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Speaker 1: be square. Thanks guys, Thinking Sideways. Welcome. I don't know
Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer to.
Speaker 1: Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking so Oadways.
Speaker 1: I am Joe, your host, joined as always by Steve
Speaker 1: and Devin, and we're of course going to talk about
Speaker 1: another mystery this week. Uh, We're going to talk about
Speaker 1: the mysterious disappearance of a guy named Dave Box, who
Speaker 1: was last seen working the graveyard shift on June nineteenth,
Speaker 1: four at the Fernald Feed Materials production Center in Ohio.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have been wondering what exactly became
Speaker 1: of Dave and why I gotta tell you that I'm
Speaker 1: a little I'm a little upset. Yeah, we're wanting to
Speaker 1: do this one for years, but I never called DIBs
Speaker 1: on it. It's my own fault because I love this
Speaker 1: story as you didn't ever do it. It's exactly. I
Speaker 1: never called dibbs and I never did it, so it's
Speaker 1: my own fault. But I'm excited that we're getting to
Speaker 1: do this because this is a fun one. Well, I've
Speaker 1: obviously you've been thinking about it too, so you come
Speaker 1: up with some good think about this for years, and
Speaker 1: the good news for our listeners is that I get
Speaker 1: to pretend like I've never heard of it before and
Speaker 1: ask all the questions you're asking them. So it's perfect exactly.
Speaker 1: So thank you both for for your enthusiasm. Glad you
Speaker 1: like this one, and also I want to thank Caitlin
Speaker 1: and j w are listeners who suggested this one and
Speaker 1: anybody else who did and somehow got left off our
Speaker 1: list of people to thank. Sorry about that. But first
Speaker 1: of all, I want to say, this story is not
Speaker 1: about Dave Box. It's about Dave Box. Times about Dave Box.
Speaker 1: B o X it's the Dave Box has spelled b
Speaker 1: O c K S. It's a good distinction to make. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: And I hadn't thought. I kept I always had it
Speaker 1: is I put it R and I've always had For
Speaker 1: some reason, I kept saying Brox. Yeah, it's box, just box,
Speaker 1: but not box because obviously if somebody was named Dave Box,
Speaker 1: he would have changed his name to cardboard. But I
Speaker 1: don't say there is that cannot definitely be a day box, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: So our Dave Dave Box was a thirty nine year
Speaker 1: old who worked as a pipe fitter. He was hired
Speaker 1: at the for anal feed plant in and he was
Speaker 1: considered to be a pretty solid employee and a regular fellow.
Speaker 1: Dave had been married, he had three kids. He had
Speaker 1: gotten unfortunately divorced several years prior to the time that
Speaker 1: he quote unquo it went away. And some people, of course,
Speaker 1: believe he died on the job. In fact, a lot
Speaker 1: of pretty much everybody does that he died there at
Speaker 1: but some very important people do not. So yeah, apparently, yeah,
Speaker 1: And of course there's a certain conspiracy theories. Should I
Speaker 1: talk about that? Why wouldn't you say that? For the theories. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll say that then. Okay, like we haven't been doing
Speaker 1: this for years, I know. Al right, Okay, we'll hold up.
Speaker 1: But can you talk more about the feed production. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're for an all feed production center. As the name applies,
Speaker 1: it produced feed for large animals like cattle and pigs,
Speaker 1: except in this case the cattle and pigs were actually
Speaker 1: nuclear reactors, and so the name was actually technically true
Speaker 1: but a little bit deceptive. Well, it was because they
Speaker 1: were feeding the materials into the reactors. I believe that's
Speaker 1: why they called it. The name had feed in it, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: But it was in an agricultural area and uh, and
Speaker 1: so a lot of people I've assumed, and it was
Speaker 1: actually built and owned by the government, the US government,
Speaker 1: and but they just didn't bother to tell people that
Speaker 1: actually it was it was shaping uranium into like you know,
Speaker 1: like uranium rods for reactors and that kind of Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was three or four specific lugs and stuff like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: slugs was the one I couldn't think of. Yeah, all
Speaker 1: these things that they're using to actually fuel the reactors.
Speaker 1: So they were it was technically feed, it was feed
Speaker 1: for something something. Yeah, nuclear reactors to right. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think the truth finally started to come out in three
Speaker 1: when the locals finally found out that this innocent looking
Speaker 1: plant was actually producing uranium, which is of course perfectly
Speaker 1: innocent to get me wrong. Well, hold on, Joe, though,
Speaker 1: so they everybody knew that they were producing uranium. The
Speaker 1: idea was that they were doing it for reactors for energy.
Speaker 1: What the big secret was is that they were also
Speaker 1: making weapons grade nuclear material, which you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure that they were doing that. I think that they
Speaker 1: took special orders. I think it's okay. So there were six, seven,
Speaker 1: eight nine. I think there were technically twelve plants, so
Speaker 1: they only named one through nine is plants, but there
Speaker 1: was at least two of them that were doing custom
Speaker 1: work in terms of shaping and all of that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And what I understood that it might actually
Speaker 1: be some of those actually those custom shops or custom
Speaker 1: buildings that we're doing some of the shaping for the
Speaker 1: weapons material. Possible, it might be true. I had thought
Speaker 1: that they were just taking basically high grade uranium, shaping
Speaker 1: into rods to to put into reactors so the reactors
Speaker 1: could convert it to weapons grade fuel. But maybe they
Speaker 1: were doing all those things. I don't know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it sounds like that was a big complex and
Speaker 1: they were doing all sorts of interesting very hidden, yeah,
Speaker 1: Indestine stuff, clandestine a little bit obviously. The employees were
Speaker 1: expected to not talk a lot about what they did.
Speaker 1: But the plant was there since nine I at least
Speaker 1: was construction began at fifty one. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: think it started operating in fifty three, operated until nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty nine. It's gone suspiciously convenience, so I know for that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, I know. But they have taken away and
Speaker 1: made it a wildlife reserve or something and there's like
Speaker 1: animals or birds or something, or a super fun site
Speaker 1: or yeah, well it was a super fun site. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But where it's where they raise all of our yeah,
Speaker 1: all of our all of our three eyed gazelles, and
Speaker 1: are thinking from the Simpsons is probably from there? Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably it's nearly. It's called named after the tiny town
Speaker 1: of Fernal, which I can't really seem to find on
Speaker 1: the Google aerials, but that's about fifteen miles northwest of Cincinnati, Ohio.
Speaker 1: The Nasty Uh. It was also known to the locals
Speaker 1: as NLO. It stands for National Lead of Ohio, which
Speaker 1: ran the plant for the owners, and of course, as
Speaker 1: I said, the US government, so it was they sort
Speaker 1: of ran it on the day to day basis, but
Speaker 1: still the government made the ultimate decisions as to what
Speaker 1: happened at the plants. There's owners and then there's the
Speaker 1: contractor who runs a pretty pretty standards especially for the
Speaker 1: US government. Yeah, and so the plant was under control
Speaker 1: of the Atomic Energy Commission until nineteen seventy nine when
Speaker 1: the Department of Energy took it over. There were some
Speaker 1: environmental and safety issues with it, and those had actually
Speaker 1: been ongoing for a long time. I mean since like
Speaker 1: the fifties, National LED was reporting problems to the a
Speaker 1: C about you know, Atomic Energy Commission. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know, dust like they had these weird bad
Speaker 1: cloth dust filters because there was a lot of uranium
Speaker 1: dust from processing allergy r and so that that would
Speaker 1: get filtrated and deposited these bags kind of like vacuum
Speaker 1: cleaner bags almost, and well those things had a tendency
Speaker 1: to break and spewed dust everywhere, and things like this.
Speaker 1: There are all kinds of issues like this that were
Speaker 1: ongoing uh, you know what, can I can I take
Speaker 1: us a side for a second. I was thinking about
Speaker 1: this today and if you Devin, you may not remember this,
Speaker 1: but kind of in the seventies and the eighties, there
Speaker 1: was this this mode of well, this is the way
Speaker 1: it is, and we'll just do this stuff and it's okay.
Speaker 1: You know, technology isn't really advancing because by and large
Speaker 1: the general public didn't see technology making huge leaps and
Speaker 1: bounds like we do today. Could you imagine what the
Speaker 1: world would be like if we had all got stuck
Speaker 1: in say nine two, and for some reason our technology
Speaker 1: just didn't advance. What a freaking mess things would be
Speaker 1: in terms of all of the stuff that, oh it's okay,
Speaker 1: you can pour it into the river, you can bury
Speaker 1: it into the ground, that doesn't matter. Yeah, well we
Speaker 1: weren't quite there, and by by two we were cleaning
Speaker 1: things up actually well but not everywhere. But my point
Speaker 1: is like, what would have been if we had just
Speaker 1: stopped doing and just kept on status quo. But from
Speaker 1: the nineties it sounds like something to write to the
Speaker 1: Star Trek people about, Yeah, have him do an episode
Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, I think they might have plant of
Speaker 1: the triples. Yeah, Captain's lacks started eight in nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 1: Oh but enough about those environmental issues which they had,
Speaker 1: but there we'll talk a little bit more about that
Speaker 1: in a little while. Um, but they did have those,
Speaker 1: but we don't know whether or not they had much
Speaker 1: to do with Dave Box or not. That really wasn't
Speaker 1: his job. He wasn't, like I said, a pipe fitter,
Speaker 1: and his job was to like, you know, inspect and
Speaker 1: repair various equipment, equipment pipes whatever, like the pipes that
Speaker 1: were feeding the vacuum tubes. Yeah, he's part of the
Speaker 1: maintenance crew. He worked the midnight shift. He was the
Speaker 1: swing yard midnight to like seven am or something. So
Speaker 1: his job was straight up maintenance. Pretty much. The plant
Speaker 1: was shut down and he and his crew would go
Speaker 1: out and just maintain things. Dave was last seen at
Speaker 1: their Fronald plant about five am on the morning of
Speaker 1: June nine. He was pronounced legally dead about two years later. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so let's start in the night of Dave's disappearance. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had carpooled to work with a guy named Harry Easterling,
Speaker 1: which usually carpooled with her. Yeah. Yeah, he's a regular guy.
Speaker 1: And and actually Harry, if you want to see what
Speaker 1: Harry looked like, he has has a beard, genial looking fellow.
Speaker 1: He was. He appeared on Unsolved Mysteries on an episode
Speaker 1: about this. Yeah, and uh, he and Harry usually met
Speaker 1: at this restaurant parking lot and one of them would
Speaker 1: leave their car and they go in one car. On
Speaker 1: that night, Harry picked up Dave about eleven pm. Harry
Speaker 1: reported no unusual behavior from Dave that night, except that
Speaker 1: he had bought to do lunchbox. So, yeah, that's suspicious,
Speaker 1: it's exciting. Yeah, and that's about He said something about
Speaker 1: maybe he was talking about maybe taking his kids on
Speaker 1: vacation the next summer or something or later in the summer.
Speaker 1: Harry Stilling said that he and Dave always began they
Speaker 1: worked in the maintenance room, which apparently was in this
Speaker 1: thing they called the maintenance bill. Uh. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a special maintenance building. He said that Dave, as usual
Speaker 1: that day, unlocked his toolbox and left the lock with
Speaker 1: the keys in it on top of the box. Dave's
Speaker 1: assignment that day was to go repair some equipment and
Speaker 1: plan eight in what was called the Whistleblower meat hooks
Speaker 1: or Yeah, I don't think it. I don't think so
Speaker 1: that he wasn't signed a plan eight. I'm not sure exactly.
Speaker 1: I'd heard, not specifically what he was supposed to do
Speaker 1: over there, but he was supposed to go do something. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I, by the way, I tried to find a
Speaker 1: map of this whole complex because it's a huge place,
Speaker 1: and I I guess the government didn't publish maps of it,
Speaker 1: surprisingly enough, I know I was not able to find
Speaker 1: one on the website the government facility. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: like you probably can't find maps of like Vonneville Dam,
Speaker 1: for instance, can you probably not? I mean you wouldn't.
Speaker 1: That's not the sort of thing you would want the
Speaker 1: general public to be able to snag just in case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: attention terrorists, pressure point right there, This is where you
Speaker 1: put the bomb. Yeah, so no map, So I where
Speaker 1: all these buildings are in relation to one another? I
Speaker 1: don't know. And of course the place is torn down.
Speaker 1: You can't even look at it and look at it
Speaker 1: on Google. It's gone. So we're just gonna have to
Speaker 1: wing it on that one. But Dave left his toolbox
Speaker 1: innimatenance room instead of taking it with him I'm not
Speaker 1: sure why he did that, but apparently get that on
Speaker 1: a regular basis. Apparently. Yeah, so he must have just
Speaker 1: decided what tools he was gonna need and taken them
Speaker 1: and seems like, I mean he'd worked there for a while.
Speaker 1: Had he'd worked there for about three years, you probably
Speaker 1: go to that point. No, you know, if somebody says, okay,
Speaker 1: you gotta go fix this certain type of pipe, he says,
Speaker 1: all right, I need these five different tools, and you know,
Speaker 1: probably hourly, so like, oh no, if he has to
Speaker 1: walk back first, if you've ever, I mean, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a government job, so who cares if you have to
Speaker 1: walk back and forth five times? You're still getting paid
Speaker 1: the same rather than logging that heavy box. But Joe,
Speaker 1: I thought he had worked there longer than I thought
Speaker 1: he had started there, like more than a decade prior
Speaker 1: to his disappearance. I don't not could be wrong. I
Speaker 1: heard that he started one but okay, I really I
Speaker 1: thought that he had been working there since the early
Speaker 1: to mid seventies. Maybe he started his position as a
Speaker 1: pipe fitter in eighty one, but he was doing something else.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's it. He started out like as a typist
Speaker 1: or something like that, well, you know, like a general
Speaker 1: maintenance handyman or something. Yeah, it's okay. I just swore
Speaker 1: he'd been there for much longer, Like I felt like
Speaker 1: he had had a lot of career time there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know what does What does matter is that
Speaker 1: this particular night was the last night of his career there.
Speaker 1: Uh and then okay, what was I Oh? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was talking about his toolbox. Uh, it was the toolbox
Speaker 1: was there. A few days later after they disappeared, he
Speaker 1: left his toolbox, went off to Plan eight to fix
Speaker 1: the radioactive snitch rectifier which was reportedly making an odd sound?
Speaker 1: Did it? And his his toolbox was missing some tools
Speaker 1: though right, nobody has said that I can find whether
Speaker 1: what tools were gone, what tools were not gone, But
Speaker 1: the toolbox was there and with a lock on top
Speaker 1: of it. Apparently Dave trusted his coworkers. Yeah. I guess
Speaker 1: they must have all had a good relationship or it
Speaker 1: was company tools. Yeah, and maybe he didn't care a
Speaker 1: good point, which is the weird. That is weird though,
Speaker 1: Why would you leave your keys instead of carrying him around? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the thing is, you know, he gets he gets
Speaker 1: the toolbox out and it's got a padlock on it,
Speaker 1: so obviously he doesn't trust people to not steal from it.
Speaker 1: Then he opens he doesn't trust the day people. I
Speaker 1: had thought he trust the maintenance people, nobody else. That
Speaker 1: must be what it is. Yeah, but so they're probably
Speaker 1: throwing his tools in the in the the oil vats
Speaker 1: or the acid vats or something. I think it was funny. Yeah,
Speaker 1: look at this. Yeah, people are like planting drugs in
Speaker 1: the air, planting crack. So that night, according to Unsolved
Speaker 1: Mysteries and Unnamed coworker days so and we never do
Speaker 1: get a chance to find out who this person was.
Speaker 1: He was unnamed. He said that he saw David a
Speaker 1: pickup truck with this supervisor having a heated discussion about something,
Speaker 1: but the windows of the truck were rolled up, so
Speaker 1: the coworker could not hear what was being discussed. By
Speaker 1: the way, this struct the coworker as odd the windows
Speaker 1: being up because it was a warm night. So I
Speaker 1: I have a one. I'm always disturbed when we have
Speaker 1: a single source for something like that, especially when it
Speaker 1: comes from unsolved mysteries. But I had heard it as
Speaker 1: not a heated but a serious conversation. But I've heard
Speaker 1: it actually characterized as an argument. Well, I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: there's there's a couple of different Well what if you
Speaker 1: look at it. I was thinking about it. It's a
Speaker 1: serious conversation. It could be a very serious quiet tone,
Speaker 1: or it could be serious as in one person like trying.
Speaker 1: It's serious. They're not trying not to cry or something.
Speaker 1: But the whole, the whole. The windows were up. What
Speaker 1: I want to know was the vehicle turned on because
Speaker 1: it might have had the Well that's what I was
Speaker 1: wondering too, So the windows being rolled up might have
Speaker 1: been totally normal. Again, it's a government vehicle, so it
Speaker 1: probably didn't have a C because they always thought the
Speaker 1: cheapest possible. Yeah, actually it was eighty four. I bet
Speaker 1: government vehicles I'll have a C now standard, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: maybe not back in those days. Now, I remember my
Speaker 1: dad being in government vehicles, you know, regular civilian cars
Speaker 1: and trucks, and they were always the lowest model. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like you've been in a forced service truck before,
Speaker 1: how don't you, Joe? I think? So they have nothing
Speaker 1: in them. Whatever comes, bare bones standard is what they get.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but then it gets a supervisor vehicle, so
Speaker 1: maybe he maybe yeah, yeah, but anyway, again, this is
Speaker 1: coming to us courtesy of some unnamed audonymous person too,
Speaker 1: so who the hell knows, And apparently the same person
Speaker 1: around five am spotted David again and Dave was headed
Speaker 1: towards Plant four, which also struck this coworkers odd since
Speaker 1: Dave's job assignment, of course, was in plant eight and
Speaker 1: we don't we we don't have any records that say
Speaker 1: that he finished the job in plant eight and may
Speaker 1: have been sent to four to deal with something else. Well,
Speaker 1: that's entirely possible. Also, plant four there was supposed to
Speaker 1: be a like a safety meeting around seven am, so
Speaker 1: I was thinking maybe he was headed there early to
Speaker 1: get a good seat or to take an out. It
Speaker 1: could have been taken an app or screw at lunch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who knows. And I don't know what's in the direction
Speaker 1: of plant for maybe plant three, Plant five, something else
Speaker 1: Plant eight. Maybe you know they're parallels, so it's one, two, three, four,
Speaker 1: seven eight, and then they're just right next to each other.
Speaker 1: I am not knowing, it doesn't matter, but yeah, so anyway,
Speaker 1: that was that was he was. This was the last
Speaker 1: person who saw Dave alive allegedly, Yeah, allegedly, at least
Speaker 1: the last person has come forward. Yeah, it was admitted
Speaker 1: seeing alive. Dave did not make it to the safety meeting.
Speaker 1: Of course, maybe that's not why he was headed towards
Speaker 1: plant form. Maybe, like we said, maybe he was head
Speaker 1: towards Plant five, Plant three and a half. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Harry Easterly said that at the end of the shift
Speaker 1: he noticed that Dave's toolbox was still sitting there with
Speaker 1: the keys on it, but no Dave. Harry looked for
Speaker 1: Dave for a little bit, eventually left a message with
Speaker 1: the security guard to give to day of saying that
Speaker 1: he was going home, saying that he would meet again
Speaker 1: the usual spot tomorrow. Harry thought, Um, he was just
Speaker 1: figured he'd pick up more work for them, doing some
Speaker 1: overtime or something like that. Although, God, it seems like,
Speaker 1: how do you either of you remember what he said?
Speaker 1: Their commute time was from the restaurant to the plant.
Speaker 1: I don't know. That's a good I'm assuming it was
Speaker 1: somewhat substantial. I mean, otherwise that why bother carpool Well,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly my thing. Like it also couldn't have
Speaker 1: been more than an hour, because if they started at
Speaker 1: midnight and Matt at eleven, but a thirty minute drive
Speaker 1: is a long way to have to hoof it on
Speaker 1: foot if he decides to work a couple of hours,
Speaker 1: like you would think that I understand why Harry called
Speaker 1: and said, hey, tell him I left, so he could
Speaker 1: you controle somebody into giving him a ride to his
Speaker 1: vis Assume that's what happened, that somebody gave him would
Speaker 1: have given him a ride, so he didn't give him.
Speaker 1: And this is in the days, of course, before we
Speaker 1: had text messaging, although inter company phones are a thing,
Speaker 1: and so you would imagine that he would have called
Speaker 1: the switchboard and figured out where the hell he was
Speaker 1: so he could try Dave. That is, if Dave was
Speaker 1: working over time, could have figured out where Harry was
Speaker 1: and called Harry and told him. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: Reportedly Dave had a walkie talkie on him there, so
Speaker 1: I would assume they all have talkies and that's the
Speaker 1: equivalent of inner office phones. Yeah, so I don't know
Speaker 1: if Harry tried to raise him in milwaukie talkie. I
Speaker 1: assume he would have, but I got no reply back
Speaker 1: because well, I don't know something happened to Dave, so
Speaker 1: Dave doesn't go home with Harry. He does not, but
Speaker 1: Harry the next night goes to meet Dave in the
Speaker 1: usual place in the restaurant parking lot. Sees Dave's car
Speaker 1: park there and assumed that Dave was not in the car,
Speaker 1: seon that he might be in the restaurant getting some
Speaker 1: food or something. But they did that, yeah, occasionally. But Davids,
Speaker 1: it turns out, was not in the restaurant either. So
Speaker 1: Harry goes to work, looks for Dave. Dave's not there,
Speaker 1: and so he reported him missing, and they began to
Speaker 1: search of the premises, which, as you can imagine, would
Speaker 1: have taken a while because it's a big, big place,
Speaker 1: and isn't this where Harry said he got to the
Speaker 1: got to the maintenance building and saw Dave's lock and
Speaker 1: and everything sitting there were still wide open from the
Speaker 1: night before or presumably from the night before. Yeah, Dulux
Speaker 1: still sitting there with keys on it or in it.
Speaker 1: So they started the search, and sometime in the morning
Speaker 1: of the twentieth, that's June twenty, somebody and Plant six
Speaker 1: noticed that one of the furnaces in the building there.
Speaker 1: There were several different types, but one of them had
Speaker 1: suddenly dropped twenty eight degrees in temperature at five fifteen
Speaker 1: a m on June nine, Plant six. In Plant six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so in Plant six, there were three types of furnaces
Speaker 1: that I've been able to find out about, and they
Speaker 1: operated the temperatures between about eleven fifty degrees fahrenheit and
Speaker 1: about thirteen hundred sixty five degrees fahrenheit. That is celsius hot.
Speaker 1: It's hot. Yeah, it's really smoking hot. It's like ninety
Speaker 1: nine degrees celsius. I don't know, but it's super hot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's hot enough to I think make you uncomfortable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: at least briefly until you died. Yeah. The furnace in question,
Speaker 1: at least as far as I can tell, what's called
Speaker 1: the automated ingot preheat furnace, which contained a bath of
Speaker 1: molten salt which has kept in a temperature of around
Speaker 1: twelve hundredgrees fahrenheit. Uh. And this was used for heating
Speaker 1: and softening and radium ingots which were then squished into
Speaker 1: around around her more rod shaped form and something called
Speaker 1: a blooming press blooming machine. Wait, I okay, now is it.
Speaker 1: Actually I saw this in your stuff before, and I
Speaker 1: was confused a little bit here, Joe, because it's not
Speaker 1: actually salt. They called it green salt, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: actually salt table salt. But it's it's it's some sorts,
Speaker 1: but I mean it's metal is and um, okay, there
Speaker 1: is some salt in it, but it's I guess that's
Speaker 1: what I want to make sure people don't think that
Speaker 1: it's the white stuff that you pour on quite the
Speaker 1: same now. And by the way, sodium is metal. Have
Speaker 1: you ever seen pure sodium. It's been a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's metal. I mean, yeah, so that's salty.
Speaker 1: You're eating this metal, man, that's okay that you need that.
Speaker 1: Your body needs minerals, so it's not a problem, just
Speaker 1: not the heavy kind. Yeah. No, These furnaces took days
Speaker 1: to heat up and cool down, so they were left
Speaker 1: on all the time, even of course overnight when the
Speaker 1: production minds were all shut down and all the rightness
Speaker 1: workers are out. It's not uncommon in production facilities. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, and so in the morning is one of
Speaker 1: the operators of the furnace noticed a sticky residue on
Speaker 1: it again. Again this is somewhat apocryphal. I'm not totally sure.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, if it is a skin on
Speaker 1: the top of this liquid hot molten liquid material, I
Speaker 1: think the term sticky is inappropriately applied because everything is
Speaker 1: gooey hot. Yeah, are you gonna be sticking your finger
Speaker 1: down there to like figure? But I think he was
Speaker 1: noticing he was on the casing of it, like on
Speaker 1: the outside and on the inside. And so I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure where this one comes from because I besides reading,
Speaker 1: I read some newspaper accounts, and also there was a
Speaker 1: court case were involving this stuff, and I didn't see
Speaker 1: anything about a sticky substance or anything like that. But
Speaker 1: again this is this is again from Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so again I questioned where that's real or not. Yeah. Again,
Speaker 1: this is not one of those persons too who was unnamed.
Speaker 1: You know, they don't they only they only have actually
Speaker 1: two people there who actually are named David, Dave's daughter
Speaker 1: and Harry, the only ones who actually go on camera
Speaker 1: and are named. Well, Dave doesn't go on camera, yeah Davis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, there was a Dave in there. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the real point. Yeah, different guy. But one thing we
Speaker 1: do know about unsolved mysteries or not, is they did
Speaker 1: indeed shut that furnace off so they can look inside
Speaker 1: and see if there are any clues in there about
Speaker 1: the missing Dave, because they hadn't found him anywhere else.
Speaker 1: But it took three days, of course for the furnace
Speaker 1: to cool down enough to where they could stick their
Speaker 1: hands in there and feel around. I'm pretty sure they
Speaker 1: still didn't do that, but maybe when they finally got
Speaker 1: around to poking around in the furnace, they did find
Speaker 1: stuff that shouldn't have been there. There was a set
Speaker 1: of keys, a steel toe from a work boot, part
Speaker 1: of an eyeglass frame, and Dave of course did wear glasses,
Speaker 1: pieces of milwakie talking and a piece of stainless steel
Speaker 1: wire that had been looped together in three circles. You
Speaker 1: know the size of that. No, am I the only
Speaker 1: one that's amazed that they find these things in a
Speaker 1: molten furnace that was operating for at least a day.
Speaker 1: I thought it was suspicious that they found that ring
Speaker 1: under Clarence Roberts and that was just a fire and
Speaker 1: some gold. This is incredible to me. Well, actually I
Speaker 1: checked out because I was thinking to like, they found
Speaker 1: the keys, for example, and the keys were not totally undamaged,
Speaker 1: but I would have expected them to just be a
Speaker 1: little Well, it turns out like the melting point of brass,
Speaker 1: which is what most keys are made of, is actually
Speaker 1: well above twelve degrees oh yeah, fahrenheit. So this is
Speaker 1: like that Breaking Bad when he's like, oh, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna stick all of this certain kind of thing in
Speaker 1: the tub because that's going to be stronger than the
Speaker 1: plastic that Mr White told you? Did you not see?
Speaker 1: I saw Breaking Bad. I don't remember that particular one
Speaker 1: when he's trying to decompose the bodies and he has
Speaker 1: the acid and he's like, I'm going to stick it
Speaker 1: in the tub. Yeah, it's like that, right. You just
Speaker 1: logically in your brain you're like, well, yeah, it's hot,
Speaker 1: so it melts metal. That's cool. But apparently not it does.
Speaker 1: It's just not well, yeah, it's just not quite hot
Speaker 1: enough to do that. So well that actually also the
Speaker 1: human bone does not disintegrate either. It's it's like it's
Speaker 1: it would be cooked enough to where it extremely brittle
Speaker 1: and where it would it would break up in a
Speaker 1: in a you know, fragment very easily, but it doesn't. Actually,
Speaker 1: if you were to like heat a human skeleton of
Speaker 1: that temperature, it would stay intact. I mean you could
Speaker 1: crush it very very easily, but it would stay intact.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, you're right. That's why crematoriums pulverized bones
Speaker 1: once they come out of the fire. Everyone welcome, everyone
Speaker 1: totally totally just forgot about that. Yeah, And we don't
Speaker 1: know anything about the steel wire No, no, no, not that.
Speaker 1: And it was d of the size of loops where
Speaker 1: I think about three or four inches across, and there
Speaker 1: were it was like one piece of wire but looped
Speaker 1: in the three loops. Mysterious kind of like clover leaf shape,
Speaker 1: kind of like that, kind of like a three leaf clover. Uh.
Speaker 1: I mentioned there were fragments of human bones found in
Speaker 1: there too. Yeah, that's why we were talking about the
Speaker 1: human bone. Yeah, crematory pulverizing your bones. Yeah, some guy
Speaker 1: with a ball peen hammer. Yeah. I don't know how
Speaker 1: they do that. If they just have they just take
Speaker 1: it up to the parking lot. No, no, they actually
Speaker 1: it's kind of messy. No, they have something equivalent to
Speaker 1: the the ninja bullet juicer that you have in your
Speaker 1: home on a much bigger scale that they shoved those
Speaker 1: big chunks into to break them up. You would think
Speaker 1: they would just do two big plates that would work.
Speaker 1: So okay, sorry, so yeah, take yeah, we are totally off.
Speaker 1: Did the cops get called at this point? Of course
Speaker 1: the other police were called. The police weren't called before
Speaker 1: they cooled it down, though. I think they were called
Speaker 1: actually right away, but of course there wasn't There wasn't
Speaker 1: much they could do. But Harry got to work the
Speaker 1: next day, didn't. Yeah, I don't know if they called
Speaker 1: him right away. They might have actually just had a
Speaker 1: company only searched around that around, and then eventually when
Speaker 1: they couldn't find him and they discovered there was a
Speaker 1: possibility that somebody had died into mishap, then they called
Speaker 1: the police. Smart yeah, and a local depe sheriff it
Speaker 1: was Victor CORRELLI said that the keys that were found,
Speaker 1: one of them was to Dave's car. Another one they
Speaker 1: believe was to his house, but they couldn't tell for
Speaker 1: shirt because it was bad and damaged and so they
Speaker 1: couldn't really confirm that. Uh. And then apparently three other
Speaker 1: ones went to padlocks, and that's about all they know
Speaker 1: about the keys. And the keys cost a little bit
Speaker 1: of consternation for Harry Easterling because he's seen his keys. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a little odd and I think because we just heard
Speaker 1: that he saw the padlock unlocked on top of yeah,
Speaker 1: with the keys in it. Yeah, and so and so
Speaker 1: that he had seen them on the morning of the nineteen,
Speaker 1: two hours after five fifteen, when the temperature dropped in
Speaker 1: the furnace, Harry had seen them on the toolbox and
Speaker 1: then like when Yeah, and then the next day when
Speaker 1: he comes back to work, they're still they're sitting on
Speaker 1: the toolbox. And yet three days later they found in
Speaker 1: the furnace. Yeah, which is a little strange. That is
Speaker 1: a little strange, Yeah, I think so. Yeah. At this point,
Speaker 1: so what the authorities knew that was that Dave box
Speaker 1: was missing. They also knew there was evidence that somebody
Speaker 1: had wound up in a furnace and plant six something
Speaker 1: had ended up. They didn't know at that point. It's
Speaker 1: just the initial or after they had cooled the thing off.
Speaker 1: This is like after they cooled it all, after they
Speaker 1: cooled it off and pulled stuff out of it, I
Speaker 1: thought you were saying when they initially showed up, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there was evidence that there was somebody in that furnace.
Speaker 1: Beyond that, they really didn't know much. Said the local
Speaker 1: corner's office wouldn't sign a death certificate because there was
Speaker 1: a lack of evidence that David died. The sheriff's department
Speaker 1: was treating essentially as a missing person case, and they
Speaker 1: kept the file open. But everybody kind of believed that
Speaker 1: Dave had died in the furnace and plants six. The
Speaker 1: question was, well, how and why was it an accident?
Speaker 1: Did Dave commit suicide or was he perhaps murdered? Yeah,
Speaker 1: members of the Day's family had said they're sure it
Speaker 1: was not suicide. Of course they often do um. But
Speaker 1: his daughter said that David bought groceries for the week,
Speaker 1: he paid all his bills, planning a vacation with his kids. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, Dave apparently there did have some issues.
Speaker 1: Apparently around the time of his divorce, he did attempt suicide.
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not sure how serious an attempt
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, but apparently I was gonna ask
Speaker 1: that if there's any record of, you know, did he
Speaker 1: shoot a gun and barely miss himself or did he
Speaker 1: do the cry for attention, Yeah, take some pills badly
Speaker 1: scratch himself with with a safety razor on the risk
Speaker 1: kind of You know, there's there's a whole there's a
Speaker 1: full spectrum. President, not that I'm belittling the act of
Speaker 1: trying to take your life, but there is a spectrum,
Speaker 1: and we don't know where he falls in that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some people are a little more hardcore about it, a
Speaker 1: little more de tremory to get the job done. Um,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. Uh. And but that's for the
Speaker 1: murders there. And the family does think that it was
Speaker 1: probably murder. There's no one really with any motive. Dave
Speaker 1: was a nice guy, apparently had no enemies except, of course,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned previously, the Fornald plant did estimations with
Speaker 1: environmental quality, and so Dave's family has suggested that perhaps
Speaker 1: he was going to talk to somebody and perhaps suppressed
Speaker 1: about the situation and maybe be a whistleblower. And so
Speaker 1: they're thinking Dave was murdered to shut him up. And
Speaker 1: so so we have essentially three theories. I'm gonna throw
Speaker 1: a fourth one in there too later on. But some
Speaker 1: fun ones will not really fun. But you know that's
Speaker 1: a because we do it all the time, all right,
Speaker 1: it's more of it. But now, uh yeah, okay, what
Speaker 1: our first theory is it was an accident. Dave fell
Speaker 1: into that furnace. I think personally this is kind of unlikely,
Speaker 1: but you know, it is considered to be a possibility.
Speaker 1: Can I can I ask a question before we get
Speaker 1: too far into the theories. Yeah, okay, I'll pull my
Speaker 1: hand down. Um, all of our theories are saying that
Speaker 1: it's Dave's remains or whatever was pulls out of that
Speaker 1: furnace was day. Most of our theories are saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so what we're talking about until you
Speaker 1: say otherwise, is the remains or the things that were
Speaker 1: pulled out of the furnst were Dave. Ye, it wasna yeah,
Speaker 1: And so the keys were, theres were there, and part
Speaker 1: of the remains of his work boots were apparently there,
Speaker 1: and his glasses or somebody's. So as far as the
Speaker 1: accident one goes, Nobody, as far as I know, had
Speaker 1: actually fallen into one of these furnaces before. And I
Speaker 1: tried to find on the web exactly what the make
Speaker 1: and model of the furnace was, and so I could
Speaker 1: see a picture of it or at least a drawing
Speaker 1: diagram something had no luck. The most specific information I
Speaker 1: could find was in the court document that referred to
Speaker 1: it as a quote new sol vat that's n U
Speaker 1: s a l V unquote. And I looked for I
Speaker 1: searched on the web for that when got zip. So
Speaker 1: that's about it. Have you ever looked at the imagery
Speaker 1: from UH steel refineries. Yeah, so they tend to either
Speaker 1: be a long hot trough or they're more of drum
Speaker 1: is not the word, but it's a giant bucket of
Speaker 1: hot liquid so that it can then be moved and
Speaker 1: poured into a form. Those are the only two shapes
Speaker 1: that I've ever seen, I mean, and then again, I'm
Speaker 1: ignoring whatever was on Unsolved Mysteries because it really looked
Speaker 1: like what they had was made out of storage containers.
Speaker 1: Whatever they had in that in that video sure looked
Speaker 1: nothing like Yeah, but I did find a picture of
Speaker 1: a top loading similar kind of furnace on the web,
Speaker 1: an old picture and an old manual. It looked nothing
Speaker 1: like what they had on their right. But was it
Speaker 1: like a big square hot pit of turn sometimes, but
Speaker 1: it had it had like a bunch of apparatus around
Speaker 1: the top because a lot of these were top loading
Speaker 1: furnaces and for the unheeded material into the opening at
Speaker 1: the top. Yeah, but in this case they would put
Speaker 1: they would put ingots in there, and they would pull
Speaker 1: ingots out. Nothing got poured really because they would pull
Speaker 1: them out and they hadn't melted, and they would they
Speaker 1: could just shape them. I think they stopped them enough
Speaker 1: that they were easier to shape. It would be more
Speaker 1: like the kind of ovens they used for like glass
Speaker 1: blowing or stuff something like that. Maybe. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: as far as I know, they were top loading, but
Speaker 1: I don't know how to percent for sure they could
Speaker 1: have been. They could have been frontly. But one would
Speaker 1: presume that there was some sort of guardrailer really to
Speaker 1: keep at least the people who are putting those things in. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was thinking maybe a velvet rope. I think a
Speaker 1: velvet rope. You have had a velvet rope around it
Speaker 1: with a little sign that's safe. Yeah, it keeps to
Speaker 1: be safe at the movie theater. It keeps the tourists
Speaker 1: out right. Yeah, yeah, wait, what are what are the
Speaker 1: little zippy ones they use at the airportnes because nobody
Speaker 1: gets through those which all those stanchions. Stanchions that works, yeah, Dave,
Speaker 1: But I think it was a pretty safety arty guy though,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure they had something more serious than that
Speaker 1: to keep people from wandering. You were stumbling in, yeah,
Speaker 1: and let's face it, you know you don't need to
Speaker 1: have a lot of brains just to not be falling
Speaker 1: into a twelve green bolt and salt furnace. And you
Speaker 1: can tell you it's not like you could sort of
Speaker 1: accidentally back up and fall any of You gotta feel
Speaker 1: that heat, right, you're gonna be feeling it, And so
Speaker 1: I think even in Amiba would have been smart enough
Speaker 1: to not fall. So I grew up in an area
Speaker 1: in southern Oregon and there was I think it was
Speaker 1: I can't remember the name of the place, but they
Speaker 1: dealt with nickel, and so they were heating nickel and
Speaker 1: doing all of these things. And unless you were just
Speaker 1: in the general vicinity, you were okay. But when you
Speaker 1: had to be around any of the burners or the
Speaker 1: have the super hot like these kind of thousand plus
Speaker 1: degree areas, you were required to put on one of
Speaker 1: those nice fancy shiny metal reflective heats suits, I would
Speaker 1: think so. So I can't imagine that they would just
Speaker 1: let the maintenance guy just walk up and, you know,
Speaker 1: start messing around with something. You would have to be
Speaker 1: appropriately attired. But he also wasn't even supposed to be. No,
Speaker 1: he wasn't. Yeah, he was supposed to be in plant
Speaker 1: eight and then later on in plant four. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so what was either Maybe he was just wandering by
Speaker 1: saw Dora jar. I thought, huh, I'll go check and
Speaker 1: see what's going on there. Yeah, yeah, and anyone, and
Speaker 1: it seems wrong. I don't like this theory. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: find it kind of hard to believe that this was
Speaker 1: an accident. I really do, so I gotta get this
Speaker 1: one to fail. Agreed, You like that, Steve Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know. You know, people take ups and salt baths
Speaker 1: and they say it makes him feel better. He was like,
Speaker 1: it was a salt bath. I really think this is
Speaker 1: a terrible theory. And my feet feel crappy. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go sleep my feet in there. Well, okay, our next theory,
Speaker 1: well they called me stumpy. Yeah, so our next serious suicide.
Speaker 1: I almost said both side, but no suicide. Apparently, As
Speaker 1: I mentioned before, Dave had had some issues with the depression. Uh.
Speaker 1: And of course, as we said, he attempted suicide not
Speaker 1: just a few years previously, during this divorce, and so
Speaker 1: throwing yourself into a molten salt vat would definitely solve
Speaker 1: your problem if you wanted to kill yourself, I mean,
Speaker 1: be a pretty horrible way to go though. That would
Speaker 1: be pretty awful. I mean, we all saw a terminator.
Speaker 1: We saw how long it took Arnold. Yeah, but he
Speaker 1: was a terminator. I think a human being it would
Speaker 1: be like a little quicker, hopefully, but it was still
Speaker 1: not fun for the little bit of time that It's
Speaker 1: a good lord, I couldn't imagine, not that there's a
Speaker 1: way to kill yourself, but that is not a good
Speaker 1: way to kill yourself. Now, well, you never know. It
Speaker 1: might be super quick. It might be that your nervatings
Speaker 1: are shocked and they just stopped working, and that you're
Speaker 1: going to go into shock right away. Uh hope, if
Speaker 1: it were not, we could look a day's computer and
Speaker 1: see if he did web searches on topics like quote,
Speaker 1: how long did it takes to die? If you throw
Speaker 1: yourself That would definitely sound a question that would help
Speaker 1: a lot, but we can't do that. No web search
Speaker 1: is available, and I don't know there's no record that
Speaker 1: he asked anybody says if you fell into that, how
Speaker 1: long do you think it to take it to die?
Speaker 1: But I would think it would be able to really quickly.
Speaker 1: But I still would rather just shoot myself personally. I
Speaker 1: think a whole bunch of other ways about On the
Speaker 1: other hand, I've seen cases where people have picked even
Speaker 1: more hideous ways to kill themselves in this I mean,
Speaker 1: people like soaked themselves in gasoline and light themselves on fire.
Speaker 1: And here's that guy who you know has tied the
Speaker 1: rope around his neck and then accelerated the car that
Speaker 1: was the corpett definitely killed themselves that way, that will
Speaker 1: do it. But yeah that was Britain. Yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: there's there's worse ways, I guess, but it just it
Speaker 1: doesn't sound quite right to me. Uh. And on the
Speaker 1: other side of things, people have noticed that Dave had
Speaker 1: just bought a new lunch box, So I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna kill your stability, what isn't I know
Speaker 1: exactly you know, I mean obviously you know he was
Speaker 1: planning for the future if he bought a new lunch box, right,
Speaker 1: we didn't. We did actually get this feedback a little
Speaker 1: bit when we did the more Gate Tube crash though,
Speaker 1: because we talked about evidence of him having you know,
Speaker 1: cash for a new car in his pocket. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who kind of came
Speaker 1: out and said, you know, you know, in their understanding
Speaker 1: of people who commit suicide, oftentimes it's not like you
Speaker 1: wake up and say, yep, today's the day I'm going
Speaker 1: to kill myself. I mean, for you just are like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that here we go. Maybe he's sort of been toying
Speaker 1: with the idea for a while and it's one day
Speaker 1: for one reason or another, everything just kind of jelos,
Speaker 1: you say, okay, now is the time. Maybe yeah, maybe
Speaker 1: something bad had happened with his supervisor and he thought
Speaker 1: he was a us his job and thought ball just
Speaker 1: jump into that pool instead of it could be there
Speaker 1: were you know, just by providence of planning for the
Speaker 1: future doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't planning on committing suicide. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good, But I also agree I don't think that
Speaker 1: he did. But hey, yeah, well, I mean who knows. Uh, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there were some other stuff. His daughter, of course, said
Speaker 1: they were planning of vacations. At some point he paid
Speaker 1: all the bills and bottled the groceries and stuff, and
Speaker 1: uh yeah again he said, it doesn't really mean much.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you could look at somebody's buying groceries
Speaker 1: for the family and paying all the bills is sort
Speaker 1: of cleaning up all the bluesse ends. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: before he kills himself. Yeah, planning a vacation doesn't really
Speaker 1: mean much. I mean, it's that could. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that means serious planning or if you just sort
Speaker 1: of vaguely talking about going to Disneyland or something. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just we all talk about stuff like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: sometime in the future conversation how we've been planning on
Speaker 1: a European trip to solve mysteries in Europe for how long? Now?
Speaker 1: Four years? Yeah? Exactly? Yeah? Still yeah, no closer to
Speaker 1: actually no, not likely. It might happen. Who knows, because
Speaker 1: you're gonna try and kill me. So if somebody steps
Speaker 1: up and pace it, okay, pace for it. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: would be one reason to do it I can think of.
Speaker 1: You know, I would rather again go out in the
Speaker 1: woods with a shotgun and take care of business. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, there would be opportunities at the
Speaker 1: plant at fernald Uh, lots of opportunities. And plus, if
Speaker 1: David made it look like an accident, then he would
Speaker 1: leave his family a really nice opening for a lawsuit,
Speaker 1: so and and workers comp and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, Dave doesn't seem to have
Speaker 1: gone out of his way to make it look like
Speaker 1: an accident. You know why, I know we've said this.
Speaker 1: Why going to that furnace? That place was known to
Speaker 1: be full of very corrosive acids, to the point that
Speaker 1: they had a m what is I suddenly cannot think
Speaker 1: of the name of the guy who replaces souls on shoes,
Speaker 1: Thank you. They had somebody on site who fixed shoes
Speaker 1: for the employees because there was so much acid on
Speaker 1: the ground it ate through their work boots at an
Speaker 1: obscene rate. So they did this for people like Okay,
Speaker 1: why why did he do that versus going and finding
Speaker 1: one of the giant vats of acid jumping into that thing.
Speaker 1: In fairness, though, if you jumped into a vat of
Speaker 1: corrosive acid, it's unlikely that any part of you be found,
Speaker 1: right versus if he knew the science of this thing,
Speaker 1: although more of his bones should have been found if
Speaker 1: it was his entire skeleton. Well, here's the deal though,
Speaker 1: that I'm I'm assuming I'm going on a living here.
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact compound that they use as salt,
Speaker 1: but as we all know, salts at room temperature is solid,
Speaker 1: and it might well be by the time they cooled
Speaker 1: it down enough to where they could actually get into
Speaker 1: his search, it might have solidified. So maybe they had
Speaker 1: to sort of chip through everything and they without or
Speaker 1: didn't break things up enough to find the smaller fragments. Maybe, yeah,
Speaker 1: they might not have considered it worthwhile, I will say
Speaker 1: had some bones that that might have been enough. They
Speaker 1: didn't feel like they needed to like chip through the
Speaker 1: entire thing and try to extract every single bone, which
Speaker 1: by the way, they weren't going to do without breaking
Speaker 1: them all up anyway, because by the time they've been
Speaker 1: heated that much, they're gonta be pretty fragile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so,
Speaker 1: I but I guess to your point of, you know,
Speaker 1: finding the super corrosive acid, like if you want it
Speaker 1: to look like an accident, you still have to leave
Speaker 1: some evident the accident. Yeah, but you still think he
Speaker 1: would have, like, you know, put like a say, a
Speaker 1: banana appeal on the top of the thing or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: something to make it look But in in looking forward
Speaker 1: at the next theory, if what we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about after we finished this up was what happened, then
Speaker 1: why did they throw him in something that would leave
Speaker 1: materials rather than throwing him in something that would completely destroying.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that theory, but I just want to
Speaker 1: bring that up now so that we don't forget to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But back to the suicide thing. If it was gonna
Speaker 1: make it look like suicide versus an accident, well you
Speaker 1: think he would have taken off his hard hat and
Speaker 1: his glasses at least what Yeah, or maybe not. But
Speaker 1: you know, if you're going to commit suicide, you don't
Speaker 1: give a rip. I don't care that I'm wearing all
Speaker 1: my work gear. I'm just gonna take and if it's
Speaker 1: going to be an accident, if you're gonna stage an accident,
Speaker 1: no investigator says, oh weird, he took off his gloves
Speaker 1: and his hat and his glasses and then stumbled in
Speaker 1: like that. That that series of events wouldn't make sense
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it would make more sense that he
Speaker 1: had an accident and fell in with all of his gears.
Speaker 1: But he should have done something. He should have left
Speaker 1: like a rope or a piece of cable right there
Speaker 1: for him to trip over something or that that that
Speaker 1: this cardboards, the sign you see swinging on the end
Speaker 1: of the rope, and the looning tunes, the cartoons, you
Speaker 1: should have just done pitched the velvet rope so it
Speaker 1: looked like, you know, for a little bit, so it
Speaker 1: looks like somebody had stumbled over it. Yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: I don't know about this one. About yeah, this wide
Speaker 1: it's more plausible than an accident, but less plausible than
Speaker 1: some others to me. Yeah it is, uh yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's it just seems like it's entirely I mean,
Speaker 1: it's entirely plausible to me. But again, there's not really
Speaker 1: any evidence for it. But then again, okay, let's look
Speaker 1: at get that one and maybe move onto our next theory,
Speaker 1: which of course is murder. Dut murder, everybody's favorite. So again,
Speaker 1: assuming that that was Dave's remains that were found in there,
Speaker 1: not that that much was found. The prevalence theory out there,
Speaker 1: of course, is that Dave was murdered by his co
Speaker 1: workers or somebody at the company because he was a whistleblower.
Speaker 1: What was he blowing whistleton on either National Lead going
Speaker 1: to the plant itself, I mean, because again National Lead
Speaker 1: was running it, but they didn't actually own it, So
Speaker 1: maybe he was writing out National Lead to the government
Speaker 1: or writing out Joe. Can you for people who aren't
Speaker 1: familiar with the term whistleblower, can you explain that for folks?
Speaker 1: Is not everybody knows that somebody who sees wrongdoing at
Speaker 1: your company or within the government or whatever and reports
Speaker 1: it to the authorities or or maybe reports it to
Speaker 1: the press. That kind of thing. They're called whistleblowers. Also,
Speaker 1: you know, one man's whistle whistleblower of course is one man,
Speaker 1: and there's another man's just playing leaker. It just all
Speaker 1: depends a lot of people. People leak constant, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: kind of thing when you when you leak, you know
Speaker 1: a lot of people leak for their own personal reasons.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes people will leak and then when they
Speaker 1: get busted, they'll try to call themselves a whistleblower like that.
Speaker 1: Check at the n S A who recently gave some
Speaker 1: documents to the press and then she got busted for
Speaker 1: it and uh, and then she tried to claim, Oh, no,
Speaker 1: I was a whistleblower. No, really not isn't is it,
Speaker 1: Karen Silkwood. Isn't she considered I mean, her death is serious,
Speaker 1: and that's a whole another thing, and that's why the
Speaker 1: murder thing made me think of it. But isn't she
Speaker 1: considered a bit of a whistleblower? Yeah? I don't you
Speaker 1: know she was in a nuclear reactive facility of nuclear facility.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember. It's been so long since
Speaker 1: I read anything about that or some people anything. I
Speaker 1: can't remember if she actually ever actually did and the
Speaker 1: actually whistle blowing, or if she just died and she
Speaker 1: was supposed to she was supposed to give statements. I
Speaker 1: remember them, but I can remember she would be considered
Speaker 1: a whistle I think I think we're probably beating that
Speaker 1: one to death. Yeah, let's let's go back to the
Speaker 1: but but anyway, that was, that was That is one
Speaker 1: of the reigning theories out there. But the only problem
Speaker 1: I have with the whistleblower theories that the cat was
Speaker 1: really out of the bag by four when Dave died.
Speaker 1: National That had actually been telling the Automic Energy Commission,
Speaker 1: and then after that the Energy Department since at least
Speaker 1: about miscellaneous contamination problems that they were having. In fact,
Speaker 1: they kept going to the government and saying, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: this is not a good situation. Like, for example, there
Speaker 1: were some massive concrete tanks for radioactive waste. One of
Speaker 1: them they discovered had some big cracks in it and
Speaker 1: it was leading leaking radioactive waste into the ground the
Speaker 1: contaminating groundwater. And National League goes to again the government says, hey,
Speaker 1: we've got a problem here. Your tanks are leaking. The
Speaker 1: government says, okay, well, the cracks only go down so far,
Speaker 1: not all the way to the bottom, so don't fill
Speaker 1: the tank up any further than the height of the cracks,
Speaker 1: and that takes care of the problem. So that was
Speaker 1: an example of that. Yeah, yeah, that's just one example
Speaker 1: of that. National Yeah. Essentially, National Lad they did their job,
Speaker 1: they did. Yeah, and so h as far as somebody
Speaker 1: from National Lad murdering Dave, there's no excuse there that
Speaker 1: National lad was they were. It was well documented that
Speaker 1: they had done everything they could keep the government abreast
Speaker 1: and everything. The government just said, hey, we don't care,
Speaker 1: and so there was really no liability on their part.
Speaker 1: I I questioned that. I do question that that isn't
Speaker 1: blaming the boss national national lead. Is that who it was?
Speaker 1: National led of Ohio. I kind of feel like maybe
Speaker 1: they could have taken steps to fix things, but not
Speaker 1: wanting to foot the bill, just kept turning to the U.
Speaker 1: S G And saying, hey, guys, that was the thing.
Speaker 1: Though essentially, you know, the government paid them a you know,
Speaker 1: a certain amount of money to do this and there
Speaker 1: and and this was above and beyond really probably what
Speaker 1: they felt that was in their job description. They just said, dude,
Speaker 1: just needs to be fixed or give us money. Would
Speaker 1: they have even had the authority to fix it, I'm
Speaker 1: sure if they I'm sure if they had actually said, hey, government,
Speaker 1: we're going to fix those cracks in that tank and
Speaker 1: on our own dime, the government would said okay, Or
Speaker 1: the government would have formed a Blue Ribbon commission and
Speaker 1: studied it for ten years and then you know, so
Speaker 1: there's the whole thing about the fact that they were
Speaker 1: leaking uranium dust into the atmosphere of the areas. So
Speaker 1: the you were talking about this before is they had
Speaker 1: big bags on their ventilation system to capture all of
Speaker 1: that material. It's kind of like in your home ventilation
Speaker 1: system we have those funny paper cardboardy things that stopped
Speaker 1: the crud from going in. It's a massive version of that.
Speaker 1: Those things failed once a month, like they were supposed
Speaker 1: to last months and months and months, and they always
Speaker 1: failed every month. If you're doing this for ten, for
Speaker 1: ten twenty years, don't you think that at some point
Speaker 1: somebody would say, um, we should find a new bag. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like really, this this vacuum cleaner bag sucks, which the
Speaker 1: whole system sucked. But then yeah, I I and I
Speaker 1: don't know. Again, that was reported by the way to
Speaker 1: to the government. The government just saiday, you know, but
Speaker 1: I think that whistleblower allegation. Just to get back to
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, Okay, they were reporting that to
Speaker 1: the government and the Department of Energy. It didn't really
Speaker 1: come out to the public until eighty four, and that's when,
Speaker 1: as you put it, the cat really came out of
Speaker 1: the bag. Well, the thing about it is is, uh, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: that's when the public first became aware of it, but
Speaker 1: there were actually there were there were things that happened
Speaker 1: for that as as early as like nineteen six one.
Speaker 1: There was a University of Cincinnati study they found groundwater
Speaker 1: contamination around the plan uh and then later on a
Speaker 1: year later, the United States Geologic Survey confirmed this. And
Speaker 1: so it's not like it was carefully hidden within the
Speaker 1: bounds of just National Lead and the Department of Energy.
Speaker 1: It's also the six season seventies information transfer. It's a
Speaker 1: very slow process unlike today. I mean, remember we're spoiled.
Speaker 1: Something happens and we could technically all know about it
Speaker 1: the very same if not next day. Well yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: this is early sixties. The environment was not as hot
Speaker 1: button an issue then. But then twenty years later, UM one,
Speaker 1: the Ohio e p A that's Environmental Protection Agency, they
Speaker 1: found radio active contamination in the wells around Fernald. That
Speaker 1: was one, and they also inspected Fernald and the plant
Speaker 1: itself in March eighty four found lots of violations of
Speaker 1: hazar this waste laws again, and that was March eighty four,
Speaker 1: that was months before Dave disappeared. So we're really what
Speaker 1: we're saying is that there was no need for a whistleblower.
Speaker 1: The whistle it was blown. Yeah, so it was blown
Speaker 1: up anymore, there was no whistle to blow, not really. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so that's why I had the whistleblower theory for me.
Speaker 1: It kind of falls flat. Um, Yeah, I mean, also,
Speaker 1: who would he have been talking to. Obviously the whistle
Speaker 1: was blown as far as the government knowing about it,
Speaker 1: so he would have been talking to somebody with the
Speaker 1: press right to out the government, which was not, which
Speaker 1: was obviously not making it really well known. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: if he was talking to a reporter, what do you
Speaker 1: think the reporter would have would have come whoever it was,
Speaker 1: would have come forward and confirmed this and nobody has
Speaker 1: of course. Or maybe on the other hand, maybe he
Speaker 1: went to the FEDS and just said, hey, there's all
Speaker 1: this stuff going on, not realizing National Let had already
Speaker 1: been keeping them all apprized of all these issues anyway,
Speaker 1: So he contacts the Department of Energy. He says, hey,
Speaker 1: you guys have to know about what National Letters doing
Speaker 1: that plan, Man, it's just crazy responsible And the guy
Speaker 1: at the government says, yeah, let me get your name
Speaker 1: and address and everything and then he calls the hit squad,
Speaker 1: the federal the federal hit squad and knocks him off.
Speaker 1: But again, why would you do that when it's already
Speaker 1: the case that you know, it's come out in public anywhere.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I don't really have a
Speaker 1: good sense of Dave's personality. I don't have the sense
Speaker 1: that he's this type of guy. But what if Dave
Speaker 1: was talking with other people about wanting to either like
Speaker 1: unionize or bring a class action lawsuit against I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows what kind of sickness and contamination the workers
Speaker 1: were suffering from. So had he been kind of talking about, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, my doctor says I'm inhaling a lot of
Speaker 1: uranium and that's super unhealthy for me and I'm at
Speaker 1: high risk and we should probably try to get a
Speaker 1: settlement from the government and talk to the wrong person.
Speaker 1: I mean that, you know, if he was the kind
Speaker 1: of main person championing that. But again I don't he
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like that. I didn't seem like a troublemaker.
Speaker 1: But I don't think he did that because again, Harry
Speaker 1: Easterling his carpool but didn't say Dave ever said anything
Speaker 1: about that to him, But Harry, I would stay quiet too, Harry,
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about also made a point of
Speaker 1: saying that Dave seemed to know his stuff about what
Speaker 1: was going on in the in the plants. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: kept an eye on that stuff. Yeah. And it was
Speaker 1: funny is that when you read it, you'll say, well,
Speaker 1: Dave knew. He would say, oh, if you're working around
Speaker 1: this thing, stay away from its higher radiation, if you're
Speaker 1: this this thing, well, but he maintained the stuff, so
Speaker 1: he like if it was something to say, was one
Speaker 1: of those uranium dust bags, Yeah, he totally knew because
Speaker 1: those things were always full, because because they were always breaking.
Speaker 1: Like he would have had just general observational knowledge. He
Speaker 1: could have been someone like me who, um is a
Speaker 1: little bit of a warrior and likes to don't worry
Speaker 1: about anything. You're right, but I mean, you know, somebody
Speaker 1: who likes to be a little more safety conscious and
Speaker 1: aware of their surroundings, whereas other people, you know, you
Speaker 1: guys are good examples of this, are a little more
Speaker 1: prone to be like, let's just go do this thing
Speaker 1: and see how it works out. And I'm like, no, no,
Speaker 1: there's a radiom in those pipes, and you guys are like, oh, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll put the black Cat fireworks in there. You know,
Speaker 1: I guess radiation it's fine. I mean, I think there
Speaker 1: are just people like that in the world who are
Speaker 1: a little more aware. And uh yeah, we said he
Speaker 1: was safety minded, so he might have you know, he
Speaker 1: probably went out to look out for his his fellow worker.
Speaker 1: But again I don't think that necessarily he was actually
Speaker 1: championed some sort of Nah, there's no nobody's reported that
Speaker 1: there was a good reason for him to have been murdered.
Speaker 1: Well somebody, Yeah, now, not really. And also if they
Speaker 1: if they had murdered him, it seems kind of self
Speaker 1: depeting to push him into a furnace at the plant. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's scrutiny. Well the problem, of course, I mean
Speaker 1: this is this story is a bit sensationalized because we've
Speaker 1: got unsolved mysteries in the mix, which seems to have
Speaker 1: inserted some details. But you've been looking at the court
Speaker 1: documents and not all of that stuff is there. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: that's that's it. I mean, if you look get the
Speaker 1: unsolved mysteries, they know that piece of stainless steel wire
Speaker 1: that was looped in three circles. In their video, they
Speaker 1: implied that the wire had been looped around his ankles
Speaker 1: and used a lowering men. Yeah, the third loop was
Speaker 1: used for a hook on the highest and so they
Speaker 1: could raise his body up and then drop it into
Speaker 1: the furnace. Um. But the problem is is no press
Speaker 1: councer court documents mentioned the stainless steel wire. It's only
Speaker 1: in the unsolved mysteries. Yeah. So from the Cincinnati inquirers
Speaker 1: able to find out the following things were found in
Speaker 1: the furnace. The keys to the keys, to box, towel box,
Speaker 1: metal islets and toe plates from a pair of boots,
Speaker 1: other metal bits, and a few toe toe fragmes. They
Speaker 1: weren't melted, but they found them that the boots. The
Speaker 1: boots were gone, the metal was still there. Yeah, metal
Speaker 1: bits and bone fragments. There's nothing in there about loops
Speaker 1: of steel wire. And then there's the keys. If the
Speaker 1: keys were found in Day's toolbox but also in the furnace,
Speaker 1: this could mean somebody took the keys and planted them
Speaker 1: in the furnace us. But on the other hand, it
Speaker 1: could also mean that Da've just had more than one
Speaker 1: set of keys you could have had work keys and
Speaker 1: home keys, which would again make give more credence to
Speaker 1: the fact that he was totally comfortable just leaving his
Speaker 1: you know, three work keys around instead of saying, yeah,
Speaker 1: he left his house key and his you know, storage
Speaker 1: unit key, and his car key, he just like left
Speaker 1: sitting in that room. He had his personal keys with him,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really matter as much if they got stolen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. He would not be the first person that
Speaker 1: had more than one set of keys. Yeah. I have
Speaker 1: a hard time understanding why anybody would drop the keys
Speaker 1: if they murdered him, whether they would go back and
Speaker 1: drop the keys in the furnace after, because it's it's
Speaker 1: like a ham fisted attempt to prove that he was
Speaker 1: in there, they was in there. Yeah, so that's where
Speaker 1: it's a ham fisted attempt at destroying the evidence. But
Speaker 1: again I say, Okay, if you're gonna destroy evidence, you've
Speaker 1: got a whole why would you dump the evidence because
Speaker 1: maybe is the body instead of the vat of acids
Speaker 1: that are available. I mean that like he got murdered
Speaker 1: somewhere else since someone was trying to dump evidence in
Speaker 1: there for whatever, And I don't know one of the
Speaker 1: other bodies that they put into that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know why they would find bone fragments necessarily,
Speaker 1: but you know, you could, I guess you could get
Speaker 1: to the point where you would be kind of a
Speaker 1: dummy and be like us and be like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really really hot and molten, so it's obviously gonna
Speaker 1: melt everything versus the acid, Like, I don't know what
Speaker 1: it's gonna do, so I'll just throw it in that
Speaker 1: molten stuff and it'll melt everything. Yeah, maybe they didn't realize.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no way this plant will ever shut
Speaker 1: this thing down for long enough for anybody to pull
Speaker 1: anything out of it, so it's just lost in the forever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it might have been at whoever, whoever it was, if
Speaker 1: somebody did that didn't realize that they were they were
Speaker 1: actually keeping records of the temperature in the furnace, which
Speaker 1: kind of makes sense that they would, but I didn't
Speaker 1: realize that it would sort of be at this giveaway
Speaker 1: they pushed his body in there. But again, at the
Speaker 1: same time, if you're disposing and you totally want to
Speaker 1: get rid of the body, then it makes no sense
Speaker 1: to go back later and throw the keys in there,
Speaker 1: no sense at all at all. And let's say, if
Speaker 1: you don't really care if the body is found, but
Speaker 1: the main reason to push it in there was just
Speaker 1: to eradicate, you know, the indications that you had, say
Speaker 1: acts murdered him or blunting him to death or strangled him,
Speaker 1: just whatever evidence figured you're going to survive for absolutely.
Speaker 1: So if that was her, if that was your motive,
Speaker 1: then again, what purpose does it serve to drop the
Speaker 1: keys in there? Why wouldn't you just leave them where
Speaker 1: they are a sewer drain on your way home. Maybe
Speaker 1: it was the ham fisted attempt by the management to
Speaker 1: cover up what you know they thought was or a
Speaker 1: ham fisted attempts to prove that he did it willingly.
Speaker 1: And so well, I'll just toss the keys in where
Speaker 1: they found him there they think he's at, because that
Speaker 1: idiot obviously got himself killed. And I don't know, lots
Speaker 1: of fisting in this. Yeah, I know it makes no
Speaker 1: sense to me. I but I can only conclude that
Speaker 1: m robots, oh god, those things, but I can only robots. Sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we keep interrupting you. I'm sorry. Um, Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: I think he had two sets of keys, so I
Speaker 1: think he probably did. I don't disagree with that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so murder maybe not, Yeah, probably, you know, well, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it wasn't murdered. I'm just not seeing it.
Speaker 1: There's no physical evidence, but of course there isn't because
Speaker 1: well they shoved his body into the furnace. So yeah,
Speaker 1: actually we keep calling out a ham fist to cover up,
Speaker 1: but actually it's a pretty dang good cover up that
Speaker 1: they did. Pretty well. Whatever happened him, whatever evidence might
Speaker 1: have been there is not there. Yeah. Yeah. As far
Speaker 1: as motive, well, again leaving inside the whistle blower thing,
Speaker 1: well I can't see a motive there either, and there's
Speaker 1: no evidence of whistle blowing, so I don't know who
Speaker 1: knows unless he's got dirt on somebody for something else. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there could have been something else that It could have
Speaker 1: been just one of the serial one of those one
Speaker 1: of the security guards was just a serial killer, or
Speaker 1: the mob was involved somehow and he was spilled the
Speaker 1: beans on the mob. I mean, you know, really seriously,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to think about murder, it
Speaker 1: could have been just a random serial killer kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You know, it could have been just a general heat
Speaker 1: of the moment, fight killing kind of thing. I didn't
Speaker 1: mean the heat of the moment, nice fun, I know,
Speaker 1: but you know, somebody just losing their gourd and beating
Speaker 1: the holy hell out even going Oops, he's not breathing.
Speaker 1: I gotta get rid of in here. Better shove to
Speaker 1: the furnace. It's the closest place. I don't want to
Speaker 1: be seen carrying him, right, Yeah, he's heavy, I'm lazy.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get rid of him. Well. Also I don't
Speaker 1: want to be seen carrying him. Yeah. So are there
Speaker 1: any more theory? Yeah? One war, which is that Dave
Speaker 1: was not in the furnace at all. Maybe Dave ran
Speaker 1: off to join the circus um. But there were some
Speaker 1: parties that said that maybe he didn't die in that furnace.
Speaker 1: Among them all State Life Insurance Company, Credit Life Insurance Company,
Speaker 1: National Led of Ohio, Inc. Workman's Compensation Bureau of Ohio.
Speaker 1: Uh So, they were all defendants in a suit that
Speaker 1: was brought by Dave box family. They wanted him to
Speaker 1: declare legally dead so they could collect benefits like social security,
Speaker 1: Workman's comp life insurance, and of course, as I said earlier,
Speaker 1: than the coroner's office wasn't signing issuing a signed death
Speaker 1: certificate or any There's no body. Yeah, no body, no
Speaker 1: evidence approvable body. Yeah, and I don't even know bones
Speaker 1: like that that have been subjected to that. You're not
Speaker 1: even gonna get DNA, even if DNA was available at
Speaker 1: that time. There's no no usable DNA. It is so cooked. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't imagine. It's so how the hell do you tell?
Speaker 1: For share? I mean, most people, most people kind of
Speaker 1: believed it was Dave, But as far as provident, well
Speaker 1: you can't. Yeah. I mean, he literally could have gone
Speaker 1: to a graveyard and dug up a set of bones
Speaker 1: and thrown them in with his glasses and a pair
Speaker 1: of his boots. He could have thrown in his lucky
Speaker 1: rabbit foot for all we know. Well, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: the bones were somewhat identifiable as human. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, if you've seen a rabbit there.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, Okay, a little bit of hyperboly, Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying, like, for all i'd like, we
Speaker 1: don't know, we have no way of even probably realistically
Speaker 1: identifying if they were human or not, because we don't
Speaker 1: have no DNA markers or anything. They were called they
Speaker 1: call them bone fragments too. I don't know how big
Speaker 1: the pieces were. I assume that human bones if you
Speaker 1: look at them under a microscope, you know. I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, but yeah, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: But apparently according to according to the courts and everything,
Speaker 1: they seem to be satisfied that they were indeed human bones.
Speaker 1: But I don't know how they how they went about
Speaker 1: confirming that. So did Dave leave town and start a
Speaker 1: new life somewhere? Um, I kind of doubt it. This
Speaker 1: is possible. Well, it's possible, but I don't believe it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really. As much as I would like to call
Speaker 1: this cover up or conspiracy, I hate to say it,
Speaker 1: but if that's truly his, his remains in that that
Speaker 1: that smelting pot or whatever that thing was. I think
Speaker 1: it was an accident. Industrial accidents have been a lot.
Speaker 1: If the velvet rope wasn't in place, he may have
Speaker 1: walked in. Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna rank them in order,
Speaker 1: in order by likelihood, in my opinion, at least my
Speaker 1: opinions that the series are number one, suicide, number two, murder,
Speaker 1: number three, accidents and the accident for me is number
Speaker 1: three on the list, and last of all faked. His
Speaker 1: own death is number four. So that's my that's that's
Speaker 1: where I meant the reason, not saying again accidents. He
Speaker 1: had no business in plants six. There was no reason
Speaker 1: for him to be. He had no business there, And frankly,
Speaker 1: accidentally falling into one of these furnaces strikes me as ludicrous.
Speaker 1: It really, I mean, really kind of kind of absurd.
Speaker 1: I just find suicide a lot easier to believe than
Speaker 1: accident myself. Devin, what do you think? I guess I
Speaker 1: don't like any of the theories. Um, I most believe
Speaker 1: I think accident. I don't believe suicide. I don't want
Speaker 1: to believe murder because just like of of the horrors
Speaker 1: in this world, going into a furnace alive, especially actually
Speaker 1: if he was murdered, I don't think they actually shoved
Speaker 1: him in alive because they're at least unconscious, Because I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not are you going to wrestle somebody into a furnace?
Speaker 1: Sure as hell wouldn't do, all right, So then I
Speaker 1: guess I like murder the most because it's probably the
Speaker 1: least painful for him. I suppose. Yeah, I'm sure he
Speaker 1: was cute, was like blunting and then you know the furnace.
Speaker 1: He went. That's a good reason I like murder. And
Speaker 1: I got to admit murder is number two on my
Speaker 1: last time I and and murder is entirely possible. It's
Speaker 1: just that we have no evidence. And that's why that's
Speaker 1: why I'm going with suicide rather than I already said
Speaker 1: my night, I'm behind accident. All right. Well, alright, so
Speaker 1: you guys out there probably have your favorite theories, so
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to contact us, and let's let us
Speaker 1: know what they are hand time, right, Uh, So you
Speaker 1: can send us an email. We actually have email, believe
Speaker 1: it or not. It's Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: So yeah, way in today. Yeah, And we also have
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Speaker 1: it's not. It's a paperweight. We don't make murder weapons. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so that's about it. So anyway until next week, folks. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is thinking sideways HQ signing off. Like I said,
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