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Speaker 1: Body does. But Joseph's gotten more. Lizzie Borden took an axe.

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Speaker 1: She gave her mother forty wax. When she saw what

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Speaker 1: she had done, she gave her father forty one. My friends,

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Speaker 1: that's a lie. That's inaccurate. I don't know who did

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Speaker 1: the computation on that in order to create that Wow

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Speaker 1: children's rhyme nursery rhyme. Though they did create it, it's

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Speaker 1: inaccurate numerically and also from a forensic assessment perspective as well.

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Speaker 1: As I sit here, I have the autopsy reports of

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Speaker 1: both Abby and Andrew Borden, who back in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: two were in fact killed with what appears to have

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Speaker 1: been a hatchet, and their bodies were found in their home,

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Speaker 1: one on the second floor that would be Abbey, and

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Speaker 1: one in the parlor reclined on a sofa that would

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Speaker 1: be Andrew. But since that date, back in eighteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and thirty three years ago, mystery still abounds.

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Speaker 1: Coming to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave.

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Speaker 1: I approached you about this case for a couple of reasons. One,

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Speaker 1: I've told you these deaths occurred in August of eighteen

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Speaker 1: ninety two, you know, kind of peeling back the history

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Speaker 1: a little bit from a forensics perspective and going in

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Speaker 1: and kind of taking a look at the autopsy reports

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Speaker 1: of Andrew and Abby Borden. But also I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: doing this as a favor. Did you know that out

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Speaker 1: of all of the cases that are out there that

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Speaker 1: people have approached me about relative to bodybags, this is

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Speaker 1: the number one case that they want to be over. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I know about as much regarding this case as

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Speaker 1: the average person. Now, I know that there are huge

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Speaker 1: Borden followers out there. I didn't know there was such

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Speaker 1: a thing, but apparently there are such a vast number.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know I was looking through I couldn't.

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Speaker 1: I lost count after a while of all the books

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Speaker 1: that have been written about this event that took place

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Speaker 1: in Falls River, Massachusetts. Honestly, I didn't even know where

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Speaker 1: this town was. It's kind of, or was kind of

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Speaker 1: a little village. It's actually closer to the shore than

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Speaker 1: it is some metropolitan area. I think that roughly it's

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Speaker 1: about forty to fifty miles due south of Boston and

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Speaker 1: beautiful area. You hear people go on and on about

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Speaker 1: it and the house to this date, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that many of our listeners here have visited this site.

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Speaker 1: I for one have not. I've also never been to Salem, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: I've never been to see Plymouth Rock. So I've got

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Speaker 1: I've got some traveling to do. I need to go

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Speaker 1: do that. I'm fascinated also in Massachusetts about the executions

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Speaker 1: in Salem witch trial, because I'd like to visit those

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Speaker 1: spots as well. There's some very interesting stories surrounding those cases.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we can get to that, say around Halloween. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, let's go and mark that in our.

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Speaker 2: I think we need to plant a road. We need a.

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Speaker 1: Body bags body bags on the road.

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Speaker 2: The problem with that, man, I will tell you.

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Speaker 3: I thought that the nurser you mentioned, the child nursery

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Speaker 3: rhyme whatever it was, the Lizzie Bourdon rhyme. I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 3: I know there was a murder that occurred too, double homicide.

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Speaker 3: And you know Lizzie Borden took an axe. Okay, gotcha.

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Speaker 3: That's actually maybe not even true, because Lizzie Borden was

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Speaker 3: charged with the crime. And we'll get into this in

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Speaker 3: just a minute. But when Joe brought this up, he said,

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Speaker 3: did you know they had the skulls in the courtroom

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Speaker 3: in eighteen ninety two? They had skulls in the courtroom? No, Joe,

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Speaker 3: that does not even sound right listen.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's that's kind of one of the

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Speaker 1: things that made this, uh, that drew my interest. I'd

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Speaker 1: seen the images of the skull before, okay, I and

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Speaker 1: they're they're quite striking from an evidentiary standpoint. And no,

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Speaker 1: these are not models.

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Speaker 3: These are the actual skulls they Andrew and Abby's domes

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Speaker 3: without skin.

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Speaker 2: Here you go. How did they even get them down

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Speaker 2: into that form? Do they didn't? Did they boil them?

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Speaker 1: And no, no, no, they probably did. And kind of let

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Speaker 1: me tell you what happens now. I will go ahead

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Speaker 1: and make a confession. I think I've said it before,

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Speaker 1: but for those that are new and haven't heard me

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Speaker 1: say this before, I have, in fact decapitated bodies. Before

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Speaker 1: you do it in the morgue, it does happen, and

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Speaker 1: there are a number of reasons why you do it.

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Speaker 1: First off, if you have severely decomposed bodies, you go

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Speaker 1: in and you you can actually decapitate the body in

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Speaker 1: order to work with the jaws. Uh, that has happened.

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Speaker 1: I've decapitated remains and our heads that were still partially attached,

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Speaker 1: and you take them to a forensic anthropologist. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: got actually pulled over in my corner's car one time

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Speaker 1: driving at a high speed. Ever told you the story? Y, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this day.

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Speaker 2: I was hoping you weren't gonna say this, but you

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Speaker 2: need to tell it now. Yeah, I gotta tell it.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, we had a victim that came in

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Speaker 1: and we were doing we were doing the autopsy, and

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Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist at the time said, I was very

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Speaker 1: young and young and dumb as you are, and uh,

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Speaker 1: or as I was, and still I still got a

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Speaker 1: little dumbness that goes along with me to this day.

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Speaker 1: But the doctor who I was deathly afraid of. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're twenty three years old and there's

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Speaker 1: a doctor talking to you and here's your boss, it's like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, coming from the burning bush, you're going to

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Speaker 1: do it, you know. And he said listen, he says,

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Speaker 1: you got to get dry ice. We're going to take

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Speaker 1: this guy's head off, you're going to do it. I

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Speaker 1: took it off in between the C one and the

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Speaker 1: C two Vertebra, and we're going to place it in

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Speaker 1: dry ice inside of a star from cooler and with

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Speaker 1: all speed. You're going to drive to Baton Rouge to

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Speaker 1: the Faces Lab at the Anthropology Anthropology Lab there Faces

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Speaker 1: Lab at LSU And I took him. I took it

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Speaker 1: at his word. And here I am, and I'm speeding

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Speaker 1: down it in westbound out of New Orleans and I'm

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Speaker 1: headed toward toward Baton Rouge across the what's called the

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Speaker 1: Bond Carry Spillway, which is this elevated portion of it

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Speaker 1: that goes over the most further portion of Lake Ponta Train.

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Speaker 1: It's not the causeway, nothing long bridge. It's at the

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Speaker 1: far west end. It separates what's called Lake Pontratrain. There's

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Speaker 1: another lake there called Lake Marapa, and it goes on

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Speaker 1: for and look, State troopers, as everybody knows, they set

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Speaker 1: up in strategic locations to nail you, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're going to high speed, particularly on elevated bridges where

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Speaker 1: they can't set up radar. And man, I had my

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Speaker 1: foot in it, had my little blue light going on

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Speaker 1: my dashboard. Back then, you could plug it in a

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Speaker 1: cigarette lighter. And when I hit the end of that

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Speaker 1: bridge and came down onto Terra Firma, there he was.

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Speaker 1: He was sitting there, and my lord, even though I

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Speaker 1: had a blue light going, he pulled in right behind me.

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Speaker 1: And he came stomping out of that car. And if

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Speaker 1: you've ever seen a Louisiana State trooper, they've got the

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Speaker 1: most magnificent uniforms. They're blue with gold piping. They got

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Speaker 1: the smokey the bear hat, and their badge is shaped

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Speaker 1: like the State of Louisiana. And they all wear pat

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Speaker 1: and leather shoes, and I swear some of them have

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Speaker 1: clicks on the heels. Because you can hear them walking

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Speaker 1: towards you. It sounds like drill sardant and uh. He

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Speaker 1: came up and he was, you know, what the hell

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Just going on and on and and

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Speaker 1: I said, I pulled out my badge, and he said

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Speaker 1: something like you better have a good reason. And I

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Speaker 1: pointed to the star from cooler and I opened the

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Speaker 1: lid and he looked in. He said, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: an escort, and off we go. He literally drove me on.

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Speaker 1: I followed him onto the campus of LSU with a

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Speaker 1: head in my front seat and uh, you know, walked

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Speaker 1: into the building. My dear friend uh uh uh was

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Speaker 1: the was the forensic anthropologist there, Mary Manheut. I recommend

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Speaker 1: anybody by the way that it's not familiar with Mary's work.

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Speaker 1: She's one of the first people to ever digitize the

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Speaker 1: human skull. And uh she's since retired, but she's written

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Speaker 1: a pretty cool series of books called The Bone Lady.

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Speaker 1: And she is a real deal. I've worked, I've sweated,

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Speaker 1: sweated in the sun with her. I've you know, we've

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Speaker 1: excavated graves together or bare and she is she's a

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Speaker 1: real gym. So if you get a chance to check

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Speaker 1: her out. But yeah, that's my story of of of

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Speaker 1: heads and what we you know, what we can do

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Speaker 1: with them. And she wound up creating a cast of

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Speaker 1: the skull and plus doing a very thorough examination. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I said something almost as a throwaway line, you said

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Speaker 3: that you had to take it to the faces lab

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Speaker 3: at l s U.

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Speaker 2: What is the faces lab?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the faces Lab. Literally it is I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the acronymic. It's like forensic anthropological. I can't it's like

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Speaker 1: it has to do. They were the first lab anthropological

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Speaker 1: lab that really entered onto the stage doing these these

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Speaker 1: clay modelings, and this is back in the eighties with skulls,

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Speaker 1: and they eventually wound up doing digital reconstructions. They were

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Speaker 1: the first people to kind of step off into this region.

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Speaker 1: And now it's kind of row you know, you see

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Speaker 1: it all the time, but they were on the cutting

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Speaker 1: edge back then. And fantastic facility by the way, and

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Speaker 1: just really enjoyed my time working with them. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is called the Faces Lab. Look it up for

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Speaker 1: yourself at LSU, and really good people there, and they've

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Speaker 1: had some really bright individuals that have come through that program.

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Speaker 1: You hear a lot about the Body Farm and as

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Speaker 1: well you should because they're quite quite notable, but the

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Speaker 1: Faces Lab has produced quite a number of great practitioners

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Speaker 1: out there as well. And they were doing and they

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Speaker 1: still do archaeological research as well. And as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, my friend Mary and I dig this. She

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Speaker 1: was the lead on site forensic anthropologists for the recovery

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Speaker 1: of the CSS Huntley, which was in I think Charleston Harbor.

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Speaker 1: It was the first submarine that was used during the

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Speaker 1: Civil War and there were I think close to twenty

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Speaker 1: guys that went down in this and she was part

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Speaker 1: of the body recovery of that. These bodies have been

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Speaker 1: encapsulated in this metal tube, buried down in the in

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Speaker 1: the mud there in Charleston Harbor, and you know, they

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Speaker 1: they brought it back to life and she did the

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Speaker 1: excavation on that. So and there was a big documentary

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Speaker 1: creative about that. But that's kind of work that she's

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Speaker 1: done over the years. So, you know, we everybody, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you can include this in your professionists as

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Speaker 1: as well, Dave. You know, we all, you know, stand

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Speaker 1: on the shoulders of giants. You know, those individuals that

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Speaker 1: took time to teach us, you know, when we were

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Speaker 1: young and they didn't have to. And I know a

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Speaker 1: lot that we do is it's self learning, you know,

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Speaker 1: through failure and repeat and all that stuff. But there

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Speaker 1: are those people that really gave us insight. And the

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Speaker 1: trick is when you're young or you're bright enough to

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Speaker 1: listen to advice. And I had a couple of flashes

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Speaker 1: of moments where I showed some level of intelligence where

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Speaker 1: I actually held onto things. And there's stuff that Mary

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Speaker 1: said way back then that I still teach in class

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Speaker 1: to this day. And I've been at this for actually

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Speaker 1: my career. I was just thinking, I was telling a

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Speaker 1: group that we were speaking to today, I was my

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Speaker 1: career I'm in combined with practice in the field and academia.

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Speaker 1: I'm in my forty first year now. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: been it's been an ongoing process, to say the least.

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Speaker 1: You know, you just keep on grinding. You just keep

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Speaker 1: on grinding, man, And you know me, I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't ever stop. So we'll see how long. We'll see

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Speaker 1: how long the train goes. But yeah, okay, well but

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Speaker 1: I digress. I'm glad. I'm glad you let me tell

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Speaker 1: that story because it always it's gruesome. But it also

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Speaker 1: makes me reflective and think about, you know, those times

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Speaker 1: that I spent in the morning and everything that I

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Speaker 1: learned from that. First off, I don't speed on the

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Speaker 1: Bond Carry spillway anymore, and uh, because I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I'd have as much luck now. Uh. My wife

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Speaker 1: gets on to me because I go so slow. Now drive,

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Speaker 1: I drive like a popaul. Uh because I'm in I'm

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Speaker 1: in no rush to get anywhere anymore. Don't, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to get anywhere fast.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: But with Andrew and Abbey Borden's skulls, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really kind of attracted me, you know,

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Speaker 1: to the idea of covering this because this is such

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Speaker 1: a it's such an oddity, it's such an oddity that

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Speaker 1: these skulls would have been utilized in the midst of

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Speaker 1: this horrific case that occurred up there again one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three years ago. The tribal was one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty two years ago, that they would be used

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Speaker 1: as tools of demonstration, that they would be displayed not

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Speaker 1: just for the gallery, not just for the judge, and

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Speaker 1: not just for the jury, but also for Lizzie herself,

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Speaker 1: who upon seeing them, fainted in co the skulls therein

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Speaker 1: rest the evidence. They rest the evidence of the trauma

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Speaker 1: that was visited upon these folks. And you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple in their sixties. Andrew Borden was wealthy, well known

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Speaker 1: to be wealthy, and he was somewhat of a tight wad.

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Speaker 2: It's funny that he was well known to be wealthy.

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Speaker 3: He was. He owned a lot of properties, owned a

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Speaker 3: number of factories, owned a number of rental properties. He

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Speaker 3: was president of the Union Savings Bank and was known

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Speaker 3: and they lived in Fall River, mass Now it's interesting

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Speaker 3: that Fall River was an upscale neighborhood. However, the more

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Speaker 3: wealthy families in town had moved further away from the factories.

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Speaker 3: And Andrew Bordon said, now this is good enough, but

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Speaker 3: a little side to give you an idea of the

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Speaker 3: tightwad that he was at that point in time. In

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Speaker 3: eighteen nineties, most wealthy families had indoor plumbing. It was

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Speaker 3: common for the bigger homes in the nicer neighborhoods to

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Speaker 3: have plumbing, indoors, indoor plumbing. They didn't have it. Andrew

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Speaker 3: just couldn't be bothered with that, that it was an expense.

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Speaker 3: He just didn't want so it and money actually became

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Speaker 3: a real issue within the family dynamic between Lizzie and

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Speaker 3: her older sister, And you know I mentioned this to

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Speaker 3: you earlier in the nursery rhyme. Lizzie Borden took an

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Speaker 3: action and gave her mother forty wax. It wasn't her

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Speaker 3: mother and her stepmother, Abby's. Lizzie's mom died three years

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Speaker 3: after she was born. Her mother Sarah died in eighteen

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Speaker 3: sixty three and Andrew Borden remarried. He married Abby three

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Speaker 3: years later, and when Lizzie was about six years old

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Speaker 3: and her older sister was fifteen, and so there's that

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Speaker 3: dynamic there of the stepmother and the father and a

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Speaker 3: bit of jealousy between the girls and the stepmom. Lizzie

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Speaker 3: apparently never called Abby anything other than missus Borden Iszarre. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, we found or it is because we found

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Speaker 3: that out from They had a maid. She was from

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Speaker 3: Ireland and she was about twenty five years old at

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Speaker 3: the and had been with the family for a number

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Speaker 3: of years. The reason she's important is because she's a

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Speaker 3: witness to what was taking place in the home before, during,

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Speaker 3: and after. But she's the one that told us about

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Speaker 3: that Lizzie called Abby missus Borden. Lizzie's older sister, Emma,

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Speaker 3: and Lizzie never ate with the Boardens. They did not

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Speaker 3: eat dinner together. They didn't eat meals together, and that

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Speaker 3: was a big part of life in the eighteen nineties

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Speaker 3: when you lived inder the same roof. You know, they

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Speaker 3: didn't have radio and TV and things like that. They

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Speaker 3: ate and they would gather together around the table and

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Speaker 3: they would eat not on the boarding household. The girls

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Speaker 3: would not eat at the same table with that.

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Speaker 1: These were women that first off, they were outside of

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Speaker 1: the societal norms at this point because they were plus

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Speaker 1: thirty plus, they were unmarried, and they were living at

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Speaker 1: home with their with their father, right, and they were

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Speaker 1: like completely dependent upon Hilm and his wealth in order

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Speaker 1: to get by, correct.

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Speaker 3: And they were both and you're dead on and I

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Speaker 3: go ahead, and I'll mention this now because I really

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Speaker 3: want to get into the forensics of this show. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: just to give you an idea here, friends, Lizzie and

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Speaker 3: Emma Borden, they were they were unmarried, and they were

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Speaker 3: engaged around the house. They were not looking for a

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Speaker 3: way out. They both had chores. They're adult women and

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Speaker 3: they have chores. Lizzie is thirty two, Emma is thirty

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Speaker 3: is forty one, Okay, they're not young women, and yet

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Speaker 3: they still had daily chores. And that actually comes into

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Speaker 3: play here. In the months leading up to the murders,

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Speaker 3: Emma and Lizzie actually left for an extended period of time.

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Speaker 3: Andrew Borden decided to kill a bunch of pigeons that

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Speaker 3: were out in the backyard. He killed them with an axe,

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Speaker 3: and he did it in May of eighteen ninety two.

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Speaker 3: The reason he killed the pigeons because they were drawing

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Speaker 3: the attention of young boys who were coming by to

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Speaker 3: shoot them, to hunt them the pigeons, you know, trying

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Speaker 3: to shoot them, I guess. So rather than have these

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Speaker 3: kids around their yard shooting whatever guns they had or

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Speaker 3: whatever weapons they used in the eighteen nineties as children,

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Speaker 3: he killed the pigeons. Well, Lizzie had just spent time

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Speaker 3: building hutches for them, if that's what you call it,

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Speaker 3: yeah coop, yeah, coop for the She had built a

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Speaker 3: coop to house these pigeons to take care of them.

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Speaker 3: So she gets the things built and Andrew goes out

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Speaker 3: and kills all of them. Well, prior to that happening,

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Speaker 3: Emma and Lizzie had been arguing with their father because

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Speaker 3: he kept giving away property to Abby's family, their stepmother's family.

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Speaker 3: Now it isn't like they Lizzie and Emma always thought

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Speaker 3: Abby was a gold digger, but Joe, they were married

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Speaker 3: for a long time. They've been married twenty nine years

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Speaker 3: at this point. Okay, Abby was there for again three

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Speaker 3: decades and so Andrew's seventy years old and he's giving

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Speaker 3: away property to her family, and Lizzie and Emma got mad,

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Speaker 3: and they actually fought over a house and demanded since

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Speaker 3: dad gave Abby's sister this house a rental property, the girls,

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Speaker 3: Lizzie and Emma demanded a house, demanded Andrew give them

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Speaker 3: their old home place, so they place they lived with

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Speaker 3: their mother because when Andrew remarried, Abby wouldn't live in

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Speaker 3: that house, so he built a different house, bought a

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Speaker 3: different house, and that other house became a rental so

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Speaker 3: Andrew sold that original home to Lizzie and Emma in

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Speaker 3: eighteen ninety two, he sold it to him for a dollar.

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Speaker 3: After the pigeon thing happened, Emma and Lizzie left. They

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Speaker 3: went to New Bedford and they stayed gone for weeks

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Speaker 3: because of what had happened with the pigeons and everything else.

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Speaker 3: And when they returned the week of the murders, Lizzie

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Speaker 3: didn't go to the house. Emma did. Lizzie stayed in

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Speaker 3: the boarding house for four days. She couldn't bring herself

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Speaker 3: to go to that house. She was so mad about

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Speaker 3: those pigeons, so that's kind of the same. By the way,

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Speaker 3: they ended up reselling the house back to Andrew. The

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Speaker 3: house they bought for a dollar, they sold it back

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Speaker 3: to him for five grand, and in eighteen ninety two

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Speaker 3: dollars today it would be about one hundred and seventy

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Speaker 3: five thousand dollars. So Andrew gave them one hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventy five thousand dollars basically in today's money. That was

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Speaker 3: what was going on in this family dynamic at the

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Speaker 3: time of these murders. Okay, it was not a happy

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Speaker 3: household and the girls had just come back, so well,

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Speaker 3: you're the women had just come back.

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Speaker 1: The women, Yeah, absolutely, you think about what would be

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Speaker 1: the motivation, because Dave, this is not some kind of

358
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Speaker 1: like this is not a passive act. You know, this

359
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: isn't like a one off, you know, like punch in

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Speaker 1: the nose. It's not a single gunshot woman. Now, we

361
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Speaker 1: were kind of making light of the nursery rhyme, Yeah,

362
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Speaker 1: which it kind of is a nurser rhyme or at

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Speaker 1: least you know, kids are going to skip rope to

364
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Speaker 1: it maybe, but this is not a passive act. This

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Speaker 1: these injuries that both of these individuals sustained were so

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Speaker 1: gruesome that when you think about the force of and

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Speaker 1: this is not you know, in the nursing nursery rhyme

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Speaker 1: they use the word acts. It seems as though that

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Speaker 1: this is more akin to a hatchet, you know, which

370
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Speaker 1: if you've never seen a hatchet, hatchet like a smaller

371
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Speaker 1: version of an axe. And many times with hatchet you

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Speaker 1: can actually flip them over and they have a blunt

373
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Speaker 1: a blunt side to them that you can use to

374
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Speaker 1: hammer with. And also if you look on the underside

375
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Speaker 1: of the blade of a hatchet, it's got little a

376
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Speaker 1: little curved out area there that you can use as

377
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Speaker 1: a nail puller, you know, because you know with claw

378
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Speaker 1: hammer we use the claw to pull nails with, right, Well,

379
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Speaker 1: that feature exists on many hatchets where you, yeah, you

380
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Speaker 1: can slide it under there and pull out meals with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's even I've got one, Joe, it's more.

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a multi I guess, I don't want to

383
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Speaker 1: say multi tool, but it has multiple utility. And people

384
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 1: have carried hatchets forever, you know, you you even think

385
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 1: about Native Americans carrying tomahawks. Now, I don't know the

386
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: utility of a tomahawk. But you know, frontiersmen carried carried hatchets.

387
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: There's a lot to be said for the portability of

388
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: it because you can you can take down small trees

389
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Speaker 1: with it. You could build something, you know, if you

390
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Speaker 1: wanted to to create, you know, some kind of shelter,

391
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. It's not as cumbersome as an axe.

392
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Speaker 1: And it takes a bit more work to utilize a

393
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Speaker 1: hatchet than it does in acts.

394
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Speaker 3: But so.

395
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Speaker 1: These these insults that both these individuals sustained are rather

396
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: gruesome because you have you have the weight. Just think

397
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: about this now, it's not just the blade that's doing

398
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: the damage here. If you think about the way a

399
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: hatchet is shaped, it's got that kind of robust blunted

400
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: back to it again like a hammerhead. So as you're

401
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: driving this thing through the air and you're targeting, say

402
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: someone's face, like in the case of Andrew Borden, you

403
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: have the added mass of the backside of that hatchet

404
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: driving downward and it's transferring that energy into this space.

405
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: So not only and this is obvious, you know when

406
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,640
Speaker 1: you take a look at these skulls, this is obvious

407
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: that these are not just, and even the pathologists make

408
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: or the doctor makes note of this. These are not

409
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: just These are not just in sized injuries, which he

410
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: calls them in sized injuries. You've also got crushing injuries too.

411
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: So the fact the devastating blows that both these individuals

412
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: sustained Andrews are primarily anterior, which means to his face

413
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, the facial bones. It's his

414
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: I think the left side his facial bones, like if

415
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: you look at like his eye sockets for instance, particularly

416
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: the lower to left is almost completely decimated. The structures

417
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: within his cheeks are crushed as well. So when I've

418
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: given this some thought, David, you know that. Can you

419
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: imagine when you're the pro sector, the pathologists in this

420
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 1: particular case, or the doctor that's doing the autopsies. There

421
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: were two doctors that were both assisting. I can get

422
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: into that because the way their bodies are treated afterwards.

423
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Speaker 1: It's kind of interesting as well. You're concluding this thing,

424
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Speaker 1: and there's representative from the DA's office there too. If

425
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, I wonder if the DA, in consultation

426
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Speaker 1: with the doctor said, hey, you know what, these are

427
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: really gruesome. These injuries are so profound, I need a

428
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: demonstrative in court. Can is it possible? Is it possible

429
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: to to capitate these bodies and display them in court?

430
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: And I'm sure the doctor said, yeah, sure. Remember this.

431
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: Even though this is we think of Massachusetts being very

432
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: sophisticated and that sort of thing, you know, old money

433
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: and all that, there's still rural people. They know what

434
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: it means to render down a hog. And you know,

435
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: part of rendering down a hog is boiling of a hog.

436
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: And you know, they actually say that humans are not

437
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: too dissimilar in that sense. As a matter of fact,

438
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: medical students they used to use hog's feet in order

439
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: to practice sutrain, So there's utility in this sort of thing.

440
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: So yet I think probably what happened is they decapitated

441
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: these bodies and began to render them down. That would

442
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: be I guess you would say, well, the shortest route

443
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: would be just to take instruments and kind of carved

444
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: the flesh off of them. Well, no, it wouldn't be.

445
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: And this is why even modern anthropologists do this, because

446
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: modern anthropologists actually rendered down bodies. We had two boilers

447
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: at the mme's office in Atlanta in the anthropology lab

448
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: where you could take the limbs and put them in

449
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: there and render them down. One of things you avoid

450
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: from an evidentiary standpoint when you begin to render down

451
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: bone and you don't use sharp instruments, is that sharp

452
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: instrument is not coming in contact with a bone. So

453
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: if you think about a bone from the perspective, from

454
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: a culinary perspective, if you think about putting, say a roast,

455
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: a bone in roast in a crock pot, the roast

456
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: becomes very tender, and what happens to it if there's

457
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: a bone there, It falls away from the bone and

458
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: you're left with the bone and then the tissue is

459
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,239
Speaker 1: sitting there. The principle is the same thing. So if

460
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: you render down this element, this anatomical element, the tissue

461
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: literally falls away and you can carefully pick up that bone. Now,

462
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: the problem is is that there's only one well, well,

463
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: let's just think about Andrew okay, his facial bones, and

464
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: it's kind of if you touch your left eye at

465
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: the bottom of the orbit, okay, your eye socket, and

466
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: you kind of go back. This thing is like really fragmented.

467
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: So when you're rendering down something like this and you're

468
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: trying to assess it, for evidentiary value. Maybe you're looking

469
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: at tool marks and this sort of things, which is

470
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: one of the things they would have been doing, not

471
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: in the same way we do today, but in their

472
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: own way. It would be really easy to lose these

473
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: little bits and pieces because it's kind of like if

474
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: you had a jigsaw puzzle that's covered in tissue and

475
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: you want to strip away the tissue so that you

476
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: can put together the jigsaw puzzle, you have to reassemble it.

477
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: And look, let's face it, they wanted a demonstrative for this, Dave,

478
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: because they're going to take this. They're taking this into

479
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: court so that the people of the jury in the court,

480
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 1: everybody present there could actually observe, observe what had happened

481
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: to these people. And what a first off, it's very prejudicial,

482
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: but what a powerful, powerful tool to have at your

483
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: disposal if you're the prosecutor. Because you know, now we

484
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: can't even show you have to go through pre child now, Dave,

485
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: with bloody photographs. We've talked about this before you. They

486
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: go in in pre child. Let me just frame this

487
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: out in modern terms. They go in in pre trial,

488
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: and like all of the photographs that are going to

489
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: be shown at trial. People don't realize this. In pre

490
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: child motions, they both sides agree on what photos are

491
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: acceptable and not acceptable because they have inflammatory content in them.

492
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: The defense will say they're prejudicial because they're so gory

493
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: and over the top. Dude, we're not talking about photographs here.

494
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: We're talking about the skulls of two individuals which people

495
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: that are sitting on this jury had conversations with in life.

496
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: Now they know these people. This is not some stranger

497
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: that rolls into town and is butchered with a sharp instrument.

498
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: These are These individuals are citizens and high profile citizens.

499
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: So I know, I understand scientific value in this, and

500
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: you're trying to demonstrate the mechanics of this instrument that

501
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: was used, how extensive it is, but it's highly prejudicial.

502
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Can you imagine if they tried to do this today. Oh,

503
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: they render down a couple of skulls and bring them

504
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: into the courtroom and say, yeah, these are our victims. Here,

505
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: these are our victims. You know you think that photos

506
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: are over the top, My lord, you're actually bringing in

507
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: anatomical elements of the victims. People would be screaming from

508
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: the rooftops nowadays, if something like this was done, but

509
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: it was done, and in spite of those being brought

510
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: in and demonstrated before the court, they still found Lizzie

511
00:32:54,560 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: Borden not guilty. Dave had mentioned earlier that mister Borden

512
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: didn't have indoor plumbing. Now, back then, I think modern

513
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: refrigeration would have been viewed as almost magical. Certainly, I

514
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: think that ice boxes and my grandmother still referred to

515
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: her refrigerator as an ice box or a thing, and

516
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: you know, that's where the iceman would come by and

517
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: deliver the blocks of ice that would go into a

518
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: special area in your ice box, and you could store

519
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: meats and that sort of thing. But to think that

520
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: you would have a walk in refrigerator like we do

521
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: now in Morgues is kind of It would have been

522
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: something that would have been unheard of at this point

523
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: in time. So in Fall River they had a location

524
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: that dig this from if you like history, this is

525
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. They had an area in their local

526
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: cemetery and the cemetery is actually called Oak Grove Cemetery,

527
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: still there today, and there's like a crypt. It's built

528
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: into the ground and it's a walk in kind of

529
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: crypt that you know, I don't know if the corner

530
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: or whoever it was had access to it had keys,

531
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: you know, the city fathers that kept control over this

532
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And the reason they had a crypt

533
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: like this out there was not for burial, it was

534
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: for storage of bodies. Here's why I was fascinated by this.

535
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: During the wintertime up there in Massachusetts, the ground was

536
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: so hard that if someone died, you couldn't dig a

537
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: hole to stick them in. So what they would do

538
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: if people died in the winter months, they would take

539
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: these bodies and they would store them in this crypt,

540
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: and after the thaw began, they'd send out a team

541
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 1: of people and they would begin to dig graves and

542
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: they could, you know, send people to their eternal rest.

543
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: And it was in this such facility that Andrew and

544
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: Abby were kept. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

545
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: body by