Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's
Speaker 1: guest is the owner of Airhead Rifles, Luke Krok. Arrowhead
Speaker 1: is known for smoke with muzzloaders. They're getting more into
Speaker 1: that custom center fire rifle and then also muzzlover components.
Speaker 1: How things going, Luke? Great?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just got back from a cow el con
Speaker 2: over in New Mexico. So back at the grind, but
Speaker 2: feeling feeling refreshed.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice. Nice. It looks like you and your dad
Speaker 1: have been going out there for maybe a couple of
Speaker 1: years doing the cow All cut. Yeah.
Speaker 3: He actually he went last year.
Speaker 2: He bailed on me this year because he's got He
Speaker 2: drew on Range Rix in March and he's a kind
Speaker 2: of a Midwest home body, so getting him out for
Speaker 2: two hunts and the seas and is kind of tough.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, so I took a buddy over this year.
Speaker 1: It looks like you guys were successful according to Facebook. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh you got you got to do any other hunting
Speaker 1: or has that been it for the fall? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Actually, Jim over there at Marsupial Gear. I went on
Speaker 2: impromptu Angelo punt with him over in New Mexico as
Speaker 2: well back in late August and got you know, like
Speaker 2: a seventy inch buck had a fun hunt over there,
Speaker 2: and then I'll, uh, I'll head down to Mexico for
Speaker 2: coups there in January.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. We were just talking talking about that a
Speaker 1: little bit ahead of the show. You know, we've been
Speaker 1: you know Darr really well, and I've been going with
Speaker 1: you know, Jay and Darr down there and it's it's
Speaker 1: a it's a really fun hunt there south of the border.
Speaker 1: So this would be my first year not going in
Speaker 1: four years. I'm a little a little sad that decided
Speaker 1: to take on and help coach our high school boys basketball.
Speaker 1: So it'll be another little fun, fun adventure. But that
Speaker 1: January hunt is going to get in the way of
Speaker 1: that somehow take a year off. But yeah, So back
Speaker 1: to like how how I got ahold of you? How
Speaker 1: I you know, I guess introduced, you know, through me
Speaker 1: just buying stuff because I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 1: I had bought a seven hundred ultimate muzzle order you
Speaker 1: two years ago, Washington State where I live, changed the
Speaker 1: ignition system law. Finally, you know, we had went from
Speaker 1: we had number elevens and muskets, we went to two
Speaker 1: on nine's were legal as long as they were open
Speaker 1: and breached, and then ultimately they went to all modern
Speaker 1: ignition system I believe, And don't quote me on any
Speaker 1: of these, you know, to our listeners, don't quote me
Speaker 1: on those. But I remember, like I shot just a
Speaker 1: Northwest Traditions muzzli er forever because I knew I was
Speaker 1: safe with muskets. And then I went right from that
Speaker 1: gun to to the ultimate. And you know, I probably
Speaker 1: do things wrong because I jump on the internet and
Speaker 1: start reading, you know, and there's there's mixed reviews. But
Speaker 1: one thing that started to jump out as I was
Speaker 1: developing loads for this this ultimate was you can't load
Speaker 1: too much, you know, black Horn two nine, because you're
Speaker 1: gonna you know, I guess I'm gonna describe it way
Speaker 1: worse than you can, but basically you're gonna start to
Speaker 1: gas vent and gas cut your breech plug right right.
Speaker 2: So the yeah, these higher you know, higher performance muzzle loaders. Uh,
Speaker 2: if you if you have leakage one time, generally you
Speaker 2: get gas cutting, which is just you know, the the
Speaker 2: gas escaping from the ignition, but it'll actually like burn
Speaker 2: a channel through your breach plug. And you know you
Speaker 2: may slow it down, but once once it leaks, once
Speaker 2: it's just gonna get worse.
Speaker 1: Worse, worse, and keep cutting cutting back. So me, being conservative,
Speaker 1: didn't have time to mess with it. I I load,
Speaker 1: and once again, don't check my math because I was
Speaker 1: just doing it by volume. So I said, all right,
Speaker 1: one hundred grains by volume, which I think converted like
Speaker 1: seventy three grains by weight, like a very mild load. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I jumped down to just two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: grain federal borlock bullet. It was easy to load. I
Speaker 1: got it to shoot well out to one hundred and
Speaker 1: went hunted and killed an elk with that. But then
Speaker 1: the more I read, the more I'm like, man, this
Speaker 1: really intrigues me. These guys are getting you know, I'm
Speaker 1: we're gonna put a disclaimer on all of these, like
Speaker 1: my load data that we're going to talk about stuff
Speaker 1: that Luke may talk about, like you need to work
Speaker 1: up to all of those, like don't just take a
Speaker 1: number and go put in your gun, because there's pressure,
Speaker 1: there's differences, like you need to make sure that works
Speaker 1: in your gun, and it could be dangerous to go
Speaker 1: out and do those. But you know, so you know,
Speaker 1: my mom always says, I'm the hardest guy to ever
Speaker 1: buy for for Christmas. What do you want? I said, Well,
Speaker 1: if you can get me an arrowhead like Gen two
Speaker 1: breach for this gun and some modules like that, that'll work.
Speaker 1: Like we'll we'll go with that. And so I didn't
Speaker 1: have any intention of muzzloader hunting this year. Got lucky,
Speaker 1: drew a tag and realized that the muzzloader season I'm
Speaker 1: not going to get in all the conditions of my tag.
Speaker 1: It's very complex, but basically I had to switch over
Speaker 1: to a muzzloader on September twenty eighth, which I thought
Speaker 1: I was gonna be able to use my modern rifle,
Speaker 1: but since there was a general mussloader season in that unit.
Speaker 1: So I'm like I was in a rush, you know,
Speaker 1: I was installing the and then you know we you know,
Speaker 1: thankfully the Gen too. You got pretty dialed. It worked, right,
Speaker 1: you know, the little go no gay gauge worked. I'm like,
Speaker 1: all right, got that by and went and developed a
Speaker 1: and you know kind of was, you know, worried about
Speaker 1: ordering bullets. I ordered some furry bolts from you, some
Speaker 1: three hundred and twenty grain theories and got it all
Speaker 1: set up, but I made some posts about it. And
Speaker 1: the reason I've got you on as a guest is
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how many questions there are about muzzloaders.
Speaker 1: It seems like nowadays, you go to order a custom rifle,
Speaker 1: you pick a yeah, you pick a caliber that you like,
Speaker 1: you know, pick a stock that the gun builder recommends,
Speaker 1: and you're on your way. Where muzzleloaders there's it seems
Speaker 1: to be like there's a little more unknown. And I
Speaker 1: had a ton of questions about my setup, and I
Speaker 1: realized at that point right there, I was not the
Speaker 1: right guy to be answering those questions, and so I
Speaker 1: wanted to bring you on. You know, I know there
Speaker 1: are you know, some other builders out there, but arrow Head,
Speaker 1: you know, by far is is kind of the leading
Speaker 1: you know, aftermarket muzzleoader component manufacturer, And that's why I
Speaker 1: wanted to have you on, so you can answer all
Speaker 1: these questions that have been brought to me, and you know,
Speaker 1: hopefully hopefully answer them a lot better than I can.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There, I mean, there's I think a lot with the
Speaker 2: like you said, as center fire, it's kind of simplistic
Speaker 2: relative to a muzzloader. And then there's just so many
Speaker 2: variations of muzzleloaders out there, yep. And then you've got
Speaker 2: just a load of different projectiles and powders, and I
Speaker 2: can definitely get overwhelming.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And when I started, so I cut my teeth
Speaker 1: muzzloder hunting, and it was my dad's way to extend
Speaker 1: his season. I think is why I got because growing up,
Speaker 1: elk hunting was the right of passage. You could deer
Speaker 1: hunt with a rifle when you were young, but elk
Speaker 1: hunting was for the men. You know. They they would
Speaker 1: go out. I live in an area with nothing but timber,
Speaker 1: so they would glass clear cuts for the first twenty
Speaker 1: thirty minutes and then they were in the timber all day.
Speaker 1: And they didn't want to deal with a you know,
Speaker 1: a fifth or sixth grader. You know, I don't even
Speaker 1: know how old for the traders are now, you know.
Speaker 1: So Dad would let me muzzloder hunt. It would extend
Speaker 1: his season. We get the elk hunt more. But I
Speaker 1: can remember back in the old days, we had lots
Speaker 1: of opportunities, but you know, bad hang fires guns that
Speaker 1: just wouldn't go off with three or four percussion. You know,
Speaker 1: you would try to reload and the gun just wouldn't
Speaker 1: go off. I live in this you know, super wet Northwest,
Speaker 1: and so like my experience with muzzloaders originally was like
Speaker 1: this is this sucks, like you can't you know. And
Speaker 1: uh So as time goes on, the rules change, Washington rules,
Speaker 1: I would say, lax, whether you like them or not,
Speaker 1: they've allowed you know, more uh, you know, efficient, which
Speaker 1: I do. Like, we're not hang firing and shooting an
Speaker 1: elk and the you know, the wrong shoulder, the back,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever it may be. We're more accurate. But
Speaker 1: I will say that these more modern mussloaders are definitely
Speaker 1: more efficient and are probably allowing hunters to take more game.
Speaker 1: But I you know, at least we're not wounding them
Speaker 1: or making bad hits. So now that was my original
Speaker 1: introduction to muzzloaders was hang fires guns that just didn't
Speaker 1: go off, or guns that weren't as accurate because we
Speaker 1: were you know, maybe getting eighteen hundred feet per second,
Speaker 1: you know, sevente hundred fet per second out of the
Speaker 1: barrel on these old you know, drop two pyrate ex
Speaker 1: pelts down and stuff a bullet in, and so that
Speaker 1: leads us to today. You know, the ultimate muzzloader seemed
Speaker 1: to be like a big undertaking than you guys have
Speaker 1: taken it, you know, way way farther with was smokeless,
Speaker 1: with you know, forty five caliber conversions even on the
Speaker 1: black powder and black powder substitutes. Like where how fast
Speaker 1: has like muzzleoader technology kind of changed, you know, from
Speaker 1: I would say twenty to ten to even now, like
Speaker 1: it seems to be a pretty you know, a pretty
Speaker 1: quick developing I guess niche within in hunting market.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think I started Arrowhead in two thousand
Speaker 2: and eleven and that kind of came out if I
Speaker 2: was started bought a I think it was two thousand
Speaker 2: and six, two thousand and eight. Somewhere in that time,
Speaker 2: I'd bought the Savage ten mL two, which was, I
Speaker 2: guess to this point, the first and only commercially available
Speaker 2: smokeless powder capable muzzleoader, and there were some quite there,
Speaker 2: there were some deficiencies with that, and we'd started to
Speaker 2: rebarrel them to forty five cow with a with a
Speaker 2: premium aftermarket barrel.
Speaker 3: So you know, early on it was we kind.
Speaker 2: Of called it like the the Flying Hardware Store, because
Speaker 2: like people are trying to figure out how to get
Speaker 2: sabos to shoot well with the higher pressure and stuff
Speaker 2: and washers and sub bases in there and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: So I feel like it's plateaued a little bit in
Speaker 2: the last couple of years as far as the performance.
Speaker 2: But yeah, i'd say like from well, what it's been
Speaker 2: thirteen years now since I started arrowhead, Like back then,
Speaker 2: two hundred yards was still kind of considered a longer shot,
Speaker 2: and you know now that's you know, we go straight
Speaker 2: to four or five hundred yards. I still you know,
Speaker 2: people hear that four to five hundred yards and start
Speaker 2: wringing their hands, the traditionalists do, which I mean, I
Speaker 2: understand that, but I tried to pump the brakes on
Speaker 2: people go into four or five hundred yards for hunting.
Speaker 2: I mean it, it's definitely doable, but guys are factoring
Speaker 2: in wind drift and stuff like that. So we still
Speaker 2: we'll see a lot of guys totally with you. You know,
Speaker 2: you need to just like any firearm bow whatever, you
Speaker 2: had to get out there and put in your time
Speaker 2: after range and and whatnot.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's in the last decade.
Speaker 2: It's I mean, like I said, two hundred yards, which
Speaker 2: used to be I'd rebarreled that Savage ten mL two
Speaker 2: to forty five calend I had a bunch of antler
Speaker 2: list tags. I was living back in Iowa at the time,
Speaker 2: and I think I killed three or four year in
Speaker 2: like two to two hundred and fifty yard range, and
Speaker 2: I was like hot.
Speaker 3: I thought it was hot stuff.
Speaker 2: I was definitely strutting around bragging all my buddies after that. Now,
Speaker 2: you know, two hundred yards, you know, you know that's
Speaker 2: kind of considered average at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I remember my first my first experience with UH,
Speaker 1: with the Ultimate muzzleloader, which I know they make, you know,
Speaker 1: better aftermarket musslos or custom built, but I remember going
Speaker 1: to New Mexico and my buddy loading up. I think
Speaker 1: back then he was running like one hundred and three
Speaker 1: greens by weight. You know. We'd sit there at the
Speaker 1: little powder measure. I'm like, what are we doing all
Speaker 1: this for? Like, we don't do that back home. You
Speaker 1: just drop some pellets down, and then I went and
Speaker 1: shought a I believe it was like a three shot
Speaker 1: group of four hundred yards. Back when New Mexico didn't
Speaker 1: have the limitations they do now, and we shot like
Speaker 1: a four inch group at fo hundred yards and I
Speaker 1: was just blown away. I'm like, this gun literally shoots
Speaker 1: better than most factory rifles can shoot at that time.
Speaker 1: And that was you know back.
Speaker 2: Then, right, and even you know, like you take just
Speaker 2: a factory Remington Ultimate or Night. You know, they've all
Speaker 2: made off and on over the years, great muzzle oders
Speaker 2: where you know, accuracy wasn't even necessarily the issue downrange.
Speaker 3: It was it was energy.
Speaker 2: Like we you know, I recalled tons of stories over
Speaker 2: the years where somebody would have a buck at big
Speaker 2: old Iowa white tail at two three hundred yards and
Speaker 2: you know, their gun would shoot subma, so they'd line
Speaker 2: it up and shoot and maybe they made a great shot,
Speaker 2: but you know a lot of times they didn't find
Speaker 2: the year till next spring because the energy is is
Speaker 2: petering off, like they're never getting an exit at that distance.
Speaker 2: So oh, we are pushing stuff a lot faster where
Speaker 2: it's a lot more ethical to on the on the
Speaker 2: killing side where you're actually getting exit wounds at three
Speaker 2: four hundred yards so you recover those animals.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where. You know, when I built my chart,
Speaker 1: I went and put it all in there, and then
Speaker 1: I checked, like all right, at some point you're in
Speaker 1: a out of energy, you're in an out of speed,
Speaker 1: and like, let's limit you know, anything to you know,
Speaker 1: three point fifty and in. Yeah, And my biggest limiting
Speaker 1: factor is in my state is you're trying to do
Speaker 1: all this with the one X scope and that red
Speaker 1: dot SI has to get really big, you know, out
Speaker 1: there at three hundred or you know, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: And and that was my limiting factor because the gun
Speaker 1: and the load that we developed, we were we were
Speaker 1: only getting you know, we were almost getting a little
Speaker 1: over twenty one hundred feet per second I think out
Speaker 1: of that three twenty. But it's a big bull. It's
Speaker 1: got a BC a point two six, and so I
Speaker 1: would just look, I'm like, all right, you know, this
Speaker 1: is where we should cut it, and this is where
Speaker 1: my scope with you know, one one rotation of the turret,
Speaker 1: like I'm out of elevation. So we went out there.
Speaker 1: You know, I've got a really good rifle range right
Speaker 1: here in my backyard, Like confirmed, I could hit a
Speaker 1: you know, eight by I think it's an eight by
Speaker 1: ten rectangle at three hundred and thirty yards like consistently
Speaker 1: every shot. It does take a little dancing, like moving
Speaker 1: the dot. Are we on the target? You know, left
Speaker 1: right up, down, like you're trying to dance that little loophole.
Speaker 1: I use a loophold red dot, you know, trying to
Speaker 1: dance the size of that and can you still see it?
Speaker 1: And you know, the gun, as long as I had
Speaker 1: a good rest and could take my time, you know,
Speaker 1: the gun was capable of three hundred thirty yards all
Speaker 1: day long. The limiting factor was just that stinking you
Speaker 1: know one x. I had no magnification, and so you're
Speaker 1: just you know, trying to make that work. And that's
Speaker 1: where I say, everything kind of dialed and I can
Speaker 1: shoot that far. I can dial that far. The energy
Speaker 1: is still good there. But you go much farther, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to, you know, either find a newer load
Speaker 1: that's pushing faster, a lighter bullet. And then that's when
Speaker 1: you know, we had talked a little bit like well,
Speaker 1: maybe you know, if you really want to get more,
Speaker 1: you know, go down to forty five. And I think
Speaker 1: that's because you can get your speeds up and keep
Speaker 1: the energy up a lot longer or a lot farther
Speaker 1: out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, more more speed and then higher blistic coefficient.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it maintains them further out.
Speaker 1: So that'd be like the next step, you know, if
Speaker 1: we didn't want to shoot the stock fifty kel remonton
Speaker 1: now or I've got to ask, are there in like
Speaker 1: once you add your guys as a breach. You know,
Speaker 1: we've got the stock, Remington barrel. I've had a little
Speaker 1: bit of trigger work done just by like a local
Speaker 1: local gunsmith. You'll lighten it a little bit for me,
Speaker 1: cut the spring, and then you know, put it back together.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else that like, you know, it's probably
Speaker 1: good enough for ninety nine percent of the muzzliter hunters
Speaker 1: out there at that point, right once you put the
Speaker 1: breach and can push it a little farther, or there's
Speaker 1: some inherent like is there a bad stock? Is the stock?
Speaker 1: You know? Are there some things that you would say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, like yours that the Remington Ultimate,
Speaker 2: I think they have two flavors of it. One in
Speaker 2: a laminate woodstock. There's no aluminum pillars in the woodstock
Speaker 2: or anything like that, so you I mean they're like
Speaker 2: if you were going to break it down from an
Speaker 2: inherent accuracy thing, you know, pillar betting that stock would
Speaker 2: potentially improve things for you. I mean as a you know,
Speaker 2: the fundamentals of accuracy between like a rifle and the
Speaker 2: muzzle that are still there. So whether those changes are gonna,
Speaker 2: you know, on a stock gone like that, if you're
Speaker 2: even gonna you know, see an measurable improvement, you know,
Speaker 2: as questionable. But I mean those are like if you were,
Speaker 2: you know, a hobbyist and just had time to putts
Speaker 2: around and wanted to ring the absolute most accuracy out
Speaker 2: of it, that's something you could do.
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: The other stock they have is Bella Carlson the M forty.
Speaker 2: It's got the the integral aluminum block and it I
Speaker 2: haven't I mean, you can skim bed those as well,
Speaker 2: but I haven't really seen much benefit to doing stuff
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Gotcha? Okay, Well we're gonna jump into some listener questions.
Speaker 1: Those are brought to you by Pendleton Whiskey. They sponsor
Speaker 1: our question and answer segment. And so I just made
Speaker 1: a post like I say, a lot of these the
Speaker 1: interest and.
Speaker 2: That Pendleton these bought me some of that I think
Speaker 2: the directors are reserved last couple of years from my birthday.
Speaker 3: That's I'll give it out of the plug.
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice, there you go. Yeah, yeah, no, they they've
Speaker 1: been great partners with us, and they sponsor this little section.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna throw quite a few listener questions at you.
Speaker 1: And like I said, that was really what sparked us.
Speaker 1: I was getting a lot of questions that I wasn't
Speaker 1: really comfortable answering, and so I just kind of pulled
Speaker 1: my my Facebook page and you know, so we're gonna,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go through this. So Colton Stevens asks how
Speaker 1: many grains or powder? And what's your bullet weight? And
Speaker 1: so this is I guess I can say what mine is,
Speaker 1: you can say what yours is. Are what most people
Speaker 1: should do. So I I originally had ordered two eighty
Speaker 1: five grain furies from you. They used to be two
Speaker 1: hundred and eighties. I believe ordered the two eighty fives.
Speaker 1: And of course, once again I go back to the
Speaker 1: internet reading and they're like, oh, not that the two
Speaker 1: eighty fives are inaccurate, but people tend to have better
Speaker 1: luck with the three twenties, like flying more consistent so
Speaker 1: I that's why I called you guys up. Hey, I
Speaker 1: just put an order and I think it's wrong. Can
Speaker 1: you send me the three twenties or can we we
Speaker 1: redo This'm shooting a three hundred and twenty grain universal
Speaker 1: fit Fury, which we're going to get into that universal
Speaker 1: fit here in a little bit. I want to ask
Speaker 1: all of questions about, like, you know, bullets that are
Speaker 1: fit to the barrel, how you how you accomplish that?
Speaker 1: But mine was the universal fit. It's got a little
Speaker 1: plastic disc on the back of the fury, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to speculate. Luke can correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 1: It's probably slightly oversized so that it can fit everything
Speaker 1: from like a five OHO two barrel down and it
Speaker 1: probably deforms us a little bit as you're loading it,
Speaker 1: so it makes sure to get that gas seal. Is
Speaker 1: that correct?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Okay, yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 1: And then I'm shooting black Horn two O nine and
Speaker 1: I'm shooting one hundred and six grains by weight, And
Speaker 1: once again, I'm going to say it again, don't put
Speaker 1: that in your muzzleoder if it's not you know, set up,
Speaker 1: or it's not recommended with your breach for your gun,
Speaker 1: and your gun can handle those type of pressures, but.
Speaker 3: Mine as a manufacturers recommended Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So that is that is a Remington Ultimate muscloader with
Speaker 1: luke and arrowheads, upgraded breach and their ignition system which
Speaker 1: uses a I'm using cc I two fifties, you can
Speaker 1: use Federal two fifteens whatever, basically a large magnum rifle
Speaker 1: primer in your guys' modules. And that's really all I
Speaker 1: have done to the gun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you, you're seeing great accuracy out of it.
Speaker 2: Out of that, I mean, what we've really found is
Speaker 2: a lot of the factory mussloaders out there, Remington Knight, you.
Speaker 3: Know, build a good, good mussloader.
Speaker 2: Like the barrels are generally very accurate, Like where they're
Speaker 2: often deficient is the ignition system. So we you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's where if you get one hundred percent seal,
Speaker 2: you know, you're really setting yourself up for success. And
Speaker 2: then the the where where I see most people run
Speaker 2: into issues is actually with what the projectile they're fitting
Speaker 2: to the barrel. Like every you know, I think all
Speaker 2: with all the bullet makers out there, at one point
Speaker 2: or another, I've sold like an easy loading bullet, and
Speaker 2: that's not necessarily like it's convenient, it's easy to load, right,
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily going to give you your best accuracy,
Speaker 2: especially as you move into the higher performance realm where
Speaker 2: pressures go up like you're not you're not going to
Speaker 2: get consistent engagement into the rifling and the barrel, which
Speaker 2: is going to cause accuracy issues.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the next question is from Neil Rico and
Speaker 1: you'll probably all to answer this better than me. I
Speaker 1: I do have one. I've shot this Fury three twenty
Speaker 1: at ELK this year had a complete pass through right
Speaker 1: to the lungs, and then last year I used the
Speaker 1: Federal borlock one of those bullets. It's very easy to load.
Speaker 1: But then once you realize that it's probably because it's
Speaker 1: way undersized and we're probably not touching a whole lot
Speaker 1: of the rifle, you know, and then in your accuracies
Speaker 1: probably going to go down. But what what have you
Speaker 1: seen just from in you know, in field results, you know,
Speaker 1: good bullets for ELK, you know, larger sized game.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in the you know, if going to
Speaker 2: the fifty cal. You know, if if you can get
Speaker 2: them to shoot the thor the thor solid coppers are good.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's just a barn's bowl with
Speaker 2: the you know, the base milled out. Uh, the furies
Speaker 2: are good. Fury uses a bonded He's got some process
Speaker 2: where he actually kneels the copper and bonds it so
Speaker 2: they they still expand easy, but it's the leads bonded
Speaker 2: to the coppers they hold together. Well. I've heard really
Speaker 2: good things about the new Hornity boar drivers. I haven't
Speaker 2: actually actually, my buddy over Preston over there at Hornity
Speaker 2: just sent me a bunch of the fifty and the
Speaker 2: forty fives to play around with. That's another bullet kind
Speaker 2: of similar to the boarlock where it with those, you know,
Speaker 2: they are a looser fit, but that sub base kind
Speaker 2: of crushes down and then the cop like makes up
Speaker 2: for some of the space.
Speaker 3: So we've we've.
Speaker 2: Actually had really positive feedback from customers using those with
Speaker 2: you know, black horn you can't they can't handle smokeless pressures.
Speaker 2: And most of the most of the states where you're
Speaker 2: hunting with those bullets anywhere way, smokeless isn't going to
Speaker 2: be legal. But it really comes down to a lot
Speaker 2: of times with shot placement right with these these bullets,
Speaker 2: because you're you're slinging a big chunk of lead. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, even if it done, I mean you wanted
Speaker 2: to disrupt a little bit, but I mean most of
Speaker 2: the bullets out there will do a halfway decent job
Speaker 2: if you hit the animal where you're where you're supposed to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, back to my my old days of mussli or hunting,
Speaker 1: you know, we were shooting a lot of like tune
Speaker 1: and forty green hornady, you like hollow points. And what
Speaker 1: frustrated me and why I ultimately went to a barn's
Speaker 1: there towards the end of you know, muzzled or hunting
Speaker 1: with with my old my old school setup was I
Speaker 1: would never ever get an exit and blood trailing in
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest, you thick timber. You know a lot
Speaker 1: of time for shooting these things in the timber. You know,
Speaker 1: you got needles on the ground and you just had horrible,
Speaker 1: horrible blood you know, trails, It was just they were
Speaker 1: non existent, and so you know, even the borlock being
Speaker 1: a solid copper, but then they opened really quick. So
Speaker 1: I was almost want like a copper that almost didn't
Speaker 1: expand to the point where it stopped, like I wanted
Speaker 1: that second hole out of it, But I say the fury,
Speaker 1: and I don't know. I did make a longer shot
Speaker 1: on my bowl here this year with that Fury three twenty,
Speaker 1: so maybe it didn't get the chance to expand because
Speaker 1: the bullet was slowed down, but it it punched, you know,
Speaker 1: a good hole. You know, the entrance hole, of course
Speaker 1: on a fifty is going to be fifty. And then
Speaker 1: on the exit we had a you know, probably a
Speaker 1: two inch hole and it performed really well what I
Speaker 1: would consider extended ranges.
Speaker 3: That sounds like perfect performance to me.
Speaker 1: But it may have been because that bullet was slowed down.
Speaker 1: If I would have hit that elk at one hundred yards,
Speaker 1: we may have had you know, there may have been
Speaker 1: less chance of it coming out. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: hard to tail. Yeah, you know, I'm relating it back
Speaker 1: to like my burgers and stuff as that I should
Speaker 1: on my rifles. I'm going to get a I'm going
Speaker 1: to get a pass through at four hundred more likely
Speaker 1: than I am at one hundred, you know, just because
Speaker 1: that bullets slowed down and it's not being violently like
Speaker 1: ripped apart from the jacket. But yeah, I've got one
Speaker 1: one year testing. I'm one of those guys that doesn't
Speaker 1: want to make my judgment yet until i've got more
Speaker 1: you know, different yard different yardages. But I did loan
Speaker 1: my gun to a buddy that that killed an Elk
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five yards and they still got
Speaker 1: a great pass through, you know as well, so that
Speaker 1: the bullet seemed to be good for ELK. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that answers your question, Neil, but you know
Speaker 1: we're best for Elk is always subjective, but I you know,
Speaker 1: and then what's the other? Is it Pearson bullet? Also?
Speaker 1: Are those the other like border fit that people, you know,
Speaker 1: the guys that get into shooting the longer ranges? Is it?
Speaker 3: Well, so we we have our own line of bullets
Speaker 3: for the forty five and forty cow and that's you know,
Speaker 3: we're not using there's no sub base. It's just a
Speaker 3: copper lead core bullet. So the fit has to be
Speaker 3: much more precise for you're actually getting into a you know,
Speaker 3: with with our customs, with the barrel diameters can controlled
Speaker 3: closely enough to where we can sell pre size bullets.
Speaker 3: But like if you have a CVA Paramount forty five
Speaker 3: kel or something. You're probably going to need to buy
Speaker 3: a sizing die and actually run the bullets through that.
Speaker 3: And the sizing dies are adjustable, so you can tweak
Speaker 3: the fit of the bullet to your barrel and get
Speaker 3: that precise fit those So there's there's a you know,
Speaker 3: with with our bullets, it's a aluminum tip.
Speaker 2: It almost looks like a horn of the a tip
Speaker 2: style bullet. We've gone thinner on the jacket more. They're
Speaker 2: more going to be in that burger style where they're
Speaker 2: you're you're going to get some expansion at distance, but
Speaker 2: more likely to have a pass through at distance versus
Speaker 2: you know, two or three hundred yards where they're going
Speaker 2: to be more frangible.
Speaker 1: Just for conversation's sake, like out of your smokeless and
Speaker 1: you guys, is you know forty five's or even the
Speaker 1: smokeless how fast are you guys pushing those bullets typically.
Speaker 2: So like twenty eight hundred. I mean some of our
Speaker 2: are like we'll we'll build some more like land cannons
Speaker 2: for the guys in the Midwest or just going to
Speaker 2: a box line, but you know, sometimes will be north
Speaker 2: of three thousand feet per second with a three hundred
Speaker 2: grain bullet out of those, God.
Speaker 1: I don't want to I don't want to shoot that
Speaker 1: thing without a muscle break on it. I don't think.
Speaker 3: No, they're they're they're vicious.
Speaker 2: I occasionally get the guy that that wants it without
Speaker 2: a break and I'd say about ninety percent of the
Speaker 2: time those end up back in the shop get a
Speaker 2: break on after they get them.
Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, in my load development, the guy that
Speaker 1: runs our range, the local gunsmith here, he was out
Speaker 1: there and he's seen that I pulled that muzzliter out
Speaker 1: and we're gonna do some load testing, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I was about ready to go home, but he's like,
Speaker 1: I couldn't not, you know, get the entertainment out of this.
Speaker 1: And so even that three and twenty green bullet going right,
Speaker 1: you know, like I said, right around twenty one hundred
Speaker 1: feet per second. Like I'm a big guy. I'm six
Speaker 1: three two fifty, not that that makes you tough or not.
Speaker 1: But by time fifteen shots was done, like I would
Speaker 1: say about shot six or seven, like it was physical discomfort,
Speaker 1: and by like shot ten or eleven, like it was
Speaker 1: starting to get painful, like physically painful, like a grown
Speaker 1: man hitting you in the shoulder as hard as he
Speaker 1: could every time. I'm like, this is not fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say, I've know this and maybe some
Speaker 2: of it is just my body's losing feeling and I
Speaker 2: just don't know this is as much anymore. But the
Speaker 2: newer stocks with like a negative comb where the stock
Speaker 2: isn't smashing your face as much. Like I'll go and shoot,
Speaker 2: you know, twenty or thirty shots, maybe even forty some days,
Speaker 2: depending on how many guns we have to test fire,
Speaker 2: and I don't I don't feel it nearly as much
Speaker 2: as I used to. You know, my face used to
Speaker 2: ache and all that stuff. So I think, you know,
Speaker 2: thankfully there's been some advancements that way that help help
Speaker 2: with with that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they do. They do beat you up pretty good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is is do this like on the rifles? Do
Speaker 1: the stalks, do the discelerator pads like do any Does
Speaker 1: any of that matter or is it just it's gonna.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I mean I've I bought some
Speaker 2: fancied like almost like a lead sled back in the day,
Speaker 2: and you know, it may be helped some, but it
Speaker 2: was it was kind of cumbersome, especially when you had
Speaker 2: a half dozen guns to shoot. So I kind of
Speaker 2: just you know, I bought the kick easy shoulder pads
Speaker 2: and stuff and at some point like recoils, just recoil.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Think that you know, the muzzle breaks help a lot,
Speaker 2: and the better stocks like now, now, I would say,
Speaker 2: you know, we have a lot of you know, my
Speaker 2: buddy takes his ten year old kid out there every
Speaker 2: year and he smokes a deer with with one of
Speaker 2: our full power loads. So you know, it's much more manageable.
Speaker 2: Like you were, I think you were running yours without
Speaker 2: a break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm yeah, I might. We might be talking
Speaker 1: after this podcast and get my guns sent to you
Speaker 1: and they're at least sent to you, and get one put
Speaker 1: on and then you know, we'll talk about that a
Speaker 1: little bit. But you know, then you have to do
Speaker 1: like the pour through funnel, right, so you're not losing
Speaker 1: powdered through the break. And yeah, that's something I definitely
Speaker 1: need to do. The only problem is, and I have
Speaker 1: the same issue with with my my high powered rifles,
Speaker 1: is it seems like something happens fast and I don't
Speaker 1: have time to get my hearing protection in and I
Speaker 1: pulled my trigger more times and I carry to admit
Speaker 1: without hearing protection in. And that's something I need to
Speaker 1: get better at or have, just like the you know
Speaker 1: we around here we call them just like the loggers,
Speaker 1: you know, hearing protection just the orange wrap around your neck,
Speaker 1: you know, the plastic connector and then you can throw
Speaker 1: them in real quick and if nothing else take you know,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five decibels off the high end, it looks
Speaker 1: like on muzzlers. I try to do some research just
Speaker 1: because I'm in the process of order in a silencer
Speaker 1: for my seven short action ultramad because that's my main
Speaker 1: you know, hunting gun. But there are some cans for
Speaker 1: these muzzlers, but they are huge, and I don't think
Speaker 1: anybody wants necessarily hunt with them and you're in a
Speaker 1: ground blind or not moving a whole lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I started doing it back when I was
Speaker 2: in Iowa, so probably eight nine years ago. I had
Speaker 2: a silence co Hybrid. Actually I still have that suppressor.
Speaker 2: It's a it's a great kind of all around suppressor.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you can. Yeah, they do.
Speaker 3: A good job.
Speaker 2: Like I'm not sure you know, if you have if
Speaker 2: you were in the Western state and running black Horn
Speaker 2: two a nine, you would definitely want one that you
Speaker 2: could fully disassemble.
Speaker 3: Just for for cleaning purposes.
Speaker 2: But one of the issues I ran into back in
Speaker 2: Iowa was that it actually traps a lot of heat
Speaker 2: and condensation in the bore. So if you're not removing
Speaker 2: it every time and it's humid out like, you will
Speaker 2: soak your powder if you're shooting a bunch.
Speaker 3: So I I.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're you know, if you're just looking
Speaker 2: the high volume shoot at the range, it's probably not
Speaker 2: the best option. But you know, for hunting it is nice.
Speaker 2: But for me it's it's probably easier just taking the
Speaker 2: airplug uggs versus uh, you know, dealing with the hassle
Speaker 2: loading through loading through a suppressor on the muzzleborder.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So John McCarty is asking what is the ideal
Speaker 1: effective range? And these are all subjective for shooting an
Speaker 1: elk with a muzzlater in our opinion, and it depends
Speaker 1: on your system, right, because you have a gun that
Speaker 1: might be super accurate out the six or seven hundred
Speaker 1: and have plenty of energy where my you know gun
Speaker 1: set up for Washington, may you know, I might say
Speaker 1: I could probably shoot one at this distance, but you know,
Speaker 1: and it depends on how good you can shoot the gun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how good your load is, you know all of that.
Speaker 1: But I set and I haven't told anybody this because
Speaker 1: some I not necessarily embarrassed of it. I just don't
Speaker 1: want people saying, oh, you can't hunt, so you had
Speaker 1: to shoot, you know, But like I had, we've talked
Speaker 1: about this, Like I was consistently hitting an eight by ten,
Speaker 1: you know, three shots in a row, eight by ten
Speaker 1: target at three hundred and thirty yards. Our our yardage
Speaker 1: hears all set up in meters because of some competition shooting.
Speaker 1: They do. So if you're at three hundred year really
Speaker 1: at three thirty, you're at three hundred meters, you know,
Speaker 1: hit that little eight by ten every time, you know,
Speaker 1: dial my scope down, down, my scope back up. My
Speaker 1: My clicks were consistent, and so I had set on
Speaker 1: an ELK three hundred and fifty yards. As long as
Speaker 1: I can get a rest and make a good, comfortable
Speaker 1: shot like that was my limit. The energy chart showed
Speaker 1: that we were still above I think we're somebody can
Speaker 1: run the numbers on me. I think we were still
Speaker 1: above two thousand foot pounds at that three fifty range
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit less. We didn't go like under
Speaker 1: the speed of sound until like four to fifty. So
Speaker 1: I was just like looking at the chart, like where
Speaker 1: am I very you know comfortable blove line?
Speaker 3: How?
Speaker 1: How good can I shoot? How you know, can the
Speaker 1: bullet and the energy you know, handle and work at that?
Speaker 1: So I had set mine at three fifty and that
Speaker 1: was on perfect conditions because of the one X scope.
Speaker 1: You know, where you might be able to say seven
Speaker 1: eight hundred yards with the with the right build, you know,
Speaker 1: and the right win. The other thing is comfortable conditions,
Speaker 1: is you know, being a long range rifle shooter, if
Speaker 1: you got ten especially on these bolts at water bcs
Speaker 1: of two point twos to point threes maybe max.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're forty five, so I don't wind drift and feet.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and you know these bolts are going slow
Speaker 1: where you know on my three thirty eight edge or
Speaker 1: my seven short action ultramag, I still have to read
Speaker 1: the wind, but I can. I got a lot more
Speaker 1: fudge factor in there. These muzzle orders, you missed the
Speaker 1: win read by two or three miles an hour. Extended
Speaker 1: range you're gonna just you know, you're gonna hit something
Speaker 1: three feet off or you're just gonna miss.
Speaker 2: Well, and then follow up shots as well are much slower.
Speaker 2: Right if you you know, long range with a rifle,
Speaker 2: if you're you know, you're on the gun and you
Speaker 2: got to get buddy, that's a good spot. Or right,
Speaker 2: you can have a you know, a round on the
Speaker 2: way a second or two after the first one gets there. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's I think there's there's really too
Speaker 2: many different muzzlers out there to way too subjective to
Speaker 2: give a number, like there's there's no substitute for you
Speaker 2: figure out practicing with you're a gun as far as
Speaker 2: like our are the effective range of our customs, you know,
Speaker 2: we were talking about that maybe a little early in
Speaker 2: this podcast or before, I can't remember, but you know,
Speaker 2: energy wise, yeah, we're good the seventy eight hundred yards,
Speaker 2: but wind drift calls, I mean we're talking I think
Speaker 2: past like six hundred yards, like one mile per hour
Speaker 2: wind is a moa of drift approximately, So no one's
Speaker 2: good enough to call win that well. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: really feel like four or five hundred yards is a
Speaker 2: you know, ethical max for most people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so this one and I don't know how.
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit before too. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, we hear a lot of Northwest compliant muzzies,
Speaker 1: you know, Northwest compliant muzzle orders. We seem to be
Speaker 1: we seem to kind of hold onto that traditional as
Speaker 1: long as we could, and now some of the laws
Speaker 1: have allowed us to to kind of get through that.
Speaker 1: But when looking at Northwest this comes from Blake Lions.
Speaker 1: When looking at Northwest compliant muzzies, what should you be
Speaker 1: looking at? You know, are you looking at the Remingtons
Speaker 1: now that they're legal? The Knights? Like who's making I
Speaker 1: guess who's making good?
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean Northwest compliant. I take that to
Speaker 2: mean like Oregon and Idaho as well. I mean that's
Speaker 2: more so, I don't even think Washington really falls into
Speaker 2: Northwest compliant, well not anymore. Yeah right, So, I you know,
Speaker 2: I'm definitely not the guy. You know, it's probably been
Speaker 2: twenty years since I've really messed with you know, quote
Speaker 2: unquote Northwest compliant muzzloaders. So I you know, when I
Speaker 2: get that question, I usually send guys towards towards night,
Speaker 2: Like I think they probably make the best Northwest compliant
Speaker 2: muzzloaders and you're just not gonna get you know, I've
Speaker 2: I mean going back twenty years ago. Maybe there's some
Speaker 2: improvements out there that I'm not aware of, but I
Speaker 2: feel like a percussion cap type muzsloader is a you know,
Speaker 2: one hundred, one hundred and twenty five yard type weap yep.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, back back when we were I
Speaker 1: guess back when my state, Washington was Northwest compliant type,
Speaker 1: you know, we had some guys shooting you know, some
Speaker 1: Ruger made a muzzler there for for a little bit
Speaker 1: that did really well. Yeah, there were some guys shooting
Speaker 1: those around here. You had a lot of the night
Speaker 1: guys that had the double safety and so many guys
Speaker 1: had the bad stories of not like twisting that safety
Speaker 1: and missing a shot or not that safety backed out.
Speaker 1: So we had a lot of those or I guess
Speaker 1: you had to screw it forwards with the firing pin
Speaker 1: actually hit and then like I remember, I ran because
Speaker 1: Traditions back in the day, and all the local gun
Speaker 1: shops or you know stores would sell like a Northwest
Speaker 1: conversion of a Traditions which was had a little longer
Speaker 1: barrel already kind of came like muzzle broke, you know,
Speaker 1: just spiral fluted muscle break and you know, some stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But uh, and you know all and I
Speaker 1: may be wrong, but I believe all of those states
Speaker 1: allow black powder black powder substitute, so you still could
Speaker 1: run black horn too nine if you wanted something a
Speaker 1: little cleaner, maybe a little more performance out of those.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think you're gonna have.
Speaker 2: I mean that I have a really hard time getting
Speaker 2: blackhorn to a nine to ignite consistently with a percussion cap.
Speaker 2: And even we we run into it pretty commonly with
Speaker 2: with guys using Blackhorn two a nine with a shotgun
Speaker 2: primer system where they go grab the muzzleoader specific shotgun
Speaker 2: primers and that those are actually a reduced power charge.
Speaker 2: I think it helps with fouling with with Pirate X
Speaker 2: and Triple seven. So with Blackhorn, you really either need
Speaker 2: to be using a large rifle magnum primer system or
Speaker 2: Federal or CCI magnum shotgun primers, not the standard ones.
Speaker 1: Gotcha just to get that Blackhorn to ignite. So that's
Speaker 1: good to know. Like maybe if you're forced to use
Speaker 1: percussion caps or musket caps.
Speaker 3: They stand away from blackhorns, not for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so in that case, I mean there's lots of
Speaker 1: you know, you got the the white hots, You've got pyroecks,
Speaker 1: You've got all these different pellets. Now, like, is there
Speaker 1: one that's better than the other or at the point
Speaker 1: where you're not gonna be able to shoot farther than
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty five one hundred and fifty yards, Like,
Speaker 1: is there any advantage? Have you been messing around with
Speaker 1: a lot of these powers.
Speaker 2: That's where I'm so far removed from that because I've
Speaker 2: just made the choice as a business to focus on
Speaker 2: the higher, higher performance stuff. Like you know, I think
Speaker 2: there's some really good threads on rock Side and some
Speaker 2: of the the other forums. If you if you're going
Speaker 2: down that rabbit, well, I'd probably send you the wrong direction.
Speaker 1: No, I appreciate you being honest there. And this was
Speaker 1: a question I had, but Blake Lyons also kind of
Speaker 1: asks this. And it's very important to us here in
Speaker 1: the Northwest because we do usually by time mid October
Speaker 1: rolls around, we don't have good weather. We're hunting the rain.
Speaker 1: We're hunting our rain gear. Tips for keeping powder or
Speaker 1: primers dry, Like, are you just a guy that like, hey,
Speaker 1: put like a small you know, water balloon over the barrel, Like,
Speaker 1: what's what tips?
Speaker 3: Because I like on.
Speaker 2: Ours, I'll electrical tape them suzzle. Uh you know, we're
Speaker 2: blowing enough gas out where that that tape's coming off
Speaker 2: before the before the bullet gets to it. And then uh,
Speaker 2: you know, since our ignition system one hundred percent seal
Speaker 2: you know, at a full pressure muzzle or load, my
Speaker 2: assumption is like a spent primer module in the breach
Speaker 2: is going to because we don't generally in the West, right,
Speaker 2: we're not walking around with a with a primed loaded
Speaker 2: right or you know, a chamber ground prime buzzleoader. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll just drop a spent module in there to help
Speaker 2: seal the breach. And then I mean that that's been
Speaker 2: very effective, uh doing it that way. Actually, the the
Speaker 2: most most common misfire we have is is actually like
Speaker 2: the first round after somebody cleans where they you clean,
Speaker 2: load it up and go hunt. And with the idea
Speaker 2: with black horn, right and especially definitely smokeless is noncrosis.
Speaker 3: You can you can.
Speaker 2: Hunt on a on a fouled bore, but yeah, oil
Speaker 2: is I mean, it just does not take much oil
Speaker 2: or why you should misfire. So we actually see you know,
Speaker 2: more issues from that necessarily than than people hunting in
Speaker 2: the rain. So we're always hunting on the foul boar
Speaker 2: here at least a couple of shots to burn off
Speaker 2: any any cleaning solvent.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So back when I was young, I remember my
Speaker 1: dad like after I clean my muzzle or like go
Speaker 1: out and snap a couple of caps off, Like does
Speaker 1: that get the oil or does that even do anything
Speaker 1: with the oil?
Speaker 2: I mean it might burn off that water like we
Speaker 2: used to clean them in the bathtub or bucket of water. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it definitely is not enough to clear out oil residue.
Speaker 1: So if you do, if you do want to clean
Speaker 1: your gun, go back out to the rain, shoot a
Speaker 1: couple more times, and then keep it like semi clean,
Speaker 1: yeah for a little bit. Yeah, okay, yeah, and then
Speaker 1: so when we clean these things, I'm going to add
Speaker 1: on to Blake's questions when we clean these things, like
Speaker 1: should we put gun oil down them after black horn
Speaker 1: or should we just like clean them dry and then
Speaker 1: run a bunch of dry patches through versus a solvent?
Speaker 1: Or should you put a layer of oil in them
Speaker 1: and just know that you're gonna have to shoot that
Speaker 1: out next year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if a long term story storage on
Speaker 2: on a muzzloader, I like to, you know, run a
Speaker 2: couple oil patches definitely before I put it away. I like,
Speaker 2: strike hold it's a solvent. They're like a lubricating oil.
Speaker 2: We use a bunch of that in the shop. It
Speaker 2: kind of dries, dries off and just leaves a film.
Speaker 2: So that that's that's one I like for for us preventative.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: I'm just not like I don't trust patches enough in
Speaker 2: a muzzloader too. If I'm heading to the range, I'm
Speaker 2: not you know, I'm I'm not worried about it, right,
Speaker 2: But if if I'm on a hunt, I'm only trusting
Speaker 2: it if I'd actually fired off a couple of shots
Speaker 2: and I've burned everything off.
Speaker 1: So back to that, just just for my own knowledge,
Speaker 1: is do do does point of impact move on a
Speaker 1: muzzloader from a clean shot to a couple of shots.
Speaker 2: We see it on our on our customs for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean every you know, every load combo is going
Speaker 2: to be different. But yeah, we uh with with blackhorn,
Speaker 2: we actually see a velocity spike on the clean barrel.
Speaker 3: There's there's less friction.
Speaker 2: I guess it speeds up so well, generally we're about
Speaker 2: one one and a half m a high on a
Speaker 2: clean boar versus versus a folage boar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's where I was at because I had to
Speaker 1: I shot my gun, had to leave on a new
Speaker 1: Mexico archery all count and then come home and just
Speaker 1: pick it up. And I was worried should I clean it?
Speaker 1: You know, I know black horn is supposed to be
Speaker 1: non corossive, but it just being an old school pirate
Speaker 1: ex guy like, I need to clean this thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we just kind of left it dirty for three
Speaker 1: or four weeks and then loaded it because I was
Speaker 1: scared to clean it because I didn't want my first shot,
Speaker 1: you know. So I was in that battle of do
Speaker 1: I clean it they go and shoot it again or
Speaker 1: do I just you know, and and the guy that
Speaker 1: runs the range and you're always trying to take advice,
Speaker 1: he's like, oh, as long as the bullet still goes
Speaker 1: down the boar, you're good. And I'm like, all right,
Speaker 1: you know, just keep shooting until the bullet doesn't go down,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't know if that's great advice,
Speaker 1: but it worked in the gun. You know, still still
Speaker 1: hit where it needed to even four weeks later. But
Speaker 1: I've always wondered, you know, if point of impact moves tremendously,
Speaker 1: and that's something I just haven't had enough time on this.
Speaker 1: I guess next year when I go to shoot it,
Speaker 1: I'll find out on a clean barrel, like how close
Speaker 1: is it to still be insided in? Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and then I'll have more time on it. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I elected to just keep hunting with it, like twenty
Speaker 1: shots in dirty and I And that's where I don't know,
Speaker 1: is there is there a number like ten shots is
Speaker 1: extremely fouled or is it like a custom built rifle
Speaker 1: where And maybe you have different advice than I've been told,
Speaker 1: But I haven't cleaned my custom rifle since like the
Speaker 1: first ten shots through them that you know, until they
Speaker 1: start shooting bad, like don't touch your rifle barrel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was funny conversation, right.
Speaker 2: I was just over on the Go Hunt podcast and
Speaker 2: kind of laughing with Brady because he's like clean my
Speaker 2: gun every range trip guy, and you know, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't have that kind of time, so I'm more
Speaker 2: in your camp where I'll usually clean my rifles like
Speaker 2: once a year, you know, is where I'm at. As
Speaker 2: far as cleaning goes with black Horn. Really, it kind
Speaker 2: of you know, after first couple of shots, you kind
Speaker 2: of hit us, you know, a steady state with maybe
Speaker 2: just some slight increase in following as it goes on.
Speaker 2: So generally I haven't really seen of accuracy drop with
Speaker 2: black Horn either, it's just at some point, like with
Speaker 2: with the very universal fit or the barlock, where it
Speaker 2: can accommodate some bore diameter variation. You may never run
Speaker 2: into a situation where it's too hard to load. On
Speaker 2: our customs where it's you know, it's not as nearly forgiving.
Speaker 2: We're generally seeing like ten to twenty shots and then
Speaker 2: it gets hard to load. So we'll do it as
Speaker 2: a solvent patch and a couple of dry patches just
Speaker 2: to knock the following down.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, and you're good to go again without a complete cleaning.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I end of the year is really the only
Speaker 2: time I do a complete like straight down clean.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I'm gonna roll my question right on the
Speaker 1: end of Lakes, because the way this podcast is going,
Speaker 1: we're probably gonna not get not get out of these
Speaker 1: listener questions. So on on the cleaning, do you recommend
Speaker 1: removing the breach for a full cleaning or do you
Speaker 1: just run?
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it's super critical, but I've
Speaker 2: seen them, you know, over the years where they just
Speaker 2: get locked in, and I mean on our it doesn't
Speaker 2: hurt anything to pull it out, and then you know
Speaker 2: you at least broke that carbon crubt once a year
Speaker 2: is so you know maybe in five years when you
Speaker 2: have a misfire and you need to to pull that
Speaker 2: breach plug, you know you can do it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, And that's I pulled my breach, ran a patch,
Speaker 1: two or three patches from the and I cleaned my
Speaker 1: muzzlo or backwards. Compared to a rifle, everything's going from
Speaker 1: the action out the barrel. For some reason, on a muzzloader,
Speaker 1: I clean them backwards, which maybe I shouldn't be, but
Speaker 1: I figured, like if I took the breach out, I
Speaker 1: would knock down like that shoulder that maybe develops in
Speaker 1: there that I couldn't get if I didn't take it out,
Speaker 1: get it completely cleaned and then on your guys' breach,
Speaker 1: like it seemed to be very clean, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: know if I should soak it and solve it. I
Speaker 1: kind of looked at it, took a little pick to it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, there's not a lot in here, and
Speaker 1: I just screwed it back in, Like do I need
Speaker 1: to clean that bran?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not much much, especially with like black horn.
Speaker 2: It black horn burns pretty clean, so yeah, there's there's
Speaker 2: not much there to mess with.
Speaker 1: Will there be some like noticeable signs coming up? Like
Speaker 1: all right, something's going on with it? Like will you
Speaker 1: see speeds go down?
Speaker 2: Will you see like no, I mean the only thing
Speaker 2: over the years, Like I mean, it's pretty much a
Speaker 2: zero maintenance system because you know, there's no the flame
Speaker 2: channel is so short, like there's really nowhere for carbon
Speaker 2: to build up in it. You know, the front of
Speaker 2: the plug does have that deep recess and I got
Speaker 2: a gun back from it. I'm not sure what he
Speaker 2: was doing because I've really never seen it in any
Speaker 2: other gun, but like that that recess was almost completely
Speaker 2: carboned up, like there was a maybe an eighth of
Speaker 2: an inch hole down through all that carbon, and we
Speaker 2: you know, we just came in with the quarter inch
Speaker 2: drill bit and drilled it out. So that's really the
Speaker 2: only thing to look out for, is I'm in fact,
Speaker 2: he was like doing some some patching and some solvent.
Speaker 2: It started to get in there and build up or
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened, but yeah, that's that's really
Speaker 2: the only part to look for on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The only the only issue I've had with your system,
Speaker 1: and it's one hundred percent user er, was when I
Speaker 1: went to DP prime, I'm like, oh, number number two
Speaker 1: show holder, let's use a seven mag primer punch, you
Speaker 1: know in in my old RCBS rock Chuck press. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, huh. So I reloaded them all and went
Speaker 1: to put him, and I noticed that the flashole was
Speaker 1: a little bit bigger. It opened it up a little bit.
Speaker 1: But what happened is I had thought I had backed
Speaker 1: it down to the point where it didn't start to
Speaker 1: flare the end of the module. Well, then it was
Speaker 1: too long or it flared too much, and I couldn't
Speaker 1: get the dang bolta clothes. That's why I like, in
Speaker 1: a panic, ordered all of those yea from you. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I ruined whatever however many fifteen or sixteen I shot,
Speaker 1: and so then uh, I'm I'm plugging Luke's business. But
Speaker 1: definitely get like a little cheap DP primer tools. It
Speaker 1: was better than.
Speaker 2: Ruining the punch, Like I just yeah, Paton and say,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's funny, I get that, you know, we
Speaker 2: get that call periodically, like I shot these, you know,
Speaker 2: I shot the modules and they swelled now and they
Speaker 2: won't go back in the plug. And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: that's that's physically not not possible, like your decapin on
Speaker 2: your press.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I learned the hard way. I didn't
Speaker 1: even think about it. And then really you use my
Speaker 1: little hand primer and got them already, went back out
Speaker 1: to the range and I'm like, god, thing won't shut.
Speaker 1: I'm like, gosh, dang it. And I realized that I
Speaker 1: had ruined them all. But no, Buddy Russell Porter's asking
Speaker 1: he really likes your smokeless conversions. What are your favorite
Speaker 1: powders and what are your favorite powders for some smokeless loads,
Speaker 1: and then just how do they compare to a black horn,
Speaker 1: to a nine or a triple seven? I guess performance wise?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they're like, uh, I mean, obviously it
Speaker 2: depends on what gun bowl away and you know, the
Speaker 2: caveat and never used smokeless and a muzzle or that
Speaker 2: stamp Blackhorn two A nine only. But we're we're more
Speaker 2: in that Age forty one ninety eight uh h three
Speaker 2: twenty two benchmark burn rate. And then some of the bigger,
Speaker 2: bigger guns with you know, longer barrels that can burn
Speaker 2: some powder. We'll use like Age forty eight ninety five
Speaker 2: and that you know, that's will really ramp up the speed.
Speaker 2: But as far as black you know versus black and triples,
Speaker 2: I'm not I don't even really know. I've not messed
Speaker 2: with Triple seven much like Blackhorn. Like we're we're in
Speaker 2: that twenty five hundred feet per second range with a
Speaker 2: three hundred grain bullet with black Horn, So it's you know,
Speaker 2: anywhere from three to six hundred feet per second slower
Speaker 2: than the smokeless gotcha, we actually accurate at What's that I.
Speaker 1: Was gonna say? Does accuracy move? I mean, obviously they're
Speaker 1: different nodes and you're yeah them, but like can you
Speaker 1: keep them sless.
Speaker 3: Is more consistent?
Speaker 1: For sure?
Speaker 2: I mean, we'll still you know, we're still very subma
Speaker 2: with blackhorn, but I mean we're one whole groups with smokeless,
Speaker 2: and we actually do most of our are practicing for
Speaker 2: our blackhorn hunts with with smokeless. We just downloaded to
Speaker 2: match the blackhorn speed just because blackhorn has gotten so expensive,
Speaker 2: so we yeah, and then it's cleaner and less expensive
Speaker 2: and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: So gotcha.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same reason you know, you don't
Speaker 2: see people using blackhorn two nine and modern center fire
Speaker 2: kartuge trifles.
Speaker 3: Right, it's not as ye smoke like, it's not as good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just as good as it gets when it
Speaker 1: needs to be legal or a substitute. Right, that's when
Speaker 1: it shines. It's like, that's the best you can get
Speaker 1: when it's got to be black you know, black powder
Speaker 1: or substitute exactly. Yea. Our next question we kind of
Speaker 1: answered already. We'll just all touch on it again. Zellen
Speaker 1: Hessel Guesser was asking about the muzzy too on nions
Speaker 1: versus shotgun two and nine primers, and you've kind of
Speaker 1: already touched on that. It sounds like shotgun two on
Speaker 1: nions are souped up and maybe two nines or maybe
Speaker 1: de deperformed a little bit.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I guess something with the mechanics of igniting
Speaker 2: triple seven. If you have a full power shotgun primer,
Speaker 2: you'll get more carbon build up at that croud ring.
Speaker 1: Gotcha. But you're saying, if you do want to elect
Speaker 1: to run black Horn two oh nine, then you need
Speaker 1: to go to that higher the magna, the actual magnium
Speaker 1: shotgun primers, and stay away from the Muzzy two on nines. Correct.
Speaker 1: And I haven't messed with you, so I'm gonna ask
Speaker 1: a real ignorant question. Are they explicitly like on the packaging,
Speaker 1: like these are Muzzy two on ninons versus these or
Speaker 1: shotgun relok?
Speaker 3: Okay they are? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And that like the the two part numbers you want,
Speaker 2: it's a federal two oh nine A or the C
Speaker 2: C I two oh nine M.
Speaker 3: Are the two.
Speaker 2: Magnum shotgun primers you want, I'd recommend.
Speaker 1: Okay, Dylan roan Ish, he's asking about two and nine
Speaker 1: primers and his twelve year old night disc Extreme. We've
Speaker 1: kind of already touched on that, like at some point
Speaker 1: there's no big advantage in those guns, you know, unless
Speaker 1: you're gonna switch to you know, Blackhorn two and I
Speaker 1: and just for cleaning reasons and then you know running
Speaker 1: that that that better primer. Right, Okay, this is one
Speaker 1: of my questions. We kind of already touched on it,
Speaker 1: Chad Tyler, Lee Hornery, just that cleaning frequency, shooting clean
Speaker 1: versus dirty? How dirty? I wanted to just kind of
Speaker 1: give him credit. It's kind of a question I've already asked,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do. I mean, so my cleaning we'll
Speaker 1: go through one more time. My cleaning is I've got
Speaker 1: a muzzle to rod, I've got patches specifically built for
Speaker 1: a fifty col I've got specific Blackhorn two and I
Speaker 1: and Solve, and I'm like, I might as well like
Speaker 1: they that's what they recommend to clean it. When I'm
Speaker 1: out at the range. If it's in between shots, I'll
Speaker 1: maybe run, you know, one solvent patch down and it
Speaker 1: comes right back up the barrel. I don't have to
Speaker 1: take out my breach. You know, it's got a neurald
Speaker 1: end on it. Two or three swabs, two or three
Speaker 1: dry patches, and I'll continue to shoot. So that's kind
Speaker 1: of what we talked about, kind of that dirty clean
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, bloading bullets and then it sounds like
Speaker 1: we both break our guns down at the end of
Speaker 1: the season. Do you have anything else to.
Speaker 2: Add, Like, yeah, I mean a couple of tricks I
Speaker 2: do or learned over the years is I use a
Speaker 2: regular clinging or od and just a brush to patch with,
Speaker 2: Like I find that is way more consistent on actually
Speaker 2: getting the patch up out of the barrel than a jag.
Speaker 2: So like a I'll use it in a forty five
Speaker 2: I'll use a regular forty five col rifle brush and
Speaker 2: just wrap my patch around that and like like you,
Speaker 2: I'll go in you know for the quick and dirty,
Speaker 2: just right through the muzzle, so that that's that and
Speaker 2: then you know, we really I mean blackhorn isn't you
Speaker 2: can use any solvent really for cleaning that right? It's
Speaker 2: it's you can treat it like a regular rifle at
Speaker 2: that point and where you can get into some issues
Speaker 2: with some of the you know, black powder. Black powder
Speaker 2: substitutes using regular solvents for it's more like water based,
Speaker 2: I think, but we'll use I'll do like a fifty
Speaker 2: to fifty mix with a ninety uh ice propyle alcohol
Speaker 2: and hoppies number nine uh for my solvent. Patch just
Speaker 2: to help that that solvent evaporate off a little better
Speaker 2: if I don't get it all with the dry patch, gotcha?
Speaker 1: So yeah, because hoppies, if I remember it, that's a
Speaker 1: very fairly corrosive like or it can be cross if
Speaker 1: you don't get it back off right. So some people
Speaker 1: say it's a hot solvent. Is that? Is that right?
Speaker 2: I've not I've not heard that. I actually only use
Speaker 2: it for the muzzloaders. We actually switch to a bullet
Speaker 2: while we retail it Bullet Central. I think is has
Speaker 2: it branded? Is it's their line, but their thorough clean.
Speaker 2: So we've started to use that for most of like
Speaker 2: our deep cleaning and our rifle cleaning after we test
Speaker 2: fire them and that that stuff's like magic, you know
Speaker 2: strets that you know, it looks like a new bor
Speaker 2: after you run run that through there in borescope.
Speaker 3: It perfect.
Speaker 1: But so uh, now we're gonna get in the little
Speaker 1: We got a little bit of time left. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: hopefully let me know if you've got a hard stop here, Luke.
Speaker 1: I know you're a busy guy running a busy.
Speaker 3: However long we need to go, all right.
Speaker 1: So let's say I've just bought a Remington Ultimate or
Speaker 1: I've got an old night and for some reason I
Speaker 1: want to start to run. You know, bullet to boar type,
Speaker 1: you know, a fit bullet, How do you go? What
Speaker 1: is that process? Do you have a sample kit you
Speaker 1: send somebody? Is there a way to measure it with
Speaker 1: my micrometer? Like? How does a how does a guy
Speaker 1: figure out if I've got a five.
Speaker 2: Ozho one bore a fifty cal like I really don't
Speaker 2: see any advantage to getting a sizing dye and going
Speaker 2: straight up with the bullet to bar like the bullet
Speaker 2: to bar in at fifty like fifty or pretty much
Speaker 2: only running.
Speaker 3: I'm for l kunning. But you know that that bullet and.
Speaker 2: The bliss, like the bliss the available blistic coefficients. I
Speaker 2: you know, we're we're talking guns that aren't rated for
Speaker 2: smokeless two, so you're locked in the black horn like that.
Speaker 3: You're not?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the you know, it's all about speed and
Speaker 2: blistic coefficient right for and obviously accuracy, but you're you're
Speaker 2: not going to find a higher BC full bore fifty
Speaker 2: cow bullet to shoot than like the hornity board driver
Speaker 2: or the Fury Like They're all going to be in
Speaker 2: that that same uh, same class of BC. So so
Speaker 2: at that point I wouldn't recommend buying a sizing diet
Speaker 2: for a fifty cow to mess around with. I would
Speaker 2: I would pick up one of those.
Speaker 3: Bullets and universal fits and just go on that.
Speaker 2: Now you get into the forty five col you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's where uh, you know you can you can
Speaker 2: definitely get a ballistic coefficient bump going to the you know,
Speaker 2: the lead the copper jacket lead core bullets like the
Speaker 2: narrowhead XLD line. I think we're at like a point
Speaker 2: four g one BC on our three hundred grain bullet,
Speaker 2: So it's a you know, pretty pretty big jump over
Speaker 2: like a power belt or the horn the hornity. I
Speaker 2: think they're advertising that at point three one five g one,
Speaker 2: which is is still really good for two hundred eighty
Speaker 2: five grain bullet, you know historically, but it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's a whatever, a twenty five percent hit over over
Speaker 2: our three hundred grain uh and then you you you
Speaker 2: can build the pressure, get your speed up more in
Speaker 2: that full bore. But the process with that really is
Speaker 2: really you can hoping, you know, buy We offer them
Speaker 2: in a couple of different diameters. You can buy them
Speaker 2: and hope you get lucky, but really the best way
Speaker 2: unless you have a you know, an aftermarket like a
Speaker 2: brock barrel or unbarrel, something that's cut rifle and has
Speaker 2: held the dimension super close, or where our pretty size
Speaker 2: bullets would work, you're you're going to be needing to
Speaker 2: buy a sizing die, which the dye is adjustables. You
Speaker 2: you know, you start pull your breech plug and just
Speaker 2: start twisting to die down, running the bullet through on
Speaker 2: your press or like a lead hand press, until you
Speaker 2: get a consistent, easy, like firm one hand like you're
Speaker 2: looking for about eight to ten pounds, so like the
Speaker 2: palm of your hand on the ram rod is the
Speaker 2: loading pressure you're looking for.
Speaker 1: Gotcha.
Speaker 2: And then depending on the ignition system, you know, like
Speaker 2: a shotgun primer, you're probably going to benefit from a
Speaker 2: wad like either a veggie wad or a wool wod
Speaker 2: between the powder and the primer just to help with
Speaker 2: the initial seal and then optraating. If you're with our
Speaker 2: ignition system which is more efficient where you're using higher
Speaker 2: pressure like blackhorn too a nine or or smoke lists,
Speaker 2: you probably get away without the wad or that that
Speaker 2: load's going to take off and snap seal that bullet
Speaker 2: into the rifling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the bull I'm shooting is universal fit.
Speaker 1: Is that basically that little plastic piece on the butt
Speaker 1: of bullet, is that acting as the wad and ceiling
Speaker 1: stealing everything up? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, similar to what I think it's the the I
Speaker 2: I really haven't got too much into the design of those,
Speaker 2: you know that that more like universal fit, so I
Speaker 2: think it. But it does obviously it It acts as
Speaker 2: a buffer, right, So it is similar similar to the watt.
Speaker 2: I would say, maybe it's a little different in that,
Speaker 2: like those bullets are designed to be super like you're not.
Speaker 2: You're not getting any friction around the bullet like it
Speaker 2: are very little, right, the primary amount is at the
Speaker 2: base there, and it's a it's a much tighter fit
Speaker 2: than are the wad we're using between the bullet and
Speaker 2: the primer. But yeah, it's mechanics are essentially the same.
Speaker 1: Luke, Is there any and maybe you don't know, but
Speaker 1: is there any truth behind? Like you do a lot
Speaker 1: of reading and then I actually called the day I
Speaker 1: was talking to you, I called the the owner of
Speaker 1: theory and he I want to be careful my words,
Speaker 1: and so many people get to listen to this, but
Speaker 1: basically I'm gonna take the cliff notes version is you
Speaker 1: have to push some of these universal fits a little
Speaker 1: harder because you get a little bit of a swell
Speaker 1: out of them, or you kind of get that pressure
Speaker 1: behind them and that forces the rifling, so the load easy,
Speaker 1: but on the way out, they're actually going to swell
Speaker 1: a little bit at the button start to touch. Is that, well, it's.
Speaker 2: An opteration I'm talking about, so where they generally speaking
Speaker 2: on a on a universal fit bullet or like our ones,
Speaker 2: where you're sizing them to the to the barrel, Like
Speaker 2: the harder you run them, the more accurate they're gonna be.
Speaker 2: So that that's where it is really important to follow
Speaker 2: your you know, your manufacturers recommendations for safe loads and stuff,
Speaker 2: because guys will start shooting and they're like it, you know,
Speaker 2: just throw out numbers like ninety grains was good, ninety
Speaker 2: five grains was better, and they're like, you know.
Speaker 3: It just loves it, so it must be fine. Like no,
Speaker 3: it will.
Speaker 2: Generally continue to shoot better the harder harder you run them,
Speaker 2: just because they do need to get that kick to
Speaker 2: bump out and swell into the rifleing.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, and and some of that just just brought up
Speaker 1: an idea. You know, we always talk when we're reloading
Speaker 1: or trying to find a perfect load for our big rifles.
Speaker 1: You know nodes where it's all right, at twenty eight
Speaker 1: hundred it's got really good, but then we can get
Speaker 1: a different node at like twenty nine to thirty that
Speaker 1: sits just as good, but in the middle it sucked.
Speaker 1: As you're developing these loads, you're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what the right you know, because because I could like
Speaker 1: I just went to I shouldn't even say this, but
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm not claiming you, but between the
Speaker 1: owner of Fury and I can't even remember his name,
Speaker 1: or you and everybody on the internet, they're like, just
Speaker 1: what the arrowhead breeches go to one oh six by way, like,
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't have did that, but that's that's how I
Speaker 1: did it. And then to be safe, you should have
Speaker 1: maybe went.
Speaker 2: It well, I mean old Remington before they you know,
Speaker 2: went bankrupt and all that. That was like if you
Speaker 2: got someone on the phone that was their recommended max
Speaker 2: for black Horn two A nine out of Remington Ultimate.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's quite a bit more than than
Speaker 2: the all you know, the recommended max you're going to
Speaker 2: see out of some of the you know, the night
Speaker 2: mussloaders and traditions. Right. So that's where you you know
Speaker 2: that you just can't take a blanket load with blackhorn
Speaker 2: and using it in every mussloader. Right. But uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: that I mean, that's that's been a great, great load
Speaker 2: with the fear of universal fits out of a out
Speaker 2: of a Remington Ultimate. But I guess taking a step
Speaker 2: back and talking about load development in muzzloaders, where we
Speaker 2: see much more consistency across like all Remington Ultimates, we don't.
Speaker 2: We don't even do load development in our customs because
Speaker 2: you're you're getting rid of so many variables with a
Speaker 2: muzzloader versus a rifle where you know, the bullets fit
Speaker 2: to the barrel, there's no throat, there's no headspace, there's
Speaker 2: no you know, neck tension, just all those handles you
Speaker 2: have to twist on a center fire to get accuracy
Speaker 2: are gone. So I could see like if if you know,
Speaker 2: I've I've over the years, I've seen variation and lots
Speaker 2: of powder, right, Blackcorn is notorious for that. So at times,
Speaker 2: you know, if if you get a you know, if
Speaker 2: you're if you're seeing something that doesn't make sense with
Speaker 2: the load that shoots another guns.
Speaker 3: It might just be variation in the lot.
Speaker 2: But we're you know, we're buying eight pound jugs of
Speaker 2: powder and shooting our guns out of there. So it
Speaker 2: and there's no like every gun is basically the same.
Speaker 2: So if if the load doesn't shoot in one gun,
Speaker 2: it's it's not the load, like it's we built, we
Speaker 2: did something wrong with the gun. There's there's just no
Speaker 2: value in doing ladders and stuff like that. And you know,
Speaker 2: especially a custom as a loader. So what I guess
Speaker 2: so and generally like if if you do see like
Speaker 2: a load like a fear a universal fit that shoots
Speaker 2: really good in the Remics and Ultimate, you know in
Speaker 2: most Remington Ultimates and you get one doesn't shoot good,
Speaker 2: you may have run into a situation where it's not
Speaker 2: Tweaking the powder isn't going to solve anything. You just
Speaker 2: have a I see, the biggest issue is bore diameter variation,
Speaker 2: where a looser fit or a tighter fit is gonna
Speaker 2: skew things. So really you know, you may you may
Speaker 2: be able to put a band aid on it by
Speaker 2: tweaking the powder up or down, but really tweaking the
Speaker 2: diameter of the projectile you fit to get a better
Speaker 2: a better fit in the barrel is really the easy solution.
Speaker 1: You gotcha. So back to the load development. Let's just say,
Speaker 1: you know, I buy a bullet, I buy some powder
Speaker 1: you just mentioned, like they continue to probably shoot better
Speaker 1: until you start to probably approach some pressure issues like
Speaker 1: how how should a guy or a gal that's developing
Speaker 1: a load, like what is that balance? Like should it
Speaker 1: be recommended? You know, manufacturers recommendation max like don't get close,
Speaker 1: you know, don't exceed that. I mean, that's obviously the
Speaker 1: legal advice you're gonna give. Like how like like I'm
Speaker 1: at one six by weight? Should I have tried one
Speaker 1: of weight by weight? Because you know fur he says
Speaker 1: it's okay. You know your breech is okay with it.
Speaker 1: Remington's guns okay with it? Like is there? Should I
Speaker 1: have tried it and see if it shoots better or
Speaker 1: that much more speed? Or like how does how does
Speaker 1: a guy determine like I need to stop?
Speaker 2: It's I mean, obviously it's a legal answer, but it's
Speaker 2: also just the I mean, really the common sense answer,
Speaker 2: safe answer, just because there there really aren't the same
Speaker 2: handles on the muzzloader to identify pressure. You know, I
Speaker 2: think everyone operated under the you know, the old I
Speaker 2: think growing up you probably heard that too, Like you
Speaker 2: can't overload a muzzloader, right, It's just gonna blow the
Speaker 2: unber powder out the end of the barrel. And that's
Speaker 2: that's definitely not the case with with blackhorn to a
Speaker 2: nine and obviously smokeless powder especially, but you you definitely
Speaker 2: can over pressure with blackhorn. So yeah, foul follow follow
Speaker 2: the manufact recommendations. I don't really see a ton of
Speaker 2: value in doing like a load where like starting low
Speaker 2: in the range and working up just because you're not
Speaker 2: gonna there's no pressure signs to see. There's not like
Speaker 2: a tight bore like you could run into at the center,
Speaker 2: fires or brass case capacity all that stuff. So I
Speaker 2: think you're generally fine going to the max or whatever
Speaker 2: your manufacturer recommends.
Speaker 1: Got And there's so there's you know, like like on
Speaker 1: the high power rifles, you know, we get ejector marks,
Speaker 1: we get primers bumping out, we get some signs like
Speaker 1: on a muzzloader. There's nothing on your guys modules, nothing
Speaker 1: on the old original Rimington modules, nothing on like a
Speaker 1: shot done, you know, a two to nine disc. Like
Speaker 1: you're pretty much just stuck with just having to run
Speaker 1: manufacturer recommendations because you're not going to see any signs leading.
Speaker 2: Right, Like our modules kind of look like a case
Speaker 2: head where you can't actually you know, create pressure signs
Speaker 2: on them.
Speaker 3: But generally that's.
Speaker 2: Like way past asked where where the actually is because
Speaker 2: the breach plug hides some of the some of the pressure.
Speaker 2: That's it's not truly a rifle case type system. So yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's just not good handles to read pressure, gotcha.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And then kind of my I guess my
Speaker 1: last question. You know, bolt selection. We we we were
Speaker 1: limited by laws a little bit, you know lead up here,
Speaker 1: you know, jacketed for what we're doing, you know relatively
Speaker 1: what I would call you know, in your world short
Speaker 1: range muzzle loading, you know, two hundred yards and the like.
Speaker 1: Is there any inherent like issue with running suppose or
Speaker 1: versus power belts versus the borlocks versus like a barrel
Speaker 1: fit type bullet, Like at some point like or or
Speaker 1: do you believe, like suppose they're still not as accurate
Speaker 1: as is some of these others.
Speaker 2: You know, talking about when I converted that savage send
Speaker 2: mL two to forty five cal. Back in the day
Speaker 2: I was, I was running a sabo, a two hundred
Speaker 2: gree sst uh from hornety in a sabo, and I
Speaker 2: shot some ridiculously small groups. You you run into two
Speaker 2: issues you have to be aware of, Like, barrel heat
Speaker 2: is a big factor. You know, a lot of guys
Speaker 2: are doing their their look you know, they're testing and
Speaker 2: stuff in August when it's one hundred degrees and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, as the perform the pressure, the performance of
Speaker 2: the muzzler goes up. But even uh, you know, more
Speaker 2: conventional muzzleaders are slug guns. I think looking back when
Speaker 2: I was in high school trying to get a two
Speaker 2: hundred yard slug gun and doing a lot of my
Speaker 2: shooting in July and August, I think I would I
Speaker 2: can recall lots of times where i'd have to you know,
Speaker 2: the first two shots print really close together, and then
Speaker 2: the the third shot would be six inches off. And
Speaker 2: I believe that was probably barrel heat disrupting the the
Speaker 2: integrity of the SABO, but as long as long as
Speaker 2: we actually I just talked to a customer yesterday that
Speaker 2: was having ignition issues Remington's seven hundred mL they're they're
Speaker 2: old muzzleload or using one of our shot and primer systems,
Speaker 2: and he was using a Harvester Black crush rib, which
Speaker 2: is a it was a great SABO, but he was
Speaker 2: using the Barnes U T Easy bullet, which that bullet
Speaker 2: I can anyway, I'll make it a short story. It
Speaker 2: was an undersized bullet in a in a SABO that's
Speaker 2: designed to load easy. So I think my guess is
Speaker 2: it was probably taking them about one finger on the
Speaker 2: ramrod to seat the bullet. And he had ignition issues.
Speaker 2: But I was explaining to him like, even if you
Speaker 2: were to get it to go bang like, your accuracy
Speaker 2: would probably suck because your your fit was so loose.
Speaker 2: So that's where it. You can definitely obtain great accuracy
Speaker 2: with sabos. You just have to pay attention and you
Speaker 2: might have to, you know, experiment a little that to
Speaker 2: find the right save on bullet combo that fits fits
Speaker 2: your bore.
Speaker 1: Well, gotcha, Well, I think we went through all the
Speaker 1: listener Q and as we made it and made it
Speaker 1: about an hour. Is there anything else like we didn't
Speaker 1: cover that's important? You know? We you know, triggers are triggers.
Speaker 1: We've talked about ignition systems, like you say, when I've
Speaker 1: I've been amazed just because I've been away from muzzloaders
Speaker 1: for so long, and you hinted to it that we're
Speaker 1: getting to the point where some of these muscloaters can
Speaker 1: be as accurate and more accurate than some of these
Speaker 1: high powered rifles just because you are taking away you know,
Speaker 1: you know, case issues, you know, all these other issues
Speaker 1: that are kind of taken care of. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like the diesel versus the gasoline motor. Right, we took
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff apart, and it's easier to
Speaker 1: work on, easier to diagnose, and maybe easier to get
Speaker 1: to run at times. Is there you know what's next
Speaker 1: for muzzloaders? Are we? Are we? There? Is there anything
Speaker 1: else you want to talk talk about the matters that
Speaker 1: we didn't cover here? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I you know, I guess just you
Speaker 2: know the one uh not even related to performance, but
Speaker 2: I always like to throw it out there is you
Speaker 2: know make sure you're using the witness mark on your ramrod.
Speaker 2: You know, that's number one. I think safety issue with
Speaker 2: muzzleloaders is guys double loading and a witness mark, which
Speaker 2: if you don't know what that is, that's you know,
Speaker 2: just a mark on your rod that's flush with the
Speaker 2: muzzle when it's loaded, so you can identify a double load.
Speaker 2: And every you know, everyone thinks I'll never do that,
Speaker 2: but it's you know, you get on all the pilot
Speaker 2: talking to a buddy or whatever. Definitely, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: something to watch out for. But yeah, I mean as
Speaker 2: far as we're muzzleloaters go next, I mean I think
Speaker 2: higher BC bullets that are are less sensitive the bore diameter. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, is a big opportunity if someone can come
Speaker 2: up with that. But it's you know, there's there's just
Speaker 2: a whole you know, host of issues where overcoming that
Speaker 2: and still being able to handle higher pressures and stuff.
Speaker 2: So I mean, that's probably the biggest deficiency I see
Speaker 2: right now, if you know, if even call it a deficiency,
Speaker 2: biggest opportunity for making making them easier to shoot at distance.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's it's kind I mean, like we
Speaker 2: talked about it's crazy over the last decade, how you
Speaker 2: know how fast the advancements have happened and where we're
Speaker 2: at now, you know, if we miss any questions, I like,
Speaker 2: you know, I like to do Sunday Q and as
Speaker 2: once in a while on Instagram, so I'm pretty accessible
Speaker 2: that way if somebody wants to hop on there and
Speaker 2: watch out for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how else can they get ahold of you? Luke?
Speaker 1: You we usually close up, but how do they get
Speaker 1: a hold of you?
Speaker 2: And yeah, we're yeah, we're on Instagram, Facebook, all that,
Speaker 2: Arrowhead Rifles dot Com. Uh yeah, that's uh yeah, we're
Speaker 2: on most of the inter webs.
Speaker 1: So you did bring I'm gonna I'm gonna ask another question,
Speaker 1: even though we're past the part of clinic closing this up,
Speaker 1: because you brought up the witness mark and you know,
Speaker 1: growing up pirate ex pellets. You know your dad, my
Speaker 1: dad was don't crush the pellets, you know. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: there's this balance of you know, too tight versus do
Speaker 1: you keep smashing it? Do you you know black horn
Speaker 1: two and nine, you've got loose powder that should kind
Speaker 1: of self level as long as your gun, you know,
Speaker 1: is up, Like, is there a right or wrong answer,
Speaker 1: Like should you is it kind of a should be
Speaker 1: smashing the tip of the bowlt in there? You know
Speaker 1: what's the right or should it just be like you
Speaker 1: said that ten pounds down when it tightens out?
Speaker 2: Issue for a consistency. I mean there are guys that
Speaker 2: have done studies, you know, experimenting, and you can't influence
Speaker 2: your velocity and stuff by how hard hard you seat
Speaker 2: the bullet. So I I think there's there's almost like
Speaker 2: a Torter crunch gauge out there. There's one guy that
Speaker 2: sells where they'll you know, pop when you hit a
Speaker 2: certain pressure at the bottom. But I just go for it,
Speaker 2: you know, consistent push at the end, trying to keep
Speaker 2: that consistent.
Speaker 1: Go to you, You're probably gonna be like just shake
Speaker 1: your head. Mine's like you just kind of don't grab
Speaker 1: the robbit. You just kind of like three little taps
Speaker 1: but not very hard, just with like you know, one
Speaker 1: finger on each side like a pencil and like three
Speaker 1: taps and like I should.
Speaker 2: Be good little uh, I'll make that joke.
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're like there's three and then you're kind of
Speaker 1: looking at your witness mark and you're like, I think
Speaker 1: it's you're like, put your head down. I think it's
Speaker 1: in the same spot as last time.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean that's so that's the thing with
Speaker 2: Blackhorn is following metrically, it's super inconsistent, right, so you're
Speaker 2: you're witness mark.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's close, it's.
Speaker 2: It's kind of move slightly and that's that's where Yeah,
Speaker 2: definitely Blackhorn is is better doing it by way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gotcha. No, I really appreciate having you on, Luke.
Speaker 1: Like I say, this is I feel like I know rifles.
Speaker 1: I don't know rifles like any of you builders or
Speaker 1: anything like that. I feel like I know them, but
Speaker 1: like muszloaders are still kind of a mystery to me
Speaker 1: because I'm just kind of getting back into taking advantage
Speaker 1: of some of our seasons. So I really appreciate you
Speaker 1: having you're having you on, you know, sharing your knowledge
Speaker 1: and you know how people can get ahold of you.
Speaker 1: And yeah, good luck with any other hunts you have
Speaker 1: this year, and uh with the business, and and really
Speaker 1: appreciate you're joining us here.
Speaker 3: Appreciate it. Yeah, it's alright, on fun catching up, all right,
Speaker 3: take care of luc