1
00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan.

2
00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,639
Speaker 2: To be free from pain, I think that many of

3
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 2: us seek that status in our life, particularly as you

4
00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,480
Speaker 2: get older. You want to be free from pain. And

5
00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 2: one of the ways we do that in the world

6
00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:38,800
Speaker 2: in which we endwell is through medicine. And you know,

7
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,879
Speaker 2: medicine is in fact a it's a miracle on many levels.

8
00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,159
Speaker 1: What it can do.

9
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,239
Speaker 2: The drugs that we utilize for this purpose are give

10
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 2: us relief when everything else is We've reached the end.

11
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: I've got back pain, I've got neck pain, shoulder pain,

12
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,080
Speaker 2: a life lived very roughly on my part. But we

13
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,120
Speaker 2: turn to these things called anal Jesus and they relieve

14
00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,119
Speaker 2: us of pain that we suffer from. And these can

15
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 2: range from anything like an aspirin, perhaps talano, but it

16
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,840
Speaker 2: also extends into a group of drugs called opioids. And

17
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 2: unfortunately the world in which we dwell now, these opioids

18
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 2: and these substances that we turn to to relieve us

19
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 2: from pain seem to have created another kind of pain,

20
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 2: a pain that breaks the heart, a pain that is

21
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: bookended by grief. Today we're going to talk about fentyl

22
00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:54,440
Speaker 2: and the recent spike in deaths related to fentyl emphasized

23
00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 2: by three cases. My name is Joseph Scott Moore, and

24
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 2: this just bodybus Dave. I've been a pain in the

25
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,960
Speaker 2: rear end. I've been a pain in the neck, and

26
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,960
Speaker 2: sometimes you just can't get relief from either either in

27
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:17,200
Speaker 2: a metaphorical sense or in a literal sense. But pain

28
00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,480
Speaker 2: relief we need. We certainly do many times, and of

29
00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 2: course the first reaction is to either reach up in

30
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,880
Speaker 2: the medicine cabinet or go to the doctor. But unfortunately,

31
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,520
Speaker 2: we've got a big segment of our population that goes

32
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 2: to other locations to relieve pain. And I don't necessarily

33
00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,640
Speaker 2: know that it's its physical pain as much as it

34
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,160
Speaker 2: is manytimes emotional pain.

35
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 3: A lot of people self medicate psychological disorders when people

36
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 3: are going through emotional peoval that we now tend to overregulate.

37
00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's okay to feel down every

38
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 3: now and again, it's okay to feel great every now

39
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,959
Speaker 3: and again. But oftentimes we all want to feel great.

40
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,880
Speaker 3: I mean we've been everybody has been looking for the

41
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,120
Speaker 3: happy pill. When bear aspiring came out, it was a

42
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 3: happy pill. I don't know if people know this, do

43
00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 3: a little study, and you're gonna find out that they

44
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,639
Speaker 3: used to call them patent medicines. Remember the old joke

45
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,920
Speaker 3: about the patent medicine man coming through town and they'd

46
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 3: tell you whatever. And if you go back on the

47
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,600
Speaker 3: Andy Griffith Show, you'll see Aunt Bee and her friends.

48
00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,600
Speaker 3: They started buying this elixir to give you energy during

49
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,120
Speaker 3: the day while you're cleaning the house. And they ended

50
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,359
Speaker 3: up on the end that Andy comes into his house

51
00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,520
Speaker 3: and Aunt Bee's playing the piano and Clara's over there

52
00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,239
Speaker 3: in the corner and they're all taking this elixir and

53
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:26,880
Speaker 3: it was booze.

54
00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 1: It was alcohol. Yeah. Yeah, they're all pad of medicine. Yeah. Yeah.

55
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 3: If you look in the sixties, there were advertisements in

56
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,800
Speaker 3: magazines for this little green pill that was for energy.

57
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 3: It would give you a pep during the day, and

58
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,440
Speaker 3: it showed a woman. Their advertisement was built around a

59
00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:44,720
Speaker 3: woman in a skirt, like leave it to Beaver's mom vacuuming. Now,

60
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,480
Speaker 3: I grew up with a mom the vacuum had never

61
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 3: once did I see her with a dress on and

62
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 3: everything in her hair done vacuuming the floor. But it

63
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 3: looked good in a commercial. But take this little green pill,

64
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:55,800
Speaker 3: You'll have all the energy you need.

65
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, even the stones saying about it, mother's little help.

66
00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 1: You know.

67
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 2: You think about that, you go back in top and

68
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,200
Speaker 2: you think about that, and it's something that's been with us.

69
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: It's you know, they say the old adage about there's

70
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 2: nothing new under the sun, and there's not. I mean,

71
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 2: people have used things to numb themselves all along, I think,

72
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,240
Speaker 2: but there's there's kind of the specter that has risen

73
00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,000
Speaker 2: up among us with with this drug of fentanyl, which

74
00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,920
Speaker 2: is a synthetic opioid, which is if you.

75
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,200
Speaker 1: Answer our question, Joe, I got sure you said synthetic. Yeah.

76
00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 3: For those of us who are not medically inclined, the

77
00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 3: term opioid, the term well, fentanyl again being another drug.

78
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,919
Speaker 3: But we hear about the opioid crisis and it started.

79
00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,240
Speaker 3: I started hearing it with oxycon. It's called it hill

80
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,800
Speaker 3: Billy heroin, and then it, you know, becomes fentanyl. What

81
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 3: is an opioid? What is synthetic versus is there another?

82
00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 3: Is there a good type? I guess is what I'm

83
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,839
Speaker 3: after is is there a natural yeah? Found in nature?

84
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,360
Speaker 3: You know, medication that person a person could take as

85
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,159
Speaker 3: opposed to a synthetic made in a lab.

86
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, man.

87
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 2: I mean it goes all the way back to morphine,

88
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 2: you know, and morphine is derived from the poppy plant,

89
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 2: and you think about morphine naturally occurring. I always think

90
00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 2: of that scene and you know, uh in Wizard of

91
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,320
Speaker 2: Oz where you know, the witch puts everybody to sleep

92
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,840
Speaker 2: and she goes copies poppies and everybody goes to sleep.

93
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,800
Speaker 2: Then all of a sudden, the other witch shows up

94
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 2: and it starts snowing and they wake up. And to me,

95
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 2: I've always thought, wow, they everybody just got a bump

96
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,440
Speaker 2: of coke at that point in time, and then off

97
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:36,720
Speaker 2: to the.

98
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,040
Speaker 1: Off to the Yeah, they were running.

99
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 2: Running as fast as they could, trying to get to

100
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,280
Speaker 2: the Emerald City. I don't know if that's accurate, but

101
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 2: there was a lot of If you read that book

102
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,600
Speaker 2: in its original form, there's a lot of metaphor in there.

103
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:55,680
Speaker 3: So now I'm reading, I am.

104
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,120
Speaker 2: That's that's Morgan's interpretation. But you know, this goes back

105
00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 2: years and years, you know, and there's the old stories

106
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:00,839
Speaker 2: about Coca cola.

107
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 1: Can I actually say that Coca cola? I just did?

108
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:05,880
Speaker 1: It was up.

109
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go, And as a matter of fact,

110
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:15,400
Speaker 2: interesting little aside the original the original medical Examiner's office

111
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 2: where I worked in Atlanta, which sat at the back

112
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,560
Speaker 2: of the ambulance ramp for Grady Hospital, which is the

113
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,679
Speaker 2: large public hospital in Atlanta. Our address was Coca Cola Place,

114
00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 2: and right down the street, right down the street was

115
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,719
Speaker 2: where the original drug store was, and so you you could,

116
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 2: you know, they take it, take it on the draw there,

117
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 2: you know. So it was it was kind of an

118
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,359
Speaker 2: interesting Actually it turned into a sandwich shop. We go

119
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 2: get sandwiches there. But yeah, you know, we've been intertwined,

120
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:52,600
Speaker 2: intertwined in this this dependency cycle for a long time,

121
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,479
Speaker 2: and unfortunately with with fentanyl, it's kicked it up another

122
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:04,160
Speaker 2: notch because with with the introduction of illicit fentanyl, because

123
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 2: we have to back up and understand that with fentyl,

124
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 2: fentyl was created as actually an analgesic, just like any

125
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 2: other opia that's out there's a synthetic version of the

126
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,320
Speaker 2: original naturally occurring analgesic. Once you think about morphine, of

127
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 2: course you've got heroin, there's various derivatives, but when you

128
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,360
Speaker 2: think about fentanyl, it's at such a higher level. It's

129
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 2: literally it's about one hundred times more powerful than just

130
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 2: about any other drug that you can imagine. And I

131
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: think a lot of people are very confused and about

132
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 2: how it's, how it's utilized, and why is it showing up.

133
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 2: Why is this illicit form of fentanyl showing up, Because

134
00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,240
Speaker 2: in the past it's been used for like a precursor

135
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 2: to anesthesia, you know, where they get you into that warm,

136
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,600
Speaker 2: milky place, you know, before they say you're going to

137
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,720
Speaker 2: feel some the cold in your line and then I'll

138
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 2: start counting backwards. And fentanyl is, you know, kind of

139
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 2: a precursor to that. It knocks down pain. You have

140
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,960
Speaker 2: fentyl patches even which is where a lot of people

141
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,520
Speaker 2: got the idea for the abuse of fentyl, where you

142
00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 2: could take it and place it. It's a transdermal patch

143
00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,640
Speaker 2: where you place it over say, for instance, a painful

144
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 2: area and it could be absorbed or you can absorb

145
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 2: it directly into the system. And it's a slow release.

146
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 2: That release yeah, over eight to eight to sixteen hours,

147
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,200
Speaker 2: whereas if you ingest it, so you take it orally,

148
00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 2: it's going to kick in really quickly. And there's actually amazing.

149
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,240
Speaker 3: A chronic pain needing it for six to twelve hours.

150
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:43,960
Speaker 3: The patch would be a great idea.

151
00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 1: It's measured, Yeah, it's measured.

152
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,920
Speaker 3: The drug addicts get ahold of these things, and all

153
00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,480
Speaker 3: of a sudden, there's they're poking holes, wearing three or

154
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,840
Speaker 3: four at a time, they're sucking the lint off of them,

155
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,440
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, you've gone from having a

156
00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:02,040
Speaker 3: usable medication. Yeah, that has become one of the easiest

157
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,280
Speaker 3: things to abuse, and it's killing people.

158
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah it is.

159
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,880
Speaker 2: And here's the other thing that drug dealers have discovered

160
00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 2: for years and years. When any kind of drug you

161
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,360
Speaker 2: name it, I mean anything like coke, which is a stimulants.

162
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,079
Speaker 2: There's a number of other drugs. There's even been cases

163
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,720
Speaker 2: where marijuana has been laced with fentanyl and it's led

164
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:27,680
Speaker 2: to death, things that you would not normally associate with

165
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 2: an opioid that like really slows down the system. This

166
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,839
Speaker 2: sort of thing. It's kind of juxtappose to the reason

167
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,400
Speaker 2: people take cocaine. All right, So all it takes are

168
00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 2: just a few granules, if you will, a fentyl that's

169
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,160
Speaker 2: pressed in to say, for instance, a coke or heroin

170
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 2: or whatever the case might be, whatever the drug, and

171
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 2: it's so very powerful that when drug dealers sell this

172
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,920
Speaker 2: drug to a buyer, the instant feeling that these people

173
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 2: get as a result of fentanyl being present in that

174
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 2: substance puts them in a state that they would not

175
00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: otherwise have expected to have been in. So what they're

176
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,200
Speaker 2: doing is they're literally cutting the drug and the past

177
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,040
Speaker 2: when you think about drugs being cut, you know, I've

178
00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,920
Speaker 2: worked cases where drugs have been cut with baby powder,

179
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 2: talcum quinine, and the reason they're cut is so that

180
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,800
Speaker 2: the drug dealers can extend their supply of the pure

181
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 2: form and they can add put in additives to this.

182
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 2: It's not counterintuitive, but when you mix fentanyl into one

183
00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 2: of these drugs, all of a sudden, it soups this

184
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 2: thing up to the point where they get this change

185
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,640
Speaker 2: in their reality. That is, the abuser or the recipient

186
00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,959
Speaker 2: of the drug, and they think, Holy Christmas, this thing's

187
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,760
Speaker 2: working and I've never felt this way before in my life.

188
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 2: And the next thing you know, they're dead because it's

189
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 2: so dangerous, it's so toxic that it can send them

190
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,440
Speaker 2: into what you see in other opiate related deaths, a

191
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,960
Speaker 2: congestive failure. You know, they start to turn purple, their foaming.

192
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,280
Speaker 2: They have foam coming from their mouth because their lungs

193
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,200
Speaker 2: are getting heavy, and there's really not a lot you

194
00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 2: can do for them at that moment time. For years,

195
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 2: we've had you know, you'd mentioned oxyconton a little while ago.

196
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,199
Speaker 2: OxyS were the they were kind of the main stay

197
00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 2: out there when you were talking about illicit drugs and

198
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 2: things that were being manufactured that weren't part of the

199
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical industry, and people would try to buy the ones

200
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 2: that legitimately were, but you had people that were manufacturing

201
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,320
Speaker 2: these things too, fentyls the same way. So you have

202
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,520
Speaker 2: these synthetics that are being manufactured. They're so very lethal

203
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 2: and so very dangerous that it can kill people. And

204
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,600
Speaker 2: you know that's why today, you know, I really had

205
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,120
Speaker 2: a desire to, uh, to talk about you know, these

206
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:55,960
Speaker 2: three cases.

207
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,839
Speaker 1: Corey Richins poisoned your husband with the old Moscow mule.

208
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Moscow mule. We've already done an episode of

209
00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:07,960
Speaker 2: body Bags on that where you had her administering fentanyl

210
00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,040
Speaker 2: allegedly to her husband and it killed him, killed him

211
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,280
Speaker 2: very quickly. And you know, and she was in possession

212
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 2: of this stuff allegedly according to the police, and now

213
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,880
Speaker 2: we've had this tragedy that has occurred in the Bronx

214
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 2: where we've got day literally a daycare where we've got

215
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,839
Speaker 2: one precious little angel that was under the care of

216
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,160
Speaker 2: these adults in this environment. That child has died. There

217
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 2: were three other ones that were exposed to fentel in

218
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:39,280
Speaker 2: the same environment.

219
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 1: They're dead.

220
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,200
Speaker 2: And now I'm not going to say it's a ray

221
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 2: of sunshine here, but now we've actually got a conviction, Dave,

222
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:54,680
Speaker 2: out in California involving a drug dealer who sold a tablet.

223
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,920
Speaker 2: It was actually a counterfeit percocet tablet, which are very

224
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 2: distinctive in their appearance percocet tablet. He provided this to

225
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 2: this fifteen year old child and she died within minutes

226
00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,000
Speaker 2: of ingesting this thing because it had fentnel in it.

227
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 2: And so this is certainly a problem that's not breaking news.

228
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 2: But the fact that there is now on the books

229
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,800
Speaker 2: a case where the court is actually saying that this

230
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 2: fifteen year old child's death is directly related to the

231
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,560
Speaker 2: administration of this drug and that this individual was charged

232
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 2: with second degree murder in California. In my mind, Dave,

233
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 2: it's a game changer. You know they back in Yes,

234
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:03,319
Speaker 2: it was probably March, I think of twenty sixteen. There

235
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 2: was an article that caught my eye. First off, it

236
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 2: had two things in it, and one thing you're going

237
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,160
Speaker 2: to be very interested in. It had the city's name

238
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:18,320
Speaker 2: stated in the article of Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and I know

239
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,320
Speaker 2: you're a baseball dude, and so that's the home of

240
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,640
Speaker 2: the Little League World Series. But the other word that

241
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 2: it had contained in there was corner. And I'm thinking,

242
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,640
Speaker 2: you know, Williamsburg seems to be this very the American

243
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 2: dream hot dogs, apple pie. But it turns out that

244
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 2: the corner in Williamsburg, Pennsylvania realized that there was a

245
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:50,360
Speaker 2: real problem in his little community up there with heroin abuse.

246
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: And guess what.

247
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,200
Speaker 2: Guess what he started doing, Dave every death that he had, Now,

248
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,120
Speaker 2: this is the corner doing this, not the DA. Every

249
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 2: death that this corner had that came through his office

250
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 2: that was a drug d he didn't rule it as

251
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 2: an accidental death. He ruled it as a homicide. Wow,

252
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,120
Speaker 2: And that's kind of a it's a different way of

253
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 2: looking at And there's a lot of people that would

254
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,000
Speaker 2: argue that, particularly legal egals that are out there I

255
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 2: know that, I understand, but just from a medical legal perspective,

256
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 2: from the perspective of the corner the medical examiner. When

257
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,920
Speaker 2: you think about that, his rationale was that and I

258
00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 2: think the quote was something like, in a paraphrasing, whether

259
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,200
Speaker 2: you're shot in the back with a bullet or shot

260
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 2: in the arm with heroin, you're dead. What's the difference?

261
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 2: This is a homicide. And so I'm you know, with

262
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 2: these developments out in California, with this fifteen year old

263
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 2: girl that has died as a result of being exposed

264
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 2: to fentanyl, I'm kind of encouraged maybe that some type

265
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 2: of step has been made, But Dave, you know, till

266
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 2: people make a decision not to ingest drugs, you're still

267
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 2: the problem is still going to exist. You can't arrest

268
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 2: it out of existence.

269
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 3: Remember when Carol O'Connor had a son, it was a

270
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 3: drug problem. Martin Sheen with Charlie Sheen, where these are

271
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 3: two very famous actors who actually went public with their

272
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 3: loved ones drug problem and demanding the police do something

273
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,640
Speaker 3: about the drug dealer who is selling it to them.

274
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 3: And I understand that as a parent, I understand the

275
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 3: pain use the case of fifteen year old jewel who

276
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 3: was given and think he said that she thought it

277
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 3: was a percocet. And the drug dealer, by the way,

278
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 3: a twenty year old, right, And that's the part I

279
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 3: think that really people don't understand is that you got

280
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 3: a twenty year old with whatever his education level is,

281
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,920
Speaker 3: he's mixing together drugs that he's popping in their fentanyl,

282
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 3: and is he squishing him into pills as he buy all.

283
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't understand, and I mean this show

284
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 3: I'm pretty worldly. This is beyond anything I ever thought

285
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 3: I would see. Coming to add a drug. Somebody's buying heroin.

286
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,200
Speaker 1: You're going to.

287
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 3: Add a drug to make it better, make it hook better,

288
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,360
Speaker 3: to sell these pills and you're gonna add It's like

289
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 3: this is like kryptonite. If you can imagine, I'm going

290
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,400
Speaker 3: to give Superman a pill and I'm gonna put ryptonite

291
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 3: in it. He's gonna think he's gonna really be strong,

292
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 3: but it's kill him. That's what they're doing.

293
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,880
Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting, you know, with the second degree

294
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 2: murder charge out in out in Cally with this death.

295
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 2: The way the statute is written is the unlawful killing

296
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 2: of human being that's done without deliberation or premeditation, so

297
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 2: you don't have that factor in there, but it is

298
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,439
Speaker 2: done with malice of forethought. And let me tell you

299
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 2: why I think that they were able to rule this

300
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,359
Speaker 2: case as a homicide from a medical legal perspective and

301
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,840
Speaker 2: then get a conviction on it is because when this

302
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 2: twenty two year old that has been convicted in this case,

303
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:54,440
Speaker 2: he was attempting to garner something else from this fifteen

304
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,120
Speaker 2: year old child, and that was a sexual rendezvous with her.

305
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 2: And I don't know what her history is as far

306
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,000
Speaker 2: as having been exposed to And I got to tell you,

307
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,360
Speaker 2: when I was fifteen years old, I wouldn't have known

308
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,560
Speaker 2: what a percoset was. I wouldn't have known that it's

309
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,640
Speaker 2: essentially an oxy conton, you know, mixed with a set

310
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:16,320
Speaker 2: of metaphine. I would have had no knowledge that. In

311
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 2: the public, when you're buying these things illicitly even and

312
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: most people create them with a press, they can come

313
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,600
Speaker 2: in a couple of different varieties when you see them.

314
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,639
Speaker 2: If people at home will know what a scored pill is,

315
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,439
Speaker 2: and a scored pill is where there is actually a line,

316
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 2: a deep line where you can break the thing into

317
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,800
Speaker 2: and take like half the dosage they will in certain circumstances, particularly,

318
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 2: I mean, how many times do we take drugs at home,

319
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 2: those that have been prescribed to us, and we closely

320
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 2: examine those tablets as we dump them into our hand

321
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,600
Speaker 2: and ingest them. We generally don't. But in the case

322
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 2: of this young fifteen year old girl, he tells her, perhaps, oh,

323
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 2: this is going to make you feel right, you know,

324
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 2: this is like an oxy only better. Gives this thing

325
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,359
Speaker 2: to her and it's a percocet. He says, well, it's

326
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 2: a percoset, and it's going to make you feel so

327
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 2: good when.

328
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: You take it. Well, she scores this drug.

329
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 2: From him, she takes it, and she winds up going

330
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 2: into cardiac arrest and dies. And the fact that it

331
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 2: happened so quickly is indicative of the nature of fentanyl

332
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 2: because it can literally kill you in just a few moments.

333
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: And it's really hard dependent upon the amount that you

334
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 2: get into your system. And remember what I had said earlier,

335
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 2: it's roughly one hundred times more lethal than, say, for instance,

336
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 2: adoties of heroin, and we all know how deadly heroin is,

337
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 2: and all it takes is just a couple of granules

338
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,439
Speaker 2: of fentyl itself to be commingled with the drug of

339
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 2: choice here, and that's what happened with her, not too

340
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 2: dissimilar from what happened in the Bronx at this daycare.

341
00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 2: I got to tell you, Dave, when I heard about

342
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 2: this particular case involving this twenty two month old, I

343
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 2: was absolutely gobsmacked by this because you're thinking, how in

344
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 2: the world does a twenty two month old, little precious

345
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: angel like this get exposed to fennel, of all things,

346
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 2: How does this happen?

347
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 4: Dave?

348
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 3: From a news perspective, we started looking at the daycare,

349
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 3: and the daycare owners started looking at neighbors seeing what

350
00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,360
Speaker 3: they were talking about. And then you find out it

351
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,119
Speaker 3: was not hidden. If you have a daycare center and

352
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 3: you don't have children, that's not a daycare center. If

353
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 3: you have daycare center has a lot of adults going

354
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 3: in and out but no children, that's not a daycare center.

355
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 3: And I it's in your neighborhood and that's happening. It's

356
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 3: not a daycare center, this Bronx's daycare. I actually looked

357
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,679
Speaker 3: it up on Google Earth. I wanted to see what

358
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 3: was around it. And where it was. And you know what,

359
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 3: they actually did a walkthrough of this daycare. And by

360
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 3: the way, by the time officials started looking at this

361
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 3: place and did a special walkthrough with no warning, they

362
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 3: passed like a daycare on the inside, they did have

363
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 3: children by then.

364
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 1: They didn't have.

365
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 3: Children for the first six months, but then they started

366
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: what the people looking in the building, they're looking to

367
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 3: make sure you've got children on mats, that the you know,

368
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: doors are locking properly, the food is put up. They're

369
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,560
Speaker 3: looking for safety conditions for children, and those conditions were met.

370
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 3: The reason they didn't see the drugs is the drugs

371
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 3: were hidden underneath, in a hidden compartment, underneath where the

372
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 3: children laid their nap mats. You've got toddlers a nap

373
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 3: mat that's the little pillow in it, and it rolls

374
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: out and the kids lay down and take their nap

375
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 3: and these.

376
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: Little toddlers, little babies.

377
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, how is it possible, Joe, that you've got okay

378
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 3: fence and all horrible drug and all that, But how

379
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 3: can it be so powerful that while they're mixing it

380
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,920
Speaker 3: up and making pills or whatever, that it gets into

381
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 3: the atmosphere sparkle you know, just a little pottery dust

382
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: in the like I'm thinking of when I've dust something

383
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 3: and I see the stuff a little bit. I mean,

384
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 3: is that what we're talking about? Something that little that

385
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 3: can actually impact them some?

386
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 2: It is, And what is so very insidious about it

387
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 2: is that it could be anywhere. You know, most of

388
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: us have not been to a pharmacy, a true legitimate

389
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical lab or a manufactory plant. Yeah, yeah, they do,

390
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: they do. And you've got people walking around. It's a

391
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,959
Speaker 2: very pristine environment. You're not going to have like a

392
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,480
Speaker 2: cloud of dust kind of floating in the air.

393
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: Okay.

394
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 2: There are certain measures that they take. I mean, just

395
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 2: think about it if that were the case where they're

396
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,360
Speaker 2: and they're literally pressing pills in there. They have these

397
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 2: huge machines which they actually found at this daycare.

398
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: Those manual ones, right, Yeah.

399
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 2: And it's a pressing machine and it exerts a certain

400
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: amount of foot pounds and so when it's pressed, that's

401
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 2: how you can turn something that otherwise is kind of

402
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: a chalky, powdery substance into a hard, hard substance. Now

403
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 2: it has to have binders in it. When you take

404
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 2: a medication, for instance, you're not just taking a pure medication.

405
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 2: There are other things in there that are used is

406
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 2: what to refer to as binders. They hold this thing together, okay,

407
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 2: And so the more tightly you can compress this thing,

408
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: it's going to have uniformity to it, but it's also

409
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: going to have a kind of a standardized form that's recognizable.

410
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: That's why, for instance, when we're talking about the California

411
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 2: case with the fifteen year old girl, he gave her

412
00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 2: a percocet, and traditionally a percocet will there are some

413
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: of the purposet tablets that will actually have percocet written

414
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 2: on the tablet. Now, others of them will have been

415
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: denoted by numbers that are distinct to that particular tablet.

416
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: Some of the tablets will look almost torpedo shaped and

417
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: others will be circular. And there's a whole variety of

418
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: different types. But in this case, back to the bronx

419
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 2: when you're thinking about this, the reason that in these

420
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical labs are safe, or the manufacturing plants are safe

421
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: is because the workers wouldn't live and survive in an

422
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: environment where there is particulate drug matter floating in the

423
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 2: air because they could inhale it all right with the

424
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: case in the Bronx where you have bags, Dave, and

425
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: I mean bags and bags.

426
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: Of these drugs.

427
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 2: They are literally beneath what the news is describing as

428
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: a trap door, which I think is an inaccurate phrase

429
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned. Because the floor itself is

430
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: it's tiled, so you could actually in its press and peel,

431
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 2: so you could pull up segments of the tile and

432
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: it's going to in its natural state. You're not going

433
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: to pick up on it. So any inspectors that would

434
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 2: walk in would not look at the floor. Other than

435
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: a health inspection. You're looking for discarded food stuffs that

436
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: might be stuck to the floor, milk stains, anything that

437
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: has issued forth, any kind of biological substance like children

438
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 2: are spinning up that sort of thing, and it hasn't

439
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: been cleaned. You're not gonna look what's to try to

440
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: see what's beneath the floorboards with fentanyl, if it's being

441
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 2: manufactured in there, If a child can just barely touch

442
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: the surface where say particulate fentanyl is that goes into

443
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: their mouth, So what do children do? I mean you

444
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: and I are both dads where both grandpas. When babies

445
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: are little, one of the ways that they explore the

446
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 2: world is to taste, and they experience everything. You know,

447
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: how many times do we tell our children, don't put

448
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: that in your mouth. In this particular case, how does

449
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 2: anyone know or how could anyone ever have anticipated that

450
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 2: this child would have reached down and touched arguably one

451
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: of the most toxic substances.

452
00:25:52,119 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 4: In the world, odorless and tasteless.

453
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: That would essentially describe fentanyl. There's really no way that

454
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to detect that it's there.

455
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: I think the only thing that's really detectable from a

456
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: taste standpoint might be any other substances that is married

457
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: to the actual drug fentyl that might give off a

458
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: better taste. But in its purest form, it's not going

459
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 2: to have a big neon sign over it saying, you know,

460
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 2: on any level, any century level, that this is in

461
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: fact a poison. And when we think about these cases

462
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: with the daycare and the fifteen year old girl in California,

463
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: those cases are cases that might not have specific intent

464
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: when we're talking about a death. But in the case

465
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: of Corey Richins allegedly killing her husband with Fentanel. You're

466
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: on a completely different level there, Dave. You're talking about

467
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: utilizing a known lethal substance in order to bring about

468
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: the death of another person, as if you would have

469
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: given them ar stick or strychnot.

470
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: I'm glad you pointed that out, because one of the

471
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 3: interesting parts of Corey richins alleged act is it wasn't

472
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 3: a one time attempt. There were several different times in

473
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: their married life over the last few years where her husband.

474
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 3: One was when they were in Greece. They're on vacation,

475
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 3: and he actually called home and talked to one of

476
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 3: his sisters and said, I think she's poisoning me, right.

477
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 3: He then before this happened, he got sick about a

478
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: month before, and that's when some of the information that

479
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: I've seen allegedly maybe you know, whatever you want to

480
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 3: call it, but there was information that a couple of

481
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 3: weeks before the final dosage was used to take him out,

482
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 3: that there had been an attempt and he did get sick,

483
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: but not as sick enough to die, and so she

484
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: had to allegedly try it out a couple of times

485
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: to get the dosage right. Because her goal was to

486
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 3: get the dosage right enough to kill him, but not

487
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 3: so much as to be overkilled, because she could always

488
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: come back and allegedly say he was just tying around

489
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 3: with mental he just got out of hand, you know,

490
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: you can always claim that. But if you've got somebody

491
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 3: who all of a sudden has enough to kill a camel,

492
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: and there's no way that the individual could have injected

493
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 3: it themselves or drank it or anything else without being

494
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: sick immediately, you know, there would have been a call

495
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 3: to police. There would have been an immediate nine one

496
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: one call going I'm dying, She's killing me, and I

497
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: don't know what you know, Yeah, I.

498
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: Think that one of the things is that you have

499
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: to consider is the means by which the fentyl is

500
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: taken on. Are we talking about an injectable, which is

501
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: certainly possible. People do inject fentyl, did you know, Dave,

502
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 2: The people even actually smoke. Yes, it can be mixed,

503
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, Like.

504
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 3: I didn't know that until you asked me about this

505
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 3: a while back, and I actually looked it up because.

506
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know.

507
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: Joe, Yeah, who takes the most powerful pain drug of

508
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: all time and mixes it with recreational drugs or what

509
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: we know to be recreational recreational drugs. So we do

510
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 3: that you're killing your potential client base, but really you're

511
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: getting them more addicted to a bigger high.

512
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: Well you are, and they don't die. Yeah.

513
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 2: And differing from the example with the Richard's case, I

514
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: think is the fact that if you are a drug dealer,

515
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: one of the worst models that you could have. And

516
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: I hate to say it this way, I know I'm

517
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: gonna catch grief over it, but when you think about

518
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: a business model, if you're attempting to make money, the

519
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: worst thing you can do is kill your client. And

520
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: so when you where's that middle ground that you can

521
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: hit in order to make the high more intense? But

522
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: you have them coming back for more. And the problem

523
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: is is that these drugs made in a clandestine environment.

524
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: So to be able to dial it in specifically from

525
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: just a pharmaceuical standpoint is very difficult when applied to say,

526
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: for instance, you're trying to commingle it with say, for instance,

527
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: heroin or coke. You don't know how much to apply

528
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: to the mixture so that it's non lethal.

529
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: That's what's going to ask you, Joe, what about in

530
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: the case of Corey Origins, where she allegedly purchased the

531
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: fentanyl tablets to mix in with her husband's drink, the

532
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 3: Moscow mule that she made him allegedly. As a medical

533
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: death investigator, how would you you see the guys dead

534
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 3: and you're trying to figure out what happened and nothing

535
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: really seems to make sense. Is it going to show

536
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: up in a manner of death? Is there something you're

537
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 3: going to see or is it only going to be

538
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 3: toxicology that's going to tell you? And is the toxicology

539
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: report going to tell you enough?

540
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: Generally, with opioid disks you're going to have there will

541
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: be some physical sentemology. And one of the things that

542
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: you you know, you've heard me say over and over again,

543
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: with drugs like this that kind of depress the respiratory system,

544
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: many times you're going to see them going to a

545
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: congestive failure. So with and I'm not saying this about Corey,

546
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: I'm talking in very very broad terms here. When you

547
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: think about say heroin ods, they'll get this congestive appearance,

548
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: congested appearance where their head will actually appear very purple.

549
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: They'll have froth coming from their nose and their mouth,

550
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: and generally if from the nipple line up, many times

551
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: you'll have this kind of purple discoloration that you'll have

552
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: with the mater. Yeah, yeah, from any kind of opiate overdose,

553
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 2: and it doesn't happen every single time. One of the

554
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: things that you look for, though, is the weight of

555
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: the lungs, because the lungs get precipitously heavy. And in

556
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: this and again it goes to this idea of and

557
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 2: it's not like heavy that you see with people that

558
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: have like a viral or something like that, where you've

559
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: got a lot of mucus in there. When you know

560
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: you dissect the lungs, it's something completely different. They will

561
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: be very heavy. They will have like a hemorrhagic appearance

562
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 2: when you see them. And you're talking about not just

563
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: like fifty grams heavier than they normally are. You're talking

564
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: about one hundred grams heavier than they should be when

565
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: you weigh them, because we weigh each one of the organs.

566
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: That's one of the things that you'll look for in

567
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: which we refer to this in the morgue as a

568
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: the gross anatomic dissection. And when I say that that

569
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: means you're dissecting and examining the body, where the unaided

570
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: eye is the way the physicians will say. And so

571
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: then you take the tissue segments and you'll see the congestion,

572
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: for instance, in in the lungs themselves microscopically. But then

573
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: it comes down to toxicology and it's it's really interesting.

574
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: I think about this the other day, Dave. When I

575
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 2: first started out working for the Corner all the years

576
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: ago in New Orleans, we have a standard drug panel.

577
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:03,719
Speaker 1: That we'll look for.

578
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 2: We look for it'll be opiate's THC is on there,

579
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: Coke is on their, benzo, daiza pine, all these other things.

580
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 2: Even solicitates for the aspirin. Now they specifically screen for fentanyl.

581
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 2: So it will be on a standard panel and it

582
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 2: will pop up. It's not one of these things that's

583
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: necessarily going to be hidden. It's not some kind of exotic,

584
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, exotic toxin from some the back of a

585
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: frog somewhere in South America. This is something that will

586
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: be be there. And the trick is particularly will you

587
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: be able to get You can do you can get

588
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: what's called a qualitative amount to say that yes, that

589
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: drug is there, but it takes a bit longer to

590
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 2: get a quantitative amount, going circling all the way back

591
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: to when we started our conversation. Fentanyl was initially designed

592
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 2: as an analgesic. It was initially designed to bring us

593
00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: relief from pain, Dave, but now it's used in such

594
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: a manner that it's used for completely different purpose, and

595
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: so to try to suss that out and understand.

596
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: What was it being purposed for.

597
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: When you look for fentanyl or any kind of drug,

598
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: they actually have what are referred to as therapeutic levels.

599
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: There's a standard baseline. I'm going to keep this very

600
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: simple for everybody. There's a standard baseline that you look

601
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,959
Speaker 2: for in a top screen. And even if you're talking

602
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: about cocaine, there is what's referred to as a therapeutic

603
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: level for cocaine.

604
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 1: Cocaine is still used in hospital cocaine.

605
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: Cocaine has been used in the past for particularly for

606
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 2: local anesthetics. A dentists would use it as a direct

607
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 2: injection into like the gums.

608
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: It's a number you could gain on the end of something.

609
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: It's gonna numb you.

610
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it will numb things. So you can find

611
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 2: there are applications for every drug at a therapeutic level. Now,

612
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: whether or not doctors would still choose to use it

613
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: or not, but fentanyl does exist as a therapeutic measure.

614
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 2: So you think about that and think, well, is this

615
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: is this the type of medication that this individual would have?

616
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: And from a legal perspective, you have to investigate and

617
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: find out what their medical history is. Are they experiencing

618
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: back pain? Do they have some kind of pain that

619
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: they're having to endure that maybe a physician has prescribed

620
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 2: them something, you know, to thwart that pain, to give

621
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: them the analgesus to knock it down. Or is this

622
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: something else? Is this something that somebody has produced in

623
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: their garage or out in the woods somewhere that certainly

624
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: has no therapeutic views. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

625
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: is body backs.