1 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. I'm care Price and this is 2 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: the story. It's been two months since Australia's first of 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: its kind social media ban went into effect on December tenth, 4 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. If you were under sixteen in Australia, 5 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: you could no longer create an account on TikTok x, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, 6 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Snapchat or threads, to name a few, and if you 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: had a profile, it was deactivated. Of course, there are 8 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: a lot of outstanding questions, including can Australia effectively enforce 9 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: this band? But no matter how airtight the law, my 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: guest today thinks it could have a powerful downstream effect. 11 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: More than anything, I think that what it does is 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: that it gives parents a thing to point to to say, hey, like, 13 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 2: you know, nobody else is on social media and therefore 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: you shouldn't be as well, which gets rid of one 15 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 2: of the big problems with kids on social media, which 16 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: is just that they feel like because everyone else is 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: on it, if they're not on it, they're going to 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: be socially isolated. 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: This is Jay Caspian King. He writes the fault Lines 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: newsletter for The New Yorker, and he recently wrote a 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: piece that caught my eye titled Americans won't ban kids 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: from social media? What can we do? Instead? I'll let 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Jay answer his own question. You wrote this article about 24 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: why you think America won't implement large scale social media 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: bands for kids very soon after the Australian band went 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: into effect, and before you launched into your argument, you 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: asked readers for the sake of the discussion, to agree 28 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: on three statements. What were those statements? 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: They were One, teenagers have First Amendment rights. Two, social 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: media has become the place where people, especially young people, 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: express their views. And three social media is very bad 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: for kids. 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: And what was the What is the question that you 34 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: set out to answer given these parameters? 35 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: Well, I think that right now, if you think about 36 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: American free speech precedent and free speech law, it's going 37 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 2: to be very hard to ban everything for everybody under 38 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: the age of sixteen like Australia has done. I mean, 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: I think that the Supreme Court has basically routinely held 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: that young people have freedom of speech. And it is 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 2: also routinely held that the social media platforms, even if 42 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: they are private, have some influence within the First Amendment 43 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: because they function as a public square. Right and so 44 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 2: basically say, everyone under the age of sixteen or seventeen, 45 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: or whatever age you want to put it at no 46 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: longer has access to the public square and can no 47 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: longer express their opinions. That's a huge free speech problem. 48 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: And I don't think that it would pass in this country. 49 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: I don't think that the court would uphold it, right, 50 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: I just don't. And so my thought was just I 51 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: have kids. I don't want them to be addicted to 52 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: social media. I don't want them to be on their 53 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: phones all day, right, and what do we do? 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: Right? 55 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: We can't ban it, So then what what can Americans 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 2: do to try and make it so that kids are 57 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 2: not on phones all day? That was a sort of 58 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this question for a while actually, 59 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: and like you know, it's all just based on my 60 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: own neurosis as a parent. 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: How many kids do you have? 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: I have two? 63 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: What are their ages? 64 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 2: They are eight and three, and so I'm sorry, nine 65 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: to three. And so it's right at the beginning for 66 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: the nine year old of having some kids who have Apple. 67 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 3: Watches and iPad. 68 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: They all have iPads but have started communicating via iPad. 69 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: I know that some of them text each other through iPad. 70 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: But you know, where I live in Berkeley, California, it 71 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: there is like a great social stigma around it, and 72 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: so the kids don't do it as much as they 73 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: might in other places. But yeah, I think once they 74 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: get to about twelve years old in middle school, then 75 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: it becomes quite ubiquitous. 76 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: So Australia has proven how far they're willing to go. 77 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: Is there like an American answer to how far we 78 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: are willing to go in order to protect kids from 79 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: social media if it's not a full out ban. 80 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that bannings phones in school is aboad 81 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: as far as we'll go, you know. And I think 82 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: that that's happening in a lot of districts in a 83 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: lot of states. And I think that within the next 84 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: five years it'll be very rare to find a school 85 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: district in America that allows kids to have phones in school. 86 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: I personally just think that that's positive. 87 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: You know. 88 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: I was a teacher when I was younger, and this 89 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 2: was before cell phones were completely ubiquitous, you know, And 90 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: when I talk to teacher friends and everything like that 91 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: with their school doesn't have a no phones policy, they 92 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: say that they spend like an inordinate amount of time 93 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 2: just taking phones away from kids, you know, And I 94 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 2: don't think that the teacher should be doing that. I 95 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: don't think that that's healthy for them. I don't think 96 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 2: it's healthy for the classroom. I don't think if parents 97 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: saw that type of behavior and they saw the teacher 98 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: just always just scrambling around taking phones away from kids, 99 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: that they would think that that was good either. And 100 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: so from that's that enforced my perspective a lot on 101 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: this right, like what is a good classroom? And I 102 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: think it's just very hard to make the argument that 103 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: having phones is good in the classroom. And so I 104 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: don't know, I guess I just think that if that's 105 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: the end of it, that almost every school district in 106 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: America doesn't have has a no cell phone policy, I 107 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: think that would be a very good start. 108 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: I think it's a huge start. I mean, I you, 109 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 1: you know, wrote this piece the case for banning children 110 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: from social media, and you compare social media to tobacco, 111 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: and you know, I'd like to hear a little bit 112 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: more from you, because I think a lot of people 113 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: would say, well, that's ridiculous, and I would say, no, 114 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense to me. This is something that 115 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: was sold to us. We were made addicted to we 116 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: could not quit. And while it wasn't necessarily killing us, 117 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: it is like, in fact more insidious because it's like 118 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 1: eroding the quality of what it means to be a person. 119 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's leading to all sorts of political 120 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: problems that we have, right, don't. I don't think that 121 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 2: the level of polarization that we have in this kind 122 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:03,559 Speaker 2: of tree would happen without everybody sitting on their phone 123 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: and ingesting the news all day through like social media accounts, right, 124 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 2: Like I mean, and I'm not even talking about stuff 125 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: like misinformation or whatever. There's always been misinformation, and it's 126 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: probably worse than it was before. But I just think 127 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: that it is the fact that you spend like four 128 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: to six hours a day reading about everything that is 129 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: happening in the world through some sort of preferred filter 130 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 2: that you have, right, and then you just get confirmed 131 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: further and further. I mean everybody does. This happens to 132 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: me too, but beyond that, just from like almost an 133 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: existential like human health perspective. And I do think this 134 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: is why I think that eventually this will change, but 135 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 2: I think it will just take a long time. Like 136 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: there's nobody other than three people I know maybe in 137 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: my entire life, who are happy with the amount of 138 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: time they spend on their phone. Everybody else. If you 139 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: ask them, what is the thing that you wish you 140 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: could change? The number one thing that they'll say is 141 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: I wish I wasn't on my stupid phone all the time, right, 142 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 2: Or I wish I wasn't staring at a screen all 143 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: the time. 144 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: Right, which makes it like a which makes it a 145 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: public health crisis, right. 146 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: But it's more just like, I guess, like the thing 147 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: that resonates me with me, the mouse, is just like, 148 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 2: can we just go out and talk to other people? 149 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: Can we function as normal human beings? And I think 150 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: that what happened was that during the pandemic, a whole 151 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 2: bunch of people really got sucked completely into a digital 152 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: type of life. And it's not their fault. Yeah, yeah, 153 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: that happened to me too. And I think amongst young 154 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: people it was intense. It was the most intense for 155 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: like people who are maybe middle to high school age 156 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: around that time. And I think that that generation is 157 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: having a lot of problems now because of it, right, 158 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: And and I think that it's such a crisis, and 159 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: we're starting to see the signs of it where people 160 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 2: are saying, well, the kids who are coming into college 161 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: right now can barely right or like they are they 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: have no interest in being there. 163 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: It's fine. There are a lot of kids who don't 164 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: like college. 165 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: I didn't like college when I went there, but like 166 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: I could read, and also like I was one of 167 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: four people. Now it's like there's like half the class 168 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: are people who are just like I don't even want 169 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: to be here. And also by the way, I can't read, 170 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: you know, like that's like a it's like a it 171 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: really is a crisis amongst young people right now. And 172 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: I think that I think that we just need to 173 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: figure out a way to unplug this machine right now. 174 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: And it's just so hard to figure out how to 175 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: do it, right, Like how do you actually do it? 176 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: Like Australia is going to do this thing. But one 177 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: of the interesting stats was that only like while six 178 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: seventy eighty percent of Australian parents were like, yeah, I 179 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: don't want my kid on the phone, only thirty percent 180 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 2: where like I'm going to actually enforce this law in 181 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: my household right right. 182 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 3: Right, So yeah, there's a problem of will here. 183 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's also the sort of thing where it 184 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: is a problem of will. But I was talking to 185 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: my friend about this last night, Like, you have the 186 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: smartest engineers in the world developing devices that need to 187 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: become ubiquitous in the way that people wanted us smoking 188 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: cigarettes all the time, and this is something that we 189 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: can do inside that is socially acceptable. That's our means 190 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: of communication. You know, you weren't calling people on a cigarette. 191 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: You weren't like talking to your loved ones on a cigarette. 192 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: And so in a way, the level of connectivity that 193 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: we have I just feel like has reached a point 194 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: of like unnecessary. Do I need to be in touch 195 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: with people this much? 196 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't know. 197 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: See a movie. 198 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 2: You see all these stats with young people now they 199 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: don't drink, they don't have relationships, they don't go out 200 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: with their friends at all anymore. Like the drinking part 201 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: of fine whatever, it's I don't think drinking is good 202 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 2: for you, you know. But yeah, the idea that certain 203 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 2: social rituals are now gone because people just sit around 204 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: online all the time. 205 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 3: I think that's horrible for society. 206 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: It's horrible for businesses, but it's mostly just horrible for 207 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 2: people's mentality because they feel like all these. 208 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 3: Digital experiences that. 209 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: They're having are edifying or that they're satisfying in some ways, 210 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,559 Speaker 2: and I think that they it just generally isn't right, Yeah, 211 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: and that it's hard to sustain anything when everything is 212 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: just on your phone and then you forget about it 213 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: because there's five thousand other things happening on your phone. 214 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: And yeah, I just hope that, like my general sense 215 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: of this is that the only thing that is going 216 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: to actually stop this is that we need to have 217 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 2: some sort of cultural change in the country that where 218 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: a whole bunch of people just say we're not going 219 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 2: to do this anymore. That's right, But people have been 220 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: saying that for ten years now, and we are just 221 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: getting more and more sucked into our phones. 222 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: Right. 223 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: In your article, you talk a little bit about why 224 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: the fight against you smoking was successful, Like what lessons 225 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: can we take from that success is we try to 226 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: kind of navigate phone addiction. 227 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: Well, I just think that at some point now that 228 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people, it's very clear 229 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: that this stuff is bad for kids, right, and even 230 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 2: there are a lot of stuff that's like, hey, maybe 231 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: some of these statistics about mental health and everything like 232 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: that are not what they seemed before, which I think 233 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: that some of the criticisms have been valid. But even 234 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: if you accept all that and you just flatly asked 235 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: the question, well, do you think it's good for the 236 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: kids to be on the phone, everyone will still say no, no, no, no, no, no, 237 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: it's not good. You know, I'm just disputing these specific stats. 238 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: So you have a country of people, at least within 239 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 2: the middle class and the upper middle class of parents 240 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: who have basically just said this is bad. 241 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 3: Right. 242 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 2: And one of the things that is very true about 243 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: American and has always been true about America, is that 244 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 2: when you're talking about children and parenting, uh, the conversation 245 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: is really just about the middle class and the upper 246 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: middle class, right, because like rich people. 247 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Who has time otherwise? 248 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also like rich people parenting it's just like, well, 249 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: you're fine, you're rich, like, you know, like there's never 250 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 2: been like a parenting trend that was like among the 251 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: rich because not that many people are rich, right, And 252 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 2: then with poor people, it's just like, well, you know, 253 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: like you're gonna like you have other problems, right, And 254 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: so like the discourse around parenting has always been a 255 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: middle class in an upper middle class parent discourse, and 256 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 2: it seems like that core audience has fully turned against 257 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: the idea that phones were helpful. Now, I remember when 258 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: I was in graduate school. This is twenty two years ago, 259 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 2: so it was a long time ago. I went to 260 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: Columbia and there's like this very expensive private school that 261 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,439 Speaker 2: was attached to Columbia that was run by the Columbia Teachers. 262 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 3: College, right, and oh yeah, thanks thanks. 263 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 264 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 2: And bank Street back then was basically saying we are 265 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 2: going to be the vanguard of technological et cetera, et cetera. 266 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: And in preschool, your kid is going to at a laptop. 267 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: That was me. That was my I went to private 268 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: school in New York City. That was I didn't go 269 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: to Bank Street, but we did a Bank Street method 270 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: and I had a laptop. 271 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 3: I had a laptop as a kid. 272 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: I had a laptop in third grade. 273 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So that's you. 274 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: So that was me, okay, And now I host a 275 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: tech podcast. 276 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it guess it worked. But it's like, oh, 277 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: I remember that and thinking it was cool at the time, right, 278 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, yeah, it must be. 279 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: I didn't have kids. I was twenty three years old. 280 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: But it was like, uh but I remember thinking like, oh, well, 281 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: that's like a thing and that makes sense, and you know, 282 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: the kids should be interfaced to the public, or even 283 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: like five years ago where it's like all these kids 284 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 2: should learn a code instead of something like that. 285 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 3: Right, none of that has any type of valance. I mean, 286 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: I think that people would would be would revolt. 287 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 2: I mean the way that you sell upper middle class 288 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 2: to wealthy private school preschool stuff is say, we don't 289 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: have a screen anywhere in the building, and that's what 290 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: we'll get parents to come, right and so they virtue 291 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: now right right like and I would buy into that too, 292 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: you know. I mean I send my kid to the 293 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: countriest preschool maybe in the country, you know, like it's 294 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: like everything was like, yeah, the kids are just gonna 295 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: dig irrigation ditches in the backyard and they're gonna and 296 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: we're just gonna put a bunch of photos of them 297 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: muddy and. 298 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 3: Like with shovels. I was like, this is great. 299 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: There's not a screen insight, right, So as long as 300 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: the aspirational idea of childhood now is one that is screenless, 301 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: then I do think that that is a very powerful 302 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: weapon in getting kids off of their phones. Now, the 303 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: problem is is that at some level and at some age, 304 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: you lose the fight anyway, right, And so as long 305 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: as you can push that fight higher, I think that's 306 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: the best way to do it. 307 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: And it should not be at age twelve, right, Like, 308 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: it shouldn't be that at age twelve every single kid 309 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 3: has a phone and they're all texting each other all 310 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: day and they're all in snapchat doing stuff and like 311 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 3: saying me and shit about each other. Like that's bad, right, So. 312 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: I do think that cultural pressure within that class of 313 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: people will probably lead to some change, but then once 314 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: they're sixteen, they just become like us. But the problem 315 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: is also us, right, The problem is that we're on 316 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: our phones all the time. 317 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: And so I don't know. I think it's just a 318 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: very difficult question. 319 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: You just have. 320 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: The best way we can do it right now is 321 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 3: just delay the inevitable. 322 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: At this point, after the break, the difference between TV 323 00:15:49,800 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: babysitters and iPad babysitters stay with us. So just going 324 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: back to the Australian social media ban, I'm curious, like nationally, 325 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: obviously we don't see this happening in the US, But 326 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: what about at the state level and how did those 327 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: efforts compare to Australia's push. 328 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: It's been very hard to enforce and it's been very 329 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: hard to get passed, right, So I don't think that 330 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: like basically it's like, uh, we're going to pass a 331 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: law and we're not going to enforce it, but we 332 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: hope that everyone abides by this law. I think that's 333 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: the best people can do right now. You know, here 334 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: in America, the tech companies obviously have a huge political influence, 335 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: especially right now, and I think that's something like I 336 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: don't know, like Elon Musk, for example, owned a social 337 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: media company, and I think that if you told if 338 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: the federal government was basically saying, hey, we're going to 339 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 2: just not have a decent portion of the kids who 340 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 2: use this type of thing on the platform anymore, then 341 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 2: he would object, right because it would cut his user 342 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: base down. And he has more political power than a 343 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: lot of people because of the system that we have 344 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: here in America, and he could get his way, right. 345 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: So I think something like Instagram for example, right, like 346 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: if you just said kitchen be on Instagram, I mean 347 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 2: Instagram is huge amongst kids, a platform like Snapchat is 348 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: probably mostly kids at this point, right, and so the 349 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: political influence that those companies have here in the United 350 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: States makes it really difficult. Now in Australia they have 351 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: less political influence because Facebook and Twitter, these are all 352 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 2: old names that don't exist anymore. I'm sorry, Snapchat, Meta mea. 353 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 2: They trying to distract us, right, They're not in Australia, 354 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 2: And so Australia can just do something like that here. 355 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: And then you asked where they have a ton of 356 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 2: political power, I think it'd be very difficult. 357 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I know we're kind of dipping into two 358 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: pools here. I think there's a difference between social media 359 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: and cell phones, even though I think for a lot 360 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: of kids a cell phone is social media. But in 361 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: any event, what I'm saying is that it does seem 362 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: like some young people believe that social media is bad 363 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: for them. Like I actually recently heard I don't know 364 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: if you've heard the trend in Malaysia where there's a 365 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: youth retirement home where people can just escape the digital 366 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: world for a month by living on a compound. And 367 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 1: then of course there's like the trend of none Girl Summer, 368 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: which was like an uptick in gen Z ladies checking 369 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: into convents to escape for. 370 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 3: A few months. 371 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: So, as someone who writes about this a lot, what 372 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: do you think has to happen Societ Italy for people 373 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: to really and because every no, there's nobody as to 374 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: your point, there's like nobody in my life who's like, 375 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: I need to use my phone more. What has to 376 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: happen to like change these social norms, like do people 377 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: need to go on to silent retreat? I mean, it 378 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: feels like everything that people are doing are so far 379 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: out of the realm of reality, like I'm going to 380 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: go on a silent retreat, or I'm going to brick 381 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: my phone, or I'm going to put my phone in 382 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: a locked box in my house. 383 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: So I think amongst the wealthy that this type of 384 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 2: stuff will become more common. Like, for example, there are 385 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: those light phones, right which people. 386 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: Do you use one? 387 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: No? 388 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 2: But I almost bought one, but it's like eight hundred 389 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 2: dollars and I was like, really expensive, Say, I don't want. 390 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: To buy a useless phone. 391 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 2: But I think that one of the things that when 392 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: I was talking to my friend about dumb phone. My 393 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: friend is quite rich and he was like you know, 394 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 2: he's like, you're not rich enough to have a dumb 395 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: one or to have a light phone. 396 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 3: He's like, that's the way that like people flex in 397 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 3: my world when they're super rich and they want to 398 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 3: show that, like you know, that they're so rich that 399 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 3: they don't even have to answer text messages. 400 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: Right, it does so like the digital form of biohacking. 401 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 402 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: Or it's like I think it's basically saying like I 403 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: don't have to respond to any emails ever, I don't 404 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: have to ever be on slack, right, like I'm the 405 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: king of the castle. Yeah, And within that group, I 406 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 2: think it's probably going to be quite popular. I think 407 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: that the problem is that you have a whole group 408 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: of people, and I think that this includes most of 409 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 2: the middle class that can't actually do their jobs without 410 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: having their phones. And so the number one thing that 411 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: I think would have to happen is that I think 412 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 2: that workplaces would have to install a different level of 413 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: expectation for response time and for connectivity and everything like that, right, 414 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: And I just have a hard time believing that these 415 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 2: workplaces will just go back and say, well, you don't 416 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: have to have a phone now, Right, there's a reason 417 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: why Google. When you go to Google, the first thing 418 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: they give you is like, uh, pixel phone. Right, It's 419 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: because they want to track every single thing that you do, 420 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 2: but be they also want. 421 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 3: To be able to be on the all times. 422 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so as long as those expectations are there, 423 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: like we're all just going to be addicted to the 424 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: phones because and it's like a workplace problem more than anything. 425 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: You wrote about deleting your social media from your phone 426 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: and a piece titled if you quit social media, will 427 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: you read more books? Did you read more books? 428 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: I did, but it was mostly because I was writing 429 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: a book and I needed to read a bunch of 430 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: books to do that. But in terms of like light, 431 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: you're not really you know, yeah, I was more productive, 432 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: Like I wrote the book very quickly. And I had 433 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: found like this happened because I had taken another social 434 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 2: media break a couple of years ago or three years ago, 435 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 2: and it was because my I had had another kid 436 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: and I was on paternity leave and I was like, 437 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: I don't want to sit on social media all the 438 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: time while. 439 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: This kid is you know, coming alive. 440 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 2: Becoming, yes, becoming like a small person. But like what 441 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 2: I found was that you know, I don't know. Like, 442 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: when you have a kid, you have a lot of downtime, right, 443 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 2: especially in the first three to six months when they 444 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 2: can't really do anything. And during that downtime, I like 445 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 2: wrote a whole screenplay, which I had never done before, 446 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, I was so productive. 447 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: But the reading part of it where I felt like 448 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 2: my brain would reconfigure itself and not just want this 449 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: like you know, social media stream, but would engage again. 450 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I wrote a novel. I used to be 451 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 2: very into you know, fiction and whatever like that. That 452 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: part didn't materialist. 453 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 3: I wish it had. 454 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: But just you wrote a successful novel I did. 455 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that was before social media, 456 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: Like that was like two thousand and nine. 457 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 3: I think I wrote. 458 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: True true, true, true, true true. I don't know how 459 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: people do it. I mean, I'm trying to write more. 460 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: This is more of a support session for social media 461 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: and phone addiction. It's just my phone too, it's not 462 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: even social media. I think it's important to parse the 463 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: two out. I think kids should not be on social media. 464 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: I think that's so weird. But I also think, like 465 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: if you don't raise kids with phones, they're like, dope. 466 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: I mean, their brains are going to develop differently. 467 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 3: I agree, I think so too. And I think. 468 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: I don't know nine year olds who are on social media, 469 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 2: so I can't really tell, but I do know what 470 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 2: it's like when I try and rip the iPad out 471 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: of my kid's hand, you know, right, And that is scary, right, 472 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 2: And I think for parents who work and who have jobs, 473 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 2: it's really difficult to not rely at least on the 474 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: iPad because it's a form of childcare, right. 475 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 476 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: So I just think we're in a tough spot because 477 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: like a lot of people are just like, well, I 478 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: don't have I mean, for me, it's quite fortunate where 479 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: I don't. 480 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, so I get to be at home 481 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 3: a lot. 482 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: But for people who are working job to jobs and 483 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: they have kids, they have to rely on these digital 484 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 2: projects to do a lot of the childcare right to 485 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 2: occupy their kids. And I just think that at some 486 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: point there is a difference between that and what we did, 487 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: or at least what I did when I was growing up, 488 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: which is just like sit in front of the television, right. 489 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: I do think it's different, right. 490 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: It is more taters, Yeah, because I was barely even 491 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: watching the television. 492 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: TV was not as addicting as social media and phones, right. 493 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: I don't think so at all, Like they could turn 494 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 2: the TV off and I couldn't sneak away and bring 495 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: the TV. 496 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: Exactly. Are any other countries following in Australia's footsteps that 497 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:40,959 Speaker 1: you know of? 498 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 3: Well, I don't think that any. 499 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: I think that there are other countries that are smaller 500 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 2: that have social media bands for kids, right, But I 501 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: think that there will be a movement, But I don't 502 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 2: think it will be based on whether or not Australia's 503 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: experiment is successful. I think it will based on other 504 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: factors like friendliness to the United States, for example. Right, 505 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: Like there might be bands because of reasons that are 506 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 2: like geopolitical and economic, but I imagine those countries will 507 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 2: just build their own social media networks. Like did you 508 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: see that europe is the European Union is thinking about 509 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: starting their own Twitter and it's called W I can't. 510 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: I can't. I was like, what are they going to 511 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 3: talk about over on W on dubs? 512 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: But the idea that it's gonna somehow be different, like 513 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: I just find so naive. 514 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,400 Speaker 1: All right, So I'm going to ask you a hypothetical question, right, 515 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: go ahead, if you were a lawmaker, what would your 516 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: ideal social media band look like? 517 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 2: So I am a free speech absolutist, and that was 518 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 2: you know, I don't think a band is a good idea. 519 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: I think that schools and having them in schools is 520 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 2: different because I think that the kids would still have 521 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: the opportunity to express themselves outside of school. 522 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: But I just think that the. 523 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: Downside, like it's like, the downsides of having that in 524 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 2: a school are enough where the civil liberties questions are 525 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: not relevant to me at least, right. It's not like 526 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: you've completely silenced the kid. You just said, Hey, just 527 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 2: like you can't, you know, do certain behaviors in certain places. 528 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: You can't do this behavior in this place, right. But 529 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 2: for me, I think that it would just be cultural, 530 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: you know, Like I think that it would be people 531 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 2: waking up and saying that this is bad. And that's 532 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: why I'm in such a bad space with this stuff 533 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 2: and why I feel like I, you know, write this 534 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: column over and over again because I don't have a 535 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 2: very satisfying answer to it, because I don't think that 536 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 2: a cultural shift will probably change that much. Like I said, 537 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: unless these workplaces stop demanding that everybody be on their 538 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 2: phone all and and I don't think that it will 539 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 2: really work unless there's stuff like I mean, people have 540 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 2: like there have been who suggested things like there needs 541 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: to be something like the Surgeon General's warning on social 542 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: media websites or whatever. 543 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 3: It's like, it's just not going to work, you know. 544 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: I think there needs to be Surgeon Generals warning on phones. 545 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: Like every time you pick it up, it says like 546 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: put me down best for you. 547 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: And it shows like it just like shows photos of me, 548 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: like walking into a poll in New York City while 549 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm testing. 550 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know. You could probably 551 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 3: code something like that into your own phone so that 552 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 3: you pick it up and then it starts showing your 553 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: you like walking into traffic or something like that. 554 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that. 555 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: The worst part of it, and the part that I 556 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: think about so deeply is the sense of urgency that 557 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: it is created. 558 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 3: I guess I think that it's. 559 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: I think it will accelerate for a little bit because 560 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: I think all these kids use AI for everything now, Yeah, 561 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 2: and that is concerning to me, but like it's like 562 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 2: concerning to me that you know, I live right near 563 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: the case is a UC Berkeley, which is a very 564 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 2: good school, very hard to get into obviously, and I 565 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 2: taught for a semester there, and I know a lot 566 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: of the professors there. And when professors started complaining at 567 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: the beginning about all their kids were cheating and using chetchibt, 568 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: I kind of I was like, Okay, well, we'll see 569 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: if this is real or not, you know, but at 570 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 2: this point, I think that is quite clear that a 571 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 2: large percentage of kids are just cheating through everything or 572 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: most of the stuff that they have to do. And 573 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 2: that also will make them more It'll make them more 574 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: dependent on this type of technology, right because like this 575 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: basically allow them to get through life without really having 576 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: to do much of anything. And so I think that's 577 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: the next thing I think people should be concerned about. 578 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit more like skeptical about this stuff 579 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: about like, oh, well, this kid is like thinks that 580 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: chetchibt is his best friend, and like, you know, it 581 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: led to this parasarg I'm just like, Okay, how many 582 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: of these kids are there. I'm sure there's some, but 583 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 2: I don't think there are many. But the cheating thing 584 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 2: I think is bad development, because I think that it 585 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: essentially has made these kids believe that any question that 586 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: they have in life, or any type of problem or 587 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: any type. 588 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 3: Of task that they're given can be solved, right. 589 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: They should just go straight to Claudo chatch Ept and 590 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 2: that that makes them even more dependent on their phone. 591 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Je, Really, I've had a fun 592 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: time talking about this. 593 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: No, thank you. 594 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: That's it for this We for tech Stuff. I'm care price. 595 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Eliza Dennis and Melissa Slaughter. 596 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Oswa Washan, Julian Nutter, 597 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope, and Katrina Noravel for iHeart Podcasts. 598 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 1: Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our 599 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: theme song. Please rate, review, and reach out to us 600 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. We want 601 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: to hear from you.