1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia and welcome back to work in progress. 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: Today's guest is a world renowned behavioral scientist. She has 3 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: worked everywhere from Google to the Obama administration. She was 4 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: actually the first behavioral science advisor to the United Nations 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: and completed a postdoctoral fellowship at Stanford University. She's been 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: featured in The New York Times, Forbes, Scientific, American, Freakonomics. 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: The list truly goes on and on, and by now, 8 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: I'm sure you all know that I was so geeked 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: to have this conversation with her today. I had one 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: million questions. Her brain is so fascinating and I cannot 11 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: wait to introduce you all to the phenomenal Dr Maya Shunker. 12 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: In addition to using behavioral science to advise presidents and 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: the biggest company on Earth, Dr Schunker has also started 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: her own podcast, which she hosts and produces, called A 15 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans. The show puts the spotlight on 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: guests from all walks of life who have experienced extraordinary 17 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: circumstances and takes a deeper look at how that changed 18 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: the course of their lives. And that's a topic Maya 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: knows plenty about from her own life experience as we 20 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: will hear for ourselves. Let's get to talking. My It's 21 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: so nice to have you on the show today. And 22 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: before I ask you one million questions about your fascinating work, 23 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: I actually always like to go backwards because I sit 24 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: across from you today, you know, fascinated by your career 25 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: and wanting to talk about behavioral science and and how 26 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: the brain works. And I wonder how you got to 27 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: be an expert on the brain. You know, we're were 28 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: you fascinated by science as a kid? Was was eight 29 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: or nine year old Maya really into what made people tick? 30 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: Or were you on a whole other path? I was 31 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: on a well, first all, it's great to be here, Sophia, 32 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: and it's so lovely to meet you, um the fan 33 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 1: of your show. U. So yeah. I mean if you 34 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: had asked nine year old Maya about whether she was 35 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: eventually going to become a scientist, to had been like, 36 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: there was no way, that's not even possible. Um. When 37 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: I was a kid, my true passion was playing the violin. Um. 38 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: So when I was six years old, my mom went 39 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: up to her attic and brought down my grandmother's violin. 40 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: That she had brought with her all the way from India, 41 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: and she tells me that when she opened up the case, 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: my eyes just lit up, like it was an instant 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: connection that I felt with the instrument. And things really 44 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: picked up for me when I was nine because UM 45 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: I auditioned for the Juilliard School of Music in New 46 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: York and was very fortunately accepted, and that began weekly 47 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: trips from Connecticut to New York, um every Saturday for 48 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: about ten hours of classes. And then when I was 49 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 1: a teenager, things picked up even more. When it's a 50 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: Pearlman asked me to be his private violence student, and 51 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 1: he was my role model. I mean, in my mind, 52 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: the best violinist of our time. And as you can imagine, 53 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: I felt very intimidated in the Juilliard climate. Right, it's 54 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: very easy to feel imposter syndrome and and like you 55 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: don't really have what it takes. But when Pearlman gave 56 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: me his vote of confidence, I felt like, oh maybe 57 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: I maybe I do have what it takes. Maybe I 58 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: could actually go pro. And so I really doubled down 59 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: on my desire to be a professional at that point, 60 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: and every decision I made from that point on was 61 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: was in pursuit of wanting to become a concert violinist. 62 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: But then when I was fifteen, I had a sudden 63 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: hand injury that derailed all of my ambitions to become 64 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: a violinist. And actor has basically told me that I 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: could never play the violin again. So that that changed 66 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: my life in a pretty significant way. Wow. And I imagine, 67 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: especially when you're so dedicated to something as a young person, 68 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: I can't help but think about cognitive development and understanding 69 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: that you know, we don't have fully formed brains until 70 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: we're twenty six. Also, I think about all the dumb 71 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: ship that I did in my early twenties, and and 72 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: I just look around and I go, who lets us 73 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: do anything until we have a full brain. But I 74 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: think about you as a young child, I mean, from 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: six to fifteen, loving this instrument and and developing the 76 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: plan of your life with this instrument involved. I imagine 77 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: that that must have been quite traumatic to be told 78 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, the trajectory of your life has just changed absolutely. 79 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: And I think as a child, you know, you don't 80 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: always ask these big existential questions about who you are 81 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: and what you bring to this world, until sometimes you 82 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: lose something and it inspires you to start to ask 83 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: these questions like who am I? And especially who am 84 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: I without the violin? Right? It's been such a foundational 85 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: part of my identity for so long. Um. There's this 86 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: insight in cognitive science called identity foreclosure, and it refers 87 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: to the idea that we tend to, especially in adolescence, 88 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: but it can continue through adulthood. We tend to attach 89 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: ourselves quite quickly to a very specific identity, and we 90 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: can cling to that identity and feel very fixed in 91 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 1: that identity in ways that prevent us from exploring other 92 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: avenues in life, other ways of being or living, or 93 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: other pursuits that we have. And I definitely felt prey 94 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: to identity foreclosure. You know, I thought I'm first and 95 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: foremost a violinist. Um. If people ask me who I 96 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: was as a kid, it was like I was first 97 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: of violinist, and then secondly I was maya you know um. 98 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: And so I I think having to confront the fact 99 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: that I couldn't play at such an early age and 100 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: that I was forced to pivot help challenge this foreclosure 101 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: within myself and forced me to see my identity as 102 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: far more malleable than I had, and I think it 103 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: served me well. I think it's helped me navigate the 104 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: many twists and turns that have come in my life 105 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: ever since, in ways that I might not have had 106 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: I not been, had this change not been forced upon 107 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: me at such a young age. That's fascinating. I think 108 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: about the the importance of being able to pivot, being 109 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: able to react in real time, and and although not 110 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: in a great circumstance, you learning that as a kid, 111 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: I imagine really changed your life in some incredible ways. 112 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: There are two details before we keep pulling on that 113 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: thread that I would love to ask about, just for 114 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: some of the folks listening at home, because I imagine 115 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, and we've all had the moment where someone 116 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: says something that we're supposed to know, we go yep, 117 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: And I know there's someone sitting at home going who's 118 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: Ita Perlman? And if and I am curious if you 119 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: if you talk about it, I don't know if you do, 120 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: but but what did happen to your hand? I I'm 121 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: fascinated for whatever reason, I'm studying for this medical show. 122 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: So the architecture of the hands and feet to me, 123 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: I just think is the most sort of sublime and 124 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: complex thing in the human body. And so I, I 125 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: don't know, there's something I'm very curious as to, you know, 126 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: in these small spaces with all these little bones, what 127 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: what happens and and how a doctor could determine what 128 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: to your to your point a career ending injuries. So 129 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: if you could answer those two questions you're wondering. Yeah, 130 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: I know, for those who are not steached in the 131 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: classical musically the violent world, UM, you might not know, 132 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: but it's a Perlman is Yeah, widely considered the greatest 133 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: violentist of our time. Um. Certainly as a little kid 134 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: he was. I mean, he was so his abilities were 135 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: so out of reach. Right. It's like I remember when 136 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: I was really young, my mom brought me to one 137 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: of his concerts and we found a way to go backstage, 138 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: and I remember meeting him in person and just thinking 139 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: it was the coolest thing that had happened to me 140 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: in my life. Right, It's like an aspiring um young 141 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: singer songwriter meeting Taylor Swift backstage and being like, oh wow, 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: I could never dream of ever getting to interact with 143 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: this person in the future. That I so admire what 144 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: they do. So the fact that he took me on 145 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: as a student. You know, I mentioned the vote of confidence, 146 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: but more importantly, you know that this man who was 147 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: an absolute experts at his craft, was now teaching me 148 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: um so many valuable lessons about how to play the violin. Well, 149 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: um so I cherished still to this day, the opportunity 150 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: to learn from from one of the greatest um In 151 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: terms of my hand, I I tore tendons in my hand. 152 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: And you know, for something like the violin, which requires 153 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: so much a jill it, that can be a career ender, right, 154 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess you don't appreciate the dexterity again 155 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: until until you lose it. And I ended up having 156 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: surgeries and a lot of scar tissue form and ultimately, yeah, 157 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: that ended my career. M M, I'm so sorry. Oh no, 158 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: it's totally fine. I mean when I look back now, 159 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you know, it was everything to me then. 160 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: But obviously in anyone's life, right when theyre when they 161 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: face a change and they move on. I think, you know, 162 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: one lesson I learned was really digging into what it 163 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: was about the violin that I loved and trying to 164 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: figure out if I could find that in other areas. 165 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: I think we tend as humans to attach ourselves to 166 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: specific things, to specific things that we do, and it 167 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: can be much more, It could be much safer and 168 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: more durable to attach ourselves to the features of a 169 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: pursuit that really makes us tick. And So if you'd 170 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: asked me as a kid, you know, what do you 171 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: love about the violin? I would say I love the 172 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: way it sounds, I love the way that it feels. 173 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I love the notes that I can deuce on this instrument. 174 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: But actually, I think the real thing that got me 175 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: so excited about playing the violin is that I could 176 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: forge a deep emotional connection with people that I've never 177 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: met before within moments of playing a piece. So you know, 178 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: as a young kid, you go on stage and there's 179 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: all these people in an audience that are total strangers 180 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: to you. You're a total stranger to them, but within 181 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: moments you're making them feel something, and that's an incredible 182 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: feeling to get people to feel things they never felt before, 183 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: or to bond in this really deep emotional way very quickly. 184 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: And I think what I've learned in hindsight is that 185 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: that's actually the thing that I found so intoxicating about 186 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: playing the violin. It was the ability to connect with 187 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: people in this deep way. And I feel like, in 188 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: many ways, my studying the human mind is another way 189 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: of fulfilling this passion of wanting to understand how it 190 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: is that people feel things, or think things, or develop 191 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: their attitudes or beliefs about the world. And in many ways, 192 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: my podcast A Slight Change of Plans taps into my 193 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: desire to get to really unlock people and discover together 194 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: how it is that they've navigated these big changes in 195 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: their lives. And I know, Sophia, you also interviewed Hillary 196 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: Clinton for your show, but it's wonderful to feeble to 197 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: go into a room with her and say, you know, hi, Hillary, 198 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: like Aprico of Nothing, what was the hardest moment you've 199 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: ever had in your life? Or what's your biggest insecurity, 200 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: or how did you navigate this momentous moment? And so 201 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: you can kind of cut through all the pleasantries and 202 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: you have license to really dig deep with a person. 203 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: And so I've loved creating A Slight Change of Plans 204 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: because I think in many ways I'm tapping into that 205 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: same love and passion that I had with the violin 206 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: so many years ago. And it strikes me that the 207 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: thing you're talking about is a safe container or a 208 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 1: welcoming container for empathy and experience. That's the way I 209 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: think about storytelling and what I do, you know, whether 210 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: it's on this podcast, whether it's in film and television. Also, 211 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: I don't don't feel like I can do to the 212 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: best of my ability without music. They're so intrinsically connected, 213 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: the music that I source and then playlist for characters, 214 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: the music that goes with a great scene when it's 215 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: finally being edited. And I think that there is something 216 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: about the experiences you know, that you and I have 217 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: shared as performers that really can allow people to all 218 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: meet somewhere. And sometimes that's people who otherwise would be 219 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: to use your earlier term, in in whatever their silo 220 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: of their own identity foreclosure might be, and people can 221 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: share an experience and suddenly have empathy for someone who 222 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: they're their particular identity may have told them to discount before, 223 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: which I find really powerful. And it does feel like 224 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: the through line from making art to studying the human mind, 225 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: and and in that leap that you talk about or 226 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: that sort of can acted arc What was the moment 227 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: when you had the lightbulb when when something pointed to 228 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: in a direction of the human mind of behavioral science. Yeah, 229 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: I mean, first, I will say that you're absolutely right. 230 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,479 Speaker 1: I think that one thing that has been really empowering 231 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: for me to learn as a cognitive scientist and has 232 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: helped me go through hard times is just how much 233 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: of our psychology we share with one another. Right. We 234 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: can have such different life experiences, but at the end 235 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: of the day, all of our minds, in some foundational 236 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: way are wired very similarly, right, And I think it's 237 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: important to recognize that because we can feel a lot 238 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: more camaraderie with one another than we otherwise might. Um. 239 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: So I've I've always thought to myself, like Stuttying, the 240 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: mind is the greatest empathy builder. It gives you so 241 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: much compassion for other people's views and mindsets, and when 242 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: you understand why people think the way they do, then 243 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: in turn, you can feel a lot of compassion and 244 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: empathy for their views. So that's the first thing, um 245 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: in terms of my lightbulb moments. So, the summer before college, UM, 246 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: I was supposed to be in China touring with my 247 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: violin classmates, UM. But instead I was at home helping 248 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: my parents clean their basement. So awesome summer equally cool 249 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: as the counterfactual world. And I helped my mom cleaned 250 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: her house out last week, like four hours a day. 251 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: So I respect the choice. I love it. Very kind 252 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: of you to do that. I'm sure Mom really appreciated it. 253 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: And so I I stumbled upon UM one of my 254 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: sister's old of course books from college, and it was 255 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: about the science of how the mind works. In particular, 256 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: it was about our ability to comprehend and learn language. 257 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: And this was something that I had always taken for granted, 258 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: my ability to speak and comprehend language. And what this 259 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: book taught me is that when you pull the curtain 260 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: back and you realize how incredibly sophisticated the cognitive cognitive 261 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: machinery is that gives rise to language, you really end 262 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: up in all of the human mind. Like I think, 263 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: I think so many of us are so hard on 264 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: ourselves every day, right, we're like, oh, I don't like 265 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: this part of myself. I don't like this part of myself. 266 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: And when you take a step back and you look 267 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: at all that the mind is capable of, you will 268 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: feel like you're crushing it every freaking day. You feel like, 269 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: this is the human experience is incredible. I'm legitimately crushing it. 270 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: And so I just remember being in total awe of 271 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: this organ and feeling like, feeling infinite wonder about how 272 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: it is that we can produce language. But then also 273 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: it led me to ask these other questions, like, well, 274 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: if that's what's involved in speaking or producing language, what's 275 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: involved in doing high level mathematics or complex decision making 276 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: or engaging in productive discourse with another human being or 277 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: falling in love? Like it just it opened up within 278 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: me a very very deep curiosity for how it is 279 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: that we go through this world and navigate it. M M. 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: I love that. I love it, and it's making me think. 281 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've had time to read this book, 282 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: as you know, you're doing major scientific research of your own. 283 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: But Bill Bryson, you know, who wrote a History of Everything, 284 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: and uh, he's such an incredible author, and he wrote 285 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: this book called The Body, which was the first thing 286 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: I jumped into prepping for um my my medical job. 287 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: And one of the things that fascinated me most was 288 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: the actual scientific disproving of these very tribal identities we carry. 289 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: There's a moment where he talks about melanin and explains 290 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: how it works and how humans evolved in different climates 291 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: to have different amounts of it in their skin, and 292 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: and he's sitting in a lab with a doctor who 293 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: exercises a postage stamp size four layers deep piece of 294 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: human skin from a cadaver. While he's in this lab explaining, 295 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: you know, this woman is explaining to him how it 296 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: works and she holds it up to the light and 297 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: he's so shocked. He says, it's translucent, and she says, yeah, 298 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: that's all that racist. And we have these fixed identities, 299 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: and you see how you know, legacies of colonization and 300 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: supremacy have been so harmful to humans, and we really 301 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: are truly scientifically underneath it all all the same, and 302 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: it's it's fascinating to me how we can carry these beliefs, 303 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: we can carry these behaviors. The tendency to other anyone 304 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: is behavioral. It's not based in reality. And something that 305 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: always strikes me as interesting, you know, being a daughter 306 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: of immigrants who have very particular food traditions, is the 307 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: ways we tend to really get people involved in each other, um, 308 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: and in each other's worlds, families, lives, cultures can often 309 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: first be through food. M and I I'm often struck 310 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: by this curiosity. I think about this question, how could 311 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: we get people to love each other the way we 312 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: love each other's food? You know what? What is that 313 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: behavioral leap? Um? What identities do we have to kind 314 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: of do away with and how do we understand why 315 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: we form them in the first place. Yeah, it's so 316 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: interesting that you bring this up, because two days from 317 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 1: now I'm going to be interviewing Pudla left me first 318 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: season two of a slight change of plans, and she 319 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: built this incredible show called Taste in the Nation and 320 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: it's it's really an expedition into all of the immigrant 321 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: cultures that make up America and that food can be 322 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: this extraordinary vehicle to bring people together. I think she 323 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: says something like, you just can't hate if a plate 324 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: of food, you just can't. It's impossible. Um, and so 325 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 1: it can. It can really be this vehicle for connecting 326 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: humans across divides. But to your point, Sophia, about how 327 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 1: our tribe identities can inform the way that we see 328 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: the world and can breed division. There are some really 329 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: compelling research called cultural cognition. It refers to the fact 330 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: that we don't just develop our attitudes and beliefs about 331 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: the world based on facts. We like to think, Oh, 332 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: when someone doesn't agree with us on what we believe 333 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: our empirical matters, like whether climate change is real, or 334 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: whether the coronavirus is real, or whether gun control reform 335 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: can reduce gun debts, we like to think, let's just 336 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: let's just show them the facts. Let's just show them 337 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: more information. If you throw enough information in the way, 338 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: they'll change their minds. The research shows that's missing a 339 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: huge piece of the puzzle, which is that a lot 340 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: of what contributes to our attitude and belief formation is 341 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: our group membership. It's the tribal relations that we have 342 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: and the values that that tribe holds right. And so 343 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: what that means in practice is that when we engage 344 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: in certain behaviors, ones that might seem fairly trivial to 345 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: other people, like whether or not to wear a ma ask, 346 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I just get so exasperated. I'm like, 347 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's just a damned piece of cloth, 348 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: doesn't wear it. It'll keep you safe, I promise. But 349 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: then you realize that for some folks, wearing a mask 350 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: can actually threaten their sense of belonging to a broader 351 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: group that really matters to them and informs their sense 352 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: of self. And when you understand that, you can try 353 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: to use the right tools or tactics to engage with 354 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: folks in really productive ways, um that actually get them 355 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: to change their minds about things. And it reminds me 356 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: of conversation that I had for a slight change of 357 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: plans m with a but the man named Darrel Davis, 358 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: who's a black jazz musician who ends up going on 359 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 1: to inspire hundreds of people to leave white supremacy groups. 360 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: And he doesn't do it by throwing facts their way. 361 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: He engages in a lot of techniques that have been 362 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: corroborated by the science, like showing genuine curiosity for why 363 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: it is that someone might have arrived at their views 364 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: in the first place, asked them what evidence might change 365 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: their mind? Um, And I love that question because it 366 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: presupposes that they ought to change their mind in the 367 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: face of new evidence, which is something we can't always 368 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: take for granted, you want to increase your question to 369 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: statement ratio UM, so rather than talking at the person, 370 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: you're really talking with the person. And importantly, you want 371 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: to make sure that you talk in ways that allow 372 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: them to not feel like their entire belief system is 373 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: being threatened, because that can just lead them to create 374 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: a wall, right, to like shut down the conversation entirely, 375 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: but to engage with them in a way that allows 376 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: them to see, in this case, just how vile their 377 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: belief system is, but in ways that make them feel 378 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: like they can be redeemable. Right that you've identified at 379 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: least a semblance of humanity um, such that they can 380 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: in fact change their minds and change their ways. And 381 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: what Daryl reveal through his life experiences, you know, he 382 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: was able to get people not just leave the clan 383 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: that actually shut down whole chapter is because they just 384 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: didn't believe in the ideology at all. And it's an 385 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: extraordinary story. It's one that left me with some conflict 386 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: internally because I was thinking to myself, you know, Daryl 387 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: is so admirable that at the same time, why is 388 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: the burden falling on people of color to have to 389 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: convince people who have these reprehensible views to change their minds. 390 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: So left me with a lot of open questions and 391 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: it's I'm still I still feel lots of conflict thinking 392 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: about that episode, but it it can definitely get people 393 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: thinking differently about what's involved in mindset change. I think 394 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: that is such a conundrum that I struggle with because 395 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: if I think about gender issues, for example, I know 396 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: that a group of men sitting around talking about what 397 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: happens to women is not going to be as effective 398 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: as a few of us educating a group of men 399 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: on our reality. And yet it means that the the 400 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: burden of the emotional labor always falls on the oppressed group. 401 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: And and then I the way that I sort of 402 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: was able to row sternalize some of that for myself 403 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: as I thought about back in the day when I 404 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: was a camp counselor, and I thought, oh well, I 405 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: was tasked with and trusted with, by the way, being 406 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: responsible for other people's children for weeks on end, because 407 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: I had more information than those children about responsible behavior 408 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: in the wild, how to take care of a natural ecosystem, 409 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: how to have a buddy system, you know, with your 410 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: bunk mates. And I thought, oh right, I was their teacher, 411 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: I was their steward in nature, and I think it. 412 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is, but I have 413 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: found solace in decentralized power structures that centralized stewardship because 414 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: it allows us to, you know, come in, participate, educate, teach, 415 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: be activists, and then take moments of rest. I can't 416 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: imagine being the person who had to do all the 417 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: work all the time. I've tried that before and sperience burnout. Um, 418 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: but it is, it is. It's a really complex thing 419 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: because you you think about what would have happened if 420 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: Darryl hadn't done that work, if he hadn't followed his 421 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: feeling of calling. But then is it really his responsibility. 422 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: It's really hard. Yeah, there's a deep tension there. I 423 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: think one thing that also reassures me about his story 424 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: is that sometimes the most effective messengers of a new 425 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: way of thinking, our converts are people who went through 426 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: a journey of going from say, white supremacist to not. 427 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: And what we saw at daryl story is that when 428 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 1: he would convince one person, that person would in turn 429 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: convince lots of people within their network. You know, the 430 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: Department of Homeland Security uses this technique all the time, 431 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: which is when they're trying to engage in anti extremist reform, 432 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: they use people who were previously part of extremist groups 433 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: to be those messengers, because basically what happens is you 434 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: can the former extremists can talk with the current extre 435 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: miss and say, hey, look, we used to share the 436 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: same values. I started off in the same place that 437 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: you're in today. Let me walk you through my journey 438 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: of going from point A to point B to essentially 439 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: help you see the light and see that you're their 440 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: errors in the way that you're thinking about the world. 441 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: And so when there can be these positive is still 442 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: over effects, it at least allows me to see the 443 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: entire burden. Thankfully did not fall on Darryl Right. He 444 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: inspired this cascading effect of his early efforts and lead 445 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: people to become their own advocates um for anti racist work. 446 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, that's beautiful. I wonder when you talk 447 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: about that tension you know of his experience and and 448 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: what a great piece of information also for us anyone 449 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: who wants to show up for a cause to understand 450 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: that whomever chooses to join us can also go out 451 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 1: and advocate on behalf of it. I know so many 452 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: people will write into the show and say, love this 453 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: issue you guys talked about, or this really made me 454 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: feel inspired. But what can I do as one person? 455 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: And it's such a great reminder to continue coalition building 456 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: because we're not supposed to do this alone. But when 457 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: we think about the tension we all experience. And you know, 458 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: I mentioned a little bit of my family story, um, 459 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: and I know you and I both share experiences in 460 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: the world and especially in corporate worlds as women. And 461 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: I also know that you know your family immigrated from India, 462 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: so you exist in a bit of attention I imagine 463 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: as a woman as the daughter of immigrants. And then 464 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: I when I think about this precious little girl, you know, 465 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: taking up her violin. It's funny because as an adult 466 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: we look at um child genius and musicality and all 467 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: of these things and we go, oh, what a great kid. 468 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: But often as a kid, being really smart or having 469 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: some incredible talent, especially when it falls at least historically 470 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: under a banded umbrella, can really you a target, you know, 471 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: for bullying. And you mentioned growing up in Connecticut. What 472 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 1: was that tension present in your life or did you 473 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: have more of a of a great community that was 474 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: more idyllically welcoming of you know, everyone's personal identities. Yeah, 475 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: I wish it was, but it wasn't. Um. I experienced 476 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: a ton of bullying as a kid, and when you're young, 477 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: you don't know what the root cause of that bullying is. 478 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: You know. Um, in hindsight, I can look back and think, 479 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: oh wow, there were so few families of color in 480 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 1: the community that I grew up in. Was did race 481 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: play a role in in kids being pretty ruthless with 482 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: me and saying just horrible things? And but at the 483 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: time you think, no, it's just me like imax or 484 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm wy and I'm not like the rest and I'm 485 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, bad or whatever it is. Um. But yeah, absolutely, 486 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: I mean I think UM. I mean, I really admire 487 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: my parents looking back because you know, my mom just 488 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: a quick aside on the immigrant story. Like my mom, Um, 489 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: who's one of my role models. She met my dad 490 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: twenty days before they got married, and then she she 491 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: was she was a fifth grade teacher in India. She 492 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: meets my dad on January first, they decided to get 493 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: married that day. They get married twenty one days twenty 494 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: days later, and she ends up moving to this country, 495 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: um and leaving her entire I mean entire community behind 496 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: and they moved to Cambridge and they're just living in 497 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: a little dorm room. And I don't know if you've 498 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: seen the movie The Namesake, but it's very reminiscent of 499 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: my my parents immigrant story. But my mom is just 500 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: forced to figure out this whole thing herself, right, like 501 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: what this immigrant experience is like. And she tells me 502 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: to this day one of the reasons why she had 503 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,959 Speaker 1: four kids. I'm the youngest of four, is because she 504 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: was trying to build a little tribe around herself, a 505 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: little army, so that she would feel less lonely in 506 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: this country and feel like she had some kind of 507 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: support system. But one thing that I loved, you know, 508 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: we grew up in as I mentioned, in Connecticut, where 509 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: there were so few people of color that we could 510 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: bond with just their fierce pride in being Indian. Like 511 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: I always grew up knowing that my parents were so 512 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: deeply proud to be from India, and they would boldly, 513 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, teach us the traditions and the culture and 514 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: the religion, and oh my gosh, the delicious food. I 515 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: like cringe now because I'm like, why did I want 516 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: pizza when my mom was cooking delicious South Indian meals? 517 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: But I'm grateful that over time I started to feel 518 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: that same sense of pride um in small ways, like 519 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: making sure that people say my last name correctly, which 520 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: is it's not Shankar, it's schunker Um, and like really 521 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: making that a point to big ways, which is, you know, 522 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: feeling so deeply connected to my roots and my ancestry 523 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: and where I come from. So that it but it 524 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: took time. And like any kid I was, I was 525 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: so eager to assimilate and so eager to just be 526 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: like all the other kids at school that I just 527 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: didn't Yeah, I just didn't value it in the way 528 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: that I wish I had. Mm hmm. But every kid, 529 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: in many ways feels mothered in some way or another. 530 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: Like I wonder, Sophie, if you had experiences as a 531 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: kid where you're just so eager to be like others 532 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: that if there was something that made you different or 533 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: distinct and you kind of wish you had embraced it 534 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: at that moment in time. Yeah, absolutely, And and it 535 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: is really interesting. I'll never forget, uh, talking about, you know, 536 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: some of the war wounds I carry from my childhood. 537 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: And I was always such a sensitive kid, and that 538 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: sensitivity was often weaponized against me. And I think we're 539 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: now having larger conversations about what it means to weaponize 540 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: sensitivity and why it's deeply toxic, and that when you 541 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: are sensitive to other people's feelings, when you see a 542 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: broken world and your reaction is to be heartbroken, it 543 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: really does mean you're in tune. And uh, and yeah, gosh, 544 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: I'll never forget a couple of months ago discussing, you know, 545 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that was really hard um as 546 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: a kid, especially dealing with a sort of you know, 547 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: classic nineties mean girls mentality in my high school and 548 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: really feeling sort of suspended between all these different worlds 549 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: within that world. Um, and my coach I just said, well, 550 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: you gotta get over it. You know, you starting to 551 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: get all these roles in plays and this happening to you, 552 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: and this happening to you. Yeah, kids were jealous of you, 553 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: That's why they were mean to you. And the dissonance 554 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: I felt in her kind of calling me out and 555 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: being like, you got to grow up about it. It 556 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 1: was really hard because I my response to her was, 557 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: but I have always felt less than I have always 558 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: felt so scared. I've always felt like I was, you know, 559 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: a step from failing. And she said, yeah, it doesn't matter, 560 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: it's not how other people perceive you. And and the 561 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: sort of difference of you know, being a kid who 562 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: I always kind of felt like the man out. There's 563 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: an interesting moment I find myself in as an adult, 564 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: having to come to a sort of cognitive reckoning with 565 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 1: regardless of how I feel, how do other people experience me? 566 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: And how do I then hold space for both realities 567 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: and when they're very dissonant, what does that look like? 568 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: And you know, similarly to you, you you might have 569 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: had days where you didn't realize that, you know, being 570 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: the protege of the greatest violent the greatest living violenist, 571 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: might have made you a target for bullying. You felt 572 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: like you were broken, and I didn't take into account 573 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: you know that I got a huge leadership role my 574 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: senior year in high school that was deeply competitive in 575 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: my community, and that that made me a target. I 576 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,959 Speaker 1: just thought everyone hated me, And so it's a very 577 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: it's just so interesting the things we go through. Yeah, 578 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: you don't. You don't realize it at the time, but 579 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: looking back, it's always easier to sort of see the 580 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: dynamics you're common about weaponizing sensitivity. Was so poignant, and 581 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: it reminds me of a conversation I had recently with 582 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 1: a black transman named Morgan Givens, and he talks about 583 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: the fact that he was assigned female at birth and 584 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: then he went through hormone therapy to align his body 585 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: with his true gender identity, which is male, and that 586 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: after this transition he was starting to grapple with masculinity 587 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: and what that really means. And he said, you know, 588 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm a really sensitive guy and sometimes I feel, you know, well, 589 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: his story is very complicated in the sense that he um, 590 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: he's a black transman and he was confronted with the 591 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: harsh reality of being a black man in society when 592 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: he was pulled over by the cops and had subsequent 593 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: engagements with the cops, and he ended up joining the 594 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: police force, which in many places can be like the 595 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: ultimate machismo macho vibe, like, you know, toxic masculinity, what 596 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: have you. And it was so interesting for him to 597 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: say that in many ways he had to dismantle his 598 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: perception of what gender identity meant, because he said, I 599 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 1: wasn't willing to lose so much of myself, like I 600 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: am sensitive, I am emotional, um and sometimes he said 601 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: in his particular experience that, you know, being in the force, 602 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: it was as though he was being told he shouldn't 603 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: feel things, you know, he shouldn't respond emotionally to things. 604 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: And so anyway, I just found that to be such 605 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: a fascinating, thought provoking conversation around how we think about 606 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: our identities and how multifaceted they could be, and how 607 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: many many different traits can exist within us that we 608 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: just learn over time to embrace. I think about I 609 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: interviewed my friend um Karamo Brown on the show last year, 610 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: and he was talking about how he really got ruthlessly 611 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: made fun of, you know, for bringing cultural food to school. 612 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: Kids would make fun of him when his mom would 613 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: make curry go and similarly to what you said, you know, 614 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: when your mom was making this incredible Indian food, You're like, 615 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: why did I want, you know, pizza, gross slice of 616 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: pepperoni pizza? Why? But as a child, you just want 617 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: what everybody else is doing. You know, you want to 618 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: have it, you want to be it, you want it 619 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: to be smooth. Um, And I'm curious, does your deep 620 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: knowledge of cognitive behavior does it help you release some 621 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 1: of your own childhood? You know, war wounds is the 622 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: term I always use, But some of some of that hurt? 623 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: Are you able to kind of transmute you know, your 624 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: inner child who had a wound? Because of what you 625 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: understand about the brain, do you think it makes it 626 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: easier to you know, quote unquote do the work. Absolutely. 627 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I think when you learn more about the 628 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: human mind and you learn about all the various forces 629 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: that can lead us to develop the belief that we have. 630 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: I mean, it can build empathy in one sense because 631 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: you understand why, but it can also build than in 632 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,720 Speaker 1: patience in another sense, which is, okay, we understand why, 633 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: but we also do have research showing how we can 634 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: effectively change not just other people's minds but our own. 635 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: And so I think I do feel a great sense 636 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: of urgency because the state of affairs when it comes 637 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: to racial and equity, gender, um, inequity, you name it 638 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: is so severe. Um, I do feel like, oh my gosh, 639 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: let's just get the research out there, Like, I just 640 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: want everyone to understand what is involved in changing our 641 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: own minds, because I really do believe that we all 642 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: would benefit so much, not just from focusing on how 643 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: to change other people's minds, that how to change our 644 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: own minds, and if we can all look inwards and 645 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: engage in that kind of work, society would be so 646 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: much better off. So when you talk about that, it's 647 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: funny because my immediate instinct is to say, Okay, well 648 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: what does it look like? Will you give us a curriculum? 649 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: Where do we begin? I want a full semester, I 650 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: want I want to take the course. But and that 651 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: that is true, I was about to say, all kidding aside, 652 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm actually not kidding. But you know, that's 653 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: that's a that's a large thing for a lot of 654 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: people to theoretically sign up for. So where would you 655 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: tell people to begin? Because I know there are other 656 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: people listening right now who are having that same light 657 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: up experience that I am going, Okay, where do we 658 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: start and how do we change our minds? And and 659 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: and to what benefit? So where do you point people, 660 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: as you know, a starting line for learning how to 661 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: change and better their own minds. Yeah, I think. Um, 662 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: there are two experts on change that I had on 663 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans this past season, and we 664 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: do a deep dive on some of these strategies, like 665 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: if your listeners want to just get like the one 666 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: on one in thirty minutes, you know. I talked with 667 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: Katie Milton and Adam Grant, who are both professors of psychology, 668 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: and Katie Miltman's book is called How We Change and 669 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: Adam's Grant's book is called Think Again, and I think 670 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: they both articulate in this really beautiful way, um, strategies 671 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: that we can implement within our own lives to try 672 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: and reach our long term goals and become better people, 673 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: as well as ways that we can revisit our opinions 674 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: and our values and beliefs ever so often to make 675 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: sure that we are valuing this idea of changing our 676 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: minds right rather than being embarrassed and feeling pride and 677 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 1: shame and having been wrong, actually making it a pride 678 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: point to change one's mind. And it's funny. I mean 679 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: I use some of these strategies and in my day 680 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: to day life, like my husband and I he's a 681 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: computer scientist, but he's also a behavioral scientist, in part 682 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 1: because he's married to me, so he knows he knows 683 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: all the research, Sophia. But we know how hard it 684 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: can be to change one's mind, um, and we know 685 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: how many barriers psychological barriers there are in the way 686 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 1: of admitting that we want to change our minds. Some 687 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: of those forces are the fact that we attach our 688 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: sense of self and our self worth and our identity 689 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,799 Speaker 1: to our values. So when we admit that we're wrong 690 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: about something, it can threaten our sense of self, which 691 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: can be hard, and then you know, pride can get 692 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: in the way. We just hate admitting we're wrong because 693 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: there's some element of say, embarrassment or or shame. But 694 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: because of that, you really try to incentivize one another 695 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: you to admit that they're wrong. So like when one 696 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: of us says, oh, yeah, you're making me think differently 697 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: about this. I think I might be wrong about that, 698 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: we like enthusiastically pat each other on the back and 699 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: are like, that's so awesome that you're willing to change 700 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: your mind, Like that's something I really value, and I 701 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: value so much about you that you don't let pride 702 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: get in the way and that you are willing to 703 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: say and admit when you're wrong. Um. And I think 704 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: even those small changes in the way that you structure, 705 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: like you not to get two technical, but like incentive 706 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: systems within your life, so that you start to value 707 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, I think that can make a 708 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: huge difference. I mean it's certainly, you know, within our 709 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: our marriage, it makes a huge difference to create this 710 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: really safe not not even just a safe space for 711 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: admitting we're wrong, but actually it's a pride point to 712 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: admit that you're wrong. I love that, and I'm curious. 713 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 1: I can't help but think as you're talking about all 714 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,919 Speaker 1: of this, about the moment you and I find each 715 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: other in the global moments certainly, but but really in particular, 716 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: what's happening here where we live with such dangerous ideology 717 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: around political identity and the kinds that we're seeing, in 718 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: particular with um obvious lies about science, public health really weaponized, 719 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: especially on the right. You've seen vaccinated television hosts telling 720 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: their audiences not to get vaccinated because it's a it's 721 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: an identity thing, which is simply not true. But they've 722 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: weaponized public health to a point where it now falls 723 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: under that sort of umbrella which you're referencing, which is 724 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: if I, if I admit that I was wrong about this, 725 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: it'll it'll dismantle my entire identity. And we're seeing unvaccinated 726 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: populations largely exist by political lines, and we're seeing people 727 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: currently dying of COVID are unvaccinated, and it's terrifying. And 728 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: I'm very surprised by some of the response I get 729 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: when I advocate around vaccine science. People are just so 730 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,719 Speaker 1: they are so entrenched and in sharing, you know, personal 731 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: stories again because I believe they create empathy. You know, 732 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: a doctor speaking about how they've had multiple patients in 733 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: the last two weeks literally dying in the ICU begging 734 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: for a vaccine, and the doctors saying, I'm so sorry, 735 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: it's too late. It won't do anything for you now. 736 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: And someone messaged me saying, you know, you really shouldn't 737 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,359 Speaker 1: guilt people like this, and I thought, oh, if if 738 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: you are feeling sad, heartbroken for these people, that isn't 739 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: my trying to guilt you. That's your authentic response to 740 00:41:55,480 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: unnecessary death. That's the right response. That's sensitivity. But because 741 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: of an ideology you're looking to blame that feeling on 742 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: someone else. And I'm very curious how for this issue 743 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: we see, How do you think we get over this? 744 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: How do you think behavioral science can teach us to 745 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: encourage people past the paid nuisance that they're watching on 746 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: the news, which isn't being you know, accurately represented very 747 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: often as a propaganda campaigns um from the Murdochs, but 748 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: in fact is harming communities. How do we get people 749 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: over that notion that that that's somehow tied to their identity? Yeah, 750 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: I mean the first the first answer I have is 751 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: we don't know the full story. UM. Getting people to 752 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,760 Speaker 1: change their minds is one of the most intractable parts 753 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: of my field. It can be easier to change people's 754 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: behaviors and extremely hard to get people to change their minds. 755 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: So we do have techniques we can use, UM, but 756 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 1: it is I think if we were to ever crack 757 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: that nut, it would just be a game changer. Just 758 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: we're far away. UM. So we have early ideas, we 759 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: have techniques that we can use. Some of those are 760 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: hard to use at scale, especially when they require one 761 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: on one engagement. UM, But there are some and I 762 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: do want to share one burgeoning, one growing body of 763 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: research that I'm very excited about, and it's called moral reframing, 764 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: and it refers to the fact that it's very hard 765 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,360 Speaker 1: for people to change their values, especially change their values overnight, 766 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: and so the most effective way of convincing people of 767 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: something new is to hold their values fixed, affirm their values, 768 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: but change the framing of the message so that it 769 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: reaches the goals that you have in mind, but it 770 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: aligns with that person's value system. So to put this 771 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: in concrete terms, let's say you're trying to advocate for 772 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: climate change. Right. With the liberal you might talk about 773 00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,439 Speaker 1: the fact that investing in climate change reform can lift 774 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: up the disadvantage among us right and help bring about 775 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: more social equality. For conservative, you might focus on the 776 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: fact that investing in climate change reform can be a 777 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: nice way of preserving our natural our nation's beauty, our 778 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: natural beauty, that it's patriotic to care about the environment, 779 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: that investing in the environment can help inspire job growth 780 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: and you know, boost the economy. So in both cases, 781 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 1: your end goal is the same, which is to try 782 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: to get people to care about climate change. Probably the 783 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 1: most important one of the most important issues of our time. 784 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: But you're not threatening their entire value system. You're holding 785 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: their value system is fixed, and you're trying to find 786 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: ways to frame messages in ways that affirm rather than 787 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: threaten that value system. And research is showing that it 788 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: can be a very powerful mechanism to get people out 789 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: of their very fixed mindset and to think, oh wait, 790 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 1: actually believing in climate change can actually be consonant with 791 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: my value system doesn't need to breede the kind of 792 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: cognitive dissonance that it would otherwise breed. And I think 793 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,560 Speaker 1: that it's a nice antidote around the fact that we 794 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: do so strongly attach our values to our our identities. 795 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that's going to go anywhere. I think 796 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: that is such a foundational part of human nature and 797 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: our psychology that to try to overhaul that part of 798 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,399 Speaker 1: our psychology might be too much to fight, too much 799 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,280 Speaker 1: to take on um. But if we can work around 800 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,799 Speaker 1: it with these you know, framing changes, that can be 801 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: a potentially powerful antidote. And it is. It strikes me 802 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: that it is a place where so many people, to 803 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 1: your point about whatever their value systems or or perceived 804 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: identities are, can find universal truths. You know, when you 805 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 1: talk about advocacy, um, like Darryl Davis working on dismantling 806 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: white supremacy, we would we would typically place that into 807 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: the more sort of left bucket on the political spectrum. 808 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: But then you also did so much work actually uh 809 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: with the White House Social and Behavioral Sciences Team on 810 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,800 Speaker 1: veterans issues, which so many people, I would imagine anyway, 811 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: would would place in a more quote right political bucket, 812 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: even though folks who make up veterans and you know, 813 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,480 Speaker 1: service members and people who work you know, all the 814 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: way up to the White House are of every kind 815 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:27,120 Speaker 1: of ideology and belief system. And I wonder about how 816 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: when we get beyond those perhaps obvious or assumed ideologies, 817 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,880 Speaker 1: and then we get into things like, um, what you 818 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: spoke about with Morgan on doing notions of masculinity. There's 819 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: so much you know, masculinity and aggressiveness tied up in 820 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,440 Speaker 1: the notion of military. How did you, well, first, how 821 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 1: did you end up in that position? Because I'm fascinating 822 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: how do you go from you know, playing the violin 823 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: at Juilliard to Yale to being a Rhodes scholar to 824 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,359 Speaker 1: winding up with the White House Uh, I'm wondering then, how, 825 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 1: as the woman that you are, do you approach such 826 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: deeply entrenched notions of identity and masculinity and and toughness 827 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: working on veterans issues, which means you are serving and 828 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: helping people who have largely believed that they don't they 829 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,879 Speaker 1: don't need anybody's help. Yeah, So the White House job 830 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: definitely again was not on my calf. I didn't expect it. 831 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: Um So at the time, Sophia I was, I was 832 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: doing my post doc. So I just finished my PhD 833 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: in England, came to California to do my post doc. 834 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,799 Speaker 1: It was incognitive neuroscience, and I just distinctly remember I 835 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: was in the basement of a FM Mori laboratory, so 836 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 1: basically just doing brain scans, trying to see how people's 837 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: brains work. And it was probably my fourth hour of 838 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:49,399 Speaker 1: doing these scans. I was in a windowless baseman and 839 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: this guy comes in for his brain scan and within 840 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: moments and peering into his brain on this screen, I 841 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: remember thinking, given my personality, I feel like the order 842 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: of opera rations is off here, Like I'm a really 843 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: social person. I don't know anything about this guy. I 844 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: don't know whether he has kids, but his face for 845 00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: ice cream flavor is what motivates him in life. So 846 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: the really science technical stuff might be for some people, 847 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,719 Speaker 1: but it wasn't for me. And I kind of knew 848 00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: in that moment, Okay, I need to be in a 849 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: more social environment where I'm getting to know people and 850 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: working on teams and whatnot. But I had no idea 851 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: what could come next. I like, what is the post 852 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 1: stock and cognitive neuroscience do other than become a professor 853 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,319 Speaker 1: or a researcher. So I was really lost, and I 854 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: called it my old undergraduate advisor and she told me, my, 855 00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,359 Speaker 1: there's some amazing work happening in the federal government right 856 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,640 Speaker 1: now where they're using insights from our field to get 857 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 1: more lunches to kids who can't afford lunch at school 858 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,120 Speaker 1: every day. So basically what was happening was the government 859 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,839 Speaker 1: was offering um a school lunch program at a free 860 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: or reduced price for for low income kids, but millions 861 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: of kids were still going hungry every single day at 862 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 1: school despite the fact this program was off heard. And 863 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: so they did a behavioral audit of the program and 864 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,319 Speaker 1: they find out found out that there are at least 865 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 1: two factors behind this. The first is that the form 866 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,280 Speaker 1: was extremely burdensome to fill out. It required referencing multiple 867 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: tax documents, find a way to get this form back 868 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: to the government at very specific moment in time, and 869 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: if there were if you filled out the information correctly, 870 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,319 Speaker 1: there would be penalties. And think about it. I mean, 871 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,439 Speaker 1: imagine a single mom who's working three, you know, three 872 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: jobs to make ends meet, and you're demanding this of 873 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,719 Speaker 1: her um and it can be really challenging to make 874 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: sure that everything gets done in time and is filled 875 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 1: out correctly. So that was one barrier was just how 876 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: burdensome the form was. And the other barrier was that 877 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,879 Speaker 1: parents felt a lot of stigma around and rolling their 878 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: kids into a public benefits program. Like when I was 879 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,440 Speaker 1: in the White House, I talked to principles who would say, 880 00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: these parents worked really hard for a living, and the 881 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: idea of having their kids depend on the government was 882 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:56,600 Speaker 1: it was really demoralizing for families. So they didn't want 883 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,880 Speaker 1: to do that. So what the government did is that 884 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: they changed the program them from an opt in program 885 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,280 Speaker 1: to an opt out program such that all eligible kids 886 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,320 Speaker 1: were now automatically enrolled in the program, and parents would 887 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,280 Speaker 1: only need to take an active step that they wanted 888 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: to unenroll their kids in the program. And we know 889 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: that this default setting can play a massive role in 890 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,759 Speaker 1: other policy areas, like when you automatically enroll employees into 891 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: your retirement savings plans, right like great skyrocket from let's say, 892 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: um So, it's so beautiful and elegant to see this 893 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 1: used in the area of children's health and well being 894 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,480 Speaker 1: in their ability to prosper in school. And as a 895 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: result of this change, twelve and a half million more 896 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,600 Speaker 1: kids are now eating lunch at school every day. That's amazing. 897 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,320 Speaker 1: I remember thinking that's what I want to be doing. 898 00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: I want to be helping to translate insights from my 899 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: field into public policy improvements. But there was no job 900 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,320 Speaker 1: out there. So I ended up sending a cold email 901 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,759 Speaker 1: to a former Obama advisor, Cass Sunstein, and he had 902 00:50:57,800 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 1: written books on the topic. He for in this book Nudge, 903 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,759 Speaker 1: which I also recommend to the readers that they want 904 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,880 Speaker 1: to equate themselves with behavioral science. He'd work for Obama 905 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,880 Speaker 1: and he connected me with the President Science advisor, and 906 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,239 Speaker 1: a few days later I was interviewing for this new job. 907 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,640 Speaker 1: Um and trying to convince them to hire a dedicated 908 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,440 Speaker 1: behavioral scientist to work in the White House. It's fascinating 909 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: because the differences that are possible with just shifts in 910 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 1: to your point, how we file paperwork, or how we 911 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,840 Speaker 1: ask questions, or how we explain things. I am. I 912 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,520 Speaker 1: had the privilege, the honor really of testifying before Congress 913 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 1: a few weeks ago, and I was listening to an 914 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: economic expert analyzing the incentives around overcoming vaccine hesitancy. And 915 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,920 Speaker 1: one of the things they've found the most effective is 916 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 1: to remind people now that they can get a shot, 917 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: but that there is a shot reserved for each and 918 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: every one of us. It's waiting for you, it's yours. 919 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,080 Speaker 1: Has has been such an empowering piece of information for 920 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: people to under stand, oh, oh right, we do have 921 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 1: the immense privilege of living in a country that has 922 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,040 Speaker 1: provided enough vaccines for each and every one of us. 923 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,319 Speaker 1: There is a vaccine waiting for me, for you. I love, 924 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: and it's yeah, it's it's it's a mental shift, you know, 925 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: it's it's a linguistic shift, but it does create a 926 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: sense of empowerment, and you know, and every day person 927 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,839 Speaker 1: trying to protect themselves. Yeah. I love this research. It's 928 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,880 Speaker 1: actually done by my friend Katie Milkman, who I was 929 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,800 Speaker 1: mentioning earlier. It's incredible research and it aligns very closely 930 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,400 Speaker 1: with a study that we ran in government involving veterans. 931 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: So we are trying to get them to sign up 932 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:42,759 Speaker 1: for an employment and educational counseling program upon returning from 933 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 1: their years overseas. And the reason why this is what 934 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: you were doing at the White House. At the White 935 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,839 Speaker 1: House exactly. Yeah, I just want to get my timeline right, Yeah, yeah, 936 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,719 Speaker 1: absolutely so. So it's so important to help facilitate the 937 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: transition from military to civilian life because it can be 938 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,720 Speaker 1: one that is fraught with lots of of challenges and 939 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: folks might be dealing with PTSD like the The military 940 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: experience is so profoundly hard, and it's important that we 941 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,800 Speaker 1: as a society protect and support veterans as they transition 942 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,840 Speaker 1: back to civilian life. So again, if this is an 943 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,719 Speaker 1: example of people not taking advantage of this program, in 944 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,480 Speaker 1: large part because I think as government we were not 945 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,799 Speaker 1: doing good enough job marketing the program and getting it 946 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,440 Speaker 1: out to folks. So I remember we were working with 947 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our budget was limited. They 948 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: told us, you can only work with this one email 949 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:35,359 Speaker 1: that we're going to be setting out to that's about 950 00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:38,320 Speaker 1: the program. And to your point, you know, then what 951 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,160 Speaker 1: is the space for working in linguistics? Right, It's all 952 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,000 Speaker 1: about framing the message. And we changed just one word 953 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,040 Speaker 1: in the message, Sophia. So instead of telling that's that 954 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,440 Speaker 1: they were eligible for the program, we simply reminded them 955 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: that they had earned it through their years of service. 956 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: So if you think about the vaccine study, right, there's 957 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: a vaccine reserve for you. It's like, hey, veterans, there's 958 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,839 Speaker 1: this educational employment of fit that's reserved for you. UM. 959 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: It's really tapping into the same psychology, which UM is 960 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 1: called the endowment effect. That's the principle, and it refers 961 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,839 Speaker 1: to the fact that we value things more when we 962 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 1: own them or have earned them, because now we have 963 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,799 Speaker 1: something to loose, right, it's something that we we own, 964 00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,759 Speaker 1: it's it's in our possession and we don't want to 965 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,279 Speaker 1: forego the opportunity of taking advantage of it. And so 966 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,600 Speaker 1: that one word change led to a nine percent increase 967 00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:29,480 Speaker 1: in access to the Veterans Program, which was an incredible 968 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,719 Speaker 1: example of how even just small tweaks in the way 969 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,040 Speaker 1: that we frame something can have really outside impacts on behavior. 970 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,560 Speaker 1: That is so, so very cool. So working on that 971 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,960 Speaker 1: with the Department of Veterans Affairs and and under the 972 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,719 Speaker 1: White House, was there a shift in your ability to 973 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: do that work when the administration changed? I I've heard 974 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,200 Speaker 1: so much about great programs that were underway. I mean 975 00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:00,759 Speaker 1: even a national Oregon database for organ donation and transplants 976 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:07,280 Speaker 1: that that was derailed, you know, in and I'm curious, 977 00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:12,480 Speaker 1: what what's become of this wonderful veterans program. Yeah. So 978 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: I was fortunate in that I had a boss who 979 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: had worked for Clinton for eight years, left for Bush, 980 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: and then come back for Obama. And what he shared 981 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,919 Speaker 1: with me is that they had done so much work 982 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:27,520 Speaker 1: in the Clinton administration. And the metaphor he used was 983 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,120 Speaker 1: that it was as though they had built this elaborate 984 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,040 Speaker 1: standcastle at the beach and then one wave came and 985 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:38,400 Speaker 1: like the whole thing crashed over, crushed um. And his 986 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,240 Speaker 1: lesson from that experience to me was, when you're building 987 00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,279 Speaker 1: out things like a behavioral science team, don't build them 988 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 1: in the White House. Build them in parts of the 989 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: government that are resistant to political leadership changes, that are 990 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,319 Speaker 1: resistant to partisan preferences, but that can exist just as 991 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,200 Speaker 1: a stable part of doing good government. UM. And so 992 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,400 Speaker 1: this led me to actually create the team in a 993 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:08,399 Speaker 1: very bipartisan part of government called the General Services Administration. 994 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,399 Speaker 1: And it's pretty insensitive to the whims of the White House, 995 00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:15,319 Speaker 1: right They just continue to do solid work to help 996 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:20,360 Speaker 1: improve the experience of student loan borrowers and formerly you know, 997 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,280 Speaker 1: people who have formerly been in prison who are leaving, 998 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:27,560 Speaker 1: or veterans or military service members, are low income students, 999 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,480 Speaker 1: or women who have just gone through pregnancy, whatever it is, 1000 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,600 Speaker 1: whatever the population, this group dedicates themselves to just improving 1001 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:39,279 Speaker 1: good government practice. And so the White House part of 1002 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:43,200 Speaker 1: the team I disbanded when I left UM, but the part, 1003 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: the real heart of the team, was based in this 1004 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,800 Speaker 1: agency and they continue to do incredible work during the 1005 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: previous administration, like helping on the opiate epidemic, helping on 1006 00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:59,799 Speaker 1: wildfire relief areas that all Americans can get behind, you know. 1007 00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 1: And that was a great lesson to me that at 1008 00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:05,879 Speaker 1: the end of the day, I mean, I've always seen 1009 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,080 Speaker 1: behavioral science as being a very nonpartisan thing, right, it's 1010 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,520 Speaker 1: just about how do we make sure that our policies 1011 00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:15,799 Speaker 1: and programs reflect our best understanding of human behavior. And 1012 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 1: it was so critical that we make sure that this 1013 00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 1: part of government fell into place where you can't challenge 1014 00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,280 Speaker 1: the importance of making sure that we're building out a 1015 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 1: programmer policy. We need to take that population we're serving 1016 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,520 Speaker 1: into consideration to make sure that it is really reaching 1017 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: its goals and maximizing the positive impact it has on 1018 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: the population it's it's seeking to serve. That's so great, 1019 00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 1: and that's what I think we should hope for in general. 1020 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,880 Speaker 1: You know, we're not supposed to be playing this eye 1021 00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 1: for an eye partisan game, and the upper echelons of 1022 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,920 Speaker 1: our government really anywhere in our government. But you know, 1023 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:59,680 Speaker 1: the notion that the administration was just nuking incredible government 1024 00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,280 Speaker 1: pro rams to kind of get back at the you know, 1025 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,480 Speaker 1: at President Obama was so hard to watch and and 1026 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: I think I hope, my hope for us is that 1027 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,560 Speaker 1: we can also, regardless of you know, where we come 1028 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,880 Speaker 1: from or what we might believe or what our ideologies are, 1029 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 1: understand the danger of that. I mean, the fact that 1030 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,400 Speaker 1: Trump disbanded the Pandemic Response Network as it was as 1031 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,600 Speaker 1: a gotcha, and look at what happened. You know, it's 1032 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:33,120 Speaker 1: it's a it's a frightening time. And what strikes me 1033 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,160 Speaker 1: in the beauty of what you all did and establishing 1034 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: this program and making it able to withstand any kind 1035 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:45,120 Speaker 1: of see change, is that that I believe could actually 1036 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:50,200 Speaker 1: help with our behavioral identities and our social identities. If 1037 00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: we could really rest confidently in the truth that there 1038 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 1: are these departments in our government that are taking care 1039 00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,960 Speaker 1: of us no matter what I think, we could actually 1040 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,720 Speaker 1: um calm some of the mania down, which would be 1041 00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,000 Speaker 1: beautiful and and and so it makes me curious how 1042 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:14,280 Speaker 1: you think in that theme, behavioral science and social science 1043 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:19,400 Speaker 1: can play into issues like public programs and and really 1044 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:21,720 Speaker 1: even into the economy. You know, I think it can 1045 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,360 Speaker 1: be so tragic when the government builds out a policy 1046 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,240 Speaker 1: or a program and it is so well designed, it's 1047 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,959 Speaker 1: such a useful program, like for example, with the school 1048 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,920 Speaker 1: lunch program. Right, the meals were nutritious, they are being 1049 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,080 Speaker 1: offered at school, they were available. But then we don't 1050 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: get that last mile problem, correct, right, we we forget 1051 00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: that there are barriers to accessing the program that are 1052 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:47,040 Speaker 1: really the kind of profound implications on participation rates, or 1053 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: that there's a certain psychology held by the person or 1054 00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,080 Speaker 1: people that were trying to um have take advantage of 1055 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,000 Speaker 1: the program. And when we miss that part, it can 1056 00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:57,919 Speaker 1: mean that all of our efforts up until that point 1057 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,600 Speaker 1: where we're not because we're just not getting over that 1058 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: finish line and making sure that the program's eligibility or 1059 01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 1: the requirements for enrolling or what have you, or the 1060 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,120 Speaker 1: way the choices are structured or the way that incentives 1061 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:15,680 Speaker 1: are structured aligns with the science of human behavior and 1062 01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:17,920 Speaker 1: what motivates us and what drives us and what conserve 1063 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: as an antagonist for us. And so I just think 1064 01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,600 Speaker 1: considering the full range of psychological factors that might be 1065 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 1: at play when someone is thinking about engaging with the 1066 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,400 Speaker 1: government in a certain way is such a crucial piece 1067 01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:37,080 Speaker 1: of the puzzle. Mm hmm. I love that was was 1068 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:42,959 Speaker 1: that understanding? Uh? What led you to work with Pete 1069 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,880 Speaker 1: buddhach Edge on his debate prep team. I'm so curious. 1070 01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:49,760 Speaker 1: How did you get that call? Do you think that 1071 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,760 Speaker 1: was I made that call? Oh my gosh, I'm like 1072 01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:57,560 Speaker 1: the Queen of I'm the Queen of the cold Cold. 1073 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:01,040 Speaker 1: It's very Yeah, so I should probably also mentioned that 1074 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: when I was the young kids, I mentioned how I 1075 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: auditioned for Juilliard, and just give you a quick backstory 1076 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,320 Speaker 1: and how that happened, because it's very relevant to the 1077 01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,920 Speaker 1: approach I've used since. Um. So, my parents had no 1078 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,880 Speaker 1: exposure to the classical music world. Um. My dad's a 1079 01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,080 Speaker 1: theoretical physicist. My mom helps immigrants get green cards to 1080 01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,600 Speaker 1: study in this country. So when I developed a huge 1081 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,160 Speaker 1: love of the violin, um, they didn't know what to do. Like, 1082 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,280 Speaker 1: they had no exposure to Western classical music. So my 1083 01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,320 Speaker 1: mom knew that my dreams were really big. She knew 1084 01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,520 Speaker 1: that I aspired to audition for Juilliard, but we had 1085 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:32,080 Speaker 1: no connections with that world. So one day we were 1086 01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,040 Speaker 1: in New York to his mother daughter trip. We're walking 1087 01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,040 Speaker 1: by the Juilliard building and my mom goes, why don't 1088 01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,840 Speaker 1: we just go in and see what happens. It's like, quitin, 1089 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: just go in, that's crazy. She's like, let's just go 1090 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:44,080 Speaker 1: in and see what happens. You've got your violin with you, 1091 01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we can find something out of this experience. 1092 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,480 Speaker 1: So wow, we walk into the Juilliard building unannounced, uninvited. 1093 01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,000 Speaker 1: My mom strikes up a conversation with a woman and 1094 01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,000 Speaker 1: the elevator and her daughter and says, hey, when you 1095 01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 1: guys are done with your lesson with this teacher, would 1096 01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:00,400 Speaker 1: you mind if Maya just played for that teacher for 1097 01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:01,800 Speaker 1: just a few minutes. Would you be willing to just 1098 01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,320 Speaker 1: make an introduction? And they said yes, And it was 1099 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,080 Speaker 1: a lesson to me that sometimes when you just ask, 1100 01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:09,680 Speaker 1: you'll get a yes in return. And so they made 1101 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: the intro. I auditioned for this teacher. He took me 1102 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,960 Speaker 1: on as a summer student. And it is only because 1103 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 1: of that summer boot camp that I experienced that I 1104 01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:19,520 Speaker 1: even had a chance of getting into Juilliard in the fall. 1105 01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,320 Speaker 1: So she taught me, like, you know, in this case, 1106 01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't even it wasn't a cold. Calls like a cold, 1107 01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, walk into the building. And so I've been 1108 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: using that ever since. So I as you know, I 1109 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,680 Speaker 1: called emailed a former White House official to try to 1110 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:35,440 Speaker 1: get the Obama gig, and then with Pete, I just 1111 01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,440 Speaker 1: sent him an email and I was like, hey, you know, 1112 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,800 Speaker 1: I worked in the Obama White House. One thing I've 1113 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,400 Speaker 1: learned is that it's important to make sure behavioral science 1114 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,600 Speaker 1: informs policy and programs, But what's extra important is making 1115 01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:52,280 Speaker 1: sure that behavioral science informs how we tell stories around 1116 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,040 Speaker 1: policy and politics, and that we use it to inform 1117 01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,760 Speaker 1: the narratives that we build the way that we communicate 1118 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,280 Speaker 1: about public policy. Goal is because so much can get 1119 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,680 Speaker 1: lost in translation. Um, And at the end of the day, 1120 01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 1: language is the inspirational tool that we have to get 1121 01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:11,439 Speaker 1: people excited about policy reform and help bridge divide. So 1122 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,920 Speaker 1: I remember when I emailed him asking to, you know, 1123 01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,800 Speaker 1: volunteer to help his campaign. It wasn't on policy that 1124 01:03:18,840 --> 01:03:20,280 Speaker 1: I was eager to help, even though that was where 1125 01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,160 Speaker 1: I've been coming from in the Obama White House. It 1126 01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 1: was to help on messaging, to make sure that the 1127 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,280 Speaker 1: right stories were getting in the hands of voters, to 1128 01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:30,360 Speaker 1: make sure that we were framing our policy objectives and 1129 01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,680 Speaker 1: ways that aligned hopefully with people's long term goals for 1130 01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,320 Speaker 1: themselves and their families. And so yeah, I just sent 1131 01:03:37,400 --> 01:03:39,520 Speaker 1: him an email and was like, hey, um, would you 1132 01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:42,360 Speaker 1: be interested in working with me? And he wrote back 1133 01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,600 Speaker 1: and said yeah, And I ended up being a part 1134 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,200 Speaker 1: of his debate preparation team. So I slew all over 1135 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,720 Speaker 1: the country and helped him prepare for every single debate 1136 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,520 Speaker 1: leading up to his win in Iowa, And it was 1137 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,800 Speaker 1: incredible experience to learn from the other many former Obama 1138 01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:00,439 Speaker 1: debate coach veterans on the team. So I just felt 1139 01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 1: like I was a student, you know, watching the great 1140 01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, do this coaching, and like I was in 1141 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,120 Speaker 1: this masterclass. But it was an incredibly illuminating experience to 1142 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,960 Speaker 1: have that behind the scenes look at how a candidate 1143 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,400 Speaker 1: builds themselves over time. I never worked on a campaign before, 1144 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,240 Speaker 1: and I just learned. Yeah, I learned so much from 1145 01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:22,640 Speaker 1: from the experience. Do you think there are strategies that 1146 01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 1: we as voters might be able to learn from the 1147 01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,360 Speaker 1: folks who are out there campaigning Things we should look for, 1148 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,360 Speaker 1: things we should listen for. How we can really listen 1149 01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,680 Speaker 1: for the things that are most important, because it's easy 1150 01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,040 Speaker 1: to get swayed by a slogan or we've seen to 1151 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:45,000 Speaker 1: to drum up tension. But as we both discussed earlier, 1152 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,000 Speaker 1: climate for example, should be our number one priority. If 1153 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,320 Speaker 1: we don't have a planet to live on, none of 1154 01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:51,320 Speaker 1: the other stuff we argue about is ever gonna matter. 1155 01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:57,120 Speaker 1: So how can we as the voting body better engage 1156 01:04:57,160 --> 01:05:00,360 Speaker 1: with the messaging we're hearing. Yeah, it's a great question. 1157 01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,560 Speaker 1: I don't think the responsibility should fall on voters. I 1158 01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,240 Speaker 1: put the response to ability entirely on the people who 1159 01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,960 Speaker 1: are running for office to build a really compelling argument 1160 01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,680 Speaker 1: for why it is that they're running for the position 1161 01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: and what they can offer. Like Elizabeth Warren was on 1162 01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: point or regarding her argument for why she was running 1163 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,160 Speaker 1: her office, And I think it's up to it's up 1164 01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: to the politician to take very complex policies that don't 1165 01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,880 Speaker 1: have you know, it's not it's not easy to unpack 1166 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,800 Speaker 1: decisions around pipelines and whatnot, you know, in a few sentences. 1167 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:36,920 Speaker 1: But I think it is the job of the politician 1168 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:43,000 Speaker 1: to distill really complex concepts into language that feels accessible 1169 01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,200 Speaker 1: and relatable and relevant to our day to day lives. 1170 01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,040 Speaker 1: Um so that voters feel the poll to go to 1171 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,960 Speaker 1: the ballot box and cast their votes. So I think 1172 01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,520 Speaker 1: that is Yeah, I think that is the responsibility of 1173 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,720 Speaker 1: the politician to make sure that politics feels like it 1174 01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,400 Speaker 1: is a part of our everyday lives and it has consequences, 1175 01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:04,280 Speaker 1: and to make sure that we understand topics that are 1176 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,560 Speaker 1: otherwise extremely complex. Like I was behind the scenes, and 1177 01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:08,680 Speaker 1: I was like having to brief myself, like, wait a second, 1178 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,880 Speaker 1: what exactly are the implications of this policy? This is 1179 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,400 Speaker 1: way more complex than I ever thought. Um, so I 1180 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,720 Speaker 1: think that burden falls on again the politicians. But I 1181 01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,680 Speaker 1: will say one thing which is working in the Obama 1182 01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:24,480 Speaker 1: White House gave me an appreciation for just how complex 1183 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,360 Speaker 1: any given policy is, and that it is No decision 1184 01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,280 Speaker 1: is easy, right, it's fair. I think it's easy for 1185 01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:33,120 Speaker 1: us to hear the top line messaging and be like Obama, 1186 01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:34,760 Speaker 1: of course it should have been X or Y. But 1187 01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,360 Speaker 1: Obama is considering the hundreds of you know, still over 1188 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,760 Speaker 1: effects of policy change might have, or the long term 1189 01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:45,680 Speaker 1: consequences versus the short term consequences, and how different countries 1190 01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,200 Speaker 1: will respond to this change, or how different communities will 1191 01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,840 Speaker 1: be disproportionately affected by a change. And I think it 1192 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:52,960 Speaker 1: is so. I think if there was one thing that 1193 01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:55,280 Speaker 1: I would want voters to better appreciate is like that 1194 01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,280 Speaker 1: level of complexity and that we can be screaming from 1195 01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,240 Speaker 1: our living rooms like of course you should be doing 1196 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,400 Speaker 1: X or Y. The typically the story is more complicated 1197 01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,800 Speaker 1: if you just pull back the curtain a little bit. Indeed, 1198 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,440 Speaker 1: help me build empathy towards all the politicians that you 1199 01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,120 Speaker 1: know I've liked or not liked, or just you know, 1200 01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,200 Speaker 1: allowing me to see the complexity behind their story. Yeah. 1201 01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:18,280 Speaker 1: Well that's wonderful. I mean, that's that's exactly what we 1202 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:23,280 Speaker 1: all need. Did your kind of ability to, as you said, 1203 01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,520 Speaker 1: be on the inside, you know, both of the human 1204 01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,520 Speaker 1: brain and your behavioral science expertise, but also in terms 1205 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:31,720 Speaker 1: of you know, upper echelons of government policy. Is that 1206 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,840 Speaker 1: what led you to create your podcasts? Because I feel 1207 01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:37,520 Speaker 1: like perhaps it was the same instinct for me, which 1208 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,280 Speaker 1: is I want to give these conversations I'm so lucky 1209 01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,840 Speaker 1: to be part of to everyone who wants to hear them. Yeah, 1210 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,840 Speaker 1: it's a fantastic question. I think this podcast in many 1211 01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:51,240 Speaker 1: ways emerged from my humility as a scientist, and what 1212 01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,480 Speaker 1: I learned from my experience in government is that a 1213 01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of the answers around how we should navigate big 1214 01:07:56,880 --> 01:07:59,440 Speaker 1: change in our lives doesn't mine in a textbook. I 1215 01:07:59,480 --> 01:08:00,880 Speaker 1: wanted to be in a textbook. I want to be 1216 01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:02,840 Speaker 1: able to open up my textbook to page ninety and 1217 01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:05,120 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I'm going through this big change, or 1218 01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:07,360 Speaker 1: as a country or as this globe, we're going through 1219 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,280 Speaker 1: this big change, how do we how do we navigate it? 1220 01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:10,800 Speaker 1: And just like flip to the page and you learn 1221 01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,160 Speaker 1: the lessons. But experience in the White House taught me 1222 01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,840 Speaker 1: the power of storytelling and how important it is to 1223 01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:21,360 Speaker 1: listen to people's stories, their life stories, their perspectives on 1224 01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,960 Speaker 1: change their perspectives on their lives, because it can fill 1225 01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,120 Speaker 1: in gaps in our understanding of how it is that 1226 01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:30,320 Speaker 1: we can better support people. So give you one concrete example. 1227 01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,639 Speaker 1: When I was at the White House, I worked with Flint, 1228 01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,439 Speaker 1: Michigan during the Leaden Well. The Leaden water crisis is ongoing, 1229 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:42,440 Speaker 1: but our goal was to distill um safe water practices 1230 01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:45,400 Speaker 1: within the community. And it was only when I visited 1231 01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,320 Speaker 1: and actually met folks on the ground and Flint that 1232 01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,600 Speaker 1: I realized the depths of this problem. It's not a 1233 01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:54,519 Speaker 1: water problem. Water was a symptom of a much deeper 1234 01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:59,920 Speaker 1: problem that was resulting from decades of disenfranchisement, systemic races, 1235 01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:03,559 Speaker 1: um people of color in the community not feeling like 1236 01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:05,559 Speaker 1: they had a voice in their government and the decisions 1237 01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,120 Speaker 1: that were made by their government. And so to try 1238 01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:11,960 Speaker 1: to just solve for the water crisis was missing the 1239 01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,240 Speaker 1: underlying cause and the breach of trust that it happened 1240 01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:20,800 Speaker 1: between residents of Flint and their government. And so seeing 1241 01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:22,720 Speaker 1: that for sand and hearing people's stories, I mean, it 1242 01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:28,320 Speaker 1: just gave me a much more nuanced, rounder, under fuller 1243 01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:32,720 Speaker 1: understanding of what was that play. And so I have 1244 01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:34,960 Speaker 1: always felt like we have so much to learn from 1245 01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:38,840 Speaker 1: people's stories. And my podcast is slight Change of Plans 1246 01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,479 Speaker 1: in many ways is my attempt at marrying the science 1247 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,200 Speaker 1: with storytelling, you know, so I bring science to the table. 1248 01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:47,240 Speaker 1: We learned about the science of change, We learned about 1249 01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,080 Speaker 1: the science of um changing people's minds. But then you 1250 01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:52,240 Speaker 1: hear a story from someone like Darrell Davis, the black 1251 01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,479 Speaker 1: Dass musician who actually convinced people to lead the clan. 1252 01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,600 Speaker 1: Or I talked to Hillary Clinton about her decision to 1253 01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,000 Speaker 1: change her last name back in the day in Arkansas 1254 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,680 Speaker 1: out because of all the pressure she faced since she 1255 01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,040 Speaker 1: wasn't fulfilling the cookie cutter role that a first Lady 1256 01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:09,120 Speaker 1: of Arkansas ought to fulfill. Or a talk to Tiffany 1257 01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:12,719 Speaker 1: Hattish about navigating the foster system and an abusive mother 1258 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:17,200 Speaker 1: and discovering her superpower, you know, navigating or her superpower, 1259 01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,000 Speaker 1: which is to make people laugh, and how she use 1260 01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,120 Speaker 1: that superpower to navigate danger and get herself what she 1261 01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:24,960 Speaker 1: wanted over the course of her life. And I feel 1262 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,360 Speaker 1: like when you hear people's stories, that's how you can 1263 01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:30,240 Speaker 1: learn some of the best lessons, you know, like you 1264 01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,600 Speaker 1: can mind people's stories for insights and fresh ways of 1265 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,360 Speaker 1: thinking about change that you might never have thought of otherwise. 1266 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,439 Speaker 1: And I, you know, to that point about having this 1267 01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:44,000 Speaker 1: fundamental humility around how much we understand about the science 1268 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:47,280 Speaker 1: of change, Like I've learned so much from my guest 1269 01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,880 Speaker 1: Sophia about how to think differently about change in my 1270 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,280 Speaker 1: own life, and that is such a gift, such a 1271 01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:56,160 Speaker 1: blessing for me to leave every conversation being like, huh, 1272 01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:58,600 Speaker 1: maybe I should think about this thing differently. Or just 1273 01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:01,720 Speaker 1: last night, I was reflecting on a conversation I had 1274 01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:04,040 Speaker 1: with a person who's in the throes of stage four 1275 01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:07,840 Speaker 1: bone cancer, and I was just telling my husband, you know, 1276 01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:09,559 Speaker 1: I struggle with X y Z. But then I think 1277 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:12,000 Speaker 1: about Scott's story, and you know, one of the lessons 1278 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:14,519 Speaker 1: he taught me was that maybe my sense of identity 1279 01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,320 Speaker 1: is more quote negotiable than I thought, Like maybe the 1280 01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:18,880 Speaker 1: things that I thought were so coret of who I 1281 01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:21,479 Speaker 1: am aren't actually that court of who I am. And 1282 01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,160 Speaker 1: he's saying this as he's in the middle, He's a 1283 01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:25,479 Speaker 1: self proclaimed HealthNet in the middle of getting you know, 1284 01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: a leg amputated and a part of his spine removed 1285 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,519 Speaker 1: and eighteen administrations of chemotherapy, and he's telling me how 1286 01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:34,559 Speaker 1: he's revisiting his sense of self. And so I'm going 1287 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,439 Speaker 1: back into my own life thinking, oh, wow, I should 1288 01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:38,280 Speaker 1: revisit my sense of self, like as Scott can do, 1289 01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,960 Speaker 1: what anyone can, you know. And so yeah, it's just 1290 01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,559 Speaker 1: been such a blessing to get to learn about change 1291 01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:49,680 Speaker 1: and how to think about change through people's narratives. That's beautiful. 1292 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,400 Speaker 1: And one of the things I find myself most inspired 1293 01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:58,080 Speaker 1: by is when people choose to expand the amount of 1294 01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:02,599 Speaker 1: space they hold for new information and and for new experiences, 1295 01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:05,800 Speaker 1: both in the world and in in themselves. So that 1296 01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:10,479 Speaker 1: makes me feel really giddy and excited. And I love that, 1297 01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:13,960 Speaker 1: beautifully said. My favorite thing to ask everyone, and I 1298 01:12:13,960 --> 01:12:18,040 Speaker 1: wonder if that might be your answer, is what in 1299 01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:22,520 Speaker 1: your life at this moment feels like a work in progress? Yeah, 1300 01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,120 Speaker 1: it's related to my answer for sure. I think that 1301 01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,240 Speaker 1: works of progress for me is you know, as a scientist, 1302 01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:32,240 Speaker 1: it's so seductive to feel like there could be a 1303 01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:35,519 Speaker 1: one size fits all answer for people. And I think 1304 01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:40,439 Speaker 1: in making this podcast, I'm realizing how tailor made advice 1305 01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,160 Speaker 1: needs to be when it comes to the topic of 1306 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:45,400 Speaker 1: change and how we navigate change in our lives, because 1307 01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:47,439 Speaker 1: the way that we interact with the change can be 1308 01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,280 Speaker 1: so idiosyncratic. And so one thing I've had to be 1309 01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:54,559 Speaker 1: satisfied with is if I just lead every conversation and 1310 01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:59,280 Speaker 1: listeners lead every conversation thinking new thoughts about even one 1311 01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:02,800 Speaker 1: idea with the change domain, that's a success. There's not 1312 01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,640 Speaker 1: You're not going to get the how to guide on 1313 01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:06,920 Speaker 1: change from this podcast, and that's kind of the point, 1314 01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,320 Speaker 1: which is every person will take something different from any 1315 01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,120 Speaker 1: given person's story. You know, you might hear the Hillary 1316 01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:14,840 Speaker 1: Clinton interview and think one thing. I might hear the 1317 01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,640 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton interview thinks something completely different, And um, I 1318 01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:21,080 Speaker 1: think that's part of the magic of what it needs 1319 01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,439 Speaker 1: to be human, which is that we've taken all this 1320 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,439 Speaker 1: information and ultimately we do need to figure out how 1321 01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,559 Speaker 1: to tailor it to ourselves given our best understanding of 1322 01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:34,959 Speaker 1: who we are. I love that the ability to always 1323 01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:38,680 Speaker 1: add change, be flexible, that that, to me, feels like 1324 01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:41,919 Speaker 1: the kind of behavior we all need to really lean into. 1325 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:46,320 Speaker 1: So I appreciate that answer very much, and I thank 1326 01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:48,560 Speaker 1: you so much for joining me today. Of course, it 1327 01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:50,599 Speaker 1: was such a pleasure to chat with you, Sophia. Thank 1328 01:13:50,600 --> 01:14:00,560 Speaker 1: you for your time.