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Speaker 1: A warning.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help

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Speaker 2: is available.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: I've been working on this for more than a year,

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Speaker 2: and you know, like I have questions. Some people wrote

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Speaker 2: in they had a lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, You've never been afraid of hard questions because they

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Speaker 4: do force us to take a look at our case.

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Speaker 2: As this season is about to come to an end,

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Speaker 2: there are still so many unanswered questions, and especially since

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Speaker 2: the podcast has come out, I've gone back into the transcripts.

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Speaker 2: I've gone back to like, is there anything that I've missed.

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Speaker 2: I'm Leah Rothman. This is The Real Killer, Episode sixteen,

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Speaker 2: The Perfect Case. Before we can move forward with our finale,

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Speaker 2: I need to address something that's happened since our last episode.

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Speaker 2: Two days ago, I received an email from Byron's lead attorney,

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Speaker 2: Brian Russell on behalf of himself and the rest of

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Speaker 2: the legal team about last week's Littering Case episode. It

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Speaker 2: began in part like this, quote. We've finally digested last

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Speaker 2: week's podcast and are disappointed in how you decided to

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Speaker 2: approach the discrepancy with Kelly's misdemeanor. We've been nothing but open, honest,

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Speaker 2: and straightforward with you, and we are baffled by this

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Speaker 2: one point eighty in your tone and attitude toward us.

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Speaker 2: We've never concealed or obfuscated the fact that Kelly's ticket

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Speaker 2: on case net had another case number belonging to Brendan.

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Speaker 2: Brian continues. Throughout our work on this case, we believed

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Speaker 2: that Kelly's sentence of forty eight hours shock time, thirty

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Speaker 2: days in jail in two years probation with the suspended

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Speaker 2: execution of that sentence was accurate because the charge was

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Speaker 2: a Class A misdemeanor, she had skipped her court date

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Speaker 2: and only appeared when picked up on a warrant. We

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Speaker 2: believed that any discrepancy was the portion of the docket

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Speaker 2: that says that Kelly's sentence was quote consecutive with case number.

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Speaker 2: Brian continues, that's why we're confused when you said this

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Speaker 2: was a new development, that it kept you up all night.

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Speaker 2: Brian goes on to say, how in at least a

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Speaker 2: few documents and filings which they had shared with me

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Speaker 2: dating back to late twenty twenty three. This other case

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Speaker 2: number was mentioned in the footnotes. He says I never

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Speaker 2: asked about it. Then, Brian says there was a timeline

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Speaker 2: they shared where in the notes section this other case

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Speaker 2: number was mentioned. He says I never asked about it.

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Speaker 2: He also points out that there were emails exchanged where

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Speaker 2: I had questions about Kelly's docket and I never asked

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Speaker 2: about it then either. Brian wrote that I had plenty

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Speaker 2: of time and opportunity to bring this discrepancy up to them.

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Speaker 2: He's right, except the reason I never ever asked them

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Speaker 2: about it was because in the thousands of pages I

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Speaker 2: alone have had to go through, I never saw it.

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Speaker 2: Had I seen it, I would have asked about it

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Speaker 2: long ago. Had I seen it, the way we presented

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Speaker 2: Kelly's littering case when it first came up in episode

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Speaker 2: seven would have been very different. Again, I'm sorry, but

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Speaker 2: I never saw it. The last line in Brian's email

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Speaker 2: reads quote when I said I hoped you didn't feel misled.

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Speaker 2: I should have been clearer. We did not mislead you.

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Speaker 2: We did not hide anything from you. We did not

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Speaker 2: misrepresent anything to you. We were open, honest, upfront and

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Speaker 2: answered all of your questions to the best of our

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Speaker 2: ability in a complicated and fact intensive case. I remain

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Speaker 2: proud of our team and the work that we've done

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Speaker 2: to help free an innocent man who was deprived of

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Speaker 2: a fair trial. Let me be very clear, Byron's legal

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Speaker 2: team has been open, honest, and very available to answer

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Speaker 2: all of my questions all along the way, and I'm

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Speaker 2: grateful for that. And I never said they misled me.

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Speaker 2: I was just surprised that they knew about this other

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Speaker 2: case number, and in all of the times we'd spoken

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Speaker 2: about the docket it never came up. But whether or

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Speaker 2: not they knew about it is not the issue. The

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Speaker 2: reason I needed to interview them about the discrepancy was

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Speaker 2: first because I simply needed to ask them about this

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Speaker 2: other docket number, since again I had never seen it before.

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Speaker 2: And second, I needed to share with the lit Listen

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Speaker 2: and Byron's team that considering this other case number, I

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Speaker 2: now cannot confidently say that that was in fact Kelly's sentence,

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Speaker 2: and it needed to be addressed because I gave a

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Speaker 2: platform for the theory that that was Kelly's sentence, which

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Speaker 2: meant she might have been in some bigger trouble and

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Speaker 2: in turn might have cooperated with prosecutors in the case

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Speaker 2: against Byron. I know that Byron's legal team one hundred

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Speaker 2: percent believes that's Kelly's sentence, and hell, who knows it

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Speaker 2: might just be Kelly says it isn't without proof, I

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Speaker 2: just don't know either way. Okay, as we are about

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Speaker 2: to begin our last episode, I want to acknowledge that

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Speaker 2: even with all of the left turns that have happened

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Speaker 2: so far, we have never lost sight that this whole

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Speaker 2: podcast and investigation is in an attempt to get to

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Speaker 2: the truth about what happened to Anastasia. Now stay with me,

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Speaker 2: because we are not going to go chronologically. We are

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Speaker 2: going to start with my most recent interview with Byron,

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Speaker 2: which took place after both of Kelly's episodes came out.

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Speaker 2: Byron's lead attorney, Brian Russell, wanted to be on the call,

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Speaker 2: so that day, Brian and I speak for a few

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Speaker 2: minutes before Byron calls in.

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Speaker 1: Hey, Ala, Hi, how are you good? Good good good?

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, Brian says, there was so much

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Speaker 2: in Kelly's interview that confirms for him. She lied back

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Speaker 2: when she came forward, and she's still lying today. Brian says,

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Speaker 2: Kelly conveniently doesn't remember key things, then other times comes

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Speaker 2: up with wild new details, like a three way call

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Speaker 2: that happened between her, Byron, and Justin that night after

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Speaker 2: Anastasia was murdered. Brian says, that didn't happen. What do

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Speaker 2: you make of the level of conviction that she has

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Speaker 2: when she says Byron killed Anastasia and she knows it,

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Speaker 2: he knows it.

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Speaker 1: What do you What do you make of that?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I make of it that she wants people

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Speaker 5: to believe her. And then I also think, I mean,

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Speaker 5: she's admitted to having major problems with crack, cocaine and

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Speaker 5: meth anthetamy. Both of those drugs affect your brain in

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Speaker 5: a way that can lead to psychosis, which can lead

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Speaker 5: to the creation of false memories. So even where she

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Speaker 5: was when she came forward with the story, maybe she

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Speaker 5: does believe it. Maybe maybe in her mind these are

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Speaker 5: actual memories that she has created, right, but none of

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Speaker 5: them line up with any physical fact or any other

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Speaker 5: person that can support her story, any element of it.

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Speaker 6: We don't need to I don't.

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Speaker 5: Care why Kelly was I us know that she wied right,

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Speaker 5: I just know that her story isn't true because of

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Speaker 5: the physical evidence.

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Speaker 3: Here we go, Okay, hold on just saying.

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Speaker 1: Then Byron calls in.

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Speaker 7: Okay, Willa are you there?

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Speaker 1: I'm here?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Byron, are you there yet?

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Speaker 1: I am Hileiah Hi, Byron? How are you.

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Speaker 3: Better than some people would like me to be? But yeah, no,

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Speaker 3: it's always an under the circumstances kind of question.

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Speaker 7: But yeah, I'm good. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: So you've listened to the podcast. I mean, you emailed me,

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Speaker 2: you've listened to the podcast. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 2: very big question right off the bat. But any anything

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Speaker 2: or anything that you want to say right off the bat,

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I think we kind of touched on this a little

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Speaker 3: bit earlier. When I first emailed you, I said that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I was kind of withholding John and was sort of waiting,

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Speaker 3: you know, for something, for some sort of strong reaction.

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Speaker 3: I guess one way or the other or some way

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Speaker 3: that I might contribute, and it never really materialized for me.

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Speaker 3: So I think as the podcasts went on and I

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Speaker 3: heard more, there was a certain point where, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was no longer able, so I actually haven't listened past,

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Speaker 3: I think because A seventh and so everything that I've

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Speaker 3: gotten since then has been kind of second hit. And

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Speaker 3: it's interesting because late ever since that happened, it seems

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Speaker 3: like that was really when things It seemed like that

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Speaker 3: was when for me, at least, more interesting content started

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Speaker 3: to come up. There was stuff that I had never

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Speaker 3: heard before. You did interviews with people that you know

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Speaker 3: that I had never necessarily even heard say certain things

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Speaker 3: that they were saying, and so, you know, way I

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Speaker 3: was glad that I wasn't able to listen because some

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Speaker 3: of that stuff was kind of upsetting and a reminder

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Speaker 3: I think of how really I guess I've lived in

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Speaker 3: a bubble, and you know, it's not like it's been

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Speaker 3: an echo chamber, but I'm in a sense I'm kind

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Speaker 3: of protected from a lot of people's opinions as far

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Speaker 3: as the case goes, and so it was kind of

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Speaker 3: a return to a not very good place as far

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Speaker 3: as that goes, you know, just being reminded of those

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Speaker 3: people and their and their opinions and you know, some

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Speaker 3: of the stuff that they said in that way.

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Speaker 2: In your email, you said that you were waiting to

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Speaker 2: listen to everything or waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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Speaker 2: What was the other shoe? Like, what were you what

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Speaker 2: did you mean by the other shoe?

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Speaker 3: So that's I think the sort of latent streak of pessimism.

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Speaker 7: That I've got.

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Speaker 3: It was just sort of waiting for things to take

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Speaker 3: an ugly turn. And just from the sound of it,

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Speaker 3: Kelly's episodes were were that a turn at least as

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Speaker 3: far as I'm concerned, you know, I was, I mean, honest,

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Speaker 3: I was initially a little bothered by the idea that

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Speaker 3: she would come forward after all of the information had

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Speaker 3: come in, after she'd had a chance, had a chance

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Speaker 3: to listen to all of the previous episodes. That really

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Speaker 3: hit a bigger pature and a greater understanding of what

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Speaker 3: was going on with the case and with things that

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Speaker 3: I just I know that she wasn't previously aware of

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Speaker 3: as far as you know, factual, and so it was

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Speaker 3: I just my my sort of kneejered reaction to that

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Speaker 3: was to be a little angry, I guess about just

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Speaker 3: the I guess giving her the platform to just sort

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Speaker 3: of spout whatever she's going to spout with this new

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Speaker 3: inform nation to her, or at least after she'd had

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Speaker 3: time to formulate whatever she was going to formulate, and

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Speaker 3: I don't know, And so that was sort of my

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Speaker 3: reaction to that. I felt was a little I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to say unfair, because that's not really

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Speaker 3: I don't know, that's not quite the right right word

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Speaker 3: for it.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know that her not speaking, I asked

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Speaker 2: her to listen to all of the episodes before making

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Speaker 2: a decision on whether or not to talk. So it

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Speaker 2: wasn't like she did that on her own, I said,

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Speaker 2: because she was considering talking, and I just said, just

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Speaker 2: just wait and listen to all of the episodes and

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Speaker 2: then make a decision one way or another.

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Speaker 1: So just you know, that's on me. That's on me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I understand that, you know, you're trying to

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Speaker 3: ensure that the person is going to have an understanding

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Speaker 3: that this is not going to be us, you know,

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Speaker 3: getting helly on and hit her with a bunch of

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Speaker 3: accusations or whatever. I mean, it makes sense because you know,

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Speaker 3: you wanted her to see that you're coming in this

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Speaker 3: with an even hand. But you know, I think that

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Speaker 3: the net effect was the same. I think that her

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Speaker 3: having had an opportunity to hear all of that did

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Speaker 3: give her I think of a little bit better preparedness,

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Speaker 3: I think for some of the stuff and some of

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Speaker 3: the directions that things were going to go. Although based

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Speaker 3: on what I've heard, I mean, she really didn't use

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Speaker 3: that to your advantage much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: You said you haven't listened to the episodes yet, but

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Speaker 2: I mean, right, it to me, just at face value,

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Speaker 2: didn't seem like somebody who had studied the podcast and

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Speaker 2: came in with you know, you know, perfect answers to questions.

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Speaker 2: I mean, sure, it's meandering, it's all over the map.

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Speaker 2: It didn't feel calculated to me. But but that is side.

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Speaker 1: We move on. Now.

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Speaker 2: I am a little meandering going between questions I have

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Speaker 2: for Byron and asking him to respond to some of

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Speaker 2: Kelly's allegations. Let's talk about what did Why did Anastasia

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Speaker 2: have a stun gun?

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Speaker 1: You know, to the best of your knowledge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't.

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Speaker 7: I don't really know.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember as I were talking about it as

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Speaker 3: far as like reasons or anything. I don't even remember

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Speaker 3: when she bought it, or or really or anything about it.

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Speaker 7: I knew that he had one.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I also, again I knew that Byron

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Speaker 3: Mercia that Justin had one.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a stun gun?

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Speaker 7: I did?

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Speaker 1: Why did you have one?

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Speaker 3: I bought it, well, hardly because they had them. And

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Speaker 3: first just for me personally, it seemed like.

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Speaker 7: Not a bad idea to own one.

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Speaker 3: The neighborhood that I lived in was not especially I

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Speaker 3: want to say it was a bad neighborhood.

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Speaker 7: It wasn't great. I lived around a lot of bars and.

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Speaker 3: Clubs, and you know, there was a there was a

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Speaker 3: bit of violence that would kind of sort of erupt

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Speaker 3: here and there, fight assaults, muggings. I was mugged just

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Speaker 3: down the street.

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Speaker 7: From my apartment one time at my point, you know,

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Speaker 7: for like ten dollars in my wallet, you know. And

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Speaker 7: I've been at.

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Speaker 3: One point beaten up just I guess because I look

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Speaker 3: different outside of a Country and Western bar that was

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Speaker 3: in that area. Like three guys just attacked me, and

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Speaker 3: you know, so it seemed like not an unreasonable thing to.

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Speaker 1: Have, Tara.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you know this, but Tara told Sergeant Kilgore

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Speaker 2: the story that all of you three, I think, tased

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Speaker 2: a homeless guy who were all there for the tasing

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Speaker 2: of this homeless guy sitting on some steps he was

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Speaker 2: drunk in Westport?

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Speaker 1: What why? What can you tell me about that?

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Speaker 3: I have absolutely no recall of anything like that happening,

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Speaker 3: So I don't know where Kara got that from or

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Speaker 3: what she was talking about.

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Speaker 2: What do you make of Anastasia's stun gun being found

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Speaker 2: on her bed?

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Speaker 7: That's a good.

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Speaker 3: Question, and I don't really I don't really.

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Speaker 7: Have an answer. I can only wonder about.

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Speaker 3: It, and I'd rather not use this platform to speculate.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, let's talk about some of the stuff

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Speaker 2: that Kelly said in her interview. So let's start with well,

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Speaker 2: keeping with the homeless people in Westport, Kelly said that

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Speaker 2: you paid an overweight homeless guy named Slog to do

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Speaker 2: jumping jacks as a way to humiliate him.

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Speaker 1: Did that happen? Why did you do that?

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Speaker 7: Okay?

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Speaker 3: So this is I think a really good example of

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Speaker 3: Kelly taking a seed of something and turning it issue

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Speaker 3: something else. What happened? Uh, there was a guy who

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Speaker 3: also panhandled kind of a mass area, and we justin

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Speaker 3: Anastasia and I I don't remember if Kelly was there,

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Speaker 3: but I know that the three of us at least were,

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Speaker 3: and Dustin had just bought some donuts and we were

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Speaker 3: walking down the street. He had a box of a

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Speaker 3: dozen donuts and we saw this guy and he asked

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Speaker 3: us for some spare change, and Justin said, you know,

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Speaker 3: well out of a patenty that we were willing to come.

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Speaker 3: And so Justin said that I'll gi you a donut

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Speaker 3: if you do some jumping jacks, and.

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Speaker 7: And the guy.

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Speaker 3: Readily agreed and gnu and did some jumping jacks and

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Speaker 3: Justin but haven't don't that it was one of those

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Speaker 3: things where I really I was not aultigether comfortable with

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Speaker 3: the situation, but I was still in a kind of

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Speaker 3: like sort of moment way a hubist bias. And of course,

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Speaker 3: you know, not my proudest moment.

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Speaker 7: By any means, but yeah, I mean that kind of happened.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay. So Kelly tells the story.

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Speaker 2: That you all went to that Mormon temple, you were

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Speaker 2: dressed up as a priest, and you did this big

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Speaker 2: tour of the church because there was a plan to

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Speaker 2: kidnap you know, the bishop or something and hold him

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Speaker 2: for ransom money. But she says, you know, you spent

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Speaker 2: this whole Saturday on this tour and what can you

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Speaker 2: tell me about that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we we did.

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Speaker 7: Take a short see r LDS Temple.

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Speaker 3: On South Chrystler and Independence Surius, the States Fire Building.

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Speaker 7: And.

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Speaker 3: I did go wearing a clerical shirt that I owned.

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Speaker 3: You know, it was one of those one of those

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Speaker 3: things where it felt really transgressive. You know, we were

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Speaker 3: feeling pretty like goofy and like we were really just

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Speaker 3: by being there. I felt like we were doing something

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Speaker 3: we probably shouldn't be. So it wasn't really a bad thing,

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Speaker 3: but you know, that was something that we definitely enjoyed doing.

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Speaker 7: It was you know, or you.

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Speaker 3: Know, if it was like kind of pushing.

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Speaker 7: Some boundaries, then we.

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Speaker 3: As a as a general rule, we were all for

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Speaker 3: that sort of thing. As far as a plan, this.

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Speaker 7: Actually came up at my trial briefly.

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Speaker 3: They wanted to introduce something that Kelly had talked about

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Speaker 3: this then too, trying to say that we had justin

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Speaker 3: Stasia and I had a plan to blow up a

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Speaker 3: church or take the like the president or whatever they

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Speaker 3: head of the church hostage or something. So I would

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Speaker 3: say to that that we did have a plan.

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Speaker 7: In name only.

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Speaker 3: We were sitting around one night and it became this

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Speaker 3: ridiculous sort of thing. The plan in question calls for

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Speaker 3: us getting some T four and having night vision goggles

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00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. Clearly, this was not an actual

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Speaker 3: plan that anybody was going to carry out or anticipated

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Speaker 3: plan carrying out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, I think that she uses that as

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Speaker 2: an example of some of like that and going to

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Speaker 2: rob Justin's.

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Speaker 1: Parents, that there were these.

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Speaker 2: Plans that never came to fruition, so that when the

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Speaker 2: plan came up to kill Anastasia, she didn't necessarily believe

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Speaker 2: it because there had been so many crazy plans before

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Speaker 2: that she didn't think it was anything that you guys

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Speaker 2: would follow through with.

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Speaker 8: Okay, Okay.

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Speaker 2: She says that there was the night of October twenty second,

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Speaker 2: and this was a new detail that she shared with me.

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Speaker 2: On the night of October twenty second, there was a

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Speaker 2: three way phone call that night after every one was

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Speaker 2: back home, between you, Kelly and Justin. Was there a

359
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 2: three way call that evening?

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Speaker 1: No, that's no, you never. You never spoke with Justin

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Speaker 1: that night.

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Speaker 7: No.

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Speaker 3: He dropped me off at my place and I didn't

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Speaker 3: speak with him until.

365
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Speaker 7: The next morning. Okay.

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Speaker 2: Kelly said that this was a new another new detail

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Speaker 2: she had told the story before, where she said, like,

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Speaker 2: how could you have killed her? Speaking about Anastasia? You

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Speaker 2: know you're a murderer. How do you feel about that?

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Speaker 2: And you know, and the story i'd heard this before,

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Speaker 2: we hadn't heard this before that she said that, you said,

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Speaker 2: I don't consider myself a murderer. Murderer, doesn't feel bad,

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Speaker 2: and I feel bad about what happened, or something to

374
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Speaker 2: that effect. But this time that she told the story,

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Speaker 2: she said that you grabbed her by the neck and

376
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Speaker 2: threw her or slammed her. Again is the wall did

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Speaker 2: that happen?

378
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Speaker 6: No?

379
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Speaker 3: No, I never laid my hand on Kelly in any

380
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Speaker 3: violent ways. That's not been my character.

381
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Speaker 7: I don't That's just not me.

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Speaker 3: And I just like to add briefly one thing.

383
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Speaker 7: I think that.

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Speaker 3: When you say, you know, oh, here's a new detail,

385
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Speaker 3: I think, really what you're saying is that that here's.

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Speaker 7: Some more bullshit.

387
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Speaker 3: I just think I don't know it is It is

388
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: so ridiculous to me, this idea that you know, she

389
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Speaker 3: just keeps piling on and piling on, and that anybody

390
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 3: believes her if these were things that actually happened, These

391
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: were things that were troubling her or whatever, she would

392
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 3: have come out with them years ago. There was the

393
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,160
Speaker 3: time for unburdening was two thousand one, two thousand and two.

394
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Speaker 3: At this point, I feel like anybody giving any credibility

395
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 3: whatsoever to anything she is saying that his quote unquote

396
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: knew is the officer.

397
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Speaker 2: Kelly also said that you had told other people like

398
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Speaker 2: Abraham and Tara that you killed Anastasia.

399
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Speaker 1: What do you have to say about that?

400
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 3: And that's another great example of that. Again, you know

401
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 3: Brom and Tara. While you know Kara's not with us anymore,

402
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 3: she was not a person in Vince words and Brom.

403
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 7: Never was either.

404
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: If they had something to say, if they knew something,

405
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: they are so transparent. Tarah was so transparent about everything.

406
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 3: She didn't keep anything in. This would have come out

407
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: so long ago, becad it actually happened. So that's that's

408
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: all I have to say about that.

409
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 2: Okay, Kelly says that there was a time that you

410
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: welded a pitchfork to your car and put a chicken

411
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: chicken carcass on it and drove around town with that.

412
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's actually kind of true. So, like I said,

413
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 3: we were always into kind of transgressive stuff. I had

414
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 3: a group of friends who we we all had these big,

415
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 3: old cars and we One of my friends was a

416
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 3: welder and an artist, and he said, hey, you've had

417
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: this car for a little while, let's let's put something

418
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 3: on it. And I said, okay, what have you got?

419
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 3: I went ounce to the garage and he kind of

420
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Speaker 3: a pitchfork, and I said, absolutely not. And my other

421
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: friend was like, no, no, I think that's I think

422
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 3: you have to do that. I think that's going to

423
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: be the thing. So I consented, and he welded the

424
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: head of this pitchfork to the hood of my car.

425
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:18,239
Speaker 3: About a week or two later, I was over at

426
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 3: my friend Robert house and Abraham was there and they

427
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 3: had apparently they had thought out an eight pound fire

428
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 3: chicken and had no intention of actually cooking. And while

429
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 3: I was using the restroom at one point from took

430
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: the chicken out to the car and put it on

431
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 3: the hitch work. And then when we when I went

432
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: to go leave that new thing, I saw it there

433
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: and was just like okay, because it was another We

434
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: pranked each other all the time like this. All my

435
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 3: friends that had these cars, we oftentimes would put food

436
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 3: on them, and there was kind of a rule that

437
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 3: you couldn't remove the food to you know, let the

438
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 3: weather and animals carry it away. So I was stuck

439
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 3: with a chicken stuck to front of my car. And

440
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: I know that a lot got made out of that,

441
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: calling it a chicken carcass. I think it's one good example.

442
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: It would have been dinner, just like a week before Adams,

443
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 3: but it was not finished.

444
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: It was just a goof The next two are a

445
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: little uncomfortable, but I'm just going to ask you. So

446
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: she also, Kelly also said that you participated in necrophilia.

447
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 7: I heard about this.

448
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: I was in a way shot and also disgusted, but

449
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 3: also it's so outlandish that I had to laugh. It

450
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: is so unbelievable.

451
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 7: I just I can't.

452
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: Even fathom the idea of this. Unequivocally, No, no, absolutely not.

453
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: Did you ever say it to her as as like, you.

454
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 7: Know just what I think I even know.

455
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 3: I don't think I've.

456
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 7: Even joked about something like.

457
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: That, Like I don't know, but I just I really

458
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 3: believe that that's something that she's just come.

459
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: Up with on her own, And you understand, I just

460
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: have to I mean, I have to give you a

461
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: chance to respond to this this stuff because she says it.

462
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: She also said that you told her, and again this

463
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: is uncomfortable, But she also said that you told her

464
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: the best way for you, or the quickest way when

465
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 2: you were masturbating, was to do it over dead animals.

466
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absurd too, same or Eason, maybe even more so.

467
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 7: I don't know.

468
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: It's hard to weigh those sorts of things. I love animals,

469
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: not in that way.

470
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: Okay, this one is definitely more serious. Kelly said that

471
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: there was a plan to kill your father to basically

472
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: keep him from having to die a very painful death

473
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: or a prolonged death, and because you know he had HIV.

474
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: What do you have to say about that? She tells

475
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: a very specific story that you were going to lure

476
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: your father out to like some cornfields in the middle

477
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: of nowhere and say that you had, you know, car trouble,

478
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,719
Speaker 2: and while he was under the hood of the car,

479
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: you were going to shoot him.

480
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: What do you have to say about that?

481
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: There's a lot that I could probably say about that,

482
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 3: but I'll say this, I do think it's interesting that

483
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 3: the same or that he's two stories that she's concocted

484
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: one about a death that actually took place, and another

485
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 3: about a death as she says was planned to take place.

486
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 3: That they both involved driving out somewhere to a secluded

487
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 3: thought and shooting someone. I don't I don't really know

488
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: what to make about that, other than you know, it

489
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: seems like it's it's just kind of a motif. I

490
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: guess that shows up in her imaginings. No, that plan

491
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: never used it.

492
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 7: The idea of that is reprehensible.

493
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 6: To me.

494
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: I love my father, but the idea of putting him

495
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 3: out of some of that and misery, uh, that that

496
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 3: was not something I had a hard enough time really

497
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: making the decision of when the time came to take

498
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 3: them off fights for the words, that was incredibly difficult,

499
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: and I would say the hardest decision I ever had

500
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 3: to make. And to claim that that was something that

501
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: I wouldn't impasily, it's disgusting that plan never existed.

502
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 7: That thought never entered my head.

503
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 3: It's just poor bullshit.

504
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: Well, another question I have is about the June fifth

505
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: recorded phone call.

506
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: There is a part.

507
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: I mean, so much is made about the should or shouldn't,

508
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: and we've already talked about why you didn't just say

509
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? You know you didn't deny it,

510
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: but not about that part. My question is about there's

511
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: a part in the phone call where you say to her,

512
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: just say you don't remember. Kelly says, don't you remember?

513
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: You don't remember what we said at all? And you say,

514
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: I do. But what is what were you referring to there?

515
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: And I know it's been a long time, but you know,

516
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 2: what is the idea? What is the story? I mean,

517
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: what are you about to say? There?

518
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 7: Oh? I have no idea.

519
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 3: I you know that that conversation was twenty.

520
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 7: Four years ago. Whatever I might have had on my

521
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 7: mind at that time, and was about.

522
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: To say, I don't know.

523
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: Did you think that you were being recorded?

524
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: Again? I don't really remember the conversation, so but no,

525
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: I mean I wouldn't. I don't believe that that ever

526
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: would have crossed my mind.

527
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: What do you think happened that night?

528
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 3: I know that some things that I've you know, learned

529
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: over the years have inclined me into one theory or another.

530
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 3: But here's the thing. I would argue that I'm sitting

531
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 3: in prison today, and I set in prison since I

532
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 3: was twenty two years old, more than half a lifetime

533
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: ago is from where I say now because people speculated,

534
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: and because people acted on theories or or talked openly

535
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: about theories without any supporting evidence, without anything backing up

536
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: what they had to say, just based on feelings, selposition, suspicion,

537
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: whatever you want to call them, and I refuse, both

538
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 3: morally and constitutionally.

539
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 7: I will not do.

540
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 3: The same because I don't know looking forward, you know

541
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 3: what those things that I speculated about might be construed as,

542
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: or what they might hew to somebody else.

543
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 7: I just I can't do that, and.

544
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 3: So I've basically resigned myself to ignorance until more comes in,

545
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: until I have something like really substantive, until I have

546
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 3: something that says, oh, we now know ex Lly and Z.

547
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: I understand.

548
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: Is there anything else you think I should know or

549
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 2: you want the listeners to know, or anything you want

550
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: to say that I haven't asked.

551
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 7: I'm thinking.

552
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 3: I think the big takeaway here for anybody listening really

553
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: is just that there is a lot of information. In

554
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: this case, there's a lot of stuff to have to

555
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: sit through in order to come to anything like a

556
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 3: reasoned conclusion about what happened, or at least a reason

557
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: and conclusion about whether I had anything to do with it.

558
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 3: But I think that if you pay attention, if you're

559
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 3: if you're really like looking at facts, really paying attention,

560
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: it's going to come away with a pretty clear picture

561
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 3: that Kelly is absolutely full of shit.

562
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 7: She is a very very.

563
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 3: Troubled person, I think, more so now than even what

564
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: I knew.

565
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 6: But that.

566
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: You know, really it just comes down to not so

567
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: much what she says today or or even really if some.

568
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 7: Of them more exaggerated or.

569
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 3: Over the top stuff that she spent years ago. It

570
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 3: just comes down to whether or not it atches what

571
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 3: we know to be fact. And that's I guess what

572
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: I would encourage everybody to look at what we know

573
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: to be fat you see that it has absolutely nothing

574
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 3: to do with me. That all those facts point away

575
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: from me. I think the decision is free sream to

576
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,479
Speaker 3: make as far as whether or not you think I had.

577
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 7: An aging stations then.

578
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: So now, going back in time, the morning after I

579
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,959
Speaker 2: interviewed Kelly in Kansas City, I met with Byron's legal

580
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: team at Brian Russell's law offices for what was supposed

581
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: to be our final interview. And obviously this was before

582
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: both of Kelly's episodes came out and the whole littering

583
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: case thing happened. The entire team was there, including Brian,

584
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: Nicole Gordon, Sean O'Brien, and Quinn O'Brien. Their paralegal, Jenna

585
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: was there too. Because I had four microphones for the

586
00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: five of us, Quinn and Nicole share one. Okay, so

587
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: we'll just go around the table. Have you been listening

588
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 2: to the podcast, and if so, Sean, what is standing

589
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: out to you, any new revelations?

590
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: What has stood out to you?

591
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 6: I have been listening to the podcast. I read the

592
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 6: transcript of Kelly Moffitt's right along with Kilgore where she

593
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 6: goes to Lincoln Cemetery, and it's one thing to see

594
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 6: it in the transcript, but that's one tape I had

595
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 6: never listened to. She has never been to Lincoln Cemetery,

596
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 6: and that's very clear. She can't pick out the you

597
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 6: know where this where Anastasia was found, But if you've

598
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 6: been to Lincoln Cemetery and you knew where she had been,

599
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 6: you would never miss that. It's impossible to miss. She

600
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 6: also said that she could see headlights going by, and

601
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 6: if you've been to Lincoln Cemetery. You also know that

602
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 6: it's impossible. So that's the one thing that stands out

603
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 6: to me. And then look listening to what other people say.

604
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 6: You know, there are a couple people who say they

605
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 6: believe Kelly, but they believe Kelly because Kelly is such

606
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 6: a good liar.

607
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: You know.

608
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: The only way.

609
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 6: To know whether Kelly's lying or not is to look

610
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 6: at what she says and find something in the outside

611
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 6: world that would say that's truthful. There's only one statement

612
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 6: where you can do that, the one where Anastasia got

613
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 6: out of the car. Don Rand says that happened, Bob

614
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 6: Whitbullshugen says that happened. At least three other unnamed witnesses

615
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 6: that were hidden from us say that happened. The physical

616
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 6: evidence says that happened. And so the one truthful statement

617
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 6: is her first one, and that's really clear, and I

618
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 6: think the podcast kind of makes that point. So to me,

619
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 6: it's how well does the lawyer at the trial take

620
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 6: on those issues and expose credibility, you know, where it

621
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 6: needs to be. The other thing we know about Kelly

622
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 6: is that she is a drug addict. An addict line,

623
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 6: It's just a fact of life.

624
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: We don't need to go for here's Brian.

625
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 9: What I've found interesting about the podcast is just to

626
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 9: hear a story told through someone else that we've been

627
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 9: working on and trying to figure out for, you know,

628
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 9: several years at this point, and so it's really a

629
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 9: lot of people on the team or and past members

630
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 9: of the team would tell you that, you know, when

631
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 9: you're working on this case, you keep waiting for well,

632
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 9: wait what he was convicted. There must be more evidence

633
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 9: than just Kelly and the tape, and you keep waiting

634
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 9: for something to come out somebody else to say say, well,

635
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 9: actually I knew this about Byron, or I saw this

636
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 9: thing happen, and it never happens. It's always Byron was

637
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 9: a decent guy.

638
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 8: Yeah he was.

639
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 9: He could come across as weird or whatever. But even

640
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 9: this past within the past week, we've gotten other people

641
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 9: that come forward with statements for us, saying I was

642
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 9: in need and Byron helped me.

643
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 8: He was the only person to help me.

644
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: You know, I think that person Brian is referring to

645
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 2: as a woman named Kim Yeoman. She's written to me too,

646
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: wanting me to know that Byron is a good person.

647
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,919
Speaker 2: Incapable of committing a crime like murder. She said, during

648
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: some of her darkest days when she was a homeless

649
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: teen living in abandoned houses in Kansas City, Byron would

650
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: bring her food and was just a kind, generous, safe,

651
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: trustworthy person to be around. Kim wanted me to know

652
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: that she has reviewed many court documents and she has

653
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 2: found no credible evidence linking Byron to Anastasia's murder. She

654
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: believes Byron is innocent. Here's Nicole.

655
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 10: I would say that there are a lot of nuances

656
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 10: to the story that didn't get told just because there's

657
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 10: not enough time. The one that I would point out

658
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 10: would be the timeline. I always go back to the timeline.

659
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 10: Anastasia called Justin's apartment from the Dairy Queen, and we

660
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 10: know that because she came back inside and told Don

661
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 10: Wright that her boyfriend didn't want to pick her up

662
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 10: because he'd already made plans with his best friend. Anastasia

663
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 10: could have made that call to Justin had Justin, Kelly,

664
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 10: and Byron been on their way to pick her up

665
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 10: at Dairy Queen from Lenexa. So it's the little things

666
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 10: like that that are weaved throughout the entire case that

667
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 10: let me know in the beginning and even today and

668
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 10: even as I hear you tell the story, yeah that

669
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 10: you know, it just confirms what the facts.

670
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 9: Say, right, because as we're working on the habeas and

671
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 9: weighing that timeline back out again for the tenth time.

672
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 9: According to Kelly's story and her timeline, the fabricated timeline,

673
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 9: they pick her up Byron and Justin pick her up

674
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 9: at her place at four o'clock. They go straight to

675
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 9: the gas station where she calls Anastasia. And this is

676
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 9: at four fifteen, four thirty, and she says, I've I've

677
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 9: spoke to Anastasia then, and Anastasia says, where are we meeting?

678
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 9: And Kelly says at the Dairy Queen. Well, according to

679
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 9: Diane and Fran, Anastasia was already on her way to

680
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 9: Mount Washington or at Mount Washington when Kelly says she's making.

681
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 10: That phone call and stayed at Mount Washington for an hour, right,

682
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 10: waited and then for an hour and told a couple

683
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 10: test driving a car in the cemetery.

684
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 8: Story, No, that's okay.

685
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: It told a couple who is.

686
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 10: Test driving a car in the cemetery. They stopped her

687
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 10: and they said the cemetery is about to close.

688
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: It's chili.

689
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 10: So they were checking on her and they said, you know,

690
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 10: just to let you know, and she said, that's okay.

691
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 10: I'm waiting for my boyfriend. And that was an hour

692
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 10: after she was dropped off.

693
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 8: And she's in Mount Washington.

694
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: To Mount Washington, it's the lapage. And she asked what

695
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: time it was because she was supposed to be meeting

696
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: her boyfriend.

697
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 9: Yes, and they say five thirty right, which and then

698
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 9: back to Kelly's fabrication, So we make this phone call. Then,

699
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 9: according to Kelly, well, we make this phone I make

700
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 9: this phone call to quote unquote lure Anastasia out. Again,

701
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 9: there's so many things that it's hard to keep track

702
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 9: of them all because not only was this not a

703
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 9: phone called a lure Anastasia out, Anastasia already had plans.

704
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 8: With justin that day.

705
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 9: Her stepmom talked about it, friends talked about it. And

706
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 9: so then then Kelly says, after I quote unquote lure

707
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 9: her out, we go straight from Lenexa. We go straight

708
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 9: from Lenexa to Dairy Queen and Independence, which she estimates

709
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 9: would take forty five minutes, maybe closer to thirty minutes

710
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 9: rush hour.

711
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was Russi hour on a Wednesday.

712
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 9: So they get there at what five point fifteen five

713
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 9: point thirty according to Kelly's story, Again, Anastasia is still

714
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 9: in Mount Washington talking to the Lapages at that time.

715
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 9: So again Kelly's story is false. That also conflicts with

716
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 9: what Dawn Wright and Suliman Solid said, which was they

717
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 9: picked her up after dark. They picked up Anastagia up

718
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 9: after dark. And like what Nicole was just saying, we

719
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 9: know that Anastasia called Justin's apartment and talked to Justin.

720
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 9: So Kelly's story doesn't account for that because she says

721
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 9: we went straight from the gas station to the dairy Queen. Well,

722
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 9: then how was Anastasia talking to Justin as a part

723
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 9: man if you went straight from dairy from straight from

724
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 9: the gas station to dairy queen with no stops?

725
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: And I understand because I have questions about the call

726
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,399
Speaker 2: that she made from the from the Phillip sixty six

727
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: station near her house, right, Like, it has never made

728
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: sense to me based on Anastasia's plan to meet Justin

729
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: at Mount Washington Cemetery, that she would have that they

730
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: would have needed Kelly to lure Anastasia to the Dairy Queen.

731
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,839
Speaker 2: It's never made sense to me. I asked her about that,

732
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: and she was like, I don't know. All I know

733
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 2: is that I made a call and I spoke with Anastasia.

734
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 2: So then my mind goes to, Okay, well could Anastasia,

735
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: But then it messes with the timeframe. But could Anastasia

736
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: have called from the Dairy Queen and left that phone

737
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: number on Justin's answering machine which had been erased some

738
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: of those early messages were gone. Could they have called

739
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: the answering machine found out where Anastasia was because and

740
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: I have some of the trial or I don't know

741
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: if it's her deposition or the trial transcript, but you know,

742
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: she says that Anastasia believed that they were meeting at

743
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 2: the Dairy Queen. That might have been the secondary plan. Right,

744
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: The first plan I absolutely believe was Mount Washington.

745
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 1: Right.

746
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 2: Everyone knew it was Mount Washington, Betsy, Diane fran everyone

747
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:30,839
Speaker 2: knew they.

748
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: Were meeting at Mount Washington.

749
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: I wonder, and it's because I have to ask questions,

750
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 2: but I wondered, did something change in that afternoon? Because

751
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 2: then I was asking myself, did Kelly assuming Kelly's telling

752
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 2: the truth. Did Kelly call and speak with Anastasia before

753
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: Fran got home that day?

754
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 4: Okay, so they're luring her out to be alone somewhere

755
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 4: to kill her, but they changed the place where she's

756
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 4: supposed to be alone to kill her by going through

757
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 4: all these extra steps.

758
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is I have to ask all these questions, right, yeah,

759
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: sure so? And then I looked at what everyone said

760
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: in terms of time, it seemed like friend got home

761
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: at four, So I don't think that Kelly could have

762
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: called before she got home. So then I'm like crossing

763
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 2: that off, you know, so, but I have to ask

764
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: the questions.

765
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,760
Speaker 11: That's exactly how we work the case.

766
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 10: And just a thought on what you're saying is that

767
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,959
Speaker 10: if the state didn't believe her story either, if they had, they.

768
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 11: Would wouldn't needed her to record the conversation with Byron.

769
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: I mean, she definitely had credibility issues because she was

770
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: known to have lied, right, So this phone call has

771
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 2: never made sense to me. But maybe what happened was

772
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: what prosecutors alleged at trial, that Anastasia had paged Byron

773
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 2: from the dairy queen and that's the number that was

774
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 2: dialed for Kelly at the gas station. Again, law enforcement

775
00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,439
Speaker 2: never pulled those payphone records from the gas station and

776
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: the dairy queen.

777
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 9: When she gives that September twenty first statement to Kilgore,

778
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 9: he says, well, when you told me in your initial

779
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 9: statement back in October of nineteen ninety seven, you seemed

780
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 9: pretty confident about that story. And then even a few

781
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 9: days later, I took you out to ride around and

782
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 9: you took me on a You took me exactly, it

783
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 9: took me where you said you guys went, and you

784
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 9: seemed pretty confident about that. You even drew me a map, which,

785
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 9: as an aside, wasn't and still has never been produced.

786
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 9: We've never seen that map that Kelly drew in her

787
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 9: initial statement. And she says, well, I was so confident

788
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 9: because before we talked with you for the first time,

789
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 9: Byron took me back out there and drove me around.

790
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 9: Except that there was literally no time for that to

791
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 9: happen because she was with her grandma all day the

792
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 9: day that Anastasia's body was found on the twenty third

793
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 9: that evening, and she even admitted in one of her

794
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 9: statements that Byron's car was broken down, her mom and Evelyn,

795
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 9: Byron's mom had to give them rides everywhere. Evelyn had

796
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 9: given Byron a ride to the Moffat residence where they

797
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 9: hung out that evening of the twenty third, and then

798
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 9: on the morning of the twenty fourth, Debbie Moffatt gives

799
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 9: them a ride to the Jackson County Sheriff's Department to

800
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 9: give their statement to Kilgore.

801
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 8: So her story is just it never it.

802
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 9: Didn't make sense, and it shouldn't have made sense to

803
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 9: the Prosecutor's office and the Sheriff's department if they were

804
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 9: doing their job at the very beginning.

805
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 2: I reach out to Kelly with this question from Byron's

806
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,279
Speaker 2: legal team. When did Byron actually have the time to

807
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: take her around to show her the area of Truman

808
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: Road and the I four thirty five. Kelly sends me

809
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 2: a voice message answering this question. She says, after Anastasia's

810
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: murder was reported on the news the night of October

811
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 2: twenty third, Byron drove her around so she could learn

812
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: the area in case they had to speak with police.

813
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 12: Noon we found out like on like the four or

814
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 12: five o'clock news, and then I came to your house

815
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 12: and stayed the night, and that's when we made it

816
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 12: a point to drive around and show me.

817
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 13: This is just so irritating.

818
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 12: I hate dealing with anything with him because he just

819
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 12: he's trying to rely on the fact that the investigation

820
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 12: was stupid and botched and they didn't do a good job.

821
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 12: He's trying to pick that apart and hoping to God

822
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 12: that something sticks. He throws anything against the wall and

823
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 12: sees it. He gets people fighting over these like little

824
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 12: tiny indiscretions and stuff so that you don't look at

825
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 12: the fact that he's fucking guilty as hell.

826
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,360
Speaker 2: For the record, I was curious what was said about

827
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 2: where exactly Kelly and Byron spent the night of October

828
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: twenty third. At trial, Kelly said they spent the night

829
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 2: at Byron's mom's apartment. She said the next morning, her

830
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: mom picked them up from Byron's and took them to

831
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department to be interviewed. In Byron's first interview,

832
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: he said his mom dropped him and Kelly off at

833
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 2: her house that night because he had to go in

834
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 2: for a job interview that evening, and Kelly came with him.

835
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 2: No mention if they spent the night there though, So

836
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: did they go to Byron's house after the job interview

837
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: or did they stay at Kelly's. Who knows where they

838
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: spent the night, and if there had been time, like

839
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 2: Kelly said, for Byron to show her around Truman Roade

840
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 2: and the I four thirty five that night. Back to

841
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 2: Nicole in our.

842
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 10: Interview, Kelly's not told the same story, not one time now,

843
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 10: not even for the state.

844
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: And there have been big differences.

845
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 10: I mean, we're not talking about minor changes or forgetfulness.

846
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 10: There are just big differences in each of her stories

847
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 10: that's unaccounted for.

848
00:51:58,320 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: The state didn't account for them.

849
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,280
Speaker 10: And so for the state for the state to say,

850
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 10: we have looked into this again and we decided not

851
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 10: to take the case because Kelly Moffett stands by her story.

852
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 1: Well, tell us which story that is.

853
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 2: Nicole is referring to hearing former Jackson County Prosecutor Jean

854
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: Peters Baker in episode eleven, here's Quinn.

855
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 7: Yeah.

856
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 4: When I heard Jean Peters Baker on the podcast say

857
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 4: we have done the work, I wanted to throw my

858
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,959
Speaker 4: headphones off. They did not do the work. They didn't

859
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 4: even read the work that we gave them.

860
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 6: In our presentation. I promise you all they did was

861
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 6: read the trial transcript and call Kelly and ask her,

862
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 6: if we called you as a witness again, would you

863
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 6: say the same thing. And she said yes over the telephone,

864
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 6: is what she told them.

865
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 13: Because what they want is a perfect case.

866
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 4: They want the DNA to exclude the client, they want

867
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 4: the DNA to match somebody else, they want a recantation

868
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 4: from the eyewitness.

869
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 11: They want all this, you.

870
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 13: Know, perfect stuff. And if all of those things are true,

871
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 13: someone never would have gotten convicted in the first place.

872
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 13: I mean, they're looking for the perfect case and it's

873
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 13: never going to happen.

874
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 6: But the only two things they told us to justify

875
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 6: their decision not to reopen this case was number one,

876
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 6: that Kelly had not recanted, and number two, Kelly had

877
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 6: not recanded, you know, And so you know, and I

878
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 6: was angry at this meeting, and they could probably tell it.

879
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 6: But at the end of it, I said, so you

880
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 6: have effectively made Kelly Moffatt the gatekeeper for your conviction

881
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 6: integrity unit. Kelly Moffatt has told you not to proceed

882
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 6: on this, and you're not proceeding on this. That is

883
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 6: essentially what they said, and so when you asked me

884
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 6: my reaction to your podcast podcast is great, but that

885
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 6: episode really me.

886
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: I continue my conversation with Byron's legal team. A quick reminder,

887
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: this interview took place the day after my interview with Kelly.

888
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 1: I asked her.

889
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 2: Fourteen pages of questions. A lot of it she couldn't

890
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: remember because it's been But to be fair, it's been twenty.

891
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 6: Something years, right, says, if you always tell the truth,

892
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 6: you don't have to remember anything.

893
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she remembers that Byron did it. One of

894
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: the things that struck me that I had forgotten was

895
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 2: that at trials she did not remember going to Abraham's.

896
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 2: And even the prosecutor said, are you sure you didn't

897
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 2: stop anywhere else, you know, after the killing before going home,

898
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: and she was like.

899
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: No, not that I remember. So whatever that means.

900
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 2: Back in two thousand and two, at the trial, she

901
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 2: didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams. And the prosecution very

902
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 2: much believes that they stopped at Abraham's, right, correct, So,

903
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 2: and I'm not making her case for her. I'm just

904
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 2: saying there could be some things that she doesn't remember.

905
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 2: When she didn't even remember stopping at Abrahams back in

906
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: two thousand and two.

907
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 9: Well, she didn't, and she didn't remember it in two

908
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 9: thousand when she gave her statement, she's in her fabrication.

909
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: I asked her, did you guys go back to the house.

910
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 2: She said, I don't know, I don't remember. So she

911
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: left that open to the possibility that they may have

912
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:41,919
Speaker 2: gone back to the house.

913
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 6: She knew she would do that. Yeah, of course she

914
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 6: has to. Now, she has to change her story to

915
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:47,439
Speaker 6: fit the fact.

916
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: Couldn't it be drug brain? Couldn't it be? I mean,

917
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: couldn't that have messed up some of her memory?

918
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:59,120
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter because the external facts still show that

919
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 4: Kelly Moffett isn't being truthful.

920
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 11: I mean, we can sit.

921
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,400
Speaker 4: Here and talk about drug brain and memory and all

922
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 4: sorts of scientific studies about, you know, how memory changes

923
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 4: and what happens. But the fact is it can't be

924
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 4: true because of these other people who don't have a

925
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 4: stake in this saw Kelly at different times. They saw antesthesia,

926
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 4: the dairy queen, they saw anaesthesia, the cemetery.

927
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 11: Fact like, all of these.

928
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 4: External witnesses disprove Kelly's story.

929
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 11: So I'm saying that we.

930
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: Can you know, some people wrote in talking about memory

931
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 2: loss and how that can happen as a result of trauma,

932
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: not just with drug use.

933
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: Back to Quinn, and.

934
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 4: I have empathy for Kelly too. And in this story,

935
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 4: Kelly gets to be.

936
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 11: The hero to Fran and Emma and.

937
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 4: Anastasia and the Whipwell's Hugan family. She gets to bring

938
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 4: them closure. You know, listening to the podcast, I cried

939
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 4: listening to and Emma talk they lost someone really special

940
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 4: and really important to them, and.

941
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 11: Kelly gets to be their hero.

942
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 4: I get that, you know, Kelly getting to play the hero,

943
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 4: and this story is really compelling, and she's made that part.

944
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 11: Of who she is.

945
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 4: And she has the gratitude of the Whipple's Hugan family

946
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 4: and the girls for providing them closure.

947
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 11: It's I get why she did that, you know.

948
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 4: She yes, she had to implicate herself to tell this story,

949
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 4: but she was never at any risk, not ever. She

950
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 4: came forward with an attorney who made an immunity deal

951
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 4: for her before she even said one word on the

952
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 4: record that would implicate herself.

953
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 11: She was never at any risk ever, not at any time.

954
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, she says that she was basically made to come forward.

955
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 2: She was, and that when she came forward there was

956
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: no deal, no immunity promised.

957
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: She had no idea what was going to happen.

958
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 11: To Yes, that's not true, that's a lie.

959
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: When she came over to the counselor and then the

960
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 2: counselor reached out to an attorney and I mean the

961
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 2: prosecutor's office, she said at that point there was no deal.

962
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 6: The document showed the deal was on the table before

963
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 6: she made any statements to the police. The counselor is

964
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 6: what locked in her story. The councilor called the prosecutor

965
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 6: and essentially turned her in, forced her to tell a story,

966
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 6: and then this is the story that she developed off

967
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 6: the cuff.

968
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: I think what Kelly said is that when she told

969
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: the counselor or was forced to tell the counselor, and

970
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 2: the counselor said she was going to go contact the

971
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: prosecutor's office about it, Kelly had no idea what was

972
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,439
Speaker 2: going to happen to her. She had no idea at

973
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 2: that point she would eventually be given immunity. Right, let's

974
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 2: please talk about Anastasia's clothes and whether or not she

975
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 2: might have gone home. I know you very much, believe

976
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 2: she went home. This is my question about it if

977
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 2: we believe Fran's description of what Anastasia was wearing when

978
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: she left the house. And I'm not supposed to give

979
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 2: my opinions on anything, but I do believe that they

980
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 2: had such a detailed conversation about the clothes. I do

981
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 2: believe Fran knows what Anastasia was wearing that day. Fran

982
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 2: seems very believable, and not just in the podcast where

983
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: she gave a lot of details about it, but she

984
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: seemed pretty clear in her early interviews that this is

985
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 2: what Anastasia was wearing. So for Anastasia to leave the house,

986
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: let's just call it black clothes. She leaves the house

987
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 2: in black clothes. In order for Dawn Wright to see

988
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 2: her in blue jeans and the socks and sandals, Anastasia

989
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,640
Speaker 2: would have had to go home before going to the

990
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: Dairy Queen. So that's one change to then be at

991
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 2: the Dairy Queen in the blue jeans, to then go

992
00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 2: home again, to change out of the blue jeans into

993
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 2: the black clothes, to then later be killed in the

994
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:06,600
Speaker 2: black clothes. Please try to explain to me the whole

995
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 2: thing is like did in a Stagia go home once,

996
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 2: it would have meant she went home twice.

997
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 9: So I don't think and this is all respect to Fran,

998
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,919
Speaker 9: and you know, she was a fifteen year old who

999
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 9: just lost her sister. She didn't give a statement though,

1000
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 9: for five days. I believe her first statement was October

1001
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 9: twenty eighth. By that point in time, everybody knew what

1002
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 9: Anastasia was wearing when she was found.

1003
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 8: So I don't know that necessarily.

1004
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 9: Fran's insistence of what she remembered Anastasia wearing wasn't somehow

1005
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 9: muddled by Bob telling her what she was wearing or

1006
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 9: what she was found in.

1007
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: But we don't know that. We don't know that someone

1008
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 1: told her.

1009
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 9: We don't know, but you can imagine that within a

1010
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,439
Speaker 9: small family there and having just on, you know that.

1011
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 8: The trauma of what's going on.

1012
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 9: So I mean they were I think that it's pretty

1013
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 9: clear that they were communicating with each other about how

1014
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 9: she was found. But I think another part of that

1015
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 9: is you have two competing statements here. You have what

1016
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 9: Fran believes she was wearing and what Dawn says she

1017
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 9: was wearing. Fran saw Anastasia before she left for maybe

1018
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 9: fifteen minutes, whereas Dawn was with Anastasia for an hour

1019
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:35,120
Speaker 9: to an hour and a half before she left, so

1020
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 9: she had simply more time to observe what she was

1021
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 9: wearing while she was at that Dairy Queen. And if

1022
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 9: Anastasia was wearing what Fran said she was wearing, there

1023
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 9: would have been blood on those clothes and in that

1024
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 9: underwear and on that pad at some point by the

1025
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 9: time she was found. That when Anna Stage is found,

1026
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 9: she's wearing clean everything. But because Dawn says that she

1027
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 9: started her period in the Dairy Queen, we know that

1028
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 9: that means that whatever she was wearing it the Dairy

1029
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 9: Queen would have had blood on it somewhere, and none

1030
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 9: of that was found.

1031
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 4: And I'd just like to point out that if Detective

1032
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 4: Kilgore had asked Solomon Suelatt for security footage, Solomon Seuelatt

1033
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 4: had that and was ready to provide it to the police,

1034
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 4: was never asked for it, So we would know all

1035
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 4: of this for sure, we would know the timeline for sure,

1036
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 4: we would know what Anastasia was wearing for sure. If

1037
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 4: Kilgore had just bothered to ask if Solomon Suett had security.

1038
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: Footage, does that video still exist.

1039
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 4: No, I've spoken to mister Seuett and he got rid

1040
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:56,040
Speaker 4: of it a long time ago.

1041
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 11: The Dairy Queen wasn't a fire.

1042
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 13: He eventually sold it to some other business.

1043
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 2: It's now an because so much has been said about

1044
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 2: Sergeant Gary Kilgore and what he did and didn't do

1045
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:11,439
Speaker 2: during his investigation. I reached back out to him again

1046
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,640
Speaker 2: to see if he's been listening and if he has

1047
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 2: anything he wants to say.

1048
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: He has not returned my calls. Here's Sean.

1049
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 6: So, at the time that Fran made these observations, she

1050
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 6: did not know that her sister was going to be

1051
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 6: murdered that night. And memory is very malleable, and so

1052
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 6: I think Fran is remembering what she usually saw Anastasia

1053
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 6: where the other piece of it is the purse or

1054
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 6: the wallet. And how does don Wright know to describe

1055
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 6: a wallet that Bob Whitbolsfugen finds that evening, you know,

1056
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 6: on the stairway at their home, and then he texts

1057
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 6: a picture of it, and the picture as an email

1058
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 6: right different wall.

1059
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 11: I'm not sure it is though as a t okay, okay, gotcha.

1060
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 6: Okay, but yeah, but there is the purse, yeah, and That's.

1061
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 10: Also something that I think wasn't pointed out in the

1062
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 10: podcast or may none of the purse that Don describes

1063
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 10: is like a wallet on a long strap, and it's

1064
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 10: not an usual size purse. And then Bob sends a

1065
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 10: picture of that type of purse exactly.

1066
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:38,280
Speaker 2: For the record, in episode two, we do share Don

1067
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 2: Wright's exact description of the purse. She said she saw

1068
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,160
Speaker 2: Anastasia carrying that night. Let me ask you a couple

1069
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:48,760
Speaker 2: of follow up questions. Yeah, so Anastasia was found with

1070
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 2: three dollars and sixty five cents in her pants pocket.

1071
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 2: If she had that money on her, she did have

1072
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 2: that money on her, Why would that not be in

1073
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 2: her purse or wallet? If she was carrying something that.

1074
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 4: Night, changed pants and that was money that was in

1075
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 4: her pants before she put them on, and she the anxiety.

1076
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, she went home and left the purse left.

1077
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 10: She typically didn't carry it purse, right, she typically didn't

1078
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:16,880
Speaker 10: carry a purse.

1079
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 4: Oh see, I think I think I call that magic

1080
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 4: money when you put your coat on that you haven't

1081
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 4: worn since last fall and you find three bucks in

1082
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 4: the pocket.

1083
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: Right, But we don't know, I mean, that's a I

1084
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 1: don't know it's.

1085
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 11: Just Ya's al anymore. That's all. There are multiple explanations

1086
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 11: for it.

1087
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: It just yea and in terms of memory.

1088
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 2: So one could make the argument that down right, I mean,

1089
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 2: as we know, I witness testimony is.

1090
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 1: Often wrong, and she could have been wrong about Anastasia's clothes.

1091
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 11: Slomon Sala doesn't think so.

1092
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: He doesn't describe what she's wearing.

1093
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:57,360
Speaker 4: No, but he said that he was there when down

1094
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 4: was describing what she was wearing, and he didn't have

1095
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,360
Speaker 4: any qualms or quibbles with it.

1096
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 8: This is coming from a conversation. Yeah.

1097
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 4: Sorry, I interviewed Solomons a lot separately, So this is

1098
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 4: stuff that you would not have been privy to yet

1099
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 4: because it just recently happened. He backs Solomon's all that

1100
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,680
Speaker 4: backs up down right and says that whatever Dawn said

1101
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 4: Anastasia was wearing is what.

1102
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: She was wearing.

1103
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 9: But you're you're correct that, I mean, of course, anybody

1104
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 9: could be wrong about anything.

1105
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 8: When we're talking about I witness say, you know, yeah, things.

1106
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 9: That's why we go back to what she was with

1107
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 9: her for longer than anybody else that night. She had

1108
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 9: more of a chance to see her and what she

1109
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 9: was wearing. And take that in and remember it. And

1110
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 9: no reason to lie, no reason to lie.

1111
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 6: And yeah, yeah, and socks with sandals is really specific

1112
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 6: as opposed to she was wearing what she usually wore.

1113
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 2: You know, which begs the question, isn't it odd that

1114
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 2: on this particular Dayastasia was supposedly seen wearing something people

1115
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,600
Speaker 2: close to her said she never wore. Also, she was

1116
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: seen caring a purse, which her friends and family said

1117
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 2: she would never do. Why would Anastasia be seen in

1118
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 2: clothes so out of character for her? Also, they say,

1119
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: don Wright has no reason to lie. It might not

1120
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 2: have been a lie, just an honest mistake. Also, Fran

1121
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: has no reason to lie.

1122
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 7: Right.

1123
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 1: Fran was in that interview.

1124
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 2: On ten twenty eight, very specific also about the black bra.

1125
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:40,760
Speaker 1: You know, she they had a conversation about clothes.

1126
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 2: It wasn't just like she saw Anastasia leave in these

1127
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 2: clothes and there was no they actually had a conversation

1128
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 2: about borrowing and like, so what do you make of that?

1129
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's a little bit more than

1130
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 1: just she.

1131
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 2: May or friend may have been incorrect, because it's what

1132
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 2: Anastasia often wore. They talked, they talked, it seems like

1133
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: they talked about it.

1134
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 4: They probably did have an argument, which is why Anastasa

1135
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 4: settled on socks with sandals instead of France Doc Martins

1136
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 4: at that time.

1137
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 6: And I could see later in the evening when she

1138
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 6: went out a second time that her feet were probably cold.

1139
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 11: Her sister wasn't there to argue anymore.

1140
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 4: So you could take her sister's Doc Martens, and her

1141
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 4: sister wasn't there to fight her about it.

1142
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,760
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the pad versus tampon thing for

1143
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 2: a second, because as we know, don Wright first said

1144
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 2: it was a pad, then at trial she changed it

1145
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 2: to a tampon. Kilgore found a box of tampons in

1146
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 2: Anastasia's room. One could deduce I'm not saying I'm right,

1147
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 2: but one could deduce that that's what Anastasia used. So

1148
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 2: how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon? How

1149
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 2: did she end up in a pad?

1150
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 7: She went home?

1151
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,879
Speaker 2: So how if don Wright actually gave her a tampon?

1152
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: How to chand up in a pad?

1153
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:16,920
Speaker 8: She went home?

1154
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 1: But if that's not what she normally used.

1155
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 11: Why and why would you change?

1156
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you like once you

1157
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 2: sorry very rapid, but once you put one in, you

1158
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 2: don't need to change it.

1159
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 1: You don't have to.

1160
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 4: Solomon saw That said that when he went in to

1161
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 4: change the trash in the employee bathroom, because that's when

1162
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,839
Speaker 4: the Anastasia used uh, there was a you know, tampon

1163
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 4: trash in the garbage can, and there was still blood

1164
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 4: in the toilet, which means that Anastasia is actively bleeding.

1165
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 11: At this point.

1166
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 4: No matter what she was wearing, there should be some

1167
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 4: blood on it. So at some point she puts something

1168
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 4: clean on. And women know, periods unpredictable. Your flow can

1169
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 4: be heavy and light, depending on the second of the

1170
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 4: day and which direction the wind's blowing.

1171
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:10,679
Speaker 1: Okay, let me ask you this question.

1172
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 2: As I mean, as you said in a period can

1173
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 2: start and stop, especially when in the first few years

1174
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: they're very sporadic in the beginning. My question is if

1175
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,559
Speaker 2: Anastasia went from the dairy Queen in a pad just

1176
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 2: for the sake of argument in a pad, to Mount

1177
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 2: Washington and then to Lincoln where she was killed, there

1178
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: would be less time potentially for there to be anything

1179
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 2: on that pad. If she went home, changed into a

1180
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 2: pad and then was killed hours potentially hours later, wouldn't

1181
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 2: there be a greater likelihood that something would have ended

1182
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 2: up on that pad after that many hours of having.

1183
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 8: On there was no blood. There was no blood in

1184
01:10:58,240 --> 01:10:59,360
Speaker 8: her underwear either.

1185
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 9: And so if she went straight from Mount Washington, I

1186
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:10,760
Speaker 9: mean straight from Dairy Queen, Mount Washington Lincoln Cemetery, even

1187
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 9: if the pad was clean and there wasn't an opportunity

1188
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 9: for her to bleed onto that, there still would have

1189
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 9: been blood on her underwear from when she started her

1190
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 9: period and needed a product.

1191
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: We're getting very intimate with each other.

1192
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 2: A woman can feel her period coming on before anything

1193
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 2: hits underwear. She could have gone. She could have said,

1194
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 2: I'm getting my period, do you have anything? Gone to

1195
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 2: the bathroom. She could have sat down and stuff could

1196
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 2: have come into the toilet and nothing ever ended up

1197
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:43,040
Speaker 2: ending up on her underwear.

1198
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: It is a possibility. I think it's.

1199
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 11: A that's a stretch. That's a real stretch.

1200
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 4: I mean, I think he's actively bleeding into the toilet,

1201
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 4: such as the male manager of the restaurant notices that

1202
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 4: there's blood in the toilet and tampon trash in the

1203
01:11:58,400 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 4: trash can.

1204
01:12:00,479 --> 01:12:02,320
Speaker 11: There's probably blood on her underwear.

1205
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 9: Plus it would have I think that they did. In

1206
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 9: her autopsy, Doctor Young did find menstrual blood in her vagina.

1207
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 8: Still right and so right.

1208
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 4: It's more plausible that she cleaned herself up and that

1209
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 4: after the initial period started that it slowed down, or

1210
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,600
Speaker 4: that she just wasn't upright as long as we thought

1211
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:27,720
Speaker 4: between the times she returned home and the time that

1212
01:12:28,040 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 4: she was found over the time that she died in

1213
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 4: the cemetery.

1214
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 11: Yeah, or if if she died in the cemetery at all,

1215
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:34,680
Speaker 11: I don't know.

1216
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 2: But again, if she went home, put on different clothes,

1217
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 2: and changed from a tampon to a pad, then was

1218
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: killed hours later, why wasn't there anything on the pad?

1219
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 2: More hours equals more time to bleed? Right, let me

1220
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 2: ask you, following up on a couple of things you

1221
01:12:56,520 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 2: just said. So because I know that the Kansas City

1222
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:04,240
Speaker 2: Police crime lab came back and said that there is

1223
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:06,760
Speaker 2: a possibility that she may have been lying down when

1224
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,600
Speaker 2: she was killed. How do you explain a piece of

1225
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 2: her skull being up to a couple feet away.

1226
01:13:13,439 --> 01:13:19,240
Speaker 9: I think that I mean a gunshot wound. There's a

1227
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 9: lot of energy that goes into it, and especially if

1228
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:25,799
Speaker 9: you've got if someone's head is laying on the ground

1229
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,160
Speaker 9: to reflect that energy back. I don't think it's inconceivable

1230
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 9: that it could have deflected part of her skull off

1231
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 9: of the ground and out from underneath her head.

1232
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:40,759
Speaker 11: Energy has neither created nor destroyed.

1233
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 4: We know this because of science, and so when it

1234
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 4: is perfectly reasonable to assume that her head came off

1235
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,440
Speaker 4: the ground so that the energy from the gunshot could disperse,

1236
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:53,639
Speaker 4: it just physics.

1237
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, I don't think it was inconceivable that her when

1238
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 9: the bullet passed through her head, that it deflected part

1239
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 9: of that material out and out from underneath her head,

1240
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 9: because I believe it was about four feet from the

1241
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 9: top of her head.

1242
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 2: This seemed a bit far fetched, so I reached out

1243
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:21,400
Speaker 2: to doctor Bill Smock, who is an internationally recognized forensic

1244
01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 2: expert in multiple fields, including, but not limited to, reconstruction

1245
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 2: of officer involved shootings and the forensic evaluation of gunshot wounds.

1246
01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:36,720
Speaker 2: Doctor Smock is also the police surgeon and directs the

1247
01:14:36,760 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 2: clinical forensic Medicine program for the Louisville Metro Police Department

1248
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 2: in Louisville, Kentucky. He's also a clinical Professor of Emergency

1249
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 2: Medicine at the University of Louisville School of Medicine. When

1250
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 2: I read doctor Smock verbatim what Byron's legal team just

1251
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 2: said about the possibility that Anastasia was lying down when

1252
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:00,400
Speaker 2: she was shot in a piece of her skull was

1253
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 2: sent feet away, doctor Smock says, if her head was

1254
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:07,200
Speaker 2: on the ground, there's no way that her head would

1255
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 2: have come up from the force of the shot causing

1256
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 2: a piece of her skull to fly and land up

1257
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 2: two feet away. If anything, he said, it just would

1258
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 2: have gone down further into the ground. So doctor Smock

1259
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:26,840
Speaker 2: doesn't believe their theory is possible. Okay, this is a question.

1260
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 2: I don't think you guys are going to like feature faces.

1261
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:31,719
Speaker 1: Okay.

1262
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:35,639
Speaker 2: As I went back through the transcripts, I saw something

1263
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 2: that was a teeny tiny bit of like a pink

1264
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:47,480
Speaker 2: flag or a burnt orange flag. In Byron's first interview

1265
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 2: with Kilgore and Kellogg, they asked him, has just never

1266
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,320
Speaker 2: been suicidal? And he says, yes, you know, I think

1267
01:15:57,320 --> 01:15:58,559
Speaker 2: he's attempted a few times.

1268
01:15:59,080 --> 01:16:01,919
Speaker 1: And he says, I'll just read it to you. He says.

1269
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: That night, he says, I know he had attempts in

1270
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,640
Speaker 2: the past, he quite a few actually.

1271
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 1: And last night he did. After Anastasia got out of

1272
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 1: the car.

1273
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 2: I don't know. We were driving down Truman Road. We

1274
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,759
Speaker 2: were going over I guess it was like railroad tracks

1275
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:25,519
Speaker 2: or something. I don't know, but he was like mentioning,

1276
01:16:25,560 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 2: you know, he was like, gee, I don't know, you know,

1277
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like, you know, tonight, I could just kill myself.

1278
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 2: I just thought he was, you know, being silly about it,

1279
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 2: being silly about And then they jump in and ask

1280
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 2: him a couple of questions. Okay, so here's my question.

1281
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:41,120
Speaker 2: I feel like I got a paper cut. The first

1282
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 2: time Kelly comes forward in September of two thousand, she

1283
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 2: says that they dumped the gun near some railroad tracks.

1284
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 2: The only time that railroad tracks come up are when

1285
01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,759
Speaker 2: Byron says justin thought or mentioned that he might kill himself,

1286
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 2: and when Kelly says they dumped the gun. Is that

1287
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:08,040
Speaker 2: a tell? Did Byron say something that inadvertently he used

1288
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:14,160
Speaker 2: a detail like the railroad tracks that also then matched.

1289
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:16,639
Speaker 1: Or kind of the area where Kelly or.

1290
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 9: Map or is this a tell by Kelly of her

1291
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 9: integrating the actual truth into her fabrication.

1292
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,400
Speaker 4: I'm counting the number of railroad tracks they would pass

1293
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 4: over between Washington Mount Washington Cemetery before getting back downtown.

1294
01:17:34,920 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 2: But I'm not even talking like, not even in relation

1295
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 2: to the area or Lincoln Cemetery or Truman Road. Just

1296
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:45,760
Speaker 2: the fact that Byron says Justin threatened or mentioned suicide

1297
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 2: at some railroad tracks. Kelly says they dumped the gun

1298
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,240
Speaker 2: near some railroad tracks. One could say it would make

1299
01:17:53,320 --> 01:17:56,720
Speaker 2: sense that Justin threatened to kill himself. It was if

1300
01:17:56,760 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 2: it was at a place after they killed her, it

1301
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:03,559
Speaker 2: was at a place where the gun was dumped, or.

1302
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 4: They pass over railroad tracks on their way back into

1303
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 4: Kansas City.

1304
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:07,839
Speaker 8: You're saying, yeah, I just think.

1305
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 11: That three times.

1306
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 8: I think that that would be a I don't think

1307
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 8: that that.

1308
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 9: I don't find that fact particularly alarming or anything. I mean,

1309
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 9: take your point, but it's just to me, it just

1310
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,639
Speaker 9: seems like Byron is we're calling the story as it happened.

1311
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:26,759
Speaker 9: He's like, so she gets out and then we're driving

1312
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:29,800
Speaker 9: and we start going over some railroad tracks and then

1313
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 9: oh and Justin's like talking about killing himself because of

1314
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 9: this argument they just had, Like.

1315
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 4: It's another industrial area, so there are two opportunities before

1316
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:41,599
Speaker 4: they get back even inside the what we would call

1317
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 4: the Downtown Loop or South Kansas City area, two opportunities

1318
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:47,840
Speaker 4: where there are lots of railroad tracks.

1319
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:50,760
Speaker 1: It just stood out to me.

1320
01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 2: But if he just witnessed a murder, or he just

1321
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:55,679
Speaker 2: killed her while the three of them were together, one

1322
01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:58,800
Speaker 2: could say, like that would be a response that could

1323
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:03,120
Speaker 2: be believable. So I wanted to ask, because you know,

1324
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 2: it's like, was that go ahead?

1325
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 10: Were those of the railroad tracks by Lake Quavera or why?

1326
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,840
Speaker 1: I don't think it even matters where the tracks are.

1327
01:19:13,880 --> 01:19:14,439
Speaker 1: I think just.

1328
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:18,599
Speaker 2: Hearing Byron say when we were near some railroad tracks,

1329
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 2: Justin said I should just kill myself tonight. And then

1330
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:24,000
Speaker 2: it turns out that the only other time we hear

1331
01:19:24,080 --> 01:19:26,559
Speaker 2: railroad tracks is when Kelly says they dumped the gun

1332
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,680
Speaker 2: near them. One could just say, hmm, I wonder if

1333
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 2: there is a connection time just having killed her.

1334
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 9: Every good fabrication incorporates elements of truth in it. But

1335
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 9: she would have been in the car when Justin says

1336
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:45,960
Speaker 9: that as they're going over railroad tracks, and so.

1337
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:48,839
Speaker 6: I would say, even a blind squirrel finds an acorn

1338
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:51,360
Speaker 6: every now and then, they're probably a couple of.

1339
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:52,719
Speaker 1: Truth blind squirrel.

1340
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,000
Speaker 6: No, no, no, Kelly's the blind squirrel. It's a corollary

1341
01:19:57,000 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 6: to the broken clock. Even a broken clock is right

1342
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:00,080
Speaker 6: twice a day.

1343
01:20:00,240 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 8: To me, it's the same it's the same thing as

1344
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:03,560
Speaker 8: her incorporation.

1345
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:07,520
Speaker 9: She's incorporating real memories into her fabrication.

1346
01:20:07,760 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1347
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 6: We've talked about theories of the case.

1348
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:11,440
Speaker 1: I mean it's all speculation.

1349
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 6: Have no idea, Yeah, we really don't. But the police

1350
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:20,280
Speaker 6: theory of the case from the beginning was a murder supicide.

1351
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 6: That's what they thought. We don't know when or if

1352
01:20:24,479 --> 01:20:27,840
Speaker 6: or how Justin would have reconnected with Anastasia that night,

1353
01:20:29,160 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 6: but for a long time that's what the police belief happened.

1354
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 2: So did Justin say he wanted to take his own

1355
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 2: life because Anastaesia got out of the car or was

1356
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:44,479
Speaker 2: it because he just committed or witnessed her murder?

1357
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:48,880
Speaker 10: I was just going to point out, just for transparency,

1358
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 10: that we all have a different version. I mean, we

1359
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 10: all have different ideas about what could have happened.

1360
01:20:56,680 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 6: The question is this, what is the physical evidence? It

1361
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 6: shows that the police find her body in the cemetery,

1362
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:08,759
Speaker 6: she has been shot with a gun that was touching

1363
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 6: her nose, when it was fired, and she did not

1364
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 6: turn away. She was probably lying on her back when

1365
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,080
Speaker 6: that happened. It could be a pistol, it could have

1366
01:21:18,120 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 6: been a rifle, but they can't say. All we know

1367
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 6: is that there's not a gun on the scene. If

1368
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:26,639
Speaker 6: there had been a gun on the scene, this would

1369
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 6: have been ruled a suicide, open and shutcase. But the

1370
01:21:30,760 --> 01:21:34,200
Speaker 6: crime lab has said the absence of a gun at

1371
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 6: the scene does not foreclose suicide, especially when we know

1372
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:43,360
Speaker 6: there's an unexplained automobile that was there at the scene.

1373
01:21:43,439 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 6: We cannot exclude. Now, we don't know when that car

1374
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:49,799
Speaker 6: went by, but we do know it went by before

1375
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,559
Speaker 6: the police got there. It might have been a few

1376
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,439
Speaker 6: days before, it had rained on that like two days before,

1377
01:21:56,479 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 6: but still a car had been by, and so we

1378
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 6: don't know that the scene was pristine when the police arrived.

1379
01:22:05,840 --> 01:22:09,440
Speaker 6: And so, beyond a reasonable doubt, did someone kill Anastatia?

1380
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:11,600
Speaker 6: I don't think they can show that it would go

1381
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,599
Speaker 6: on from there. You know, if she didn't take her

1382
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,679
Speaker 6: own life, what could have happened? How could that gun

1383
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:21,480
Speaker 6: have been missing? Well, there is evidence that Bob Whitbolsfugen

1384
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 6: thinks he heard the gun that killed her. He thinks

1385
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 6: he heard that shot and he was standing in a

1386
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 6: place and said the shot came from the west of

1387
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:35,000
Speaker 6: where he was, in the general direction of Lincoln Cemetery.

1388
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,679
Speaker 6: It is inconceivable that he didn't go there to look

1389
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:42,280
Speaker 6: for the gun. He, by the way, has the financial

1390
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,560
Speaker 6: incentive to cover up a suicide because he just increased

1391
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:50,479
Speaker 6: two days earlier the life insurance policy. So there's evidence

1392
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 6: to support that theory. And I'd probably argue to a

1393
01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:59,040
Speaker 6: jury that to find Byron guilty beyond a reasonable doubt,

1394
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:01,760
Speaker 6: you have to answer these questions. That all of these

1395
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:07,120
Speaker 6: unanswered questions doesn't mean that Byron is guilty because we

1396
01:23:07,200 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 6: can't answer these questions. They opposite is true. These questions

1397
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 6: raise other possibilities inconsistent with Byron's guild.

1398
01:23:29,640 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 2: What do you make of people's varying timelines, Like Suleiman

1399
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 2: and don Wright tell very different times that Anastasia was

1400
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 2: at the dairy, Queen don Rand said that he saw

1401
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 2: her at thirty. None of those timelines really totally work

1402
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,280
Speaker 2: with her getting out of the car, then they went

1403
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 2: to Abraham's. Then she was home and Kelly was home

1404
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:01,520
Speaker 2: by nine fifteen. So what do you make of everyone's

1405
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 2: very different timelines.

1406
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:07,439
Speaker 9: Well, the time change, well that happened after but a week,

1407
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,240
Speaker 9: like a week after she was found. But I think

1408
01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:16,600
Speaker 9: that it's that time of year when it's getting darker earlier.

1409
01:24:17,200 --> 01:24:20,960
Speaker 9: I think you asked anybody in October what time something

1410
01:24:21,040 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 9: happened last night? Your brain is still adjusting to dark

1411
01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 9: being eight o'clock versus dark being seven o'clock.

1412
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:29,040
Speaker 7: You know.

1413
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 1: But Don Wright does start intructor.

1414
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:33,760
Speaker 2: Don Wright does say that she was here until a

1415
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 2: half hour before closing, and we close at ten, so

1416
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:39,920
Speaker 2: that's much later, and we.

1417
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:44,120
Speaker 9: Know that can't be accurate because Kelly was home by

1418
01:24:44,160 --> 01:24:46,559
Speaker 9: that point in time, verified by Debbie.

1419
01:24:46,640 --> 01:24:50,720
Speaker 8: I mean, that was her curfew. She would have.

1420
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 9: Gone nuclear if her daughter wasn't home by nine o'clock

1421
01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 9: she was supposed to.

1422
01:24:55,439 --> 01:25:00,000
Speaker 6: This is why the failure to collect that video surveillance

1423
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 6: is so prejudicial to the defense, because we would have

1424
01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 6: a definitive point of time at which they left the

1425
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 6: dairy Queen, and then we have DeBie Moffatt establishing when

1426
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:15,960
Speaker 6: Kelly got home, and we would have those two points

1427
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,360
Speaker 6: in time fixed, and that would let us test everything

1428
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:25,479
Speaker 6: in between, but and reenact on a clock whether or

1429
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 6: not Kelly's story is even plausible given the timeline and.

1430
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,719
Speaker 10: At the end of the day, Kelly told don Right

1431
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 10: Justin didn't want to come to Independence to pick her

1432
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:40,599
Speaker 10: up because an Annastasia told don Wright that Justin didn't

1433
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:42,200
Speaker 10: want to come to Independence to pick her up because

1434
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,360
Speaker 10: he was hanging out with his best friend. Does that

1435
01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:48,160
Speaker 10: sound like someone who's plotted to kill her all day

1436
01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 10: he doesn't want to come get her.

1437
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:50,600
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1438
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:52,200
Speaker 1: I just wanted to add.

1439
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 2: That a lot of people wrote in They had a

1440
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:58,919
Speaker 2: lot of questions and theories and thoughts.

1441
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:05,320
Speaker 1: One of them was is Byron a sociopath?

1442
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 2: And I know that you had him evaluate it, so

1443
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about that.

1444
01:26:10,320 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 9: Absolutely no evidence of sociopathy or any personality disorders or

1445
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:21,920
Speaker 9: anything like that. And in fact, you know, part of

1446
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:25,280
Speaker 9: us we were wondering if maybe he was on the spectrum,

1447
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,680
Speaker 9: and I think that kind of came back as inconclusive,

1448
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 9: but which you.

1449
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:32,120
Speaker 8: Know, we were. We were interested in that for explaining

1450
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 8: some of his.

1451
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:34,799
Speaker 6: Demeanor.

1452
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 9: Demeanor, Yeah, and that's not that's nothing that when you

1453
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:42,800
Speaker 9: get to know Byron, he's not, you know, you see

1454
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:45,559
Speaker 9: him for who he is. But I could understand why

1455
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 9: some people would think he was I hate to say weird,

1456
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:52,799
Speaker 9: but why he was different.

1457
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 6: Well, he's brilliant. Yeah, he is smart, and so he

1458
01:26:56,720 --> 01:27:01,400
Speaker 6: intellectually ruminates on a lot of things, and you know,

1459
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:03,880
Speaker 6: people can draw conclusions from that, but that's just how

1460
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:04,960
Speaker 6: Byron he is. You know.

1461
01:27:05,160 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 9: The other thing is we got his prison conduct records

1462
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:12,000
Speaker 9: and he only in twenty some odd years of being

1463
01:27:12,040 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 9: in prison, has two conduct violations, one for staying up

1464
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 9: past curfew to read a book and the other for

1465
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:24,000
Speaker 9: working on his Innocent's website when they had told him

1466
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,320
Speaker 9: to stop working on his innocence website. If he was

1467
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,080
Speaker 9: a sociopath, that would be documented.

1468
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:33,639
Speaker 2: At this point, Brian just answered, Actually, another listener's question

1469
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 2: about whether or not Byron is autistic. The listener asked

1470
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,880
Speaker 2: if Byron is on the spectrum, suggesting that could explain

1471
01:27:42,960 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 2: some of his behaviors and judgments. Brian just said that

1472
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 2: testing came back inconclusive. One listener wrote asking if the

1473
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:55,639
Speaker 2: phone records can still be retrieved. It seems that answer

1474
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 2: is no. Another person wrote in asking about the weight

1475
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:03,200
Speaker 2: of the bullet fragment, wondering if that could tell us

1476
01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:06,320
Speaker 2: something about the kind of gun that was used, so

1477
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 2: the weight is fifty six point one grains, which unfortunately

1478
01:28:11,680 --> 01:28:16,759
Speaker 2: doesn't rule out a lot of calibers. Another person wrote

1479
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:19,599
Speaker 2: in asking if there was a metal detector ever used

1480
01:28:19,640 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 2: to look for other bullet fragments at the site where

1481
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:26,360
Speaker 2: Anastasia died. A metal detector was used the day her

1482
01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 2: body was found. According to a police report, there were

1483
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:35,400
Speaker 2: several small to medium size metal objects located as deep

1484
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:38,479
Speaker 2: as eight to ten inches below the surface of the ground.

1485
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 2: None were bullets. Many listeners asked if this wasn't in

1486
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 2: fact a murder suicide, that maybe after Justin took Byron home,

1487
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:52,040
Speaker 2: he went back out, met up with Anastasia, killed her,

1488
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 2: then took his own life. Sadly, there's really no way

1489
01:28:57,240 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 2: to prove that. Another question that came in was about

1490
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 2: what items were picked up from Abraham and taken to

1491
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:08,800
Speaker 2: Tara that night, and there are conflicting stories about that.

1492
01:29:09,320 --> 01:29:12,880
Speaker 2: There are also conflicting stories about whose house they went

1493
01:29:12,960 --> 01:29:16,639
Speaker 2: to first. It's hard to know if there's a there

1494
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:19,920
Speaker 2: there or if it's just that too much time had

1495
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 2: gone by and those memories had faded. Let's talk about

1496
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 2: Bob for two seconds. Is there for all of the

1497
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 2: stuff that seems ridiculous that Bob came up with, like

1498
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 2: the caravan of cars. Is it possible that some of

1499
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:46,120
Speaker 2: the other things he was just mistaken about, like the clothes,

1500
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 2: like the underwear and jeans at the house.

1501
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: Could they have been friends? Could they? I mean, he

1502
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 1: doesn't report those for a while, right, So.

1503
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:01,720
Speaker 2: Even though he's says that he found them not long

1504
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 2: after the murder, you.

1505
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:05,759
Speaker 1: Know, he said a lot of things.

1506
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's hard to say, like we're gonna believe

1507
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 2: everything that Bob says, or we're gonna pick and choose

1508
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:15,759
Speaker 2: some of the things that we believe Bob said was true.

1509
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 2: Well we've you know what I mean, Like the audience

1510
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 2: is listening and they're like, well, Bob helps us in

1511
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,679
Speaker 2: this way, but it is ridiculous in this way.

1512
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:29,559
Speaker 4: Or because we have external verification again, like when he

1513
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:31,880
Speaker 4: talks about the underwear being in the saying and the

1514
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:35,599
Speaker 4: genes being there, we do know that at least somewhere

1515
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:38,599
Speaker 4: on this timeline, Anastasia cleaned herself up because her underwear

1516
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:41,280
Speaker 4: is clean, her body is clean, the pad is clean,

1517
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 4: so she had to clean herself up.

1518
01:30:43,600 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 6: So but with Bob, we look at him the same

1519
01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:49,439
Speaker 6: way we do Kelly. And so with Bob. I mean,

1520
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 6: the purse that he took a photograph of and email

1521
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:58,120
Speaker 6: to Detective Kilgore matched perfectly the description of the one

1522
01:30:58,160 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 6: that Dawn writes. AW, So that's pretty good evidence that

1523
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:07,080
Speaker 6: he's you know that the panties and the and the

1524
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:14,040
Speaker 6: genes and the laundry those support his theory that Anastasia

1525
01:31:14,040 --> 01:31:17,280
Speaker 6: went home. And so that's how we look.

1526
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:21,599
Speaker 2: At everything in the case a chance that don Rand

1527
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 2: was incorrect and identifying Anastasia on Truman Road that night that.

1528
01:31:28,080 --> 01:31:34,200
Speaker 9: Incorrect, it would be such a coincidence that they that

1529
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 9: they just happened to fabricate a story about Anastasia getting

1530
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 9: out of the car at around dusk, and then a

1531
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:47,439
Speaker 9: mechanic at that exact location looks at a picture over

1532
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:50,559
Speaker 9: and says, yeah, that's the girl I saw get out

1533
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 9: about dusk.

1534
01:31:52,120 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I asked Kelly about that. I was like,

1535
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,440
Speaker 2: what do you make of Don Rand having seen Anastasia?

1536
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:01,120
Speaker 2: And she was like, and don't quote me, because you know,

1537
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 2: but she said, we were stunned because it bolstered the

1538
01:32:06,400 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 2: story that we made up. We couldn't believe how how lucky,

1539
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:11,519
Speaker 2: we got that there was somebody.

1540
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:13,920
Speaker 8: Wait a minute, hold on, hold.

1541
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:18,559
Speaker 14: On when when when she exactly when was she stunned

1542
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 14: about that? When she says Byron right, he didn't know

1543
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:24,679
Speaker 14: that there was When did they find out that somebody

1544
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:26,599
Speaker 14: at a gas station says they saw her?

1545
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:30,559
Speaker 8: I don't know, but that's the that's my question for Kelly.

1546
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 9: When did you and Byron supposedly find out that an

1547
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:38,639
Speaker 9: independent witness saw Anastasia get out of the car, because

1548
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 9: if that was a week in the investigation.

1549
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 1: Exactly.

1550
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I didn't ask Kelly, but I was just

1551
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:53,000
Speaker 2: going to say, because Terra spoke with Don Round, what

1552
01:32:53,600 --> 01:32:57,680
Speaker 2: do you think is going to be the greatest likelihood

1553
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 2: of you getting Byron and a new trial? Will it

1554
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:05,040
Speaker 2: be the Brady violations or what?

1555
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,800
Speaker 9: We do believe that the Brady violations are the strongest

1556
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:13,240
Speaker 9: and clearest, especially the fact that they did not disclose

1557
01:33:13,320 --> 01:33:19,720
Speaker 9: Kelly's criminal record before trial. There's a Missouri black letter

1558
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 9: law right on point when you have a single witness

1559
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:29,080
Speaker 9: that you're resting your case on and you failed to disclose.

1560
01:33:30,800 --> 01:33:34,519
Speaker 8: Evidence related to their credibility new trial.

1561
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, the other claimed that I think is equally important

1562
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:45,160
Speaker 6: if not more so is a now Coup versus Illinois violation,

1563
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 6: which is the prosecutor presenting evidence that they know or

1564
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:53,240
Speaker 6: should know is false, and the transcript they used to

1565
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:57,200
Speaker 6: bolster Kelly's credibility is false. I wanted to point out

1566
01:33:57,240 --> 01:34:01,320
Speaker 6: that all this discussion we're having is discussion that should

1567
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 6: have happened in the jury deliberations. You know, you could

1568
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:08,679
Speaker 6: picture making the movie twelve Angry Men about this case,

1569
01:34:08,760 --> 01:34:11,720
Speaker 6: or twelve angry people about this case. We should be

1570
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:13,839
Speaker 6: you know, the jury should have been the one arguing

1571
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:16,200
Speaker 6: these facts, and they didn't get any of it. They

1572
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 6: barely got any of it. And we can lay the

1573
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:22,879
Speaker 6: blame at the police for not telling the prosecutor everything,

1574
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 6: not forwarding Bob's emails. We can blame the prosecutor for

1575
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:30,920
Speaker 6: not telling the defense about Kelly's conviction, the fact that

1576
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:35,040
Speaker 6: she's under warrant when she's giving statements and depositions about

1577
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:38,880
Speaker 6: the case. And you know, we can blame the prosecution

1578
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:44,120
Speaker 6: for producing a false transcript that all you need to

1579
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:47,840
Speaker 6: do is ask a court reporter like we did, to

1580
01:34:47,880 --> 01:34:50,559
Speaker 6: transcribe it and you get a truthful version of it.

1581
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:53,880
Speaker 6: This is what court reporters are trained to do and certify.

1582
01:34:54,080 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 6: So it's now certified beyond question that the state used

1583
01:34:58,360 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 6: a false transcript, and so under natpoo versus Illinois, if

1584
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:05,599
Speaker 6: there is any likelihood that it would have affected the verdict,

1585
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:09,439
Speaker 6: then Byron is entitled to a new trial. The big

1586
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 6: issue is always procedural technicalities. We're not just allowed to

1587
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:16,720
Speaker 6: walk into court and say, here's the new evidence, let

1588
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 6: him go. We have to show that somebody blocked this

1589
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:26,920
Speaker 6: evidence from getting into early Europeans and that's really the

1590
01:35:27,040 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 6: challenge for us.

1591
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:34,679
Speaker 2: Do you feel that Byron is legally innocent or factually innocent.

1592
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 6: I think he's factually innocent, And by factual innocence, I

1593
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:43,760
Speaker 6: mean he didn't kill anyone, And you know, legal innocence

1594
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:49,440
Speaker 6: and factual innocence is kind of a bizarre little distinction,

1595
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 6: but he didn't do it. And I believe that.

1596
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,639
Speaker 9: Yeah, I believe Byron is actually innocent. I didn't believe that.

1597
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:01,599
Speaker 9: I didn't have a opinion about that when I first

1598
01:36:01,840 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 9: got involved in the case.

1599
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:04,000
Speaker 8: When I first got involved in.

1600
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:06,040
Speaker 9: The case, I knew he was legally innocent because I

1601
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:08,040
Speaker 9: knew he didn't get a fair trial. And I believe

1602
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:11,640
Speaker 9: I don't everybody deserves a fair trial. What else is

1603
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:15,519
Speaker 9: the system if we don't have fairness? But you know,

1604
01:36:15,880 --> 01:36:19,799
Speaker 9: very quickly within getting into this case is when I

1605
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,639
Speaker 9: figured out and fully believe that he's actually innocent.

1606
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 8: It is not in Byron's character to do something like this.

1607
01:36:27,240 --> 01:36:30,680
Speaker 9: He just simply is not the kind of person that

1608
01:36:30,760 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 9: would be a you know, quote unquote thrill killer or something,

1609
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 9: or kill someone because they were annoying. He's too thoughtful,

1610
01:36:39,240 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 9: he's too empathetic, he's too good of a human to do.

1611
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:44,000
Speaker 8: Something like that.

1612
01:36:44,400 --> 01:36:47,479
Speaker 9: And the fact that there is not one shred of

1613
01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:53,519
Speaker 9: evidence other than his lying ex girlfriend to convict him

1614
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:57,920
Speaker 9: is Yeah, I have very strong feelings about that, and

1615
01:36:58,320 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 9: it makes me mad.

1616
01:36:59,160 --> 01:36:59,680
Speaker 8: It makes me.

1617
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 9: Sad, It makes me scared for other people that have

1618
01:37:02,520 --> 01:37:05,080
Speaker 9: to go through this system that seems to have no

1619
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:10,080
Speaker 9: interest in reforming itself or actually being fair when that matters.

1620
01:37:11,040 --> 01:37:14,320
Speaker 4: I believe Byron is innocent because I've done the investigation.

1621
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:17,439
Speaker 4: I went out and I talked to people, We had

1622
01:37:17,439 --> 01:37:22,160
Speaker 4: the forensic evidence examined by people who were finally provided

1623
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:25,120
Speaker 4: with the materials that they needed to do a true examination,

1624
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:29,679
Speaker 4: And at every turn, Byron is innocent. Every single time,

1625
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:34,439
Speaker 4: I have in the past started an investigation and found

1626
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:39,320
Speaker 4: definitive proof that someone was guilty, usually by DNA evidence,

1627
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 4: and it's heartbreaking, but you have to step away from

1628
01:37:43,040 --> 01:37:47,960
Speaker 4: those cases. I can't say someone is innocent without having

1629
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 4: done the investigation myself. I'm not going to put my

1630
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:53,320
Speaker 4: integrity or my reputation on the line to do that.

1631
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:58,880
Speaker 4: I believe Byron Case is innocent. Factually, legally, he did

1632
01:37:58,920 --> 01:37:59,479
Speaker 4: not do this.

1633
01:38:00,400 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 1: I believe Byron is actually innocent.

1634
01:38:02,040 --> 01:38:05,439
Speaker 10: I like Quinn, think that he's legally innocent and actually innocent.

1635
01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:07,840
Speaker 10: I don't know what it would take to get me

1636
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:08,439
Speaker 10: to change my mind.

1637
01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:11,360
Speaker 1: I was gonna have to take those facts as they come, So.

1638
01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:15,000
Speaker 11: I don't know, say the evidence in this case is

1639
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:15,919
Speaker 11: what really matters.

1640
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:20,439
Speaker 4: And you know, we can pontificate and theorize all day

1641
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:21,599
Speaker 4: about what really happened.

1642
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:24,320
Speaker 11: That's an interesting thing to do.

1643
01:38:24,479 --> 01:38:27,559
Speaker 4: But every time we do that, every time we talk

1644
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:30,160
Speaker 4: about theories about what happened, and none of those theories

1645
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 4: involved Byron.

1646
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:33,639
Speaker 11: And that's the point. Byron Case didn't do.

1647
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 2: This anything else before we say goodbye.

1648
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:41,360
Speaker 8: I don't think so.

1649
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:43,840
Speaker 9: I think we just we really appreciate the time and

1650
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:46,800
Speaker 9: attention that you've given to this, and we do.

1651
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:51,080
Speaker 8: We appreciate the fairness and the the.

1652
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,680
Speaker 9: That you are also fact checking us and trying to

1653
01:38:55,720 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 9: keep us honest. Then the new things even that you've

1654
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:03,040
Speaker 9: discovered has been very helpful and illuminating for us, and

1655
01:39:03,080 --> 01:39:04,040
Speaker 9: so we appreciate that.

1656
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:04,640
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1657
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 2: I don't even know where to begin with how to

1658
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:17,480
Speaker 2: end this season. I have said it since the beginning.

1659
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:21,679
Speaker 2: I have only been in search of the truth. Although

1660
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:25,360
Speaker 2: other people have been mentioned as potential persons of interest,

1661
01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:28,080
Speaker 2: doesn't it really come down to who do you believe

1662
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:34,560
Speaker 2: Byron or Kelly? By your Instagram comments, messages and emails,

1663
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 2: I can see there are listeners very much on both

1664
01:39:38,040 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 2: sides of the fence. It's pretty much divided. Byron has

1665
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:45,760
Speaker 2: told the same story since nineteen ninety seven. There's no

1666
01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 2: physical evidence that links him to the murder. His legal

1667
01:39:49,040 --> 01:39:52,040
Speaker 2: team says, there are people who saw Anastasia that night,

1668
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,320
Speaker 2: which proves she got out of the car, and her

1669
01:39:55,400 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 2: genes and the washing machine and underwear soaking in a

1670
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:01,920
Speaker 2: sink proved she went on home. They say, if she

1671
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:05,040
Speaker 2: got out of the car, Byron didn't do it. They say,

1672
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:08,439
Speaker 2: if she went home, Byron didn't do it. They also

1673
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 2: say the TACIT admission is now a moot point because

1674
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:14,560
Speaker 2: Byron now can be heard saying.

1675
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:16,639
Speaker 1: We should talk about this.

1676
01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 2: Kelly says she witnessed Anastasia's murder and the guilt she

1677
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,240
Speaker 2: felt caused her to spiral into a drug addiction that

1678
01:40:24,320 --> 01:40:27,559
Speaker 2: almost killed her. She says she didn't come forward for

1679
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 2: years because she was scared being told by Byron she

1680
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:35,320
Speaker 2: was as guilty as he was. She also says, before

1681
01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 2: being made to come forward, she told her dad, her

1682
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:43,240
Speaker 2: ex boyfriend Jim, and her friend Antigianino that Byron had

1683
01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:48,200
Speaker 2: murdered Anastasia. Kelly says she is iffy on some details,

1684
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 2: but remembers the important things, like Byron is the one

1685
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:56,719
Speaker 2: who pulled the trigger. About the TACIT admission call, Kelly asks,

1686
01:40:57,160 --> 01:40:58,720
Speaker 2: if Byron is innocent.

1687
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:01,040
Speaker 1: Why didn't he just deny.

1688
01:41:01,040 --> 01:41:04,679
Speaker 2: With all of the research and interviews we've done, there's

1689
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,640
Speaker 2: still so much you the listeners, and I haven't been

1690
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,000
Speaker 2: able to reconcile, Like the phone call Kelly says she

1691
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:17,000
Speaker 2: made from the gas station to Anastasia, whether or not

1692
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 2: Anastasia went home that night. The possibility that some of

1693
01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:24,640
Speaker 2: the eyewitnesses might have been wrong about what Anastasia was

1694
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:28,200
Speaker 2: wearing or even if they saw her at all. Why

1695
01:41:28,240 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 2: didn't Anastasia fight back or run? Why did Justin take

1696
01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:36,760
Speaker 2: his own life. Why didn't Byron deny anything in that

1697
01:41:36,880 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 2: June fifth call?

1698
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:39,439
Speaker 1: Patrick Rock?

1699
01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 2: Where were you that night, Bob? Why did you go

1700
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:45,439
Speaker 2: to the exact spot where Anastasia's body was found in

1701
01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:50,920
Speaker 2: Lincoln's cemetery before anyone informed you where it was prosecutors?

1702
01:41:51,439 --> 01:41:55,519
Speaker 2: Why allegedly were certain things withheld from Byron's defense team

1703
01:41:56,080 --> 01:41:59,679
Speaker 2: and Sergeant Kilgore. Why did this investigation.

1704
01:41:59,200 --> 01:42:01,000
Speaker 1: Seem to go so wrong?

1705
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:05,479
Speaker 2: Why were obvious things like phone records never pulled that

1706
01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:09,960
Speaker 2: could have potentially solved this case right away? Because it

1707
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:13,920
Speaker 2: seems the way this investigation was handled is really why

1708
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:19,679
Speaker 2: we have so many unanswered questions. Also, why did Kelly

1709
01:42:19,760 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 2: agree to talk with me She didn't have to, and

1710
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 2: why didn't some people want to talk people who had

1711
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 2: already written affidavits for Byron, Horton, Lance, doctor Thomas Young,

1712
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:37,719
Speaker 2: and Judge Charles Atwell. Like I said at the beginning

1713
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:40,639
Speaker 2: of this episode, although we have spent so much time

1714
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:44,040
Speaker 2: talking about Byron and Kelly and what can and can't

1715
01:42:44,040 --> 01:42:47,679
Speaker 2: be proven in this case. We must remember that all

1716
01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:52,679
Speaker 2: of this is about getting justice for Anastasia. Was justice served.

1717
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:56,640
Speaker 2: A lot of people, including Anastasia's family, say yes, the

1718
01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:00,680
Speaker 2: real killer is in prison, case closed. Others say no,

1719
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:07,560
Speaker 2: the real killer is still out there or dead. Regardless,

1720
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:11,839
Speaker 2: the courts will decide if Byron deserves a new trial

1721
01:43:12,280 --> 01:43:18,320
Speaker 2: or not. Thank you to everyone who participated, especially Anastasia's

1722
01:43:18,360 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 2: sisters Fran and Emma. Our hearts go out to you

1723
01:43:23,160 --> 01:43:33,160
Speaker 2: and your family. The views and opinions expressed in this

1724
01:43:33,280 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 2: podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast.

1725
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,160
Speaker 2: If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts

1726
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:47,880
Speaker 2: or a crisis, please no help is available. Call or

1727
01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:51,200
Speaker 2: text nine to eight eight, or chat online at the

1728
01:43:51,240 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 2: Suicide and Crisis Lifeline's website at nine eight eight lifeline

1729
01:43:56,280 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 2: dot org. To see photos, maps and documents related to

1730
01:44:00,120 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 2: this season's story, follow The Real Killer podcast on Instagram

1731
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:12,160
Speaker 2: and at TRK podcast on TikTok. The Real Killer is

1732
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:16,600
Speaker 2: a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia, hosted by me

1733
01:44:17,120 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 2: Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and Elisa Rosen for

1734
01:44:21,920 --> 01:44:27,360
Speaker 2: AYR Media. Written by Leah Rothman. Editing and sound design

1735
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:32,880
Speaker 2: by Cameron Taggi. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio

1736
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 2: engineer Justin Longerbeam studio engineer Graham Gibson. Legal council for

1737
01:44:39,640 --> 01:45:03,520
Speaker 2: AYR Media, Johnny Douglas, Executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard