WEBVTT - The Real Killer Season 3: Ep. 16, The Perfect Case

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<v Speaker 1>A warning.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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<v Speaker 2>that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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<v Speaker 2>you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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<v Speaker 2>the end of this episode to find out where help

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<v Speaker 2>is available.

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<v Speaker 3>So.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been working on this for more than a year,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, like I have questions. Some people wrote

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<v Speaker 2>in they had a lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, You've never been afraid of hard questions because they

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<v Speaker 4>do force us to take a look at our case.

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<v Speaker 2>As this season is about to come to an end,

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<v Speaker 2>there are still so many unanswered questions, and especially since

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<v Speaker 2>the podcast has come out, I've gone back into the transcripts.

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<v Speaker 2>I've gone back to like, is there anything that I've missed.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Leah Rothman. This is The Real Killer, Episode sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>The Perfect Case. Before we can move forward with our finale,

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<v Speaker 2>I need to address something that's happened since our last episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Two days ago, I received an email from Byron's lead attorney,

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Russell on behalf of himself and the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the legal team about last week's Littering Case episode. It

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<v Speaker 2>began in part like this, quote. We've finally digested last

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<v Speaker 2>week's podcast and are disappointed in how you decided to

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<v Speaker 2>approach the discrepancy with Kelly's misdemeanor. We've been nothing but open, honest,

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<v Speaker 2>and straightforward with you, and we are baffled by this

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<v Speaker 2>one point eighty in your tone and attitude toward us.

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<v Speaker 2>We've never concealed or obfuscated the fact that Kelly's ticket

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<v Speaker 2>on case net had another case number belonging to Brendan.

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<v Speaker 2>Brian continues. Throughout our work on this case, we believed

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<v Speaker 2>that Kelly's sentence of forty eight hours shock time, thirty

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<v Speaker 2>days in jail in two years probation with the suspended

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<v Speaker 2>execution of that sentence was accurate because the charge was

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<v Speaker 2>a Class A misdemeanor, she had skipped her court date

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<v Speaker 2>and only appeared when picked up on a warrant. We

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<v Speaker 2>believed that any discrepancy was the portion of the docket

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<v Speaker 2>that says that Kelly's sentence was quote consecutive with case number.

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<v Speaker 2>Brian continues, that's why we're confused when you said this

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<v Speaker 2>was a new development, that it kept you up all night.

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<v Speaker 2>Brian goes on to say, how in at least a

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<v Speaker 2>few documents and filings which they had shared with me

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<v Speaker 2>dating back to late twenty twenty three. This other case

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<v Speaker 2>number was mentioned in the footnotes. He says I never

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<v Speaker 2>asked about it. Then, Brian says there was a timeline

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<v Speaker 2>they shared where in the notes section this other case

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<v Speaker 2>number was mentioned. He says I never asked about it.

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<v Speaker 2>He also points out that there were emails exchanged where

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<v Speaker 2>I had questions about Kelly's docket and I never asked

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<v Speaker 2>about it then either. Brian wrote that I had plenty

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<v Speaker 2>of time and opportunity to bring this discrepancy up to them.

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<v Speaker 2>He's right, except the reason I never ever asked them

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<v Speaker 2>about it was because in the thousands of pages I

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<v Speaker 2>alone have had to go through, I never saw it.

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<v Speaker 2>Had I seen it, I would have asked about it

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<v Speaker 2>long ago. Had I seen it, the way we presented

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly's littering case when it first came up in episode

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<v Speaker 2>seven would have been very different. Again, I'm sorry, but

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<v Speaker 2>I never saw it. The last line in Brian's email

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<v Speaker 2>reads quote when I said I hoped you didn't feel misled.

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<v Speaker 2>I should have been clearer. We did not mislead you.

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<v Speaker 2>We did not hide anything from you. We did not

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<v Speaker 2>misrepresent anything to you. We were open, honest, upfront and

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<v Speaker 2>answered all of your questions to the best of our

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<v Speaker 2>ability in a complicated and fact intensive case. I remain

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<v Speaker 2>proud of our team and the work that we've done

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<v Speaker 2>to help free an innocent man who was deprived of

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<v Speaker 2>a fair trial. Let me be very clear, Byron's legal

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<v Speaker 2>team has been open, honest, and very available to answer

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<v Speaker 2>all of my questions all along the way, and I'm

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<v Speaker 2>grateful for that. And I never said they misled me.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just surprised that they knew about this other

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<v Speaker 2>case number, and in all of the times we'd spoken

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<v Speaker 2>about the docket it never came up. But whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not they knew about it is not the issue. The

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<v Speaker 2>reason I needed to interview them about the discrepancy was

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<v Speaker 2>first because I simply needed to ask them about this

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<v Speaker 2>other docket number, since again I had never seen it before.

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<v Speaker 2>And second, I needed to share with the lit Listen

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<v Speaker 2>and Byron's team that considering this other case number, I

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<v Speaker 2>now cannot confidently say that that was in fact Kelly's sentence,

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<v Speaker 2>and it needed to be addressed because I gave a

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<v Speaker 2>platform for the theory that that was Kelly's sentence, which

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<v Speaker 2>meant she might have been in some bigger trouble and

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<v Speaker 2>in turn might have cooperated with prosecutors in the case

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<v Speaker 2>against Byron. I know that Byron's legal team one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>percent believes that's Kelly's sentence, and hell, who knows it

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<v Speaker 2>might just be Kelly says it isn't without proof, I

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<v Speaker 2>just don't know either way. Okay, as we are about

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<v Speaker 2>to begin our last episode, I want to acknowledge that

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<v Speaker 2>even with all of the left turns that have happened

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<v Speaker 2>so far, we have never lost sight that this whole

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<v Speaker 2>podcast and investigation is in an attempt to get to

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<v Speaker 2>the truth about what happened to Anastasia. Now stay with me,

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<v Speaker 2>because we are not going to go chronologically. We are

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<v Speaker 2>going to start with my most recent interview with Byron,

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<v Speaker 2>which took place after both of Kelly's episodes came out.

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<v Speaker 2>Byron's lead attorney, Brian Russell, wanted to be on the call,

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<v Speaker 2>so that day, Brian and I speak for a few

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<v Speaker 2>minutes before Byron calls in.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Ala, Hi, how are you good? Good good good?

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<v Speaker 2>Just so you know, Brian says, there was so much

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<v Speaker 2>in Kelly's interview that confirms for him. She lied back

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<v Speaker 2>when she came forward, and she's still lying today. Brian says,

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<v Speaker 2>Kelly conveniently doesn't remember key things, then other times comes

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<v Speaker 2>up with wild new details, like a three way call

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<v Speaker 2>that happened between her, Byron, and Justin that night after

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<v Speaker 2>Anastasia was murdered. Brian says, that didn't happen. What do

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<v Speaker 2>you make of the level of conviction that she has

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<v Speaker 2>when she says Byron killed Anastasia and she knows it,

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<v Speaker 2>he knows it.

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<v Speaker 1>What do you What do you make of that?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, I make of it that she wants people

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<v Speaker 5>to believe her. And then I also think, I mean,

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<v Speaker 5>she's admitted to having major problems with crack, cocaine and

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<v Speaker 5>meth anthetamy. Both of those drugs affect your brain in

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<v Speaker 5>a way that can lead to psychosis, which can lead

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<v Speaker 5>to the creation of false memories. So even where she

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<v Speaker 5>was when she came forward with the story, maybe she

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<v Speaker 5>does believe it. Maybe maybe in her mind these are

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<v Speaker 5>actual memories that she has created, right, but none of

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<v Speaker 5>them line up with any physical fact or any other

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<v Speaker 5>person that can support her story, any element of it.

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<v Speaker 6>We don't need to I don't.

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<v Speaker 5>Care why Kelly was I us know that she wied right,

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<v Speaker 5>I just know that her story isn't true because of

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<v Speaker 5>the physical evidence.

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<v Speaker 3>Here we go, Okay, hold on just saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Then Byron calls in.

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<v Speaker 7>Okay, Willa are you there?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, Byron, are you there yet?

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<v Speaker 1>I am Hileiah Hi, Byron? How are you.

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<v Speaker 3>Better than some people would like me to be? But yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 3>it's always an under the circumstances kind of question.

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<v Speaker 7>But yeah, I'm good. Thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>So you've listened to the podcast. I mean, you emailed me,

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<v Speaker 2>you've listened to the podcast. I mean, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>very big question right off the bat. But any anything

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<v Speaker 2>or anything that you want to say right off the bat,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we kind of touched on this a little

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<v Speaker 3>bit earlier. When I first emailed you, I said that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I was kind of withholding John and was sort of waiting,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, for something, for some sort of strong reaction.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess one way or the other or some way

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<v Speaker 3>that I might contribute, and it never really materialized for me.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think as the podcasts went on and I

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<v Speaker 3>heard more, there was a certain point where, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I was no longer able, so I actually haven't listened past,

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<v Speaker 3>I think because A seventh and so everything that I've

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<v Speaker 3>gotten since then has been kind of second hit. And

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<v Speaker 3>it's interesting because late ever since that happened, it seems

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<v Speaker 3>like that was really when things It seemed like that

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<v Speaker 3>was when for me, at least, more interesting content started

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<v Speaker 3>to come up. There was stuff that I had never

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<v Speaker 3>heard before. You did interviews with people that you know

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<v Speaker 3>that I had never necessarily even heard say certain things

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<v Speaker 3>that they were saying, and so, you know, way I

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<v Speaker 3>was glad that I wasn't able to listen because some

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<v Speaker 3>of that stuff was kind of upsetting and a reminder

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<v Speaker 3>I think of how really I guess I've lived in

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<v Speaker 3>a bubble, and you know, it's not like it's been

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<v Speaker 3>an echo chamber, but I'm in a sense I'm kind

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<v Speaker 3>of protected from a lot of people's opinions as far

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<v Speaker 3>as the case goes, and so it was kind of

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<v Speaker 3>a return to a not very good place as far

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<v Speaker 3>as that goes, you know, just being reminded of those

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<v Speaker 3>people and their and their opinions and you know, some

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<v Speaker 3>of the stuff that they said in that way.

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<v Speaker 2>In your email, you said that you were waiting to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to everything or waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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<v Speaker 2>What was the other shoe? Like, what were you what

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<v Speaker 2>did you mean by the other shoe?

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<v Speaker 3>So that's I think the sort of latent streak of pessimism.

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<v Speaker 7>That I've got.

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<v Speaker 3>It was just sort of waiting for things to take

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<v Speaker 3>an ugly turn. And just from the sound of it,

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<v Speaker 3>Kelly's episodes were were that a turn at least as

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<v Speaker 3>far as I'm concerned, you know, I was, I mean, honest,

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<v Speaker 3>I was initially a little bothered by the idea that

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<v Speaker 3>she would come forward after all of the information had

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<v Speaker 3>come in, after she'd had a chance, had a chance

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<v Speaker 3>to listen to all of the previous episodes. That really

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<v Speaker 3>hit a bigger pature and a greater understanding of what

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<v Speaker 3>was going on with the case and with things that

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<v Speaker 3>I just I know that she wasn't previously aware of

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<v Speaker 3>as far as you know, factual, and so it was

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<v Speaker 3>I just my my sort of kneejered reaction to that

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<v Speaker 3>was to be a little angry, I guess about just

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<v Speaker 3>the I guess giving her the platform to just sort

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<v Speaker 3>of spout whatever she's going to spout with this new

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<v Speaker 3>inform nation to her, or at least after she'd had

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<v Speaker 3>time to formulate whatever she was going to formulate, and

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know, And so that was sort of my

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<v Speaker 3>reaction to that. I felt was a little I don't know,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to say unfair, because that's not really

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know, that's not quite the right right word

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<v Speaker 3>for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Just so you know that her not speaking, I asked

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<v Speaker 2>her to listen to all of the episodes before making

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<v Speaker 2>a decision on whether or not to talk. So it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't like she did that on her own, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>because she was considering talking, and I just said, just

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<v Speaker 2>just wait and listen to all of the episodes and

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<v Speaker 2>then make a decision one way or another.

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<v Speaker 1>So just you know, that's on me. That's on me.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I understand that, you know, you're trying to

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<v Speaker 3>ensure that the person is going to have an understanding

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<v Speaker 3>that this is not going to be us, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>getting helly on and hit her with a bunch of

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<v Speaker 3>accusations or whatever. I mean, it makes sense because you know,

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<v Speaker 3>you wanted her to see that you're coming in this

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<v Speaker 3>with an even hand. But you know, I think that

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<v Speaker 3>the net effect was the same. I think that her

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<v Speaker 3>having had an opportunity to hear all of that did

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<v Speaker 3>give her I think of a little bit better preparedness,

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<v Speaker 3>I think for some of the stuff and some of

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<v Speaker 3>the directions that things were going to go. Although based

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<v Speaker 3>on what I've heard, I mean, she really didn't use

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<v Speaker 3>that to your advantage much.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>You said you haven't listened to the episodes yet, but

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, right, it to me, just at face value,

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<v Speaker 2>didn't seem like somebody who had studied the podcast and

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<v Speaker 2>came in with you know, you know, perfect answers to questions.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, sure, it's meandering, it's all over the map.

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<v Speaker 2>It didn't feel calculated to me. But but that is side.

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<v Speaker 1>We move on. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>I am a little meandering going between questions I have

0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.480
<v Speaker 2>for Byron and asking him to respond to some of

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:15.719
<v Speaker 2>Kelly's allegations. Let's talk about what did Why did Anastasia

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:16.679
<v Speaker 2>have a stun gun?

0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 1>You know, to the best of your knowledge.

0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:20.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't.

0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:22.120
<v Speaker 7>I don't really know.

0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember as I were talking about it as

0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 3>far as like reasons or anything. I don't even remember

0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 3>when she bought it, or or really or anything about it.

0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:34.760
<v Speaker 7>I knew that he had one.

0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.480
<v Speaker 3>But you know, I also, again I knew that Byron

0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:38.960
<v Speaker 3>Mercia that Justin had one.

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 1>Did you have a stun gun?

0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:41.480
<v Speaker 7>I did?

0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:43.400
<v Speaker 1>Why did you have one?

0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:48.200
<v Speaker 3>I bought it, well, hardly because they had them. And

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 3>first just for me personally, it seemed like.

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 7>Not a bad idea to own one.

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.080
<v Speaker 3>The neighborhood that I lived in was not especially I

0:14:58.200 --> 0:14:59.600
<v Speaker 3>want to say it was a bad neighborhood.

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.480
<v Speaker 7>It wasn't great. I lived around a lot of bars and.

0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.080
<v Speaker 3>Clubs, and you know, there was a there was a

0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 3>bit of violence that would kind of sort of erupt

0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 3>here and there, fight assaults, muggings. I was mugged just

0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 3>down the street.

0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 7>From my apartment one time at my point, you know,

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.800
<v Speaker 7>for like ten dollars in my wallet, you know. And

0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.640
<v Speaker 7>I've been at.

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.840
<v Speaker 3>One point beaten up just I guess because I look

0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 3>different outside of a Country and Western bar that was

0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:38.440
<v Speaker 3>in that area. Like three guys just attacked me, and

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, so it seemed like not an unreasonable thing to.

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Have, Tara.

0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you know this, but Tara told Sergeant Kilgore

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.120
<v Speaker 2>the story that all of you three, I think, tased

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.280
<v Speaker 2>a homeless guy who were all there for the tasing

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.640
<v Speaker 2>of this homeless guy sitting on some steps he was

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.239
<v Speaker 2>drunk in Westport?

0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.320
<v Speaker 1>What why? What can you tell me about that?

0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.160
<v Speaker 3>I have absolutely no recall of anything like that happening,

0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.840
<v Speaker 3>So I don't know where Kara got that from or

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 3>what she was talking about.

0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.720
<v Speaker 2>What do you make of Anastasia's stun gun being found

0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 2>on her bed?

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 7>That's a good.

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.320
<v Speaker 3>Question, and I don't really I don't really.

0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.440
<v Speaker 7>Have an answer. I can only wonder about.

0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:31.520
<v Speaker 3>It, and I'd rather not use this platform to speculate.

0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:36.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right, let's talk about some of the stuff

0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:44.120
<v Speaker 2>that Kelly said in her interview. So let's start with well,

0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:49.600
<v Speaker 2>keeping with the homeless people in Westport, Kelly said that

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.720
<v Speaker 2>you paid an overweight homeless guy named Slog to do

0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 2>jumping jacks as a way to humiliate him.

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Did that happen? Why did you do that?

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:01.960
<v Speaker 7>Okay?

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 3>So this is I think a really good example of

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:10.480
<v Speaker 3>Kelly taking a seed of something and turning it issue

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:17.200
<v Speaker 3>something else. What happened? Uh, there was a guy who

0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 3>also panhandled kind of a mass area, and we justin

0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Anastasia and I I don't remember if Kelly was there,

0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.480
<v Speaker 3>but I know that the three of us at least were,

0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.160
<v Speaker 3>and Dustin had just bought some donuts and we were

0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 3>walking down the street. He had a box of a

0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.280
<v Speaker 3>dozen donuts and we saw this guy and he asked

0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.720
<v Speaker 3>us for some spare change, and Justin said, you know,

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 3>well out of a patenty that we were willing to come.

0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:57.159
<v Speaker 3>And so Justin said that I'll gi you a donut

0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:03.040
<v Speaker 3>if you do some jumping jacks, and.

0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:01.920
<v Speaker 7>And the guy.

0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 3>Readily agreed and gnu and did some jumping jacks and

0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:14.520
<v Speaker 3>Justin but haven't don't that it was one of those

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:22.480
<v Speaker 3>things where I really I was not aultigether comfortable with

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.439
<v Speaker 3>the situation, but I was still in a kind of

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.720
<v Speaker 3>like sort of moment way a hubist bias. And of course,

0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:33.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, not my proudest moment.

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.760
<v Speaker 7>By any means, but yeah, I mean that kind of happened.

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay. So Kelly tells the story.

0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:50.239
<v Speaker 2>That you all went to that Mormon temple, you were

0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:54.440
<v Speaker 2>dressed up as a priest, and you did this big

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 2>tour of the church because there was a plan to

0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.719
<v Speaker 2>kidnap you know, the bishop or something and hold him

0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.800
<v Speaker 2>for ransom money. But she says, you know, you spent

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:12.680
<v Speaker 2>this whole Saturday on this tour and what can you

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:13.320
<v Speaker 2>tell me about that?

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we we did.

0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:22.080
<v Speaker 7>Take a short see r LDS Temple.

0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.440
<v Speaker 3>On South Chrystler and Independence Surius, the States Fire Building.

0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:27.200
<v Speaker 7>And.

0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.359
<v Speaker 3>I did go wearing a clerical shirt that I owned.

0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.200
<v Speaker 3>You know, it was one of those one of those

0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.760
<v Speaker 3>things where it felt really transgressive. You know, we were

0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:46.080
<v Speaker 3>feeling pretty like goofy and like we were really just

0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.200
<v Speaker 3>by being there. I felt like we were doing something

0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.440
<v Speaker 3>we probably shouldn't be. So it wasn't really a bad thing,

0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:58.600
<v Speaker 3>but you know, that was something that we definitely enjoyed doing.

0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.320
<v Speaker 7>It was you know, or you.

0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.680
<v Speaker 3>Know, if it was like kind of pushing.

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 7>Some boundaries, then we.

0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:09.480
<v Speaker 3>As a as a general rule, we were all for

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 3>that sort of thing. As far as a plan, this.

0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.400
<v Speaker 7>Actually came up at my trial briefly.

0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.800
<v Speaker 3>They wanted to introduce something that Kelly had talked about

0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:27.200
<v Speaker 3>this then too, trying to say that we had justin

0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.760
<v Speaker 3>Stasia and I had a plan to blow up a

0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:36.359
<v Speaker 3>church or take the like the president or whatever they

0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.040
<v Speaker 3>head of the church hostage or something. So I would

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.679
<v Speaker 3>say to that that we did have a plan.

0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:47.600
<v Speaker 7>In name only.

0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.200
<v Speaker 3>We were sitting around one night and it became this

0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:55.600
<v Speaker 3>ridiculous sort of thing. The plan in question calls for

0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.320
<v Speaker 3>us getting some T four and having night vision goggles

0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:04.320
<v Speaker 3>and stuff like that. Clearly, this was not an actual

0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.640
<v Speaker 3>plan that anybody was going to carry out or anticipated

0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.160
<v Speaker 3>plan carrying out.

0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I mean, I think that she uses that as

0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.639
<v Speaker 2>an example of some of like that and going to

0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:19.400
<v Speaker 2>rob Justin's.

0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.320
<v Speaker 1>Parents, that there were these.

0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:28.520
<v Speaker 2>Plans that never came to fruition, so that when the

0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.919
<v Speaker 2>plan came up to kill Anastasia, she didn't necessarily believe

0:21:32.920 --> 0:21:35.160
<v Speaker 2>it because there had been so many crazy plans before

0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>that she didn't think it was anything that you guys

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 2>would follow through with.

0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.639
<v Speaker 8>Okay, Okay.

0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:52.359
<v Speaker 2>She says that there was the night of October twenty second,

0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.919
<v Speaker 2>and this was a new detail that she shared with me.

0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:57.919
<v Speaker 2>On the night of October twenty second, there was a

0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 2>three way phone call that night after every one was

0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:05.439
<v Speaker 2>back home, between you, Kelly and Justin. Was there a

0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:06.679
<v Speaker 2>three way call that evening?

0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:13.480
<v Speaker 1>No, that's no, you never. You never spoke with Justin

0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:13.880
<v Speaker 1>that night.

0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:15.080
<v Speaker 7>No.

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.080
<v Speaker 3>He dropped me off at my place and I didn't

0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 3>speak with him until.

0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:20.480
<v Speaker 7>The next morning. Okay.

0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Kelly said that this was a new another new detail

0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.840
<v Speaker 2>she had told the story before, where she said, like,

0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.919
<v Speaker 2>how could you have killed her? Speaking about Anastasia? You

0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.000
<v Speaker 2>know you're a murderer. How do you feel about that?

0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:42.919
<v Speaker 2>And you know, and the story i'd heard this before,

0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.280
<v Speaker 2>we hadn't heard this before that she said that, you said,

0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:50.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't consider myself a murderer. Murderer, doesn't feel bad,

0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:52.080
<v Speaker 2>and I feel bad about what happened, or something to

0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.879
<v Speaker 2>that effect. But this time that she told the story,

0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.680
<v Speaker 2>she said that you grabbed her by the neck and

0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:02.400
<v Speaker 2>threw her or slammed her. Again is the wall did

0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:02.919
<v Speaker 2>that happen?

0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:04.560
<v Speaker 6>No?

0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:10.240
<v Speaker 3>No, I never laid my hand on Kelly in any

0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.959
<v Speaker 3>violent ways. That's not been my character.

0:23:14.720 --> 0:23:16.720
<v Speaker 7>I don't That's just not me.

0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:22.720
<v Speaker 3>And I just like to add briefly one thing.

0:23:28.040 --> 0:23:28.640
<v Speaker 7>I think that.

0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.400
<v Speaker 3>When you say, you know, oh, here's a new detail,

0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.200
<v Speaker 3>I think, really what you're saying is that that here's.

0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:36.680
<v Speaker 7>Some more bullshit.

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:45.000
<v Speaker 3>I just think I don't know it is It is

0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 3>so ridiculous to me, this idea that you know, she

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:53.520
<v Speaker 3>just keeps piling on and piling on, and that anybody

0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:59.360
<v Speaker 3>believes her if these were things that actually happened, These

0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:04.840
<v Speaker 3>were things that were troubling her or whatever, she would

0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.960
<v Speaker 3>have come out with them years ago. There was the

0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:12.160
<v Speaker 3>time for unburdening was two thousand one, two thousand and two.

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:17.199
<v Speaker 3>At this point, I feel like anybody giving any credibility

0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.840
<v Speaker 3>whatsoever to anything she is saying that his quote unquote

0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 3>knew is the officer.

0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Kelly also said that you had told other people like

0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Abraham and Tara that you killed Anastasia.

0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:36.320
<v Speaker 1>What do you have to say about that?

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.479
<v Speaker 3>And that's another great example of that. Again, you know

0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:46.880
<v Speaker 3>Brom and Tara. While you know Kara's not with us anymore,

0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:52.080
<v Speaker 3>she was not a person in Vince words and Brom.

0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:52.520
<v Speaker 7>Never was either.

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:56.720
<v Speaker 3>If they had something to say, if they knew something,

0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.920
<v Speaker 3>they are so transparent. Tarah was so transparent about everything.

0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:06.280
<v Speaker 3>She didn't keep anything in. This would have come out

0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:11.760
<v Speaker 3>so long ago, becad it actually happened. So that's that's

0:25:11.800 --> 0:25:12.840
<v Speaker 3>all I have to say about that.

0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:17.679
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Kelly says that there was a time that you

0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:22.320
<v Speaker 2>welded a pitchfork to your car and put a chicken

0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.840
<v Speaker 2>chicken carcass on it and drove around town with that.

0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:33.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that's actually kind of true. So, like I said,

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:37.800
<v Speaker 3>we were always into kind of transgressive stuff. I had

0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:42.080
<v Speaker 3>a group of friends who we we all had these big,

0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:46.159
<v Speaker 3>old cars and we One of my friends was a

0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:50.199
<v Speaker 3>welder and an artist, and he said, hey, you've had

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 3>this car for a little while, let's let's put something

0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:54.160
<v Speaker 3>on it. And I said, okay, what have you got?

0:25:54.680 --> 0:25:56.879
<v Speaker 3>I went ounce to the garage and he kind of

0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:00.560
<v Speaker 3>a pitchfork, and I said, absolutely not. And my other

0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:03.320
<v Speaker 3>friend was like, no, no, I think that's I think

0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 3>you have to do that. I think that's going to

0:26:04.880 --> 0:26:10.080
<v Speaker 3>be the thing. So I consented, and he welded the

0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:12.000
<v Speaker 3>head of this pitchfork to the hood of my car.

0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:18.239
<v Speaker 3>About a week or two later, I was over at

0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:23.880
<v Speaker 3>my friend Robert house and Abraham was there and they

0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:28.280
<v Speaker 3>had apparently they had thought out an eight pound fire

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:32.800
<v Speaker 3>chicken and had no intention of actually cooking. And while

0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:36.560
<v Speaker 3>I was using the restroom at one point from took

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:39.040
<v Speaker 3>the chicken out to the car and put it on

0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:41.880
<v Speaker 3>the hitch work. And then when we when I went

0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:44.640
<v Speaker 3>to go leave that new thing, I saw it there

0:26:44.800 --> 0:26:49.080
<v Speaker 3>and was just like okay, because it was another We

0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:52.199
<v Speaker 3>pranked each other all the time like this. All my

0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:55.480
<v Speaker 3>friends that had these cars, we oftentimes would put food

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:58.440
<v Speaker 3>on them, and there was kind of a rule that

0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:00.919
<v Speaker 3>you couldn't remove the food to you know, let the

0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 3>weather and animals carry it away. So I was stuck

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:10.840
<v Speaker 3>with a chicken stuck to front of my car. And

0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:12.600
<v Speaker 3>I know that a lot got made out of that,

0:27:14.200 --> 0:27:17.000
<v Speaker 3>calling it a chicken carcass. I think it's one good example.

0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:20.760
<v Speaker 3>It would have been dinner, just like a week before Adams,

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:23.240
<v Speaker 3>but it was not finished.

0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:28.159
<v Speaker 2>It was just a goof The next two are a

0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.320
<v Speaker 2>little uncomfortable, but I'm just going to ask you. So

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:38.000
<v Speaker 2>she also, Kelly also said that you participated in necrophilia.

0:27:39.280 --> 0:27:40.280
<v Speaker 7>I heard about this.

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:51.960
<v Speaker 3>I was in a way shot and also disgusted, but

0:27:52.160 --> 0:27:57.399
<v Speaker 3>also it's so outlandish that I had to laugh. It

0:27:57.520 --> 0:27:59.720
<v Speaker 3>is so unbelievable.

0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:03.159
<v Speaker 7>I just I can't.

0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:09.560
<v Speaker 3>Even fathom the idea of this. Unequivocally, No, no, absolutely not.

0:28:11.000 --> 0:28:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Did you ever say it to her as as like, you.

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:17.360
<v Speaker 7>Know just what I think I even know.

0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:18.520
<v Speaker 3>I don't think I've.

0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:20.200
<v Speaker 7>Even joked about something like.

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:26.600
<v Speaker 3>That, Like I don't know, but I just I really

0:28:26.600 --> 0:28:28.359
<v Speaker 3>believe that that's something that she's just come.

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Up with on her own, And you understand, I just

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:32.119
<v Speaker 2>have to I mean, I have to give you a

0:28:32.200 --> 0:28:35.639
<v Speaker 2>chance to respond to this this stuff because she says it.

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:41.680
<v Speaker 2>She also said that you told her, and again this

0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:44.800
<v Speaker 2>is uncomfortable, But she also said that you told her

0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 2>the best way for you, or the quickest way when

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.120
<v Speaker 2>you were masturbating, was to do it over dead animals.

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:57.120
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's absurd too, same or Eason, maybe even more so.

0:28:57.440 --> 0:28:57.880
<v Speaker 7>I don't know.

0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:01.360
<v Speaker 3>It's hard to weigh those sorts of things. I love animals,

0:29:01.480 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 3>not in that way.

0:29:04.880 --> 0:29:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, this one is definitely more serious. Kelly said that

0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>there was a plan to kill your father to basically

0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:19.640
<v Speaker 2>keep him from having to die a very painful death

0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:24.240
<v Speaker 2>or a prolonged death, and because you know he had HIV.

0:29:25.520 --> 0:29:27.160
<v Speaker 2>What do you have to say about that? She tells

0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a very specific story that you were going to lure

0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.320
<v Speaker 2>your father out to like some cornfields in the middle

0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 2>of nowhere and say that you had, you know, car trouble,

0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and while he was under the hood of the car,

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:41.160
<v Speaker 2>you were going to shoot him.

0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:43.800
<v Speaker 1>What do you have to say about that?

0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:49.880
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot that I could probably say about that,

0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:56.360
<v Speaker 3>but I'll say this, I do think it's interesting that

0:29:56.480 --> 0:30:02.160
<v Speaker 3>the same or that he's two stories that she's concocted

0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:08.040
<v Speaker 3>one about a death that actually took place, and another

0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:11.840
<v Speaker 3>about a death as she says was planned to take place.

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:16.800
<v Speaker 3>That they both involved driving out somewhere to a secluded

0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:21.120
<v Speaker 3>thought and shooting someone. I don't I don't really know

0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:23.480
<v Speaker 3>what to make about that, other than you know, it

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:27.560
<v Speaker 3>seems like it's it's just kind of a motif. I

0:30:27.600 --> 0:30:33.960
<v Speaker 3>guess that shows up in her imaginings. No, that plan

0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:36.720
<v Speaker 3>never used it.

0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:40.680
<v Speaker 7>The idea of that is reprehensible.

0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:41.680
<v Speaker 6>To me.

0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 3>I love my father, but the idea of putting him

0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:52.920
<v Speaker 3>out of some of that and misery, uh, that that

0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:56.200
<v Speaker 3>was not something I had a hard enough time really

0:30:56.200 --> 0:31:00.800
<v Speaker 3>making the decision of when the time came to take

0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:05.360
<v Speaker 3>them off fights for the words, that was incredibly difficult,

0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:08.640
<v Speaker 3>and I would say the hardest decision I ever had

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:13.160
<v Speaker 3>to make. And to claim that that was something that

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:19.360
<v Speaker 3>I wouldn't impasily, it's disgusting that plan never existed.

0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:21.480
<v Speaker 7>That thought never entered my head.

0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:24.360
<v Speaker 3>It's just poor bullshit.

0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:32.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, another question I have is about the June fifth

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:33.160
<v Speaker 2>recorded phone call.

0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:35.400
<v Speaker 1>There is a part.

0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:37.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, so much is made about the should or shouldn't,

0:31:38.240 --> 0:31:41.160
<v Speaker 2>and we've already talked about why you didn't just say

0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:45.120
<v Speaker 2>what are you talking about? You know you didn't deny it,

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:48.840
<v Speaker 2>but not about that part. My question is about there's

0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:52.280
<v Speaker 2>a part in the phone call where you say to her,

0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>just say you don't remember. Kelly says, don't you remember?

0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.560
<v Speaker 2>You don't remember what we said at all? And you say,

0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I do. But what is what were you referring to there?

0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 2>And I know it's been a long time, but you know,

0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:10.680
<v Speaker 2>what is the idea? What is the story? I mean,

0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:12.480
<v Speaker 2>what are you about to say? There?

0:32:13.200 --> 0:32:14.640
<v Speaker 7>Oh? I have no idea.

0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:21.760
<v Speaker 3>I you know that that conversation was twenty.

0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:24.440
<v Speaker 7>Four years ago. Whatever I might have had on my

0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:26.600
<v Speaker 7>mind at that time, and was about.

0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:27.720
<v Speaker 3>To say, I don't know.

0:32:28.840 --> 0:32:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Did you think that you were being recorded?

0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:38.600
<v Speaker 3>Again? I don't really remember the conversation, so but no,

0:32:38.720 --> 0:32:41.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean I wouldn't. I don't believe that that ever

0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:42.720
<v Speaker 3>would have crossed my mind.

0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:45.560
<v Speaker 1>What do you think happened that night?

0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:49.840
<v Speaker 3>I know that some things that I've you know, learned

0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 3>over the years have inclined me into one theory or another.

0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:02.840
<v Speaker 3>But here's the thing. I would argue that I'm sitting

0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:07.160
<v Speaker 3>in prison today, and I set in prison since I

0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 3>was twenty two years old, more than half a lifetime

0:33:10.400 --> 0:33:15.640
<v Speaker 3>ago is from where I say now because people speculated,

0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:23.800
<v Speaker 3>and because people acted on theories or or talked openly

0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:29.560
<v Speaker 3>about theories without any supporting evidence, without anything backing up

0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:34.880
<v Speaker 3>what they had to say, just based on feelings, selposition, suspicion,

0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:40.160
<v Speaker 3>whatever you want to call them, and I refuse, both

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:42.320
<v Speaker 3>morally and constitutionally.

0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 7>I will not do.

0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:50.480
<v Speaker 3>The same because I don't know looking forward, you know

0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:54.719
<v Speaker 3>what those things that I speculated about might be construed as,

0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:56.880
<v Speaker 3>or what they might hew to somebody else.

0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:02.480
<v Speaker 7>I just I can't do that, and.

0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:11.359
<v Speaker 3>So I've basically resigned myself to ignorance until more comes in,

0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:15.560
<v Speaker 3>until I have something like really substantive, until I have

0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:18.600
<v Speaker 3>something that says, oh, we now know ex Lly and Z.

0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:20.280
<v Speaker 1>I understand.

0:34:21.200 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 2>Is there anything else you think I should know or

0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:28.239
<v Speaker 2>you want the listeners to know, or anything you want

0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:31.320
<v Speaker 2>to say that I haven't asked.

0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:33.680
<v Speaker 7>I'm thinking.

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:41.320
<v Speaker 3>I think the big takeaway here for anybody listening really

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:46.319
<v Speaker 3>is just that there is a lot of information. In

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.759
<v Speaker 3>this case, there's a lot of stuff to have to

0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:53.560
<v Speaker 3>sit through in order to come to anything like a

0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:57.360
<v Speaker 3>reasoned conclusion about what happened, or at least a reason

0:34:57.400 --> 0:35:01.799
<v Speaker 3>and conclusion about whether I had anything to do with it.

0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:05.439
<v Speaker 3>But I think that if you pay attention, if you're

0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:09.600
<v Speaker 3>if you're really like looking at facts, really paying attention,

0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.400
<v Speaker 3>it's going to come away with a pretty clear picture

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.239
<v Speaker 3>that Kelly is absolutely full of shit.

0:35:16.640 --> 0:35:18.640
<v Speaker 7>She is a very very.

0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 3>Troubled person, I think, more so now than even what

0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:22.800
<v Speaker 3>I knew.

0:35:23.280 --> 0:35:23.759
<v Speaker 6>But that.

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:28.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, really it just comes down to not so

0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:35.040
<v Speaker 3>much what she says today or or even really if some.

0:35:34.960 --> 0:35:37.680
<v Speaker 7>Of them more exaggerated or.

0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 3>Over the top stuff that she spent years ago. It

0:35:40.920 --> 0:35:43.560
<v Speaker 3>just comes down to whether or not it atches what

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:47.319
<v Speaker 3>we know to be fact. And that's I guess what

0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:50.160
<v Speaker 3>I would encourage everybody to look at what we know

0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:53.880
<v Speaker 3>to be fat you see that it has absolutely nothing

0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:59.360
<v Speaker 3>to do with me. That all those facts point away

0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:03.200
<v Speaker 3>from me. I think the decision is free sream to

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:07.479
<v Speaker 3>make as far as whether or not you think I had.

0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:08.799
<v Speaker 7>An aging stations then.

0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:26.640
<v Speaker 2>So now, going back in time, the morning after I

0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:29.959
<v Speaker 2>interviewed Kelly in Kansas City, I met with Byron's legal

0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:33.759
<v Speaker 2>team at Brian Russell's law offices for what was supposed

0:36:33.840 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 2>to be our final interview. And obviously this was before

0:36:38.600 --> 0:36:41.680
<v Speaker 2>both of Kelly's episodes came out and the whole littering

0:36:41.800 --> 0:36:46.360
<v Speaker 2>case thing happened. The entire team was there, including Brian,

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Nicole Gordon, Sean O'Brien, and Quinn O'Brien. Their paralegal, Jenna

0:36:51.239 --> 0:36:55.160
<v Speaker 2>was there too. Because I had four microphones for the

0:36:55.239 --> 0:37:00.480
<v Speaker 2>five of us, Quinn and Nicole share one. Okay, so

0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.120
<v Speaker 2>we'll just go around the table. Have you been listening

0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:08.320
<v Speaker 2>to the podcast, and if so, Sean, what is standing

0:37:08.400 --> 0:37:11.279
<v Speaker 2>out to you, any new revelations?

0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:12.640
<v Speaker 1>What has stood out to you?

0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:17.839
<v Speaker 6>I have been listening to the podcast. I read the

0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:23.640
<v Speaker 6>transcript of Kelly Moffitt's right along with Kilgore where she

0:37:23.680 --> 0:37:26.640
<v Speaker 6>goes to Lincoln Cemetery, and it's one thing to see

0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:28.640
<v Speaker 6>it in the transcript, but that's one tape I had

0:37:28.680 --> 0:37:32.600
<v Speaker 6>never listened to. She has never been to Lincoln Cemetery,

0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:37.239
<v Speaker 6>and that's very clear. She can't pick out the you

0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:41.640
<v Speaker 6>know where this where Anastasia was found, But if you've

0:37:41.640 --> 0:37:45.359
<v Speaker 6>been to Lincoln Cemetery and you knew where she had been,

0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:49.239
<v Speaker 6>you would never miss that. It's impossible to miss. She

0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:53.480
<v Speaker 6>also said that she could see headlights going by, and

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:55.759
<v Speaker 6>if you've been to Lincoln Cemetery. You also know that

0:37:55.840 --> 0:38:00.719
<v Speaker 6>it's impossible. So that's the one thing that stands out

0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:05.920
<v Speaker 6>to me. And then look listening to what other people say.

0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:09.520
<v Speaker 6>You know, there are a couple people who say they

0:38:09.560 --> 0:38:14.000
<v Speaker 6>believe Kelly, but they believe Kelly because Kelly is such

0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:14.840
<v Speaker 6>a good liar.

0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:15.560
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:17.360
<v Speaker 1>The only way.

0:38:17.120 --> 0:38:20.680
<v Speaker 6>To know whether Kelly's lying or not is to look

0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:24.440
<v Speaker 6>at what she says and find something in the outside

0:38:24.520 --> 0:38:28.920
<v Speaker 6>world that would say that's truthful. There's only one statement

0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:32.359
<v Speaker 6>where you can do that, the one where Anastasia got

0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:36.279
<v Speaker 6>out of the car. Don Rand says that happened, Bob

0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:40.799
<v Speaker 6>Whitbullshugen says that happened. At least three other unnamed witnesses

0:38:40.880 --> 0:38:44.920
<v Speaker 6>that were hidden from us say that happened. The physical

0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:50.440
<v Speaker 6>evidence says that happened. And so the one truthful statement

0:38:51.120 --> 0:38:54.160
<v Speaker 6>is her first one, and that's really clear, and I

0:38:54.200 --> 0:38:59.360
<v Speaker 6>think the podcast kind of makes that point. So to me,

0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:05.839
<v Speaker 6>it's how well does the lawyer at the trial take

0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 6>on those issues and expose credibility, you know, where it

0:39:10.440 --> 0:39:14.640
<v Speaker 6>needs to be. The other thing we know about Kelly

0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:18.600
<v Speaker 6>is that she is a drug addict. An addict line,

0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 6>It's just a fact of life.

0:39:21.080 --> 0:39:23.320
<v Speaker 1>We don't need to go for here's Brian.

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:27.160
<v Speaker 9>What I've found interesting about the podcast is just to

0:39:27.239 --> 0:39:32.680
<v Speaker 9>hear a story told through someone else that we've been

0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:35.680
<v Speaker 9>working on and trying to figure out for, you know,

0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:39.680
<v Speaker 9>several years at this point, and so it's really a

0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:43.040
<v Speaker 9>lot of people on the team or and past members

0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:46.879
<v Speaker 9>of the team would tell you that, you know, when

0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:49.680
<v Speaker 9>you're working on this case, you keep waiting for well,

0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:52.840
<v Speaker 9>wait what he was convicted. There must be more evidence

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:57.560
<v Speaker 9>than just Kelly and the tape, and you keep waiting

0:39:57.560 --> 0:40:00.399
<v Speaker 9>for something to come out somebody else to say say, well,

0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:03.920
<v Speaker 9>actually I knew this about Byron, or I saw this

0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:09.440
<v Speaker 9>thing happen, and it never happens. It's always Byron was

0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:10.239
<v Speaker 9>a decent guy.

0:40:10.360 --> 0:40:11.000
<v Speaker 8>Yeah he was.

0:40:11.440 --> 0:40:16.400
<v Speaker 9>He could come across as weird or whatever. But even

0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 9>this past within the past week, we've gotten other people

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:23.800
<v Speaker 9>that come forward with statements for us, saying I was

0:40:23.840 --> 0:40:25.400
<v Speaker 9>in need and Byron helped me.

0:40:25.520 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 8>He was the only person to help me.

0:40:27.280 --> 0:40:30.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think that person Brian is referring to

0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:34.200
<v Speaker 2>as a woman named Kim Yeoman. She's written to me too,

0:40:34.600 --> 0:40:36.840
<v Speaker 2>wanting me to know that Byron is a good person.

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.919
<v Speaker 2>Incapable of committing a crime like murder. She said, during

0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.320
<v Speaker 2>some of her darkest days when she was a homeless

0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:48.279
<v Speaker 2>teen living in abandoned houses in Kansas City, Byron would

0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:52.520
<v Speaker 2>bring her food and was just a kind, generous, safe,

0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:56.600
<v Speaker 2>trustworthy person to be around. Kim wanted me to know

0:40:56.640 --> 0:40:59.560
<v Speaker 2>that she has reviewed many court documents and she has

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:04.920
<v Speaker 2>found no credible evidence linking Byron to Anastasia's murder. She

0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:08.640
<v Speaker 2>believes Byron is innocent. Here's Nicole.

0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:12.239
<v Speaker 10>I would say that there are a lot of nuances

0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:14.919
<v Speaker 10>to the story that didn't get told just because there's

0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:17.880
<v Speaker 10>not enough time. The one that I would point out

0:41:17.920 --> 0:41:20.920
<v Speaker 10>would be the timeline. I always go back to the timeline.

0:41:21.080 --> 0:41:24.960
<v Speaker 10>Anastasia called Justin's apartment from the Dairy Queen, and we

0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:27.040
<v Speaker 10>know that because she came back inside and told Don

0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:29.520
<v Speaker 10>Wright that her boyfriend didn't want to pick her up

0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:33.840
<v Speaker 10>because he'd already made plans with his best friend. Anastasia

0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:37.160
<v Speaker 10>could have made that call to Justin had Justin, Kelly,

0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:38.759
<v Speaker 10>and Byron been on their way to pick her up

0:41:38.760 --> 0:41:45.000
<v Speaker 10>at Dairy Queen from Lenexa. So it's the little things

0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:47.440
<v Speaker 10>like that that are weaved throughout the entire case that

0:41:47.640 --> 0:41:50.640
<v Speaker 10>let me know in the beginning and even today and

0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:54.600
<v Speaker 10>even as I hear you tell the story, yeah that

0:41:55.040 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 10>you know, it just confirms what the facts.

0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:03.560
<v Speaker 9>Say, right, because as we're working on the habeas and

0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:07.359
<v Speaker 9>weighing that timeline back out again for the tenth time.

0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:13.920
<v Speaker 9>According to Kelly's story and her timeline, the fabricated timeline,

0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:16.680
<v Speaker 9>they pick her up Byron and Justin pick her up

0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:20.080
<v Speaker 9>at her place at four o'clock. They go straight to

0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:23.840
<v Speaker 9>the gas station where she calls Anastasia. And this is

0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:27.759
<v Speaker 9>at four fifteen, four thirty, and she says, I've I've

0:42:27.880 --> 0:42:33.680
<v Speaker 9>spoke to Anastasia then, and Anastasia says, where are we meeting?

0:42:34.360 --> 0:42:38.120
<v Speaker 9>And Kelly says at the Dairy Queen. Well, according to

0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:42.799
<v Speaker 9>Diane and Fran, Anastasia was already on her way to

0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:46.719
<v Speaker 9>Mount Washington or at Mount Washington when Kelly says she's making.

0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 10>That phone call and stayed at Mount Washington for an hour, right,

0:42:50.400 --> 0:42:53.280
<v Speaker 10>waited and then for an hour and told a couple

0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:55.160
<v Speaker 10>test driving a car in the cemetery.

0:42:55.200 --> 0:42:56.200
<v Speaker 8>Story, No, that's okay.

0:42:56.760 --> 0:42:58.399
<v Speaker 1>It told a couple who is.

0:42:58.360 --> 0:43:00.839
<v Speaker 10>Test driving a car in the cemetery. They stopped her

0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 10>and they said the cemetery is about to close.

0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:03.520
<v Speaker 1>It's chili.

0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.080
<v Speaker 10>So they were checking on her and they said, you know,

0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:08.400
<v Speaker 10>just to let you know, and she said, that's okay.

0:43:08.440 --> 0:43:11.080
<v Speaker 10>I'm waiting for my boyfriend. And that was an hour

0:43:11.120 --> 0:43:12.040
<v Speaker 10>after she was dropped off.

0:43:12.120 --> 0:43:13.240
<v Speaker 8>And she's in Mount Washington.

0:43:14.040 --> 0:43:18.680
<v Speaker 2>To Mount Washington, it's the lapage. And she asked what

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:20.759
<v Speaker 2>time it was because she was supposed to be meeting

0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:21.320
<v Speaker 2>her boyfriend.

0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:26.239
<v Speaker 9>Yes, and they say five thirty right, which and then

0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:30.160
<v Speaker 9>back to Kelly's fabrication, So we make this phone call. Then,

0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.000
<v Speaker 9>according to Kelly, well, we make this phone I make

0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:37.560
<v Speaker 9>this phone call to quote unquote lure Anastasia out. Again,

0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:40.399
<v Speaker 9>there's so many things that it's hard to keep track

0:43:40.440 --> 0:43:42.680
<v Speaker 9>of them all because not only was this not a

0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:47.880
<v Speaker 9>phone called a lure Anastasia out, Anastasia already had plans.

0:43:47.480 --> 0:43:48.640
<v Speaker 8>With justin that day.

0:43:49.120 --> 0:43:52.279
<v Speaker 9>Her stepmom talked about it, friends talked about it. And

0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:56.080
<v Speaker 9>so then then Kelly says, after I quote unquote lure

0:43:56.120 --> 0:44:01.640
<v Speaker 9>her out, we go straight from Lenexa. We go straight

0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 9>from Lenexa to Dairy Queen and Independence, which she estimates

0:44:06.520 --> 0:44:09.680
<v Speaker 9>would take forty five minutes, maybe closer to thirty minutes

0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:10.319
<v Speaker 9>rush hour.

0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:12.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was Russi hour on a Wednesday.

0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:15.799
<v Speaker 9>So they get there at what five point fifteen five

0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:19.600
<v Speaker 9>point thirty according to Kelly's story, Again, Anastasia is still

0:44:19.600 --> 0:44:23.200
<v Speaker 9>in Mount Washington talking to the Lapages at that time.

0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:31.000
<v Speaker 9>So again Kelly's story is false. That also conflicts with

0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:36.879
<v Speaker 9>what Dawn Wright and Suliman Solid said, which was they

0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:40.200
<v Speaker 9>picked her up after dark. They picked up Anastagia up

0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:45.239
<v Speaker 9>after dark. And like what Nicole was just saying, we

0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:50.440
<v Speaker 9>know that Anastasia called Justin's apartment and talked to Justin.

0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:53.799
<v Speaker 9>So Kelly's story doesn't account for that because she says

0:44:53.800 --> 0:44:56.520
<v Speaker 9>we went straight from the gas station to the dairy Queen. Well,

0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 9>then how was Anastasia talking to Justin as a part

0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:04.239
<v Speaker 9>man if you went straight from dairy from straight from

0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:06.759
<v Speaker 9>the gas station to dairy queen with no stops?

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:10.360
<v Speaker 2>And I understand because I have questions about the call

0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:13.399
<v Speaker 2>that she made from the from the Phillip sixty six

0:45:13.440 --> 0:45:17.600
<v Speaker 2>station near her house, right, Like, it has never made

0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:23.360
<v Speaker 2>sense to me based on Anastasia's plan to meet Justin

0:45:23.600 --> 0:45:28.239
<v Speaker 2>at Mount Washington Cemetery, that she would have that they

0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:32.440
<v Speaker 2>would have needed Kelly to lure Anastasia to the Dairy Queen.

0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:35.839
<v Speaker 2>It's never made sense to me. I asked her about that,

0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.279
<v Speaker 2>and she was like, I don't know. All I know

0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.439
<v Speaker 2>is that I made a call and I spoke with Anastasia.

0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:46.360
<v Speaker 2>So then my mind goes to, Okay, well could Anastasia,

0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:50.040
<v Speaker 2>But then it messes with the timeframe. But could Anastasia

0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:54.360
<v Speaker 2>have called from the Dairy Queen and left that phone

0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:59.520
<v Speaker 2>number on Justin's answering machine which had been erased some

0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:02.839
<v Speaker 2>of those early messages were gone. Could they have called

0:46:02.880 --> 0:46:06.239
<v Speaker 2>the answering machine found out where Anastasia was because and

0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:07.960
<v Speaker 2>I have some of the trial or I don't know

0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:11.120
<v Speaker 2>if it's her deposition or the trial transcript, but you know,

0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:16.480
<v Speaker 2>she says that Anastasia believed that they were meeting at

0:46:16.480 --> 0:46:20.680
<v Speaker 2>the Dairy Queen. That might have been the secondary plan. Right,

0:46:21.000 --> 0:46:24.360
<v Speaker 2>The first plan I absolutely believe was Mount Washington.

0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Everyone knew it was Mount Washington, Betsy, Diane fran everyone

0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:30.839
<v Speaker 2>knew they.

0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:32.000
<v Speaker 1>Were meeting at Mount Washington.

0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:35.160
<v Speaker 2>I wonder, and it's because I have to ask questions,

0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:39.919
<v Speaker 2>but I wondered, did something change in that afternoon? Because

0:46:39.960 --> 0:46:44.080
<v Speaker 2>then I was asking myself, did Kelly assuming Kelly's telling

0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>the truth. Did Kelly call and speak with Anastasia before

0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Fran got home that day?

0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:51.960
<v Speaker 4>Okay, so they're luring her out to be alone somewhere

0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:54.319
<v Speaker 4>to kill her, but they changed the place where she's

0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:55.920
<v Speaker 4>supposed to be alone to kill her by going through

0:46:55.920 --> 0:46:56.760
<v Speaker 4>all these extra steps.

0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.279
<v Speaker 2>All I'm saying is I have to ask all these questions, right, yeah,

0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:03.640
<v Speaker 2>sure so? And then I looked at what everyone said

0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:05.759
<v Speaker 2>in terms of time, it seemed like friend got home

0:47:05.800 --> 0:47:09.080
<v Speaker 2>at four, So I don't think that Kelly could have

0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:14.120
<v Speaker 2>called before she got home. So then I'm like crossing

0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:17.279
<v Speaker 2>that off, you know, so, but I have to ask

0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the questions.

0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:19.760
<v Speaker 11>That's exactly how we work the case.

0:47:20.239 --> 0:47:23.279
<v Speaker 10>And just a thought on what you're saying is that

0:47:23.360 --> 0:47:26.959
<v Speaker 10>if the state didn't believe her story either, if they had, they.

0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.280
<v Speaker 11>Would wouldn't needed her to record the conversation with Byron.

0:47:31.680 --> 0:47:34.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, she definitely had credibility issues because she was

0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:38.960
<v Speaker 2>known to have lied, right, So this phone call has

0:47:39.080 --> 0:47:43.719
<v Speaker 2>never made sense to me. But maybe what happened was

0:47:43.840 --> 0:47:48.440
<v Speaker 2>what prosecutors alleged at trial, that Anastasia had paged Byron

0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:52.000
<v Speaker 2>from the dairy queen and that's the number that was

0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:56.280
<v Speaker 2>dialed for Kelly at the gas station. Again, law enforcement

0:47:56.440 --> 0:48:00.439
<v Speaker 2>never pulled those payphone records from the gas station and

0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:01.520
<v Speaker 2>the dairy queen.

0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:05.480
<v Speaker 9>When she gives that September twenty first statement to Kilgore,

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:09.960
<v Speaker 9>he says, well, when you told me in your initial

0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:13.720
<v Speaker 9>statement back in October of nineteen ninety seven, you seemed

0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:16.799
<v Speaker 9>pretty confident about that story. And then even a few

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:20.719
<v Speaker 9>days later, I took you out to ride around and

0:48:20.760 --> 0:48:23.880
<v Speaker 9>you took me on a You took me exactly, it

0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:25.600
<v Speaker 9>took me where you said you guys went, and you

0:48:25.600 --> 0:48:29.560
<v Speaker 9>seemed pretty confident about that. You even drew me a map, which,

0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:33.080
<v Speaker 9>as an aside, wasn't and still has never been produced.

0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:35.480
<v Speaker 9>We've never seen that map that Kelly drew in her

0:48:35.520 --> 0:48:39.160
<v Speaker 9>initial statement. And she says, well, I was so confident

0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:41.640
<v Speaker 9>because before we talked with you for the first time,

0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:45.560
<v Speaker 9>Byron took me back out there and drove me around.

0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:50.400
<v Speaker 9>Except that there was literally no time for that to

0:48:50.520 --> 0:48:53.840
<v Speaker 9>happen because she was with her grandma all day the

0:48:53.920 --> 0:48:56.720
<v Speaker 9>day that Anastasia's body was found on the twenty third

0:48:57.560 --> 0:49:00.839
<v Speaker 9>that evening, and she even admitted in one of her

0:49:01.280 --> 0:49:06.080
<v Speaker 9>statements that Byron's car was broken down, her mom and Evelyn,

0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:09.879
<v Speaker 9>Byron's mom had to give them rides everywhere. Evelyn had

0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:13.000
<v Speaker 9>given Byron a ride to the Moffat residence where they

0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:17.040
<v Speaker 9>hung out that evening of the twenty third, and then

0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.080
<v Speaker 9>on the morning of the twenty fourth, Debbie Moffatt gives

0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:24.600
<v Speaker 9>them a ride to the Jackson County Sheriff's Department to

0:49:24.680 --> 0:49:26.719
<v Speaker 9>give their statement to Kilgore.

0:49:26.840 --> 0:49:30.239
<v Speaker 8>So her story is just it never it.

0:49:30.200 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 9>Didn't make sense, and it shouldn't have made sense to

0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:36.000
<v Speaker 9>the Prosecutor's office and the Sheriff's department if they were

0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:37.960
<v Speaker 9>doing their job at the very beginning.

0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I reach out to Kelly with this question from Byron's

0:49:42.360 --> 0:49:45.279
<v Speaker 2>legal team. When did Byron actually have the time to

0:49:45.280 --> 0:49:47.920
<v Speaker 2>take her around to show her the area of Truman

0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:51.279
<v Speaker 2>Road and the I four thirty five. Kelly sends me

0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:56.239
<v Speaker 2>a voice message answering this question. She says, after Anastasia's

0:49:56.320 --> 0:49:59.040
<v Speaker 2>murder was reported on the news the night of October

0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:02.600
<v Speaker 2>twenty third, Byron drove her around so she could learn

0:50:02.640 --> 0:50:05.160
<v Speaker 2>the area in case they had to speak with police.

0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:07.759
<v Speaker 12>Noon we found out like on like the four or

0:50:07.800 --> 0:50:10.640
<v Speaker 12>five o'clock news, and then I came to your house

0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:13.719
<v Speaker 12>and stayed the night, and that's when we made it

0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:16.360
<v Speaker 12>a point to drive around and show me.

0:50:17.200 --> 0:50:18.640
<v Speaker 13>This is just so irritating.

0:50:18.680 --> 0:50:21.719
<v Speaker 12>I hate dealing with anything with him because he just

0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:26.240
<v Speaker 12>he's trying to rely on the fact that the investigation

0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:29.759
<v Speaker 12>was stupid and botched and they didn't do a good job.

0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:33.560
<v Speaker 12>He's trying to pick that apart and hoping to God

0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:37.239
<v Speaker 12>that something sticks. He throws anything against the wall and

0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:40.160
<v Speaker 12>sees it. He gets people fighting over these like little

0:50:40.239 --> 0:50:43.960
<v Speaker 12>tiny indiscretions and stuff so that you don't look at

0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:46.920
<v Speaker 12>the fact that he's fucking guilty as hell.

0:50:47.160 --> 0:50:50.360
<v Speaker 2>For the record, I was curious what was said about

0:50:50.560 --> 0:50:53.560
<v Speaker 2>where exactly Kelly and Byron spent the night of October

0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:58.120
<v Speaker 2>twenty third. At trial, Kelly said they spent the night

0:50:58.280 --> 0:51:01.799
<v Speaker 2>at Byron's mom's apartment. She said the next morning, her

0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:04.360
<v Speaker 2>mom picked them up from Byron's and took them to

0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:09.000
<v Speaker 2>the Sheriff's department to be interviewed. In Byron's first interview,

0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:12.560
<v Speaker 2>he said his mom dropped him and Kelly off at

0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:15.279
<v Speaker 2>her house that night because he had to go in

0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:18.919
<v Speaker 2>for a job interview that evening, and Kelly came with him.

0:51:19.640 --> 0:51:22.360
<v Speaker 2>No mention if they spent the night there though, So

0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:25.360
<v Speaker 2>did they go to Byron's house after the job interview

0:51:25.680 --> 0:51:29.239
<v Speaker 2>or did they stay at Kelly's. Who knows where they

0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:32.440
<v Speaker 2>spent the night, and if there had been time, like

0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Kelly said, for Byron to show her around Truman Roade

0:51:35.800 --> 0:51:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and the I four thirty five that night. Back to

0:51:39.760 --> 0:51:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Nicole in our.

0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:45.600
<v Speaker 10>Interview, Kelly's not told the same story, not one time now,

0:51:45.680 --> 0:51:46.720
<v Speaker 10>not even for the state.

0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:50.040
<v Speaker 1>And there have been big differences.

0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:53.800
<v Speaker 10>I mean, we're not talking about minor changes or forgetfulness.

0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:57.120
<v Speaker 10>There are just big differences in each of her stories

0:51:57.280 --> 0:51:58.239
<v Speaker 10>that's unaccounted for.

0:51:58.320 --> 0:51:59.520
<v Speaker 1>The state didn't account for them.

0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:03.280
<v Speaker 10>And so for the state for the state to say,

0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:06.960
<v Speaker 10>we have looked into this again and we decided not

0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:10.280
<v Speaker 10>to take the case because Kelly Moffett stands by her story.

0:52:10.360 --> 0:52:12.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, tell us which story that is.

0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:18.919
<v Speaker 2>Nicole is referring to hearing former Jackson County Prosecutor Jean

0:52:19.000 --> 0:52:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Peters Baker in episode eleven, here's Quinn.

0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:24.040
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

0:52:24.160 --> 0:52:27.080
<v Speaker 4>When I heard Jean Peters Baker on the podcast say

0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:30.239
<v Speaker 4>we have done the work, I wanted to throw my

0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:32.959
<v Speaker 4>headphones off. They did not do the work. They didn't

0:52:32.960 --> 0:52:36.120
<v Speaker 4>even read the work that we gave them.

0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:40.160
<v Speaker 6>In our presentation. I promise you all they did was

0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:44.200
<v Speaker 6>read the trial transcript and call Kelly and ask her,

0:52:44.920 --> 0:52:47.480
<v Speaker 6>if we called you as a witness again, would you

0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:51.200
<v Speaker 6>say the same thing. And she said yes over the telephone,

0:52:51.440 --> 0:52:52.439
<v Speaker 6>is what she told them.

0:52:52.560 --> 0:52:54.680
<v Speaker 13>Because what they want is a perfect case.

0:52:54.960 --> 0:52:58.279
<v Speaker 4>They want the DNA to exclude the client, they want

0:52:58.320 --> 0:53:01.520
<v Speaker 4>the DNA to match somebody else, they want a recantation

0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:02.640
<v Speaker 4>from the eyewitness.

0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:04.520
<v Speaker 11>They want all this, you.

0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:07.680
<v Speaker 13>Know, perfect stuff. And if all of those things are true,

0:53:08.400 --> 0:53:10.680
<v Speaker 13>someone never would have gotten convicted in the first place.

0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:13.759
<v Speaker 13>I mean, they're looking for the perfect case and it's

0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:15.120
<v Speaker 13>never going to happen.

0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:19.240
<v Speaker 6>But the only two things they told us to justify

0:53:19.320 --> 0:53:23.960
<v Speaker 6>their decision not to reopen this case was number one,

0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:29.200
<v Speaker 6>that Kelly had not recanted, and number two, Kelly had

0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:33.040
<v Speaker 6>not recanded, you know, And so you know, and I

0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:36.680
<v Speaker 6>was angry at this meeting, and they could probably tell it.

0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:39.040
<v Speaker 6>But at the end of it, I said, so you

0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:44.720
<v Speaker 6>have effectively made Kelly Moffatt the gatekeeper for your conviction

0:53:44.880 --> 0:53:50.040
<v Speaker 6>integrity unit. Kelly Moffatt has told you not to proceed

0:53:50.120 --> 0:53:52.560
<v Speaker 6>on this, and you're not proceeding on this. That is

0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:55.440
<v Speaker 6>essentially what they said, and so when you asked me

0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:58.600
<v Speaker 6>my reaction to your podcast podcast is great, but that

0:53:58.719 --> 0:54:00.440
<v Speaker 6>episode really me.

0:54:14.920 --> 0:54:19.200
<v Speaker 2>I continue my conversation with Byron's legal team. A quick reminder,

0:54:19.480 --> 0:54:23.520
<v Speaker 2>this interview took place the day after my interview with Kelly.

0:54:24.560 --> 0:54:25.320
<v Speaker 1>I asked her.

0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Fourteen pages of questions. A lot of it she couldn't

0:54:30.640 --> 0:54:34.600
<v Speaker 2>remember because it's been But to be fair, it's been twenty.

0:54:34.360 --> 0:54:38.520
<v Speaker 6>Something years, right, says, if you always tell the truth,

0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:40.040
<v Speaker 6>you don't have to remember anything.

0:54:40.160 --> 0:54:47.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, she remembers that Byron did it. One of

0:54:47.560 --> 0:54:49.799
<v Speaker 2>the things that struck me that I had forgotten was

0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:52.520
<v Speaker 2>that at trials she did not remember going to Abraham's.

0:54:53.600 --> 0:54:55.879
<v Speaker 2>And even the prosecutor said, are you sure you didn't

0:54:55.920 --> 0:55:00.879
<v Speaker 2>stop anywhere else, you know, after the killing before going home,

0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:01.600
<v Speaker 2>and she was like.

0:55:01.600 --> 0:55:04.920
<v Speaker 1>No, not that I remember. So whatever that means.

0:55:05.120 --> 0:55:07.040
<v Speaker 2>Back in two thousand and two, at the trial, she

0:55:07.080 --> 0:55:10.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams. And the prosecution very

0:55:10.239 --> 0:55:13.279
<v Speaker 2>much believes that they stopped at Abraham's, right, correct, So,

0:55:14.000 --> 0:55:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not making her case for her. I'm just

0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:19.120
<v Speaker 2>saying there could be some things that she doesn't remember.

0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:21.680
<v Speaker 2>When she didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams back in

0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:22.480
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and two.

0:55:22.960 --> 0:55:24.719
<v Speaker 9>Well, she didn't, and she didn't remember it in two

0:55:24.800 --> 0:55:28.799
<v Speaker 9>thousand when she gave her statement, she's in her fabrication.

0:55:29.440 --> 0:55:32.080
<v Speaker 2>I asked her, did you guys go back to the house.

0:55:32.840 --> 0:55:36.960
<v Speaker 2>She said, I don't know, I don't remember. So she

0:55:37.800 --> 0:55:40.680
<v Speaker 2>left that open to the possibility that they may have

0:55:40.760 --> 0:55:41.919
<v Speaker 2>gone back to the house.

0:55:42.040 --> 0:55:43.719
<v Speaker 6>She knew she would do that. Yeah, of course she

0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:46.880
<v Speaker 6>has to. Now, she has to change her story to

0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:47.439
<v Speaker 6>fit the fact.

0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:51.319
<v Speaker 1>Couldn't it be drug brain? Couldn't it be? I mean,

0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:54.160
<v Speaker 1>couldn't that have messed up some of her memory?

0:55:54.640 --> 0:55:59.120
<v Speaker 4>It doesn't matter because the external facts still show that

0:55:59.239 --> 0:56:01.040
<v Speaker 4>Kelly Moffett isn't being truthful.

0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:02.240
<v Speaker 11>I mean, we can sit.

0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:05.400
<v Speaker 4>Here and talk about drug brain and memory and all

0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:09.000
<v Speaker 4>sorts of scientific studies about, you know, how memory changes

0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:13.160
<v Speaker 4>and what happens. But the fact is it can't be

0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.719
<v Speaker 4>true because of these other people who don't have a

0:56:16.760 --> 0:56:22.480
<v Speaker 4>stake in this saw Kelly at different times. They saw antesthesia,

0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.120
<v Speaker 4>the dairy queen, they saw anaesthesia, the cemetery.

0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:26.160
<v Speaker 11>Fact like, all of these.

0:56:26.040 --> 0:56:30.040
<v Speaker 4>External witnesses disprove Kelly's story.

0:56:30.120 --> 0:56:31.319
<v Speaker 11>So I'm saying that we.

0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Can you know, some people wrote in talking about memory

0:56:34.120 --> 0:56:37.560
<v Speaker 2>loss and how that can happen as a result of trauma,

0:56:38.120 --> 0:56:39.600
<v Speaker 2>not just with drug use.

0:56:40.280 --> 0:56:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Back to Quinn, and.

0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:45.800
<v Speaker 4>I have empathy for Kelly too. And in this story,

0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:47.319
<v Speaker 4>Kelly gets to be.

0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:50.600
<v Speaker 11>The hero to Fran and Emma and.

0:56:50.520 --> 0:56:53.879
<v Speaker 4>Anastasia and the Whipwell's Hugan family. She gets to bring

0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:58.720
<v Speaker 4>them closure. You know, listening to the podcast, I cried

0:56:58.920 --> 0:57:03.280
<v Speaker 4>listening to and Emma talk they lost someone really special

0:57:03.480 --> 0:57:05.600
<v Speaker 4>and really important to them, and.

0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:06.880
<v Speaker 11>Kelly gets to be their hero.

0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:10.359
<v Speaker 4>I get that, you know, Kelly getting to play the hero,

0:57:10.480 --> 0:57:15.400
<v Speaker 4>and this story is really compelling, and she's made that part.

0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:16.200
<v Speaker 11>Of who she is.

0:57:16.960 --> 0:57:20.800
<v Speaker 4>And she has the gratitude of the Whipple's Hugan family

0:57:20.840 --> 0:57:22.840
<v Speaker 4>and the girls for providing them closure.

0:57:25.520 --> 0:57:27.840
<v Speaker 11>It's I get why she did that, you know.

0:57:27.960 --> 0:57:31.440
<v Speaker 4>She yes, she had to implicate herself to tell this story,

0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.760
<v Speaker 4>but she was never at any risk, not ever. She

0:57:34.840 --> 0:57:38.040
<v Speaker 4>came forward with an attorney who made an immunity deal

0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:40.840
<v Speaker 4>for her before she even said one word on the

0:57:40.880 --> 0:57:42.720
<v Speaker 4>record that would implicate herself.

0:57:42.920 --> 0:57:45.880
<v Speaker 11>She was never at any risk ever, not at any time.

0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:50.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she says that she was basically made to come forward.

0:57:50.360 --> 0:57:54.000
<v Speaker 2>She was, and that when she came forward there was

0:57:54.360 --> 0:57:57.160
<v Speaker 2>no deal, no immunity promised.

0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:58.920
<v Speaker 1>She had no idea what was going to happen.

0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:03.240
<v Speaker 11>To Yes, that's not true, that's a lie.

0:58:03.400 --> 0:58:05.760
<v Speaker 2>When she came over to the counselor and then the

0:58:05.800 --> 0:58:10.720
<v Speaker 2>counselor reached out to an attorney and I mean the

0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:13.680
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor's office, she said at that point there was no deal.

0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:16.360
<v Speaker 6>The document showed the deal was on the table before

0:58:16.400 --> 0:58:19.840
<v Speaker 6>she made any statements to the police. The counselor is

0:58:19.880 --> 0:58:23.360
<v Speaker 6>what locked in her story. The councilor called the prosecutor

0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:28.240
<v Speaker 6>and essentially turned her in, forced her to tell a story,

0:58:28.840 --> 0:58:31.280
<v Speaker 6>and then this is the story that she developed off

0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:31.840
<v Speaker 6>the cuff.

0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I think what Kelly said is that when she told

0:58:34.920 --> 0:58:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the counselor or was forced to tell the counselor, and

0:58:38.720 --> 0:58:40.880
<v Speaker 2>the counselor said she was going to go contact the

0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:44.360
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor's office about it, Kelly had no idea what was

0:58:44.400 --> 0:58:47.439
<v Speaker 2>going to happen to her. She had no idea at

0:58:47.480 --> 0:58:53.600
<v Speaker 2>that point she would eventually be given immunity. Right, let's

0:58:53.600 --> 0:58:56.320
<v Speaker 2>please talk about Anastasia's clothes and whether or not she

0:58:56.440 --> 0:58:58.680
<v Speaker 2>might have gone home. I know you very much, believe

0:58:58.760 --> 0:59:02.680
<v Speaker 2>she went home. This is my question about it if

0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:09.200
<v Speaker 2>we believe Fran's description of what Anastasia was wearing when

0:59:09.240 --> 0:59:12.360
<v Speaker 2>she left the house. And I'm not supposed to give

0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:16.040
<v Speaker 2>my opinions on anything, but I do believe that they

0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:19.320
<v Speaker 2>had such a detailed conversation about the clothes. I do

0:59:19.440 --> 0:59:23.200
<v Speaker 2>believe Fran knows what Anastasia was wearing that day. Fran

0:59:23.280 --> 0:59:26.000
<v Speaker 2>seems very believable, and not just in the podcast where

0:59:26.000 --> 0:59:28.720
<v Speaker 2>she gave a lot of details about it, but she

0:59:28.800 --> 0:59:32.400
<v Speaker 2>seemed pretty clear in her early interviews that this is

0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:36.280
<v Speaker 2>what Anastasia was wearing. So for Anastasia to leave the house,

0:59:36.360 --> 0:59:39.320
<v Speaker 2>let's just call it black clothes. She leaves the house

0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:43.200
<v Speaker 2>in black clothes. In order for Dawn Wright to see

0:59:43.240 --> 0:59:46.440
<v Speaker 2>her in blue jeans and the socks and sandals, Anastasia

0:59:46.440 --> 0:59:49.640
<v Speaker 2>would have had to go home before going to the

0:59:49.720 --> 0:59:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Dairy Queen. So that's one change to then be at

0:59:53.440 --> 0:59:56.280
<v Speaker 2>the Dairy Queen in the blue jeans, to then go

0:59:56.440 --> 0:59:59.520
<v Speaker 2>home again, to change out of the blue jeans into

0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:01.800
<v Speaker 2>the black clothes, to then later be killed in the

1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:06.600
<v Speaker 2>black clothes. Please try to explain to me the whole

1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:08.400
<v Speaker 2>thing is like did in a Stagia go home once,

1:00:08.480 --> 1:00:10.240
<v Speaker 2>it would have meant she went home twice.

1:00:11.000 --> 1:00:16.760
<v Speaker 9>So I don't think and this is all respect to Fran,

1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:19.919
<v Speaker 9>and you know, she was a fifteen year old who

1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:23.520
<v Speaker 9>just lost her sister. She didn't give a statement though,

1:00:23.880 --> 1:00:27.800
<v Speaker 9>for five days. I believe her first statement was October

1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:31.080
<v Speaker 9>twenty eighth. By that point in time, everybody knew what

1:00:31.200 --> 1:00:33.640
<v Speaker 9>Anastasia was wearing when she was found.

1:00:34.440 --> 1:00:38.960
<v Speaker 8>So I don't know that necessarily.

1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:44.480
<v Speaker 9>Fran's insistence of what she remembered Anastasia wearing wasn't somehow

1:00:44.560 --> 1:00:48.760
<v Speaker 9>muddled by Bob telling her what she was wearing or

1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:49.800
<v Speaker 9>what she was found in.

1:00:49.960 --> 1:00:52.640
<v Speaker 1>But we don't know that. We don't know that someone

1:00:52.680 --> 1:00:53.160
<v Speaker 1>told her.

1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:58.120
<v Speaker 9>We don't know, but you can imagine that within a

1:00:58.200 --> 1:01:01.439
<v Speaker 9>small family there and having just on, you know that.

1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:04.200
<v Speaker 8>The trauma of what's going on.

1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:06.480
<v Speaker 9>So I mean they were I think that it's pretty

1:01:06.480 --> 1:01:09.760
<v Speaker 9>clear that they were communicating with each other about how

1:01:09.800 --> 1:01:11.760
<v Speaker 9>she was found. But I think another part of that

1:01:11.960 --> 1:01:14.720
<v Speaker 9>is you have two competing statements here. You have what

1:01:14.840 --> 1:01:18.680
<v Speaker 9>Fran believes she was wearing and what Dawn says she

1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:23.280
<v Speaker 9>was wearing. Fran saw Anastasia before she left for maybe

1:01:23.520 --> 1:01:30.760
<v Speaker 9>fifteen minutes, whereas Dawn was with Anastasia for an hour

1:01:31.240 --> 1:01:35.120
<v Speaker 9>to an hour and a half before she left, so

1:01:35.160 --> 1:01:39.240
<v Speaker 9>she had simply more time to observe what she was

1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:44.240
<v Speaker 9>wearing while she was at that Dairy Queen. And if

1:01:45.240 --> 1:01:49.800
<v Speaker 9>Anastasia was wearing what Fran said she was wearing, there

1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:53.760
<v Speaker 9>would have been blood on those clothes and in that

1:01:53.960 --> 1:01:57.440
<v Speaker 9>underwear and on that pad at some point by the

1:01:57.480 --> 1:02:00.920
<v Speaker 9>time she was found. That when Anna Stage is found,

1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:07.160
<v Speaker 9>she's wearing clean everything. But because Dawn says that she

1:02:07.480 --> 1:02:10.640
<v Speaker 9>started her period in the Dairy Queen, we know that

1:02:10.640 --> 1:02:13.680
<v Speaker 9>that means that whatever she was wearing it the Dairy

1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:17.280
<v Speaker 9>Queen would have had blood on it somewhere, and none

1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:18.080
<v Speaker 9>of that was found.

1:02:18.640 --> 1:02:21.920
<v Speaker 4>And I'd just like to point out that if Detective

1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:29.840
<v Speaker 4>Kilgore had asked Solomon Suelatt for security footage, Solomon Seuelatt

1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:32.720
<v Speaker 4>had that and was ready to provide it to the police,

1:02:33.600 --> 1:02:35.800
<v Speaker 4>was never asked for it, So we would know all

1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:38.280
<v Speaker 4>of this for sure, we would know the timeline for sure,

1:02:38.560 --> 1:02:41.800
<v Speaker 4>we would know what Anastasia was wearing for sure. If

1:02:41.920 --> 1:02:47.120
<v Speaker 4>Kilgore had just bothered to ask if Solomon Suett had security.

1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:49.080
<v Speaker 1>Footage, does that video still exist.

1:02:49.320 --> 1:02:54.960
<v Speaker 4>No, I've spoken to mister Seuett and he got rid

1:02:54.960 --> 1:02:56.040
<v Speaker 4>of it a long time ago.

1:02:56.080 --> 1:02:57.400
<v Speaker 11>The Dairy Queen wasn't a fire.

1:02:57.960 --> 1:03:00.360
<v Speaker 13>He eventually sold it to some other business.

1:03:00.480 --> 1:03:04.080
<v Speaker 2>It's now an because so much has been said about

1:03:04.160 --> 1:03:07.560
<v Speaker 2>Sergeant Gary Kilgore and what he did and didn't do

1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:11.439
<v Speaker 2>during his investigation. I reached back out to him again

1:03:11.520 --> 1:03:13.640
<v Speaker 2>to see if he's been listening and if he has

1:03:13.720 --> 1:03:15.880
<v Speaker 2>anything he wants to say.

1:03:16.360 --> 1:03:20.480
<v Speaker 1>He has not returned my calls. Here's Sean.

1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:25.560
<v Speaker 6>So, at the time that Fran made these observations, she

1:03:25.720 --> 1:03:28.240
<v Speaker 6>did not know that her sister was going to be

1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:31.720
<v Speaker 6>murdered that night. And memory is very malleable, and so

1:03:31.840 --> 1:03:35.960
<v Speaker 6>I think Fran is remembering what she usually saw Anastasia

1:03:36.040 --> 1:03:41.400
<v Speaker 6>where the other piece of it is the purse or

1:03:41.440 --> 1:03:46.480
<v Speaker 6>the wallet. And how does don Wright know to describe

1:03:46.520 --> 1:03:52.000
<v Speaker 6>a wallet that Bob Whitbolsfugen finds that evening, you know,

1:03:52.560 --> 1:03:57.480
<v Speaker 6>on the stairway at their home, and then he texts

1:03:57.520 --> 1:04:01.280
<v Speaker 6>a picture of it, and the picture as an email

1:04:01.680 --> 1:04:03.240
<v Speaker 6>right different wall.

1:04:03.480 --> 1:04:08.760
<v Speaker 11>I'm not sure it is though as a t okay, okay, gotcha.

1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:13.280
<v Speaker 6>Okay, but yeah, but there is the purse, yeah, and That's.

1:04:13.120 --> 1:04:17.560
<v Speaker 10>Also something that I think wasn't pointed out in the

1:04:18.240 --> 1:04:21.920
<v Speaker 10>podcast or may none of the purse that Don describes

1:04:22.320 --> 1:04:26.880
<v Speaker 10>is like a wallet on a long strap, and it's

1:04:26.960 --> 1:04:31.600
<v Speaker 10>not an usual size purse. And then Bob sends a

1:04:31.680 --> 1:04:35.000
<v Speaker 10>picture of that type of purse exactly.

1:04:35.320 --> 1:04:38.280
<v Speaker 2>For the record, in episode two, we do share Don

1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:42.160
<v Speaker 2>Wright's exact description of the purse. She said she saw

1:04:42.240 --> 1:04:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia carrying that night. Let me ask you a couple

1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:48.760
<v Speaker 2>of follow up questions. Yeah, so Anastasia was found with

1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:51.840
<v Speaker 2>three dollars and sixty five cents in her pants pocket.

1:04:52.520 --> 1:04:54.880
<v Speaker 2>If she had that money on her, she did have

1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:56.640
<v Speaker 2>that money on her, Why would that not be in

1:04:56.680 --> 1:04:59.360
<v Speaker 2>her purse or wallet? If she was carrying something that.

1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:03.520
<v Speaker 4>Night, changed pants and that was money that was in

1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:08.200
<v Speaker 4>her pants before she put them on, and she the anxiety.

1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:10.440
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, she went home and left the purse left.

1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:16.240
<v Speaker 10>She typically didn't carry it purse, right, she typically didn't

1:05:16.240 --> 1:05:16.880
<v Speaker 10>carry a purse.

1:05:17.160 --> 1:05:19.400
<v Speaker 4>Oh see, I think I think I call that magic

1:05:19.480 --> 1:05:21.160
<v Speaker 4>money when you put your coat on that you haven't

1:05:21.160 --> 1:05:23.600
<v Speaker 4>worn since last fall and you find three bucks in

1:05:23.600 --> 1:05:23.960
<v Speaker 4>the pocket.

1:05:24.000 --> 1:05:25.840
<v Speaker 1>Right, But we don't know, I mean, that's a I

1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:26.480
<v Speaker 1>don't know it's.

1:05:26.360 --> 1:05:30.720
<v Speaker 11>Just Ya's al anymore. That's all. There are multiple explanations

1:05:30.760 --> 1:05:31.000
<v Speaker 11>for it.

1:05:31.120 --> 1:05:33.720
<v Speaker 1>It just yea and in terms of memory.

1:05:34.200 --> 1:05:38.000
<v Speaker 2>So one could make the argument that down right, I mean,

1:05:38.040 --> 1:05:40.360
<v Speaker 2>as we know, I witness testimony is.

1:05:40.640 --> 1:05:48.760
<v Speaker 1>Often wrong, and she could have been wrong about Anastasia's clothes.

1:05:49.080 --> 1:05:50.600
<v Speaker 11>Slomon Sala doesn't think so.

1:05:51.960 --> 1:05:53.680
<v Speaker 1>He doesn't describe what she's wearing.

1:05:54.200 --> 1:05:57.360
<v Speaker 4>No, but he said that he was there when down

1:05:57.560 --> 1:05:59.680
<v Speaker 4>was describing what she was wearing, and he didn't have

1:06:00.400 --> 1:06:02.360
<v Speaker 4>any qualms or quibbles with it.

1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:04.200
<v Speaker 8>This is coming from a conversation. Yeah.

1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:07.600
<v Speaker 4>Sorry, I interviewed Solomons a lot separately, So this is

1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:10.040
<v Speaker 4>stuff that you would not have been privy to yet

1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:13.520
<v Speaker 4>because it just recently happened. He backs Solomon's all that

1:06:13.600 --> 1:06:16.680
<v Speaker 4>backs up down right and says that whatever Dawn said

1:06:16.720 --> 1:06:18.880
<v Speaker 4>Anastasia was wearing is what.

1:06:18.760 --> 1:06:19.400
<v Speaker 1>She was wearing.

1:06:20.280 --> 1:06:23.160
<v Speaker 9>But you're you're correct that, I mean, of course, anybody

1:06:23.160 --> 1:06:24.280
<v Speaker 9>could be wrong about anything.

1:06:24.320 --> 1:06:27.720
<v Speaker 8>When we're talking about I witness say, you know, yeah, things.

1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:30.800
<v Speaker 9>That's why we go back to what she was with

1:06:30.840 --> 1:06:33.640
<v Speaker 9>her for longer than anybody else that night. She had

1:06:34.000 --> 1:06:35.920
<v Speaker 9>more of a chance to see her and what she

1:06:36.120 --> 1:06:40.480
<v Speaker 9>was wearing. And take that in and remember it. And

1:06:40.960 --> 1:06:43.160
<v Speaker 9>no reason to lie, no reason to lie.

1:06:43.440 --> 1:06:48.600
<v Speaker 6>And yeah, yeah, and socks with sandals is really specific

1:06:49.800 --> 1:06:53.440
<v Speaker 6>as opposed to she was wearing what she usually wore.

1:06:53.680 --> 1:06:57.760
<v Speaker 2>You know, which begs the question, isn't it odd that

1:06:57.880 --> 1:07:03.040
<v Speaker 2>on this particular Dayastasia was supposedly seen wearing something people

1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:07.600
<v Speaker 2>close to her said she never wore. Also, she was

1:07:07.640 --> 1:07:10.560
<v Speaker 2>seen caring a purse, which her friends and family said

1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:15.240
<v Speaker 2>she would never do. Why would Anastasia be seen in

1:07:15.360 --> 1:07:20.000
<v Speaker 2>clothes so out of character for her? Also, they say,

1:07:20.040 --> 1:07:22.760
<v Speaker 2>don Wright has no reason to lie. It might not

1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:27.560
<v Speaker 2>have been a lie, just an honest mistake. Also, Fran

1:07:28.240 --> 1:07:29.560
<v Speaker 2>has no reason to lie.

1:07:30.200 --> 1:07:30.400
<v Speaker 7>Right.

1:07:31.880 --> 1:07:33.920
<v Speaker 1>Fran was in that interview.

1:07:33.520 --> 1:07:37.440
<v Speaker 2>On ten twenty eight, very specific also about the black bra.

1:07:38.160 --> 1:07:40.760
<v Speaker 1>You know, she they had a conversation about clothes.

1:07:40.800 --> 1:07:43.800
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just like she saw Anastasia leave in these

1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:47.160
<v Speaker 2>clothes and there was no they actually had a conversation

1:07:47.400 --> 1:07:51.480
<v Speaker 2>about borrowing and like, so what do you make of that?

1:07:51.720 --> 1:07:53.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think it's a little bit more than

1:07:53.640 --> 1:07:55.000
<v Speaker 1>just she.

1:07:54.880 --> 1:07:58.160
<v Speaker 2>May or friend may have been incorrect, because it's what

1:07:58.240 --> 1:08:01.040
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia often wore. They talked, they talked, it seems like

1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:01.840
<v Speaker 2>they talked about it.

1:08:01.880 --> 1:08:04.600
<v Speaker 4>They probably did have an argument, which is why Anastasa

1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:08.000
<v Speaker 4>settled on socks with sandals instead of France Doc Martins

1:08:08.040 --> 1:08:08.600
<v Speaker 4>at that time.

1:08:09.040 --> 1:08:10.840
<v Speaker 6>And I could see later in the evening when she

1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:13.320
<v Speaker 6>went out a second time that her feet were probably cold.

1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:16.240
<v Speaker 11>Her sister wasn't there to argue anymore.

1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:18.559
<v Speaker 4>So you could take her sister's Doc Martens, and her

1:08:18.560 --> 1:08:20.040
<v Speaker 4>sister wasn't there to fight her about it.

1:08:20.120 --> 1:08:22.760
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about the pad versus tampon thing for

1:08:22.800 --> 1:08:26.439
<v Speaker 2>a second, because as we know, don Wright first said

1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:29.040
<v Speaker 2>it was a pad, then at trial she changed it

1:08:29.080 --> 1:08:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to a tampon. Kilgore found a box of tampons in

1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia's room. One could deduce I'm not saying I'm right,

1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:43.320
<v Speaker 2>but one could deduce that that's what Anastasia used. So

1:08:45.320 --> 1:08:49.080
<v Speaker 2>how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon? How

1:08:49.120 --> 1:08:50.160
<v Speaker 2>did she end up in a pad?

1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:53.920
<v Speaker 7>She went home?

1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:10.879
<v Speaker 2>So how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon?

1:09:11.960 --> 1:09:13.120
<v Speaker 2>How to chand up in a pad?

1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:16.920
<v Speaker 8>She went home?

1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:19.960
<v Speaker 1>But if that's not what she normally used.

1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:21.240
<v Speaker 11>Why and why would you change?

1:09:21.479 --> 1:09:23.479
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know if you like once you

1:09:23.960 --> 1:09:27.240
<v Speaker 2>sorry very rapid, but once you put one in, you

1:09:27.240 --> 1:09:28.519
<v Speaker 2>don't need to change it.

1:09:28.640 --> 1:09:29.160
<v Speaker 1>You don't have to.

1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:32.360
<v Speaker 4>Solomon saw That said that when he went in to

1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:35.200
<v Speaker 4>change the trash in the employee bathroom, because that's when

1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:38.839
<v Speaker 4>the Anastasia used uh, there was a you know, tampon

1:09:39.439 --> 1:09:42.960
<v Speaker 4>trash in the garbage can, and there was still blood

1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:48.760
<v Speaker 4>in the toilet, which means that Anastasia is actively bleeding.

1:09:48.360 --> 1:09:49.400
<v Speaker 11>At this point.

1:09:49.600 --> 1:09:53.360
<v Speaker 4>No matter what she was wearing, there should be some

1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:56.679
<v Speaker 4>blood on it. So at some point she puts something

1:09:56.800 --> 1:10:01.960
<v Speaker 4>clean on. And women know, periods unpredictable. Your flow can

1:10:02.040 --> 1:10:06.960
<v Speaker 4>be heavy and light, depending on the second of the

1:10:07.080 --> 1:10:08.920
<v Speaker 4>day and which direction the wind's blowing.

1:10:09.400 --> 1:10:10.679
<v Speaker 1>Okay, let me ask you this question.

1:10:10.840 --> 1:10:13.720
<v Speaker 2>As I mean, as you said in a period can

1:10:13.760 --> 1:10:16.400
<v Speaker 2>start and stop, especially when in the first few years

1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:21.479
<v Speaker 2>they're very sporadic in the beginning. My question is if

1:10:22.280 --> 1:10:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia went from the dairy Queen in a pad just

1:10:26.560 --> 1:10:29.479
<v Speaker 2>for the sake of argument in a pad, to Mount

1:10:29.560 --> 1:10:33.120
<v Speaker 2>Washington and then to Lincoln where she was killed, there

1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:36.519
<v Speaker 2>would be less time potentially for there to be anything

1:10:36.600 --> 1:10:40.760
<v Speaker 2>on that pad. If she went home, changed into a

1:10:40.800 --> 1:10:48.000
<v Speaker 2>pad and then was killed hours potentially hours later, wouldn't

1:10:48.000 --> 1:10:50.599
<v Speaker 2>there be a greater likelihood that something would have ended

1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:54.240
<v Speaker 2>up on that pad after that many hours of having.

1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:58.200
<v Speaker 8>On there was no blood. There was no blood in

1:10:58.240 --> 1:10:59.360
<v Speaker 8>her underwear either.

1:11:00.240 --> 1:11:05.559
<v Speaker 9>And so if she went straight from Mount Washington, I

1:11:05.600 --> 1:11:10.760
<v Speaker 9>mean straight from Dairy Queen, Mount Washington Lincoln Cemetery, even

1:11:10.800 --> 1:11:13.760
<v Speaker 9>if the pad was clean and there wasn't an opportunity

1:11:14.320 --> 1:11:16.479
<v Speaker 9>for her to bleed onto that, there still would have

1:11:16.520 --> 1:11:19.760
<v Speaker 9>been blood on her underwear from when she started her

1:11:19.840 --> 1:11:22.280
<v Speaker 9>period and needed a product.

1:11:22.600 --> 1:11:24.160
<v Speaker 1>We're getting very intimate with each other.

1:11:24.560 --> 1:11:29.080
<v Speaker 2>A woman can feel her period coming on before anything

1:11:29.560 --> 1:11:32.599
<v Speaker 2>hits underwear. She could have gone. She could have said,

1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:35.080
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting my period, do you have anything? Gone to

1:11:35.160 --> 1:11:38.639
<v Speaker 2>the bathroom. She could have sat down and stuff could

1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:41.599
<v Speaker 2>have come into the toilet and nothing ever ended up

1:11:41.720 --> 1:11:43.040
<v Speaker 2>ending up on her underwear.

1:11:43.080 --> 1:11:45.519
<v Speaker 1>It is a possibility. I think it's.

1:11:45.360 --> 1:11:49.360
<v Speaker 11>A that's a stretch. That's a real stretch.

1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:52.160
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I think he's actively bleeding into the toilet,

1:11:52.240 --> 1:11:55.680
<v Speaker 4>such as the male manager of the restaurant notices that

1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.360
<v Speaker 4>there's blood in the toilet and tampon trash in the

1:11:58.400 --> 1:11:59.080
<v Speaker 4>trash can.

1:12:00.479 --> 1:12:02.320
<v Speaker 11>There's probably blood on her underwear.

1:12:02.360 --> 1:12:05.160
<v Speaker 9>Plus it would have I think that they did. In

1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:09.360
<v Speaker 9>her autopsy, Doctor Young did find menstrual blood in her vagina.

1:12:09.439 --> 1:12:11.479
<v Speaker 8>Still right and so right.

1:12:11.439 --> 1:12:14.400
<v Speaker 4>It's more plausible that she cleaned herself up and that

1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:20.880
<v Speaker 4>after the initial period started that it slowed down, or

1:12:20.920 --> 1:12:24.600
<v Speaker 4>that she just wasn't upright as long as we thought

1:12:24.960 --> 1:12:27.720
<v Speaker 4>between the times she returned home and the time that

1:12:28.040 --> 1:12:31.080
<v Speaker 4>she was found over the time that she died in

1:12:31.080 --> 1:12:31.639
<v Speaker 4>the cemetery.

1:12:32.000 --> 1:12:34.200
<v Speaker 11>Yeah, or if if she died in the cemetery at all,

1:12:34.280 --> 1:12:34.680
<v Speaker 11>I don't know.

1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:40.080
<v Speaker 2>But again, if she went home, put on different clothes,

1:12:40.120 --> 1:12:43.040
<v Speaker 2>and changed from a tampon to a pad, then was

1:12:43.120 --> 1:12:48.320
<v Speaker 2>killed hours later, why wasn't there anything on the pad?

1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:54.200
<v Speaker 2>More hours equals more time to bleed? Right, let me

1:12:54.200 --> 1:12:56.439
<v Speaker 2>ask you, following up on a couple of things you

1:12:56.520 --> 1:13:02.120
<v Speaker 2>just said. So because I know that the Kansas City

1:13:02.160 --> 1:13:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Police crime lab came back and said that there is

1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:06.760
<v Speaker 2>a possibility that she may have been lying down when

1:13:06.800 --> 1:13:09.600
<v Speaker 2>she was killed. How do you explain a piece of

1:13:09.640 --> 1:13:12.599
<v Speaker 2>her skull being up to a couple feet away.

1:13:13.439 --> 1:13:19.240
<v Speaker 9>I think that I mean a gunshot wound. There's a

1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:22.040
<v Speaker 9>lot of energy that goes into it, and especially if

1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:25.799
<v Speaker 9>you've got if someone's head is laying on the ground

1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:30.160
<v Speaker 9>to reflect that energy back. I don't think it's inconceivable

1:13:30.240 --> 1:13:35.120
<v Speaker 9>that it could have deflected part of her skull off

1:13:35.120 --> 1:13:38.439
<v Speaker 9>of the ground and out from underneath her head.

1:13:38.960 --> 1:13:40.759
<v Speaker 11>Energy has neither created nor destroyed.

1:13:40.800 --> 1:13:43.439
<v Speaker 4>We know this because of science, and so when it

1:13:43.479 --> 1:13:47.439
<v Speaker 4>is perfectly reasonable to assume that her head came off

1:13:47.520 --> 1:13:51.440
<v Speaker 4>the ground so that the energy from the gunshot could disperse,

1:13:51.880 --> 1:13:53.639
<v Speaker 4>it just physics.

1:13:53.760 --> 1:13:57.920
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, I don't think it was inconceivable that her when

1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:02.800
<v Speaker 9>the bullet passed through her head, that it deflected part

1:14:02.840 --> 1:14:06.800
<v Speaker 9>of that material out and out from underneath her head,

1:14:07.240 --> 1:14:10.280
<v Speaker 9>because I believe it was about four feet from the

1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:11.160
<v Speaker 9>top of her head.

1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>This seemed a bit far fetched, so I reached out

1:14:16.840 --> 1:14:21.400
<v Speaker 2>to doctor Bill Smock, who is an internationally recognized forensic

1:14:21.520 --> 1:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>expert in multiple fields, including, but not limited to, reconstruction

1:14:26.520 --> 1:14:32.120
<v Speaker 2>of officer involved shootings and the forensic evaluation of gunshot wounds.

1:14:32.840 --> 1:14:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Smock is also the police surgeon and directs the

1:14:36.760 --> 1:14:41.639
<v Speaker 2>clinical forensic Medicine program for the Louisville Metro Police Department

1:14:41.640 --> 1:14:45.760
<v Speaker 2>in Louisville, Kentucky. He's also a clinical Professor of Emergency

1:14:45.800 --> 1:14:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Medicine at the University of Louisville School of Medicine. When

1:14:50.120 --> 1:14:54.160
<v Speaker 2>I read doctor Smock verbatim what Byron's legal team just

1:14:54.280 --> 1:14:58.040
<v Speaker 2>said about the possibility that Anastasia was lying down when

1:14:58.080 --> 1:15:00.400
<v Speaker 2>she was shot in a piece of her skull was

1:15:00.600 --> 1:15:04.120
<v Speaker 2>sent feet away, doctor Smock says, if her head was

1:15:04.160 --> 1:15:07.200
<v Speaker 2>on the ground, there's no way that her head would

1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>have come up from the force of the shot causing

1:15:10.320 --> 1:15:12.680
<v Speaker 2>a piece of her skull to fly and land up

1:15:12.720 --> 1:15:16.639
<v Speaker 2>two feet away. If anything, he said, it just would

1:15:16.680 --> 1:15:21.160
<v Speaker 2>have gone down further into the ground. So doctor Smock

1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:26.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't believe their theory is possible. Okay, this is a question.

1:15:26.920 --> 1:15:30.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think you guys are going to like feature faces.

1:15:31.360 --> 1:15:31.719
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

1:15:32.760 --> 1:15:35.639
<v Speaker 2>As I went back through the transcripts, I saw something

1:15:36.040 --> 1:15:40.320
<v Speaker 2>that was a teeny tiny bit of like a pink

1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:47.480
<v Speaker 2>flag or a burnt orange flag. In Byron's first interview

1:15:47.680 --> 1:15:52.639
<v Speaker 2>with Kilgore and Kellogg, they asked him, has just never

1:15:52.680 --> 1:15:57.320
<v Speaker 2>been suicidal? And he says, yes, you know, I think

1:15:57.320 --> 1:15:58.559
<v Speaker 2>he's attempted a few times.

1:15:59.080 --> 1:16:01.919
<v Speaker 1>And he says, I'll just read it to you. He says.

1:16:04.160 --> 1:16:08.680
<v Speaker 2>That night, he says, I know he had attempts in

1:16:08.720 --> 1:16:12.640
<v Speaker 2>the past, he quite a few actually.

1:16:13.000 --> 1:16:16.000
<v Speaker 1>And last night he did. After Anastasia got out of

1:16:16.000 --> 1:16:16.439
<v Speaker 1>the car.

1:16:17.200 --> 1:16:20.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. We were driving down Truman Road. We

1:16:20.040 --> 1:16:22.759
<v Speaker 2>were going over I guess it was like railroad tracks

1:16:22.880 --> 1:16:25.519
<v Speaker 2>or something. I don't know, but he was like mentioning,

1:16:25.560 --> 1:16:27.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, he was like, gee, I don't know, you know,

1:16:27.840 --> 1:16:30.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking, like, you know, tonight, I could just kill myself.

1:16:31.360 --> 1:16:34.120
<v Speaker 2>I just thought he was, you know, being silly about it,

1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:37.160
<v Speaker 2>being silly about And then they jump in and ask

1:16:37.240 --> 1:16:39.559
<v Speaker 2>him a couple of questions. Okay, so here's my question.

1:16:39.560 --> 1:16:41.120
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I got a paper cut. The first

1:16:41.120 --> 1:16:44.400
<v Speaker 2>time Kelly comes forward in September of two thousand, she

1:16:44.520 --> 1:16:49.680
<v Speaker 2>says that they dumped the gun near some railroad tracks.

1:16:50.080 --> 1:16:54.439
<v Speaker 2>The only time that railroad tracks come up are when

1:16:54.520 --> 1:16:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Byron says justin thought or mentioned that he might kill himself,

1:17:00.200 --> 1:17:02.800
<v Speaker 2>and when Kelly says they dumped the gun. Is that

1:17:02.880 --> 1:17:08.040
<v Speaker 2>a tell? Did Byron say something that inadvertently he used

1:17:08.160 --> 1:17:14.160
<v Speaker 2>a detail like the railroad tracks that also then matched.

1:17:14.280 --> 1:17:16.639
<v Speaker 1>Or kind of the area where Kelly or.

1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:22.240
<v Speaker 9>Map or is this a tell by Kelly of her

1:17:23.000 --> 1:17:26.400
<v Speaker 9>integrating the actual truth into her fabrication.

1:17:26.880 --> 1:17:29.400
<v Speaker 4>I'm counting the number of railroad tracks they would pass

1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:34.800
<v Speaker 4>over between Washington Mount Washington Cemetery before getting back downtown.

1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:37.200
<v Speaker 2>But I'm not even talking like, not even in relation

1:17:37.400 --> 1:17:40.880
<v Speaker 2>to the area or Lincoln Cemetery or Truman Road. Just

1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:45.760
<v Speaker 2>the fact that Byron says Justin threatened or mentioned suicide

1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:50.280
<v Speaker 2>at some railroad tracks. Kelly says they dumped the gun

1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:53.240
<v Speaker 2>near some railroad tracks. One could say it would make

1:17:53.320 --> 1:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>sense that Justin threatened to kill himself. It was if

1:17:56.760 --> 1:17:59.400
<v Speaker 2>it was at a place after they killed her, it

1:17:59.439 --> 1:18:03.559
<v Speaker 2>was at a place where the gun was dumped, or.

1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:05.599
<v Speaker 4>They pass over railroad tracks on their way back into

1:18:05.640 --> 1:18:06.160
<v Speaker 4>Kansas City.

1:18:06.360 --> 1:18:07.839
<v Speaker 8>You're saying, yeah, I just think.

1:18:07.640 --> 1:18:09.280
<v Speaker 11>That three times.

1:18:09.479 --> 1:18:13.000
<v Speaker 8>I think that that would be a I don't think

1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:13.280
<v Speaker 8>that that.

1:18:13.400 --> 1:18:17.360
<v Speaker 9>I don't find that fact particularly alarming or anything. I mean,

1:18:17.920 --> 1:18:20.800
<v Speaker 9>take your point, but it's just to me, it just

1:18:20.800 --> 1:18:24.639
<v Speaker 9>seems like Byron is we're calling the story as it happened.

1:18:24.720 --> 1:18:26.759
<v Speaker 9>He's like, so she gets out and then we're driving

1:18:27.040 --> 1:18:29.800
<v Speaker 9>and we start going over some railroad tracks and then

1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:33.080
<v Speaker 9>oh and Justin's like talking about killing himself because of

1:18:33.080 --> 1:18:34.840
<v Speaker 9>this argument they just had, Like.

1:18:34.880 --> 1:18:38.840
<v Speaker 4>It's another industrial area, so there are two opportunities before

1:18:38.880 --> 1:18:41.599
<v Speaker 4>they get back even inside the what we would call

1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:45.400
<v Speaker 4>the Downtown Loop or South Kansas City area, two opportunities

1:18:45.439 --> 1:18:47.840
<v Speaker 4>where there are lots of railroad tracks.

1:18:49.280 --> 1:18:50.760
<v Speaker 1>It just stood out to me.

1:18:51.160 --> 1:18:53.439
<v Speaker 2>But if he just witnessed a murder, or he just

1:18:53.520 --> 1:18:55.679
<v Speaker 2>killed her while the three of them were together, one

1:18:55.720 --> 1:18:58.800
<v Speaker 2>could say, like that would be a response that could

1:18:58.800 --> 1:19:03.120
<v Speaker 2>be believable. So I wanted to ask, because you know,

1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:05.679
<v Speaker 2>it's like, was that go ahead?

1:19:06.520 --> 1:19:10.559
<v Speaker 10>Were those of the railroad tracks by Lake Quavera or why?

1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:13.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it even matters where the tracks are.

1:19:13.880 --> 1:19:14.439
<v Speaker 1>I think just.

1:19:14.439 --> 1:19:18.599
<v Speaker 2>Hearing Byron say when we were near some railroad tracks,

1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:21.760
<v Speaker 2>Justin said I should just kill myself tonight. And then

1:19:21.800 --> 1:19:24.000
<v Speaker 2>it turns out that the only other time we hear

1:19:24.080 --> 1:19:26.559
<v Speaker 2>railroad tracks is when Kelly says they dumped the gun

1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:30.680
<v Speaker 2>near them. One could just say, hmm, I wonder if

1:19:30.720 --> 1:19:35.200
<v Speaker 2>there is a connection time just having killed her.

1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:39.320
<v Speaker 9>Every good fabrication incorporates elements of truth in it. But

1:19:39.439 --> 1:19:42.880
<v Speaker 9>she would have been in the car when Justin says

1:19:42.920 --> 1:19:45.960
<v Speaker 9>that as they're going over railroad tracks, and so.

1:19:46.439 --> 1:19:48.839
<v Speaker 6>I would say, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn

1:19:48.880 --> 1:19:51.360
<v Speaker 6>every now and then, they're probably a couple of.

1:19:51.280 --> 1:19:52.719
<v Speaker 1>Truth blind squirrel.

1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:57.000
<v Speaker 6>No, no, no, Kelly's the blind squirrel. It's a corollary

1:19:57.000 --> 1:19:59.360
<v Speaker 6>to the broken clock. Even a broken clock is right

1:19:59.400 --> 1:20:00.080
<v Speaker 6>twice a day.

1:20:00.240 --> 1:20:02.680
<v Speaker 8>To me, it's the same it's the same thing as

1:20:02.720 --> 1:20:03.560
<v Speaker 8>her incorporation.

1:20:03.760 --> 1:20:07.520
<v Speaker 9>She's incorporating real memories into her fabrication.

1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:09.559
<v Speaker 6>We've talked about theories of the case.

1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:11.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's all speculation.

1:20:11.720 --> 1:20:16.160
<v Speaker 6>Have no idea, Yeah, we really don't. But the police

1:20:16.320 --> 1:20:20.280
<v Speaker 6>theory of the case from the beginning was a murder supicide.

1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:24.400
<v Speaker 6>That's what they thought. We don't know when or if

1:20:24.479 --> 1:20:27.840
<v Speaker 6>or how Justin would have reconnected with Anastasia that night,

1:20:29.160 --> 1:20:32.200
<v Speaker 6>but for a long time that's what the police belief happened.

1:20:33.120 --> 1:20:36.160
<v Speaker 2>So did Justin say he wanted to take his own

1:20:36.240 --> 1:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>life because Anastaesia got out of the car or was

1:20:40.240 --> 1:20:44.479
<v Speaker 2>it because he just committed or witnessed her murder?

1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:48.880
<v Speaker 10>I was just going to point out, just for transparency,

1:20:49.040 --> 1:20:52.280
<v Speaker 10>that we all have a different version. I mean, we

1:20:52.400 --> 1:20:55.320
<v Speaker 10>all have different ideas about what could have happened.

1:20:56.680 --> 1:21:00.599
<v Speaker 6>The question is this, what is the physical evidence? It

1:21:00.680 --> 1:21:04.800
<v Speaker 6>shows that the police find her body in the cemetery,

1:21:05.880 --> 1:21:08.759
<v Speaker 6>she has been shot with a gun that was touching

1:21:08.800 --> 1:21:10.960
<v Speaker 6>her nose, when it was fired, and she did not

1:21:11.080 --> 1:21:15.040
<v Speaker 6>turn away. She was probably lying on her back when

1:21:15.040 --> 1:21:18.080
<v Speaker 6>that happened. It could be a pistol, it could have

1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:21.800
<v Speaker 6>been a rifle, but they can't say. All we know

1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:24.240
<v Speaker 6>is that there's not a gun on the scene. If

1:21:24.240 --> 1:21:26.639
<v Speaker 6>there had been a gun on the scene, this would

1:21:26.640 --> 1:21:30.720
<v Speaker 6>have been ruled a suicide, open and shutcase. But the

1:21:30.760 --> 1:21:34.200
<v Speaker 6>crime lab has said the absence of a gun at

1:21:34.200 --> 1:21:38.000
<v Speaker 6>the scene does not foreclose suicide, especially when we know

1:21:38.840 --> 1:21:43.360
<v Speaker 6>there's an unexplained automobile that was there at the scene.

1:21:43.439 --> 1:21:46.200
<v Speaker 6>We cannot exclude. Now, we don't know when that car

1:21:46.240 --> 1:21:49.799
<v Speaker 6>went by, but we do know it went by before

1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:52.559
<v Speaker 6>the police got there. It might have been a few

1:21:52.640 --> 1:21:56.439
<v Speaker 6>days before, it had rained on that like two days before,

1:21:56.479 --> 1:22:00.400
<v Speaker 6>but still a car had been by, and so we

1:22:00.439 --> 1:22:05.320
<v Speaker 6>don't know that the scene was pristine when the police arrived.

1:22:05.840 --> 1:22:09.440
<v Speaker 6>And so, beyond a reasonable doubt, did someone kill Anastatia?

1:22:09.560 --> 1:22:11.600
<v Speaker 6>I don't think they can show that it would go

1:22:11.640 --> 1:22:14.599
<v Speaker 6>on from there. You know, if she didn't take her

1:22:14.600 --> 1:22:17.679
<v Speaker 6>own life, what could have happened? How could that gun

1:22:17.760 --> 1:22:21.480
<v Speaker 6>have been missing? Well, there is evidence that Bob Whitbolsfugen

1:22:21.560 --> 1:22:25.080
<v Speaker 6>thinks he heard the gun that killed her. He thinks

1:22:25.080 --> 1:22:28.000
<v Speaker 6>he heard that shot and he was standing in a

1:22:28.040 --> 1:22:30.599
<v Speaker 6>place and said the shot came from the west of

1:22:30.640 --> 1:22:35.000
<v Speaker 6>where he was, in the general direction of Lincoln Cemetery.

1:22:35.040 --> 1:22:37.679
<v Speaker 6>It is inconceivable that he didn't go there to look

1:22:37.680 --> 1:22:42.280
<v Speaker 6>for the gun. He, by the way, has the financial

1:22:42.800 --> 1:22:46.560
<v Speaker 6>incentive to cover up a suicide because he just increased

1:22:46.560 --> 1:22:50.479
<v Speaker 6>two days earlier the life insurance policy. So there's evidence

1:22:50.520 --> 1:22:53.920
<v Speaker 6>to support that theory. And I'd probably argue to a

1:22:54.040 --> 1:22:59.040
<v Speaker 6>jury that to find Byron guilty beyond a reasonable doubt,

1:22:59.080 --> 1:23:01.760
<v Speaker 6>you have to answer these questions. That all of these

1:23:01.840 --> 1:23:07.120
<v Speaker 6>unanswered questions doesn't mean that Byron is guilty because we

1:23:07.200 --> 1:23:10.519
<v Speaker 6>can't answer these questions. They opposite is true. These questions

1:23:10.680 --> 1:23:16.000
<v Speaker 6>raise other possibilities inconsistent with Byron's guild.

1:23:29.640 --> 1:23:36.679
<v Speaker 2>What do you make of people's varying timelines, Like Suleiman

1:23:37.120 --> 1:23:40.400
<v Speaker 2>and don Wright tell very different times that Anastasia was

1:23:40.439 --> 1:23:44.920
<v Speaker 2>at the dairy, Queen don Rand said that he saw

1:23:44.960 --> 1:23:51.479
<v Speaker 2>her at thirty. None of those timelines really totally work

1:23:52.000 --> 1:23:55.280
<v Speaker 2>with her getting out of the car, then they went

1:23:55.320 --> 1:23:58.120
<v Speaker 2>to Abraham's. Then she was home and Kelly was home

1:23:58.160 --> 1:24:01.520
<v Speaker 2>by nine fifteen. So what do you make of everyone's

1:24:01.680 --> 1:24:02.840
<v Speaker 2>very different timelines.

1:24:02.960 --> 1:24:07.439
<v Speaker 9>Well, the time change, well that happened after but a week,

1:24:07.600 --> 1:24:10.240
<v Speaker 9>like a week after she was found. But I think

1:24:10.280 --> 1:24:16.600
<v Speaker 9>that it's that time of year when it's getting darker earlier.

1:24:17.200 --> 1:24:20.960
<v Speaker 9>I think you asked anybody in October what time something

1:24:21.040 --> 1:24:25.120
<v Speaker 9>happened last night? Your brain is still adjusting to dark

1:24:25.439 --> 1:24:28.599
<v Speaker 9>being eight o'clock versus dark being seven o'clock.

1:24:28.800 --> 1:24:29.040
<v Speaker 7>You know.

1:24:29.560 --> 1:24:31.080
<v Speaker 1>But Don Wright does start intructor.

1:24:31.120 --> 1:24:33.760
<v Speaker 2>Don Wright does say that she was here until a

1:24:33.840 --> 1:24:37.040
<v Speaker 2>half hour before closing, and we close at ten, so

1:24:37.720 --> 1:24:39.920
<v Speaker 2>that's much later, and we.

1:24:39.920 --> 1:24:44.120
<v Speaker 9>Know that can't be accurate because Kelly was home by

1:24:44.160 --> 1:24:46.559
<v Speaker 9>that point in time, verified by Debbie.

1:24:46.640 --> 1:24:50.720
<v Speaker 8>I mean, that was her curfew. She would have.

1:24:50.640 --> 1:24:54.080
<v Speaker 9>Gone nuclear if her daughter wasn't home by nine o'clock

1:24:54.439 --> 1:24:55.240
<v Speaker 9>she was supposed to.

1:24:55.439 --> 1:25:00.000
<v Speaker 6>This is why the failure to collect that video surveillance

1:25:00.479 --> 1:25:05.840
<v Speaker 6>is so prejudicial to the defense, because we would have

1:25:05.880 --> 1:25:08.200
<v Speaker 6>a definitive point of time at which they left the

1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:13.080
<v Speaker 6>dairy Queen, and then we have DeBie Moffatt establishing when

1:25:13.160 --> 1:25:15.960
<v Speaker 6>Kelly got home, and we would have those two points

1:25:15.960 --> 1:25:19.360
<v Speaker 6>in time fixed, and that would let us test everything

1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:25.479
<v Speaker 6>in between, but and reenact on a clock whether or

1:25:25.560 --> 1:25:31.320
<v Speaker 6>not Kelly's story is even plausible given the timeline and.

1:25:31.320 --> 1:25:33.719
<v Speaker 10>At the end of the day, Kelly told don Right

1:25:33.920 --> 1:25:36.360
<v Speaker 10>Justin didn't want to come to Independence to pick her

1:25:36.400 --> 1:25:40.599
<v Speaker 10>up because an Annastasia told don Wright that Justin didn't

1:25:40.640 --> 1:25:42.200
<v Speaker 10>want to come to Independence to pick her up because

1:25:42.240 --> 1:25:44.360
<v Speaker 10>he was hanging out with his best friend. Does that

1:25:44.479 --> 1:25:48.160
<v Speaker 10>sound like someone who's plotted to kill her all day

1:25:48.560 --> 1:25:49.880
<v Speaker 10>he doesn't want to come get her.

1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:50.600
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

1:25:51.240 --> 1:25:52.200
<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to add.

1:25:52.040 --> 1:25:56.280
<v Speaker 2>That a lot of people wrote in They had a

1:25:56.280 --> 1:25:58.919
<v Speaker 2>lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

1:25:59.720 --> 1:26:05.320
<v Speaker 1>One of them was is Byron a sociopath?

1:26:05.640 --> 1:26:07.960
<v Speaker 2>And I know that you had him evaluate it, so

1:26:08.000 --> 1:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to ask you about that.

1:26:10.320 --> 1:26:17.680
<v Speaker 9>Absolutely no evidence of sociopathy or any personality disorders or

1:26:17.720 --> 1:26:21.920
<v Speaker 9>anything like that. And in fact, you know, part of

1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:25.280
<v Speaker 9>us we were wondering if maybe he was on the spectrum,

1:26:25.280 --> 1:26:27.680
<v Speaker 9>and I think that kind of came back as inconclusive,

1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:29.800
<v Speaker 9>but which you.

1:26:29.800 --> 1:26:32.120
<v Speaker 8>Know, we were. We were interested in that for explaining

1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:32.920
<v Speaker 8>some of his.

1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:34.799
<v Speaker 6>Demeanor.

1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:38.559
<v Speaker 9>Demeanor, Yeah, and that's not that's nothing that when you

1:26:38.600 --> 1:26:42.800
<v Speaker 9>get to know Byron, he's not, you know, you see

1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:45.559
<v Speaker 9>him for who he is. But I could understand why

1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:50.880
<v Speaker 9>some people would think he was I hate to say weird,

1:26:50.960 --> 1:26:52.799
<v Speaker 9>but why he was different.

1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:56.360
<v Speaker 6>Well, he's brilliant. Yeah, he is smart, and so he

1:26:56.720 --> 1:27:01.400
<v Speaker 6>intellectually ruminates on a lot of things, and you know,

1:27:01.439 --> 1:27:03.880
<v Speaker 6>people can draw conclusions from that, but that's just how

1:27:03.920 --> 1:27:04.960
<v Speaker 6>Byron he is. You know.

1:27:05.160 --> 1:27:09.120
<v Speaker 9>The other thing is we got his prison conduct records

1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:12.000
<v Speaker 9>and he only in twenty some odd years of being

1:27:12.040 --> 1:27:17.439
<v Speaker 9>in prison, has two conduct violations, one for staying up

1:27:17.479 --> 1:27:20.960
<v Speaker 9>past curfew to read a book and the other for

1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:24.000
<v Speaker 9>working on his Innocent's website when they had told him

1:27:24.000 --> 1:27:26.320
<v Speaker 9>to stop working on his innocence website. If he was

1:27:26.360 --> 1:27:29.080
<v Speaker 9>a sociopath, that would be documented.

1:27:29.120 --> 1:27:33.639
<v Speaker 2>At this point, Brian just answered, Actually, another listener's question

1:27:34.040 --> 1:27:38.719
<v Speaker 2>about whether or not Byron is autistic. The listener asked

1:27:38.760 --> 1:27:42.880
<v Speaker 2>if Byron is on the spectrum, suggesting that could explain

1:27:42.960 --> 1:27:47.280
<v Speaker 2>some of his behaviors and judgments. Brian just said that

1:27:47.360 --> 1:27:51.600
<v Speaker 2>testing came back inconclusive. One listener wrote asking if the

1:27:51.640 --> 1:27:55.639
<v Speaker 2>phone records can still be retrieved. It seems that answer

1:27:56.000 --> 1:27:59.400
<v Speaker 2>is no. Another person wrote in asking about the weight

1:27:59.520 --> 1:28:03.200
<v Speaker 2>of the bullet fragment, wondering if that could tell us

1:28:03.200 --> 1:28:06.320
<v Speaker 2>something about the kind of gun that was used, so

1:28:06.520 --> 1:28:11.200
<v Speaker 2>the weight is fifty six point one grains, which unfortunately

1:28:11.680 --> 1:28:16.759
<v Speaker 2>doesn't rule out a lot of calibers. Another person wrote

1:28:16.760 --> 1:28:19.599
<v Speaker 2>in asking if there was a metal detector ever used

1:28:19.640 --> 1:28:22.280
<v Speaker 2>to look for other bullet fragments at the site where

1:28:22.320 --> 1:28:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia died. A metal detector was used the day her

1:28:26.439 --> 1:28:30.280
<v Speaker 2>body was found. According to a police report, there were

1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:35.400
<v Speaker 2>several small to medium size metal objects located as deep

1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:38.479
<v Speaker 2>as eight to ten inches below the surface of the ground.

1:28:39.400 --> 1:28:43.439
<v Speaker 2>None were bullets. Many listeners asked if this wasn't in

1:28:43.479 --> 1:28:48.160
<v Speaker 2>fact a murder suicide, that maybe after Justin took Byron home,

1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:52.040
<v Speaker 2>he went back out, met up with Anastasia, killed her,

1:28:52.320 --> 1:28:57.120
<v Speaker 2>then took his own life. Sadly, there's really no way

1:28:57.240 --> 1:29:01.240
<v Speaker 2>to prove that. Another question that came in was about

1:29:01.240 --> 1:29:04.479
<v Speaker 2>what items were picked up from Abraham and taken to

1:29:04.600 --> 1:29:08.800
<v Speaker 2>Tara that night, and there are conflicting stories about that.

1:29:09.320 --> 1:29:12.880
<v Speaker 2>There are also conflicting stories about whose house they went

1:29:12.960 --> 1:29:16.639
<v Speaker 2>to first. It's hard to know if there's a there

1:29:16.800 --> 1:29:19.920
<v Speaker 2>there or if it's just that too much time had

1:29:19.920 --> 1:29:24.240
<v Speaker 2>gone by and those memories had faded. Let's talk about

1:29:24.240 --> 1:29:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Bob for two seconds. Is there for all of the

1:29:27.880 --> 1:29:33.479
<v Speaker 2>stuff that seems ridiculous that Bob came up with, like

1:29:33.600 --> 1:29:37.920
<v Speaker 2>the caravan of cars. Is it possible that some of

1:29:37.960 --> 1:29:46.120
<v Speaker 2>the other things he was just mistaken about, like the clothes,

1:29:46.400 --> 1:29:49.559
<v Speaker 2>like the underwear and jeans at the house.

1:29:50.040 --> 1:29:53.479
<v Speaker 1>Could they have been friends? Could they? I mean, he

1:29:53.520 --> 1:29:56.880
<v Speaker 1>doesn't report those for a while, right, So.

1:29:58.400 --> 1:30:01.720
<v Speaker 2>Even though he's says that he found them not long

1:30:01.760 --> 1:30:04.040
<v Speaker 2>after the murder, you.

1:30:04.000 --> 1:30:05.759
<v Speaker 1>Know, he said a lot of things.

1:30:05.920 --> 1:30:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it's hard to say, like we're gonna believe

1:30:09.160 --> 1:30:12.080
<v Speaker 2>everything that Bob says, or we're gonna pick and choose

1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:15.759
<v Speaker 2>some of the things that we believe Bob said was true.

1:30:15.840 --> 1:30:17.599
<v Speaker 2>Well we've you know what I mean, Like the audience

1:30:17.680 --> 1:30:21.559
<v Speaker 2>is listening and they're like, well, Bob helps us in

1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:24.679
<v Speaker 2>this way, but it is ridiculous in this way.

1:30:24.840 --> 1:30:29.559
<v Speaker 4>Or because we have external verification again, like when he

1:30:29.880 --> 1:30:31.880
<v Speaker 4>talks about the underwear being in the saying and the

1:30:31.960 --> 1:30:35.599
<v Speaker 4>genes being there, we do know that at least somewhere

1:30:35.600 --> 1:30:38.599
<v Speaker 4>on this timeline, Anastasia cleaned herself up because her underwear

1:30:38.640 --> 1:30:41.280
<v Speaker 4>is clean, her body is clean, the pad is clean,

1:30:42.200 --> 1:30:43.519
<v Speaker 4>so she had to clean herself up.

1:30:43.600 --> 1:30:46.559
<v Speaker 6>So but with Bob, we look at him the same

1:30:46.560 --> 1:30:49.439
<v Speaker 6>way we do Kelly. And so with Bob. I mean,

1:30:49.560 --> 1:30:53.200
<v Speaker 6>the purse that he took a photograph of and email

1:30:53.320 --> 1:30:58.120
<v Speaker 6>to Detective Kilgore matched perfectly the description of the one

1:30:58.160 --> 1:31:02.240
<v Speaker 6>that Dawn writes. AW, So that's pretty good evidence that

1:31:03.520 --> 1:31:07.080
<v Speaker 6>he's you know that the panties and the and the

1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:14.040
<v Speaker 6>genes and the laundry those support his theory that Anastasia

1:31:14.040 --> 1:31:17.280
<v Speaker 6>went home. And so that's how we look.

1:31:17.200 --> 1:31:21.599
<v Speaker 2>At everything in the case a chance that don Rand

1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:26.559
<v Speaker 2>was incorrect and identifying Anastasia on Truman Road that night that.

1:31:28.080 --> 1:31:34.200
<v Speaker 9>Incorrect, it would be such a coincidence that they that

1:31:34.560 --> 1:31:39.040
<v Speaker 9>they just happened to fabricate a story about Anastasia getting

1:31:39.080 --> 1:31:44.000
<v Speaker 9>out of the car at around dusk, and then a

1:31:44.120 --> 1:31:47.439
<v Speaker 9>mechanic at that exact location looks at a picture over

1:31:47.640 --> 1:31:50.559
<v Speaker 9>and says, yeah, that's the girl I saw get out

1:31:50.600 --> 1:31:51.280
<v Speaker 9>about dusk.

1:31:52.120 --> 1:31:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I asked Kelly about that. I was like,

1:31:54.280 --> 1:31:57.440
<v Speaker 2>what do you make of Don Rand having seen Anastasia?

1:31:57.800 --> 1:32:01.120
<v Speaker 2>And she was like, and don't quote me, because you know,

1:32:01.600 --> 1:32:06.360
<v Speaker 2>but she said, we were stunned because it bolstered the

1:32:06.400 --> 1:32:09.840
<v Speaker 2>story that we made up. We couldn't believe how how lucky,

1:32:09.880 --> 1:32:11.519
<v Speaker 2>we got that there was somebody.

1:32:12.680 --> 1:32:13.920
<v Speaker 8>Wait a minute, hold on, hold.

1:32:13.720 --> 1:32:18.559
<v Speaker 14>On when when when she exactly when was she stunned

1:32:18.640 --> 1:32:22.320
<v Speaker 14>about that? When she says Byron right, he didn't know

1:32:22.400 --> 1:32:24.679
<v Speaker 14>that there was When did they find out that somebody

1:32:24.680 --> 1:32:26.599
<v Speaker 14>at a gas station says they saw her?

1:32:26.640 --> 1:32:30.559
<v Speaker 8>I don't know, but that's the that's my question for Kelly.

1:32:30.600 --> 1:32:34.800
<v Speaker 9>When did you and Byron supposedly find out that an

1:32:34.840 --> 1:32:38.639
<v Speaker 9>independent witness saw Anastasia get out of the car, because

1:32:38.680 --> 1:32:41.320
<v Speaker 9>if that was a week in the investigation.

1:32:42.760 --> 1:32:43.240
<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

1:32:43.840 --> 1:32:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I didn't ask Kelly, but I was just

1:32:46.439 --> 1:32:53.000
<v Speaker 2>going to say, because Terra spoke with Don Round, what

1:32:53.600 --> 1:32:57.680
<v Speaker 2>do you think is going to be the greatest likelihood

1:32:57.960 --> 1:33:02.240
<v Speaker 2>of you getting Byron and a new trial? Will it

1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:05.040
<v Speaker 2>be the Brady violations or what?

1:33:06.000 --> 1:33:08.800
<v Speaker 9>We do believe that the Brady violations are the strongest

1:33:08.880 --> 1:33:13.240
<v Speaker 9>and clearest, especially the fact that they did not disclose

1:33:13.320 --> 1:33:19.720
<v Speaker 9>Kelly's criminal record before trial. There's a Missouri black letter

1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:24.040
<v Speaker 9>law right on point when you have a single witness

1:33:24.479 --> 1:33:29.080
<v Speaker 9>that you're resting your case on and you failed to disclose.

1:33:30.800 --> 1:33:34.519
<v Speaker 8>Evidence related to their credibility new trial.

1:33:35.240 --> 1:33:39.360
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, the other claimed that I think is equally important

1:33:39.400 --> 1:33:45.160
<v Speaker 6>if not more so is a now Coup versus Illinois violation,

1:33:45.360 --> 1:33:49.439
<v Speaker 6>which is the prosecutor presenting evidence that they know or

1:33:49.479 --> 1:33:53.240
<v Speaker 6>should know is false, and the transcript they used to

1:33:53.320 --> 1:33:57.200
<v Speaker 6>bolster Kelly's credibility is false. I wanted to point out

1:33:57.240 --> 1:34:01.320
<v Speaker 6>that all this discussion we're having is discussion that should

1:34:01.360 --> 1:34:05.040
<v Speaker 6>have happened in the jury deliberations. You know, you could

1:34:05.080 --> 1:34:08.679
<v Speaker 6>picture making the movie twelve Angry Men about this case,

1:34:08.760 --> 1:34:11.720
<v Speaker 6>or twelve angry people about this case. We should be

1:34:11.840 --> 1:34:13.839
<v Speaker 6>you know, the jury should have been the one arguing

1:34:13.920 --> 1:34:16.200
<v Speaker 6>these facts, and they didn't get any of it. They

1:34:16.600 --> 1:34:19.000
<v Speaker 6>barely got any of it. And we can lay the

1:34:19.000 --> 1:34:22.879
<v Speaker 6>blame at the police for not telling the prosecutor everything,

1:34:23.360 --> 1:34:27.439
<v Speaker 6>not forwarding Bob's emails. We can blame the prosecutor for

1:34:27.560 --> 1:34:30.920
<v Speaker 6>not telling the defense about Kelly's conviction, the fact that

1:34:30.960 --> 1:34:35.040
<v Speaker 6>she's under warrant when she's giving statements and depositions about

1:34:35.040 --> 1:34:38.880
<v Speaker 6>the case. And you know, we can blame the prosecution

1:34:39.240 --> 1:34:44.120
<v Speaker 6>for producing a false transcript that all you need to

1:34:44.160 --> 1:34:47.840
<v Speaker 6>do is ask a court reporter like we did, to

1:34:47.880 --> 1:34:50.559
<v Speaker 6>transcribe it and you get a truthful version of it.

1:34:50.600 --> 1:34:53.880
<v Speaker 6>This is what court reporters are trained to do and certify.

1:34:54.080 --> 1:34:58.360
<v Speaker 6>So it's now certified beyond question that the state used

1:34:58.360 --> 1:35:02.200
<v Speaker 6>a false transcript, and so under natpoo versus Illinois, if

1:35:02.200 --> 1:35:05.599
<v Speaker 6>there is any likelihood that it would have affected the verdict,

1:35:05.640 --> 1:35:09.439
<v Speaker 6>then Byron is entitled to a new trial. The big

1:35:09.479 --> 1:35:14.280
<v Speaker 6>issue is always procedural technicalities. We're not just allowed to

1:35:14.320 --> 1:35:16.720
<v Speaker 6>walk into court and say, here's the new evidence, let

1:35:16.800 --> 1:35:21.519
<v Speaker 6>him go. We have to show that somebody blocked this

1:35:21.640 --> 1:35:26.920
<v Speaker 6>evidence from getting into early Europeans and that's really the

1:35:27.040 --> 1:35:27.880
<v Speaker 6>challenge for us.

1:35:29.360 --> 1:35:34.679
<v Speaker 2>Do you feel that Byron is legally innocent or factually innocent.

1:35:35.520 --> 1:35:39.160
<v Speaker 6>I think he's factually innocent, And by factual innocence, I

1:35:39.240 --> 1:35:43.760
<v Speaker 6>mean he didn't kill anyone, And you know, legal innocence

1:35:43.800 --> 1:35:49.440
<v Speaker 6>and factual innocence is kind of a bizarre little distinction,

1:35:49.680 --> 1:35:52.439
<v Speaker 6>but he didn't do it. And I believe that.

1:35:52.800 --> 1:35:56.639
<v Speaker 9>Yeah, I believe Byron is actually innocent. I didn't believe that.

1:35:57.640 --> 1:36:01.599
<v Speaker 9>I didn't have a opinion about that when I first

1:36:01.840 --> 1:36:02.840
<v Speaker 9>got involved in the case.

1:36:02.880 --> 1:36:04.000
<v Speaker 8>When I first got involved in.

1:36:03.960 --> 1:36:06.040
<v Speaker 9>The case, I knew he was legally innocent because I

1:36:06.080 --> 1:36:08.040
<v Speaker 9>knew he didn't get a fair trial. And I believe

1:36:08.560 --> 1:36:11.640
<v Speaker 9>I don't everybody deserves a fair trial. What else is

1:36:11.640 --> 1:36:15.519
<v Speaker 9>the system if we don't have fairness? But you know,

1:36:15.880 --> 1:36:19.799
<v Speaker 9>very quickly within getting into this case is when I

1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:23.639
<v Speaker 9>figured out and fully believe that he's actually innocent.

1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:26.680
<v Speaker 8>It is not in Byron's character to do something like this.

1:36:27.240 --> 1:36:30.680
<v Speaker 9>He just simply is not the kind of person that

1:36:30.760 --> 1:36:35.080
<v Speaker 9>would be a you know, quote unquote thrill killer or something,

1:36:35.200 --> 1:36:39.160
<v Speaker 9>or kill someone because they were annoying. He's too thoughtful,

1:36:39.240 --> 1:36:43.320
<v Speaker 9>he's too empathetic, he's too good of a human to do.

1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:44.000
<v Speaker 8>Something like that.

1:36:44.400 --> 1:36:47.479
<v Speaker 9>And the fact that there is not one shred of

1:36:47.520 --> 1:36:53.519
<v Speaker 9>evidence other than his lying ex girlfriend to convict him

1:36:54.000 --> 1:36:57.920
<v Speaker 9>is Yeah, I have very strong feelings about that, and

1:36:58.320 --> 1:36:59.080
<v Speaker 9>it makes me mad.

1:36:59.160 --> 1:36:59.680
<v Speaker 8>It makes me.

1:36:59.720 --> 1:37:02.439
<v Speaker 9>Sad, It makes me scared for other people that have

1:37:02.520 --> 1:37:05.080
<v Speaker 9>to go through this system that seems to have no

1:37:05.160 --> 1:37:10.080
<v Speaker 9>interest in reforming itself or actually being fair when that matters.

1:37:11.040 --> 1:37:14.320
<v Speaker 4>I believe Byron is innocent because I've done the investigation.

1:37:15.000 --> 1:37:17.439
<v Speaker 4>I went out and I talked to people, We had

1:37:17.439 --> 1:37:22.160
<v Speaker 4>the forensic evidence examined by people who were finally provided

1:37:22.200 --> 1:37:25.120
<v Speaker 4>with the materials that they needed to do a true examination,

1:37:25.840 --> 1:37:29.679
<v Speaker 4>And at every turn, Byron is innocent. Every single time,

1:37:29.960 --> 1:37:34.439
<v Speaker 4>I have in the past started an investigation and found

1:37:34.600 --> 1:37:39.320
<v Speaker 4>definitive proof that someone was guilty, usually by DNA evidence,

1:37:39.520 --> 1:37:43.000
<v Speaker 4>and it's heartbreaking, but you have to step away from

1:37:43.040 --> 1:37:47.960
<v Speaker 4>those cases. I can't say someone is innocent without having

1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:51.040
<v Speaker 4>done the investigation myself. I'm not going to put my

1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:53.320
<v Speaker 4>integrity or my reputation on the line to do that.

1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:58.880
<v Speaker 4>I believe Byron Case is innocent. Factually, legally, he did

1:37:58.920 --> 1:37:59.479
<v Speaker 4>not do this.

1:38:00.400 --> 1:38:01.920
<v Speaker 1>I believe Byron is actually innocent.

1:38:02.040 --> 1:38:05.439
<v Speaker 10>I like Quinn, think that he's legally innocent and actually innocent.

1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:07.840
<v Speaker 10>I don't know what it would take to get me

1:38:07.880 --> 1:38:08.439
<v Speaker 10>to change my mind.

1:38:08.479 --> 1:38:11.360
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna have to take those facts as they come, So.

1:38:11.520 --> 1:38:15.000
<v Speaker 11>I don't know, say the evidence in this case is

1:38:15.040 --> 1:38:15.919
<v Speaker 11>what really matters.

1:38:16.000 --> 1:38:20.439
<v Speaker 4>And you know, we can pontificate and theorize all day

1:38:20.479 --> 1:38:21.599
<v Speaker 4>about what really happened.

1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:24.320
<v Speaker 11>That's an interesting thing to do.

1:38:24.479 --> 1:38:27.559
<v Speaker 4>But every time we do that, every time we talk

1:38:27.600 --> 1:38:30.160
<v Speaker 4>about theories about what happened, and none of those theories

1:38:30.200 --> 1:38:30.880
<v Speaker 4>involved Byron.

1:38:31.160 --> 1:38:33.639
<v Speaker 11>And that's the point. Byron Case didn't do.

1:38:33.640 --> 1:38:39.920
<v Speaker 2>This anything else before we say goodbye.

1:38:40.840 --> 1:38:41.360
<v Speaker 8>I don't think so.

1:38:41.400 --> 1:38:43.840
<v Speaker 9>I think we just we really appreciate the time and

1:38:44.000 --> 1:38:46.800
<v Speaker 9>attention that you've given to this, and we do.

1:38:46.880 --> 1:38:51.080
<v Speaker 8>We appreciate the fairness and the the.

1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:55.680
<v Speaker 9>That you are also fact checking us and trying to

1:38:55.720 --> 1:38:58.120
<v Speaker 9>keep us honest. Then the new things even that you've

1:38:58.120 --> 1:39:03.040
<v Speaker 9>discovered has been very helpful and illuminating for us, and

1:39:03.080 --> 1:39:04.040
<v Speaker 9>so we appreciate that.

1:39:04.280 --> 1:39:04.640
<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

1:39:09.600 --> 1:39:13.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know where to begin with how to

1:39:13.680 --> 1:39:17.480
<v Speaker 2>end this season. I have said it since the beginning.

1:39:18.160 --> 1:39:21.679
<v Speaker 2>I have only been in search of the truth. Although

1:39:21.720 --> 1:39:25.360
<v Speaker 2>other people have been mentioned as potential persons of interest,

1:39:26.160 --> 1:39:28.080
<v Speaker 2>doesn't it really come down to who do you believe

1:39:28.600 --> 1:39:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Byron or Kelly? By your Instagram comments, messages and emails,

1:39:35.000 --> 1:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I can see there are listeners very much on both

1:39:38.040 --> 1:39:42.160
<v Speaker 2>sides of the fence. It's pretty much divided. Byron has

1:39:42.160 --> 1:39:45.760
<v Speaker 2>told the same story since nineteen ninety seven. There's no

1:39:45.840 --> 1:39:49.000
<v Speaker 2>physical evidence that links him to the murder. His legal

1:39:49.040 --> 1:39:52.040
<v Speaker 2>team says, there are people who saw Anastasia that night,

1:39:52.360 --> 1:39:55.320
<v Speaker 2>which proves she got out of the car, and her

1:39:55.400 --> 1:39:58.000
<v Speaker 2>genes and the washing machine and underwear soaking in a

1:39:58.040 --> 1:40:01.920
<v Speaker 2>sink proved she went on home. They say, if she

1:40:01.960 --> 1:40:05.040
<v Speaker 2>got out of the car, Byron didn't do it. They say,

1:40:05.040 --> 1:40:08.439
<v Speaker 2>if she went home, Byron didn't do it. They also

1:40:08.520 --> 1:40:12.200
<v Speaker 2>say the TACIT admission is now a moot point because

1:40:12.240 --> 1:40:14.560
<v Speaker 2>Byron now can be heard saying.

1:40:14.760 --> 1:40:16.639
<v Speaker 1>We should talk about this.

1:40:17.720 --> 1:40:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Kelly says she witnessed Anastasia's murder and the guilt she

1:40:21.479 --> 1:40:24.240
<v Speaker 2>felt caused her to spiral into a drug addiction that

1:40:24.320 --> 1:40:27.559
<v Speaker 2>almost killed her. She says she didn't come forward for

1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:31.320
<v Speaker 2>years because she was scared being told by Byron she

1:40:31.520 --> 1:40:35.320
<v Speaker 2>was as guilty as he was. She also says, before

1:40:35.320 --> 1:40:38.840
<v Speaker 2>being made to come forward, she told her dad, her

1:40:38.880 --> 1:40:43.240
<v Speaker 2>ex boyfriend Jim, and her friend Antigianino that Byron had

1:40:43.320 --> 1:40:48.200
<v Speaker 2>murdered Anastasia. Kelly says she is iffy on some details,

1:40:48.600 --> 1:40:52.000
<v Speaker 2>but remembers the important things, like Byron is the one

1:40:52.040 --> 1:40:56.719
<v Speaker 2>who pulled the trigger. About the TACIT admission call, Kelly asks,

1:40:57.160 --> 1:40:58.720
<v Speaker 2>if Byron is innocent.

1:40:59.040 --> 1:41:01.040
<v Speaker 1>Why didn't he just deny.

1:41:01.040 --> 1:41:04.679
<v Speaker 2>With all of the research and interviews we've done, there's

1:41:04.680 --> 1:41:08.640
<v Speaker 2>still so much you the listeners, and I haven't been

1:41:08.640 --> 1:41:12.000
<v Speaker 2>able to reconcile, Like the phone call Kelly says she

1:41:12.160 --> 1:41:17.000
<v Speaker 2>made from the gas station to Anastasia, whether or not

1:41:17.439 --> 1:41:20.680
<v Speaker 2>Anastasia went home that night. The possibility that some of

1:41:20.680 --> 1:41:24.640
<v Speaker 2>the eyewitnesses might have been wrong about what Anastasia was

1:41:24.680 --> 1:41:28.200
<v Speaker 2>wearing or even if they saw her at all. Why

1:41:28.240 --> 1:41:32.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't Anastasia fight back or run? Why did Justin take

1:41:32.080 --> 1:41:36.760
<v Speaker 2>his own life. Why didn't Byron deny anything in that

1:41:36.880 --> 1:41:37.880
<v Speaker 2>June fifth call?

1:41:38.760 --> 1:41:39.439
<v Speaker 1>Patrick Rock?

1:41:39.680 --> 1:41:42.680
<v Speaker 2>Where were you that night, Bob? Why did you go

1:41:42.760 --> 1:41:45.439
<v Speaker 2>to the exact spot where Anastasia's body was found in

1:41:45.479 --> 1:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>Lincoln's cemetery before anyone informed you where it was prosecutors?

1:41:51.439 --> 1:41:55.519
<v Speaker 2>Why allegedly were certain things withheld from Byron's defense team

1:41:56.080 --> 1:41:59.679
<v Speaker 2>and Sergeant Kilgore. Why did this investigation.

1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Seem to go so wrong?

1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:05.479
<v Speaker 2>Why were obvious things like phone records never pulled that

1:42:05.560 --> 1:42:09.960
<v Speaker 2>could have potentially solved this case right away? Because it

1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:13.920
<v Speaker 2>seems the way this investigation was handled is really why

1:42:13.960 --> 1:42:19.679
<v Speaker 2>we have so many unanswered questions. Also, why did Kelly

1:42:19.760 --> 1:42:23.400
<v Speaker 2>agree to talk with me She didn't have to, and

1:42:23.439 --> 1:42:28.000
<v Speaker 2>why didn't some people want to talk people who had

1:42:28.040 --> 1:42:33.120
<v Speaker 2>already written affidavits for Byron, Horton, Lance, doctor Thomas Young,

1:42:33.720 --> 1:42:37.719
<v Speaker 2>and Judge Charles Atwell. Like I said at the beginning

1:42:37.720 --> 1:42:40.639
<v Speaker 2>of this episode, although we have spent so much time

1:42:40.680 --> 1:42:44.040
<v Speaker 2>talking about Byron and Kelly and what can and can't

1:42:44.040 --> 1:42:47.679
<v Speaker 2>be proven in this case. We must remember that all

1:42:47.760 --> 1:42:52.679
<v Speaker 2>of this is about getting justice for Anastasia. Was justice served.

1:42:53.200 --> 1:42:56.640
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people, including Anastasia's family, say yes, the

1:42:56.760 --> 1:43:00.680
<v Speaker 2>real killer is in prison, case closed. Others say no,

1:43:01.240 --> 1:43:07.560
<v Speaker 2>the real killer is still out there or dead. Regardless,

1:43:08.000 --> 1:43:11.839
<v Speaker 2>the courts will decide if Byron deserves a new trial

1:43:12.280 --> 1:43:18.320
<v Speaker 2>or not. Thank you to everyone who participated, especially Anastasia's

1:43:18.360 --> 1:43:22.280
<v Speaker 2>sisters Fran and Emma. Our hearts go out to you

1:43:23.160 --> 1:43:33.160
<v Speaker 2>and your family. The views and opinions expressed in this

1:43:33.280 --> 1:43:38.080
<v Speaker 2>podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.

1:43:39.479 --> 1:43:43.160
<v Speaker 2>If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts

1:43:43.439 --> 1:43:47.880
<v Speaker 2>or a crisis, please no help is available. Call or

1:43:47.960 --> 1:43:51.200
<v Speaker 2>text nine to eight eight, or chat online at the

1:43:51.240 --> 1:43:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Suicide and Crisis Lifeline's website at nine eight eight lifeline

1:43:56.280 --> 1:43:59.960
<v Speaker 2>dot org. To see photos, maps and documents related to

1:44:00.120 --> 1:44:04.000
<v Speaker 2>this season's story, follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram

1:44:04.320 --> 1:44:12.160
<v Speaker 2>and at TRK podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is

1:44:12.200 --> 1:44:16.600
<v Speaker 2>a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me

1:44:17.120 --> 1:44:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for

1:44:21.920 --> 1:44:27.360
<v Speaker 2>AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman. Editing and sound design

1:44:27.560 --> 1:44:32.880
<v Speaker 2>by Cameron Taggi. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio

1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:39.559
<v Speaker 2>engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal council for

1:44:39.640 --> 1:45:03.520
<v Speaker 2>AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard