it's 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:08.480 big standout feature versus all of the other gay bars, 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:10.400 including the crime bars. While all the gay bars were 0:33:10.440 --> 0:33:14.479 crime bars, it allowed dancing. It allowed same sex dancing. 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:18.040 All the other gay bars no same sex dancing, um, 0:33:19.000 --> 0:33:23.080 because that was for fear of like like a police action, yeah, 0:33:23.160 --> 0:33:26.880 getting shut down, getting alled at and all this shit. Um. 0:33:27.000 --> 0:33:29.720 Within Stonewall, there were two dance rooms. One was called 0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:31.680 the White Room and one was called the Black Room 0:33:31.720 --> 0:33:34.920 in a bad way. Um, so like segregated, segregated way, 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:40.480 so yes, but with like a little asterisk or something 0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:42.440 to make it really obvious as a race thing. The 0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:45.720 black room is also called the Puerto Rican Room. Okay, 0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:49.960 both both rooms are painted black because they're hiring fire damage. 0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:54.200 But it wasn't formally segregated. It was kind of culturally segregated, 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:57.760 and it was culturally segregated along race lines. But even 0:33:57.840 --> 0:34:00.120 more than that, at least as it's been presented it 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:02.760 as I see it, as I've seen it, it's segregated 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:06.040 between like different like vibes, where like the white room 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:09.360 was like couples dancing mostly, and the black room was 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.560 like everyone trying out the new big group dances and 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:18.680 all the devil Yeah, like I'm being monogamous and normal 0:34:18.880 --> 0:34:23.640 versus like I'm going to be a devil today. Yeah exactly, 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:29.360 And so yeah, whatever the latest dance craze was happening 0:34:29.400 --> 0:34:32.279 in the black room and then the white room I'm 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:35.320 standing or whatever, and it and the white room skewed older, 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:40.480 it's skewed more cusgendered, it scwed whiter. And I don't 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:42.400 know that these were official names or these were like 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:44.960 what people just called them. There's a lot of different 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:48.560 reports about the clientele because everyone wants to own Stonewall 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:53.560 because it fucking what happens here rules, right, And everyone 0:34:53.640 --> 0:34:58.200 like argues about Stonewall because yeah, because they want to 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:01.760 own it. Um. Yeah, it seems likely that the clientele 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:04.799 shifted over time and was constantly in flux. It was 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:09.040 almost exclusively gay men and or people assigned mail at birth, 0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:11.719 but gay women started showing up too. The way I've 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:15.520 heard it said is that it started off all men, 0:35:15.760 --> 0:35:17.799 and then they started letting in women, and then they 0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:21.520 started letting in drag queens. Okay, and there were exceptions 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:23.600 all along to the drag queen thing, but like, for 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:25.080 the most part, if you showed up and you were 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:28.640 like in address, they'd turn you away because in order 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:30.160 to get in, you have to show up and there's 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:33.120 like this big, thick, fucking crazy door and there's a 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:35.160 gangster on the other side who's like looking through the 0:35:35.200 --> 0:35:38.040 people and like trying to figure out whether to let 0:35:38.040 --> 0:35:41.200 you in or not. You know, password, Yeah, it's like 0:35:41.239 --> 0:35:43.799 if he recognizes you from having been there before, he'll 0:35:43.880 --> 0:35:45.040 let you in. So you kind of kind of go 0:35:45.280 --> 0:35:47.080 your first time. You have to go with your friends 0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:52.279 who've been there before. But so eventually they start letting 0:35:52.320 --> 0:35:55.080 in people in full drag, but for the longest time 0:35:55.080 --> 0:35:59.200 they don't. And when women showed up and lesbian showed up, 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:02.160 they were kind of perceived, as I got told or 0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:05.600 as I read, they're perceived as like honored guests, so 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:08.440 it wasn't their space, but everyone was like, what the 0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:12.360 fuck was that lesbian doing in here? Instead everyone's like, 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:16.040 oh my god, you know that rules, thanks for coming, 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:19.000 you know. It was still kind of like also segregrade 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:22.520 in that way probably too, just like totally yeah, yeah, 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:24.600 I mean It's like, and if the point of the 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:26.880 bar is getting laid, then it sort of makes sense, 0:36:27.000 --> 0:36:29.040 right that lesbians go to the lesbian bar and the 0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:30.719 game I go to the gay bar. Yeah, that's true. 0:36:30.760 --> 0:36:35.000 It's true. It's true. That's true. But I mean I like, well, 0:36:35.719 --> 0:36:37.839 I mean, you know, it's complicated for me to fit 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:40.279 in and anywhere, but like, you know, I would like 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:43.600 us all just hanging out. But yeah, same. That's why 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.880 I like the word queer because and I yeah, I 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:49.719 mean too, I love the word queer totally. But also, 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:53.880 I mean when it's co mingled, if separately, it feels safe, 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:56.520 but commingled also feels safe too. Does that make sense? 0:36:56.560 --> 0:37:01.440 Like it's still not like like, uh, there's you're you're 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:07.480 amongst Yes, exactly exactly. So I feel like, yeah, yeah, 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:09.120 I mean it makes sense back then that maybe they 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:13.319 were like m for us only. Yeah. And so one 0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:16.839 of the main clientele at this place um at Stonewall 0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:21.160 was street queens, and street queens was a specific youth 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:24.560 subculture of homeless queer youth, most of whom many of 0:37:24.560 --> 0:37:26.799 whom all of them I don't know, did sex work. 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:29.279 A bunch of them lived in the park across the 0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:31.840 street and were protected by some of the older queers, 0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:34.480 one of whom will actually talk about. And this is 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:38.880 where a lot of the more famous characters around Stonewall 0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:44.160 come from this culture. But you know what culture you 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:56.080 can belong to buy consuming stuff capitalism, the culture capital yeay, 0:37:56.120 --> 0:38:00.480 everything's the same capital see for culture and capitalism. I 0:38:00.560 --> 0:38:04.480 know they come from the same root word. See that. 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:06.319 Yeah it's actually really true. I never thought of it 0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:09.719 that way. Yeah, yeah, I learned so much on this podcast. Yeah, 0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:14.120 true things, much like the True Deals. Here you go, 0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:21.400 ads and we are back. I'm talking about the street queens, 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:23.520 who I want to give their own episode one day probably, 0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:27.319 But I will say the podcast Queer as Fact did 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:29.759 an episode about Stonewall that's really worth listening to, and 0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:32.680 it talks more about the bar itself and the culture there, 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:34.440 and it draws from a bunch of firsthand accounts. So 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.399 if you want to hear people talking about like what 0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:40.480 their time was like at Stonewall, Queer as Fact is 0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:44.799 a fucking awesome podcast. And since amab folks assigned mail 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:47.719 at birth, folks weren't allowed to come in dresses, they'd 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:52.000 come in quote scare drag, which is a sick name. Yeah, 0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:56.160 that's amazing. Yeah, so since like if it was rated, 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:58.080 you're supposed to know as illegal, do not of at 0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:00.160 least three articles of clothing that matched the idea you 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:05.760 sex or id or whatever it was. Again, probably a guideline, 0:39:05.800 --> 0:39:08.960 not a specific law. But so scare drag is dragon pants. 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:12.760 You get some tight fitting pants and a wig and makeup, 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:14.960 and you tie a men's shirt around your waist, so 0:39:15.000 --> 0:39:17.360 if you need to transform, you just rip off the 0:39:17.400 --> 0:39:22.080 wig and button up your shirtbook. I know. It's also 0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:24.920 a fucking sick look. It's like a superhero like just 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:29.120 like it's time to go not Poka anymore, Ye Superman. 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:33.880 That's so cool, I know. But I think a great loophole. Yeah, totally. 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:36.000 And so they have this whole culture that they built 0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:39.360 around scare drag and or aesthetic that they built around it. 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:41.360 And I like it because this black block. But for 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:46.400 nineteen sixty street queens, you know. Yeah, and while some 0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:49.239 of the well the street queens were hustlers, right, they 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.600 generally weren't at Stonewall for work but to hang out. Um, 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:54.759 I'm sure some of them did do work there. Like 0:39:54.800 --> 0:39:57.040 everything is like Oh, sex work wasn't a big thing there, 0:39:57.239 --> 0:39:59.200 and I think it wasn't the people. I think the 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:01.600 people saying that aren't trying to downplay sex work. They're 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:03.319 literally being like, this is where people go to like 0:40:03.440 --> 0:40:07.160 let loose rather than get work. But there is a 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:10.600 guy who connects them to sex work very directly, and 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:13.879 he is one of the most interesting characters in this 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:19.560 whole story. Oh, the bouncer at Stonewall is an Irish 0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:28.080 Italian Catholic man named Ed the Skull Murphy. Wow. Wow, 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:32.600 what name. Wow. I wonder how he got that name. 0:40:32.640 --> 0:40:36.319 First of all, ill, okay, great, Yeah, we're gonna talking 0:40:36.320 --> 0:40:39.759 about We're talking about Skull Murphy. Yeah, there are so 0:40:39.800 --> 0:40:43.959 many great names. I know gay history. I know when 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:46.359 the Skull was like eleven or so, he probably wasn't 0:40:46.440 --> 0:40:49.120 named the Skull yet. He bashed a cop in the 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.800 head with a milk bottle for trashing his shoeshine. Stand. Wow, 0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:56.719 out of all the skulls to bash, that is the 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:58.839 one I would want to to bash. To be named 0:40:59.000 --> 0:41:03.319 the skull, Yeah, that's amazing. Okay. But so he fought 0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:04.920 in World War Two and then he come back and 0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:07.040 he becomes this professional wrestler where he got the name 0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:11.200 the Skull right, and he's a big fucking guy. He's 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:15.040 like taking steroids and his signature fight move is that 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:22.000 he head butts people um ed. Oh yeah, I love that, 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:25.840 and it's between bouncing gigs for gay bars is the 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:27.800 other thing he starts doing for the mafia when he 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:30.279 comes back from the war. He also has another job. 0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:32.880 Oh he shows on the ad transition here because of 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:35.680 the next part's about gold. But if you want some 0:41:35.800 --> 0:41:38.719 gold and you don't want to buy it, the joke 0:41:38.760 --> 0:41:40.640 here for anyone who's listening is that sometimes we get 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:43.200 ads for gold buying gold, and then usually make fun 0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:46.360 of that because he's usually a bad investment. Yeah. Also 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:49.600 people I don't know people listen to I can happen here. No, 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.279 I'm allergic to gold, so that's another that's right, I 0:41:52.280 --> 0:41:57.760 have gold teeth. Yeah yeah, allergy can't. Yeah, stay away. 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:04.400 So he liked to rob dentists. That was his other hobby. 0:42:05.280 --> 0:42:10.880 This guy is so cool, so not from dentists. He 0:42:10.960 --> 0:42:14.560 does some sketchy stuff, like some bad stuff, but yeah, 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:17.880 but he is. He is one of the most complete 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:22.120 characters of like Good and Bad. All Yeah, I'm just 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:24.200 really excited to hear what you would take make of him. So, 0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:27.040 okay him and is one of his gay friends. I 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:29.600 don't know if they are lovers or not. Um. So 0:42:29.640 --> 0:42:31.600 the gold thing was because he would steal stuff from 0:42:31.640 --> 0:42:33.600 dentists and sell them, like the steal gold teeth from 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:36.200 dentists and sell them. Yeah. Yeah, that was was making 0:42:36.200 --> 0:42:38.839 that trance. Like literally he would go and he's he's 0:42:38.840 --> 0:42:40.839 steal their stash of gold teeth or like the gold 0:42:40.880 --> 0:42:45.000 that they used to make crowns. Honestly genius move, no, 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.200 I know, And it worked for a very long time. Um. 0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:51.280 One time they go rob this dentist and the dentist 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:54.640 is like, please don't take my diamond ring. It was 0:42:54.680 --> 0:42:56.800 a gift. It was given to me by my father 0:42:56.920 --> 0:43:00.200 for his buff for my bar mitzvah. And so they 0:43:00.239 --> 0:43:02.440 let the guy keep his diamond ring because they're classy, right, 0:43:02.440 --> 0:43:03.920 And so they just steal the gold teeth and then 0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:06.839 they leave. But the next day there was a news 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:10.600 headline that reads, quote dentist CON's robbers out of ring. 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:17.920 So they go back. Yeah wow, so he like mis 0:43:18.040 --> 0:43:21.239 represented of the story. Yeah yeah, So it's like he 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:23.440 convinced them to let me keep this. Yeah, because a 0:43:23.440 --> 0:43:26.520 bunch of suckers. So they go back and they beat 0:43:26.600 --> 0:43:29.320 him up and they take the diamond ring. That's hilarious. 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:37.520 On their seventy third dentist robbery. He gets caught a 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:41.160 lot of robberies before you. I know, I would say 0:43:41.320 --> 0:43:44.239 the lesson here is that make sure you only rob 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:46.839 like seventy dentists or fifty if you want to play. 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:50.839 It's safe. It is completely safe to rob. The more 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:54.040 you rob, the higher the probability goes that you're doing 0:43:54.120 --> 0:43:57.240 a caught. So just keep my mind when your numbers 0:43:57.280 --> 0:44:00.200 go up. Yeah, totally. So he gets caught and he 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:04.320 does ten years. He gets out, he starts bouncing for 0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:07.000 the mafia gay bars again, and he's perfect for it. 0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:10.120 He's a crook, he's part Italian, he's scary as fucking hell. 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:15.120 He's the huge. Yeah, he earns a new nickname. Okay, 0:44:15.239 --> 0:44:17.880 his new nickname. It was pretty good, so I know 0:44:18.040 --> 0:44:20.560 this one's somehow even better. The two go really well together, 0:44:21.120 --> 0:44:26.040 not like in the same word, but mother mother, because 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:29.560 he looks after and makes work connections for all the 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:34.040 street hustling youth. Mother is such an interesting name for 0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:36.759 that kind of person. I know, I know, that is 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:42.319 so cool. And now here's where he gets messy. Oh no, 0:44:42.960 --> 0:44:45.680 he starts in a new crime ring. And this new 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:51.560 crime ring they extort gay rich men. The scam is 0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:54.440 called the Chicken and the Bull, and it's a reasonably 0:44:54.440 --> 0:44:56.440 simple scam. You get a rich gay man to take 0:44:56.480 --> 0:44:59.200 home a young sex worker who's called the chicken to 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:02.920 a hotel room. Then and either the worker the chicken, 0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:05.600 just grabs the guy's wallet and runs and then you're 0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:08.560 just like done, you know. Or the bull, who's either 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:12.600 a corrupt cop or someone like our man ed pretending 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:15.680 to be a cop, comes into the room and it's like, 0:45:15.760 --> 0:45:17.920 I'm going to arrest you unless you give me a 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.359 bunch of money, and if the target is important enough, 0:45:21.480 --> 0:45:23.000 like they come in and they're like, oh sha, that's 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.279 a fucking senator, because this absolutely gets some senators and shit, 0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:30.160 they're like, actually, you know what, we're actually going to 0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:32.920 blackmail you now and basically hold this over your head 0:45:32.960 --> 0:45:34.560 that we know that you're game. We have pictures and shit, 0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:38.160 you know, yeah yeah yeah, And so this isn't like blackmail, yeah, 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:40.160 and so this isn't just Ed doing it as this 0:45:40.239 --> 0:45:43.840 whole extortion ring and it's mostly run by cops, including 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:46.439 a Chicago cop who was taking ten percent of every 0:45:46.480 --> 0:45:49.839 extortion and was providing the fake police credentials and all 0:45:49.840 --> 0:45:54.400 that shit. Well, okay, and this scam was fucking huge. 0:45:55.280 --> 0:45:57.879 It's actually the same scam run by veteran of the Pods, 0:45:57.960 --> 0:46:01.000 Sophie Lions, who is Ueen of the Underworld. If you 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:04.120 want to hear my episode about her from last fall. 0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:07.279 Hers was straight and she did it alone, and she 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:09.520 didn't somehow manage to entrap some of the most powerful 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:11.680 people in the country because they did this to a 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:17.880 bunch of prominent people, including Liberaci, whoa an admiral and 0:46:18.000 --> 0:46:23.160 a congressman. Oh shit, the Admiral William Church killed himself 0:46:23.200 --> 0:46:25.600 when the whole thing was uncovered and he was revealed. 0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:31.399 And it's interesting. It's when the crime is uncovered, when 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:34.520 the criminal ring goes down, it drags all the blackmailed 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.080 people into the limelight and it outs them. It's the 0:46:37.080 --> 0:46:39.440 thing that they'd been paying to have not happened. The 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:44.640 government then does to them, right. That sucks. Yeah, And 0:46:44.680 --> 0:46:46.200 it actually parallels some one of the things that we 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:48.799 talked about you and I when we talked about the 0:46:48.800 --> 0:46:51.960 gay resistance to Nazis. How early German gay rights activists 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:54.640 in the nineteen tens and twenties used to out prominent 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:57.360 closeted people, which led to a bunch of suicides. It 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:01.480 was there like activism. It's like fucked up. But yeah, 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:02.799 and so I don't think this is good, but this 0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:05.839 is what happens. The Mattachine Society that we talked about 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:09.040 them last time, the sort of more reformist organization. They 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:12.160 actually help with the government's investigation of this because they 0:47:12.200 --> 0:47:14.560 want to stop this extortion ring, this targeting gay men, 0:47:15.120 --> 0:47:18.280 and they serve as the go betweens between the victims 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:19.920 and the cops because the cops don't want to talk 0:47:19.960 --> 0:47:22.239 directly to the Sorry, the victims don't want to talk 0:47:22.239 --> 0:47:26.080 directly to the police. So ed the skull Murphy. When 0:47:26.120 --> 0:47:31.680 the ring gets busted, he starts snitching. No mother, I know. 0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:34.279 He still gets five years, but he didn't serve at all. 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:37.720 Rumor has it, which does not mean this is true. 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:41.480 Rumor has it he has blackmail photos of FBI director 0:47:41.560 --> 0:47:44.279 j Edgar Hoover, and he held for the rest of 0:47:44.280 --> 0:47:46.399 his life. He held that Hoover was gay. And liked 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:50.120 a cross dress and is later It's later been claimed 0:47:50.120 --> 0:47:52.840 that the reason Hoover didn't go after the mafia was 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:58.080 because of these photos. Oh we shit, right, I mean 0:47:58.360 --> 0:48:01.440 I thought the other as you mentioned, we're big fish. 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:05.080 But that's the biggest fish. Yeah, I know. Wow, that 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:08.680 is I mean I kind of believe him. Why would 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:11.399 he lie about that? Yeah, I see no particular reason. 0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:14.040 Like my gut instinct is that this is true, but 0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:16.000 I haven't really looked into it, and I'm not trying 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:18.800 to like specifically say I know that this is true, right, Yeah, 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:22.120 but just like all all science point to Yes, that's 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:27.200 so interesting. Yeah. Well so he gets out of prison. Yeah, yeah, no, 0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:30.319 and he goes back to bouncing gay bars. Um, he's 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:32.680 the main doorman at Stonewall and he's there the night 0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:36.840 of the riots. He sells drugs, he's pimping, or rather 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:41.400 he's making introductions for which he took tips. And he 0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:45.080 also protects young sex workers. Like there's like a story 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:47.680 about like, um, the street queens love him, right, and 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:50.279 so I think that's telling about his relationship in the 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:54.080 work environment for them. When when customers try to assault 0:48:55.160 --> 0:48:58.799 the young sex workers, there's mother showing up and he's 0:48:58.840 --> 0:49:01.480 fucking scary, right is he sorry if you mentioned this? 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:05.680 Is he gay? Yes, but he's not out? Oh shit, 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:11.280 yeah yet? Okay, yeah he's gay the whole time. Yeah, okay, 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:14.280 I just wanted to make sure. Yeah. Yeah. He also 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:17.360 at the bar, he's running a ring of street queens 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:19.640 stealing wallets. I don't know if this is directly related 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:21.600 to the chicken extortion or not, but or if he's 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:23.640 just still like, yeah, what's up, Like if you ever 0:49:23.719 --> 0:49:25.760 want to steal a wallet, I'll like move it for you, 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:28.360 you know, I don't. I don't know exactly. He's also 0:49:29.640 --> 0:49:32.520 snitching to the mafia about which patrons are so rich 0:49:32.600 --> 0:49:37.120 that they can be extorted. He's also maybe informing the 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:41.319 cops about what's happening at Stonewall. And this is the 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:43.719 one thing that I feel is like contentious and we 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:48.400 don't know, I've read both things. He also very adamantly 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:50.279 is like I ain't no snitch or kind of like 0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:53.279 one and done. You know that he and he had 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:55.719 also snitched on cops, so it's like a little bit 0:49:56.400 --> 0:49:59.920 right MESSI he also was and he's this white guy 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.799 and he's specifically known for defending people of color, and 0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:07.680 after Stonewall, later bars sometimes wouldn't hire him because they 0:50:07.719 --> 0:50:12.320 were convinced he'd quote turned the club black because he, 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:16.040 like you know, was friends with all people. Yeah, it 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:20.200 was an ally, yeah, yeah, I mean he was also gay, 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:25.719 but as far as race, yeah, damn. I mean it 0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:28.040 is messy though, You're right, because he sounds like he 0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.839 was a really good person that people respected in the community, right, 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:35.759 even though he's doing these things that are actually unconsciousable. Yeah, 0:50:35.800 --> 0:50:39.560 and we're going to talk about his like I think 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:42.280 probably next episode. This isn't me skipping to next episode. 0:50:42.280 --> 0:50:44.640 There still a bit more in this episode, but he's 0:50:44.680 --> 0:50:46.920 going to come back into the story after Stonewall, and 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:49.880 he has a really interesting arc from there too. Okay, 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:53.160 cool the acid dealer at stone Wall, it's talking about 0:50:53.160 --> 0:50:56.479 someone else. There is one of the bartenders, and she's 0:50:56.719 --> 0:51:01.399 a queen named Maggie Jigs. These names I know. So 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:04.560 here's to the Maggie's of the world. I will say YEA. 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:08.000 Her partner, Tommy Um I think both romantic and um 0:51:08.640 --> 0:51:11.839 and business kept a toy duck on the bar and 0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:16.600 would quack it anytime someone left a tip. I love 0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:19.200 I know, I love that it's like this sketchy crime bar, 0:51:19.280 --> 0:51:22.120 but everyone's like kind of having fun and quack in 0:51:22.200 --> 0:51:24.760 the duck and it's simple community where people feel safe 0:51:24.760 --> 0:51:26.840 and yeah, so if like, yeah, you're gonna get a 0:51:26.880 --> 0:51:28.759 wallet's stolen, but no one's gonna fucking treat you like 0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:32.400 ship for being gay. Everyone loved Maggie even though shecasonally 0:51:32.480 --> 0:51:35.239 stole shit from you. Her attitude towards money was two 0:51:35.280 --> 0:51:38.239 for the bar, one for myself. I respect that she 0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:42.600 was really good at setting up three ways. Okay, fucking 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:45.800 hero Maggie Jigs And I almost am certain this is 0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:49.799 an independent investigation. This is a kai googled Maggie jigs Um. 0:51:50.600 --> 0:51:52.840 She gets her name from a comic strip at the 0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:56.160 time called Bringing Up Father, which is this Irish American 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:59.400 couple Maggie and Jigs and they're like dealing with class 0:51:59.440 --> 0:52:03.840 stuff where like they they suddenly become rich rich, but Jigs, 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.120 the husband wants to like still like stay down and 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:08.600 dirty and hang out with all his poor friends, whereas 0:52:08.640 --> 0:52:10.920 like Maggie is like a nag and wants to be 0:52:10.960 --> 0:52:14.320 like rich or whatever. Also at the bar, a nearly 0:52:14.400 --> 0:52:17.040 naked go go dancer dance in a gilded cage on 0:52:17.080 --> 0:52:22.959 the bar m Risque. Yeah, it's a really interesting place. 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:24.799 Some people loved it, some people hated it. It had 0:52:24.800 --> 0:52:27.640 a reputation, like there's a lot of his there's a 0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:29.520 lot of the people who are involved, even in the 0:52:29.520 --> 0:52:31.279 Stonewall riots. A lot of them were like, I don't 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.600 go to fucking Stonewall. Fuck that place, right because it 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:39.759 was just like too risky. So no, because it well, 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:42.880 like one, it was like too crimy I think for 0:52:42.880 --> 0:52:45.560 a lot, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, And it also had 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.880 a place sense. It's kind of intense, I know. And 0:52:47.920 --> 0:52:50.360 it had a reputation as a place where chicken hawks, 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:53.759 older men cruising for younger boys hung out. And so 0:52:53.840 --> 0:52:55.919 I think some people are a little bit like, nah, 0:52:55.920 --> 0:52:59.799 that's sketchy, right no, right, yeah, so that's the bar. 0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:04.600 And let's hear about the riots. So on Wednesday, whoa 0:53:05.280 --> 0:53:08.759 we did it? Wow? Yeah, that's so interesting, so many 0:53:08.800 --> 0:53:11.600 good names. I know. I can't wait to hear about 0:53:11.640 --> 0:53:16.439 the end of the skulls arc. It's so good. I'm 0:53:16.440 --> 0:53:21.759 so excited. Yeah. No, there's like, well, y'all just gonna 0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:25.120 have to wait for part four. Cliffhanger, I know, So 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:28.120 what else people don't have to wait for is to 0:53:28.120 --> 0:53:33.359 connect with you with your You can follow me on 0:53:33.360 --> 0:53:35.840 the internet if you want to. You don't have to. 0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:39.480 I get it, but I'm Shiro Hero on Instagram a 0:53:39.520 --> 0:53:43.200 Shiro Hero six six six on Twitter. They will follow 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:47.560 you wherever you make up. I actually don't know the 0:53:47.600 --> 0:53:50.960 legality of me singing songs on here um from a 0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:52.840 like copyright point of view. I know I saw you 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:55.080 were singing, but it reminded me of the Gilmore Girls song. 0:53:55.520 --> 0:54:00.760 Yeah great, whatever, some old I don't fucking shit about 0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:03.640 what I'm singing at any given time. If you want 0:54:03.640 --> 0:54:06.880 to follow me on the internet, I'm at Magpie Killjoy 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:08.960 unless you have something that you disagree with about what 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:11.000 I said, in which case I'm on Twitter at I 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:18.480 write Okay, and I'm on Instagram at Margart Killjoy and 0:54:18.560 --> 0:54:24.200 we'll see you all Wednesday. Cool People Who Did Cool 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:27.000 Stop is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.320 podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:33.279 dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 0:54:33.320 --> 0:54:36.200 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.