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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a gorgeous mother of five.

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Speaker 1: Her body has been found off a hiking trail. Now

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Speaker 1: we know the condition of her body. According to an

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Speaker 1: alleged eyewitness, Rachel Morin was found naked, lying on her

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Speaker 1: back on a hiking trail near a tunnel, with nearly

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Speaker 1: half her face bashed away. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Series six one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to this.

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Speaker 2: This mate.

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Speaker 3: Law enforcement swarming the area for almost a full day,

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Speaker 3: Gaverzski's stepdaughter locating the body in about an hour.

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Speaker 4: Once we got down there and I started seeing them tunnels,

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Speaker 4: I started getting goosebumps.

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Speaker 3: The deadly discovery made in a tunnel drink not far

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Speaker 3: from the trail's main entrance.

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Speaker 4: I saw a terrible mess.

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Speaker 3: Goverzewski's visions meeting the reality of a gruesome scene.

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Speaker 4: There's not going to be an open casket. I can

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Speaker 4: guarantee you that.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends at Fox forty five, but also

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Speaker 1: the man that says he found the body, Michael Brezievski

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Speaker 1: with me and All Star Panalt to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know right now. But first to chief investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter with dailymail dot Com, Jen Smith. Jen tell me

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Speaker 1: his description of how Rachel was found.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's pretty disturbing. Nancy. This her mother of five.

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Speaker 5: He describes a pretty brutal seeing the condition of her body,

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Speaker 5: really really badly beaten up. Like you said at the

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Speaker 5: top of the show, half of her face it looked

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Speaker 5: like almost gone. In fact, the way that he described

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Speaker 5: it was that it looked as if someone was trying

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Speaker 5: to erase her identity. That is how badly beaten this

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Speaker 5: woman's face was. She was lying on her back, she

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Speaker 5: was naked, and she had been brutally assaulted.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to determine what this means simply in the

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Speaker 1: search for a killer. How likely is it that someone

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Speaker 1: she knew would blood at her so horribly, as if

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Speaker 1: trying to hide her identity, would leave her naked, lying there,

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Speaker 1: lying there on a public hiking trail. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to more from our friend Rebecca Pryor.

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Speaker 3: Whoever the killer is. Gabrazski convinced it's someone with close

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Speaker 3: ties to the victim.

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Speaker 4: Because it's too personal. If somebody were just to do

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Speaker 4: a thrill kill. It wouldn't be as brutal as what

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Speaker 4: we witnessed.

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Speaker 1: Would it or wouldn't it? With me an all Star

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Speaker 1: panelty makes of what we're learning now about the brutal

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Speaker 1: way in which Rachel Wore, a mother of five, was murdered,

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Speaker 1: straight out to doctor Bethany Marshall, very well known psycho

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Speaker 1: Allen's joining us out of Beverly Hills. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Doctor Bethany. Listen, this

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Speaker 1: could go a number of ways. We've got plenty of

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Speaker 1: cases where a woman is out jogging or hiking and

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Speaker 1: she's brutally murdered by a stranger. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about those. We have a lot more cases where a

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Speaker 1: lot of other not necessarily more, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: other cases where a partner, a boyfriend and ex, a husband,

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Speaker 1: a long time my high school sweetheart raises his head

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Speaker 1: like a monster. But in this case, I want to

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Speaker 1: hear your analysis of the way Rachel's body was found.

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Speaker 1: What does that tell you about her killer?

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Speaker 6: Well, I do think it was a crime of opportunity,

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Speaker 6: because if this was a domestic I think it would

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Speaker 6: be in a home. I think there would be a

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Speaker 6: lot of digital evidence of somebody harassing her, stalking her

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Speaker 6: if it was somebody that she knew. But this was

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Speaker 6: out in nature, which suggests to me that somebody was

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Speaker 6: out there waiting to assault a woman. And we know

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Speaker 6: that women are often at the greatest risk when they

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Speaker 6: take the same route again and again and in places

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Speaker 6: that are secluded, but also like public hiking trails. The

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Speaker 6: fact that her face was bashed in, I don't see

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Speaker 6: this so much as trying to identify I'm sorry to

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Speaker 6: erase the identity of the victim, because obviously it's her.

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Speaker 6: I see this as somebody who really wants to wants

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Speaker 6: to do a brutal assault on a woman. But that's

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Speaker 6: the ama of brutal assault, just for the sake of

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Speaker 6: inflicting harm and terror. You know, often with these crimes, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: the face is assaulted or the head is removed from

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Speaker 6: the body and it's severed from the body and of

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Speaker 6: and people say, oh, they're trying to erase the identity

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Speaker 6: of the victim. I don't think of it that way.

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Speaker 6: I think they're trying to destroy the beauty of the victim.

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Speaker 6: This woman was beautiful. If you see her photos. She's

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Speaker 6: beautiful as a woman, she had a mother of five,

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Speaker 6: but beautiful individually on her own. She had a gorgeous face,

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Speaker 6: and I think defacing her in such a terrible way

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Speaker 6: that half of her face was gone, I think the

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Speaker 6: thrill of the kill is taking away her beauty and

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Speaker 6: her individuality.

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Speaker 1: To Jessica Garth, joining us, the chief of the Special

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Speaker 1: Victims and Family Violence Unit and the state's Attorney's Office

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Speaker 1: Prince George County, Maryland, Jessica, you and I both saying

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Speaker 1: a lot of homicide usually you know of women and children,

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Speaker 1: but in this case, I also find it very primitive.

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Speaker 1: In other words, it proves something that not only was

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Speaker 1: her face bashed in because the killer didn't have to

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Speaker 1: do that to affect murder, but that also she was

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Speaker 1: found naked, exposed out on a hiking trail. That tells

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Speaker 1: me something as well. What do you make of it,

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Speaker 1: Jessica Garth.

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Speaker 7: Well, I think the first thing you have to think

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Speaker 7: about is whether or not she was sexually assaulted before

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Speaker 7: or even after she was so brutally taken from us

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Speaker 7: in this case, so you know, we can hope that

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Speaker 7: that's part of the investigation. The potential DNA evidence might

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Speaker 7: result from that investigation, which would help us find the

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Speaker 7: person who killed her.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about that possibility of a sex assault, Jessica,

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Speaker 1: if she Rachel Lauren, had been sex assaulted, would that

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Speaker 1: tend to indicate to you her killer was someone she

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Speaker 1: knew or a stranger.

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Speaker 7: Well to me, Nancy, I think it could cut either way.

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Speaker 7: I think we know that domestic abusers often use sexual

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Speaker 7: assault as a means of power and control when they're doing,

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Speaker 7: you know, the ultimate act of taking a life. It's

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Speaker 7: the ultimate means of taking power and control over that person,

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Speaker 7: usually a woman. However, I think, you know, doctor Bethany

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Speaker 7: makes a good point that if this were a crime

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Speaker 7: of opportunity, you know, this could have been a sexual

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Speaker 7: assault and the victim man fought back, or perhaps the

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Speaker 7: attacker intended to kill her, you know, from the first place.

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Speaker 7: But if she did fight back in this case, as

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Speaker 7: Rachel thought for her life, I think that would also

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Speaker 7: lend itself as to why she was beaten so brutally

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Speaker 7: in this case. If she was, you know, if she

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Speaker 7: enraged her attacker in an attempt to save her own life.

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Speaker 1: Many people suggested that she was killed elsewhere and then

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Speaker 1: dumped there. But what we're learning about a description of

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Speaker 1: the scene tells me that is the location of the murder,

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Speaker 1: not that she was murdered in her homework apartment and

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Speaker 1: then dumped there. Let's take a listen to more about

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Speaker 1: what we know about the same, which I consider to

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Speaker 1: be not a secondary or tertiary, but a primary crime scene.

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Speaker 1: In other words, she wasn't killed at home, she wasn't

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Speaker 1: killed a car, she wasn't killed elsewhere, transported there and

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Speaker 1: then dumped there, making it a tertiary crime scene. I

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Speaker 1: think it was the primary take ust in our cut

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Speaker 1: thirty two our friends at Fox forty five.

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Speaker 8: Brutal and gruesome is how Michael Jebberzski describes what he

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Speaker 8: and his stepdaughter say they uncovered today. He took us

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Speaker 8: to the MA and Pod trail to show us exactly

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Speaker 8: where he says he uncovered Murn's body. It wasn't far

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Speaker 8: from the William Street entrance here had estimate only about

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Speaker 8: a quarter mile in.

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Speaker 4: I had never walked with myself.

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Speaker 3: For Michael Gaberzski.

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Speaker 4: I told my stepdaughter, I said, look, it's not gonna

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Speaker 4: be laying out in the open.

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Speaker 3: The mon Paul Trail in bel Air, uncharted territory.

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Speaker 4: I said, she's going to be tucked away somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Gebrzenski and his stepdaughter taking off on a search rooted

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Speaker 3: on instinct.

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Speaker 4: I just kept seeing tunnels in my mind. I don't

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Speaker 4: know why, but I just kept seeing tunnel.

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Speaker 1: Now, it's really interesting that, according to others, searchers had

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Speaker 1: been all over this area, but not far from the

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Speaker 1: Williams Street entrance. This dad and his stepdaughter find the body,

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Speaker 1: and it is reminiscent of another case similar. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you'll remember it. When Gabby Batito went missing, there was

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Speaker 1: a basically a worldwide search for her fiance, Brian Laundry.

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Speaker 1: Now his parents said, and his car indicated they were

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Speaker 1: telling the truth that he went into Carlton Reserve, about

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Speaker 1: twenty five thousand acres of nature, including gators, swamps, snakes,

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Speaker 1: you name it. The FBI and others had searched for

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Speaker 1: days for Brian Laundry. But this is what happened when

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Speaker 1: his parents went in to look for him, and just

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Speaker 1: about an hour. Take a listen to hour cut three

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Speaker 1: five three from Live Now at Fox.

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Speaker 9: Any worldwide exclusive video obtained by News Digital shows the

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Speaker 9: Laundries and the law enforcement officer, huddling and speaking as

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Speaker 9: the officer appears to show the couple in unknown discovery.

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Speaker 9: The officer appeared to tell the parents, I think we

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Speaker 9: might have found something. During the couple's time inside, Chris

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Speaker 9: Laundry could be seen continually moving in and out of

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Speaker 9: areas of the brush. After a short while, he and ROBERTA.

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Speaker 9: Laundry separated, with Chris and the two men moving into

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Speaker 9: the brush on the left side of the trail for

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Speaker 9: approximately twelve minutes. Chris returned without law enforcement and the couple.

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Speaker 1: Continued on and more than three five four.

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Speaker 9: The Laundryes later discovered a white bag and a dark

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Speaker 9: colored object after traveling through a patch of brambles at

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Speaker 9: the edge of the brush at a clearing. They then

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Speaker 9: could be seen putting the object into the bag and

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Speaker 9: handing it over to a law enforcement officer shortly thereafter,

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Speaker 9: who later took it from them. On their way out

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Speaker 9: of the park, the couple made a phone call and

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Speaker 9: then received a call. They were soon joined by the

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Speaker 9: law enforcement officer, who could be seen patting Chris Laundry's

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Speaker 9: shoulder as he.

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Speaker 1: Huddled with the couple. The couple left the.

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Speaker 9: Park at around eight forty five and a pard emotional

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Speaker 9: when confronted by protesters there. Meanwhile, about a dozen uniformed

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Speaker 9: law enforcement officers and approximately six people in plane clothes

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Speaker 9: could be seen entering the park, with several police or

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Speaker 9: unmarked vehicles and gators seen entering. The Northport Mobile Command

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Speaker 9: Center arrived at the park shortly after ten thirty am

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Speaker 9: local time. The laundryes returned home shortly thereafter.

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Speaker 1: So with all of the searchers in Carlton Park, the

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Speaker 1: parents go in and in less than two hours it

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Speaker 1: was about Jack. It wasn't it a little over an

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Speaker 1: hour they find Brian laundry. They find articles belonging to him,

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Speaker 1: as do police, and it seems to be what happened here.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is a renowned searcher, Tony Wade, commander of

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Speaker 1: the Cajun Coast Search and Rescue Team. You can find

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Speaker 1: them on Facebook at Cajun Coast sa R. Tony. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know, when you go

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Speaker 1: into a search like this, it's very difficult. I've been

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Speaker 1: on them. You have to go basically shoulder to shoulder

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Speaker 1: so you don't miss anything so much as a sock

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Speaker 1: or a bra or a hair brett. You know, that

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Speaker 1: reminds me. We took the twins to the beach and

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Speaker 1: Lucy lost her favorite hair brett. Do you know how

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Speaker 1: long we looked for the hair brit? We found it,

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Speaker 1: by the way. But long story short, you're looking for anything,

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Speaker 1: any minute piece of clothing or an artifact from the victim. Here.

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Speaker 1: Apparently searchers had been in there for some time and

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Speaker 1: this dad and stepdaughter go in and they find her.

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Speaker 1: He says he had had premonitions of looking at a tunnel,

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Speaker 1: and sure enough she was found near a tunnel. Describe

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Speaker 1: a search like this in a wilderness preserved Tony.

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Speaker 2: First of all, you know, these searches are extremely difficult.

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Speaker 2: It's covering a massive area. You know, the first thing

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Speaker 2: that take place in a search this magnitude is to

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Speaker 2: set up a grid and have everybody run that grid,

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Speaker 2: where everybody crosses where each other has walked. You know,

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Speaker 2: also inss like this, if there are caves or their

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Speaker 2: tunnels or things such as that, those need to be targets.

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Speaker 2: You know, they would say correctly earlier that they're probably

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Speaker 2: not going to be left out in the wide open.

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Speaker 2: We find that to be true in most cases. So

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Speaker 2: if they're opening somewhere, we target those pretty hard in first.

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Speaker 2: But the es central part of doing a search like that,

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Speaker 2: it's just a very good grid, you know, depending on

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Speaker 2: how many searches you have out there, and stick to

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Speaker 2: that grid until every square inch is covered, and look

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Speaker 2: for anything that doesn't belong. You know, most people get

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Speaker 2: tunnel vision and they're looking for a body, or they're

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Speaker 2: looking for a certain object, and they're losing focus on

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Speaker 2: other things that are there. You know, we instruct everybody

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Speaker 2: to look for anything that does not fit. If the

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Speaker 2: grass is green and there's something blue, then the blue

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Speaker 2: doesn't fit. But again, he searches are extremely difficult to.

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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining us share a former homicide and undercover agent,

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Speaker 1: author of Silent Blue Tears, Voice of the Victims, and

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Speaker 1: you can find him at Ron Bateman books dot com

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Speaker 1: on thank you for being with us. The search was extensive,

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Speaker 1: but it has happened. It has happened, and we saw

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Speaker 1: it happen with Chris and roberta laundry. That Carlton Reserve,

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Speaker 1: which granted is twenty five thousand acres of wildness, have

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Speaker 1: been searched, had been aerial searched, you name it. Dogs

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Speaker 1: have been brought out to the extent they could go

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Speaker 1: into a swamp. But the parents go in, and I

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Speaker 1: noticed that they started to where his car, Brian Laundry's

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Speaker 1: car had in part. They start there and walk straight

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Speaker 1: in and they find him. It's certainly not unheard of.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, and that's stunk right off the bat to me.

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Speaker 10: In the case like this where I'm hearing this Michael

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Speaker 10: g fella, you know, taking his stepdaughter to a certain

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Speaker 10: area that that's concerning to me and to me talking

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Speaker 10: about the gentleman about a search there. This is obvious

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Speaker 10: that it is a bloody scene. So therefore the suspect

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Speaker 10: is definitely going to have blood on him. So a

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Speaker 10: search really needs to be intensified looking for an article

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Speaker 10: of clothing that the killer would have dumped, whether he

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Speaker 10: or she buried it somewhere in that woods. And again

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Speaker 10: the grid search would really produce that. But also the

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Speaker 10: surrounding area where you need to search sumpters, you know,

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Speaker 10: where nearby, you know, convenience stores, dumpsters, the person's trash

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Speaker 10: can I'd want to know. Again, we talked about ring

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Speaker 10: cameras or the other type of models on doors the

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Speaker 10: other day. I would want to know what some of

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Speaker 10: our prime people ex boyfriend, I mean a boyfriend, the

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Speaker 10: ex husband, Michael G. Stepdaughter, what they were wearing when

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Speaker 10: they left the home, and how they returned. Did they

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Speaker 10: return without a shirt, that they return with a different

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Speaker 10: color shirt, So that that search is really really key,

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Speaker 10: and hitting local dompsters before they get emptied is real important.

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Speaker 1: Way you were saying, you'd be curious as to what

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Speaker 1: who was wearing when they left home.

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Speaker 10: So you know, it's really important to work as hard

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Speaker 10: to exclude a suspect as it is to develop one.

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Speaker 10: So I would immediate look at the ex husband, the boyfriend,

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Speaker 10: this Michael G. Fella, the stepdaughter, and I say the

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Speaker 10: stepdaughter not as a suspect, to exclude her because you

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Speaker 10: have the principle of transference of evidence. When you go somewhere,

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Speaker 10: you most likely leave something of yours behind, hair, semen,

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Speaker 10: what have you, and you take something with you. It

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Speaker 10: could be the person's blood, it could be the person's

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Speaker 10: So we were want to exclude these people as much

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Speaker 10: as we wanted to develop them.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm curious when you say Michael G. You are

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Speaker 1: referring to the guy who says he found her.

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Speaker 10: Correct, Yes, ma'am, I don't want to destroy his last name.

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Speaker 1: I hear you. Okay, guys, it's not the first time

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Speaker 1: that an innocent person finds a body and then they

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Speaker 1: because they find a body, become a suspect. I want

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Speaker 1: to tell you about a story, Jackie. I think I've

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Speaker 1: told you this before, I said, over there, yeah, I said,

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Speaker 1: this is true. Story. When I was subbing for Larry King,

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Speaker 1: which was a huge, great honor for me to be

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Speaker 1: his permanent guest host, I just couldn't believe that happened

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Speaker 1: to me. Well, one night, Larry couldn't come in, and

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Speaker 1: at the last minute I did a segment a whole

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Speaker 1: show on psychic detectives, of course, which I did not

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Speaker 1: believe in, and we covered a case where a woman

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Speaker 1: who believes out in California, was I think at her

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Speaker 1: kitchen sink. She says she had a vision something white,

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Speaker 1: just like Tony Wade was saying, if you see something

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Speaker 1: that doesn't fit in, look at it. Something white out

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Speaker 1: in a canyon, and it was so strong. She got

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Speaker 1: her husband and her son in the car. This was

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Speaker 1: at night, by the way, and they go driving out

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Speaker 1: in the canyons and they see something white. They go

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Speaker 1: over and it was a nurse that had gone missing.

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Speaker 1: She was dead. Well, guess what the cops I swear,

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Speaker 1: I believe it was the LA cops. Hey, Sue, could

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Speaker 1: you look this up? The LA cops arrest her because

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Speaker 1: they're like, woman, you did not have a vision, Ata

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Speaker 1: Louise Smith, yeses Eda Louise Smith, absolutely, And they arrest

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Speaker 1: the woman because how else in the world would she

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Speaker 1: know there's a body out in a canyon? Well lo

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Speaker 1: and behold. As the investigation goes on, it turns out

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Speaker 1: the victim and nurse had gotten off her shift at

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Speaker 1: the hospital and some technical legal term a holds had

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Speaker 1: pulled up up beside her at a red light and

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Speaker 1: they were heckling her and they grabbed her. I believe

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Speaker 1: they raped her, killed her and threw her body out there.

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Speaker 1: That woman, Atta Louise, she said the lapd and got

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Speaker 1: a huge verdict for that. My point is when people

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Speaker 1: find a body, they often come under suspicion. My friend

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Speaker 1: Phil with Toronto is one of those people. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen hour cut forty nine from Crimewatch Daily.

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Speaker 11: That's a day that I will never forget. I started

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Speaker 11: to worry, which is unusual. I had a feeling, so

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Speaker 11: I called her three times, didn't answer, and I went

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Speaker 11: out looking for her. There was no sign of her.

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Speaker 9: Four hours after Phil's phone calls, pings from Karina's cell

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Speaker 9: phone led him and police to Karina, you found your daughter.

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Speaker 11: I did put the help of the PD.

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Speaker 1: He found his daughter. Who was the last one to

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Speaker 1: speak to her. Do you know they pulled him out

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Speaker 1: of her funeral to get DNA. They should have gotten

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Speaker 1: his DNA. My friend Vilvitrona is not necessarily during his

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Speaker 1: daughter's funeral. But that said, he became a suspect. Of course,

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Speaker 1: he is not involved in any way in Karina's death.

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Speaker 1: I believe the person name was Chanelle Lewis has been

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Speaker 1: convicted based on a mini facturs including DNA. Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: another one. Roy Kronk, the government worker who's out doing

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Speaker 1: his job. He kept seeing something in the bushes. He

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Speaker 1: call police. They wouldn't come, wouldn't come. Finally they came.

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Speaker 1: It was the remains a little Keelee Anthony. Anybody remember

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Speaker 1: the name Todd mom Casey Anthony. Take a listen to

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Speaker 1: hour cut fifty wfts I was standing behind it.

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Speaker 12: I still didn't think it was real, so I very

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Speaker 12: gently took it and put it into the right eye socket,

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Speaker 12: and I gently pivoted it up, and I looked down

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Speaker 12: and I realized what it was, and I set it

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Speaker 12: down as gently as I could and went up and

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Speaker 12: called my area supervisor.

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Speaker 13: Deputies would later uncover tiny bones next to that, tiny

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Speaker 13: skull tossed away like trash.

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Speaker 1: Everybody went cray, Honroy Kronk, who without Kronk, we may

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Speaker 1: never have found little Killee. And then there are the

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Speaker 1: people that sign the bodies that really are involved in

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Speaker 1: the murders. Do I have to say the name Alex

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Speaker 1: Murdogg take a lit star cut forty eight our friends

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Speaker 1: at GMA.

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Speaker 14: In June of twenty twenty one, Murdoch made a nine

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Speaker 14: to one one call claiming he'd found his wife and

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Speaker 14: son shot to death outside their hunting lodge.

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Speaker 3: My name is Alex Murdoch, we heard the one.

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Speaker 14: He was indicted by a grand jury last year and

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Speaker 14: has pleaded not guilty, but prosecutors argue he's a man

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Speaker 14: who lived a double life, alleging Alex killed his family

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Speaker 14: to gain sympathy and distract from mounting financial wrongdoings.

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Speaker 15: The day of reckoning was a punia and he was

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Speaker 15: out of cars to play after he's been playing every

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Speaker 15: car he could forteen years.

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Speaker 1: So there you have it, Jessica Garth. Isn't it true

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Speaker 1: that when somebody calls nine on one or they find

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Speaker 1: the body, you look at them?

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Speaker 6: Absolutely?

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Speaker 7: I mean you have to, especially in cases where they're

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Speaker 7: the person who finds the body when nobody else could.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's just such a it's not a red

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Speaker 7: flag at least, it's an indication that somebody that you

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Speaker 7: should take a closer look at, because you know, how

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Speaker 7: did they know where to go when no one else did?

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Speaker 7: When all of these seasoned investigators couldn't find the body,

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Speaker 7: but this person could.

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Speaker 1: Now, I want you to listen to our friend and

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Speaker 1: cut forty Dave mac at Crime Online.

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Speaker 16: Investigators into the shocking death of thirty seven year old

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Speaker 16: mom of five Rachel Marin have declined a comment on

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Speaker 16: how she died, the type of injury she sustained, or

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Speaker 16: whether she was fully clothed or not. However, a man

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Speaker 16: named Michael Gabrazski claims that he and his stepdaughter Cecilia,

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Speaker 16: and another person were helping search for Marin when Secilia

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Speaker 16: and her friend found the body of Rachel Marin. Gaffraziski

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Speaker 16: says that Secilia Sawmarin's body first and she began hyperventilating.

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Speaker 16: Gbrazziski claims police told Cecilia to sit down, and that

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Speaker 16: she sat down in a big pool of blood.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to circle back to doctor g and Gorniac,

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Speaker 1: an esteemed medical examiner on that pool of blood. But

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Speaker 1: my point here is the following take, Jack, could you

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Speaker 1: play the rest of forty?

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Speaker 16: When the US edition of The Independent reached out to

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Speaker 16: the Sheriff's department to confirm what Gabrazski is claiming, the

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Speaker 16: spokesperson for the department said, quote, he has no first

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Speaker 16: hand knowledge of the crime scene. Unquote. Mister Gabraziski was

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Speaker 16: in the area to help search for the missing woman,

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Speaker 16: the Sheriff's office explained, but said quote, he was not

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Speaker 16: within eyesight of the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. I find that really interesting

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Speaker 1: that now authority saying he didn't find the body. But

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Speaker 1: what I noticed they're not saying. Jen Smith. Jen Smith

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Speaker 1: as a chief investigative reporter with dailymail dot Com who's

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Speaker 1: on this like a cheap suit. Let me tell you, Jen.

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Speaker 1: They're not saying that what Gambrazski's saying is false. They're going, well,

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Speaker 1: he's not the one that actually saw her first. They're

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Speaker 1: saying he wasn't within eyesight. But they're not denying that

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Speaker 1: she was lying out near this tunnel naked with her

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Speaker 1: head bashed in in a pool of blood. They're not

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Speaker 1: saying that's incorrect.

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Speaker 5: They're not and you know, quite frankly, I think what's

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Speaker 5: happened here is this police department is a little frustrated

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Speaker 5: with this man. He has given away all this information

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Speaker 5: that they have been concealing from the public as clearly

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Speaker 5: an investigative tactic. Right, We've seen it before where the

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Speaker 5: police department don't want everybody in the world to know

433
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 5: things about the state of the body or the crime

434
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 5: scene because it, you know, broadens the pool of suspects.

435
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 5: If it's only the killer who knows, then it's going

436
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 5: to be easier to track them down once they come forward,

437
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 5: or you know, whatever it may be, what this man

438
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 5: has described. You're absolutely right, Nancy. They are not refuting it.

439
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 5: They're kind of dancing around it. But we know that

440
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 5: he wasn't alone. He's already said that he was with

441
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 5: his stepdaughter and that actually she was the one who

442
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 5: saw the body first.

443
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: You're right, that's Jackie waving a sign that may he says,

444
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: it's the step daughter. Exactly what you said, Go ahead, right.

445
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 5: I mean, I really think this police department has kind

446
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 5: of tied themselves up a knots and they're getting a

447
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 5: little uppity at this guy for no good reason. Like

448
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 5: you say, he all he's done is shared pieces of

449
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 5: information that they were clearly trying to hold back. And

450
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 5: let me tell you, this police department, maybe they're overwhelmed.

451
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 5: I'm not sure. They haven't been that forthcoming. They have

452
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 5: refused to answer many of our questions from the beginning

453
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 5: of this. They wouldn't even tell us if Rachel had

454
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 5: gone out hiking alone, which was kind of a basic

455
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 5: detail you would think they might want to share. So

456
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 5: I think that they are frustrated with this witness, but

457
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 5: they are not in a position to deny what.

458
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: He is seeing.

459
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: They also back up to some extent what he is describing.

460
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 1: Take us now, cut twenty one. This is the sheriff

461
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Galler.

462
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 17: There's indicators that our detectives have no doubt and I'm

463
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 17: not going to go into what physically they observed that

464
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 17: the scene, but the investigators believe and yeah, it's sadly

465
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 17: it's a homicide case.

466
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: You know what. I believe Michael G. I believe, not necessarily,

467
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: that he was the one that first found her. I

468
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 1: think he was there with a stepdaughter and a friend,

469
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 1: and that the girls, the stepdaughter and the friend found her,

470
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 1: and that he is describing what they saw or maybe

471
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: he came up after that, but they're not refuting what

472
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: he said. And I don't believe that right now he

473
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: is the culprit, which leads me to an esteemed guest

474
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: Doctor Jangarniac, Medical Examiner, Clark County. If you don't know

475
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: what that is, it's Vegas, and there's not a lack

476
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: of business there board certified forensic pathologists. Let's just see

477
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: say that she's seen one or two dead bodies, Doctor Gorniac.

478
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: What convinces me that Michael G is telling the truth,

479
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: whether he found the body first or not, about the

480
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: condition in which she was found, And this also tells

481
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: me this is a primary crime scene. She was in

482
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: a pool of blood and other accounts have stated that

483
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: there was a trail of blood indicating she had been

484
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: dragged to that spot from a short, very short distance away.

485
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: Either way, that tells me that's where she was killed.

486
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: What do you think, doctor Gorniac? And second question, before

487
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: I forget it, doctor Gorniac. With her head bashed in,

488
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: what if she died of just let's say, asphyxiation. What

489
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 1: if strangle dad and then she was beaten post and warm.

490
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: How do we tell with that kind of damage to

491
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: the body, what's the true COEOD cause of death?

492
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 18: Okay, so let's go to your first question about the

493
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 18: primary scene. It does sound like that's the primary scene

494
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 18: because of all the blood. Had it been someplace else,

495
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 18: I don't think there had been that much blood. She

496
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 18: would have blood out someplace else and so there wouldn't

497
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 18: be a lot of blood or evidence there where she

498
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,719
Speaker 18: is our close proximity to her. And then also with

499
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 18: the drag marks the second question, with her extensive head

500
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 18: trauma that she suffered, we will be able to still tell.

501
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 18: The one thing that we do on all hamedicide victims,

502
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 18: especially blunt force trauma, we take X rays. So that's

503
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 18: going to help us. One see injuries before we even

504
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 18: start the autopsy, so that gives us a diagram to

505
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 18: sort of say how to coach the case. So we're

506
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 18: going to have X rays and then if someone is

507
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 18: strangled and actually I've had a case recently like this,

508
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 18: If someone is strangled, there's this the U shaped bone

509
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 18: that's really high up in your neck called the hyoid bone,

510
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 18: and if that's fractured, we can tell whether it's fractured

511
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 18: before death anti mortem or post mortem after death, and

512
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 18: if that's fractured, then we can say they were strangled.

513
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: How can you tell of the hyoid and I'm showing

514
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: where it is right here? Basically doesn't it just kind

515
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: of hold a tongue in place? Is that what it does? Correct? Okay,

516
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: so it's just kind of like floating there. How can

517
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: you tell if the hyoid is fractured anti or post good?

518
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 18: Great question. So the higher bone is very fragile, so

519
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 18: when we're doing the autopsy we can actually break it

520
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 18: taking it out. So in order for us to say

521
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 18: that there was it was fractured before death, we have

522
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 18: to see hemorrhage around it.

523
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: Well, Don Dodger Gorniat Jackie, we just learned something I

524
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: did not know. Did you guys know, Sidney Illy that

525
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: just by taking removing the hyoid, it's so delicate you

526
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: could fracture it. It sounds like a little like a

527
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: delicate seashell that you would find and you pick it

528
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: up and it breaks in your hand.

529
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 10: Correct.

530
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 18: Yes, So we have to always be careful when we're

531
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 18: taking it out. But the body always tells the story,

532
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 18: which is what I love about my profession. It's going

533
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 18: to tell the story.

534
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: You just gave me chills, by the way when you

535
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: said that. Go ahead, man, what I love to have

536
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: you on the stand on direct, not cross, but direct

537
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 1: you kill me, go ahead.

538
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 18: So the hemorrhag, so your body always has to be reacting.

539
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 18: So if the bone is broken before death, your body's

540
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 18: going to react to it, meaning there's going to be

541
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 18: bleeding around it. So that's like if you get a bruise, right,

542
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 18: it's going to bleed, But if you get hit after

543
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 18: your debt, it's not going to have a reaction. So

544
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,719
Speaker 18: if the biobone is broken and we see hemorrhags at

545
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 18: the fracture site, that means it was before death. If

546
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 18: we see a fracture and there is no hemorrhage, meaning

547
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 18: the body did not react to that fracture. Then that

548
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 18: means it was after death. So, like I said, I

549
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 18: just recently had a case where the young lady had

550
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 18: a lot of sharp force injuries to her her face,

551
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 18: and I thought it was going to be that you

552
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 18: know from the glass it with a broken bottle, and

553
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 18: actually when I did the autopsy, she was actually strangled

554
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 18: because of that hyoid bone.

555
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: So you will be able to tell question, doctor Gornia.

556
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: When you go out to dinner with people or you're

557
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: having coffee, do you talk about autopsy? It's not revealing,

558
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: of course, not revealing you know, names or specificities that

559
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: could identify a victim. But do people ask you questions?

560
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: Or am I the only one that could just listen

561
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: to you all day?

562
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 19: No?

563
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 18: Are people people ask questions? And I was like, I

564
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 18: said that, you know, I love my profession that we

565
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 18: get to give a voice to the voiceless and get

566
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 18: to tell their story.

567
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 7: Right.

568
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 18: You know, sometimes people think I do talk to them

569
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 18: and they talk back and they help me tell their story.

570
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 18: And that's what you know. Going to court is about

571
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 18: to being an advocate for the patient. So, but the

572
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 18: questions I don't like is what's the worst thing you've

573
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 18: ever seen? Because you don't want to know that. But

574
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 18: I but I enjoy talking about how I do my job.

575
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 18: You know in some of those stories.

576
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: Hey, can you have a a broken high This is

577
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: a Jackie question. Can you have a broken hyoid bone

578
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and live? I would say yes.

579
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 18: I would say yes too.

580
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: Okay, it's like a broken panky and you can still live.

581
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 18: Right because the thing it takes a lot of pressure

582
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 18: to break the hyoid bone and then you're collapsing vessels

583
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 18: in the airway. And that's why people die from being strangled.

584
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Like if you took a football to the neck, or

585
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: write a baseball or something that could fracture it, but

586
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 1: you still live. Okay, she's happy. Let's run for the

587
00:32:51,720 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: moment before she comes out with something else. So time

588
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: stories with me. It'sy Grace. We're talking about what happened

589
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: to Rachel, Lauren and everybody on the panel. Remember do

590
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: I have to come up with a nee phrase to

591
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: get it into your head? We're not having high tea

592
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: with King Charles and Camilla jump in for Pete's sake

593
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: because I know Doctor Bethany Marshall is standing on her

594
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: head to say something. So, this is what we know,

595
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: this is what's happening. Help me figure out who did it?

596
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Is this the work of someone she didn't know? And

597
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: we've got all the I've got so many similar transactions

598
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: with examples of women out hiking or jogging and they

599
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: were attacked by strangers. You know, for example, let's go

600
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: with thirty one Molly to but it's our friends at Insided.

601
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 20: Listen, we're learning more about what happened to night Molly

602
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 20: Tibbets was slain allegedly by an illegal aliens. This was

603
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 20: the country road where Molly was jogging when police say

604
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 20: the suspect, Christian Rivera, got out of his car and

605
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 20: started running alongside Molly. Molly got scared and pulled out

606
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 20: her phone and threatened to call police. Now what happened

607
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 20: next remains unclear, but somehow Molly ended up inside the

608
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 20: suspect's vehicle. Investigators say he then drove to a spot

609
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 20: on this lonely road where he dumped Molly's body.

610
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: And of course there is the daughter of my friend

611
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: Phil Karina Vitranto, twenty year old Chanel Lewis never met

612
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: her in a life murdered her, brutally beat her. Her

613
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: teeth were found scattered all around. Her face was bashed

614
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: in very similar to Rachel Morris. Take a listen to

615
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: cut twenty eight CBS.

616
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 13: A six month exhaustive man hunt leading to this moment.

617
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 13: Karina Vitranto's family had prayed for year old Janel Lewis

618
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 13: and handcuffs now charge with the thirty year old's murder.

619
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 13: Please say Lewis was trapped down late last week at

620
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 13: his home in East New York, Brooklyn, that he shares

621
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 13: with his mother and sister. It's where investigators say the

622
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 13: unemployed man confessed to detectives that he raped and then

623
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 13: strangled Vitronto. Her body found by her father in the

624
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 13: grassy park land less than a mile from her home.

625
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: And of course we just covered the case of the

626
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: young mom, a teacher, Eliza Fletcher, believe that was in Nymphis.

627
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: Take a listener our twenty three WRG.

628
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 19: Fletcher was jogging down Central Avenue around four point thirty

629
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 19: this morning when investigators say she was approached by someone

630
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 19: who forced her into a dark colored suv and drove off.

631
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: And you don't want to hear that.

632
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 12: That's going on.

633
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: We want to find her.

634
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 12: We don't We don't know what's going on.

635
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 19: Hart Robinson is a friend of Fletcher and got the

636
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 19: news this morning.

637
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: Of course, she was marta coring to police by thirty

638
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: eight year old Cleota Robson, who had never met her.

639
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: He didn't know her from Adam's housecats who murdered Rachel

640
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: mourn This is what we know take Lia SNAr Cut

641
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: forty one, Dave Matt Crime Online.

642
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 16: Since the body of Rachel Marin was discovered in a

643
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 16: drainage tunnel not far from the main entrance of the

644
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 16: man Pod Trail, Michael Gabraziski has spoken out to the

645
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 16: media about what he and his stepdaughter found or witnessed.

646
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 16: The following information has been reported as fact by Michael Gabrazski.

647
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 16: Claim number one, Gabraziski's stepdaughter Cecilia, discovered the body of

648
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 16: Rachel Marin in a drainage tunnel. Claim number two. Rachel

649
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 16: Marin was lying on her back, fully naked, and she

650
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 16: had brutal head trauma. It looked like her head had

651
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 16: been smashed with a rock. Claim number three. There was

652
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 16: a fifteen to twenty foot blood trail, so it looked

653
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 16: like she had been beaten and dragged into position claim

654
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 16: number four, the right side of her face was gone,

655
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 16: and claim number five, it looked like the killer was

656
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 16: trying to erase her identity.

657
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,919
Speaker 1: Okay, that's what we know right now. Based on that.

658
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall weigh in.

659
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 6: Well in this case, it's here's my thought about this.

660
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 6: This seems like a serial killer's first kill. And the

661
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 6: reason I say that is that it is so crude.

662
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 6: The weapon is crude.

663
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: It's a rock.

664
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 6: You know, a serial killers gained sophistication, or even if

665
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 6: it was a domestic somebody would have thought ahead a

666
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 6: little bit better, would have had access to a weapon,

667
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 6: would have maybe shot or maybe strangled. But in this case,

668
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 6: the weapon appears to be a rock. And that tells

669
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 6: me that this perpetrator is not only desperate to kill,

670
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 6: but that he or she, most likely he is an

671
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 6: area that's both secluded, but women who are on their

672
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 6: own tend to traverse this path, and that the m

673
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 6: in terms of killing and the blunt force trauma is

674
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 6: that the infliction of pain in and of itself is

675
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 6: incredibly sexually exciting. And you know, I talk about this

676
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 6: all the time that with serial killers, the infliction of

677
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 6: cruelty and pain, it enhances their sexual arousals. So the

678
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 6: fact that she was found unclothed in a pool of

679
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 6: blood tells me that there could have been a sexual assault,

680
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 6: but not the type of penetration or something that we

681
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 6: might think of in terms of abnormal sex. But somebody

682
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 6: who inflicted cruelty, bashed in her face, did what he

683
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 6: wanted with the body, and then masturbated on her or

684
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 6: masturbated somewhere else so that semen might never be found.

685
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, hold on, Yeah, I just want to say that

686
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: everything Jackie's waving a sign of me that what Michael

687
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: g has said has not been confirmed, but nobody's denied

688
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: it either. Who is this jumping and is it Ron

689
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: or Tony? Please do guys. Ron Matman, former homicide undercover

690
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: narcotics sheriff and author of Silent Blue Tears, go ahead, Ron, please.

691
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 10: I think DNA is going to be really critical in

692
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,800
Speaker 10: this case, and I think what I would like to know,

693
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 10: and I've already read one report that boyfriend has voluntarily

694
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 10: given up his DNA. That's a good sign, but I

695
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 10: would really, I would really want to delve into doing

696
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 10: search warms on all of my potential suspects or people

697
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 10: of interest to get their DNA again to exclude or

698
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 10: develop them, because you know there's going to be trace

699
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 10: evidence in they if that person drove there in their cars,

700
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 10: for example. And I would love to get search warrants

701
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 10: again for people's cars that are people of interest or

702
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 10: suspects to see if you can develop any kind of

703
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 10: trace evidence again going back to that principle of transferring

704
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 10: some evidence where you're going to take something with you

705
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 10: from the scene or you're going to leave something there.

706
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 10: So DNA is going to be critical.

707
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 6: Nancy, if I could jump in about that, sure, go ahead.

708
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 6: Whoever did this has been is a lurker. He's been

709
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 6: lurking along that trail looking for just the right victim

710
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 6: at just the right time, just the right time of

711
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 6: day or night. So this is a man who has

712
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 6: been going past the ranger station, has maybe been talking

713
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 6: to women. I'm sure somebody who's been on that trail

714
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:18,879
Speaker 6: has seen a strange guy.

715
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: You know.

716
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 6: We think of this crime as you know, initiating at

717
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 6: the point of the discovery of the body or whenever

718
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 6: this poor victim was, her face was fashioned. But there

719
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 6: has been weeks or even months leading up to this

720
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 6: crime where the purp has been working up his courage.

721
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 6: Where has he been, who has he been talking to,

722
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 6: what car has he been driving. I mean he's been

723
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 6: lead some not just a footprint in terms of you know, DNA,

724
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 6: but in terms of who he's been approaching, trying to

725
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 6: work up his courage, and then he didn't have the courage,

726
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 6: and then he retreated.

727
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: To Jessica Gareth, chief of the Special Victim's Family Violence

728
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: Unit at Prince Georgie's County, what do you think, Jessica.

729
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 7: I, well, I do think it's good sign of boyfriend

730
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 7: to his DNA would of course, you know, he could

731
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 7: just be doing that to try to throw investigators off

732
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 7: of the sense. You know, in this case, I think

733
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 7: it's a good idea to get DNA from everybody to

734
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 7: not only eliminate suspects, for if this tracker and his

735
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 7: stepdaughter did you know, potentially touch the body, you would

736
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 7: want to be able to eliminate them from the scene,

737
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 7: but also to potentially determine whether or not you know,

738
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 7: he is involved at this point, Nancy, you know, it's

739
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 7: a really tough call. My gut tells me that this

740
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 7: could be the work of somebody who did not know

741
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 7: this victim. I think it has so many similarities to

742
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 7: the other women that we've seen who were killed by strangers,

743
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 7: by potential serial killers, that I think that it could

744
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,479
Speaker 7: possibly go in that direction. But I had never cease

745
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,319
Speaker 7: to be surprised when people are are murdered by people

746
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 7: who are supposed to supposed to love them as well.

747
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 7: So I think it just remains to be seen.

748
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: Gentleman. Of course, we can't justman join me, chief amity reporter,

749
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: dealimil dot com. We can't ignore that the boyfriend just

750
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 1: made them social media couple. They announced it four days

751
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: before she's dead. And he's got a rap sheet, I

752
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: believe off the top of my head, I remember fourteen

753
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: arrest since twenty fourteen that said jump in jan.

754
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I was YouTube. There were sure he's

755
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 5: come forward, he's offered his DNA a good sign, but

756
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 5: you know we just mentioned it.

757
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: He could be.

758
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 5: Doing this to try and throw a police office cent

759
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 5: and this rap sheet problematic. Fourteen arrests, we've got drug charges, assault,

760
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 5: refusing arrest. They only just became Facebook official. They've been

761
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 5: dating for a handful of weeks in addition to giving

762
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 5: police his DNA. This boyfriend, his name is Richard Tobin.

763
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 5: He's ten years younger than Rachel. By the way, he

764
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 5: posts on social media saying, I know what everybody might think,

765
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 5: but I promise I didn't do any thing.

766
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 7: To hurt her.

767
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 5: I have a past, but I would never hurt Rachel.

768
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 5: Now that's kind of an interesting approach, right we at

769
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 5: this stage, I don't even think her body had been

770
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 5: found when he made this post. It was a kind

771
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 5: of curious way to respond to some of the suspicion

772
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 5: that was surrounding him. Now we don't know much about

773
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 5: their relationship from Rachel's side of things. We haven't really

774
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 5: heard much from her sister, Rebecca, who had been appealing

775
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 5: for information. They now are kind of battening down the

776
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 5: hatches and running everything through an attorney and a family spokesperson,

777
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 5: which is, you know, the kind of arguably sensible thing

778
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 5: to do when the investigation is as crucial as it

779
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 5: is right now. But aside from what he has said

780
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 5: about himself, there isn't a huge amount that we know

781
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,640
Speaker 5: about this guy or the relationship. He says it was good.

782
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 5: We don't know that for sure.

783
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: We wait as just as sun fouls. If you know

784
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: or even I think you know something regarding the brutal

785
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: murderer and what many people believe to be the sex

786
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 1: assault of Rachel Moore. And remember she's got five little children,

787
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 1: two boys, three girls. Mommy's not coming home for them.

788
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: Please dial one eight eight eight five four zero eight

789
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: four seven seven repeat eight eight eight five four zero

790
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 1: eight four seven seven. Goodbye friend,