WEBVTT - Dan & Sage | Betrayal Weekly 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:05.120 There was a safety deposit box in Malaysia that her 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:08.680 and I had the key to that was a secret 0:00:08.720 --> 0:00:11.080 and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone that it existed. 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.320 And we'd like go put gold bars in this safety 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:17.640 deposit box that has the big vaulted door. 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:20.520 It was like the slow burn to like, that wasn't 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:21.000 weird to me. 0:00:34.600 --> 0:00:37.960 I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal. I show about 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.559 the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:49.520 change everything. Usually, each episode of Betrayal Weekly follows one 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:54.080 person's story, but today's episode is told by two members 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.840 of the same family, a father and daughter. 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.960 The betrayal wasn't something that happened in a moment. It 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.480 happened over a long time, and I didn't even recognize 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:04.240 what was happening. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.039 That's Dan Kimball. He is a mild mannered Midwestern man 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.360 in his late sixties. He and his daughter Sage, had 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.959 their world shattered by the person they both trusted most. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:17.160 Here's Sage. 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:18.600 In my normal life. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.360 I don't talk about this to my friends or my people, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.520 except for some very close friends, because like, how do 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.480 you even start to tell this story? 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.760 When we first reached out to them about telling their 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:31.440 story on Betrayal. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.959 To be honest. When I got that message from you, 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:35.360 I thought it was a. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.040 Scam, But the title of our show caught his attention. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.640 Betrayal. The word betrayal was the thing that kind of 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:43.440 struck my mind. 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.680 Our team spent months talking with Dan in Sage. They 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:50.160 went back and forth about if they wanted to use 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.960 their real names in this episode. After taking time to think, 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.080 they came back with a clear answer, If. 0:01:57.880 --> 0:01:59.880 We're telling the truth, what do we have to be 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:00.480 afraid of? 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.240 We're going to start this story From Sage's perspective, she 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:10.400 grew up in picturesque Santa Barbara, California, in the nineties. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.120 At the time, it felt more like a hippie town. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.640 You could do outdoorsy stuff. I have very fond memories 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.000 there of like finding bananas, lugs, and being outside. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.520 Her parents are both eccentric citizen of the world types. 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.480 They originally met because of their mutual love of the 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.920 visionary architect and designer Buckminster Fuller. 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:35.400 They met at Buckminster Fuller's birthday party and then they 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:40.120 were friends years before they ever were in a relationship. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.200 Her dad, Dan, spent most of his life doing sustainable design, 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.280 working on cutting edge computer technology. He's the one who 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.360 nurtured her childhood curiosity. 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.679 My dad would be curious about what I was interested in, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.399 and then he'd get excited about it. I was really 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:01.640 obsessed with like space for a little bit, and he 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.520 built a planetarium with me, and like, let me go 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.120 on the street and like sell tickets for people to 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:07.800 like look. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.040 Into my planetarium show. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.560 Dan was a constant and gentle presence for Sage and 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:15.400 her mom Fara. 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.000 She was affectionate. She would hug me, she would kiss me, 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:23.320 she would play with me, like outdoorsy things. She loved 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:24.040 doing with me. 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.760 As a kid, Sage always wanted to be close to 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:28.680 her mom. 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.960 I felt like she was the thing that made me safe. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:35.200 I couldn't exist without her, like I believed that I 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.880 wouldn't exist without her. 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.640 Fara was a Sufi Muslim. She came to the religion 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.240 as a teenager when her dad was working as a 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:49.440 diplomat in Iran. That's where Fara fell in love with Islam. 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.280 It became a part of her identity and she raised 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:54.600 her daughter's age in the faith. 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.480 We all called ourselves Sufi's, which is a sect of 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.200 Islam have these like Sufi gatherings at our house with 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.600 like dancing. There would be like forty people coming over 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.960 and like I'd just get to like hang out. Those 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.280 Sufi parties were a lot of fun for Sage. 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.159 Growing up as a white Muslim girl in Santa Barbara 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.000 was a unique experience. 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.039 Friends would ask me, like, are you embarrassed to walk 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:23.800 around with your mom because she wore this. It's a 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.400 hit job, but it's also like a cape thing. 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.119 People would ask me if my mom was a nun. 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.800 Her mom started wearing long white robes that looked like 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:36.200 a nun's habit. Dan sewed them for her by hand. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.360 Sage was it embarrassed about her mom. She wanted to 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.960 be like her because her mom really lived out her values. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:45.960 She was a peace activist. 0:04:46.400 --> 0:04:49.800 We'd go to a lot of anti war or peace 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:51.479 rallies when I was growing up. 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:54.800 I remember feeling. 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.880 Really cool that we were out there doing something about 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:58.360 the world. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.240 Fara organized a movement to send medicine and supplies to 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:09.680 civilians in Iraq. Sage remembers watching her mom's work with pride. 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:10.960 That was about five or so. 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.680 My mom was going on a humanitarian aid trip where 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.359 a group of people were going to be breaking the 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:23.039 sanctions to deliver medicine and things to the people in Iraq. 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:28.800 That was a super cool thing that my mom did. Like, 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:30.719 that's so brave and so cool. 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.960 Dan was deeply involved in this movement too. It was 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:39.240 a family effort. The Kimbals were instrumental in raising millions 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.120 of dollars from medicine to be sent to children in Iraq. 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.279 As much as Sage loved her mom and wanted to 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:49.840 be just like her, Fara could be stern. 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.040 I remember from a very young age knowing that what 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.960 mom says goes like if you did something wrong, you 0:05:56.040 --> 0:06:00.479 knew immediately to like get it together, and it almost 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:01.760 like your eyes changed. 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:06.080 Whenever Sage did something wrong, Fara taught her how to 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.120 make amends. 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.000 My tactic from an early age was writing her a 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:12.200 note or a letter. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.760 I'm going to see if I can find it. Actually, oh, 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:18.760 here it is. I found it. There's a part here 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.400 that says thank you for teaching me what Islam is. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.359 I don't know where I would be today if not 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.360 for you, even though it may not seem like it now, 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.160 because I didn't live up to my duties or help 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.800 you out. I truly love you. You are the most 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:34.200 important person in the world to me. 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.200 Fara was often upset with Sage's dad Dan. Sage didn't 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.480 know why, but she wanted to help. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:48.359 Once I was like eight nine ten, I learned that 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:51.720 I should try and fix it. So I would go 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:53.760 and talk to him, and then I would go and 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.719 relay information, and I would go tell him, here's what 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:57.320 you should do. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:06:59.839 I know how to fix these problems. 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.360 Sage was confused by her parents' relationship. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.719 I never saw them be affectionate with each other. I 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:09.480 don't think I ever saw them kiss or like hug. 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.880 They said they really loved each other. But i'd see 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.720 like my friend's parents, and they'd be like arm around 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:17.720 each other or like holding hands. 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.800 Bara put pressure on Dan to bring in more money 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.640 for the family. That became a source of a lot 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:24.440 of their fights. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.000 At a certain point, my mom started saying that, well, 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.120 it's the man's job to provide, like I shouldn't have 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.400 to provide anything, because it was his job to make 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:36.920 sure that there was food on the table. 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:43.239 Their family was growing. When Sage was eight years old, 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.040 her parents had two more kids, twin boys. 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.960 I was pumped because I was like, great, even better 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.800 now I get two friends, not just one. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:57.480 Money was a stressor. Dan had one unsuccessful tech startup 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.000 of his own, but he always landed on his feet. 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:03.400 At the time, he worked for an early micro computing 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:07.440 company doing user interface design. Plus, they were in the 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.239 middle of building their dream home in Santa Barbara. Bara 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:14.080 and Dan had been designing it together. It would be 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.560 a sustainable home that incorporated Islamic architecture. 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.760 There was a house that we were trying to build 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:22.400 in Santa Barbara that got cut because it had a dome, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.520 and people said that the dome was We're trying to 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:27.480 build a mosque. 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.800 It was two thousand and five, a time when Islamophobia 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.880 was rampant in the US. Siege encountered it at school. 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.439 I do remember that being like a Muslims or terrorists 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.200 like that being said, and me fighting with people about that. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.080 Fara and Dan learned that it was one of their 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.040 neighbors who made Islamophobic comments about the design of their house. 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:52.720 It made them want to live in a place where 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:54.400 they weren't outsiders. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.680 I was in ninth grade at the time, and I 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.800 remember coming home and they were like boxes packed. 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.120 Fara wanted to move the family to a Muslim majority country. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.280 Dan quit his job and planned to work remotely on 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.520 tech startups in Asia. A few months later, they went 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.960 to visit a family friend in Bali, Indonesia. 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.040 And then we didn't leave. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:24.760 Bali's actually majority Hindu, but Fara felt comfortable there and 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:26.360 they found the perfect property. 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.640 It was a big piece of land and there's a 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:34.320 river down below, and you look across like rice fields, 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.320 and you could see on a clear day like Mount Agun, 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.920 which is the big volcano in Bali, in the distance. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.800 Like it was incredible, beautiful, beautiful, but at the time 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:46.480 it was just a piece of land. There was nothing 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:46.800 on it. 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.520 The family packed up their whole lives, put most of 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.840 it in storage, and relocated to Bali. They got to 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.600 work building an estate complete with an organic garden and 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.680 a set of traditional Javanese villas. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.840 They're called Joe glows, and they're these really cool Indonesian 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.360 structures that are like no nails. 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.080 The family came together with neighbors and friends to help 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.800 with the construction. They also started a main house where 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.800 the family would live. It was a huge undertaking, and 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:22.400 though she was fourteen sage knew her parents were taking 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:23.240 a big risk. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.920 Buying that property was like everything we had, so like 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:28.960 you're putting all your eggs in that basket. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.240 To afford this piece of land and the construction costs, 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.080 Dan and Fara had used all of their resources. They 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.440 sold their property in Santa Barbara and put their savings, 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.800 including all the money Dan had inherited from his parents, 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:49.200 into the Bali property. Once it was completed, it would 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.360 be an oasis, a tropical paradise for their family, one 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.000 they could monetize. Fara had the idea to start a 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:01.079 raw foods business at the house in Bali, hosts tourists 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.000 and chefs who were leaders in the raw food movement. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.600 It's a diet of mostly fruits, nuts, and vegetables. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.360 Health and wellness was another big thing that she was into. 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.520 She got really into like raw food and actually made 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.640 the cookbook with like delicious raw food recipes. But like 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.880 there were always extremes in that. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.080 That year, Fara took stage on a solo trip to 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.120 visit a community run by women. 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:33.200 There's an Indonesian tribe that's still a matriarchal society, which 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.920 it was actually really sick, like it was a very cool, beautiful, 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:38.640 peaceful society. 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:43.680 Stage was about fifteen after that trip to visit the 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:48.680 matriarchal society, Fara brought her daughter along more often, including 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.800 for business matters and important errands. 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:54.960 I've started going to banks with her to do banking things. 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.760 Around that same time, Fara began bringing the kids on 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.080 trips with her where she was buying gold bars. 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:04.400 A gold bar. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:06.640 I remember at the time it being like ten thousand 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.240 dollars and us going and getting like six gold bars 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:12.840 or something like that. This was also the time she 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.960 was getting into Alex Jones and like money and corruption. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.319 Alex Jones is an American media host. He's built a 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:27.079 large following through commentary on politics, culture, and government institutions. 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.200 He's best known for promoting conspiracy theories and fear mongering 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:32.680 about economic collapse. 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.120 I think that was where the influence to get the 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.560 gold came from, because it was like, this is where 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:39.640 how you keep your money safe. 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.160 Some of those trips are seered into stages memory, like 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:44.520 when they went to Singapore. 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.880 We would go to Singapore to buy gold because it 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.400 was a good place to buy gold. And then she 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.320 would have me and my brothers put like you have 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.160 those like you know, those like travel bags that go 0:12:58.240 --> 0:12:59.360 like under your clothes. 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.200 She made it seem like it was a normal thing. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.960 She started talking to Stage more and more about finances, 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:10.920 and Fara told her these trips, the gold, the banking, 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:12.840 it was their secret. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:14.000 There was a. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.240 Safety deposit box in Malaysia that her and I had 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.200 the key to. That was a secret and I wasn't 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.679 allowed to tell anyone that it existed. And like there's 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.000 like armed guards outside of this like safety deposit area, 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.520 and we'd like go put gold bars in this safety 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.480 deposit box that has the big vaulted door and like 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:34.520 a guard at the door. 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:36.480 It was wild, but. 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:39.240 Like again it was like the slow burn too, Like 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:40.200 that wasn't weird to me. 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.920 Sage knew she wasn't allowed to question her mom. 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:49.320 I was so intertwined with what she wanted. I don't 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.559 think I was even always told what I was doing. 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.240 I just did whatever she asked me to do. 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.160 Stage trusted in her mom connection to God. 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:07.560 That was so central to how she parented me was 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:13.320 here's God, and then we're all serving God. The understanding 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.079 was that she's like a step below God. God is 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.800 speaking to her it was like, if you're going against her, 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:22.640 you're going against God. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.880 Eventually, Bara let her daughter in on her plan. She 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.920 wanted to create a matriarchal financial structure within their own family. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.560 She's a feminist and she wants a matriarchal society and 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.880 the women should be in charge of the finances. That 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.440 was the first time I heard that, like, we are 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.680 going to do this matriarchal. 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:47.640 Thing as part of this structure. Fara wanted Stage to 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.120 be the signatory on their family trust instead of her 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.840 dad or one of her brothers. 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.520 When I became the signatory on that trust document, it 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.600 was because we were treating this like the women have 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.800 power over the finances, like it's going to be so progressive. 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.680 Sage was on board. She signed the documents her my 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:13.000 master too. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.120 The understanding was like, if you're a feminist or if 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.080 you care about women, you will also support this. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.240 Fara explained to Sage that this had to be done 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.320 because she said their dad wasn't good with money. Bara 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.600 told the kids that Dan's job in tech startups wasn't 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:32.200 good enough. 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.120 He'd go get investment in a company that he was 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:41.720 working on, and then she would say that investment isn't income. 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.400 That's stealing money from people for these businesses. And so 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.920 she would say to us that, like, your dad is 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.720 just swindling these people out of their money because he 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.280 won't get a job. And if he cared about you, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:56.400 he would get a job. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.720 But it wasn't just Dan's job that was the problem. 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.480 She started telling the kids their dad didn't love them anymore. 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.320 She would say to us that, like, your dad doesn't care. 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:10.560 He doesn't care about you. He's a dead bee. He 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.640 doesn't care about his kids. I know you love him, 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.360 but if he cared about you, he would be doing 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:17.480 something to protect you. 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:21.160 Dan was often traveling for work away from the house, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.320 but whenever he was home. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:27.240 I remember later on in my teenage years, my dad 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:32.440 was sleeping in literally this like outdoor shack. But it 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:35.360 was because I begged her not to kick him out. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.600 Fully, Fara explained to the kids that she was scared 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:40.960 of Dan. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.880 She would ask me to be a witness if he 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.480 was talking to her because she wanted a witness when 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.080 he was abusive to her, like if I cared about her, 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.360 I'd be there to protect her. In that. 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.080 By the time Stage left for college, she believed she 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.120 had to protect the family from her dad, and a 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.880 big part of that meant keeping the family money out 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:06.600 of his hands. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.719 The understanding was like, in order for us to have anything, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.800 we have to make sure he doesn't have access to 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.040 these things because he's just going to squander it. And 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.880 my dad didn't know any of this, All. 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.480 Of this, from the trips to the bank to the 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.120 stories she told the kids, I. 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:49.160 Was completely oblivious, and I think it was orchestrated that way. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.200 Once the Kimbals moved to Bali, Fara began acting differently. 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.560 She isolated her oldest daughter, Sage, and told her stories 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.760 about how her father didn't love her. It got in 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.040 Sage's head. Her mom started taking her to the bank 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.159 and asking her to sign documents. Now we're going to 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.639 hear Dan's perspective, starting from when they moved to Bali. 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:19.000 It's something that was difficult for him to revisit. Dan 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.639 Metfara when they were teenagers. They were friends for fifteen 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.760 years before they became a couple. They shared the same 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.960 core value wanting to make the world a better place, and. 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:34.160 I appreciated that about her. Definitely very much a global thinker, 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:37.440 and she's a very charismatic person, I mean, a really 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.159 beautiful soul in many ways. 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.800 By the time they got to Bali, they'd been married 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.920 for almost twenty years. Dan didn't share the same religious 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.399 zeal as Fara did, but he respected her values. So 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.200 when she said she wanted to move to Indonesia. 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.280 The decision had already been made for me. Really, she 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.359 wanted to be in a Muslim culture, and you know, 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:02.359 I'm want to really complain. I was always wanting to 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.320 just go along with what we were trying to do. 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.600 Dan had been the breadwinner for most of their marriage. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.919 Working in tech startups meant that sometimes he had a 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.840 high paying job and sometimes he was in between gigs, 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.760 but through it all he made sure the family was 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:22.200 okay financially. In fact, Dan had been the one managing 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:23.960 the couple's money since the beginning. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.320 I took over responsibility for all the finances. I just 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.840 made the books every month and just did it and 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.919 paid the bills. I kind of knew the QuickBooks and 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.760 putting it all together and working with the text people 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.520 and just getting it all organized. I don't think that 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.920 she had ever really had a desire to handle money stuff. 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.560 Over the course of their marriage, Dan watched his wife 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:53.680 become more and more religious. She'd chosen her own name, Bara, 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.160 Religion became her whole life. By the time they got 0:19:58.160 --> 0:19:58.639 to Bali. 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.840 There was kind of a delusional nature to her describing herself. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.760 She was so close to God that she could understand 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.400 things that were beyond my understanding. 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.240 But Dan saw the value in living abroad. Once he 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.280 toured the property in Bali, he was sold afar his dream. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.160 To make that happen financially. 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.920 We moved all of our assets to Indonesia through we 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:31.439 started a company in Indonesia, so money would go to 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.840 this company. We have to have one Indonesian director, so 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.800 a good Indonesian friend was the director. My wife and 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.520 I were the other directors, and we owned a fifty 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.920 to fifty that Indonesian director didn't own any and most 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.760 of the assets then to buy the property were bought 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.040 through this company. We paid a huge down payment to 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:52.200 buy the property. 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:56.120 It was a big financial risk, and it brought Dan 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.679 and Bara closer. They both believed in what they were building. 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.240 Takeet other in Bali, even if it meant pulling all 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:04.880 of their available resources. 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.160 Oftentimes people think, oh, you must have been so wealthy 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.199 to do all that stuff. No, we weren't. We just 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.680 were brave enough to go and do it right. I mean, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.080 it was risky in the sense that we spent a 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.879 lot of money to buy that property, and but we 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.480 just we didn't mind living with that kind of risk. 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.159 At the beginning of their move, the family had to 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:31.880 stay in a hotel for a couple weeks. There, Dan 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.120 noticed Fara was taken by the new lifestyle they could 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:36.040 afford abroad. 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.160 We lived for quite a long time in this fancy hotel, 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.000 and I didn't know why we were staying there because 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:43.720 it was costing us too much money, and I was 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:46.560 kind of complaining about it. But she was very pushy 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:49.000 around money, like, you know, no, we're gonna do this. 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:50.439 We're going to spend the money and it takes to 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:53.320 do this. Of course, it's both it's all our money. 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:58.199 That hotel stay was temporary. Dan was busy orchestrating and 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.080 designing the construction project. He was there for nearly every 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:03.680 step of the process. 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.720 And we built it up into this beautiful little mini 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.280 resort which was all based on raw food, which is 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:15.000 a wonderful kind of niche for us, because anyone anywhere 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:16.960 in the world it was interested in raw food would 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:18.399 come to our place. It was the only place in 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:20.359 Bali that you could get raw food at the time, 0:22:21.160 --> 0:22:23.800 and so we trained people in how to make raw food. 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:25.880 In fact, some of the people that went to these 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.520 New York raw food restaurants were trained by us. 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.320 Fara loved living in Bali. They both did. 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:34.399 I just fell in love with Bali. 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.320 Once most of the construction was done, Dan started traveling 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:45.840 around Asia consulting for a series of tech startups. Stage 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:49.280 was finishing high school. The twin boys were in elementary school, 0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:53.520 and Fara seemed to be pulling away from Dan every 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.560 time he came home from a business trip. Fara became 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.479 increasingly distant. After a year or two, I got to 0:23:00.520 --> 0:23:02.080 the point that we. 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.800 Didn't have a relationship anymore. I mean we never slept together, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.560 we never I was in separate quarters from her. But 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:11.040 I just went along with it. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.440 Dan was under pressure to keep bringing in a steady income, 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:18.240 and he was scrambling to make that happen. He figured 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.240 it was normal for he and his wife to go 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.320 through stressful years where they drifted apart. The only thing 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.760 that bothered him was when Fara started taking the kids 0:23:27.800 --> 0:23:31.760 on trips and telling Dan she didn't want him there. 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.840 There was a lot of exclusion, like, okay, sage and 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:37.880 I are going to go to Indonesia though and buy 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:40.960 some more teak to try to find the teak for 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.240 the house, and you're going to stay here, right. It's 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:46.240 just like telling me what I had to do and 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:47.920 how I'm going to do it. 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.160 This had been their dynamic for almost their whole marriage. 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:55.800 Fara called the shots and Dan was happy to go 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:59.840 along with her choices. But after they moved abroad, her 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:01.760 the choices began to exclude Dan. 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.480 There are many vacations that they went on that I 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.760 didn't go on because I was pushed out of it. 0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:11.400 One of those trips, my wife. 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.600 Wanted to visit this community in Malaysia that is a 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.960 Muslim society where the women are in control of everything, 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:20.960 so it was of interest to her. 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.320 A few months after that trip, Baras started taking an 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:28.320 interest in managing their finances herself. She told Dan she 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.240 wanted her own private bank account, and he didn't see 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.720 any issue with that. After about five years at the 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.159 raw Food resort in Indonesia, they were approached by a 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:41.639 land developer. He wanted to buy their land at a 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.159 premium stage. Was about to go off to college and 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:48.040 the twins were ten. The family was ready for a 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:50.280 new chapter, so they made the sale. 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:55.280 We sold the property in Indonesia for three million dollars. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.199 Dan and Bara put that money into a new family 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:02.680 trust that they established in Malaysia. That's where they would 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:07.359 be moving next. They'd had something similar in Indonesia, but 0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.359 not with nearly this amount of money in it. So 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.920 the formation of this trust in Malaysia was a big deal. 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:18.040 This notion of a trust was very important to us. 0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:22.320 People have understood what it was, but the word trust 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:25.520 I don't think had the same meaning to her that 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:26.240 it had to me. 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:32.280 For Dan, the family trust was about ensuring safety for 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.040 their kids' futures. It was for his and far As 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:39.080 future too. Like always, ownership of the trust would be 0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:40.200 divided evenly. 0:25:40.840 --> 0:25:44.400 The company we created in Indonesia was fifty to fifty held. 0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:48.199 The company that was created in Malaysia was held by 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.960 the trust, which we were co creators of. We were 0:25:52.119 --> 0:25:54.920 named in the trust as co granters, and we moved 0:25:54.960 --> 0:25:56.840 all the assets to Malaysia. 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.480 When they sold their property in Bali. They'd actually sold 0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:04.400 the land, not the houses they'd built. Those were theirs 0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:07.080 if they could find a way to move them. The 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.280 big house had been a special project of Dan's. 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:13.720 So then we decided, well, hey, let's bring the house 0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:17.639 from Indonesia to Malaysia because we didn't want to start 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:18.440 from scratch. 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.160 Their plan was to deconstruct the house in Bali piece 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:25.160 by piece so they could rebuild it somewhere else. 0:26:26.119 --> 0:26:29.560 We asked everybody from the village to come and help 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:33.400 us knock down these houses, and within three days they 0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.960 tore it down and packed it all up. So a 0:26:37.040 --> 0:26:41.440 few months later we had two giant shipping containers come 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:43.399 to us in Malaysia with our house. 0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:46.399 They found a piece of land in Malaysia where they 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:50.359 could reconstruct their dream home, and now they could afford 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.400 to take their time. They hired an architect who saw 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:57.200 their vision. The project became Dan and far As focus. 0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:01.520 We have lovely time design and building and working with 0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:04.720 the architects, and like we're working on something other than us. 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:06.960 It wasn't about us, It was about this thing we 0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:07.840 were doing together. 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:12.679 When the house was completed, it was breathtaking picture a 0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:16.720 jungle oasis with floor to ceiling windows and towering hand 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:21.280 carved doors, tropical plants, and natural light flooding every room. 0:27:21.880 --> 0:27:24.639 And because it was the same structure they originally built 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:29.679 in Bali, it wasn't just beautiful, it was meaningful. The 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.119 house was a symbol of what their family could accomplish together. 0:27:34.240 --> 0:27:38.480 We rebuilt our property that this gorgeous place, into this 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:39.679 extraordinary house. 0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:43.960 Once they got settled in Malaysia, Dan got back to work. 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:47.760 During this time, I opened a kind of a consulting 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:53.520 company and I had some contracts with technology development work. 0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:56.000 One of his main contracts was in a city a 0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:59.199 few hours away. But this time when he would come 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:02.560 home from work to ups, he experienced a new level 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:05.960 of isolation. It was as if the whole family was 0:28:06.000 --> 0:28:09.359 giving him the silent treatment. When he asked Farah what 0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:11.879 was going on, she said she didn't know what he 0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:15.760 was talking about. So Dan responded by throwing himself into 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:18.840 work and building up his own social network. 0:28:19.160 --> 0:28:21.480 With lots of my friends and people that I built 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:25.600 relationships with, like this architect and our next stortabor. I 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:27.919 became good friends with them, but she never wanted to 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:28.800 even go over there. 0:28:29.840 --> 0:28:32.440 Dan was making enough for the family to live comfortably, 0:28:32.840 --> 0:28:36.959 and he liked his work. Around this time, Dan was 0:28:37.000 --> 0:28:40.080 offered a salary job. It paid a lot, but it 0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.640 was a role he didn't want. When he brought it 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:45.800 up to Fara, she showed a renewed interest in Dan. 0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:49.600 My wife was pushing to try to get me to 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:52.480 take this job. When I told her I'd turned it down, 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:55.800 it was like she blew up. She was upset by this. 0:28:55.800 --> 0:28:58.600 This is when Dan first heard about her desire for 0:28:58.680 --> 0:29:02.360 the women in the family to control the finances. You 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:06.400 heard Stage talk about that earlier in the episode. Stage 0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:08.960 had been in on this for years, but she was 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:12.000 told not to talk about it with her dad, so 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:15.440 Dan was just learning about it in Malaysia. 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:19.720 Of course, it's both it's all our money, but she's 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:22.240 the one who's kind of now starting to control it. 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:25.920 If it was important to Fara to control the finances, 0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:29.520 he was okay with that. It gave him peace of mind, 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:31.920 knowing that the trust was still held fifty to fifty 0:29:32.400 --> 0:29:36.360 with a friend of theirs serving as director. But after 0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:40.080 Fara took over management of the family's daily spending, the 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:42.480 marriage deteriorated even further. 0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:46.600 And it was like very tumultuous time. She argued with 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:49.680 me and demanded that I move into the mataged quarters. 0:29:50.440 --> 0:29:52.760 Dan didn't even know what he'd done to make his 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:58.200 wife so upset, but now he was always walking on eggshells, and. 0:29:58.120 --> 0:30:01.640 I thought we were still in love. This is where 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:05.959 I realized that love wasn't the same thing. Love was 0:30:06.000 --> 0:30:07.360 transactional for her. 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:12.960 Now that the house was nearly completed, Dan felt like 0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:14.480 he wasn't useful anymore. 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:17.120 There was no need for me anymore. I felt like 0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:19.480 I was Yeah, it was like good discard. 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:23.640 Around that time, Dan was on a business trip when 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:24.400 he was robbed. 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:27.680 Guys on a motorcycle went and grabbed my bag and 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:30.880 drove off with my computer and my passport and everything else. 0:30:31.640 --> 0:30:34.040 He had to call Fara and beg for her help. 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:38.520 This issue of me needing to get enough money to 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:42.440 buy a computer that had been stolen, and what kind 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:46.040 of position had I got myself into to be so 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:50.560 subservient to funds that were ours, to thinking that I 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:52.280 had to beg for it. 0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:56.120 For Dan, this was an emotional breaking point. 0:30:57.200 --> 0:31:00.400 I realized, Hey, there's something seriously wrong here. There was 0:31:00.440 --> 0:31:01.680 something that cracked. 0:31:02.280 --> 0:31:05.120 Dan managed to get himself back home. But when he 0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:06.480 arrived at the house. 0:31:08.240 --> 0:31:10.640 I go there, try my key. It doesn't work, and 0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.920 I realized, oh, she's changed the key. The doors had 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.760 been locked, and I wasn't welcome anymore. 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:21.960 With no other place to stay and no access to 0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:26.480 their money, Dan started sleeping in a friend's car. 0:31:27.400 --> 0:31:32.480 During that time, I basically ran out of funds we 0:31:32.520 --> 0:31:37.680 had playing joint funds, and she just wouldn't send any money. 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:44.440 And I felt suppressed from even asking. You know, I 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:48.280 was literally living out of a friend's car. I don't 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:52.200 think she thinks of it that way, but I was homeless. 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:53.840 It pushed me into homelessness. 0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:57.800 Dan still believed that if he could just sit down 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:00.480 and talk with his wife, they could figure out a 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:04.920 path forward. It would probably mean divorce and separating their assets. 0:32:05.320 --> 0:32:07.360 He just wanted to look her in the eye and 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:08.760 make the decision together. 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:13.440 A few days later, I remember going to the house 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:19.000 once trying to see her and just talk with her 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:21.840 about this in just a very calm boy it just like, 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:22.600 what's going on? 0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:24.160 What do we do about this? 0:32:25.360 --> 0:32:27.880 He knew Fara went on a bike ride every morning, 0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:30.280 so he waited for her by the front gate of 0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:30.840 their house. 0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:34.520 She was riding a bicycle toward me and I was 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:39.400 there ready to greet her. She looked straight ahead and 0:32:39.560 --> 0:32:43.960 acted as if I was a tree, just drove past 0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:46.240 me without even glancing my direction. 0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:54.400 That moment when Fara passed him on the bicycle was 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.320 one of the last times Dan would ever see his wife, 0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:01.440 because the next time he met with the accountants, you 0:33:01.520 --> 0:33:04.040 learned something that would alter the rest of his life. 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:07.880 I went there and we were going over the documents 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:11.080 and they said, well, the shares were transferred into your 0:33:11.200 --> 0:33:14.240 wife's name. I said, what the shares were? 0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:14.520 Chance? 0:33:15.120 --> 0:33:17.560 Those are the trust shairs that were transferred into my 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:19.760 wife's name. Is he I have done the state and 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:21.680 there's something And they were just daing as matter of 0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:24.680 factly right. They showed me the documentation that said that 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.480 this is the transfer and I said, well, what about 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:29.160 the directorship and he says, yeah, well she was made 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:33.880 director too, and I was just I was just dumbfounded. 0:33:33.880 --> 0:33:37.440 At that meeting, Dan had been completely locked out of 0:33:37.480 --> 0:33:38.520 their family trust. 0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:45.080 She only needed the approval of the trustee, so somehow 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:47.160 she talked to the trustee. 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:50.600 The trustee was a friend of theirs who lived locally. 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:54.440 I think She started to work on him and said, Okay, 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:56.760 I'm gonna I'm transferring all this stuff over into into 0:33:56.760 --> 0:33:58.160 my name. I'm going to be the director now. And 0:33:58.320 --> 0:34:01.960 he wish went and did it. He just signed the papers, thinking, 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:04.440 I mean that's what his claim was. Oh, it was 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:06.240 you know, she's your wife, you know, as she's all 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:07.640 been approved by her and you. 0:34:08.440 --> 0:34:11.399 Dan had not approved for his half of the trust 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.759 shares to be transferred into his wife's name that gave 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:18.640 her sole access to their entire life savings, but he 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:22.719 hadn't signed any documents. He had no knowledge of this transfer. 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:27.000 Dan immediately called their friend who'd been the trustee. 0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:31.239 I just remember being outraged that he would do this 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:34.200 and how did this happen. We can't move on like this. 0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:37.160 Change it back. It has to be corrected. And I 0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:38.759 was absolutely adamant about it. 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:41.640 But this isn't the kind of thing you can just 0:34:41.880 --> 0:34:45.760 request to change back. There was a lot of red tape. 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:48.960 I worked for months, literally most of the rest of 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:52.719 twenty seventeen. I talked to multiple attorneys about how do 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:55.239 we do this because it's already been signed over. I 0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:57.680 talked to the trust attorney. He finally said to me. Listen, 0:34:57.719 --> 0:35:00.680 You're gonna have to get an attorney to I can't 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:02.920 do anything because she's not going to agree to it, 0:35:02.960 --> 0:35:04.799 and the trust he can't do it on his own. 0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:06.760 And but you know, that's all kinds of crap. 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.880 Dan's life was on pause as he tried to educate 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:14.480 himself about international trust laws and marriage laws. 0:35:15.239 --> 0:35:19.920 My entire life savings are tied up in this, and 0:35:20.120 --> 0:35:22.600 I'm literally penniless. 0:35:23.400 --> 0:35:26.160 If he wanted recourse, he would have to go through 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:27.640 the Malaysian court system. 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:29.719 I'm going to have to file suit, and I'm going 0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:32.600 to have to file suit against my wife and the 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:36.040 company that's in the trust. Even my daughter has to 0:35:36.040 --> 0:35:38.319 be on the suit because she was the signatory to 0:35:38.360 --> 0:35:43.080 the trust. It was just mind bendingly painful. 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:07.400 For the final act of this story, we're going to 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:11.520 hear from both Dan and Sage, because what happened next 0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:16.399 didn't just unfold around them. It happened between them. 0:36:17.239 --> 0:36:19.919 Can I add on to that, Dad, Yeah, Yeah. 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:22.879 We wanted to bring them together to tell the end 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:25.080 of the story from their joint perspective. 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:29.080 Sage, your experience was very different than my own because 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:32.840 it comes from me being a husband rather than being 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:37.600 a daughter totally different, but yet the same thing happens. 0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:42.239 Sage had been hearing horrible stories about her dad. They'd 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:45.359 been kept away from each other for so long that 0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:47.400 they weren't living in the same reality. 0:36:48.280 --> 0:36:51.600 I was alienated from my dad for years because she 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.200 told me he wasn't trustworthy. 0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:56.960 When Dan was locked out of the house, Sage was 0:36:56.960 --> 0:37:00.279 in college. She was barely speaking to her father at 0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:04.160 the time. She only heard her mother's version of the story. 0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:06.160 When she changed the locks. 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:08.239 She then was posing it at the time as like 0:37:08.280 --> 0:37:12.680 he's trying to break in and being like, I'm terrified, 0:37:13.239 --> 0:37:15.520 And I remember being angry at my dad, like leave 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:21.040 her alone because she's making it seem like he's trying 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:23.840 to like hurt her or something, and I never thought 0:37:23.880 --> 0:37:25.279 he was capable of hurting her. 0:37:27.160 --> 0:37:30.040 After the trust was transferred out of his name, Dan 0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:32.759 reached out to Sage to tell her what was going on. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:36.759 That's when he began putting the pieces together about why 0:37:36.800 --> 0:37:38.400 Sage was so distant. 0:37:38.600 --> 0:37:42.040 I didn't realize that I had been spoken ill love 0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:45.880 for many years, and so that the impressions that I 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:50.000 got from my early discussions with Sage were that, Wow, 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:51.239 you don't know me. 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:54.760 Sage was twenty three and living in New York City 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:56.040 when her dad called her. 0:37:56.960 --> 0:38:01.640 He said, Hey, I want you to know I am 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:04.879 filing a lawsuit against your mom, but because you were 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:08.200 on that document, I also have to sue you. 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:11.520 But it's like I'm going to cover your lawyer fees. 0:38:12.040 --> 0:38:14.000 We're going to just get your statement and then. 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:17.319 You'll be recused. He was talking to me about how 0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:19.360 this was all going to work before doing it. 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:22.480 But when Sage talked to her mom, she heard a 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:23.840 completely different story. 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:27.279 It escalated to, like, why would you want to have 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.359 a relationship with my abuser? Like you're an abuser too 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.440 if you want to have a relationship with my abuser, 0:38:32.440 --> 0:38:33.800 even if that person is your father. 0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:38.680 Her mom's story was confusing to her. Sage had mediated 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:42.920 her parents' fights before, but she had never seen anything physical. 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:47.960 In fact, Sage's personal experience of her dad was that 0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:50.040 he was a quiet and gentle guy. 0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:52.440 From the time I was born. 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:58.240 He was gentle, and he listens in all of the fights. 0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:02.640 The times when my mom would be crazy, he wouldn't 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:06.080 even raise his voice. I think I've heard him yell 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:10.520 twice in my life. I've never seen hurt an animal. 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:11.920 I've never seen him hurt anything. 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:15.440 When he first came to her in crisis, Sage was 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:17.720 deeply conflicted about who to believe. 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:19.440 I was like, I don't believe you. 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:22.680 Show me the proof, and seeing the proof of like, 0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:26.560 here's this money that was given to me, here's this, 0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:29.440 here's what we bought. A huge part of that was 0:39:29.480 --> 0:39:32.360 his inheritance that even got us the house in Bali, 0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:35.480 and I was starting to believe in him. 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.280 But Sage still didn't want to be in the middle 0:39:38.320 --> 0:39:42.320 of this. She tried to completely remove herself from the situation. 0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:45.360 I got like a notarized letter that was just like 0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:48.320 this should be solved between my parents. 0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:49.840 I should have never been on this document. 0:39:50.600 --> 0:39:55.239 This notarized letter didn't change anything. She was legally implicated 0:39:55.239 --> 0:39:55.560 in this. 0:39:56.280 --> 0:39:58.120 My dad was like, I don't want you to be 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.759 in the middle of it either, And you are in 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:03.759 the middle of it. And I would start listening to 0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:09.440 him more. I was trained that he was so awful 0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:13.160 that like, you're just lying to me. But I was like, 0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:16.560 I want to know what his side is. So I listened, 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:21.680 and like we had a conversation where he told me 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:23.560 all the things like that were going on. 0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:28.239 Then Fara came to stage with a new document, one 0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:31.399 that would close the trust entirely and make it much 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:34.560 harder for her dad to ever access his life savings. 0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:37.759 If she signed this piece of paper, she would be 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:41.880 taking a side. There'd be no going back stage. Didn't 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:44.520 want to be responsible for the millions of dollars in 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:47.960 shared assets her parents were fighting over, and she. 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:50.600 Was supposed to it as I just need your signature 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:54.000 on this thing, just need your one signature, and I 0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:56.680 told her, no, I'm not going to sign it because 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:58.440 I don't want to be in the middle of this. 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:02.440 But saying no to her mother was the red button. 0:41:03.440 --> 0:41:05.640 It felt like me choosing not to sign it was 0:41:05.640 --> 0:41:08.200 me choosing to not have a relationship with her. I 0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:10.520 could just sign it and then this would be over 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:12.879 and I wouldn't have to deal with this excruciating pain. 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:15.359 But I didn't, And that was like the first time 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:17.480 that she truly stopped speaking to me. 0:41:18.239 --> 0:41:19.960 And then came the call from her dad. 0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:24.160 He called me and was like, did you sign the document? 0:41:24.440 --> 0:41:26.600 And I said no, I didn't. I promise you I 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:30.200 didn't sign the document and he was like, you didn't 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:31.759 sign here you one hundred percent sure, and I'm like, 0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:33.840 I this was the hardest thing I've ever done in 0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:34.360 my life. 0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:35.640 I'm one hundred percent sure. 0:41:36.160 --> 0:41:38.319 I didn't sign the document, and he was like, your 0:41:38.360 --> 0:41:39.800 signature is on the document. 0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:43.800 I just told my dad again and again I didn't 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:45.640 do it, and he believed me. 0:41:47.000 --> 0:41:50.720 Then how did her signature get on the document? Sage 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:53.799 felt like her own boundaries had been violated. 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:03.880 And then I started therapy. Also, really really was the 0:42:03.960 --> 0:42:07.520 thing that helped me process and understand and start to 0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:11.160 gain clarity. It was through therapy that I started to 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:15.080 set boundaries with her, and then it's. 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:19.360 Over Going to therapy helped Sage understand that her dynamic 0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.200 with her mom was not normal, like how her mom 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:26.680 would react whenever Sage wasn't doing what she wanted. 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:29.560 She would pretend she had a knife and she'd be like, 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:31.440 this is what you're doing to me, like stabbing her, 0:42:31.560 --> 0:42:32.520 like it was awful. 0:42:33.040 --> 0:42:35.880 When Sage moved to New York, she began forming her 0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:40.879 own identity separate from her mom. She started making new 0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:44.360 friends and forming new ideas about the world. Instead of 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.359 being happy for her, far began ignoring Sage's calls and 0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:54.160 distancing herself emotionally from Sage. Meanwhile, Dan's case moved forward, 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:57.759 a hearing was set in Malaysia, and Sage made a 0:42:57.800 --> 0:42:59.280 decision she never. 0:42:59.160 --> 0:42:59.840 Thought she would. 0:43:00.920 --> 0:43:03.560 Ultimately, I decided to be involved in the court case. 0:43:04.480 --> 0:43:06.319 I think it was also for myself because I think 0:43:06.360 --> 0:43:08.319 there was something about that that was healing. To get 0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:12.479 to finally say this happened to me in a public way. 0:43:13.680 --> 0:43:17.680 Sage submitted a notarized epidavit to the Malaysian court declaring 0:43:17.800 --> 0:43:20.840 that she did not sign for the revocation of the trust, 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:24.000 nor did she have any knowledge of the transfer of 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:28.640 the trust assets or knowledge of Bara becoming director. When 0:43:28.640 --> 0:43:31.600 the hearing date came, she and her dad went together 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:35.839 to Malaysia and Sage took the stand, giving an emotional 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:39.479 testimony about the ways she felt manipulated by her mother. 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:44.160 Sage didn't expect the way her mom's lawyers responded to 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:45.120 her testimony. 0:43:45.760 --> 0:43:50.080 During her testimony, they showed a picture of us happily, 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:53.359 you know, in a family gathering with us together. We're 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:55.920 all smiling in the picture, and they says, is this 0:43:56.120 --> 0:43:58.719 looks like you're being abused or is this like a 0:43:58.800 --> 0:44:03.200 pictures showing that you are abused, and of course you 0:44:03.239 --> 0:44:05.040 look at the things you're just saying, no, I mean 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:08.719 I look happy, you know. But the reality is is 0:44:08.760 --> 0:44:11.759 that what is in a picture doesn't show what's really 0:44:11.800 --> 0:44:12.680 behind the scenes. 0:44:14.120 --> 0:44:17.879 Being told literally to my face. Would someone who's being 0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:20.479 abused look like this on a holiday vacation? Would someone 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:23.200 who's being abused be smiling like this? Your mom has 0:44:23.239 --> 0:44:25.680 done this, this, and this humanitarian for the world, like 0:44:26.239 --> 0:44:27.000 you're just lying. 0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:33.080 That contradiction between her humanitarian work and her family's lived 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:37.560 experience with her was also something Dan in Sage had 0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:39.520 to come to terms with themselves. 0:44:40.080 --> 0:44:42.759 It's not always just a black and white someone is 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:45.600 good or evil. That you can have parts of you 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:47.920 that are good and it doesn't take away from the 0:44:47.920 --> 0:44:49.760 fact that you can do something terrible. 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:53.200 When Dan looks back on all the humanitarian work Fara 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:55.440 has done, he sees a pattern. 0:44:56.600 --> 0:44:59.120 In retrospect. It looks like she was doing a lot 0:44:59.160 --> 0:45:03.399 of these right things for the wrong reasons. The right 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:07.239 things were like medicines to Iraq, you know, doing all 0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:12.680 these wonderful things, but it wasn't for the reasons I 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:16.160 thought it was for the reasons that it got her attention. 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:19.520 It got her notoriety. That's what she loved. 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.960 After the hearing, they waited for the ruling, and when 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:26.600 the decision came, they were shocked. 0:45:27.640 --> 0:45:31.600 They dismissed the case. How could that be? But they 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:36.160 didn't know why. I didn't know why it had been dismissed. 0:45:36.640 --> 0:45:39.239 There was not a judgment, there was only a dismissal. 0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:42.400 That's strange, is this never happens. 0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:47.280 Even Dan's attorney was confused. He'd been confident in their case. 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:52.400 An outright dismissal wasn't even on the radar, but the 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:55.480 court was saying Dan didn't even have a leg to 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:55.960 stand on. 0:45:57.000 --> 0:46:00.879 I just immediately said, that's wrong. Can't have this. 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:05.520 Dan's dad had been a judge. As a kid, he'd 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:08.719 sit in his dad's courtroom and bang the gavel. He 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:12.200 was raised to value justice and fairness, and when his 0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:16.320 case in Malaysia was dismissed, he felt justice had been denied. 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:20.719 The core part of that shock to me was that 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:27.319 they had completely ignored Sage's testimony. It basically said in there, 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:30.799 she's not believable. And this was like hit me to 0:46:30.880 --> 0:46:33.719 the core. It's like, how could that be? You know, 0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:39.880 this is not something that you ignore. I don't know, Sage, 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:41.160 how did that make you feel? 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:44.600 That felt so degrading. 0:46:46.920 --> 0:46:52.760 I spoke the truth To then not be believed hurts 0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:53.319 even more. 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:59.120 Dan wanted to appeal the dismissal, but to move forward 0:46:59.440 --> 0:47:03.280 he would have to pay fifty thousand dollars. They didn't 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:06.480 have that money, so Sage had an idea to start 0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:10.560 a GoFundMe sharing their story and trying to fundraise for 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:11.560 the appeal fees. 0:47:12.440 --> 0:47:15.360 And I had to promote this go fundme thing to 0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:21.040 my professional community. I'm sure I lost some respect because 0:47:21.080 --> 0:47:23.560 people just maybe just didn't believe it. 0:47:22.760 --> 0:47:27.239 It was embarrassing for Dan. Sage helped write the fundraiser 0:47:27.280 --> 0:47:31.400 page telling the story of what happened to their family. Trust, 0:47:31.719 --> 0:47:36.279 friends and colleagues of Dan submitted testimonies about him. But 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:39.480 after they put up the page, Baras sent a letter 0:47:39.680 --> 0:47:42.000 threatening to sue Dan for defamation. 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:45.400 This letter was trying to silence me and trying to 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:49.640 literally prevent me from raising money to protect myself. 0:47:52.000 --> 0:47:56.160 I think initially when she sent the letter, my response 0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:57.759 was put it in my name. Then she has to 0:47:57.840 --> 0:48:00.520 sue me, and that looks worse, And then I think 0:48:00.520 --> 0:48:02.120 we didn't even end up doing that because it's like 0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:03.080 we're telling the truth. 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:09.040 You actually don't get to keep silencing the story. Stop. 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:10.960 We're allowed to have our voices. 0:48:12.520 --> 0:48:15.160 In the end, they didn't raise the money they needed 0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:15.920 for the appeal. 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:19.680 I lost the appeal not on grounds, but on procedural 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:21.799 and it's like we didn't pay the money. He lost 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:22.200 the suit. 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:26.320 There are safeguards in place in California, where Dan filed 0:48:26.360 --> 0:48:31.520 for divorce. California imposes a temporary restraining order over financial 0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:36.800 assets while divorce is pending. Those laws don't apply in Malaysia. 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:40.440 Dan worries that even if he can get access to 0:48:40.480 --> 0:48:43.600 the trust again, the money may not be there anymore. 0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:47.719 And the same goes for his cherished home in Malaysia. 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:49.600 Not only did she put it up for sale in 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:53.279 January against those orders. I found out since that there's 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:58.400 a crypto site that sells real estate promoting the property. 0:48:59.440 --> 0:49:03.120 Today Dan's case is trapped in a thicket of international law. 0:49:03.840 --> 0:49:06.640 It's been seven years since he discovered he was removed 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:09.719 from the family trust. It's meant Dan spent most of 0:49:09.760 --> 0:49:13.719 his sixties locked out of his life savings. His late 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:16.240 dad had loved a safety deposit box with a few 0:49:16.320 --> 0:49:19.640 thousand dollars worth of coins and stocks that Dan was 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:20.960 able to access. 0:49:21.640 --> 0:49:23.799 It was only because of that money that I was 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:25.600 able to depart Malaysia. 0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:28.560 He moved back to the US and found a cheap 0:49:28.600 --> 0:49:30.399 apartment to rent and. 0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:33.440 Just kind of scraped by until I could apply for 0:49:33.440 --> 0:49:36.280 Social Security. And then I lived basically on one thousand 0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.160 dollars a month, and I have been ever since. 0:49:40.200 --> 0:49:42.600 For those first few years back in the US, Dan 0:49:42.760 --> 0:49:45.440 was in a dark place. He felt like he'd failed 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:48.640 his children. He spent a lot of time reconnecting with 0:49:48.680 --> 0:49:52.480 his daughter and grieving with her. These days, Stage is 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.799 no longer religious. While the decision to step away from 0:49:55.840 --> 0:49:58.879 religion has been healthy and right for her, she knows 0:49:58.920 --> 0:50:02.120 that Islam as a religion was never the problem. It 0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:04.800 was a way that Fara used religion as a tool 0:50:04.840 --> 0:50:09.319 of control to elevate herself, to demand obedience, and to 0:50:09.480 --> 0:50:13.759 justify her behavior. The harm Fara caused was specific to her, 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:18.320 not to Islam. Going to therapy has helped Sage understand 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:21.640 those patterns in her mom's behavior. She's even brought her 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:24.440 dad to some of her therapy sessions for them to 0:50:24.520 --> 0:50:25.440 process together. 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.400 One of the things that I think was extremely positive 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:33.279 about this was that suddenly Sage and I could have 0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:39.160 a relationship that was based on truth. We'd basically set 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.160 everything to each other about how we felt about each 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:46.040 other and understanding ourselves. I mean, there were things revealed 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:49.320 that Sage didn't know about me and me about her. 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:53.520 I heard that Sage had a crisis in BALI that 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:58.520 I was oblivious to. I was oblivious to partly because 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:00.960 of the hiding and the keeping things from me. But 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.960 I'm sad now because I wasn't there to recognize that 0:51:05.120 --> 0:51:08.640 and to see it. And you know, I'm yeah, I'm 0:51:08.680 --> 0:51:11.920 sorry that I wasn't there. There was kind of a 0:51:12.040 --> 0:51:16.160 breaking of the silence and allowing us to, you know, 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:17.680 I could be a parent again. 0:51:19.480 --> 0:51:24.080 Getting to process that was really healing, because that anger 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:27.840 can then turn into forgiveness and the relationship that we 0:51:27.880 --> 0:51:30.759 have now he's not just my dad, but we're also 0:51:30.880 --> 0:51:31.600 really good friends. 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:36.800 Their relationship today is incredibly strong. They live fifteen minutes 0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:39.960 away from each other, They have breakfast together once a 0:51:40.000 --> 0:51:42.400 week and walk Stage's dog on the beach. 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:46.520 I think part of the healing too, is like just 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.600 getting to have a relationship that's not about any of 0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:53.799 what we went through and having just fun and like 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:58.800 kind of a fresh start. He will design woodworking tables 0:51:58.800 --> 0:52:01.040 for me and we'll go build it at the woodworking studio. 0:52:01.440 --> 0:52:03.520 So we're making a dining table. Dat I sent you 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:04.960 the ones I like, And you have to make the 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:05.760 cat drives. 0:52:06.320 --> 0:52:07.560 You promise, I know, I know. 0:52:07.680 --> 0:52:08.959 We have to figure that out. 0:52:09.320 --> 0:52:12.640 And you're so good at building and crafting and creating. 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:17.560 Anger and resentment just aren't in their nature. Even though 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:21.120 they experienced a life changing betrayal and a loss that 0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.239 they might never see resolved, Dan wants to spend the 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:27.480 rest of his life focused on what he does have now, 0:52:27.920 --> 0:52:29.960 which is a relationship with his kids. 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:33.680 Justice is like a huge word for you that like 0:52:34.080 --> 0:52:36.600 you want justice and you want and like what does 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:39.680 that look like? And I think the reality of where 0:52:39.719 --> 0:52:41.839 we are now is it might not look like what 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.080 we wanted it to look like in our heads. 0:52:44.320 --> 0:52:46.920 Yeah, it may not be just. I mean that justice 0:52:47.000 --> 0:52:50.200 doesn't have to exist. It sometimes doesn't. 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:52.200 Well, I think, but I think it's more that it 0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.759 like the justice that we have is that we have 0:52:56.920 --> 0:53:00.640 this relationship, which is more valuable than any of the 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.239 money or any of the things, and she doesn't get 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:07.600 to have that. In many ways, I still love my 0:53:07.680 --> 0:53:12.520 mom and I still have worry and concern for her, 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:17.239 and I think, damn it, I think that like. 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:21.360 She's very lonely. Like that's sad. 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:26.040 You know, she's pushed everyone away so much that she's alone, 0:53:26.360 --> 0:53:29.200 and like what an awful Like underneath all of the 0:53:30.000 --> 0:53:34.000 personality stuff that goes on is someone who's deeply alone. 0:53:34.320 --> 0:53:39.080 And probably I don't know, Like it's just I think. 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:46.000 We're pretty cool, dad, and like getting to have this 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:50.440 relationship is actually more valuable than any of the money 0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:51.879 or any of the things. 0:53:53.000 --> 0:53:55.680 And maybe that is justice. 0:53:55.880 --> 0:53:58.720 Now that I have my family back, literally my daughter 0:53:58.760 --> 0:54:02.600 and my two kids, that is the thing that feels 0:54:02.840 --> 0:54:05.600 just and feels right and feels like something that's been 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:07.160 denied and is now restored. 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:12.000 We end every weekly episode with the same question, why 0:54:12.000 --> 0:54:13.280 do you want to share your story? 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:18.480 This is about transformation, right, How can I be better 0:54:18.520 --> 0:54:21.960 as a result of the impact of this. I could 0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:24.520 just swallow in it like I did for a long time, 0:54:24.800 --> 0:54:27.040 But if we want a better world, we should build 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:30.480 a better world and design a better world. So I'd 0:54:30.520 --> 0:54:33.880 like to go from an understanding of this betrayal to 0:54:34.480 --> 0:54:37.600 building a blueprint for a better world. 0:54:38.160 --> 0:54:42.000 As for why Sage is telling the story with her dad, all. 0:54:41.840 --> 0:54:45.319 Of this is not to make her the devil, you know, 0:54:45.480 --> 0:54:48.520 like it's That's not what the goal of this is 0:54:48.600 --> 0:54:51.319 for any of us. It's more to be able to 0:54:52.239 --> 0:54:57.560 share our experiences and be one hundred percent truthful. I'm 0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:00.560 aware that she's not going to like it. She has 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:05.800 vilified him to so many communities, but I think getting 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:10.000 to see him tell his story matters, and getting to 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:14.920 have him get some sort of justice matters, and I 0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:18.400 think part of that is being heard and believed. I'm 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:21.320 sorry he had to go through what he's going through 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:24.960 because he didn't deserve it. I hope that on the 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:28.520 other side of this is healing for him too, because 0:55:28.520 --> 0:55:29.160 he deserves that. 0:55:34.880 --> 0:55:37.320 On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly. 0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:44.680 They had a recording that showed the hillside just calm, quiet, settled, 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:50.000 and then right after that it was the recording of 0:55:50.719 --> 0:55:54.880 the same exact spot, the same exact house burning to 0:55:54.960 --> 0:55:59.120 the ground. 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:02.760 If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 0:56:02.800 --> 0:56:05.680 team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email 0:56:05.800 --> 0:56:10.080 us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:13.959 at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at 0:56:13.960 --> 0:56:18.120 Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram 0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:22.720 at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content, 0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:26.279 and connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at 0:56:26.280 --> 0:56:30.120 Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support. 0:56:30.640 --> 0:56:32.839 One way to show support is by subscribing to our 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:35.600 show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and 0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:39.040 review Betrayal five star reviews go a long way. A 0:56:39.120 --> 0:56:42.680 big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is 0:56:42.680 --> 0:56:45.640 a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment 0:56:45.640 --> 0:56:49.360 Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:53.040 produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced 0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:57.040 by me Andrea Gunning. This episode was written and produced 0:56:57.040 --> 0:57:00.719 by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboord, with additional production from 0:57:00.760 --> 0:57:05.640 Ben Fetterman, casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team 0:57:05.680 --> 0:57:09.680 is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:13.560 by Matt del Vechio. Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:18.880 Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by 0:57:18.920 --> 0:57:22.560 my Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the 0:57:22.600 --> 0:57:30.959 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.