1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: A warning. This episode contains content that may be disturbing 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: to some listeners. Some names are censored for privacy reasons. 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: Killing Joeyne the way she was killed, somebody with a 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: sexual dysfunction ended up in that apartment and it just 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: didn't go well. For decades, Melissa da Bore believed that 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 1: somebody was Rodney Lincoln since late she says she knows 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: with every fiber of her being it's not him, it's 8 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: somebody else. Who do you think killed your mom? Tomming 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:43,959 Speaker 1: Lintels put out a doubt. I'm Leah Rothman. This is 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: the real killer? Episode seven Tommy or Who? Hello, Hello, Ianne, 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: how are you doing well? Thank you? I am definitely 12 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: not the first person who's asked who killed joe An 13 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 1: Tate and attacked young Melissa and Renee. But because Melissa 14 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: now believes Tommy land Sells as the perpetrator, I need 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: to learn more about him, so I go to Diane Fanning. 16 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: She's the author who was interviewed on Crime Watch Daily 17 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: in about her extensive research and six years worth of 18 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: phone calls, letters, and at least twenty in person interviews 19 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: she did with him for her book Through the Window. 20 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: It was Diane's interview, among other things that had such 21 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: a big impact on Melissa. Tell me a little bit 22 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: about your background when you how you became interested in 23 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: writing and becoming a true crime writer. I had been 24 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: um the victim of an abduction attempt when I was 25 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: nine years old. I was walking to the local um 26 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: little country store near where we lived. The man asked 27 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: for directions. He reached out when I came over to 28 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: look at his map, and he grabbed hold of my 29 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: upper arm. He tried to pull me in the car 30 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: I was fighting in, but it was it was a 31 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: losing battle. Just then, another car came over the hill 32 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: and laid on his horn. The guy took off with 33 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: his car door still open, and I memorized the license 34 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: plate number. When I went home, I told my mother. 35 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: She called the police and they stopped that man and 36 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: found the evidence in his trunk of the sexual assault 37 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 1: murder of an eight year old a month before. Oh 38 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: my god, that is terrifying. It was. It was weird 39 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: because instead of so much wallowing in that fear, my 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: way of coping was to get information. You know. I 41 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: was getting books out of library that were way above 42 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: my head about criminal psychology and stuff, and trying to 43 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: find answers to my two big questions, why me? And 44 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: how could anybody do this? Years later, questions like these 45 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: will come up again. I've been interested in writing for 46 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: quite some time since my eighth grade teacher told me 47 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: I had talent, but I didn't really get busy with 48 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: it till I spent a lot of time in radio, 49 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: television and advertising agency work, and then moved to nonprofit 50 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: and then a case came along that rang my chimes. 51 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: That case started in the middle of the night on 52 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: December thirty one outside Del Rio, Texas. A man comes 53 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: through an open window, and, although there's a house full 54 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: of people, he enters the room where two young girls 55 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: are sleeping. On the bottom bunk is thirteen year old 56 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: Kayleeen Katie Harris. The man sexually assaults her, slashes her 57 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: neck twice, and stabs her sixteen times. He then moves 58 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: on to her friend, who's on the top bunk, ten 59 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: year old Crystal Searles. He cuts her throat, She falls 60 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: to the ground and plays dead. The man eventually leaves, 61 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: and Crystal, believing everyone in the house has been murdered, 62 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: runs barefoot a quarter of a mile down the dirt 63 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 1: road to the nearest neighbor at the hospital with a 64 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: severed windpipe and grazed carotid artery. Crystal works with a 65 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: police sketch artist and comes up with a composite drawing 66 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: of the perpetrator. Within a day, Crystal has shown a 67 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: photo lineup and he picks out thirty six year old 68 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: Tommy land Cells. Cells, a used car salesman who had 69 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: met the Harris family at church and had been to 70 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: their home on multiple occasions, is apprehended and confesses that 71 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: they build the under rated or murdering. Later that day, 72 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: he agrees to go with investigators to the Harris house. 73 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: Dan Dank January second or two thousand, want to BM, 74 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: we're back at the crime scene. You're doing it well 75 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: through your own free will. Oh yeah. During the grainy 76 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: videotaped walk through of the crime scene, Tommy land Cells 77 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: is not handcuffed. He's husky, he's got a dark brown 78 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: curly mullet and a scruffy beer heard. He's wearing jeans 79 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: and a multicolored shirt. He shows investigators how he crawled 80 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: through the window, walked through the house, then chose Katie 81 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: and Crystal's room to enter. The video is chilling. From 82 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: time to time, Tommy Lincells looks directly into the camera. 83 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: His tone is a matter of fact. At one point, 84 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: he stops and ties his shoe. I'm stood a minute 85 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 1: and then I look in here. There's a two girls 86 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: sleeping in here. I woke this girl up. How did 87 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: you do that? Up? Up? I understand? And then she 88 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: jumped up. Well, no, no, before they I could have brow, 89 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't say, uh what if she was wearing it? 90 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: And Georgia and and she jumped up and sought this 91 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: girl to go get her mom m. And when you 92 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: made this girl, when you say this girl was a 93 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: girl's leaping in the top potcoms and she tried to 94 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: come over here. When I stay right here somewhere, you 95 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: got a nice when you would just say what kind 96 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: of do you have? That big? But your knife time? 97 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: And then she got jumped back and then you know, ye, 98 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: no cut her flash right here. With an imaginary knife 99 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: in his right hand, Tommy land Cells slashes the throat 100 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: of the investigator and she fell down right here. And 101 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: then NA think I've reached down here and done it. 102 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: One more tag in this more a little girl. This 103 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: one now also here, standing to the left of the 104 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: top bunk where the pillow would be, Cells again uses 105 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: his right hand to make a slashing motion. This is 106 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: just well wearing. This girl still sleeping a lot. She moving, 107 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 1: trying to get away or something. He's completely cavalier. There's 108 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: no remorse in his voice. It's haunting. I'm glad this 109 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: is over with. I'm glad it's over. Do you think um, 110 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: you would continue me? Oh? I know what that there. 111 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: Over the next few months, Tommy Lynn Cells can fuss 112 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: to killing men, women, and children from New York to 113 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: Los Angeles using knives, guns, baseball bats, and his bare hands. 114 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: He gets by working as a mechanic, a carne and 115 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: a day labor. He also panhandles, and he evades capture 116 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: by hopping trains, hitchhiking, and stealing cars. In the course 117 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: of almost twenty years, the self proclaimed Coast to Coast 118 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: Killer confesses to more than seventy crimes. Texas Rangers can 119 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: only verify two. Diane Fanning learns about Tommulin Cells in 120 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: the year two thousand. Here's Diane again. I did not 121 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: find out about Crystal Searles and Katie Harris's harrowing experiences 122 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: until after Tommulan Cells had been convicted and was given 123 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: the death sentence, and that's when I wanted to write 124 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: about him. At first, all he wanted was money. I 125 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: also then went through a phase with him where all 126 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: he wanted to do was talk sex to me on 127 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: the phone, which was not something I was interested in. 128 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: Once I got to the point that he was calling 129 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: me his friend, I was able to get extensive information. 130 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,239 Speaker 1: But the thing about Cells that I found very odd 131 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: is some days I had a hard time getting him 132 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: focusing on crimes because he just wanted to joke around. 133 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: And then other times he would go out of his 134 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: way to try to shock and disgust me. He would 135 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: become very very graphic with the description of how he 136 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: killed someone um and at other times he was just 137 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: very matter of fact talking about his crimes. And the 138 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: only time that I really he made me feel anything 139 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: other than kind of discussed was when he talked to 140 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: me about what happened to him in his childhood. It 141 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: was horrible how he grew up, and it was so 142 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: horrible I found it not to be very credible. So 143 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: I called his mother and I said listen. I want 144 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: to tell you what Tommy has said about his childhood, 145 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: and I want you to tell me you know what's 146 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: not right and what you remember. And we got all 147 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: through it and she did not once contradict anything that 148 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: he said. All she said at the end was, well, 149 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: there are a lot of kids that have it worse, 150 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: and they don't go out killing people. On June nineteen 151 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,719 Speaker 1: sixty four, Tommy land Cells is born a twin. When 152 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: they're eighteen months old, his sister becomes ill and dies. 153 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: He sent to live with his aunt. Eventually his mom 154 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: wants him back, but that doesn't last long. She allowed 155 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: him to go live with a pedophile. And did she 156 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: know that this man was a pedophile? Or she claims 157 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: now that she didn't, but I it was a small town. 158 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: I think she had to know that. The only people 159 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: this man spent time with we're young boys. And um 160 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: Tommy told me about the experience of his first night 161 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: and when it was over, how he curled up in 162 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: his bed and cried and imagined himself on a rocket 163 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: ship shooting out into space. My heart broke listening to him. 164 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: I think it was the most genuine he ever was 165 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: with me, and So how long did this abuse go 166 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: on at the hands of this pedophile. I think it 167 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: was about three three and a half years. He was 168 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: about seven, and um, once he was ten, he sort 169 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: of outgrew his appeal to the pedophile mhm. And then 170 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: he went back with his mother for a while. And 171 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: at one point she was running a bar and she 172 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: was selling Tommy out of the bar. She was literally 173 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: her child. Yeah, she called him her little wore two 174 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: men and women. I think it was mostly two women 175 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: at that time. So what happens next? He leaves home 176 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: at fifteen and starts just wandering. Um he uh went 177 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: down to Mississippi and accidentally killed a man there. And 178 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: he was out in California and got into a fight 179 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: with another man and he had an ice pick and 180 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: he killed the man. Um. Neither one of those were 181 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: planned murders, but he found out from that experience how 182 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: satisfying was to him to be able to have the 183 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: power to take a person's life. Tell me about the Dardin's. 184 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: This is a particularly gruesome story. It takes place in 185 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: seven in Ana, Illinois, about ninety miles outside St. Louis, Oh. 186 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: The Dardin's were a horrible dark miserable case. I am 187 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: certain that Sells committed that crime. Uh. He told me 188 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: that the reason he targeted the Dardin's was because the 189 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: father in the family had sexually propositioned him. Now, Sells 190 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: imagines things from people. He assumes what they're thinking based 191 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: on the way his dis ordered mind works. There is 192 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: nothing and all the history of Mr Dardine that shows 193 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: any indication whatsoever that he had any interested men. It 194 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: just isn't there. He sat out not far from the 195 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: home on a little rise, and there was a whole 196 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: big patch of cigarette butts. The police could don't just 197 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: where the person sat. And the house was for sale 198 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: at the time, so Tommy approached the house as a 199 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: potential buyer. They let him in. He pulled it on. 200 00:16:53,520 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: He made Elayin Ruby Dardine tie up her husband. Now 201 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: she was very pregnant, like eight months pregnant, and he 202 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: he took her and tied her arms, tied up their 203 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: little three year old boy, and it said that they 204 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: better stay here or their father won't go back a lot. 205 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: So then he took Mr Jardine two location a little 206 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: ways away, and he shot him and cut off his penis. 207 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: He then returned to the house, where he let Elaine 208 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: watch while he used a baseball bat to beat the 209 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: three year old boy to death. Then he started beating Lane. 210 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: At some point in the middle of her beating, she 211 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: went into labor. Tommy sat back and watched, and once 212 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: the baby was born, he helped it up and beat 213 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: it with a baseball bat, while that poor mother had 214 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: to watch the depth of a child again. He then 215 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: beat her, wrote on her body with a pair of 216 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: scissors and cram the whole baseball bat insider before he left. God, 217 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: it's just so awful. There aren't even words. No, it 218 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: needs to be said that. Many believe a lot of 219 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: Tommy Lindsell's confessions are bs, and people are split on 220 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: whether or not he committed heinous acts in the Dardine case. 221 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: Some say he knew details which were never released to 222 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: the public, Others say that's not true. Reportedly, tommulin Cells 223 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: said he could lead investigators to missing evidence in the case, 224 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: but because the state of Texas doesn't allow death row 225 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: prisoners to be taken across state lines, that never happened. 226 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: Due to insufficient evidence. Tommulan Cells was never charged with 227 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: the Dardine murders. Cells only had one murder conviction, and 228 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: it was for that slaying of Katie Harris in Del Rio, Texas. 229 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: In two thousand three. Cells was indicted but never tried 230 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: for killing thirteen year old Stephanie Mahaney in Springfield, Missouri, 231 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: and he did plead guilty to capital murder for killing 232 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: another young girl, nine year old Mary Beatrice Perez. She 233 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: had been abducted, sexually assaulted, and strangled to death in 234 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: San Antonio in April, eight months before and a hundred 235 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: and fifty miles away from the Katie Harris and Crystal 236 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: Searle scene in Del Rio. And even though there was 237 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: a barrier between you two, you and Tommy them, cells, 238 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: did you feel? I never exactly knew which cells I 239 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: would see when I went into that of visitation room. 240 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: And one time I quoted something from a sheriff that 241 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: really made him angry, and he stood up. He pounded 242 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: with those with his fists on the little table surface 243 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: he had there, and he raised his head and looked 244 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: up at me and Leah. I swear the shape of 245 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: his face changed, the color of his eyes change. I 246 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: felt like I was looking at a different person, and 247 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: I realized at that moment that I was seeing what 248 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: is victim soul at the last moment before they died. 249 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: It was terribly frightening. Do you have any of Cells's 250 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: letters nearby? I got, I've got letters. Um. His his 251 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: writing is definitely not polished, but then he didn't learn 252 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: to read and write until he was in prison in 253 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: West Virginia, so it's understandable. Here's an example about how 254 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: did I know about that one murder, Diane. I know 255 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: about a lot more murder than we ever come close 256 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: to talk about. I can pull one a day out 257 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: and not be done for a long time. A murder 258 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: doesn't always have to do with sex or any of 259 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: the norms you all may want to label or tag 260 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: me with. Maybe someone just piss me off and I 261 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: did not want their child to be like them. That's cold. 262 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: I understand. Maybe a more than just one person is 263 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: in prison for the same thing. Wow. And there's something 264 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: else tommylin Sell says about people in prison. He said, 265 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: there are a whole lot of people sitting in prison 266 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: for crimes that I committed and I don't care, Which 267 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: brings us to Rodney Lincoln, Joe and Tate and crime 268 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: Watch Daily. I went on Crime Watch Daily to talk 269 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: about the Rodney Lincoln case. Here is what I think 270 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: about the possibility day of tommyline Cells committing this crime, 271 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: this murder of Joe and Tate it. Tommyline Cells told 272 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: me more than once. There are other crimes I've committed 273 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about because they happened in 274 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: the area of St. Louis and I have family there. 275 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: I will not admit to any one of those. And 276 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: just to be clear, tommyland Cells was from St. Louis, Yes, 277 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: although he traveled all over the country. St Louis was 278 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: his home. That was where his family was, and he 279 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: would not give up any crimes in that area. And 280 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: if his confessions are to be believed, maybe there's more. 281 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: He um had inserted a baseball bat in the Dardine 282 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: case into the woman's body. He had done the same 283 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: with a ranch inside another victim's body. And there was 284 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: Joe Anne with a broomstick. That is a peculiarity of 285 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: a crime that points towards Cells. Melissa said that, you know, 286 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: she first said Bill did it, and then she started 287 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: to remember more details, like Bill drove a yellow taxi, 288 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: and then she said Bill worked on her mom's car, 289 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: and he also then drove a white v W. Any 290 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: of those details ring true with with Cells. Cells was 291 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: working at his uncle's the w dealership in um St. Louis, 292 00:24:52,760 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: repairing volkswagens. Cells was an expert car mechanic. He, even 293 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: when he was in the Del Rio jail, helped fix 294 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: cars for the Sheriff's department. And although Melissa said his 295 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: name was Bill, Cells often just dropped names that weren't 296 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: his and used them for the moment. His father was 297 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: named Williams, so it would be it would be a 298 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: natural thing for him to assume the name Bill. And 299 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: Tommy land Cells also spent time in Hollywood, Remember, Melissa 300 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: said Bill had to There are enough similarities two cells 301 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: means of operation, to cells behavioral patterns, and to the 302 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: connection with his father's name of William You throw all 303 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: these things together. This sounds so much like him. This 304 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: reeks of Tommy land Cells. Does that mean absolute positively 305 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 1: it was Tommy lynd Cells. No, but I think there's 306 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: a very high probability that Tommy land Cells is responsible 307 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: for the murder of Joey and Tate and the assault 308 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: of Melissa and Renee. On April three, at the age 309 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: of forty nine, tommyland Cells is executed by the State 310 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: of Texas. When asked if he wants to make a 311 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: final statement, he reportedly says no, then smiles. The lethal 312 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,199 Speaker 1: injection begins, he closes his eyes and begins to snore. 313 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: Katie Harris's father, who's there that day, tells reporters quote basically, 314 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: the dude just took a nap. Tommyland Cells is pronounced 315 00:26:53,520 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: dead at six pm in after Melissa ricants the Attorney 316 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: General's Office while preparing for that evidentiary hearing in Coal 317 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: County does some digging into Tommy Lynn Cells too. Susan 318 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: Clevinger from the a g. S Office calls one of 319 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: Cells's brothers, Tim Cells. They discussed the Volkswagon repair shop 320 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: where they worked, whether or not Tommy has all of 321 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: his fingers, which he did, remember the funny finger story, 322 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: and they talked about where Cells was in late April 323 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: of nineteen two when Joe and Tate was murdered. Thirty 324 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: three years later, it's obviously hard for Tim to remember. 325 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: He suggests Susan Clevinger speak with his ex wife, Tracy Cells. Hello, Hey, Tracy, 326 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: This is Susan clevinger Um from the Attorney General's Office 327 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: m H. Like with Tim Sell, they spent a lot 328 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: of time trying to nail down whether or not Tommy 329 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: Lindcells was in St. Louis late April. Tracy doesn't remember 330 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: exactly what month in nineteen eight two Tommy was in town, 331 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: but she does remember when he was there. He was 332 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: living at another brother's house. This brother's name is Terry, 333 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: and she remembers one day in particular, they had all 334 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: planned to go to the zoo together. Well, I can 335 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: tell you since there was this this time, and it 336 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: was probably I would say early okay, and Tommy was 337 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: always worn that wanted to go, go, go, and for 338 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: some reason he didn't want to go. And I thought 339 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: that was really that stood out in my mind, because 340 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: he always wanted to go, and this time you couldn't 341 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: get him to go. In that evening when we came home, 342 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: his Terry's wife found her nightgown covered in seaman and 343 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: Terry took him down in the basement and whipped him 344 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: with about And they had a little dog that wouldn't 345 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: come out from under the couch for two weeks. And 346 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: it's his bottom was bleeding, and there's more a lot 347 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: of people just didn't mourn him around. How did you 348 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: How did you feel when he was I mean, what 349 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: what what was your thought process whenever whenever he was 350 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: coming around or he thought he might be staying. Well, 351 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: when I first met him, I just felt like something 352 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: was wearing creepy about him. And I started dating Tim, 353 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: and his mother came to me one night and told 354 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: me that he had tried to get in the shower 355 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: with her and that each after on the shoulder, It 356 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: got in naked and caped her on the shoulder and 357 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: said I'm going to have you. And he tried the 358 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: raper and she fought him off, and the windows were 359 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: open and she was screaming, and he said, all right, 360 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: I'll let you go. I'll let you go, but don't 361 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: tell anyone. And he ran off and he was gone 362 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: for two weeks, and then he came back and everyone 363 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: just acted like nothing ever happened. Yeah, so of course 364 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: naturally you were keeping your guard up whenever he was around, 365 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: or make him or someone else was around. Yeah, then 366 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: it was only something. You know, he would get with 367 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: some girl on and she'd say she's trying to molest 368 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: her child and nobody ever called the police. So nobody 369 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: ever reported that stuff. But I know about you know 370 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: a few different incidents at least um probably five incident 371 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: instances where he molested someone's kid and they didn't even 372 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: report it. Vile and disturbing to say the very least. 373 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: But all that horrendousness aside, the question still remains where 374 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: was tommulin Cells On April nineteen eighty two. According to 375 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: police reports and court documents from Paragold, Jonesboro, and Greene County, Arkansas, 376 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: Tommulan Cells was arrested on April third, n for stealing 377 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: a car. At the time, he's seventeen years old, five 378 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: eight and a hundred and twenty pounds, brown hair, and 379 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: hazel eese. On April fourteen, he pleads guilty and is 380 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: sentenced to two months at Consolidated Youth Services c y 381 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: S in Jonesboro, Arkansas, basically a juvenile hall. This is 382 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: where the controversy comes in. The Attorney General's Office believes 383 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: Tommulin Cells was at c y S serving his two 384 00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: months at the time of Joanne's murder. Others say so fast, 385 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: there's no proof he was actually there, so I called 386 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: Consolidated Youth Services and was told they won't go on 387 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: the record to talk about Tommy land Cells because he 388 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: was a miner at the time. The woman refers me 389 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: to the documents handed over to the Attorney General's office. 390 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: I have those documents, and while they say Tommy lind 391 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: Cells was arrested and sentenced to two months at c 392 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: y S, there's no documentation saying he actually arrived, served 393 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: his time and left two months later. Here's Rodney's attorney, 394 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: Shawn O'Brien. He was supposed to have been in a 395 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: juvenile facility in jones Borough. And I actually talked to 396 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: his lawyer, a man named Harry Truman Moore, who is 397 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: still in the practice of law, who said, who represented 398 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: Tommy Cells on that uh? And he said, yeah, he 399 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: was let out of court and he was supposed to 400 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: show up at that facility, but there's no guarantee that 401 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: he did. Tommulin Sells attorney h. T. More, wrote enoffidavit 402 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: about this, which was submitted to the court. I have 403 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: it and it reads in part this quote. The court 404 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: file does not reflect that Mr Sells was delivered to 405 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: c y S. And I doubt that was done. The 406 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: Sheriff's office was very lax in those days. Even if 407 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: Mr Sells had been delivered to c y s, the 408 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: program was about as secure as a sieve. It was 409 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: overloaded and understaffed. Teenagers walked away all the time, and 410 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: authorities would rarely pursue them. Based on my review of 411 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: the court file and my knowledge of local law enforcement 412 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: institutions and their practices in nineteen eighty two, the only 413 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: conclusion that one can definitely reach from the court file 414 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: in State v. Cells is that he was released from 415 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: the Greene County jail on April fourteen. Anything beyond that 416 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: is speculation. So where was Tommulin Cells on April two? 417 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: Is it possible he left the courthouse on April fourteen 418 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: and stole a car or hitch hiked the roughly two 419 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: and twenty miles back to his hometown of St. Louis 420 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: in those thirteen days before the murder. We may never know. 421 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: Besides Tommulin Cells, there's someone else another potential person of 422 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: interest in joe An Tate's murder and her daughter's brutal attacks. 423 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 1: Steve Yancey. Remember he was Joanne's seventeen year old neighbor 424 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: who came to the house that morning and talked with police. 425 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: I was reading old newspaper articles about the crime, and 426 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: I had, you know, the police reports sitting next to 427 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: me at the same time, and and this name came 428 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: up in both. In two thousand eleven, Nadia Flam journalist 429 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 1: and brand new Midwest Innocence Project investigator is asked to 430 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: look at Rodney Lincoln's case fresh Eyes. Right, Well, she 431 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: sees something that immediately catches her attention. Steve and see 432 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: a neighbor, a teenage neighbor, and he's interviewed and then 433 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, he said, um, that 434 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: he knew Joeyan and that she was perfect. And I 435 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 1: was like, that is weird, Like that's a really weird 436 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: thing to say. Well, so, based on just how weird 437 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: that struck me, I was like, well, this guy was 438 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: like seventeen at the time, Um, but where is he out? 439 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: And lo and behold Steve Yancy, who was in a 440 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: prison in Norton, Kansas. And I was like, Wow, that's interesting. 441 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: So Nadia writes to him requesting an interview, but through 442 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: his attorney, he declines that does not stop. Nadia turns 443 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: out since two thousand eight, Steve Yancy has been in 444 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: prison for a crime he committed with his wife, Tara Yancy. 445 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,439 Speaker 1: And I was like, I wonder what she has to say. 446 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: And so she had no idea what we were there for, 447 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: and she was like, I don't know what this is about. 448 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: But she was perfectly cheerful and nice um, And she 449 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: wasn't like suspicious and weirded out by us at all. 450 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: She just like sat right down and was like, Okay, 451 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: let's go describe her for me. She's like a pleaser, 452 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: like she wants to do what you want her to do. 453 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: She was kind of willing to tell us anything she could. 454 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: And so that when I realized that we needed to 455 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: be really careful about not giving away too much about 456 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 1: too many details, just to see what she organically knows. 457 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: What did Terry Yancy tell you about her crimes? Why 458 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 1: she was in prison? She um. She told us that 459 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: she and Steve when they got married, they lived in 460 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: a house that was just a couple of houses down 461 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: or a block away from her family and some young cousins. 462 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: She said she had had a rough childhood and that 463 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: she told her little cousins that if they ever felt 464 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: unsafe at their house if they just wanted to get away, Like, 465 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: don't run away, just come over to my house and 466 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: you'll be safe here. So her cousins were used to 467 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: coming over and they were like, you know, eight and eleven, 468 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: like just younger kids. And according to Tara, Steve tells 469 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: her to have sex with her eleven year old male cousin, 470 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: and she just said, really, mad afactively, so I had 471 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: sex with my cousin. Tara Yancy's doing time for rape, 472 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 1: and Steve Yancy, whom investigators believed was the ringleader, is 473 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: serving time for kidnapping and sexual battery for the rape 474 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: of Tara's cousin. What else did Tara tell you about 475 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: her relationship with Steve? Had he ever been violent with 476 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: her physical? He said he tried to kill her. She 477 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: said that she was sitting at the computer and she 478 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,480 Speaker 1: was looking something up and he came in and saw 479 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: her at the computer and just somehow like lost it 480 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: and like tossed the computer, grabbed her by a wrist, 481 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: like through her against the wall and put his hand 482 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: on her throat and then like and she just she said, 483 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: she looked at his face and she's like, he's gonna 484 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: kill me. And then some suddenly like that look past 485 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: and he like dropped her, but she was like, he 486 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: could have killed me. Tara shares more about her husband 487 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: and what she learned about him secondhand when she got 488 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: to know his mother. She found out that he had 489 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: raped his He he lived in a house with like 490 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: sisters and stepsisters and stepbrothers and brothers, and he had 491 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: been um like sexually molesting um had just been causing 492 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: really awful chaos at his mother's house, and rather than 493 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: called the police, his mother told Tara that she didn't 494 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: want testifying against him, so she just thought it would 495 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: be best to get him out of the house and 496 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: forget about it. So she sent Steve to live with 497 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 1: his grandmother on Ferrar Street, where joe Anne lived. And 498 00:39:53,200 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: so that explained why Stevency was joe Anne's neighbor, because 499 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,600 Speaker 1: he was living with his grandmother because he had been 500 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:10,400 Speaker 1: kicked out of his house for raping. Those crimes aren't reported, 501 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: but others are. In four in St. Louis County, just 502 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: two years after Joanne's murder and the attack on Melissa 503 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: and Renee, Steve Andy pleads guilty to sodomy and sexual 504 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: abuse in the first degree. Both victims are under fourteen 505 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: years old, and in Jefferson County, he pleads guilty to 506 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,160 Speaker 1: sex abuse and forcible sodomy. He's sentenced to ten years 507 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: in prison, but Nadia wants to know if Steve himself 508 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: ever confessed to Terra he committed any crimes. Nadia is 509 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: in no way prepared for the answers she's about to get. 510 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: And she said, well, um, I know that he killed someone, 511 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: but I don't really I don't really know all the details. 512 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, how did that come out? And 513 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: she said, well, she had found out that he lied 514 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: to her, that he had a that he did have 515 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: a criminal record, and that his criminal record included child 516 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: molestation and she had a kid with him, and so 517 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: she starts poking him about it and bugging him about it, 518 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: and when he finally is like like, fine, I'll tell you. Um, 519 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: she says, he said that he was in a house 520 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: with a woman and two little girls, and in her head, 521 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: the woman seemed like it was a babysitter. But we did, 522 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 1: you know, we weren't correcting her and we were just 523 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:48,280 Speaker 1: like a woman and two girls. And she said the woman, 524 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: um had to go out for a second, like run 525 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,880 Speaker 1: an errand, and while she was gone, Steve started doing 526 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 1: something to one of the girls and was caught in 527 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: the act when she got home, and so we had 528 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: to kill her. And I was like, let else did 529 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: he say? And she's like, you know, he's the kind 530 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,120 Speaker 1: of person if he's told you once, you don't ask again. Um, 531 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: but you know that stood out. I think she she 532 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: said that she did ask again, though, and he said 533 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: it was a bloody mess and if you had seen 534 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: the crime scene photos, you would know it was me. 535 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,399 Speaker 1: And we asked her why she thought he said that, 536 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: and she didn't know. Um, you know, we asked her 537 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: really personal questions about whether he'd ever, during sex, used 538 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,800 Speaker 1: an object on her, whether he was into anal sex, 539 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: whether he just you know, liked weird penetration, and she 540 00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: said that once he put some markers in her vagina 541 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,279 Speaker 1: to see how many would fit, and that it was 542 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: sort of came from the fact that he was ashamed 543 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: about his penis size. But you know, there's still no 544 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: smoking gun here, but it was it was you. I mean, 545 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: Marie and I looked at each other. Are paralegal and 546 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: I were doing this in this interview with Tara, and 547 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: when she said a woman and two little girls like 548 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,839 Speaker 1: I know that, we just both looked at each other 549 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 1: like holy shit. And at that point I felt like, 550 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 1: this is the first time I've ever done this, not 551 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: as a reporter, but as you know, an extension of 552 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: a legal process. And I felt pretty like like a 553 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: pretty big novice, Like what do I do with this? Um? 554 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: So we wrote down with Tara kind of like a 555 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: basic um summary of what she had said, and she 556 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: signed it, and then, you know, I figured we'd take 557 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: this back to the office and let somebody with a 558 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: law degree go from there. Although Terry Yancey has interviewed 559 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: a second time, nothing substantial ever comes from those interviews 560 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: with her, it seems. In two thousand eleven, the Midwest 561 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: Innocence Project put their resources into focusing on the DNA motion, 562 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: not Steve Yancy. Then there is a changing of the 563 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: guard at m I P, and with a new attorney 564 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: in charge, they go back to investigate Terry Yancy's claims, 565 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: but before they know it, Melissa recants. So could it 566 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,280 Speaker 1: be Steve Yancy? I mean, could he have been describing 567 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,160 Speaker 1: the Joe and Tate murder scene to his wife Tara. 568 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: Sounds close, but it doesn't seem to totally fit Melissa's memory. Remember, 569 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: Melissa said she woke up to her mom lying on 570 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: the floor. The man then attacked her before moving on 571 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: to her little sister, Renee. Here's former m IP investigator 572 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: Dan Grosthouse. We know what Melissa recalled, we don't what 573 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: about her little sister. We don't know what happened to 574 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: her little sister before. That's such, never considered that because 575 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: Melissa right, we don't know what the perpetrator may have 576 00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: done to Renee prior to what happened to Melissa. But 577 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,480 Speaker 1: if Steveancy's the guy, why when Melissa's in the hospital 578 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: and shown his photo didn't she pick him out as 579 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: their attacker? And why didn't police look at him more closely? 580 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 1: Here's Nadia again. I think you know what really gets 581 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: me about Cedancy is that he um couldn't He was 582 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: just too young to be a suspect. But and so 583 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: he was easily overlooked at the time. Um, you know, 584 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 1: through no fault of investigators or detectives. Um, he didn't 585 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: come up on any radar and he's just a kid. 586 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,840 Speaker 1: So I mean, to me, it's sort of like the 587 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,880 Speaker 1: perfect opportunity to get away with something horrific. On the 588 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: other hand, it's not really his m o. You know, 589 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: he likes doing manipulating people, you know, assaulting children. Um, 590 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: but he's never There's no other murders he's suspected of. 591 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: There's not like anything extremely violent in his history that 592 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: I know of. Tera Yancy was released from prison in 593 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: I reached out to her to see if she'd be 594 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,480 Speaker 1: willing to talk, but I haven't heard back, and I 595 00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: wrote to Steve Yancy. He actually wrote me back about Joanne. 596 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 1: He writes, quote, yes, I knew her. I was just 597 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: a teenage kid dating a thirtysomething woman. It was only 598 00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: a few weeks or so before the crime happened. Here's 599 00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,920 Speaker 1: Dan again. For him to say he dated Joanne is 600 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: a strong admission of a problem. He was some seventeen 601 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,839 Speaker 1: year old kid and he had no business dating her. 602 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,839 Speaker 1: But that was my suspicion, is that you know, they 603 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:39,479 Speaker 1: were playing around. And there's more from Steve Acy. Quote, yes, 604 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,400 Speaker 1: I was a friend of the family, and no, I 605 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 1: was never a babysitter. But remember Melissa said in that 606 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 1: deposition that a boy from the neighborhood named Stephen used 607 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,920 Speaker 1: to watch her in Renee when Joanne went out, Here's 608 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: Naughtia Again. He babysat for the the girls and he 609 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: had played Uno with them, and that also freeped me 610 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: out because there was an Udo card on the floor 611 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: in one of the crime scene photos. Steveny goes on 612 00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: to say, if you are with the Innocence Project trying 613 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: to help that guy get out of prison, then I 614 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: really have nothing to offer you. He concludes with even 615 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: after all these years, it is still a soft spot. 616 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: They were a shining spot in my young life that 617 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: became a painful memory. Respectfully yours, Steve and Yancy. So 618 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: I write him back asking if he'd be willing to 619 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: talk on the phone. No reply, I write again, this time, 620 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: he responds. Before reading the whole letter. My eyes quickly 621 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,239 Speaker 1: scanned the page looking for keywords and phrases, and they 622 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: land on this quote. I'm going to add your number 623 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 1: and inform you as soon as it's approved so we 624 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:03,839 Speaker 1: can work out a time best for you. Steve Yancey's 625 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:11,440 Speaker 1: going to talk. You absolutely need to go talk to him. Yeah, 626 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: I mean that's crazy, get him talking. If you could 627 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: ask Steve and Yancy anything. What would you ask him? 628 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 1: Are he's a real killer? Next time on the Real Killer? 629 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: And I just remember thinking, if we can't bring Rodney home, 630 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,360 Speaker 1: what are we even doing? Should I even be a 631 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: lawyer anymore? Then a controversy and a call no one 632 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: sees coming, like, what's wrong? She said, well, I just 633 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: called the prison to talk to your dad because he 634 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,879 Speaker 1: never called this morning. And when I asked them why 635 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,799 Speaker 1: my client had called, they told me he couldn't. What 636 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: is happening to Rodney Lincoln? Yeah, Dunmer more confused? Any 637 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,560 Speaker 1: kind in model? I felt like a body in limbo. 638 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: Limbo works in a nice place. The Real Killer is 639 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,400 Speaker 1: a production of a y R Media and I Heart Radio, 640 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and 641 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for a y R Media. Written by me 642 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: Leah Rothman, Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound 643 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: design by Cameron Taggy, mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi, 644 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: Audio engineering by Jesus c Mario, Studio engineering by Tom 645 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: Weir and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media. 646 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,240 Speaker 1: Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for I Heart Radio Chandler Mayze. 647 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about 648 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: it and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or 649 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. H m hm