1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: I've gotten contact with any Rule and I said, yeah, Well, 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: they thought you were going to do a book about 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: this story. And she said, well, I was, but it 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 2: was just too hard to do. I wasn't going to 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: spend all that time going over twenty years of murders. 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: I went, okay, well, I guess ignorance is bliss. I 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: didn't know what I was getting into to a stepped 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: in it. 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on 15 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some 17 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all 18 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: excellent writers. They've had so many great true crime stories, 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents 21 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make. Good 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind 23 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: the stories. Diane Fanning is a best selling true crime 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 1: author with true crime underlined several times. Her first book 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: is called Through the Window. She talked to me about 26 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: how that book came to be and about her time 27 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: with the serial killer at the center of it. 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: I have fifteen true crime books and eleven mystery novels. 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: How long have you been doing this since. 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: Two thousand and One's when I got my first contract. 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: Okay, twenty years So you know your way around a 32 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: true crime story. 33 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes I wonder why, but yes I do. 34 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: Tell me about Through the Window. 35 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: The book that I wrote that impacted my life the 36 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: most was Through the Window. And the reason it had 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: such an effect on me and why I wrote it 38 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: goes back to when I was nine years old. I 39 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: was walking through my neighborhood with a friend of mine, 40 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: and we lived in a place that was part rural 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: and part suburban. So you'd go through a field of 42 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: corn and then you'd see houses, and then you'd go 43 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: past the field of cows and see more houses. We 44 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: were walking downhill in front of a field of cows 45 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: when this car came to a stop and he asked 46 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 2: us for directions. We were trying to explain to him 47 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: how to get to where he wanted to go, and 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: he said, you know, I'm not understanding it. Could you 49 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: come show it to me on the map. So I 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: walked up to his car. He'd thrown open the door, 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: and instead of a map, he was exposing himself, and 52 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: he grabbed my upper arm and started pulling on me. 53 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 2: I was pulling back as hard as I could, but 54 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: I was a pretty little kid, and I was about 55 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: to lose that battle. Wow, When suddenly over the hill 56 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 2: came another car and he laid on his horn and 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: the guy that had hold of me let go and 58 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 2: sped off with his door flapping open. When he drove off, 59 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: I remembered what Sergeant Friday would want me to do, 60 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 2: because I was a big fan of Dragnet, So I 61 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 2: memorized his license plate number and I just kept repeating 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: it over and over in my head on my way home, 63 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: and I told my mom. She called the police. A 64 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: couple days later, they spotted him, pulled him over, and 65 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: in the trunk of his car they found the evidence 66 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 2: that one month before, he had sexually assaulted and murdered 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: an eight year old girl. 68 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 69 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: I was glad that he was stopped, but at the 70 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: same time I had questions. My two biggest questions were one, 71 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: why did he pick me? And two, oh, how could 72 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: anybody even do that? 73 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: But how do you answer those questions if you're just 74 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: a kid. 75 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: Back then, if you were a kid, you couldn't go 76 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: into the adult section of the library without your parents' permission. 77 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: So I got that, and I was signing out criminal 78 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: psychology books and pouring over them, and a lot of it. 79 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: When I first started reading, I didn't understand, but I 80 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: figured the more I read, the more it would start 81 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: making sense to me, and so I did. I read 82 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: through it, and then, of course I thought about that 83 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: incident from time to time throughout my life. 84 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: And then you told me that you learned about serial 85 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: killer Tommy Lynn Sells, and one of his survivors tell 86 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: me that story. 87 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: So it wasn't until I sat down one day to 88 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: watch forty eight Hours and saw this story about a 89 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: serial killer and saw the brave ten year old girl, 90 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 2: Crystal Searles, who had been in a bedroom with her 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: friend when the serial killer came in there and assaulted 92 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: and sliced the throat of her friend and then turned 93 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 2: to her on the top bunk of the bed and 94 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: ran the knife across her throat and left her for dead. 95 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: So when she heard the car pull off, she got 96 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 2: up and went outside at the nearest door and started 97 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 2: going at four am in the morning, up a dirt 98 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: and gravel road, past cactus and scorpions and tarantula's and 99 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 2: god knows what else. She walked past one neighbor's house, 100 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: which was about half a mile away, because she was 101 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: told never to go there. They weren't good people. And 102 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: she kept going to the next house. And in that 103 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: house was a very nice man who was indulging in 104 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: one of his lifetime habits, starting to watch the New 105 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: Year come on the TV with the earliest place that 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: New Year hit. So he was watching Australia and into Asia, 107 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: and he was watching all of this when she comes 108 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: knocking on his door. And she doesn't know it, but 109 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: because she can't speak, she has serious damage. Her vocal 110 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 2: cords are cut and she's bleeding. She's got this huge 111 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: cloud of blood under her neck. Remind me how old 112 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: she was ten years old, and herb invites her into 113 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: the house At first, she refuses to lay down on 114 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: his sofa and insists on laying on the kitchen floor 115 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: because she doesn't want to ruin his furniture. She tells 116 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: this all with notes, and she tells him to get 117 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: the cops. Everyone's dead. So they called for an ambulance 118 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: to call for the cops, and Crystal was airlifted out 119 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: of Del Rio, Texas to a hospital in San Antonio. 120 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: When she got in there, she was immediately rushed to surgery. 121 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: When she got out again, she was asking for a 122 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: pad of paper and a pen, and she wrote, get 123 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: the cops, and the police came. A Texas ranger came, 124 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: and they brought a forensic artist, and that little ten 125 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: year old girl who could not speak, was it's ill 126 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: able to communicate well enough that the artist got a 127 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: rendering of him, and within an hour they knew exactly 128 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: who they were looking for, and they arranged to go 129 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: out and have him arrested. 130 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: What an amazing story of survival. 131 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: Yes it is. And if you saw her sitting up 132 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 2: on the witness stand, you could still see vividly the 133 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: scar across her neck, and she was dressed in pink 134 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: and looking like the sweetest thing in the world. And 135 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: she sat up there and raised her finger and pointed 136 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: it right. It sells. That takes a lot of courage. 137 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: Some adults have serious problems with doing something like that, 138 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: and yet she did it, and she was instantly my hero. 139 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: I had to write her story. So I sat down 140 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: and threw together a chapter and figured, what the heck, 141 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: what do I have to lose? I'm and try to 142 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: get an agent failing for so long, so I shot 143 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: off an email to Jane Distal with a sample trapter, 144 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: and within twenty four hours I had an agent. She 145 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: walked me through everything. I didn't know how to write 146 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 2: a book proposal. She walk me through that, helped me 147 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: edit it, and then she submitted it, and I've got 148 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: two different publishers offered me two book deals based on 149 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: that chapter and my proposal, and then I was often running. 150 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: And then something incredible happened, especially for an author writing 151 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: her first book. The serial killer agreed to meet with 152 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: you for a series of interviews, which is totally not normal. 153 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: Tommy Linsels couldn't even keep track of his own murders. Right. 154 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: We first started with his crimes, and it was very 155 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: bizarre listening to him talk about all of them, but 156 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: he started with the ones. He wasn't sure which was 157 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: his first murder, but he gave me two. He said 158 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: it could be one of these I discovered through this 159 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: and many other crimes. He talked about that he always 160 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: wanted to find a way to blame his victim, so 161 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: in this case, he said he broke into the house 162 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: because he was hungry, and he showed that he'd got 163 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: into the refrigerator. He dragged coat a bottle of milk 164 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: out of the refrigerator, and he had a little cheap, 165 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 2: cheesy Saturday night special kind of gun, and he'd never 166 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 2: used it before. But when the homeowner woke up and 167 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: came out there, he shot at him to escape. He 168 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: just basically just shot at him, didn't stick around to 169 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 2: find out anything, and left. The homeowner did die, and 170 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 2: Cells explained why he did it. He said, because that 171 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 2: man was abusing his son. There is no other evidence 172 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: anywhere at any time that that man did that. 173 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: But what is the psychology behind that? Is it to 174 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: make himself look good to other people? What is it? 175 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: I think both to some degree, he justifies it in 176 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: his own mind, and then I think it sort of 177 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: becomes a truth for him. He kept going, traveling across 178 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: the country in all sorts of parts of the country. 179 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: He went up to Oregon, he killed two girls there. 180 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: He went back to the East Coast. He went to 181 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: his hometown just near Saint Louis, Missouri, to visit his family. 182 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: But what would happen with him was that every time 183 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: he got into a fight, first with his mother and 184 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 2: then later with a wife, he would take off and 185 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: go kill somebody. 186 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's his coping mechanism. 187 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I think he probably wanted to kill the person 188 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: close to him, but he had sense enough to know 189 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: that he would get caught. So he just began this 190 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: ragtag life of popping around all over the country, and 191 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: sometimes he would do the oddest things. He was arrested 192 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: in Wyoming for stealing tires off a truck. But why 193 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 2: did he steal the tires Because there's this young guy 194 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: and his pregnant wife whose tires were bald. It was 195 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 2: just too dangerous for them to be dry anywhere, but 196 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: they were going to need to go to the hospital 197 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: at some point, and so he stole tires from another 198 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: truck to give them to this guy. It's somehow buried 199 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: in him was a little bit of an altruistic impulse. 200 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: That's a scary thing about serial killers. They are just 201 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 2: all monsters. You can't look at them and see it 202 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: in their face. 203 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: I had a forensic scientist tell me something that I 204 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: think is pretty interesting. She said that serial killers have morals, 205 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: they have feelings. They're just totally different than most of 206 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: society's morals and feelings. So they have their own standards 207 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: and their own minds to not cross. But they're separate 208 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: from the rest of us exactly. 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: And when I asked him about one crime that the 210 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: DA was suspicious that he had committed, he said, I 211 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: wouldn't ever do that. I wouldn't rape an old woman. 212 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: Of course, he raped young women and women, but the 213 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 2: thought of doing it to a woman in her sixties 214 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 2: was just to pour it to him, it's very unusual. 215 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Let's go back and talk about your approach to Tommy 216 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: lynn Sells, who is the serial killer in the story. 217 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: So you just wrote him a letter and said, Hi, 218 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm an author and I'm writing a story and I 219 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: want to talk to you, and he said sure. 220 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 2: Basically, that was it. Wow, And in a way, I 221 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: just got lucky he had been given the death penalty 222 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: in September of two thousand and then he had been 223 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: in the prison up in Livingston on death row. Then 224 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: he was moved down in connection with another case, to 225 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: the county jail, bever County Jail in San Antonio. I 226 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: at the time was living in a little town outside 227 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: of San Antonio, so it was easy for me to 228 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: make my way in to see him, and so I 229 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: wrote him a letter, and I was honest with him 230 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: about what I was going to do. I didn't use 231 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: any trickery. But he was sitting in there. He had 232 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: not had a single visitor since he went off to prison, 233 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 2: so that's why he said yes, because he just wanted 234 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 2: to see somebody. And at first he did not want 235 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: to talk to me or answer my questions away. I 236 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: wanted if he wanted to talk to me about how 237 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: much money I was going to send him, what I 238 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: was going to pay him, and I told him I 239 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: can't do that, it's not ethical. So then we got 240 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: down to business a little bit, and then he wanted 241 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: to call me at home and he wanted sex talk calls, 242 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: which I had to shew him away on that one too, 243 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: And finally we got down to a serious interview. 244 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: He wanted dirty talk on the phone. Gross. 245 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. He wanted me to give him my phone number 246 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 2: so that I could talk sexy to him on the phone, 247 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: which is kind of disgusting, but I imagine it's kind 248 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: of normal for men who are locked up. 249 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about him 250 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: and what led him to all of this. 251 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: The only time I felt any sympathy at all for 252 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: Sales was when he talked about his childhood. It was awful. 253 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: He was born a twin and when he was eighteen 254 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 2: months old, him and his twin both got extremely ill, 255 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: and his sister passed away. Right after that. His mother 256 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: was planning on moving, and she asked her aunt to 257 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: take care of her son while she did the move. 258 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: Because he was so little, he'd get in the way 259 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: all the time. So she took him in and then 260 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: his mother just sort of forgot about him, and he 261 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: was there for three years, and suddenly it was time 262 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: for him to go to school. And by this time 263 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 2: Tommy had integrated with her family. She had two teenage girls. 264 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: They loved him as much as they could love a 265 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: new little brother, because he had been so little when 266 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: he came there and there was a strong attachment. And 267 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 2: when she called and asked his mother to get some 268 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: papers saying that she had guardianship of him or even 269 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: she said she adopting him if that was wanted, but 270 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: she needed some papers to give her the authority to 271 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: register him for school. Well, Nina, his mother got extremely 272 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: upset at that, and she came and got him, took 273 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: him out of that house. It would not let him 274 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 2: see his aunt or his cousins ever again. Then a 275 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: little while later, when she kind of got tired of him, 276 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: when he was seven, she let him go to live 277 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: with a pedophile. 278 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: Oh no, did she know that? 279 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: She claimed later that she didn't, but I think that 280 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: she probably had heard the rumors. This is a mother 281 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: who had a number of other children. Tommy wasn't the 282 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 2: only one. But I think she deeply resented Tommy because 283 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 2: she had so many boys and she wanted a girl, 284 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: and it was the girl that died instead of Tommy. 285 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: So she was very resentful of him, so she just 286 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: let him go to live with this known pedophile. It 287 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 2: doesn't justify the adult decisions that Sales made. If only 288 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: he'd been saved by his aunt and been able to 289 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: stay with her, maybe he wouldn't have been so messed up. 290 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: We just don't know. 291 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: How did he describe that story. 292 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: He seemed that he was speaking from a voice of 293 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: anger about it, and he talked about some of the 294 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 2: things you would try to think about in the time 295 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 2: that went on when he was abused. Overever, he's with 296 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: this guy for years, and he is a psychopath, and 297 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: he is a manipulator, and so those people lie. So 298 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: I decided to call his mother and ask her about it, 299 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: and ask her, this is what Tommy told me, and 300 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: I want you to tell me if any of this 301 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: is wrong. So I went through everything that he told 302 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: me that had happened, and she said, well, a lot 303 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 2: of people get treated even worse. They don't go around 304 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: killing people. 305 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: Okay, good point, but it's also a terrible thing to 306 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: say about your own child. So let's talk about him 307 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: as a young man. 308 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: So by the time he was fifteen, he was pretty 309 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: much on the road, and he would come back to 310 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: home from time to time to see his brothers and 311 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: spend time with his mother, but he'd keep going out, 312 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: get angry and then go out and hit the road. 313 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 2: And he would either steal a vehicle, or on occasion 314 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: he owned vehicles, or he would hitchhike, or he would 315 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: ride the rails, and he would just grub around making 316 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 2: a living by either going to resort towns and offering 317 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: to take pictures, to help people take their pictures, or 318 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: wash windshields, or he'd go and work at a fast 319 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: food restaurant, or he'd go to one of those day 320 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 2: labor places and wait to be picked out to go 321 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: do work. He just roamed around all over the place. 322 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: Well, it seems like he's actually working legitimately, but is 323 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: he breaking in the houses or committing any other crimes 324 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: that you know of? In these early years. 325 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: Well, there was extensive drug use. He started drinking alcohol 326 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 2: when he was seven, and he then started accumulating this 327 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: incredibly long list of other drugs that he used and abused. 328 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: And he didn't always know where he was, and a 329 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 2: lot of the people that he murdered, of course, he 330 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 2: didn't know their names. But he would talk about things 331 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: like a black man in downtown to Troy that he 332 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: killed and threw the body into a dumpster. Now, when 333 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 2: you're talking about something like that twenty years after the fact, 334 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 2: you're not going to remember details well, particularly if you're 335 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 2: under the influence of drugs, and it's going to be 336 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: hard to track down. And a lot of his crimes 337 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: are like that, and sometimes he would get things a 338 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 2: little mixed up. But he also had an uncanny knack 339 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 2: for remembering tiny details like Tucan sam cap hanging in 340 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 2: someone's house, or a Tommy Hill figure label laying on 341 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 2: top of a dresser. There are things that he could 342 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 2: scrape out of his mind that really give a lot 343 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: of credibility to the story he's telling. And he went 344 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: on for a couple decades without being a suspect in 345 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: any of these murders. Yes, he was arrested for other things, 346 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 2: but never for murder. No one ever looked at him 347 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 2: for mur. 348 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: You said that no one ever looked at tommyland Sells 349 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: for murder. Is that because of the people he was targeting? 350 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 2: A lot of it was because he had a couple 351 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: of very good street wise happens. One if he touched 352 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: anything that he couldn't clean the fingerprints off, he took 353 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: it with him. Like in his last murder, he took 354 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 2: the screens off the windows and took them along and 355 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: throw them in a lake, so he's very good at that. 356 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: And the other thing was he made it a habit 357 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: of committing his crimes in small towns and then getting 358 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: out of town before people even knew that the person 359 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: was dead, and a lot of times the bodies weren't 360 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: found till much later. Some of the bodies have never 361 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: been found, and and some of it's been years and 362 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 2: years before they've been found. It was in the time 363 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: before DNA, and in the time before state cooperation with 364 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: small law enforcement groups in rural towns. It was before 365 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: that was established as something that was ordinary instead of extraordinary. 366 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: So he picked those kind of settings, got out of town, 367 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: and there was nobody looking for it. 368 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: Why was he doing all of this, these random crimes. 369 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: They were not all sex crimes. You really think it 370 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: was anger at people who were close to him and 371 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: people he felt like he couldn't act out against. 372 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 2: Part of it was that. And then there was the 373 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: fact that when I asked him what he used all 374 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: sorts of methods to kill people, and I said, which 375 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: do you prefer, and he said, I'd like manual strangulation, 376 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: so it can hold their throat in my hands and 377 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: watch the fade from their eyes. He found pleasure in 378 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 2: that power. And he also was very very angry about, 379 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: as he said it, being left behind. Back when he 380 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 2: went to prison in Texas, George W. Bush was governor 381 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: and he used to talk about the children being left behind, 382 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: and Sales adopted that line, and he said, what about me? 383 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 2: I was left behind? And it's true that he was, 384 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 2: but he took it as a justification for who he was. 385 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: Can you give me a demographic of who his known 386 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: victims were? Did he gravitate towards certain types of people? 387 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: Not? At first he confessed fifty murders and said he 388 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: was only seventy percent don And at first he killed men, women, children, 389 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: He didn't care. He just wanted to kill. And then 390 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 2: when he met Fabian Witherspoon, she was a woman who 391 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: was a weebit older than him, and she was athletic. 392 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: Once he encountered her and sexually assaulted her and tried 393 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: to kill her, but she fought back so ferociously. Her 394 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: first attack was to grab the ceramic duck on the 395 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 2: back of the toilet and smash him in the head. 396 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: In doing so, she was able to get his knife 397 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: and she cut him really bad. He ended up being 398 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 2: in the hospital for ten days after she got through 399 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: with him, but she was left on the floor, bloodied 400 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: and left for dead. But they tracked him down. Unfortunately, 401 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: because that woman, Fabian, had had some mental health issues 402 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 2: that she had addressed and gotten help for. The prosecutor 403 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 2: didn't feel like he could get a conviction on the 404 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: rapes and all the sexual assault part of it, so 405 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: he did a plea bargain and it ended up Sales 406 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: only got five years in prison. 407 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: This was nineteen ninety two. 408 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 2: That's terrible, yeah, and poor Fabian carried her just guilt 409 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 2: for a long time when she found out what else 410 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 2: had done. That he got out of prison and then 411 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: went around killing a lot of other people, and she 412 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: felt responsible because she hadn't been able to put him 413 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: in jail. But I told her, I said, because you 414 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: put him away for five years, many lives were spared. 415 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 2: But after that point he went mostly after children and 416 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: sometimes petite women, but he wouldn't go after anyone his 417 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 2: own size. He killed this woman who was like maybe 418 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 2: five to one, and then he killed her four year 419 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: old son, and I said, he was four years old. 420 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: He wouldn't be able to identify you. Why did you 421 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: kill him, and he said, well, if I hadn't killed him, 422 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: he would have been an orphan, and somehow to him 423 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: that was worse. 424 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: Okay, let's get to the case that you solved, and 425 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and summarize it. So this happened 426 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, just four months after Cells was 427 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: released from prison. Ten year old Joel Kirkpatrick was in 428 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: his bedroom in Lawrenceville, Illinois, in the middle of the night. 429 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: The boy's mother, Julie Ray, said she heard him screaming 430 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: in the bedroom. She ran into a man wearing a 431 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: ski mask. She fought him all the way to the 432 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: backyard until he broke away and ran off. Joel was 433 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: stabbed to death using a stake knife from their house. 434 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: Julie Ray was arrested. No one believes her story, and 435 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: she's sentenced to sixty five years in prison. So fast 436 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: forward to two thousand and two and you are currently 437 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: interviewing Tommy lynn Sell's You Go home and watch TV 438 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: for the night. 439 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've got private investigators and law enforcement and 440 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: families who'd lost the loved on calling me up with 441 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: questions for him. And I was kind of sick of 442 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 2: talking to him to be honest, but they gave me 443 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: this responsibility and I had no way to get around it. 444 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 2: So one night I was watching a show on twenty 445 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 2: twenty in the case of Julie Ray was up, and 446 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 2: there was her lawyer and her family and her friends, 447 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: and Julie herself saying she was guilty. But I knew 448 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: enough about true crime at that point that I go, yeah, 449 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: that's what they all say. I was very, very skeptical 450 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,479 Speaker 2: until I heard what the prosecuting attorney had to say, 451 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 2: and he said that there were no fingerprints found in 452 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: that home. Well, the house was not thoroughly dusted for 453 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: fingerprints for one. The second was that nobody goes into 454 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: your home and uses a weapon from your home, like 455 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: the knife from the kitchen to commit a crime. Well, 456 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 2: sells are done that a lot, so I knew that 457 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: was BS. And there were a couple of other things 458 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: he said that I thought, Okay, I'm gonna explain to Seals. 459 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 2: He got mad at the Texas Rangers because of something 460 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 2: they asked him that was a question from another law 461 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,479 Speaker 2: enforcement did and I told him, this is the crap 462 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: that comes around and they hear about. I told him 463 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: about what the district attorney said about Julie Ray and 464 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 2: how she'd been setting sixty five years in prison. I 465 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: told him nothing about where it was, when it happened, 466 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: or any names of any people. He came back at 467 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: me with, was this maybe a murder a couple of 468 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,199 Speaker 2: days before the one I committed in Springfield, Missouri, maybe 469 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: on the thirteenth. So I looked up dates and in 470 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: his letter, I mean and that was exactly right. And 471 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: he also said, listen, there are a lot of people 472 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: behind bars for crimes I committed, and I don't really care. 473 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: And so I started to think about what I could do. 474 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: I knew he hadn't seen the show I'd seen because 475 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 2: he was on death row and he didn't get any 476 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: chance to watch TV. So I asked if someone told 477 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 2: him about the case, and he said, no, I know 478 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: a lot more about murder than you do, and he 479 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: had to admit that was true. So I went in 480 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 2: to see him to get more information, and he talked 481 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 2: to me in detail about the crime and what he 482 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 2: had done, and told me that the reason he had 483 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: done it is that he met Juliet at a convenience 484 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: store and she was rude to him and she saw 485 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 2: that Julie get his son, and he did not want 486 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: that boy to grow up and be like his mother, 487 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 2: a rude person. So that end that he wanted her 488 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: to remember how rude she'd been every time she thinks 489 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: about her dead son. 490 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: How unreal. What did she remember about that encounter anything. 491 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 2: I know that if she was rude to him, it's 492 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: probably because he used some sleazy pickup line on her, 493 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: and so she just walked away and she doesn't remember 494 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 2: that even happening. I mean, I sure wouldn't remember somebody 495 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: who did that to me. So I thought there might 496 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: be something to this, and even if CELLS didn't do it, 497 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: then someone very much like him could have. And you know, 498 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 2: I was always aware of him using me and manipulating me. 499 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 2: So I started looking around for facts, and I realized 500 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 2: the only thing I can do at this point is 501 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: just put it in my book. Write it in a 502 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: way so that I'm not necessarily saying he did it, 503 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 2: but I'm saying this is what he confessed to, and 504 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: then somebody who knows more than I do can take 505 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: that information and run with it. So I wrote it. 506 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 2: I didn't dwell on it a whole lot. I mean 507 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: there were so many murders in the book, one after 508 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: another after another, and I just sat back and waited 509 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: for something to happen. And it took two months after 510 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: the book was released, and the first thing I got 511 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 2: was an email from Julie's mother, and she was asking 512 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: me if I would be willing to talk to Julie's 513 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 2: appeals attorney. So I said sure, So I talked to him. 514 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: I shared information I had in my files about Sales. 515 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: I had some of his medical records, which I shouldn't 516 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: have had, really, but Sales actually sent the copies to me, 517 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: so I didn't do anything wrong to get them. And 518 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 2: so he took it before the judge and he wanted 519 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 2: to enter my book as evidence. And the judge read 520 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 2: through my book and what he learned was that there 521 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: was a piece of evidence. It's a piece of hair 522 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: in little Jol's hand when he died, and the prosecutor 523 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: was refusing to test that. So he told the defense attorney, 524 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: he said, don't turn this book in. You'll need to 525 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: use it as new evidence in the new trial, he said, 526 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: and I'm going to order the district attorney to test 527 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 2: that hair. So that moved forward and she was granted 528 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: a new trial, and the day her family and friends 529 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: were waiting in the parking lot for her to walk 530 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: out of jail without a charge depending on her Then 531 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: they showed up that day from her county and rearrested 532 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 2: her and charged her with murder again. So she never 533 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 2: got even a hug and went back into prison. And 534 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 2: that's when my help was enlisted by a private detective 535 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: with the Innocence Project, and he had found two witnesses 536 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: in that small town who had seen someone matching Sales's 537 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 2: description that weekend in town. One of them said he'd 538 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: acted inappropriately to his son and he had to tell 539 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: him to buzz off. Another one said, I sold him 540 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: a ticket to Winnemaca, Nevada on the bus. Now, Sells 541 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: had already committed a murder in Winnemaca, and although he 542 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: didn't immediately use that ticket, he got off in the interim. 543 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: He then got a arrived on the bus and went 544 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: back to Winnemaca to celebrate the tenth anniversary of the 545 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: woman he killed there. 546 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: Did he do that regularly or is this just a 547 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: one time thing. 548 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,239 Speaker 2: That's the only time I knew have him paying an 549 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: anniversary trip that's crazy. 550 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: Do you think this is something that many serial killers do. 551 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I know that there are trophies and revisiting 552 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: the crime scene. Ed Kimper did that, But I've never 553 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: heard of someone celebrating an anniversary. 554 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: No, they have caught some killers who have gone back 555 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: to a grave site on an annual versary. I think 556 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: it's very unusual, and I think part of what drove 557 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: him there was he wanted to get as far away 558 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: from Illinois as he could. That was part of it. 559 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 2: And the other thing was that he knew that her 560 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 2: body had never been found. He knew that her parents 561 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: were wealthy and they'd spent a lot of money trying 562 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: to find her, and only he knew where her body was. 563 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: And he also knew that he put her body in 564 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: a boiling hot springs and that there was probably nothing 565 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: left of it. 566 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: What ultimately happens with Julie Ray With that. 567 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,719 Speaker 2: Case, Julie Ray faced a new trial. I provided an 568 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: affidavit for that trial. I was asked to testify, but 569 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: by the time it came to trial, I'd already tangled 570 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: with the prosecutor at a prisoner review board hearing, and 571 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: I'd read the passage from the letter that I said 572 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: to Cells and basically made him look like an idiot, 573 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: and he did not want me coming back into the 574 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: courtroom and reading those words again, which he knew I would, 575 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 2: so he just accepted my affidavit as evidence, and the 576 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: affidavit was given to the jury. And I'm kind of 577 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: glad because I didn't want the attention and realized all 578 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: the attention needed to be on Julie and on her innocence, 579 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 2: not on me, because I was really irrelevant to what 580 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 2: she was facing. So I was glad I was kept 581 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: out of the courtroom and she ended up being acquitted, 582 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: And then afterwards she had a choice. She could go 583 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: for reparations for her unlawful imprisonment or she could go 584 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: for a certificate of actual innocence. She chose the latter 585 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 2: because she wanted justice for her son. 586 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: So she passed over money in order to pursue a 587 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: claim of innocence. It's ridiculous that they even have to 588 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,959 Speaker 1: make you choose. Why have I never heard of this before? 589 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 2: I thought that was absolutely nuts too. But she did 590 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 2: eventually get her actional certificate of innocence, which meant that, 591 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: according to the State of Illinois. This is as good 592 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 2: as never happened, as if she'd never been charged, as 593 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: she'd never been considered. 594 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: What did the prosecutor initially say was Julie's motive for 595 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: killing her son? Was it the who else could have 596 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: done it? Kind of motive? 597 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: Well, she had one big problem in her case, well 598 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: more than one. One of them was that she was 599 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 2: just a grad student and her parents were retired missionaries, 600 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: so nobody had the money to hire lawyers, so she 601 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: got a pro bono lawyer who, by his own admission, 602 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: was in over his head. Oh. On top of that, 603 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: she had an ex husband who was now a cop, 604 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: and he was very, very bitter, and they had a 605 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 2: very bitter custody battle, and he suggested, and the sheriff 606 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: jumped on it, that she killed him because her ex 607 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: husband had won custody. And the reason he won custody 608 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 2: was because he was now remarried, had a stable home environment, 609 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 2: and she was just a grad student. 610 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 1: If you're in a small town and there's a kid 611 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: that's dead and there's no fingerprints, what seems more likely 612 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: the mother who's going through trauma, or some maniac who 613 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,280 Speaker 1: breaks in and manages to clean up his own mess. 614 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: What's that guy's motive? Was the child sexually assaulted? 615 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: No, he was stabbed to death. But here's the thing, Kate. 616 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: Both those people who saw cells doing suspicious things that weekend, 617 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 2: when they heard about the murder of Joel, they immediately 618 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 2: went to the sheriff and said, I saw this man, 619 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: and they said, oh, I'll send a deputy around to 620 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 2: take your statement. The sheriff never sent a deputy around, 621 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 2: and they knew nothing until one day when the newspaper 622 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: splashed Tommy lynn Sells picture across the front page, and 623 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 2: they went, that's him, That's the man I saw. 624 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: Does that seem right to you? Does it seem a 625 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: little like Henry Lee Lucas confessing to literally more murders 626 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: than he could possibly have done. 627 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, considering he had two decades to do it, 628 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: it's not that many. And the other thing is that 629 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: some of his murders that he had confessed to were 630 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 2: very anonymous, so nobody could ever confirm them. But still 631 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: more than twenty of them were confirmed. Most of his 632 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 2: victims were just regular people. One of them was homeless, 633 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 2: two of them that he didn't know the names of 634 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: were just hit shrikers in Oregon, and there were a 635 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: lot of that sort of thing. I mean Stephanie Strow, 636 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 2: she was hit shriking when he picked her up and 637 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 2: then murdered her. And there were lots of people that 638 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 2: he just simply encountered and there wasn't a type. And 639 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,479 Speaker 2: he also said to me that he thought that Ted 640 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: Bundy was a pervert because he could only kill one 641 00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: type of person. 642 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: So Julie Ray is released, and you're given all of 643 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: this credit. It's your first book. You have been struggling 644 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: to even find an agent, let alone a publisher. 645 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'd never done anything like this before. Yeah, 646 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: I'd worked for newspapers, but you know, mostly it was 647 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: fluff stuff I did. It wasn't serious journalism by any stretch. 648 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: And I was raised in a very sheltered life, so 649 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to expect. Sure, he was the 650 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: most evil person I'd ever met, but I didn't know 651 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: how intense that would be, and I didn't know how 652 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 2: to compare him to anybody else. I do know that 653 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 2: I often left there feeling tainted, and sometimes I feel 654 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 2: worse when he acted normal. So like one day he 655 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 2: didn't want to answer any questions. All he wanted to 656 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 2: do is tell me jokes and funny stories. And I 657 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: laughed with him, and then I loved there, and I 658 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,399 Speaker 2: felt like a horrible person because I laughed with this 659 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 2: despicable human being. 660 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: I think there's a general disdain about books that focus 661 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: on serial killers, because it sounds like the writers might 662 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: be glorifying either the crimes of the killers. How do 663 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: you think your book is different from that, because I 664 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: think it's pretty different. 665 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 2: Well, the way I can tell it's different is because 666 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 2: for a long time, I continued to hear from the 667 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: family members of victims who appreciated what I had done. 668 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 2: And there was this one woman who had sold everything 669 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 2: she owned and bought a travel trailer. Every once in 670 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,799 Speaker 2: a while, about once a month, i'd hear from her. 671 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 2: She'd stop in a library somewhere, go in and use 672 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 2: the internet and send me an email and tell me 673 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: where she was and what she had been doing, and 674 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: how she still felt about sales, and now how angry 675 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 2: she was that they hadn't definitely linked him to her 676 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: daughter's murder. And there were people too that came up 677 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 2: to me and would tell me things like, I read 678 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: your book and I have a teenage daughter who was 679 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 2: very naive and if someone told her he had puppies 680 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 2: in the car, she'd go up to the call. I 681 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: made her read that book, and now she's cautious. Someone 682 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 2: approaches us, she gets behind me as a sheield now 683 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: and she said, I think you saved my daughter's life. 684 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 2: So when I get that kind of feedback from others, 685 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: it really makes me feel that I've done the right thing. 686 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: I've put enough focus on victims, because to me, the 687 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 2: victims are the most important thing in the books. 688 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: Circling back to Crystal, who is the ten year old 689 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 1: girl who was attacked. She was Tommy Lynn Cell's last victim. 690 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: Do you have any idea how she's doing now. 691 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, she went to college and she moved back to Kansas, 692 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 2: and she's doing pretty well, leading a normal life and 693 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 2: trying to stay out of the spot life most of 694 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: the time. 695 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 1: Tell me about the end of your relationship with Tommy 696 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: Lynn Cells. 697 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 2: Well, he called it quits with me because he got 698 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: new spiritual advisors, and his spiritual advisors told him that 699 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 2: I was a bad influence. So that's when we cut 700 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 2: it off and he was executed in April. I think 701 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: it was about eight years ago. 702 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Do you think he wanted to be executed or would 703 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: he have preferred to just live on death row forever 704 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 1: and ever and ever. 705 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 2: He liked to complain a whole lot about how horrible 706 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 2: things were and how he just wanted to be executed, 707 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 2: But then the next time he's talking about fighting for 708 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: his life and stuff. I'm sure he had down moments 709 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: when he just wanted to get it over with, but 710 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 2: for the most part, see, he liked prison life. He 711 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 2: told me that in a prison, you know what all 712 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,439 Speaker 2: the rules are, you know what you can and cannot do. 713 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: There's no gray area. And out there where you all live, 714 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: he says, things change all the time. Rules change all 715 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 2: the time. Nothing is consistent. 716 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: Let's sort of end on a cautionary tale. There is 717 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: a danger that journalists who encounter serial killers might be manipulated. 718 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: How do you know whether you're being manipulated or not? 719 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: If you are in a position as a journalist or 720 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 1: someone who is communicating with someone like Tommy Lee sels. 721 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 2: I learned to read him better than somebody who had 722 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 2: just talked to him. Once I knew where the signs were, 723 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,759 Speaker 2: and to be honest with you, I used some of 724 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 2: that to manipulate him back, and I was very careful 725 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 2: to hide my true feelings, which was someone like me 726 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,919 Speaker 2: who is very demonstrative. That was one of the most 727 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 2: difficult things of all. But for him, he just wanted 728 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 2: me coming back because he wasn't getting visitors much and 729 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 2: that was what mattered to him. And he would treat 730 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 2: me differently all the time. Sometimes he would be angry 731 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 2: with me. One time he was so incredibly angry that 732 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 2: I thought he was going to rip the little table 733 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 2: off of his side of the booths. He had hazel eyes, 734 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: so they changed a lot, but this time they changed dramatically, 735 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 2: and the anger in his face was so intense, and 736 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 2: the shape of his face seemed to change because he 737 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 2: was furious at something I told him that I had 738 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 2: gotten from a sheriff. And I was really scared. Yeah, 739 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 2: there was the plexiglass between me, and there were armed 740 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: guards nearby, but I was still scared because that was 741 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 2: the most intense rage I'd ever seen in my life. 742 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 2: But I never thought he could harm me. I mean, 743 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 2: after I was locked up, so I grabbed up his 744 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 2: letters and I went in and I talked to a 745 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 2: psychiatrist and I also talked to a psychologist, had them 746 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 2: look at the letters and stuff, and they both said 747 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,879 Speaker 2: basically the same thing. They said, Yes, if he gets out, 748 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 2: he's coming straight for you. He won't be coming for 749 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 2: you to hurt you. He'll be coming to get you 750 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 2: to run away with him. When you don't do that, 751 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 2: that's what he's going to hurt you. That was pretty scary. 752 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked, Words James Stewart on 753 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,800 Speaker 1: murder inside the Blue Sea Cottage. 754 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 2: Her mother just kept telling her, where are you going? 755 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 2: Why don't you tell me where you're going, And Fritzi 756 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 2: just says, quiet place, don't worry. Well, she wasn't going 757 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 2: to a house party in Del Laar, Okay. 758 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: It was a cover story. 759 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 2: The next day her body was found on Tory Pine Speech. 760 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: My new book All That Is Wicked is available for 761 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All that Is Wicked 762 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked. 763 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 764 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 765 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 766 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: right tenfold More media production. The producer is Alexis Mrosi. 767 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. 768 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: Curtis heath Is. Our composer, Nick Toga did the artwork. 769 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: Ilsabrink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 770 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram 771 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more wicked and on Twitter at 772 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: tenfold more and if you know of a historical crime 773 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: that could use some attention, especially if it happened in 774 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: your family, email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. 775 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for 776 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: Wicked Words