Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Good Morning, This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part
Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how
Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any advice.
Speaker 3: They have for the rest of us.
Speaker 2: So today I am delighted to welcome Jenna Free to
Speaker 2: Before Breakfast. Jenna is a therapist, an expert on ADHD,
Speaker 2: and is the author of the brand new book, The
Speaker 2: Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation.
Speaker 3: Jenna, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so excited to talk with you about this topic.
Speaker 1: Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 4: Absolutely so. I'm a therapist. I was diagnosed with ADHD
Speaker 4: at the age of thirty two while in grad school
Speaker 4: to become a therapist. I have been working with clients
Speaker 4: for about three years now, and in working with them,
Speaker 4: learned about myself and found a strong connection that adhders
Speaker 4: are almost always in fight or flight and that dysregulated
Speaker 4: state is what causes a lot of our struggles, not
Speaker 4: the DHD itself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 2: Being diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, I mean for SARTs.
Speaker 2: Did you go like, oh, yeah, that explains a lot
Speaker 2: when you heard that.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And that's why I saw it sought it because
Speaker 4: I was like, Mmmm, this can't be normal. I don't
Speaker 4: think life is supposed to be this hard.
Speaker 2: Well, what was it that was tripping tipping you off
Speaker 2: that that might be the case.
Speaker 4: It was like for many women after I had two
Speaker 4: kids in a year and a half and everything just
Speaker 4: became too much for my coping mechanism. So I didn't
Speaker 4: realize I was masking and coping and just keeping my
Speaker 4: head above water. But then when you have so much
Speaker 4: going on, it kind of shows those cracks that oh
Speaker 4: I am not managing well and I'm overwhelmed by the
Speaker 4: thought of sweeping the floor and changing a diaper. And
Speaker 4: I don't think this is typical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because normally when people think of, you know,
Speaker 2: attention deficit order disorder and things like that, they're picturing
Speaker 2: a little boy who can't sit still in class. And
Speaker 2: yet it manifests in lots of other ways. And I
Speaker 2: hear from a lot of women in particular who are
Speaker 2: high functioning that they aren't diagnosed until they're adults.
Speaker 3: I mean, what's going on there? Absolutely so.
Speaker 4: It's historically that's how we saw it, little boy running
Speaker 4: around that was the hyperactive type. But there's also the
Speaker 4: inattentive type, which is a bit more spaceiness, forgetfulness, easily overwhelmed,
Speaker 4: kind of that internal struggle and hyperactivity not so much
Speaker 4: the external. So of course, growing up that's not seen
Speaker 4: as much. It's not as much of a bother in
Speaker 4: the classroom, so people think you're doing just fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it turns out that there are ways to
Speaker 2: treat this or at least know what you're working with
Speaker 2: so that you can.
Speaker 1: Live life in a more calm fashion.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that I read in your
Speaker 2: new book on ADHD regulation, you encourage people who are
Speaker 2: living with ADHD to not talk about like, oh my
Speaker 2: ADHD brain is making me do this, but to talk
Speaker 2: about dysregulation.
Speaker 3: What is dysregulation?
Speaker 4: Absolutely so, being a neurodivergent person living in a neurotypical world,
Speaker 4: you're going to bump up to a lot of struggles,
Speaker 4: a lot of differences. Feels a little bit like a
Speaker 4: round peg in a square holes just what don't always
Speaker 4: fit everywhere, and that will put your nervous system into
Speaker 4: a protective state where I'm on the defense, I'm hyper vigilant,
Speaker 4: making sure I'm doing the right thing, I'm not late,
Speaker 4: I'm not forgetting stuff. And once we get tipped into
Speaker 4: that state, you tend to get stuck in that state.
Speaker 4: So I work with adults who don't know life other
Speaker 4: than being in fight or flight or being dysregulated. So
Speaker 4: that causes a lot of problems. Because being in fighter
Speaker 4: flight is useful when you're imminent life threatening danger, right
Speaker 4: when fight flight freeze and fawn is actually going to
Speaker 4: save your life. If you are writing emails, have a
Speaker 4: long to do list, trying to organize your day, not
Speaker 4: as helpful. So that is what's actually creating so many
Speaker 4: of the problems, not the neurodivergence itself.
Speaker 2: Because people believe they're in danger, at least their nervous
Speaker 2: system believes they're in danger even though they actually aren't.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, So it's perceiving the stress, the overwhelm, all of
Speaker 4: that stuff that we've kind of it's like a flip
Speaker 4: has been switched on my system perceived danger because we're
Speaker 4: very primal being still even though it was Oh, my
Speaker 4: teacher was mad at me. I got in trouble for
Speaker 4: handing that thing in light, but we still perceive that
Speaker 4: as a bear is chasing me. And so because it's
Speaker 4: twenty twenty six and not everybody obviously, but most of
Speaker 4: us people listening to this podcast are probably physically safe,
Speaker 4: it causes a lot of problems because the blood flow
Speaker 4: actually leaves the brain and goes to the limbs when
Speaker 4: I'm trying to write emails, organize my day, prioritize I
Speaker 4: need blood float to the brain. So we really our skills,
Speaker 4: our executive functioning goes down when we're in that state
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 2: So one of the first things you need to do
Speaker 2: then if you recognize this state or recognize this about yourself,
Speaker 2: is to figure out how to calm yourself down. What
Speaker 2: are some strategies that I suppose people even who are
Speaker 2: not living with ADHD could use to calm ourselves down.
Speaker 4: Yes, being in fight or flight it can't affect anybody, right,
Speaker 4: So it's not just for eight each year's it's just
Speaker 4: very common with neurodivergent people. First thing would be rushing.
Speaker 4: This is something that's not talked about as much, but
Speaker 4: regardless of the reason you're doing it, rushing is going
Speaker 4: to signal to your body that you are in danger.
Speaker 4: I'm getting chased by a bear, I'm moving so quickly
Speaker 4: or even thinking so quickly that there must be danger present.
Speaker 4: So we really want to work on slowing down. So
Speaker 4: if you're rushing to a meeting, we just want to walk.
Speaker 4: If you're typing out an email at breakneck speed, slow
Speaker 4: down and just do things at a pace that's a
Speaker 4: little bit more calming. And that's a great first step.
Speaker 4: What else could we do.
Speaker 1: Let's go through a list of things that you would
Speaker 1: recommend some people.
Speaker 4: Well, there's kind of three elements to the ADHD regulation
Speaker 4: method that I use with people. So first is that
Speaker 4: physical piece. We want to tell the body we are safe,
Speaker 4: and that's going to look like a deep breath, relaxing
Speaker 4: your shoulders, slowing down, very simple. The second piece is
Speaker 4: thought and belief regulation, which is much more complex. And
Speaker 4: we have a lot of ways of thinking and a
Speaker 4: lot of belief systems that are rooted that are sorry,
Speaker 4: that stem from a nervous system that feels unsafe. So
Speaker 4: thoughts like I'm behind, I need to catch up, there's
Speaker 4: not enough time in the day, I should have done
Speaker 4: that yesterday. All of those That kind of thinking keeps
Speaker 4: us in a disregulated state, which is going to make
Speaker 4: us ineffect forget full, unorganized. So another thing is really
Speaker 4: being aware of your thinking. Are my thoughts and beliefs
Speaker 4: keeping me anxiety in anxiety? Are they keeping me rushing frazzled?
Speaker 4: And we want to work on that as well.
Speaker 1: So how are some ways I could rewrite those scripts?
Speaker 2: Because I know a lot of people listening to this
Speaker 2: are in fact telling themselves there's not enough.
Speaker 3: Time in the day.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're all busy these days, so what could
Speaker 2: I do to stop telling myself that story?
Speaker 4: A big part of regulation work is aligning with reality,
Speaker 4: which just me to stop fighting with reality. So if
Speaker 4: you're thinking there's not enough time in the day, just
Speaker 4: think of that fight like you are going to lose
Speaker 4: that fight every time there is the time there is?
Speaker 4: Now what can I do with it? So it's just
Speaker 4: observing where am I fighting with reality? I should have
Speaker 4: done that yesterday, okay, but you didn't, So what's the reality?
Speaker 4: The reality is I didn't do that? Now what? And
Speaker 4: I love the now whatk So it gives us just
Speaker 4: that forward momentum. So observing where are my thoughts and beliefs.
Speaker 4: Fighting with reality or fighting with what is? That is
Speaker 4: a great place to work on love that.
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
Speaker 2: I'll be back with more from Jenniffree.
Speaker 3: Well, I am.
Speaker 2: Back talking with Jennifree, who is a therapist, an expert
Speaker 2: on ADHD, and the author of the brand new book
Speaker 2: The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation. So I love one
Speaker 2: of your sayings that if you have to rush, there
Speaker 2: isn't time. I'm curious how you see this manifesting itself
Speaker 2: so often with people. I one thing that comes to mind,
Speaker 2: people always telling me, well, I could empty the dishwasher
Speaker 2: before I walk out the door.
Speaker 3: It's like, well maybe you can't.
Speaker 4: Absolutely that's exactly the right example. So, especially in each years,
Speaker 4: but anybody who struggles with being on time, we will
Speaker 4: blame you know, oh I'm too easily distry, or I
Speaker 4: have time blindness. That's a big thing for eight each year's.
Speaker 4: But often we've because go back to our beliefs there's
Speaker 4: not enough time in the day, so I have to
Speaker 4: squeeze everything into every possible minute I can. So I'll
Speaker 4: just quickly unload the dishwasher. Well, you you should have
Speaker 4: left five minutes ago. Why if we have to quickly
Speaker 4: rush to do it, it's probably a sign that there's no time.
Speaker 4: Let's just put it down, we can do it later,
Speaker 4: and let's leave now. It really will retrain your system
Speaker 4: to just live in the reality that there is the
Speaker 4: time there is. We're valuing being on time more than
Speaker 4: we are rushing to quickly get that thing done, because
Speaker 4: every time we rush to do a task, we are
Speaker 4: also signaling to our body that we're not safe. We've
Speaker 4: got to get into fight or flight. Blood flow is
Speaker 4: gonna leave your brain, it's gonna go to your limbs.
Speaker 4: You're not gonna be as clear thinking, You're not gonna
Speaker 4: be able to prioritize plan. So it really is a
Speaker 4: kind of philosophy to live by because oh, slow and
Speaker 4: steady wins like that is a saying for a reason.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is time blindness? Maybe you can explain that
Speaker 2: to us.
Speaker 4: So I don't know if a lot of ADHD's symptoms
Speaker 4: terminology is just summing up what we see as a
Speaker 4: struggle with ADHD. And in my work, I am proposing
Speaker 4: that a lot of what we've assumed is ADHD is
Speaker 4: actually a dysregulated brain that's also neurodivergent, but it is
Speaker 4: a temporal distortion, meaning a distortion of time. Well, that
Speaker 4: happens when we're in fight or flight as well, So
Speaker 4: it's not exclusive to the neurodivergent brain, but it can
Speaker 4: be you know, losing track of time really easily, thinking
Speaker 4: things will take away longer than they do, thinking things
Speaker 4: will take away less time than they do, and just
Speaker 4: feeling like you can't get a grasp on organizing your
Speaker 4: time well because you can't perceive it accurately.
Speaker 2: Are there things you can do to become a more
Speaker 2: accurate perceiver of time?
Speaker 4: Regulate, which is that slow down, retraining our system that
Speaker 4: it is not in danger, aligning with reality and not
Speaker 4: fighting with reality as much. Of course, there's many more
Speaker 4: tools we can get into, but all of this leads
Speaker 4: to a system that is calm, cool, collected. It's going
Speaker 4: to think more clearly, it's going to have less distortions,
Speaker 4: both cognitive distortions temporal distortions where we don't see things accurately.
Speaker 4: That will all dissipate naturally with regulation.
Speaker 2: So one of the things I always suggest to people
Speaker 2: when they're trying to figure out time is keeping track
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: And I'm curious if you think that that might.
Speaker 2: Be helpful to people I'm talking to who are neurodivergent,
Speaker 2: or do you think they're not going to like that
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 4: It can be tricky because that is what's taught to
Speaker 4: each year is the external tools, the timers, the calendars,
Speaker 4: the planners, the tracking, the systems strategies. But what I
Speaker 4: have found is a system in fight or flight. Give
Speaker 4: that system tools is like an umbrella and a hurricane.
Speaker 4: There is no amount of external support that's going to
Speaker 4: make up for a system in fight or flight. So
Speaker 4: it's always working on that internal based stuff first. Then
Speaker 4: we can go, Okay, where are my missing gaps and
Speaker 4: what tools and strategies can I use. I have a
Speaker 4: calendar that I use religiously that is so supportive of me,
Speaker 4: no matter how regulated I am. I do have a
Speaker 4: wristwatch that I wear it's just the time, so that
Speaker 4: I'm more in tune with what time it is and
Speaker 4: have it accessible, but overly tracking. Being hyper vigilant about
Speaker 4: these things can also tip into dysregulation. Because I also
Speaker 4: have many clients who are chronically early because they are
Speaker 4: so anxious about being late, that they'll waste forty five
Speaker 4: minutes going early and sitting and waiting. Well, that it's
Speaker 4: not really a good solution either, So it's finding that balance.
Speaker 1: So how do you use your calendar to support yourself?
Speaker 3: Then?
Speaker 2: If you think that you might have some time blindness
Speaker 2: on occasion, how does your calendar support you and moving
Speaker 2: beyond that?
Speaker 4: Absolutely so being a regulated person as absolutely supported in
Speaker 4: me being able to use it every single day, and
Speaker 4: I keep my old ones because I do have these
Speaker 4: paper calendar. I use a paper calendar. It's more grounding,
Speaker 4: it's more physical. I find that really helpful for regulation.
Speaker 4: But I'm on my fourth book of it. So this
Speaker 4: is my fourth year every single day using my calendar,
Speaker 4: and it's simply writing down what I'm going to do.
Speaker 4: But because I'm regulated, I'm mindful enough to remember to
Speaker 4: look at it. I do have it open in front
Speaker 4: of me on my desk at all times, and I'm
Speaker 4: not caught up in the perfection guilt and shame that
Speaker 4: we can be when we're disregulated and try to use tools.
Speaker 4: I'm flexible about it. If I don't get something done,
Speaker 4: I'm completely fine crossing it off and moving it along.
Speaker 4: So it's that flexibility I think that allows for a
Speaker 4: calendar to work for somebody.
Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned in your book this sort of analogy
Speaker 2: of viewing big projects as either a wall of bricks
Speaker 2: in front of you or more of.
Speaker 3: A brick path. Can you talk a little bit.
Speaker 2: About that analogy and how that might be helpful for
Speaker 2: people who even are neurotypical and view big projects as
Speaker 2: almost overwhelming.
Speaker 4: Absolutely so, if you have overwhelmed, you're not present, because
Speaker 4: you cannot be overwhelmed if you're present. So if we
Speaker 4: are thinking about a project, oh, I want to start
Speaker 4: that work project, but I'm going to have to email
Speaker 4: those five people. I have to do that five hours
Speaker 4: of research. I'm also going to have to write this paper.
Speaker 4: It's like all the bricks are stacking up in front
Speaker 4: of us, when the reality is I can only do
Speaker 4: one thing at a time. So there's the awareness of ah,
Speaker 4: I'm seeing the brick wall, which is a cognitive distortion. Right,
Speaker 4: So that's a skewed perspective of reality. Because the reality
Speaker 4: is time and space are linear. I can only do
Speaker 4: one thing at a time. So we can practice laying
Speaker 4: that down in our mind's eye. Okay, if this was
Speaker 4: a brick path. What is one brick I could step on?
Speaker 4: Not what is the one right, perfect first brick? What
Speaker 4: is a brick? Kick a step on? That mightbe A'll
Speaker 4: email Joe and ask him that question. I have right,
Speaker 4: it's just getting into some momentum and movement and stepping
Speaker 4: on the bricks one by one instead of trying to
Speaker 4: smash the wall down all at once.
Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick ad break and I'll
Speaker 2: be back with more from Jennifree.
Speaker 3: Well, I am.
Speaker 2: Back talking with Jennifree, therapist and ADHD expert, author of
Speaker 2: the brand new book The Simple Guide to ADHD Regulation. So, Jenna,
Speaker 2: I'd love to move more to what your own schedule
Speaker 2: looks like. People love to hear about people's schedules with
Speaker 2: this show, do you what does a day look like
Speaker 2: for you?
Speaker 4: Well, I am like a broken record. But it's I
Speaker 4: prioritize regulation, so I don't want to do too much,
Speaker 4: I don't want to do too little. It's finding that
Speaker 4: sweet spot. The definition of being regulated is the rate
Speaker 4: or speed at which technically a machine functions best. So
Speaker 4: having nothing on my calendar is you know, it's too open,
Speaker 4: there's too much flexibility. You kind of don't use your
Speaker 4: time well. Also, stuffing too much in there makes it overwhelming,
Speaker 4: puts you in a paralysis, puts you into a state
Speaker 4: where you're not very efficient and effective. So I really
Speaker 4: have gotten good at knowing what my capacity is, knowing
Speaker 4: what's too much for me, and having that flexibility to
Speaker 4: move things around. I don't have any specifics that's rigid
Speaker 4: every day. That flexibility is key for me to stay regulated.
Speaker 4: But I do find when I when I'm not rushing,
Speaker 4: when i have a great relationship with reality and I'm
Speaker 4: not fighting with it, the days just really flow well.
Speaker 4: And my sound for regulation is do do do do.
Speaker 4: That's what I want my feeling to be every day
Speaker 4: is I'm chugging along. I'm getting things done, but I'm
Speaker 4: not in a panic, not frantic. I'm not trying to
Speaker 4: squeeze fifteen things in that are unrealistic. And I'm also
Speaker 4: not stuck and stagnant doing nothing. So that's a bit
Speaker 4: of a less tangible example, but those are the key
Speaker 4: points that have really helped me with functioning well in
Speaker 4: scheduling well.
Speaker 2: But of course, I mean you have children and so
Speaker 2: they probably occasionally mess up that schedule. That sense of
Speaker 2: you know, trying to have the right amount in any
Speaker 2: given day, or you know they tend to throw curveballs
Speaker 2: into a schedule.
Speaker 3: I'm curious how.
Speaker 2: You know you deal with that, because I think that
Speaker 2: the chaos of having young kids is again one of
Speaker 2: those things that leads people to understand that they are
Speaker 2: neurotypical and how they're reacting to it. So I'm curious
Speaker 2: how you are dealing with raising children and needing that regulation.
Speaker 4: Absolutely so, yes, I have six and seven year old boys.
Speaker 4: We are in the thick of it. And I when
Speaker 4: I was more dysregulated, I had so much anger and rigidity.
Speaker 4: If they woke up sick, had to stay home from daycare,
Speaker 4: I just won't forget me, like punching the matress, going ah,
Speaker 4: how am I so frustrated by this change in plans?
Speaker 4: And there's the rigidity that also tips me off when
Speaker 4: someone is neurodivergent and in a fight or flight. Now,
Speaker 4: in a more regulated state, I plan as best I can,
Speaker 4: but again that alignment with reality. The reality is he's homesick. Okay,
Speaker 4: what am I gonna do? Right? How am I gonna
Speaker 4: work with the reality I have? And instead of spending
Speaker 4: so much of my time and energy fighting with he
Speaker 4: should If he hadn't been home, I would have gotten
Speaker 4: this done. I would well, here we are, how do
Speaker 4: I deal with it? So it's so much easier to
Speaker 4: roll with the punches, except reality adjusts things accordingly without it.
Speaker 4: Derael like everything. Well.
Speaker 2: Do you have any routines though that you think make
Speaker 2: you more productive? I mean, even if days are different,
Speaker 2: are there any sort of routines you make sure to
Speaker 2: follow as much as you can?
Speaker 4: I do just get out of bed when my alarm goes.
Speaker 4: That is something I could not do when I was disregulated,
Speaker 4: and I know for eight each year it's very hard
Speaker 4: to wake up in the morning. But when you are
Speaker 4: more present and less stuck in your thinking, I do
Speaker 4: find I just don't even think about it. I just
Speaker 4: stand up and mows you through my day, So that
Speaker 4: really helps I do. Something that I kind of connected
Speaker 4: is if I'm already going out, it's so much easier
Speaker 4: for me to go to the gym. So I'm lucky
Speaker 4: enough to have a flexible schedule where after I drop
Speaker 4: my kids off from school, if I go straight to
Speaker 4: the gym, I'm going to go. If I come home first,
Speaker 4: I ain't going. So it's some little things I've learned
Speaker 4: about myself that I try to honor as much as possible,
Speaker 4: So that has helped. But everyone's gonna be so different
Speaker 4: in what works for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, although I'm sure exercise does help in general,
Speaker 2: right getting physical activity is that a good way to
Speaker 2: regulate oneself?
Speaker 4: Absolutely ideally, And if you are in fight or flight,
Speaker 4: you're in survival mode. You are just keeping your head
Speaker 4: above water. I do not ask anyone who is drowning
Speaker 4: to go work out as the first step. So it
Speaker 4: is a beautiful thing if you can do it, but
Speaker 4: that is not something we have to do right away
Speaker 4: in order to regulate excellent.
Speaker 2: So, Jenna, I always ask my guests, what is something
Speaker 2: you have done recently to take a day from great
Speaker 2: to awesome?
Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing that makes a lot of
Speaker 4: my days awesome is really connecting with my belief that
Speaker 4: the day is meant to be enjoyed, not just to
Speaker 4: check off the to do list. So I really try
Speaker 4: to enjoy the process of the day. Doesn't mean I'm
Speaker 4: playing hooky at work, doesn't mean I'm going to Disneyland
Speaker 4: every day. But even in you know, writing emails. Can
Speaker 4: I sit in somewhere comfortable. Can I do it at
Speaker 4: a pace that's not painful? Can I make this as
Speaker 4: pleasurable as possible, Because especially if you're neurodivergent and or
Speaker 4: just regulated, feeling in a rush, always like you're behind
Speaker 4: and each catch up, we really can live our lives
Speaker 4: in a way where we're just trying to get it
Speaker 4: over with, just trying to get things done so I
Speaker 4: can move on to the next thing soon enough. You've
Speaker 4: looked back in the past month has flown by, and
Speaker 4: you haven't soaked up any of it. So I think
Speaker 4: it's a big shift if you people can even bring
Speaker 4: that up to the same priority level. Okay, yes, I
Speaker 4: want to get things done. I want to work my
Speaker 4: schedule and do it well. I also want to enjoy
Speaker 4: the experience, because for most of us we are forgetting
Speaker 4: that part entirely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 1: Speaking of enjoying things.
Speaker 4: I am looking forward to. I am a big traveler.
Speaker 4: I'm going to Vegas in a few weeks with some friends,
Speaker 4: and I do love a change in schedule. That being said,
Speaker 4: love my routine, love a schedule, and oh my gosh,
Speaker 4: to have a break from it can be such a reset.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that should be a lot of fun. I
Speaker 2: hear you like all sorts of random hobbies too. That
Speaker 2: was one of the things I saw on your bio.
Speaker 4: Yes, very eighth. She think as well. Uh, I've been sewing, tennis, acting, yoga.
Speaker 4: They kind of come and go. But I do love
Speaker 4: a love a good hobby.
Speaker 2: Follow your fancy at the moment, for sure. So Jenna,
Speaker 2: where can people find you?
Speaker 4: You can find me at ADHD with Jennifree dot com,
Speaker 4: slash groups that's all about my work, and on social
Speaker 4: media at ADHD with Jennifree.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, Jenna, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3: Thank you to everyone for listening.
Speaker 1: If you have feedback on this or any.
Speaker 2: Other episode, you can always reach me at Laura at
Speaker 2: Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, this is Laura,
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of
Speaker 2: our time.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas,
Speaker 1: or feedback, you can reach me at Laura at Laura
Speaker 1: vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia.
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