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Speaker 1: Ridiculous historians. We are returning to you with this week's

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Speaker 1: classic episode special shout out to folks in Ohio aka

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Speaker 1: the Buckeye State, as well as Michigan. Noel, you've been

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Speaker 1: to Michigan.

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Speaker 2: Right, Ben, I have been to Michigan, and you bringing

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Speaker 2: up the Buckeye State reminded me of a conversation we

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Speaker 2: had just the other day about what a hoosier is.

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Speaker 2: It's actually kind of much hotly debated. Some people think

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Speaker 2: it's a connection to the who's here greeting, like who's here?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: And then there's a dude named John Finley who popularized

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Speaker 2: the term in a poem called the Hoosier's Nest, And

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Speaker 2: then there are a couple.

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Speaker 1: Of other reasons.

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Speaker 2: But the word that I learned, Ben, was a demonym,

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Speaker 2: which is a word that is used to describe a

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Speaker 2: native or resident of a particular region. And hoosier is

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Speaker 2: a demonym. So I'm sorry, I just had to share

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Speaker 2: that with the class man.

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Speaker 1: I love you for that. We love a specific word.

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Speaker 1: English is full of them. Indiana is technically full of hoosiers.

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Speaker 1: Ohio being the Buckeye State, we learned the etymology of

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Speaker 1: that as well. In our earlier conversation, are the poisonous nut? Right? Yes,

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Speaker 1: a poisonous nut, as some of my ex girlfriends have

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Speaker 1: described me. We'll keep it. This episode, Noel is about

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Speaker 1: the time that Ohio and Michigan almost went to actual war. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: over some lakes, some great ones. Indeed, let's roll the tape, y'all.

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. State Rivalries. One

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Speaker 1: of my favorite things about traveling around this fair nation

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Speaker 1: of hours is the regardless of what state you find

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Speaker 1: yourself in, you can find another state that most of

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Speaker 1: the people in that state hate. So if you go

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Speaker 1: to Alabama, you'll find a lot of people who hate Georgia.

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Speaker 1: If you go to Georgia, you'll find a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who hate Alabama. Hi. My name is Ben, Hi,

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Speaker 1: my name is Nolan.

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Speaker 2: I was just recently in Oregon driving around in a

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Speaker 2: rental car with California plates, and I was counseled that

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Speaker 2: I better tread lightly because that's not a good look.

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Speaker 2: And people from Oregon do not cottonto those city slickers

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Speaker 2: from California crossing over into their fair state.

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Speaker 1: And here's the problem.

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Speaker 2: The car I was in was a big, giant suv,

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Speaker 2: so a real hog of the road and it had

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Speaker 2: a tear trigger horn, so I was constantly accidentally honking

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Speaker 2: at people in traffic and get some pretty nasty looks.

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Speaker 1: Well, listeners, super producer Casey Pegrim, and I can assure

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Speaker 1: you that that Noel is a responsible driver and you

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Speaker 1: don't just lay on your horn. You know, it's tough

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Speaker 1: when you're driving a rental car. And you're right. You're

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Speaker 1: right about California. A lot of people have been moving

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Speaker 1: to Oregon, especially the western part of the state by

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Speaker 1: the coast. And when I had spent time in Portland,

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Speaker 1: that's one thing everybody got behind. They were like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: he's Californians CANi coming in here taking over our state.

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Speaker 1: Stay on the four O five. So today's story is

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Speaker 1: a story about state rivalry, but it's not about that

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, funny. Let's tell a one liner

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Speaker 1: joke sort of rivalry. What do we mean by one

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Speaker 1: liner joke? I'll tell an example that makes fun of Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Since this is our state, of course, we don't want

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Speaker 1: to offend anybody. So let's say you're in Alabama, you're

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Speaker 1: in Florida, and someone says, hey, did you hear about

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Speaker 1: that hurricane that hit Savannah and they say, no, what happened?

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Speaker 1: So while it did like millions of dollars worth of improvements,

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a joke that you hear thrown around

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: Savannah's beautiful city, though, Ben, who would say that about Savannah?

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Speaker 2: Who would say that? I don't know, jerks, who are

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Speaker 2: these monsters? Well, they're jokes. Savannah is a town with

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Speaker 2: a lot of history. It's got a weird vibe.

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Speaker 1: And there's a like a nuclear weapon lost off the

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Speaker 1: coast there. Did you know that? I didn't, but I

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Speaker 1: know there's a lot of ghosts there.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it goes one of those ghosty port towns

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Speaker 2: like New Orleans.

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Speaker 1: M And it's oh, man, yeah, we should we should

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Speaker 1: go down there. We should go down there on a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous history field trip. We could do a ghost tour.

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Speaker 1: We could do a ghost tour. I think I think

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Speaker 1: it's in the budget. What do you say, let's do it?

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Speaker 1: Case he are you down for a ghost tour? I'd

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Speaker 1: love to do that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Savers going to Hawaii, they can at least send

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Speaker 2: us to Savannah for a ghost tour.

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Speaker 1: That really Savers a food, lifestyle and travel show. It's

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Speaker 1: also involves food science.

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Speaker 2: You check it out if you're at a chance see

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Speaker 2: your friends Lauren Vogel bamb In any race.

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Speaker 1: Who are going to Hawaii. That is true. I asked

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Speaker 1: them to bring back some spam for me. We'll see.

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Speaker 1: You know they still spam here in the States. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it's different. There are more flavors in Hawaii.

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Speaker 2: Okay, did you specifically ask for a flavor or just like,

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Speaker 2: gimme get weird with it?

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Speaker 1: Say give me one that I can't get in the States. Sol.

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Speaker 2: It's sort of like all those different flavors of kit

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Speaker 2: kats that you can only get in Japan.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a bag of those if I desk.

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Speaker 1: I really like the green tea ones. Green tea is good.

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Speaker 1: I get hipped to banana. Also, Hawaii is, I think,

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Speaker 1: per capita, the world's largest consumer of spam. Remember when

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Speaker 1: we did an episode on spam with Nanny from Savor and.

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Speaker 2: We talked about how they have to keep it under

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Speaker 2: lock and key because it's such a non perishable item

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Speaker 2: that they can just flip it out of their trunks

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Speaker 2: once they you know, do a big spam heist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to have spam in my go bag.

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Speaker 1: But the weight ratio is anyway anyway, anyway, State rivals rights,

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Speaker 1: state rivalries. Today's episode is about a state rivalry. It

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Speaker 1: is about the fair states of Ohio and Michigan, who

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Speaker 1: nowadays knowel neither of us are big football fanatics football football, yes,

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Speaker 1: American football tatics. Yeah, neither of us are huge American

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Speaker 1: football fanatics. Nowhere near as insane and rabbit about it

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Speaker 1: as Casey Pegrim is. But even we know that Michigan

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Speaker 1: and Ohio are famous for how much their college football

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Speaker 1: teams hate each other.

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Speaker 2: I only knew it because it says it right here

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Speaker 2: on this out line. Yeah, that's how you and I

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Speaker 2: know that that's right. But it's true, and who knows,

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Speaker 2: I mean, perhaps the rivalry in question today has had

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Speaker 2: a historical hold on the relationship between these two states

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Speaker 2: and has you know, I would say a football rivalry

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Speaker 2: or a little healthy joshing around between you know, rough

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Speaker 2: and tumble footballers, is a lot healthier and safer than

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Speaker 2: what has been described as the Till War, a clash

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Speaker 2: between Ohiolands. And I'm gonna go with my favorite Michiganders

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Speaker 2: because in our research material. Sometimes it says Michiganians, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes I Michiganders.

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Speaker 1: Michigan Michiganders.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right in any Michigan folk, let us know what

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Speaker 2: ones you prefer. But this conflict took place in eighteen

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Speaker 2: thirty five, and it had to do with the fact

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Speaker 2: that both Ohio, which was a state at the time,

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Speaker 2: and Michigan, which was not yet a state at the time,

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Speaker 2: both thought they owned this little strip of land. It's

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Speaker 2: almost like a gaza strip kind of situation between two

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Speaker 2: warring nations, only this case it's you know, there's there's

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Speaker 2: states in a state, in a not quite yet state,

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Speaker 2: and there's this little strip of land between them that

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Speaker 2: each of them feel like they have a claim to,

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Speaker 2: right right.

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Speaker 1: This was a long time in coming, and it's a

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Speaker 1: it's based on a series of misunderstandings. First off, I

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Speaker 1: love the name Toledo War. It sounds like it's the

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Speaker 1: name of an album. In seventeen eighty seven, the US

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Speaker 1: Congress drafted what they called the Northwest Ordinance, and the

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Speaker 1: Northwest Ordinance said that two hundred and sixty thousand square

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Speaker 1: miles of territory around the Great Lakes would be carved

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Speaker 1: into a handful of states. The law also said that

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Speaker 1: the border between Ohio and Michigan was to run on

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Speaker 1: a quote east and west line drawn through the southerly

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Speaker 1: bend or extreme of Lake Michigan until it intersected with

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Speaker 1: Lake Erie. However, they did a bad job. They did

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Speaker 1: a piss poor job because the problem is that the

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Speaker 1: maps they had were wrong. Lake Michigan's southern tip on

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Speaker 1: the map, one of the best maps at the time

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Speaker 1: that they used, which was called the Mitchell Map. You

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Speaker 1: can look it up today. The Lake Michigan that was

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Speaker 1: on the map was actually several miles north of where

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Speaker 1: it is in the world or on the planet. And

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Speaker 1: so so Congress got it wrong and they didn't know

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Speaker 1: in a minute Congress did what Yeah, I know, I know.

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Speaker 1: I thought they were infallible. It was the one time

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Speaker 1: Congress got it wrong, and they didn't know that they

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Speaker 1: got it wrong until eighteen o two years and years later,

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Speaker 1: And it was because of a fur trapper who said, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: actually got the line wrong. This is going to come

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Speaker 1: back to bite you in the future. Listen to me.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a trapper. Professionally, I'm telling you you guys

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Speaker 1: are trapping yourselves and how did they react? Well, we

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Speaker 1: know it wasn't resolved. Well, first of all, I got

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Speaker 1: I got a backtrack slightly.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you this, did this fur trapper with

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Speaker 2: you know, just just waltz into Congress and announce these findings.

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Speaker 2: Say hey, hey, you guys, it's me Raoul the fur Trapper.

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Speaker 2: I got something to tell you. Or was he employed

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Speaker 2: by them? Was he sent to what's the word survey

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Speaker 2: the land? Because the surveyors come in a little later.

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Speaker 2: Sorry if I'm getting caught up in semantics here, I

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Speaker 2: just can't pick sure. Raoul the fur Trapper just waltzing

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Speaker 2: into Connor and saying, listen here, this is going to

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Speaker 2: be a real problem.

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Speaker 1: He did. I like the name Raoul, and we don't

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Speaker 1: have the exact name for this guy. Apparently delegates from

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Speaker 1: the Ohio Constitutional Convention received reports from him, so he

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Speaker 1: did not stroll into the halls of Federal Congers.

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Speaker 2: I see, he had a correspondence going on with him.

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Speaker 2: He was some in some form their representative, and he

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Speaker 2: had he had a lot of stuff going on already.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean. He can't watch every falling

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Speaker 1: sparrow or border dispute. But you said, you said there

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Speaker 1: there was another important thing happening here, which is that

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Speaker 1: these territories, these areas around the lakes were not states.

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Speaker 1: Ohio finally became a state in what eighteen oh three,

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Speaker 1: and so Ohio said, when it became a state, it

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Speaker 1: specified something about this border in its constitution. So the

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Speaker 1: fur trapper says, the line I actually falls south of

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Speaker 1: the Maumi River, and Ohio says, we own the land

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Speaker 1: around this no matter what future surveys show. And then

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Speaker 1: the Michigan Territory is formed and the government of the

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Speaker 1: Michigan Territory says, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Ohio, watch yourself,

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Speaker 1: because that Mitchell map is wrong. We have newer, better

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Speaker 1: maps and they show that this region is ours. This

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Speaker 1: is Michigan Territory, so step off seriously.

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Speaker 2: So things only got worse because in the eighteen tens

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Speaker 2: they sent a pair of land.

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Speaker 1: Surveyors well actually I guess one from each.

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Speaker 2: Side, yeah yeah, yeah, one from each side, and of

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Speaker 2: course they came to two different conclusions no way, yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: about the location where this border would be. And that's

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Speaker 2: when this strip became a thing, this gaza strip esque

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Speaker 2: area of land a four hundred and sixty eight square

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Speaker 2: mile slice known as the Toledo Strip that was officially

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Speaker 2: being claimed very aggressively actually, as it would turn out,

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Speaker 2: by both Ohio and what was then called the Michigan Territory.

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Speaker 1: So, okay, sure, maps get things wrong. People are fallible.

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Speaker 1: Can't they just sit down together and work it out? Well,

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Speaker 1: they could if it were an arbitrary mistake. The problem

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Speaker 1: is they both have skin in the game. They both

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Speaker 1: have a horse in the race. They both want a

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Speaker 1: badger in the bag here, because they wanted to control

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Speaker 1: this area that it would later become Toledo and the river.

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Speaker 1: You see. By eighteen twenty five, the completion of the

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Speaker 1: Erie Canal linked the Great Lakes to the east coast

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Speaker 1: Ecteamo on the Arico.

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Speaker 2: Now that one, Yeah, it's an all song kind of

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Speaker 2: like in the company store. We're trying to ground it

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Speaker 2: and like you know lore, Yeah, and folks, folks, folks songs.

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Speaker 1: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: No, this is very, very very valuable position to hold

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Speaker 2: in terms of trade. Right, yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: So Toledo at this point is a growing village. It's

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Speaker 2: the largest port on Lake Erie's western side, and that

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Speaker 2: means it could be a financial windfall. So of course

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Speaker 2: both Michigan and Ohio want to tighten their grip on it.

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Speaker 2: And just like just like the border disputes we see

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Speaker 2: in more recent years, they try a number of things

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Speaker 2: right to legitimize their claim, both in the eyes of

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Speaker 2: the people living there and in terms of just pure infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: So the Michigan territory, because still not a state yet,

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Speaker 2: is constructing roads, it's sending people on purpose to live

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Speaker 2: there to sort of take over the land. It's holding election,

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Speaker 2: it's collecting taxes. Really put in the cart before the

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Speaker 2: old horse, there isn't it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like a boots flexing that claim, right. It is

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Speaker 1: not an ethical way to gain territory. It is an

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Speaker 1: unfortunately common way that human beings have done this in

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Speaker 1: the past and the modern day. Just say like, let's

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Speaker 1: if we send enough of quote unquote our people to

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Speaker 1: a place that we don't own and have them live there,

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Speaker 1: but eventually it's ours.

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Speaker 2: This isn't the moon, you know. This isn't like a

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Speaker 2: far removed location. This isn't a colony that is completely

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Speaker 2: disconnected from day to day life. This is a very

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Speaker 2: small strip of land right between these two places where

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Speaker 2: presumably human beings live, and it became very evident that

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Speaker 2: both sides wanted to protect their claim physically if necessary.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, and Ohio. Ohio tries a different strategy. They're

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Speaker 1: doing some of the same things the Michigan territory, but

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Speaker 1: Ohio is already a state, so they have a pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty significant advantage. They go to Washington like that fur

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Speaker 1: trapper who never made it. Yeah. Right, Well, so they

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Speaker 1: go to the halls of federal power and they say, look,

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Speaker 1: a deal is a deal, is a deal. When we

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Speaker 1: became a state, we put this in our instruction manual

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Speaker 1: or their constitution. Rather, you guys screwed up. You guys

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Speaker 1: screwed up. That's not on us. Toledo is and will

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Speaker 1: always be a part of Ohio as God intended it.

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Speaker 1: In fact, in the early eighteen thirties, members of Congress

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Speaker 1: from Ohio blocked a Michigan petition for statehood and tried

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Speaker 1: to hold the Toledo strip, which they called it a hostage,

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Speaker 1: and they said, look, you can't be a state. They

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Speaker 1: didn't say give up Toledo. They said unless you admit

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Speaker 1: that Toledo is ours. I mean, if we're being honest here,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty scrappy of non state Michigan here, the way

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Speaker 1: they're flexing on this claim, knowing that they themselves don't

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Speaker 1: even have statehood yet, and that they're poking the bear

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Speaker 1: in more ways than one. Right, Yeah, exactly. In eighteen

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Speaker 1: thirty three, the US becomes divided on the issue the

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Speaker 1: entirety of Congress. So the Senate says, okay, we're team Ohio.

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Speaker 1: We side with Ohio. But the House of Representatives says, well, well, like,

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Speaker 1: we're not just going to go along with you, guys.

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Speaker 1: And then people say, Stevens Mason. That's his name, Stevens,

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Speaker 1: that's Stevens.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna get into some other really amazing names in

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Speaker 2: this story later, but yeah, Stephens Mason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's the governor of the Michigan Territory again still

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Speaker 1: not a state. And he says, hey, look, let's get

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Speaker 1: a commission together to try to work this out. I

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Speaker 1: think it's so funny, Stevens Mason. It should be flipped.

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Speaker 1: It should be Mason Stevens. Yeah. It's the last name,

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Speaker 1: first name, first name, last name vibe very like more

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Speaker 1: than one. I have a I have a good friend

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Speaker 1: whose name is Jame. He's just like what one James.

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Speaker 2: Well, that was the name of Buffalo Bill in the

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Speaker 2: Sounds of the Lambs movie.

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Speaker 1: His name was Jame. Gum, isn't that right? Casey Goodbye Horses,

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Speaker 1: That's right. Oh I thought it was James. No, it

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Speaker 1: was Jame. Oh weird. I just rewatched the chase scene

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Speaker 1: from that.

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Speaker 2: I just rewatched the.

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Speaker 1: The mirror scene, the case, not the mirror see. Of course, the.

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Speaker 2: Mirror se That's the most iconic moment from that movie.

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Speaker 2: That's the one part everyone remembers. Good Bye Horses and

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Speaker 2: the mirror scene.

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Speaker 1: I I remember the lotion on the skin part. That's

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Speaker 1: also a good one. Did you know Anthony Hopkins is

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Speaker 1: only in that movie like fourteen or fifteen minutes? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah's hes a, he's a I mean, but it's

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Speaker 2: it's a very powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 1: It's true, uh speak powerful powerful fourteen or fifteen minutes.

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Speaker 1: We have to wonder how long Governor Robert Lucas of

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Speaker 1: Ohio took to evaluate Mason's appeal. Not that long. He

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Speaker 1: pretty much instantly refused it. He said, we do not negotiate,

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Speaker 1: and then he said, furthermore, in eighteen thirty five. This

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Speaker 1: is when everything started to go really off the rails.

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Speaker 1: He said, We're going to form our own county on

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Speaker 1: the Toledo Strips. Now, don't call it the Toledo Strip now,

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Speaker 1: it's Lucas County, Ohio. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then Michigan flexes back against against Ohio, against Lucas

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Speaker 2: and acts this series of laws called the Pains and

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Speaker 2: Penalties Acts. And that's in February of eighteen thirty five,

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Speaker 2: a law that said anyone found hanging out in said

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Speaker 2: strip that supported Ohio could be sent to jail for

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Speaker 2: up to five years and find a grand which at

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Speaker 2: the time would have been equivalent to about twenty five

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. So Mason gets a thousand men a militia

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Speaker 2: and stations them right inside of this area. And then Lucas,

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Speaker 2: you know, maybe having access to fear men or thinking

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Speaker 2: that it wasn't that big a deal because they, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're big old state boys, sent six hundred men just

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Speaker 2: to make sure that there wasn't some sort of like

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Speaker 2: out and out blood bath.

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Speaker 1: This is looking bad, really is oh Also, we should

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Speaker 1: mention the governor of the not quite a state, Michigan territory.

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Speaker 1: Stevens Mason. He is twenty three years old.

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Speaker 2: Don't they call him the boy King or something like that, Golden,

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Speaker 2: the Boy Governor, the boy Governor.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah. So so now we have military forces

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Speaker 1: moving in and this weird hearts and minds law supporting

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Speaker 1: the state of Ohio. What does that mean? That can

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Speaker 1: mean anything from being an official of the county they

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Speaker 1: proposed Lucas County to say, Hey, I live in Toledo

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Speaker 1: and I'm in Ohio.

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Speaker 2: And also it's got that very kind of like gestapoy

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Speaker 2: kind of idea of like what if you're just caught

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Speaker 2: paling around with somebody from the other side. You know

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Speaker 2: what if someone names n and you're one of the names,

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Speaker 2: what gets name?

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Speaker 1: Next thing? You know, you're sitting in the clink for

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Speaker 1: five years and you're you know, one thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: debt which will be incredibly difficult to pay off. So

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Speaker 1: the federal government tries to get these people to get along,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact they're already active militias in the area.

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Speaker 1: So on April ninth, eighteen thirty five, a posse led

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Speaker 1: by a sheriff from Michigan rode into Toledo, and they

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Speaker 1: did just what they were talking about. They arrested several

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Speaker 1: state officials from Ohio and then newspapers who you imagine

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Speaker 1: have to have loved the headline potential here. Newspapers said

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Speaker 1: that an Ohio flag was torn down, dragged through the streets,

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Speaker 1: and burned. People are poed. Really a lawless.

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Speaker 2: Zone here, you know, because no one knows who's in charge,

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Speaker 2: so everyone's kind of in charge, or it's kind I mean,

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Speaker 2: it really is like a Wild West.

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Speaker 1: Gone situation, but just in this little strip. So it escalates.

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Speaker 2: My friend involves another sheriff from Michigan, this time a

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Speaker 2: man named Joseph Wood, who attempts to enforce this pain

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Speaker 2: and Penalties Act by arresting Major Benjamin Stickney, loving that

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Speaker 2: name because he voted in an Ohio election.

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Speaker 1: And this is fantastic the names. This is the name

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Speaker 1: Dickney's sons, who are named one Stickney and two Stickney

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Speaker 1: like the numbers O N E T W O. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They join in with their pops Stickney Sr. And they

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Speaker 2: resist being arrested, and they they stab sheriff would with.

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Speaker 1: A pocket knife, but not fatally. No, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a but a flesh wound. Really right, tis only a scratch?

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Speaker 1: This but a scratch? Uh, funny story. I've got a

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Speaker 1: I had a great aunt whose name was nine. Really,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. I like the idea of numbers for names.

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Speaker 1: Me too, I met I met a dude named seven

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Speaker 1: and he was so cool. He was not related to me.

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Speaker 1: I only have one number name in my family. I

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Speaker 1: like the name four. You like the name four? Huh?

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Speaker 1: I mean six? A character on Blossom? There's six Smith

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Speaker 1: in Cloud Atlas. Oh, okay, I haven't seen that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm partially for some reason, I'm partial

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Speaker 1: to odd numbers for names. This has nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with Michigan. In Ohio's Toledo War, what do you think

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Speaker 1: is a great number for a name?

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Speaker 2: There was a character named six on Blossom and he

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Speaker 2: was six Lemeur played by oh Jenna von Oi.

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Speaker 1: Another great name. These are great names. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: go with a I would go with a nine or

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Speaker 1: maybe a three. Yeah, I would go with the name three. Casey,

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Speaker 1: do you have a number that you you think would

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Speaker 1: make a good name? Twenty seven? I knew you were

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Speaker 1: gonna Okay, Casey on the case he's thought about it, folks,

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Speaker 1: He's thought about this lot. So this is the first

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Speaker 1: violent physical altercation when the Michigan Sheriff Joseph Wood and

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Stickney and co. Get beefed up, and now Sheriff

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Speaker 1: Wood is remembered as the one injury casualty in the

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Speaker 1: Toledo War. So the Ohio Governor Lucas announced his intentions

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Speaker 1: to hold the court session in Toledo. So they were

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Speaker 1: gonna hold a session in a court.

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Speaker 2: Of law, like I said, like a hearing kind of, right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: kind of like a kangaroo court.

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Speaker 1: It's not like he's going to have a stunning plot twist.

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Speaker 1: Karoo courts just seems so cute and fun to me idea,

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Speaker 1: but they're not at all. No, They're very railroady and

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Speaker 1: sort of a mockery of justice, right, right. Do you

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Speaker 1: know where that comes from? A lot of people think

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Speaker 1: it comes from Australia.

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Speaker 2: Predictably because the only not just to stereotype because of kangaroos.

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Speaker 2: I would have thought it maybe came from the fact

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Speaker 2: that it was a penal colony, right, and maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: it was the idea of giving someone not a fair

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Speaker 2: trial and throwing them onto a penal colony.

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Speaker 1: Is that not true? It's it's not true, which is

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Speaker 1: weird because it's it's something I believe for years too.

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Speaker 1: The first published instance of the term kangaroo court comes

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Speaker 1: from nineteen or eighteen fifty three rather, and it may

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Speaker 1: have been popularized during the California gold Rush because a

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Speaker 1: lot of Australians went to the California gold Rush and

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Speaker 1: then they would have, you know, accusations of claim jumping,

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Speaker 1: so claim jumping and hastily proceeding through the legal system,

427
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Speaker 1: perhaps by leaps and bounds like a kangaroo. That's right.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, they may leap and bound, right, so

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Speaker 1: they would jump over or ignore evidence that would be

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Speaker 1: in favor of the defendant. But people don't really know.

431
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: That's just another theory. I think the most widely believed

432
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: one is the penal colony, but apparently that's the timing

433
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: doesn't work out. Ben.

434
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: I just went down a bit of a mini internet

435
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: rabbit hole when I was looking into the origins of

436
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: kangaroo courts, and I discovered that in Germany, the Third

437
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: Reich would hold their versions of kangaroo courts, and you

438
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: know what they were called.

439
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: Ben what were they called. They were called the People's Court,

440
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: but not with Judge Wapner. I think I've seen this. Yeah,

441
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: you know what show I missed as well. I watched,

442
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: I listened to the I listened to the intro theme

443
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: song for it all the time. Night Court. I'll probably

444
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: never actually watch Night Court. It probably hasn't aged well

445
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: since Dan Fielding is pretty much in a Sexual Predator.

446
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but but that intro music is so great.

447
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: I wish we could play it anyhow. So he has

448
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: this kind of fake court set up to supposedly legitimize

449
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 1: Ohio's claim. This is the governor. This is the Governor

450
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: Lucas of Ohio, and the boy Gov Stevens. Mason's hears

451
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: about this, and he marches twelve hundred militiamen called Wolverines

452
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: onto the Toledo Strip and they are prepared, the Michiganders,

453
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: to use violent force to stop this court session from

454
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: taking place. They get there on September seventh of eighteen

455
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: thirty five, and then they find out they have been outsmarted.

456
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 2: It's true because the Ohioans had already done these court

457
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: proceedings in secret at the witching hour. It was a

458
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 2: midnight court session and then just booked it out of

459
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: there because they didn't want to get slaughtered right right.

460
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: So, according to history dot com, the court incident marked

461
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: the last gasp of armed hostilities in the Toledo War.

462
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: Uncle Sam's representatives say, hey, Ohio, Michigan, why don't you

463
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: guys jointly govern the territory until Congress can make a

464
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: permanent decision on the issue. Ohio says, all right, cool, dope,

465
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 1: let's do that. But at the same time, while they

466
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: said that was okay, they authorized three hundred thousand dollars

467
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: to the Ohio militia to seize the territory if Michigan

468
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: said no. And Michigan said no, so the Ohio militia

469
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 1: moved to the south bank of the river and faced

470
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: off with Michigan's military on the north side. And then

471
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: the president had had enough. Andrew Jackson, president at the time,

472
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: said this is bonkers. This is bananas, this is malarkey.

473
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: I am removing slash firing the boy governor. Ooh, how

474
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: do you do that?

475
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: That's a bit of a legal reach, isn't it just

476
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: to say I unequivocally, as the President, remove you from

477
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: your duly elected office. Didn't seem like that would go

478
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: over very well. And then installm and to install my guy.

479
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: Right, that's right. It does seem like an overreach of

480
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: you know, but that's what happened, and Mason was replaced

481
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: by a fellow named John Horner. John Horner, I don't

482
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: know if we would say completely mended the offences, but

483
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 1: he worked with the Ohio governor to reach a okay

484
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: conclusion to the dispute, and Ohio was happy. The people

485
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 1: of Michigan were not. They hated this guy. They despised him.

486
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: They would see him in the street and verbally abuse him.

487
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: They hanged effigies of him on multiple occasions, and they

488
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: immediately voted Stevens. Mason, the boy governor, back into office.

489
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: So this debate raged on, and a lot of it

490
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: focused on Michigan's you know, ongoing plea to be made

491
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: a state. And that was really the deciding factor here

492
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: because on December fourteenth, eighteen thirty six, Michigan did eventually

493
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: accept a congressional compromise and they said, okay, we will

494
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: give up the Toledo Strip if we are admitted to

495
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 1: the Union as the twenty sixth state. And with that

496
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: Toledo became part of the state of Ohio. Michigan didn't

497
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: just give that up for statehood. They also got some

498
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: land right in the upper Peninsula.

499
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's between Lake Michigan and Lake Superior. The thing is,

500
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,959
Speaker 2: though the Michiganers weren't super thrilled about this.

501
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: They thought it was kind of.

502
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: A raw deal because the Detroit Free Press at the

503
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: time had categorized this Upper peninsular area as a barren

504
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: waste land of perpetual snows. But you know, as history

505
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: has a tendency to do, kind of softened things a

506
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: little bit when they discovered some precious mineable materials in

507
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: the form of copper and iron ore. So it turned

508
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 2: out to be not a not a bad trade, not

509
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: a complete wash.

510
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: And there we have it, folks. The Toledo War, nowadays

511
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: is remembered as the most ferocious conflict in Ohio Michigan history,

512
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: even worse than the college football rivalries. But this was

513
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: not the last time the states clash over their borders.

514
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: These folks have legitimate boundary issues. The precise location of

515
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: their land boundary was still a constant subject of contention

516
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: argument until nineteen fifteen. They had to have a new

517
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: government survey, and the governors celebrated the resolution by shaking

518
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: hands across the border. See and in nineteen sixty five

519
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 1: the lieutenant governors repeated the ceremony.

520
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: That's nice, like many hands across America thing hey, and

521
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: here will come full circle. You know, there were occasional

522
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: legal battles between the states up until nineteen seventy three,

523
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: when a Supreme Court ruling resolved any claims to the

524
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: waters of Eerie. Now those tensions, as historical tensions are

525
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: pretty much dealt with in those college football rivalries we

526
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: talked about at the top of the.

527
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: Show, the Toledo War. There you have it. So this

528
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: ends today's episode, but not our show. We would love

529
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: to hear some of your favorite stories of state rivalries

530
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: in the US, or you know, country rivalries, county province

531
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: rivalries anywhere throughout the world, because as we know, at

532
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: least here in the States, it's a huge ongoing issue

533
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: and every state has at least one other state that

534
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: they despise for one reason or another. You can let

535
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: us know on our email. We are ridiculous at iHeartRadio

536
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram and You

537
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: can find us, most importantly your fellow listeners on our

538
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians.

539
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can check us out individually on Instagram

540
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: if you like, follow our various exploits.

541
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: I am at embryonic insider. I am at Ben Bolin

542
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: with a lot of stuff on there that's probably gonna

543
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 1: ruin my political ambitions later in life.

544
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: Oh surely not, Ben, surely not. You're just a full

545
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: human person, very rich life experiences.

546
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: That's very kind. I, like many people do, try to

547
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: emulate Casey Pegram Oh, speaking of that guy, Hey, Casey,

548
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: thanks so much for, as always, saving the show. We'd

549
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: also like to thank Gabe, our research associate.

550
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: I would like to thank Alex Williams who composed our theme,

551
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: Christopher Hasiotis who is here in spirit, and Jonathan Stricklam

552
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 2: the Quister, and as usual, Ben Bolland thanks to you

553
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: for being a friend and all the other lyrics to

554
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: the Golden Girl theme that I will never never remember.

555
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: Why don't you ever remember it's a great song.

556
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: You said it wasn't that great a song, and it's

557
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: the full song is not great, But the TV version

558
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: just for the intro is spot off. Pretty heartwarming, especially

559
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: when paired with the you know clips of these women

560
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: and their anti It really does warm the cockles.

561
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna say this even though it's late and

562
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: we probably should have said it earlier. You know, it's

563
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: here in the US. Mother's Day happened this weekend, and

564
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: I just want to say thanks to all the moms listening. Yes,

565
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: thanks to everyone with the mom. And you know, if

566
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: you didn't get a chance, you didn't get a chance

567
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: to call her. This is maybe a week a week

568
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: late now that you're hearing this, but if you didn't

569
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: get a chance to say hello, just just give her

570
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: a ring, drop by and see her. We both hung out, well,

571
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: all three of us hung out with our moms recently

572
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: and had a heck of a time. No, my mom

573
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: even almost came to my improv show, which was a

574
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: weird flex Ben.

575
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: I would have come to your improv show as well

576
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: if I wasn't already entertaining my mom and daughter.

577
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: You know, and my daughter's ten.

578
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: I don't think the improv stuff you guys would have

579
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 2: don would have been quite age appropriate her. But very soon,

580
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: when she's I'm going to say thirteen, you can go

581
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: to our first improv show.

582
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: Okay, all of us listening now who have ever done

583
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: improv know that it can be it can be tiresome

584
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: to continually invite your friends to improv. So never feel,

585
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, we improvise enough together on the show, Noll.

586
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: Never feel obligated or anything other than invited to that

587
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of outside of workstick you know

588
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: what I mean, I do.

589
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: Indeed, we'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts

590
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

591
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows,